Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Episode 333 | What’s Not Being Said Might Be Costing You More Than You Think with Tracy Callahan

Transcript

Episode 333 | What’s Not Being Said Might Be Costing You More Than You Think with Tracy Callahan · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:01
  Intro: Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more? Then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Frederick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and her goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams.
• 0:47
  Now here's Devina.
• 0:49
  Davina: Hi, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. I'm your Jose, attorney Devina Frederick, founder of Wealthy Woman Lawyer. We help women law firm owners scale their law firm businesses to and through $1,000,000 without burning out in the process. My guest today on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast is Tracy Callahan. Tracy is the founder of Touchstone Legal Resources and a strategic adviser who has spent more than thirty years working behind the scenes of law firms.
• 1:18
  She built her expertise inside firms in Cleveland, Houston, and Denver before launching Touchstone Legal Resources in 2014 and has been supporting women attorneys and law firm partnerships across the country ever since. Today, works exclusively with women led law firm partnerships to surface what needs to be said but isn't, and to build a culture where candor strengthens both the firm and the relationships that sustain it. Through confidential partner conversations and comprehensive assessments, she helps managing partners name the unspoken assumptions, postponed conversations, and unclear boundaries that quietly erode even the most talented partnerships. At the heart of Tracy's work is a simple conviction. When women led partnerships thrive, the legal profession improves for women and families.
• 2:13
  Please join me in welcoming Tracy to the show. Hi, Tracy. It's great to see you today. I have introduced you, but I would love it if you would share a little bit more about how you serve your clients and how you got into doing this kind of work.
• 2:32
  Tracy: Well, I serve my clients now. I'm an advisor to women led law firms, but it started as I was a marketer and so I did recruiting and marketing and business development. I'm not an attorney, but I spent thirty years supporting lawyers and law firms. As things progressed, I wanted to have a more holistic relationship with my clients, so not being just a recruiter or just a marketer. So I started Touchstone Legal Resources in 2014 so I could be a one stop resource.
• 3:12
  It generally started when I was recruiter for a firm and then I would ask questions about what's the onboarding process, who's responsible for this person's success, how are projects going to be assigned, and they couldn't answer those questions. So we kind of like took the whole search off the table which allowed me to be kind of behind the scenes in how leadership was making decisions, and it kind of evolved from there. And so once I was able to kind of get behind the curtain, so to speak, and become the trusted advisor to the managing partner the managing partner's inner circle, then I was able to see patterns. And then those patterns I could take to the market. And so now I spend my days helping the leaders of women led law firms head off the issues, the patterns that I can see coming sooner rather than later.
• 4:08
  Davina: Yeah. So let's dig into that a little little bit deeper because I want to be clear on when you're talking about issues and helping women lawyers, women law firm owners. What kinds of things did you see that were coming up specifically when you were trying to do recruiting, you were trying to get them to hire people, and then there would be issues that would arise. Give me an example of some of those issues so we know what you're talking about.
• 4:39
  Tracy: Well, as an outsider, decisions were just taking far too long to happen. And it wasn't a matter of people being non responsive to an email. It's that I would ask what I thought was a fundamental question that couldn't be answered. Like, is responsible for this person's success? What is the path to partnership?
• 4:59
  And the questions that I thought would be fundamental and necessary for a job seeker, the hiring side couldn't answer. And also, when I would get candidate feedback, it was embarrassing to hear that the interviewing partners in the conference room are kind of negotiating between themselves about what the skill set was that they wanted for the person that they were hiring and the candidate is just like waiting for them to decide on the spot. Wow. So that turned into, okay, let's prepare everybody who is going to have contact. Whether it's the office manager or a senior associate or whomever, what is the path to partnership?
• 5:52
  What does a career path here look like? We needed to get everybody on the same page. So that's why I became a huge advocate of putting together a two to three page job description, not a posting, but get everything in one document and get everybody's buy in before and I say if I can find somebody who ticks 80% of these boxes, will you have a conversation with them? Rather than it being a four sentence or even a two paragraph buckshot approach. And so that's what I was seeing was it was taking far too long because they hadn't had the pre conversations.
• 6:34
  Davina: Right. Right. So your business has really grown beyond that, though. You started out kind of coming in at it from the standpoint of a recruiter helping partners. Also, we talking about, it's rare for me to see I mean, the reason I started my business is because it's rare to see women own law firms and women be partners.
• 6:53
  Over time that has changed. But back when I was starting my career, when I was in the in the nineties, you know, it was a lot of men who were in charge making these decisions. Were you working with men and women in law firms or are you working exclusively with women in law firms at that time?
• 7:07
  Tracy: When I first started, it was exclusively men.
• 7:12
  Davina: So were you seeing a difference between how men were handling this and how women were handling this? Or were the men also doing the same kind of thing?
• 7:22
  Tracy: I was seeing a difference in male communication patterns.
• 7:26
  Davina: Explain that to me.
• 7:27
  Tracy: What I was seeing was that in general partnerships founded by women with women put a premium on the interpersonal relationships that men did not necessarily do. And if so, that there would be a sense of avoiding topics or skirting issues or rather than jeopardize the relationship. Whereas I did not see those patterns in male dominated. They would be much more strident and male communication than female communication.
• 8:16
  Davina: So, can you give me an example of that? Think back to when you started like sure examples of how would a man handle something in terms of hiring like what you're talking about? How would a man handle that differently from a woman? Would they have committees that would be sitting in meetings trying to negotiate while the candidate was there or was it a different sort of thing?
• 8:41
  Tracy: I think it was more of a fiefdom. Just the managing partner or just the hiring partner would be in the conference room. That rather than work to build a consensus, rather than work to have all the answers that really work well for the firm and the other people who would be part of the hiring process have input, He would just arbitrarily make the decision. And so when the person would come back for a second or a third interview, it wasn't to really get other input. It was just so that the candidate could meet more people and so that other people could rubber stamp the decision of the managing partner.
• 9:20
  That's what I would see with, and that was very obvious particularly to female candidates what was happening is that there wasn't enough time to spend kind of off the record to find out what is this place really like. It was really because everybody would be kind of tight lipped during the second and the third interview.
• 9:44
  Davina: And so you would see with female people hiring female employers, you would probably see more of, trying trying to bring in more people into the hiring decision, but that also has a downside. And that downside is, well, you haven't figured it out before you came in front of the candidate.
• 10:10
  Tracy: Right. And there is this general sense of everybody kind of looking down the line, even if they're at a conference room table. Are we moving forward together? Are you good? Are you good?
• 10:19
  Have you been heard enough? Meeting being moved because somebody had a client meeting that ran late. And maybe we should reschedule because Stephanie needs to be a part of this discussion. And there was much more of a focus on people being heard. But the fact that it happened orally and on the spot was what was problematic.
• 10:49
  That's where I saw an opportunity. Let's do the pre work and then the interview process will go much more smoothly. Rather than only spending a handful of minutes on well we need somebody with three years of experience then what do we really need? Okay are we good? Now everybody has gotten a vote.
• 11:10
  Now whether or not Stephanie can make the interview is not fundamental to the process.
• 11:16
  Davina: Right. So your business has really expanded beyond that initial recruiting because at that time you're representing candidates and then you're coming in going, okay, we need to solve this problem before I could bring one of my candidates in. But you've moved beyond that. And now what you're doing is something a little bit different. Recognize that there's this sort of issues in kind of being afraid of hurting other people's feelings.
• 11:45
  So everybody has to be involved in the conversation and and get consensus. And then there's a lot of things that people, women aren't talking about with each other before they're moving forward. And this is what led you to do this. So tell me, you have a framework and I'd like for you to tell me the name of the framework and the different, I think there's four different steps in the framework and kind of let's touch on each of those so people can understand what your, framework is about your partnership windshield framework.
• 12:19
  Tracy: Yes. Thank you for that. So basically what I took was the dynamics that I witnessed as an outsider. I thought, well, must carry through to their dynamics with themselves. And so that's why I started the the partnership windshield framework.
• 12:38
  And that's based on the four U's, which are unexamined assumptions, uninitiated conversations, untracked contributions, and unclear authority.
• 12:51
  Davina: Oh, good. Good. Right, so I'm building each of these.
• 12:56
  Tracy: So unclear authority doesn't mean Devina makes all the decisions and nobody else gets. It's really more, I am an equity partner and my paralegal wants to take off on Friday. She's my paralegal. Can I decide? Or I have taken on the responsibility of working with the social media and marketing external vendor.
• 13:27
  And they have an opportunity and the decision to spend $5,000 needs to be made in the next day. Do I have the authority to do it? And I mean, there's so many decisions that are obvious, like are we going to sign that new lease? Of course, that's everybody, all hands on deck, 100% buy in. But it's this other stuff that starts this avalanche of DMs that adjust to so the authority just creating just the decision making metrics saves so much time.
• 14:11
  This is what an individual equity partner is not only allowed to do, but is expected to do. And then this is when we need to have a meeting and three out of four that's good enough and then and that is something that frees up so much time and so much brain space because somebody doesn't want to be the bottleneck but they also don't want to be somebody who's gone rogue. So that's one area.
• 14:40
  Davina: Also I think there's different areas of expertise. You might have one partner who's better say being the marketing partner and one who's better maybe with the HR kind of stuff and responsibilities. And I think where we get into issues is when people don't have that clear cut definition of who's, like you said, not only can do it, but is expected to do it. How do we divide up these? Have you noticed that there's a tipping point in the growth of the firm where this becomes an issue?
• 15:13
  So a lot of my clients are solos who are just transforming by hiring people. So they are the decision making authority. When you start getting partners, there is a point of growth where that becomes an issue where it's not an issue when it's just a single owner. So are you, when you're working with firms, give me an idea of the size of the firms and the number of partners, that kind of thing that we're talking about. Are we talking two partners, three or four partners?
• 15:46
  I mean, what what are you seeing?
• 15:48
  Tracy: Well, what I usually my, forte is group dynamics. So I'm usually three or more partners.
• 15:55
  Davina: Okay.
• 15:55
  Tracy: Not solos and not two, which is generally he said, she said, she said, she said type of thing. It's really more the group dynamic. So what I find is that one person has locked in that they are just a power biller. And what happens behind the scenes is to be determined. And they are rewarded for billing.
• 16:21
  And that there's somebody else who is basically going through life with a task basket and make sure that everything is handled and that person is headed toward burnout. That's where I see the tipping point. And then the third one's kind of clueless, you know, for want of a better
• 16:39
  Davina: I'll do whatever.
• 16:41
  Tracy: Yeah, right. Yeah, of course I'll show up or, you know, whatever you need me to do. So what I find is really helpful is to create a visual org chart. You know, who's dealing with the HR functions? Who's dealing with the hiring?
• 16:57
  And by just physically putting the same first initial, Dee, Davina is doing 80% of our 12 boxes here. Is that sustainable? That's like, okay. But if Devina is doing 80% of the work, but we're only compensating based on collections, this is not going to work either because you're rewarding billing but not the person who's keeping the boat afloat.
• 17:29
  Davina: Right.
• 17:30
  Tracy: So that prompts other conversations. So that's why I would say the tipping point is, and sometimes the dynamic is that the person doing 80 of the work has been hoarding. That's how they need to be needed. But the moment they see that it's not sustainable, people are like, oh, I really do have an interest in the technology aspect of it. I would like my name in that box.
• 17:57
  But once we say, okay, look at what we're dealing with, is there room? And also, there's also probably some vendor shakeup that needs to happen as well. So that's what I see is when there's just the Who's doing what and how are we being compensated for our contribution to the firm?
• 18:18
  Davina: Right. And also probably is somebody else better suited for this than me, right? A lot of times people wind up becoming the default for something, because they take it on or because they have a particular need on their team. And then, then they're like, well, wait a minute. Maybe I'm not the best person to do this.
• 18:38
  Maybe I don't have that level of interest, which brings me to the unexamined assumptions. Talk to me about the unexamined assumptions. What are some assumptions that you've encountered that people have that sort of prevent them from, you know, strengthening their partnership in a firm?
• 18:56
  Tracy: What I see often is that the definition of what a successful firm looks like. Some folks, maybe they were at a regional firm as colleagues and then they started their firm together. Maybe one wants it to be just like it's not that. They haven't really gotten to the, they're still rebounding and really haven't figured out what they want next, but they know what they don't want. Other people want a legacy.
• 19:28
  They want, they know from the start that they want something that's going to continue beyond them and are building it from the perspective of we're hiring the right people, we're building the right infrastructure, that this is going to be an employer in the community after I have retired. And then others are just like lifestyle. I want to make X number of dollars, and it's kind of like the panhandler with the cup out. Know, I need $100 a day. If it takes me an hour to get my $100 or it takes me twelve hours, when I get my $100 I'm done.
• 20:07
  And three people operating from three different perspectives are going to have a different view on their day.
• 20:18
  Davina: Not going to
• 20:19
  Tracy: successfully because grow the
• 20:24
  Davina: we can't even decide together what the destination is. Right. And how are we going to get there if we can't even decide together what the destination is? So give me talk to me a little bit about how you help people get on the same page with those to even just realize they are assuming different things and to articulate that to people. And is that uncomfortable?
• 20:49
  Do people perceive that to be an uncomfortable discussion, especially women who so wanna be on the same page with each other. And then you're kind of peeling back the layers and revealing to them that, oh, you all have different opinions. What is the conversation like with that
• 21:07
  Tracy: Well, starts one on one and it starts with me saying something is not working smoothly here. Something feels off. That's why you've hired me. So my process is to have one on one conversations with each stakeholder. And the first conversation is with the person who's my liaison.
• 21:28
  And they talk to me for ninety minutes as though the entity of the firm had its own voice. Not from their perspective, but why were you founded? Why are you where you are? As though the firm could talk. Then I speak individually to the other stakeholders, and then that first one is also the last conversation I have.
• 21:52
  But I just go in from lots of questions and curiosity. Help me understand. Help me understand is a big question. I love to talk to people when they're walking on Saturday mornings or something like that. Help me understand how a management committee meeting goes.
• 22:09
  Oh, it kind of sounds like it's more of a reunion and you're catching up on how the kids are doing at school rather than driving the firm. Do you have an agenda? How would you feel if there was an agenda? It's question, question, question. And then when something comes up, for example, say there are four partners and three generally view the world the same and then there's one that views things differently, My question is not try to make that fourth drink the Kool Aid and be like the first three, but what do we have here?
• 22:44
  Is she the canary in the coal mine seeing things that otherswhy is she always questioning and being difficult? Or is she a jerk? Or maybe now that they've been practicing law together for a few years, what she views as successful firm or what her practice needs isn't congruent, so she's just generally prickly. So when I'm talking with that person, I'm going to begin to see how is she reacting, coaching her on some phrases, and that type of thing. So all of this comes I have a lot of information before I put together my report that includes templates and prioritized suggestions.
• 23:29
  Then I give an oral book report and I'll be I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I always put something in there that I know is going to create a little bit of a fuss immediately. Now I can see because we're all on Zoom together who retreats, how they fight. All of a sudden I have a petri dish of what I'm actually dealing with. Then we work through that issue and now I can see before I've seen it, heard it in a vacuum, now I've witnessed it, and now we do some coaching beyond that for implementation.
• 24:06
  Davina: Yeah. Do you, I can imagine that this is really, can really shake some people. Yes. Have you had situations where people realize this is not a good fit for me or this is not a good fit for other people or these kinds of things?
• 24:27
  Tracy: Yes. And so when I say that this can be, you know, this is work and it can be fixed, yes, the answer can be that protect the friendships, the relationships, the best solution is for the person to leave and I help with that. What does that look like? The whole idea is as long as it is what benefits the firm and what benefits the relationships. If those two things everybody keeps top of mind, you can work through anything.
• 25:00
  And so yes, when somebody is given permission to take a deep sigh and say, I still want to travel with these folks, I still want to have girls night out, but I don't want to practice or my, I do criminal defense and everybody else does I something am different. My practice needs different social media outreach. I need different things, but I've been putting the friendships ahead of it and allowed myself to be miserable in the process. So yes, there are tears. This is hard work because things have been, the relationships have been so cocooned that once there's a crack It's an explosion.
• 25:52
  Davina: I can imagine. I can imagine. And one of the things I've seen in working with women law firm owners through the years is a lot of times they'll consider partnership most of the time when when a woman law firm owner is saying, I'm thinking about bringing in a partner, they are thinking about it in terms of having emotional support for decision making. They're not thinking about it in terms of, financial, benefit or, you know, some other business reason. They're thinking about it and they don't really closely examine that.
• 26:30
  But in talking with them, I can figure out that what they're looking for is really, I want somebody it it's hard to make hard decisions. It's hard to make business decisions. I don't I don't have experience in that. I've never done it before. I'm a lawyer and, you know, and so therefore I'm gonna bring in a partner, a girlfriend, somebody from law school, and they're gonna help me make business decision.
• 26:55
  I'm gonna share the emotional burden. And they'll often put it in terms of, well, you know, we'll pay expenses and that kind of thing. But they really it's really an emotional burden of sharing these. And I think a lot of times, female partnerships are formed that way. I don't know if male partnerships are formed that way, but I I definitely know that a lot of female partnerships are formed that way.
• 27:16
  And then I can imagine going down the road a few years and growing and changing as a person and suddenly looking and going, this I'm not comfortable in this anymore. This is not what I expected or not what I wanted because of the foundation for the partnership to begin with. Have you noticed that with women or do you have you had a different experience than that or does that come to the surface in any of your conversations?
• 27:42
  Tracy: Well, agree with you completely that there is a different approach to who they decide to team with and how long they'll tolerate being misaligned. And so whether, you know, by the time I get in there, it's time to just peel everything back and say, okay, no matter what you intended, here we are in What 2020
• 28:12
  Davina: it is now, right?
• 28:13
  Tracy: What are we dealing with? And again, so I think for me, just being curious, curious, how do you know you had a good day? How would you feel if you're, you know, paralegal who seems to be a source of irritation to everyone were to not be a source of irritation anymore? How would that feel? So there's kind of like the woo woo aspect, but there's an awful lot of like, let's look in the future when this problem is gone.
• 28:48
  Now let's look to see where we are now. Can we get there together? And what needs to change? But I do think that just being crystal clear about where you are in the moment is imperative because it's kind of like when you first start dating. It's all about possibilities and potential.
• 29:13
  And now we're not dating anymore. Now your decisions impact my day, impact my bank account, impact my clients. But I still want to go on family vacations with you. How do we see where we are and do this in a way that's filled with warmth and respect?
• 29:36
  Davina: It's so interesting because I had a partner for a brief period. I started my own law firm and then I brought in a partner and she was somebody I went to law school with and we were friends, new friends, but friends. And we were both very excited, but that very thing happened where there was somebody that she wanted to hire, she did hire. And it wasn't very long before I recognized there was a problem with this person, but she was really, she really liked her, but I recognized she was causing a problem in the firm because she was a very toxic sort of person, stirring up gossip, things like that. And other things happen.
• 30:16
  So we did not address that because I wound up leaving the firm at some point before we addressed that. But it was one of the little cuts, you know, one of that death by a thousand cuts. It was one of the little cuts, not because I never talked to my partner about it and said, you know, she's really got to go. Like, it's really not working. And I understand from, you know, as a woman saying I was I was reluctant to discuss that I was the senior partner in the firm.
• 30:46
  It was my firm. I brought her in. And still I was like, you know, I wanted her to be happy. I wanted her to have the people that she wanted. I wanted to be fair.
• 30:55
  And I think that often happens a lot with women is not of just going, well, maybe it's me. Maybe it's me and I need to give a little compromise, that kind of thing. And I can envision the two of us going I mean, we were really clear at the beginning about a lot of things. We had a wonderful partnership agreement and we ended on great terms. But I could see if we had stayed in business for years that there probably would have been a lot of conversations that we did not have that we probably should have, or that would have come up, out as a result of a blow up or something, you know?
• 31:35
  So you talk about in your framework uninitiated conversations. Tell me why you think women are reluctant to initiate conversations with I mean, these are people that, like you said, they like to go on vacation with, and they like to be friends with, and they like to work with. Why is it that it seems so hard to have those conversations
• 31:57
  Tracy: to educate Yeah. And frankly, Devina, what's human nature and what's not, I don't know. But I think once it's a reactive conversation that you're having, it's much more difficult than to have a proactive conversation. And I think, know, an anticipatory conversation. I really firmly believe that the sooner everybody views it, that what is in the best interest of the firm makes having those conversations much easier.
• 32:34
  What does the firm need from us in terms of streamlining processes, not getting forty five minutes worth of DMs about a $500 expenditure? What does the firm need? And then it's not a handful of people vying for personal power or, you know, you really can kind of sit back. So I think that the uninitiated conversations scenario comes when it's individuals feeling that they either don't want to step on toes, they don't want to be viewed as difficult, but I really do think that that fades away immediately when it you're not a martyr, but it's not about you.
• 33:27
  Davina: Right. Right. The the paralegal scenario, working with women law firm owners through the years as they've grown their law firms, it's it comes up over and over again because often they'll start out with somebody. This is my right hand person. She was with me from the beginning.
• 33:43
  And then as the firm grows and the owner of the firm starts hiring other people, I've often seen that right hand person, a legal assistant, paralegal become, what I say is they're not able to rise to your level of vibration. There some of them can go with you and some of them can't. A lot of them can't because they it was you and them. And now they view these people coming in as people who are trying to get between you and them. And so oftentimes they have to make the hard decision of letting that paralegal go or legal assistant go or that person will become so upset or angry or unfulfilled, dissatisfied, whatever that they'll quit.
• 34:25
  And, but this is something that is really hard. I've seen a lot of women law firm owners who just can't make the decision to fire them. Usually what happens is things change so much that the person winds up quitting and that solves that problem for them because it's so uncomfortable. So I can really see that in in a partnership, how that can really become a problem. Here's somebody who's been loyal to me, I feel I owe them the loyalty.
• 34:51
  And then you've got partners going, no, you owe me the loyalty. And this person is disruptive and other members of the team don't like them, don't like their attitude or whatever, whatever. And I'm sure there's so many scenarios like that where there are, you know, my habits, my way of doing it, case management system. I don't want get a new case management system, you know, because I like working the old way. What are some uninitiated conversations that you've seen that people have initiated that kind of stand out to you?
• 35:29
  Tracy: Well, do. I want to go back to the paralegal thing. One thing I feel strongly about is if somebody wants to hire, quote, their paralegal, that paralegal should be on more than one attorney's desk.
• 35:42
  Davina: Interesting.
• 35:42
  Tracy: And that way, that there's an outside perspective that you don't allow teams to be that solid from the jump. That would be my 2¢. But other uninitiated conversations would be assuming everybody's on the same page about hiring an associate and what that training looks like, how the person will be paid, how junior they should be. I think everybody assumes that the first hire should probably be about how they were hired and not necessarily look at it from the nitty gritty needs of the firm. Are they going to hire a recent grad?
• 36:26
  So I think those are uninitiated conversations, particularly when you don't go through that exercise of putting together a thorough job description. Everybody assumes that they probably went to the local law school and probably be a young woman like them. But beyond that, does the person write well? Do they take initiative? Do they want somebody that they're going to have a client facing role?
• 36:51
  How are projects going to be assigned? I think those are types of things where they just assume it'll work out. If you've got Yes. Very common
• 37:02
  Davina: would be a huge thing because I'm just going to assume that, you know, they'll I was thrown to the wolves at the firm I worked in. I assumed that they'll just going to come in and be thrown to the wolves the same way I was and figure it out. I'll build the net on the way down, you know, like I had to. Right? I'm sure you have some who have that and then you have other people who say, no, no, we have to have this, that and the other.
• 37:26
  I would imagine the more we have kind of generational divides, the more that that would come up. Older attorneys who had to, you know, struggle to get where even to be a woman in a firm, in a law firm, we're gonna view things differently than people who, you know, maybe younger who say, no, this is what we should expect to pay people. And this is what we should, you know, they shouldn't be required to do this and they need more time off and that kind of stuff. You had any of those conversations come up, intergenerational sorts of things?
• 38:00
  Tracy: Yes, and I think that's where we need to know about what is the successful future of the firm? If you're fundamentally viewing this fourth year as a cog, then you hire differently than if you view, is this somebody who is going to sit at the big table and I'm going to want to hand the keys to the castle to in twenty five years? There's a different level of commitment. And again, back to the what does the firm need from us? If you just need a body for two years, then hire somebody who's fully trained and don't be disappointed when they leave because they don't see themselves in the future of the firm.
• 38:38
  So to your point, absolutely yes.
• 38:41
  Davina: Yeah, I often tell my clients if you don't create a career path in your firm for your attorneys, for your paralegals, for your whoever you hire, right? They are gonna look for a career path outside of your firm. And that's really challenging for solos who like, I have no vision of sharing my firm, even though I'm gonna hire and develop a team of associates. There has to be thought one day that there's gonna come a day I'm either gonna wanna sell it or a day that I'm gonna wanna retire or not work as much or travel more. And we need leaders in those positions.
• 39:14
  So how are you gonna create a career path for people? Have you worked with maybe a couple of partners who are struggling with bringing other people up into partnership? What kinds of things do you see there?
• 39:30
  Tracy: Well, I see a common scenario is somebody who is very successful, a woman, first tier litigator, let's say medical malpractice defense and has practiced for fifteen years with the same group. And maybe they've gone to different firms, but now they have their own firm. But when all is said and done, she's the rainmaker. You know, it's not her name on the door, you know, but and everybody else has the opportunity to step up, but the client relationship to hers, it with the team, but she wants to retire. Retire, but she's talked about retirement for five years and when is it going to happen?
• 40:23
  Until there's a, I'm going to retire on 06/30/2031. Do you want to be here when I'm gone? If so, in what capacity? Do Does one person want to fill her shoes? Maybe now this firm is going to be led by a trio that between the three of them become one.
• 40:50
  It's a three piece puzzle. So I mean, I think that that's when I have good conversations because there's a built in filter when she says, do you want this? They all say yes. They say yes because they adore her, because they want their job, but they might not necessarily want that. But when they talk to me, they might say, I'd really like to be a judge.
• 41:20
  I don't want to go to another firm, but this is not my forever place. Well, that's important to know. Or I want to be a litigator. I want to have the client experience firsthand, but I don't want to be first chair, but I feel I'm being forced.
• 41:39
  Davina: Who else is going do it?
• 41:41
  Tracy: Equity means first chair, and if I don't want it, that means my only option is to leave, either be miserable or leave. So those, I mean, there's a lot of scenarios.
• 41:52
  Davina: I've dealt with a number of clients who through the years who have older male partners. So either a father or either just a colleague that hired them when they were an associate and now they want to retire, but they have no idea how to lead the conversation and the up and coming, you know, the lawyer down who started as associate who's now, you know, sort of gets thrown into the thrown to the wolves and sort of has to figure this out. They have to figure out how to have a conversation with a father figure, even if it's not their father and say, well, what is your plan? And usually what I'm seeing with the senior partners in my case, they've all been men, is there is a Well, actually there are some women too. Some of my clients through the years have said, I need to step away.
• 42:47
  There's a time, but there's a reluctance to say it's today. It's today or it's tomorrow, or it's this date. It's always at some point I may. And even when you have people who are in their seventies or eighties, they're going, well, you know, they don't they're not really clear because they don't want to be thrown out to pasture. Right?
• 43:07
  And it can be a really difficult, conversation to have to talk with somebody who's been your mentor, who's been a mother figure or father figure and say, you know, what is your what are you doing without feeling like you're pushing them out the door?
• 43:23
  Tracy: Yes. I think, mean, what does the firm need from you? What does your family need from you? What do you need from you? And I must admit, I suggest that be part of the firm culture to start having that conversation at age 55.
• 43:39
  Congratulations, you're 55. What are your thoughts? And don't wait until somebody's got their walker in the corner. But that's an optimal scenario.
• 43:47
  Davina: But they say that old attorneys don't retire. We just die at her desk.
• 43:53
  Tracy: I can't tell you how many retirement parties I've been to, and then six months later, they come back to work. They have a little paralegal zone. They don't pull a paycheck, but they're back at the office.
• 44:04
  Davina: One of my mentors, was an older man and he was, he retired and he came back to work. He was just going to take a few clients that were, you know, that they needed help with. And the next thing you know, he was back full time. And then finally, a couple years later, he says, I quit. He said, I tried to retire, and it didn't work.
• 44:25
  And I, you know, got sucked back in. So I could see that happening on both sides. I want to touch on before we end, I want to talk about untracked contributions because I think that's a big one. This idea that, and you touched on it earlier, this idea that people are first of all, women are always notorious for doing silent labor anyway. Right?
• 44:49
  So in our oftentimes you'll see the mother is the one that is doing all the mental load for organizing the family with the children and mother-in-law gets a gift card for a birthday, and we're all going to go here for dinner. There's all this mental load, even if they've hired help to help them. I do think that's changing. I'm starting to see a lot of women who have partners who are, you know, it's becoming more of a parental thing. But I do believe that, you know, there are, women are kind of notorious for doing labor and expecting other people to notice it.
• 45:30
  Tracy: I agree. Not
• 45:31
  Davina: saying anything. So tell me a little bit about some scenarios you've experienced with the, untracked contributions.
• 45:40
  Tracy: Well, yes, and I agree. What I'm really focused on is, let's say you have a group of attorneys who practice together at a firm, and now they've started their own firm, and they don't want to track non billable time. They don't want to have to justify their existence like they did when they were senior associates at the other place. But then it gets to the point where was Lisa really dealing with the website on Tuesday or did she get in a hot yoga class? Mean it kind of gets to the point where you're asking for trust without backing it up.
• 46:22
  So what I'm talking about is if somebody is dealing with an HR issue on a Saturday morning or updating the handbook or something like that, that time will benefit the firm and it needs to be captured. And whether it's So that's what I'm talking about, that there's somebody who made sure that those business cards got printed. There's somebody that dealt with the angry paralegal because she has to cover for the receptionist again. There is somebody that just generally goes around with the task basket that makes sure that nothing hits the floor. That person is headed for burnout if the culture is not encouraged that she capture the time.
• 47:10
  She does things that the other partners don't even know ever happened, don't even know what it's like to run the business. And so that's where I highly recommend. You don't have to be super detailed about it, but if your colleague is billing eighteen hundred hours a year and you're only billing twelve 100 because you spent another thousand on the litany I just described, that's not fair. Now you're apologizing for not billing on top of doing all the stuff that goes with the title of managing partner without getting the title of managing partner. I was in that
• 47:53
  Davina: position because I was running the firm and I was doing all the administrative aspects of the firm, sending out the bills, doing all that, plus rate making, plus doing litigation. But my partner had to do more of the litigation and we had somebody in the office stir up and say to her, hey, you're doing more work than she is. And it was like, Well, no, I'm doing all these other activities, you know, where I'm working extra. And so I've been in that situation and I've also, you know, I see that happen even with solo women who are growing a firm, they're becoming the CEO of the firm. They have a lot of associates working for them.
• 48:38
  And they're going, well, what is the boss doing now? Because, you know, I'm here working and they're not working. And it's like, well, now they're paying you to work on that because they're doing all these things you don't know behind the scenes to make things happen. To make sure you get the benefits that they promised, to make sure you get all of these sort of things, right? So it is definitely a part of the, as a firm grows and gets larger, it definitely becomes a, it is a thing.
• 49:08
  And I do think that one of the issues that women have is that we don't say, well, I did this, or I did this extra thing, or I did this because we don't want to seem like we're going, you know, well, I did these extra things. You should thank me or pay attention to me. We just, you know, we do it as because we care and we want to contribute. And so we take this sort of thing that we do in our family and we put it in our business.
• 49:33
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 49:34
  Davina: Right? Yes. Because as a mother, you don't go, well, you know, I made your lunch this morning and I made your breakfast and I was up with you all night last night where you're throwing up. You should appreciate me. So like, do that.
• 49:46
  But I think we take it into our business, that same behavior and say, everybody will just notice.
• 49:52
  Tracy: Right. And that's why I think, you know, everybody else has a job description. What does a 100% contributing equity partner look like at your firm? And maybe the definition for you is different from the person next door to you. And maybe yours does involve more commitment to bar activities and such.
• 50:11
  But if you're doing your part and they're doing their part, the firm is benefiting, that But I think that you need to get buy in, again, proactively rather than reacting to the whispers.
• 50:26
  Davina: Right, right. I've worked for a large law firm before I became an attorney. I was in marketing and these were mostly male. I mean, were some women who worked there, but the white male dominant firm. And it was interesting because they struggled with the partnership piece.
• 50:45
  They had 50 partners, but they had rainmakers and then they had those that they were trying to make rainmakers who did not have the skill and ability to be rainmakers. So there's always this sort of tug of war about who's you know, do do you have to be a rainmaker to be valuable? And I think ultimately they came to the conclusion there were some people who are rainmakers and some who aren't, and the ones who aren't are just as valuable as the rainmakers because they're there managing teams, making sure work is getting done or whatever it is. Right? So they found they had to find each partner's individual strength, but they had to be open and have conversations about it and make decisions about it.
• 51:23
  But what they were so large, they did everything by committee. So you were assigned, you had to be on certain committees. And that's sort of how they were able to define the value, what your contribution was outside of just billing hours. So I thought it was interesting.
• 51:39
  Tracy: They had the discussions.
• 51:40
  Davina: Yes, they did. And I'm sure it's a lot different. I will say this, having worked with men in that environment, I do know that you know, a lot of people think, oh, women are more sensitive than men. But I will tell you in those environments, had conversations with partners and they would get just as sensitive or upset or whatever as women do. I think it's really just a perception that we have of how men are going to handle a thing versus how women are going to handle a thing.
• 52:17
  And it may be that men are putting themselves out there to look like they're handling something in a certain way, but you go behind the scenes, you're going to hear the sensitivity and the upset or whatever. I've seen that in male attorneys I've worked with as their coach and also in that type of environment. You know?
• 52:37
  Tracy: I'm sure you have. I'm sure the stories you could tell.
• 52:41
  Davina: Well, think it's important to say that because I think a lot of times women are labeled as being, weird this way, right? And men are this way. And I think that all human beings have feelings, resentments, discord, and just the way we present to other people, what we allow other people to see may be different. But it's not really that men and women are that different in terms of how they feel about a thing. It's just in how we might show up.
• 53:14
  Tracy: Yes, I agree. And I just work with women attorneys because I choose to. There's plenty of law firms. I really want to make the profession better for women and families. That's where I feel like my time is best spent.
• 53:31
  Davina: Yeah, that's my saying with Wealthy Woman Lawyer, it's really about, for me, I looked around having worked in male dominated businesses in my corporate life, I looked around and said, I became an attorney, what's missing here? And there wasn't that support for me as a woman law firm owner. There was nothing specific for women in leadership positions. And women in leadership positions have to deal with different perceptions than men in leadership positions. Oftentimes, if you are the boss of other women, it is still a thing that women will look at their woman boss and say, Who do you think you are?
• 54:11
  You're no better than me. Even if they don't say it out loud. Whereas if were a man telling them to do something, they would just do it right away. And so there are a lot of challenges that women have. I think all, you know, women need, we need all the support we can get in growing our businesses and running our businesses.
• 54:28
  So I think it's noble work and I love it. And I love the opportunity to get to work. I'm sure your clients like mine are just some of the most intelligent, interesting and fascinating people to have accomplished what they've accomplished.
• 54:46
  Tracy: Yeah, I agree. I agree. We're both doing really important work.
• 54:50
  Davina: Yeah. Well, Tracy, thanks so much for being here and having this conversation with me. I've enjoyed it so much. I love talking with other women in the woman law firm owner space, and I thank you for being here and sharing with my audience.
• 55:03
  Tracy: Thank you, Devina. I love your podcast. Keep doing what you're doing. It's so important.
• 55:08
  Davina: Thank you.
• 55:11
  Intro: If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in your business and your life, then you'll want to visit us at wealthywomanlawyer.com to learn more about how we help our clients create wealth generating law firms with ease.