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Workplace Discrimination: How Mothers Can Fight Back for Justice · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Shy away from the real talk?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show, excited to have a very, very special guest talking to me about her experiences of taking her employer to an employment tribunal representing herself and winning.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: So I'm delighted to welcome Nicola Hines to the podcast, who is going to be talking about her experience working for the company Mighty and what brought about the discrimination case and how she went through that employment tribunal, and also now what she's doing afterwards to support other people that are taking their employers to tribunal.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: But I think this is going to be a really helpful episode for anybody that is experiencing discrimination in the workplace or, if you've got a friend that is experiencing it, um, definitely an episode worth forwarding to them.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Um.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much, nicola, for joining me.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I'm really um excited to um, you know, to learn more about the process, because I know it's going to be so helpful for so many people, because we all know that 65,000 women are pushed out of the workplace per year.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: You know it's a terrifying figure.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: So I know that this episode is going to be so valuable just to empower other people with the knowledge about what they can and can't do and really what's possible.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: So talk us through your experience then, if you want, if you wouldn't mind, rewind to maybe you know what it was like before the discrimination took place at your employer.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: So I'd worked in the private security industry pretty much from the age of 18.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: It was, it was my career.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: I'd built, built my career up in that industry.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: I'd gone from you know boots on the ground position up into senior management.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: In total I'd been with the same client for 12 the future and pretty much sort of represented women in the security industry.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Well, as we know, the security industry is quite male-dominated.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I was going to say yeah, Okay.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, so pretty much, you know, enjoyed my working environment, enjoyed building up that career.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: My eldest, who's now 16, you know I had him at the beginning of that career and sort of worked really hard, you know, just to show mums that you know you can go out and you can have a full time job and you can have a career out of it as well, and you can have a full-time job and you can have a career out of it as well.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: So, fast forward to 2020, and we all know that's you know, when the pandemic came about and it was a difficult time for many individuals, employees and employers you know it brought about a lot of uncertainties.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I was fortunate, or we was fortunate as a family, to discover that we was pregnant after such a big gap of 12 years between our first um and uh.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: That news, you know, sort of came at the time that you know we'd gone into lockdown and you know I was convinced that I had Covid, you know, with the early pregnancy symptoms, um, but no little bundle of joy was uh starting his journey inside me and um, it was uh at a time, obviously within my uh work environment where there was a lot of unknowns.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, covid had sort of put the spanner in the works for for a few of us, and I was um used to traveling the breadth of the uk as a, as an account manager, and we were now working from home.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, so, you know, finding your feet working from home, slightly different environment, different approaches Shortly after the announcement of my pregnancy, that is when things started to take a bit of a turn.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: At the time, was I fully aware that these things that were happening formed part of the discrimination claim that I would later bring?
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Uh, no, I didn't.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, it's, it's what I get asked this question often uh, when did it start?
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't answer that question because in my head I have a perception of how things were great before the pregnancy announcement and then how I can't really pick out any positives following the pregnancy announcement.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: So in my head, it started the moment I announced my pregnancy.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, and it know, in terms of an employment tribunal, you do have to be able to give a definitive timeline in terms of when did this discrimination start, and it's not always obvious until sort of after after the event.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: You know, some forms of discrimination can be, quite, you know, covert.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: It could be really subtle.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: It could be dressed up in all sorts of anecdotes of you know, of pretense in it being designed to help you when actually it's hindering you.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Um retrospectively, because at the time I didn't quite recognize it as as a continuing pattern and this is where it started, but was um following the my pregnancy announcement, I was heavily persuaded to take on a more administrative role within okay so, having been operational for 10, 12 years, um administration, you know, wasn't wasn't in my future plans.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: It wasn't really where I wanted to progress and it would have taken me away from um the route that I really wanted to take within the operational uh side of the business.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: Um, and there were comments that were used.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say how, because you said it's quite, quite subtle and it comes across as they're trying to be nice but actually they're hindering you.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: So how was that then broached to you, that there was a different role that they'd like you to do?
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: So this role came out of nowhere and it was administrative led.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: And the comments that were sort of made, you know, on the face of it, you think, oh, they're just looking out for my, you know my well-being, um, and, and they're doing this for me.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: But the comments that were that were made were um, you don't want to be up and down the motorway with a new baby at home.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: You know, this role would be perfect for you.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Now your circumstances have changed, you know.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: So, more or less suggesting that this role was created for my current circumstances, okay, and at the time you you try and take things you know with good faith, but retrospectively, once other things have happened, you go back to that event and go actually, what was going on here?
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Um, because prior to pregnancy announcement, operations were was my world, no issues, nobody wanted me out of that area, nobody wanted to move me into admin.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: But all of a sudden you announce you're pregnant and now, apparently, moving you into an admin role as opposed to operations is is better for you and this is while you were pregnant, or was this on your return?
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: this is whilst I was pregnant, yeah, so shortly after the announcement.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, then you think retrospectively, who was it really better for?
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Was it better for me or was it better for you?
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Um, so that's kind of where I've pinpointed my uh journey with pregnancy discrimination actually started.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think so.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Um, and then you know, there was a number of things that followed, um, where I ended up being moved into this role.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Um, whether did you have to take a pay cut?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: No, there was no pay cut.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: There was no pay increase either.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: In terms of you know, if this was a role that was designed to progress you know it somewhat, I would say was a sideward role.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, I would say yeah.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Which was terminology used within the Employment Tribunal, although it was, you know, sort of sold to me as a promotion um.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: So, you know, finding myself in an unfamiliar um role, um, I felt like there was very little support um in helping me uh navigate a new area of the business, and you know such a vulnerable time being pregnant as well, you know you do fear.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: There is a lot of fear when you are pregnant.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: Um, you fear informing you and your employer first and foremost, you fear the changes that come evidently.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: Mine came quite quickly after, after the uh, the announcement.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: You fear being tricked differently and you fear the adverse consequences.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: So there is a there isn't a lot of fear that new and expectant mums um carry uh in the workplace, uh when, when pregnant or planning to become pregnant yeah um, and you know the stories that I've heard over the last few years and you know the stories we read in the papers and my story you know, feeds into that fear because it's still happening in today's society.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: It still happens, you know.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: So we need to try and get over that fear, but we also need to educate the um employers, uh around um know how to treat and be respectful towards new and experienced employees.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting, I don't know.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, they may have thought they were doing it.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Whoever you know first did that.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, conscious or unconscious, there was an element of bias there towards my circumstances, or, unconscious, there was an element of bias there towards my circumstances, and it was my circumstances that were used to heavily encourage me into this new position.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: You know, nobody ever approached me before and said your admin skills are absolutely commendable.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: We would love for you to come over into this world.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: You know it was my pregnancy that was used to encourage that move and you know whether they was aware of that conscious, unconscious bias you know remains to be seen, but certainly there's an opportunity there for my ex-employer and you know any employers that are listening to this to you know, to really sit and think about the language that's used within the work state.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I remember when I announced I was pregnant and I was on track to try and get a promotion, they said, oh, we'll have to rethink that now.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: And you know at the time you don't really question it, but actually it's just about talking.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: I think about it now, me and you.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: If somebody's listening to this and is pregnant or you know about to return to work and they get a comment like that to actually think no, that's not right and yeah yeah, I mean you want to know that your skills, um are needed because because of a genuine desire, not because circumstances, ie a pregnancy that sort of, make it a bit more opportunistic, rather than you know, as part of someone's career path and and plan um you know.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Evidently something like that can have an adverse effect, you know, on on someone's career trajectory yeah, because I didn't go for that promotion.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Then I was like, okay, yeah, you're right, absolutely because I think you're right, because you're in a vulnerable position and you, just, you just take it, don't you?
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: And you know?
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: you know, and there's environments out there, unfortunately and I hate to see this, and I've heard it a lot over the last few years where you know, not, it's not just yourself that you know carries this fear factor, there's also environments that are quite toxic and they, they promote the fear factor.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: They will use, uh, the fear factor to control their employees, you know, into, into, manipulating them into where they need them to be or what where they want them to be for the business, not necessarily for the individual yeah and you know so, you know some, some people will be faced with, um, you know, a a conundrum when it comes to making decisions.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: You know morally, you know what decision you want to make and in your head, you know what you should be saying in response.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: But the environment is so toxic it just doesn't allow that freedom of speech and a lot of people will find themselves just shutting down and just going with the flow and just agreeing to things that they wouldn't ordinarily necessarily agree with through fear.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: And you know, and the employer knows exactly what they're doing.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: You know, with that fear, and you know, they're the workplaces that really need to take a step back and go.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Do you know what?
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: This lady here, you know, took her employer to, you know, to a tribunal and was awarded the figure that I was.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: And you know the need to sort of go.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Is it really worth it?
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Because we're now starting to stand up and speak for ourselves.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: You know, we might have lost our voice at the time when all this was happening, but you know us, mums, when we get that fire back in our belly, you know we we're pretty much ready to go to the ends of the earth to fight for just what we need and you know.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: So is it really worth it?
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: You know the brand damaging.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: You know the the media attention that follows, the financial implications.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: You know, not to mention the relationships with the stakeholders, the clients.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: You know by treating our employees who are pregnant in a very dismissive, belittling way can have such huge consequences dismissive belittling way can have such huge consequences.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, on the line, so you took the role, and then what happened?
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: yeah, so yeah, so you took the role and then talk us through.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Was there any more?
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: You know comments, behavior, what.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: And then what happened next?
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: yeah.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: So it just seemed that from that point onwards things just didn't go right.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: So I ended up working with a client who, who relished in the fact that he was the client and I pretty much had to do as I was told.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: And you know, and work, and work, you know, sing to his tune and, um it, it became a bullying behavior which was well uh documented within the workplace.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: My line managers were well aware of it, his line managers were well aware of it and there were, there were conversations uh allegedly, um, you know, designed to help, uh, support me, uh, within dealing with this client.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, the behaviors um didn't stop, it didn't end, if anything, it got worse so you know these promises of you know we're supporting you, don't worry, you know we'll, we'll put an end to it.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Um, you know we're just words, because actions you know told a different story.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Um, you know the behavior got worse and you know it did lead to, um a significant adverse reaction in my mental health and wellbeing at advanced stages of pregnancy where.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I'd suffered from several panic attacks in a short space of time, and you know it was.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: It was a number of things that sort of brought about those panic attacks.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: You know, yes, I was dealing with a client which was overtly bullying me.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: It wasn't even covert because it was well known amongst my peers and within the management, but there were work factors that were causing a great deal of stress placed on a project which had a very um tight um deadline which sort of coincided with my expected um due date and you know there were comments sort of made.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: You know again, whether conscious or unconscious, these comments you know played a massive part in in my thought process.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: But there were comments put to me, you know, that I wasn't allowed to go off on maternity leave before a certain date and it would be ideal for me to return after a certain day.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: And you know so doesn't matter what you've got planned, you know in your head in terms of how you see your um maternity leave panning out and the time that you want to spend with, you know, with your new baby.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: When you have comments put to you more or less sort of like restricting the time that you can spend off, you are left thinking what are the consequences?
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: So if I don't return by this day or if I go off before this day, what are the consequences?
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know again, that's the fear factor.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: So do you think and this is not to take away what was said, and do you think a lot of it was said to you, like in banter and you know, using inverted comments, and people think it's maybe a training thing where employers don't realise the damage?
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: I think it's maybe a training thing where employers don't realise the damage.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: In my situation, I absolutely think the person in question was being deadly serious.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, dear, yeah yeah, absolutely.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I think my pregnancy was pretty much viewed as a huge inconvenience to the business and the only thing that interested them at the time was me getting the work done and getting it done before I went on maternity leave and getting back as soon as I could to carry on that work.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: You know there were opportunities to you know sort of address these issues via, you know a risk assessment.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: You know, which is common practice by law needs to be done and you know it's written within all the policies and yet it just was not completed At any stage of the pregnancy.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: You know there was a time where I'd informed them of my blood group being a racist negative and the consequences of, you know, should any slips, trips or falls happen.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: It was this negative and the consequences of you know, should any slips, trips or falls happen.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: You know there was an opportunity there, you know, to sit and discuss never happened.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: You know there was an opportunity when I was dealing with panic attacks and I was telling them it was work related and you know this has happened and that's happened.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: This person's triggered it and you know there nothing um put in place there and you know that featured quite heavily within, uh, the employment tribunal outcome.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: You know the the severity of of not conducting a risk assessment and subsequently they have to do that but they just didn't do it.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: They just didn't do it.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: You know, and and you know you'll find that some companies will use a common default defense.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, didn't know we needed to, um, but your employer is a big employer.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, they would have had a hr team.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: They would have known they yeah, they definitely did know.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Um, they did have a HR team and, you know, my line manager and those responsible for conducting that risk assessment were definitely informed of their obligations.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Precedent, and, yeah, it was a massive missed opportunity, um, because it would have just allowed for conversations, um, you know where, um, maybe I didn't feel so free in terms of, you know, having conversations under other circumstances.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: You know this would have been, you know, a meeting for me and it would have been within my interests to speak openly about things that were affecting me, but it just didn't happen and you know it certainly contributed to feeling a lack of support and acknowledgement.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: You know, you know we're in the middle of COVID and there's so much information being put out there, you know, from the government, but also from businesses that you know want to be seen as protecting their employees from harm and, you know, and taking all the guidance on board.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Yet the one pregnant employee, you know, within the team that I operated in, you know was being seemingly ignored.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: You know every step, you know.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: So you've got COVID, health and well-being at the forefront of your mind, but not when it comes to the one employee that probably needs to be at the front of that list.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: You know so ignorance sometimes.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: You know it can't be a defence.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: You know you're a senior manager.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: You earn mega bucks.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: You know we need to make sure that these people are fully trained, fully conversant and comfortable and confident delivering.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: You know certain aspects of the HR um policies and processes yeah, so you, I'm guessing you went off then on maternity leave yeah, there was, I mean there was a number of things that happened, yeah, sort of pay issues which seemed to just sort of follow me throughout, which I'd never experienced before.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I was to say what were they like?
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Because you were pregnant when you first were pregnant with your eldest.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Was it the same employer?
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: It was with the same client, but over the years I'd gone through a number of 2P processes.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, right, yeah yeah, so I ended up working with Mighty about six to 12 months before my my announcement um oh, okay, all right, because I was gonna say, you know, were they supportive before, but it was a different employer.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, there was a number of things.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Um, I went off on early maternity leave because of the?
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Um health and well-being, um that was affecting myself and my unborn baby.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: At the time, I was um suffering from panic attacks because of the work environment and, um it had been identified during a routine um scan at the hospital that my baby had actually stopped growing 30 weeks and that coincided with the two-week period in which I felt I was at my most stressed with these panic attacks.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: And you know, I pretty much had no no choice really but to um take the doctor's uh advice, the consultant's advice, and and cease working.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: At that point, yeah, um, so I went on to maternity leave slightly earlier than expected, um, but the good thing that came out of that is, once I'd actually stopped working, my baby started growing again, um, you know.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: So it had its silver linings and it was quite clearly the environment, you know, that was causing a whole deal of stress on my body and my baby's body, yeah, um.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I went off on maternity leave, um, had my baby Tommy, um, in the November of 2020 and, uh, yeah, he's going to be literally four in in a week oh wow, yeah, nice, it goes quick, doesn't it?
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, especially with, oh, my gosh yeah so when did you sort of think then, like how did the whole claim thing come about?
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Did you go back to work?
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: You know what?
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: At what point did you think what that happened was not on?
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: so during my maternity leave, there was a number of other things, um, that just felt not quite right in terms of my keeping in touch days.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, there was further pay discrepancies affecting my maternity pay, you know, and, and each time I'm being told system error.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'd never had this system error, um, you know, prior and uh, when I'd asked questions, um, regarding this system error, it turned out nobody else was affected by it, you know.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: So I kind of felt a little bit singled out by the system at this point that the system managed to identify the one pregnant employee and decided, you know that we're just going to make an error every time we need to pay her, something, you know, important.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: So it started to feel a little bit personal and, you know, I started to think about things, um, in the build-up to my maternity leave and it made me, um, fear returning to work, um, so I thought the best thing for me to do is use up my days, you know, get back out there.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: You know, hopefully I'll work out that it's just.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: You know, it's just system error.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: It's nothing personal.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: You know things have changed.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: We've learned lessons.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: You know things are different and you know get back to work.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: So you know, using my kit days was just another eye-opener for me in terms of how my employer really viewed me within the business.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Those kit days were neither use nor ornament to me or to them.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: There was there was no interest in in in terms of reintegration and you know sort of um showing me that I was valuable to them and you know I was pretty much ignored throughout um my journey to leave.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: So comes the day that I actually do return and I think this was the the biggest realization moment for me was I I turn up on day one expecting what the policies you know sort of outlines in terms of a return to work and you know how much training I'm going to get given and the support that I'm going to get given.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: After you know a prolonged period out of out of work, and you know that meeting just did not happen how I or anybody would have expected it to have gone, were you going back to the admin job?
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: And I was going back to that admin position, I pretty much was confronted with a conversation that went something like this yeah, are you good?
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, baby good.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's called Tommy, by the way.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Um, are you back full-time?
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, great, I've got a list of tasks for you.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: And then it was wham bam, thank you, ma'am.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Off you go.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, and you know there were so many things that I'd gone prepared to talk about that day.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: You know, in terms of, you know, reintegrating training, making it, you know, easier for me, making it easier for my maternity cover.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: You know, in terms of that transition, and you know it couldn't have gone any any worse than it did.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: You know there were certain things you know that I was informed of within that meeting, which was that my trainer had been revoked and was no longer being supported, my subordinate who was covering my maternity leave was no longer reporting into me, and that our tasks had been split equally.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: And you, I pretty much walked away from that meeting thinking, okay, so there's no training opportunities, I no longer line manage anybody.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: And not only do I no longer line manage anybody, but I've now had my tasks split equally with that person that I line managed.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: So I'm trying to work out have they been promoted and we're now equals at my level, or have I been demoted and we're now equals at their level?
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: And I was so confused I came home and it was like a two and a half hour drive to come home from the office that day and I cried all the way home, yeah, and I just did not know what was going on.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: And then you think about all the other things that had happened, you know, and you think back, well, everything was rosy, you know, prior to the pregnancy announcement.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: And then there's this, there's this, there's this, there's this.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: And when I've gone back through it all, you know there's there's 26 reasons, um, that I took my ex-employer to a tribunal.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: 26, yeah, and you know, if I was looking at my story for somebody else after maybe the first few, I would be saying that's definitely discrimination, yeah, but I just could not see that at the time it's hard to see it for yourself and Tiff, and you know you're talking, I'm like thinking back to me, you know I that's.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: I think these conversations are really helpful because you start thinking, actually, things happen to me and I know that there'll be people listening to this that are thinking, oh, there's things that have been said to me or have happened to me and hopefully they're a lot earlier in that process and then can catch it earlier and do what they need to do.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: So what made you then think about taking them to tribunal, because that is such a big step?
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: yeah, so I think it was more the the fact that when I constructively resigned, so I I started writing my grievance and was that pretty soon after this first day, or it was.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: It was um, uh.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: So after I'd returned to work, I then took some, um sick leave, because I I didn't took some sick leave because I didn't know what was going on.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what was wrong with me, I needed to just take stock of the situation.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: So I took some time off on sick and that pesky system error followed me through that process as well, you know.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: So it got to a point where enough was enough.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: I I started to sort of find my voice a little bit and I thought, you know what I'm, I'm gonna make these grievances formal, um, and I started writing my grievance on a Friday evening.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: And believe me, when I say I didn't leave the kitchen worktop, you know for, for the whole weekend.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: It literally took me the whole weekend to write it, read it, rewrite it, read it.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: You know, um, I, I pretty much just spilled everything out in terms of how I was feeling in relation to all these things.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: And I finished writing that on the following Monday morning.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: And when I finally read it through for one last time, I read it through and I thought to myself what reasonable person would put this grievance forward and then continue to actually work for this company?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: So it was at that point that I felt I had no other option but to constructively resign from this company.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: And you know the position that I'd been, you know been doing, and the career that I'd built up for the last 12 years, and it was that injustice that you know I'd built up for the last 12 years and it was that injustice that you know I, I'd lost my career, I'd lost my financial stability.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I certainly didn't want my baby growing up, uh, thinking that he was the reason why, um, you know, my career had ended at this point.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: Um, you know it, it I needed to be able to find closure for myself as well, um, as to why all these things happened.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: You know what what is it what went wrong, you know?
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Was it my pregnancy?
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Because it pretty much sounds like it.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Um, I needed that closure for myself and that's that's where I, you know, had sort of made that decision in terms of, um, starting the legal uh process.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Um, but did I know what that legal process entailed when I started?
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: No, absolutely not.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was in it very quickly.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Once we was in, you know, in the in the midst of it, I, yes, so what's the process then?
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: so you did you try and remedy it first with your employer, or did you go straight to tribunal?
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: And then how does that look?
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: What does that look like?
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: so, um, I'd submitted the grievance.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is advised that if anybody you know is suffering from um discrimination, whether it be pregnancy, uh, sex discrimination, age discrimination, disability, any of that, um, it is, you know, advised that you give the employer an opportunity to try and remedy that by using the internal uh grievance procedures.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Um, given my situation, I was also under a time limit with regards to the employment tribunal because you get three months less one day from the last act of discrimination to file your complaint.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: So I had to um start those processes more or less simultaneously to ensure I was within the time limits, you know, and had the grievance process um brought about a resolution, and you know, one that I was happy with.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Then you know, I've no doubt that it would have brought an end to the employment tribunal process at that stage.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, that grievance process didn't bring about that resolution, it didn't give me that closure.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: So obviously going ahead with the employment tribunal was my only option.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: So they didn't offer to settle them.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: There was an early offer for commercial settlement, um, which you know are pretty low ball figures.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: Um, it's, it's pretty much.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: You know, here's a few grand.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: You know, if that's what you're after, um, you know to, to to sort of put a stop to.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: You know the process, you know, and, and for me, money wasn't what I was after, and it was, it was accountability, it was acknowledgement and they didn't account.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: No, I mean acknowledgement yeah, so, um, so, yeah it.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: It pretty much went from there, wow, and the whole process, um, from start to finish, in terms of the legal process, has, um, it's taken three years to get to where I am now my gosh, because there might be some people listening to this then that think I guess how do you know what's right for you, whether, if you are, if you do get offered a settlement by your employer, whether to take that or do what you do?
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you in your role at the moment, I know that you advise people that are going through, yeah, discrimination.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: How does somebody know what's right for them?
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: so I think initially, um, you know, anyone that's wanting to put a claim into the employment tribunal should always go into that process with um, the, the thoughts that you know.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Settling is probably better than actually spending three years of your time, yeah, to get to a full hearing that you may not win yes, you know I.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: I was very aware of that.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: But the deep rooted injustice in me was I want to go through this process you know there's no financial gain at the end of it because I need to find the accountability, I need to understand why what happened to me happened to me and you know some people will make a decision to, you know, stick to it for the long haul, and some people they just want a financial recompense for that period of time.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that's OK.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: That is OK.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: You know you've had a terrible time.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: You've lost your financial stability in terms of a job, or you know a career To be compensated for.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: That is right.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: And some people are okay with that, and you know, if there is a settlement on the table that fits within your idea of what it would take to end the process, then absolutely take it yeah, you know make sure you get legal advice in terms of independent legal advice, in terms of the terms and conditions of that settlement, um, and be aware that most settlements will come with a, an order for non-disclosure.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: you know you to be able to talk about it.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: That was one of the aspects that I absolutely did not want.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: You know I'd lost my voice, you know at the time and for me, a non-disclosure Excuse me.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: I've got a cough.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: There's so much going around at the moment, isn't it?
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: We're recording this in November, and it's that time of year where there's coughs, colds, all sorts, isn't it?
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: We're recording this in November, and it's that time of year where there's coughs, colds, all sorts.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: Isn't there around?
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: so, um, for me, a non-disclosure was just absolutely not in my acceptance list at all.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I kind of knew, you know, early on that it would need to go the whole way, because even if a settlement was, you know, was, proposed, that would have been one of the terms and conditions that I would not have been willing to accept.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: So, you know, some people, you know, just want that quick, quick settlement figure, that quick, quick settlement figure, um, but the process also offers judicial mediation and my advice to anybody within the process is to attempt judicial mediation what's that then?
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: what's judicial?
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: I can't pronounce it.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: The mediation I can pronounce that so basically it's um, it's a formal, but less informal than going to a full employment tribunal trying to negotiate who's trying to negotiate you, and then do you have like a cast involved who's.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: So it will be done through the courts, uh, so it can ordinarily um mediate between the two uh sides in terms of the process and uh any sort of communications that need to be exchanged.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: However, judicial mediation is an option once you've gone through a preliminary hearing, whereby the courts are giving you an opportunity to discuss with a judge or a legal advocate in between in the middle of year, discussing the merits of your case and discussing the difficulties of a case and looking at what a realistic settlement figure would look like in terms of advising the employee and also advising the employer to hopefully encourage them to come to an arrangement to accept terms and conditions that they're both happy with, in order to avoid going to a full hearing, uh, whereby obviously a judge and, in my instance, two lay judges, so three judges in total, preside over the case.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: You know there's a lot of cost associated to full hearings, um, you know the burden of that for litigants in person, the people who represent themselves.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: The burden of that cost sits with the respondent, the employer oh, does it okay?
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: so you didn't have.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously if you weren't representing yourself, you'd have to pay legal fees.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: If you do represent yourself, so fees yeah.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: So when you represent yourself, there's no, there's no legal fees um in in terms of uh representing yourself in court, obviously, most respondents, the employers, will um have a legal team, um representing at every step.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: You know, and they'll often enlist barristers which is what they did in my case, you know to represent them in the full hearing.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: You know, and those barristers, you know they're not cheap, you know quite costly, you know, I dread to think, the amount of money that my ex-employer has actually thrown into defending this case.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: You know, and mournful them for, you know, for putting that amount of money up, you know, to fight as opposed to negotiate and settle or to admit and apologise.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Ways that this could have been avoided, but unfortunately it appears they was just as determined to go to final hearing as as I was.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: So they weren't willing to settle in that mediation period.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: No, there was certainly no meaningful discussions that would um lead to um any kind of settlement um prior um it.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: You know it was pretty much both, uh, you know, were heading for that full employment hearing um how did you feel obviously you don't have a legal background preparing for a court.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is something you you don't grow up probably wanting to do.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: How do you do it, prepare for a court case with no legal background?
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: um.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: So I mean I left state education with very average GCSEs and and a failure in maths.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: You know and I'm not ashamed now to you know to talk about that because you know it kind of gives the listeners a better understanding that you don't have to have a high level of education um to be able to navigate this process yeah I literally left secondary school with no further qualifications or substantial education and, um, I I learned very quickly and am I okay to highlight these books?
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: oh, my gosh, yeah, please, yeah, yeah.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: So this was one of the the first books, um, that I purchased following um, so it's the employment claims without a lawyer, so it's a litigants in person um.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: The author is, uh, david kirwan, and you can buy these on, you know, online amazon um you know, a very modest amount, um, yeah, 20 pounds.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: And that book pretty much gave me the blueprint of the employment tribunal.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: So at this stage, this is what's going to happen and if this happens, this is what you need to happen.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: And if this happens, this is what you need to do.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: And following that, this is you know.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: So it pretty much mapped it out for me in terms of, once I've sent this, you know, piece of information, this is what I'm expecting to get back and you know I would encourage anybody who goes into the process to buy that book.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: And you know, just bit of light reading on a night, you know, just familiar with the contents of that book.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: And you know, just bit of light reading on a night.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: You know, just familiar with the contents of that book yeah and then one of the other books yeah, I absolutely enjoyed reading and, uh, found quite, um, amusing at times, because when it actually happens to you during the process you feel a little bit smug because you've already read about it, so you kind of already expect it.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: So it is this book Employment Tribunal Claims.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: So this is Employment.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Tribunal Claims Tactics and Precedence.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, I like that, yeah, yeah.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: So the author of that is Naomi Cunningham and Michael Reed and basically this book, albeit written by those within the law sector, kind of dishes the dirt on the common tactics and precedents that are used against you.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, so that's more from the employer's side.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: So this gives away their hand.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: In terms of.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, I like it.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: That's why it's got a chest thing on the cover.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: The little dirty tricks that are often played by, you know, solicitors for the other side, when you're unrepresented and, believe me, it is like a pantomime.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Um, and the the process, you know, can be highly frustrating for those that have obviously had no prior experience and, you know, I didn't know anybody that had gone through this before me.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Um, but I was fortunate enough to find myself a mentor through pregnant, then screwed yep um, which are an absolute fabulous charity.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: And again, you know order joely's book, yeah, yeah, um, and I had a mentor called samantha and she was currently going through the process herself.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Oh right, okay, she took me on and I've got to say it was such a blessing to have Samantha there for somebody who would, who was a couple of steps in front of me so she could tell me her experience, what's coming next and how she dealt with certain situations, and she was really good at helping me sort of like calm myself down in terms of you know this, this was my case and I was being reactive and emotional to things that were happening during the case.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Obviously, for Samantha, she's been there, done that, got the t-shirt and she knows why they're doing what they're doing, so she was able to educate me on.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: You know, don't worry, you know it's natural for you to want to respond like that, but let I'll let you in on a little secret.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: This is what happens next, um, and that support was just invaluable to me and that's what led me on to creating my own um online presence platform, um pickle um, so that I could also offer that service of mentoring women through that process.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, because without somebody who's already been there I can understand that this process of taking your employer to an employment tribunal could mentally break somebody.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, and people would walk away yeah, yeah, and then justice hasn't been done.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: No, and what's very?
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: good is that obviously you didn't take that early offer and so you can talk about it, because this is so helpful and empowering for other women.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: And you know it's like employers watch out, be careful, you know yeah, yeah, you know the, the figures.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: You know it's pretty much.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: You can't actually put the figures together of how many women are affected by this yeah because they sign ndas.
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: So many women are signing NDAs, so we don't actually know the depth of of this behavior and how many employers are responsible for this behavior.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: The only ones we know about are the ones that have gone to full employment tribunal.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: You know and you know, the statistics support that less than 1% of those that end up in employment tribunals actually win their case.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Less so, as a litigant in person, do you have to present your?
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know it's only when you see trials, isn't it on TV?
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Do you have to like present like they do in a trial on TV?
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: do in a trial on tv?
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's um.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: So, whilst it is a legal process and it is formal in, you know in, in, in the conduct in which you're expected to explain, uh display that they're not.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: They're wearing wigs.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: It's not that kind of court.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: You know um, but there is etiquette that you need to follow and you know a lot of um youtube videos.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: Uh will talk you through that etiquette and what to expect, and you know you can find a whole host of information online that will help support you and set you up ready for an employment tribunal.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Another company that I came across with online presence is VA V-A-L-A, and they are a very low cost, affordable alternative to using a solicitor in terms of you know've got um a multitude of templates that you can use.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: You know, in terms of um, your et1 document, uh, which is your legal uh claims that you first uh put your put into the tribunal.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: The templates from schedules of losses, witness statements, all the, all the documents that you will need to present throughout the process.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: Vala will have a template a affordable 10 15 pounds um for you to to use um, so you're not having to do everything from scratch, gosh you forget about witness statements and stuff and you obviously had to get all that yourself, and they also do but, you told what you need to get throughout the process.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Is someone telling you or is it in that book the employment claims for?
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: that lawyer Throughout the process you will receive case management orders and those case management orders will tell you what you need to do and when you need to do it.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: By the contents of that, or for the interpretation of what that involves is for you to go and research.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, there isn't anyone you know advising you in that capacity, albeit if you did ask the question, I'm sure they would give you, you know, the, the, the answer, even if it's just here's the link to this you know website for you to.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: You know, to look at um, but the book, the books, uh, that you know, that I've um showed you there that will give you a, a great understanding of of what those documents uh involve also valour, um being a non comes to tribunals, you know so.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: They'll often release little short videos around what's involved in a tribunal.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: They'll do some, you know uh, mock tribunal videos for you to view.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: You know the the reason google is your friend when it comes to, you know, learning the process.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: There is a lot of information out there.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: You just need to go looking for it brilliant um and I know that I know we spoke about this before we hit record that I know your employment um, your house insurance didn't cover it, but some household insurance policies do cover legal fees, don't they they?
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: So it's worth checking.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, like you said, mine didn't.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, I was happy to add it on afterwards, which obviously didn't help me at the time.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, if anybody is suffering from discrimination and feels that going to an employment tribunal is, you know, their next step, try, uh, your home insurance.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, some of them obviously are set up to cover legal fees.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: Um, you'll need to fully understand what that involves um in in terms of how far does that take you in the process?
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Um, but if you're part of a union, you know, make make sure that you know you've got your union representative, you know, to support you.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: If you are looking for one off pieces of information, many solicitors will offer that half hour consulting.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: OK, yes, that might be worth it.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a number of ways that you can.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: You know you can progress forward without having to fully commit to using a legal service.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: You know there's online platforms that you know that will do that.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: And obviously you've got your mentor.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: Was that mentor free from Pregnant and Screwed that?
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: mentor was free from Pregnant and Screwed.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, and you know there's other groups online on social media, on facebook.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: You know there is a whole host of you know people out there in a community out there that is there willing to support you because they've been there done that got the team.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, wow, so talk us through then.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: So you represented yourself and then you yeah, it wasn't quite the same.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: Were you surprised?
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: I mean not surprised, because you had 26 things, but I mean it must have felt like so surreal after all that time.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: It's a difficult one because actually, when I was sat there waiting to receive the tribunal outcome, I'd obviously told myself there's no, there's no, no way I'm gonna lose.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: There's no way I'm gonna lose.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: I've got the evidence.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: You know it's, it's, it's, it's so obvious you know, I think it's obvious talking to you that you were definitely discriminated against.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: But I guess you must have at some point have had those doubts like but I guess you must have at some point have had those doubts like.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: So the doubts actually creep in part way through the process.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: So when I started the process, of course I was pretty confident that what I was saying you know was was discrimination.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: But as you move through the process and you could become a bit more of a legal novice, you start to understand that it's not just as simple as um did it happen?
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: You have to prove why it happened and then, okay, that's interesting to know the motivation as to why it happened.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: So, and they're the difficulties when people are taking discrimination cases to tribunal.
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: So most people can prove it happened because you know, well, you've got that change of role, you know yeah yeah, yeah.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: So most people can prove it happened, but what they find difficult is to prove why it happened.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: And when I say why it happened, it has to be the the material factor of it happening, has to be because of the protected characteristic okay, because your employer, I guess, could tell we lost the work and so we had yeah yeah, and then, once you've proved that, you then have to prove the motivation as to why that decision was made, and that motivating factor has to be because of the protected characteristic, and that's why it happened.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: How were you able to prove that then?
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: Because it's that two other bits, then isn't it that you might not have known?
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: How do you prove that?
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: So that's the difficult part, because not everything has physical evidence.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: You know there's conversations that you know, that you rely upon on, you know on he said, she said, basis, and you know that a lot of what you put to an employment tribunal is is going to be um, you know from conversation, as opposed to hard, yeah, written, yeah evidence.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: Fortunately, what, what happened in my case is that an email transpired uh, which contained um discriminative uh language and descriptions, um, from my line manager, in response to a situation in which I'd already proved had happened and proved um why it happened.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: And now this, this email, was proving the motivating factor and how did you obtain that email, because that would be helpful, I think, to people through disclosure.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: So, um, there's, there's a couple of ways that you can uh obtain information that you feel might be beneficial during an employment tribunal.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Um, either you know you've you've got this information yourself.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: Um, so be sure to save it, keep it somewhere yeah, if you were maybe cc'd into an email or something or you can SARS, which is a subject to access, request um or uh documents pertaining uh details to yourself.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: Um, obviously, do a little bit of research in terms of what you should be asking for.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: You know a blanket approach to that is probably not research in terms of what you should be asking for, you know a blanket approach to that is probably not going to give you what you need.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: So be specific in terms of you know the information that you're seeking, or you can just wait for the disclosure itself in terms of what the other side decide to include in the bundle.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: Um, because there is a legal obligation for both parties to provide anything and everything that is relevant to the claim okay, so they can't pick and choose and think I'll just put the most favorable things in they might and may well pick and choose which is where the
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: stars request will will come in handy.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: Um, most companies, um, you know, you'd like to think, uh, during legal legal proceedings, um, you know, show a bit of integrity and honesty, but unfortunately, um, you know, the the process, uh, for them is to defend the claim and you know, some, some companies may not produce the documents that they know don't go in their favour.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: So, fortunately, this document, this email, was included within the disclosure bundle and that's what helped the judge make his decision in terms of the discrimination, because the evidence, you know was, was there.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: Um, so, when I say I went into this process, um, confident that what I'm saying was right, that was um, that was, you know, that was what I perceived to be discrimination and it wasn't until I was partway through the process did I realize that actually to prove discrimination is a whole new uh level um.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: You know of legal terminology and you know it's not just as simple.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: As you've been wronged, you feel wronged, so therefore they must find in your favor, um, that you know it is a very complex area of law and you know I'm not legally trained and I have no legal background.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: But what I did do, because I had an abundance of time on my hands after losing my career was I spent every opportunity that I could get, researching, reading, just trying to soak up the information that I thought I would need to represent myself in this process.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: And you know, I do sometimes think I've probably, you know, on a first in a in a law degree.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: But you know, with my u in maths, gcse, I don't think I don't think I'd pass the uh, the onboarding um, but it's you know, yeah, so they found in your favor.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: They did, and how long does it take them for them?
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: You know what influences, I guess, how much they then award you.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: So um remedy is is pretty much um a whole new um case in itself.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: So you've gone through liability, you know you've had to prove your claims and you know, for me, I started the process in 2021, um and it wasn't until 2023 that I actually had my full hearing.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: So that's a long process.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a long time, two years.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: I found out in early January of 2024 that I'd actually succeeded my claims and we pretty much moved into remedy.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: You know, within a couple of months, and I completely underestimated remedy.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: I hadn't got as far as researching that much because I was pretty much stuck in that liability phase and I kind of had an idea of remedy being.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: You know, here's my schedule of loss.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: This is what I'm asking for.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: You know, here's my pay slips.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: Here's my schedule of loss.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: This is what I'm asking for.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: You know, here's my pay slips.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: Here's my medical you know records.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: Here's this to back up why I'm asking for what I'm asking for.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I guess they could have still found in your favour and then maybe not awarded you what you wanted or deserved.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, and it's pretty much at their discretion in terms of the injury to feelings.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: The judge's discretion, you mean, yeah, um, and anything that you put forward in terms of past future losses, um, you know, is is it has to be evidenced, it cannot just be asserted.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: You know that you, you, you lost out on this because you know of this and you feel that you should be awarded this um, the two um, the remedy and liability is pretty much linked in terms of how the award is issued, based on where the liability was found.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Um, so, yeah, it's, it's, it's another process that requires a lot of um, research, research and and and whatnot, and I think I probably lacked a little bit.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: I feel like I could have done better, but then when I look at the figure I was awarded, I pretty much got what I'd asked for anyway.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: So remind everyone what you were awarded.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: So, um, I was awarded a total grossed up figure of 350 000 pounds.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, so the grossing up element of it is obviously to account for tax okay, yeah that will need to be paid on the actual figure that I should receive, and, and, and you know, as, as part of the, the loss of earnings and injury to feelings.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: So, um, you know I mean it feels like a life-changing amount.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: That um, it's, yeah, it's, it's so.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: A lot of people come at me with that and, and you know pretty much like, oh God, you've got all you know you you know, but it's really important to you know, to get this message across to anyone you know looking at my case and thinking, wow, you know, maybe that's what I could achieve now by all means go in, and do you know what the record is that anyone has been awarded in your situation?
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: um.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: So, in terms of employment tribunal payouts, there has been a number of significantly higher awards okay however, I have struggled to find an exact figure for somebody who's been self-represented, so I don't know.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: I think I could be up there in terms of one of the high achievers for a self-represented.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: You know, when I do Google it like one of the other notable cases that come up is Donna Patterson.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: I know Donna.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: I interviewed Donna for this podcast a a couple years ago.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for morrison's.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: So I think donna was rewarded around about 60 000.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she was 65 000 or something like that yeah, so um.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: Aside from that, I think there was one other case of around 180 000 um, but I can't find much more um on self-represented outcomes um, but no.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: What I wanted to say was you know, the the figure that I was awarded um was designed to put me back in a financial position that I would have been in yeah, had I not have been discriminated against and had I not have lost my career.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: So the vast majority of the award is my loss of earnings.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: It's my salary that I would have had had I continued working for them and, in actual fact, the only increase financially that I've walked away with.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: And when you look at the grand scheme of things, it's took me three years to achieve this.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my um injury to feelings was actually placed at twenty thousand pounds yeah, so I nice and hard, but not as life-changing yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: So I've pretty much been compensated for this whole ordeal, you know, from start to finish, you know, which is four years, because this started during my pregnancy.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know I've suffered panic attacks and you know very, uh, low mental health episodes.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: I've had no job, career, uh, as I did, you know, for for the last three years, I've had to go through a legal process which has dominated my time and took me away from, you know, for the last three years, I've had to go through a legal process which has dominated my time and took me away from, you know, time that I should be spending with the family and with my kids just to seek justice, and really I've walked away having done all that with £20,000.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: So when people say, you know, is it worth going through this process, I don't want them to look at the figure, you know, in terms of the top figure.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want them to understand that there's quite a lot of loss involved in that as well.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that 20 000 pounds doesn't cover that loss.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: So if you get an early settlement, you know you know that compensates you for just a couple of months where you know that compensates you for just a couple of months where you know it'll see you through long enough to go and get yourself back in employment somewhere else and that works for you, then take that settlement because you'll never get the time back.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: You won't be able to erase the effect it has on your mental health and, believe me, I've had some, you know some real bad lows during this process.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: And you know, and you don't get that time back with your loved ones either.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, you may get justice at the end, but you also may not, and that's the big risk that you're taking by going through this process so what's now next for you?
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: so you got the, obviously won your case, and then tell me what you've done since, because I think it happened this year, didn't it?
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: I feel I was reading about it quite recently that you won uh, yes, so it was the beginning of this year and remedy was sort of early on March time and it took a while for me to actually get the outcome of that remedy.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: So I think that was given to us in early September and I can now officially say that that part of the process is nearly coming to an end, as I have received part payment.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: There is just a few bits that I need to iron out with the remaining payment, which is currently in discussions, which you know was the right decision for Mighty to make to you know, to put an end to all of this withdraw the appeal because they did lodge an appeal, which they've now withdrawn, and they've made a significant payment to me, albeit there is still some outstanding money there and you know, I can only encourage other employers who might find themselves in in a situation where they've been taken to an employment tribunal to really think about the adverse effect that this has on both parties in terms of, you know at the time, finances and what it does for future employees.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: you know, when looking at working, exactly google mighty, and your thing case will come up yeah, and you know the.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: The way that I was trekked throughout this process, um, by their representatives and obviously under their instruction, is another podcast in itself.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, you know.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: So I'll just park that one.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: But what I also want other employers to do is think about how you conduct yourselves during the legal proceedings, because there is opportunity to salvage some of that reputational damage in the legal process.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: Or you can add to that reputational damage in the legal process, or you can add to that reputational damage and you need to make a decision on.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: You know how you want others to view you, especially if you are a large company.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: You know who work within government contracts you know are well known and you know a part of.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: You know a register of employees who profess to be inclusive and you know a part of um.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: You know a a register of employees who profess to be inclusive and you know, uh represent.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: You know certain ethnicities, genders, uh, within within.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: You know a sector.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: You know it's okay to have all the badges and you know certificates of.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: You know of achievements, yeah, but that one piece of bad press um sort of says otherwise it all.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it wipes it all out, it wipes it all you know so.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: So so be careful how you, you know, conduct yourself through the, the, the process as well, because that can just have just a damaging effect on the other person, um, within that process, as much as it did when they was under your employment.
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: And okay, it's not, it's, it's not a game.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: You know this, this, this is real life, and there was, there's so many opportunities, um, you know, that could have brought about a better conclusion than than what we both had to just go through over the last three to four years and you know, so you've set up pregnant pickle.
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: I have, yes, and what does pregnant pickle do so?
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: pregnant pickle was originally set up as a bit of a therapeutic outlet for me.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: Um, after speaking to my therapist when I was going through a difficult time and um not knowing how to just get things off my chest, she sort of encouraged me to um create this online presence.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: Um, and you know, try and tap into a you know a group of people community that I've had similar experiences and and and give me somewhere, you know a platform to just speak openly about about things.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: So I set up pregnant people um online uh via social media at first, and I joined one of my local um alternative voices uh groups, oh yeah so, you know, be amongst other women, um, you know, who have just had babies or having babies, and just sort of listen if there's, you know, if there's any similar stories out there.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: And through that um, through that group, I actually um came into contact with uh Doncaster Council and some of the funding and the grants that they, you know um often give out to, um to local businesses who are, you know, are trying to achieve something to help others, and they actually funded a website for me, um, so that's good yeah, online, um, and basically it's designed to um give out information, so there's some downloadable content on there for both employers and employees, um, because you know, it's not just the employees that I want to help, uh, support through the process.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: I want to help educate the employers to not be, in the process to begin with, because that's the root cause.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: Fix it fix the root cause and then you know we can go some way to, you know, having an impact on the amount of women that are affected.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: So yeah, online platform with information and signposting to other relevant uh pages of information.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: And I'm often contacted by uh women, um who are going through similar situations, um, and you know they want to know a simple question that maybe a solicitor will charge them 25, 50 pounds for um, or they'll want a better understanding of the process or they need somebody to help guide them.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: And that's pretty much what I do in my spare time and so I do all of that, you know, for free.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say okay, yeah yeah, because I've been there, I know what this process can do, and it nearly broke me and I consider myself now to be quite a resilient, strong individual.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, considered myself to be that kind of that, that person prior to, um, my pregnancy.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: It was just that intermediate part where I felt so vulnerable.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I couldn't even help myself, and my nature, naturally, is to fight for the underdogs, um, and I feel that that's what I want to, you know, achieve you know as many women, as I possibly, can you know, for as long as I've got the time to be able to to invest in that so how can people find you then, if they're going through something similar and they want support?
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: Uh, so, online, just type in pregnant pickle, and there's a website there that you can contact me through.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: Or just on social media, on Instagram or Facebook.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: I am just one person so please do not be offended if you don't get an immediate response or even a response at all, because I have had so many messages.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, I can.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: Um, obviously the media have, you know, sort of um shone a spotlight on on on me and pregnant pickle.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, I do try my very best to you know, to respond um, but I am just one person.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: But there is a much bigger charity out there pregnant than screwed um, that you know, will you know be more than happy to help support where they obviously can give you a free mentor, like they gave you.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah well, thank you so much, nicola, for joining me today.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: It's been absolutely fascinating conversation.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: I have learned so so much by talking with you, and I know our listeners will have done too, so thank you.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.