Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Girl, 10, Snatched from Ohio Bay Shopping Strip, Family Gets Bizarre Calls

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Girl, 10, Snatched from Ohio Bay Shopping Strip, Family Gets Bizarre Calls · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bay Village police are seeking
0:15
Speaker 1: a little girl who failed to return home from school
0:19
Speaker 1: this afternoon. That brief but disturbing message started the search
0:27
Speaker 1: for ten year old Amy. I, Nancy Grace, this is
0:31
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at
0:34
Speaker 1: Fox Nation and series XM one eleven. First of all,
0:39
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at Fox eight. I
0:42
Speaker 1: called my mom, who then said no, she had choir
0:44
Speaker 1: practice that Friday, which was odd. And then she still
0:48
Speaker 1: wasn't home, and I called her again. Amy had called
0:51
Speaker 1: her mom that afternoon, apparently in between Jason's two calls,
0:55
Speaker 1: apparently to reassure her authorities believe she was with her
0:59
Speaker 1: abductor when she made that call. As time passed, though,
1:02
Speaker 1: when Jason called his mom a second time, the fear grew,
1:06
Speaker 1: and of course I said, everything into motion. Everyone knew
1:09
Speaker 1: something was wrong. A massive search ensued. So when she's
1:14
Speaker 1: not home, when she's supposed to be home, everyone began
1:18
Speaker 1: feeling uneasy. She was supposed to have choir that afternoon
1:22
Speaker 1: on a Friday afternoon, the teen year old little girl
1:25
Speaker 1: didn't come home. You're hearing her brother Jason speaking. Take
1:31
Speaker 1: a listen again, to our friends at Foxhate. Amy disappeared
1:34
Speaker 1: from that square across the street after meeting a man
1:36
Speaker 1: who had called her at home. He indicated that he
1:39
Speaker 1: wanted to help Amy buy a surprise gift for her mother, Margaret,
1:42
Speaker 1: who had received her promotion at work. Something that was true,
1:45
Speaker 1: and he knew Amy was never seen alive again. Her
1:49
Speaker 1: brother Jason was the first person to send something wrong.
1:51
Speaker 1: That October day. Amy got out of school about an
1:54
Speaker 1: hour earlier than he did, meaning Amy was almost always
1:58
Speaker 1: the first one home. I came home to an empty house,
2:03
Speaker 1: which was rare. How would the kidnapper know about the
2:07
Speaker 1: mom's promotion? Did the ten year old girl unwillingly tell
2:11
Speaker 1: him that? How did he know how to reach her?
2:15
Speaker 1: All these questions surrounding the disappearance of a beautiful ten
2:20
Speaker 1: year old little girl. Amy Mehalvic again, I'm Nancy Grace.
2:26
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
2:28
Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and series XM one eleven with
2:33
Speaker 1: me and All Star a panel to make sense of
2:35
Speaker 1: what we know right now. First of all, straight out
2:38
Speaker 1: to special guests joining us news anchor from CBS nineteen
2:42
Speaker 1: Nicole Versansky. Nicole, thank you for being with us and
2:46
Speaker 1: you can find her in Nicole Versansky, Cleveland, nineteen Nicole,
2:51
Speaker 1: thanks for being with us. Tell me about the afternoon
2:54
Speaker 1: that Amy went missing. Amy ten years old. She's in
2:58
Speaker 1: fifth grade. She rides ther bike school and that afternoon,
3:03
Speaker 1: specifically that afternoon in her class, she had an officer
3:07
Speaker 1: speaking in her class about stranger danger. And we know
3:11
Speaker 1: that she left her bike at school and she walked
3:14
Speaker 1: about a block away after she got out of school
3:17
Speaker 1: to meet a man. She told a couple of friends
3:19
Speaker 1: she was going there to meet someone to buy a
3:22
Speaker 1: gift from her mom. And she walks a couple bucks
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Speaker 1: away from school. It's an ice cream shop. There's an
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Speaker 1: ice cream shop in this plaza. It's a popular after
3:31
Speaker 1: school hangout. And she's seen the last time Amy Mahalovic
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Speaker 1: is seen as two other ten year old boys saw
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Speaker 1: her there with a man. She turned toward the parking
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Speaker 1: lot with him, never to be seen again. You're scaring
3:46
Speaker 1: me so much right now, because the Twins School is
3:51
Speaker 1: right down the hill from a frozen customers like ice
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Speaker 1: cream shop, and anytime between twelve and four, you can
4:03
Speaker 1: see a parade of students going up and down that sidewalk.
4:08
Speaker 1: If it's good, a little high. You know, it's about
4:11
Speaker 1: maybe a quarter of a mile to get there, but
4:16
Speaker 1: it's a hangout and they all go there. That's exactly
4:19
Speaker 1: the same picture here. And what's so disturbing about this,
4:23
Speaker 1: Nancy as if you talk to Amy's dad, Mark, Amy
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Speaker 1: wasn't one to go hang out and talk to a stranger.
4:29
Speaker 1: She was a sweet girl. Mark girl got ais and bees,
4:33
Speaker 1: but she wouldn't go up to someone. She never talked
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Speaker 1: to strangers. So the person she was meeting wasn't a
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Speaker 1: stranger to her. This is someone she felt she knew
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Speaker 1: and she could trust. Now, it's interesting that you say,
4:46
Speaker 1: in Nicole Vra Sansky joining us CBS nineteen that it's
4:50
Speaker 1: someone she knew, But you're in my definition of someone
4:55
Speaker 1: she knew is very different from a child's idea of
4:59
Speaker 1: someone they know. Because join me right now. Del Carson
5:03
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former FBI agent,
5:09
Speaker 1: author of a rest Proof yourself. You can find him
5:11
Speaker 1: at del Carson law dot com. Dell and all your
5:14
Speaker 1: work with the FBI and all my work dealing with
5:17
Speaker 1: child kidnap, child murder, child leastation. You can ask a child, well,
5:22
Speaker 1: who wasn't, and they go, well, the janitor, or the yardman,
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Speaker 1: or the guy at the ice cream shop. They may
5:33
Speaker 1: not even know the name of the person, yet they
5:37
Speaker 1: think they know the man at the ice cream shop.
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Speaker 1: He's there almost every afternoon, and he's taught to her
5:43
Speaker 1: in the past about her family and her siblings and
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Speaker 1: her dog and her bike. And she thinks she knows him,
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Speaker 1: but she doesn't. Children don't think the way we do.
5:56
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And more to the point, man, you know,
6:00
Speaker 1: the children's frame of reference is fairly small, and the
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Speaker 1: result is anybody they know becomes important to them when
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Speaker 1: they wouldn't be important to adults at all. You know,
6:11
Speaker 1: that's really interesting that you said that. Let me go
6:13
Speaker 1: to doctor Jerry Crossen joining US psychologists and Professor Saint
6:17
Speaker 1: Leo University consultant author of Operation SS. Doctor Jory, what
6:23
Speaker 1: do you make of what Carson just said that a
6:25
Speaker 1: child's world is so small that the people that they
6:29
Speaker 1: do know have a significant importance to them. Yeah. And
6:32
Speaker 1: the big point too, is that they're very trusting. And
6:35
Speaker 1: when you look at how freely we give trust into
6:39
Speaker 1: other people, you know, just a little bit of information
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Speaker 1: if this person were to say something that she may
6:46
Speaker 1: know about some of her friends or her parents or
6:49
Speaker 1: something like that. You see, there's that connection now, and
6:52
Speaker 1: with that connection now comes trust. You know. Nicole Versanski
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Speaker 1: is joining US News anchor CBS nineteen Nicole, you told me.
7:00
Speaker 1: She mentioned to several of her friends that she who
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Speaker 1: the guy was. She mentioned to two of her friends.
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Speaker 1: She never told her brother, never told her family, And
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Speaker 1: the indication is that this man called her at home
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Speaker 1: at least once, but likely more. But she did confide
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Speaker 1: in two friends at school that day that she was
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Speaker 1: going after school to meet this man to buy a
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Speaker 1: gift for her mom for a work promotion. So this person,
7:28
Speaker 1: this man, had enough information on Amy as far as
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Speaker 1: her mom. Margaret wasn't really promoted, she was going from
7:36
Speaker 1: part time to full time, but had enough information to
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Speaker 1: know that about Amy and be able to lure her
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Speaker 1: with the promise of you know, here she is. She's
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Speaker 1: a ten year old girl thinking she's doing something wonderful
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Speaker 1: for her mom. She's going to surprise her with a gift.
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Speaker 1: And that breaks your heart when you think of just
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Speaker 1: the innocence and the sweet act of what she had
8:00
Speaker 1: tended to do. Greg Smith joining me, Special Deputy Sheriff
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Speaker 1: Johnson County Sheriff's Office and executive director of the Kelsey
8:06
Speaker 1: Smith Foundation, named after his daughter who was kidnapped and murdered. Kelsey,
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Speaker 1: Greg thank you for being with us. You know, when
8:16
Speaker 1: I'm hearing Nicole for Sansky described ten year old Amy,
8:21
Speaker 1: it almost basically want to cry because this little girl
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Speaker 1: is so trusting and she thinks the kidnapper is going
8:29
Speaker 1: to take her to buy a present for her mom's promotion. Yeah,
8:33
Speaker 1: and that's the sad truth of the thing in a
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Speaker 1: number of ways. One, it's too bad that in our
8:40
Speaker 1: society you can't trust other people. But two, that's exactly
8:46
Speaker 1: what kids do. I mean, I have eight grandkids and
8:51
Speaker 1: you know they're all so sweet and innocent, and you
8:55
Speaker 1: listen to them talk about who their friends are or
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Speaker 1: who they met. And in today's world, now their social
9:00
Speaker 1: media and you know, you can boom somebody appears on
9:04
Speaker 1: a tablet or a phone. And if you've got school
9:07
Speaker 1: age kids, chances are the schools giving you that equipment.
9:11
Speaker 1: So now they're bringing that equipment home because they needed
9:14
Speaker 1: for school, but it can be used for other purposes.
9:16
Speaker 1: So the world has changed and in a lot of ways,
9:20
Speaker 1: not for the butter. Her mind was occupied with getting
9:24
Speaker 1: a surprise gift for her mother for her mom's promotion.
9:42
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy, Grace with Me Doctor Michelle Dupree,
9:47
Speaker 1: who wrote literally wrote the book Investigating Child abuse Field
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Speaker 1: Guide Doctor Dupree. Very often we see a child kidnapper
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Speaker 1: on the lef get to know the child. It's called grooming,
10:04
Speaker 1: And I guarantee you he got the information out of
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Speaker 1: this child about her mom getting the promotion and then
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Speaker 1: used that as a weapon to lure her into leaving
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Speaker 1: her home, her school, the ice cream shop to go
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Speaker 1: off with him to get a promotion gift. Yes, Nancy,
10:22
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And that's what they do, is they
10:24
Speaker 1: become friends and I put those in air quotes with
10:27
Speaker 1: that child, and they know things about them, and they
10:31
Speaker 1: seemed like they're very familiar, and so they gained that
10:33
Speaker 1: child's trump and the parents would have no idea what
10:37
Speaker 1: was going on. Dodgy Dupree because she's a latchkey kid
10:40
Speaker 1: like I was. When we got off school, we walked
10:45
Speaker 1: literally over a mile home. My mom and dad were
10:48
Speaker 1: both at work. We knew how to get into the
10:50
Speaker 1: home and we stayed there till they got home or
10:52
Speaker 1: went and played or whatever, and there was not a
10:56
Speaker 1: thought in the world that anything bad could happen. I
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Speaker 1: bet the parents didn't even know this guy existed, that's right.
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Speaker 1: May at least not in that capacity. They may have
11:08
Speaker 1: known the person, or they may have been acquainted with him,
11:10
Speaker 1: but certainly they did not know that the child was
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Speaker 1: involved with them. Was that each other again, del Carson?
11:16
Speaker 1: Because obviously they had met before, because she told her friends,
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Speaker 1: my friend's going to take me to buy my mom
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Speaker 1: a gift. They had obviously had phone conversations and had met,
11:28
Speaker 1: and I bet they met at that ice cream shop.
11:31
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you the method of operation here, the
11:34
Speaker 1: MOO is a bit unusual, and one wonders whether or
11:39
Speaker 1: not this has happened in other locations, which would lead
11:44
Speaker 1: you to a potential suspect. There were multiple other girls
11:49
Speaker 1: in the same general area who got a phone call,
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Speaker 1: and if you talk to detectives on the case, they
11:54
Speaker 1: believe it was from this team. Man, Wow, okay, you're
11:57
Speaker 1: hearing the call over Sansky jump in. I'm so glad
12:00
Speaker 1: you told me that the Coles joining a cbsiteen. I
12:02
Speaker 1: didn't know that. Tell me about that. Other little girls
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Speaker 1: got phone calls. There were calls before and after Amy disappeared.
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Speaker 1: North Olmstead is a town just a few miles outside
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Speaker 1: of Bay Village. But the only connection investigators were ever
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Speaker 1: able to make between these girls and Amy's case is
12:22
Speaker 1: just the proximity that they all lived in the same
12:25
Speaker 1: general vicinity. There was no other real link that they
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Speaker 1: could ever find between the girls. Nicole ver Sansky joining
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Speaker 1: a CBS lighteen, what would he say on the phone
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Speaker 1: to the other girls? It was the same, Emma, I
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Speaker 1: want to take a shopping It Scott to Bay the
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Speaker 1: side guy who's calling ten year old little girls and
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Speaker 1: saying I want to take you shopping. Well, the search
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Speaker 1: ensued for ten year old little Amy, her family distraught,
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Speaker 1: and then twist in the case, take a Little Star
12:58
Speaker 1: Friends at Fox eighth. One hundred four days later we
13:02
Speaker 1: find her an count Amy's body was discovered by a
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Speaker 1: jogger in a field in Ashland County, which is about
13:08
Speaker 1: fifty miles south of Bay Village. Investigators believe Amy's killer
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Speaker 1: may have been familiar with the area since it's in
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Speaker 1: a very remote location about ten feet off roadway right
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Speaker 1: in right in this area. Sheriff's deputy Karl Richard was
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Speaker 1: the first law enforcement officer unseen thrown on the side
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Speaker 1: of the road like trash. That tells me a lot,
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Speaker 1: the m O, the modusoftwad my method of operation of
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Speaker 1: disposal of the body. But also about this remote location,
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Speaker 1: Nicole Verzianski joining us CBS nineteen, you know, you were
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Speaker 1: just saying that other girls in the general area had
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Speaker 1: also been getting calls from an adult mail that wanted
13:46
Speaker 1: to take them shopping. He had to put together their
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Speaker 1: names and phone numbers. He had to have contact with
13:53
Speaker 1: them to figure out their names and how to locate
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Speaker 1: their numbers. He was watching other girls. This may not
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Speaker 1: be his only victim as far as that remote location,
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Speaker 1: because you describe the location for me, Nicole, for Sansky,
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Speaker 1: it's in the middle of nowhere, Nancy, and there was nothing.
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Speaker 1: This is God's country. This is farm fields that spanned
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Speaker 1: for miles and miles. So the person who did this
14:18
Speaker 1: to Amy had to be familiar with that location in
14:22
Speaker 1: Ashlyn County. You don't just stumble upon this field. I
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Speaker 1: want to point out a case similar in this aspect
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Speaker 1: at least, and this case is you know textbook to
14:32
Speaker 1: example for so many aspects of murder. Greg Smith joining
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Speaker 1: us Johnson County Sheriff's office is Scott Peterson. That's an
14:40
Speaker 1: example of committing a crime or disposing of evidence in
14:44
Speaker 1: a place with which you are familiar. Scott Peterson murdered
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Speaker 1: his wife Lacy and their unborn child, Connor, and he
14:52
Speaker 1: went to one of his old fishing holes to dump
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Speaker 1: the body of San Francisco Bay and then places him
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Speaker 1: self at the scene of the murder on the day
15:04
Speaker 1: of the murder. Lacy and Connor wash ashore a couple
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Speaker 1: of months later. But that's where he is familiar. That
15:13
Speaker 1: was comfortable for him. He felt he knew the area.
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Speaker 1: So I think Greg, that nicoleover Santski's right. Yeah. They
15:22
Speaker 1: I mean they look for places that are familiar to
15:26
Speaker 1: them where they do feel comfortable. In addition, I mean
15:30
Speaker 1: those of them that do some planning and really think
15:33
Speaker 1: about these things, and our career criminals, if they have
15:39
Speaker 1: familiar places and they're seen in those familiar places, it
15:41
Speaker 1: also sets up an alibi for them when something is
15:45
Speaker 1: found DNA or something else. Well, yeah, but I'm always
15:48
Speaker 1: in this area. You're just you're just trying to pin
15:50
Speaker 1: this on me because people have seen me here. You know.
15:52
Speaker 1: Another issue is I was alluding to earlier about how
15:57
Speaker 1: he could connect the little girls he meets at Francis
16:00
Speaker 1: Scream Shop with their home address. If you can get
16:02
Speaker 1: their home address out of them, or their phone number,
16:05
Speaker 1: it's simple. If you could get their parents' name, he can.
16:09
Speaker 1: You can go online and google a name a city
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Speaker 1: and get a set of phone numbers, or if you
16:16
Speaker 1: still use the old phone book, you can do it
16:18
Speaker 1: that way. Who is that day I'll get to jump in. Yeah,
16:21
Speaker 1: you know, it's so easy to trick a young child.
16:25
Speaker 1: You simply make the phone call and we should all
16:27
Speaker 1: be aware of this, and you say, I'm Jack, I'm
16:30
Speaker 1: friends with your dad, and how's your mom doing? Is
16:34
Speaker 1: she okay? What's going on? And the child just liberates
16:38
Speaker 1: that information because they have no fear, They don't have
16:41
Speaker 1: the frame of reference which teach them not to tell
16:44
Speaker 1: people stuff like that. And if they've not been warned
16:48
Speaker 1: about stranger danger, then they just open up because there's
16:52
Speaker 1: a belief and they do believe that that person has
16:55
Speaker 1: a direct connection with a family, even though they may
16:58
Speaker 1: not be aware of it. And other thing it's it's scary,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Jorry Crossen, And I've tried this on my own children.
17:05
Speaker 1: Doctor Jory is joining US Psychologist's Faculty Saint Leo University
17:09
Speaker 1: and author doctor Jory. Studies have shown that you can
17:14
Speaker 1: tell your children over and over about stranger danger, about
17:19
Speaker 1: what to do if a car approaches you, or what
17:21
Speaker 1: to do if somebody comes to the door and you
17:23
Speaker 1: don't know them. But children immediately after hearing it, and
17:28
Speaker 1: you just heard Nicole for Zaansky tell us they had
17:30
Speaker 1: a stranger danger speaker in their class the day that
17:34
Speaker 1: Amy goes missing and she still went with this guy.
17:38
Speaker 1: I've done it with my own twins and they, you know,
17:43
Speaker 1: they don't process the way adults process, and studies show that. Yeah,
17:47
Speaker 1: and they're again they're so trusting and it's so easy
17:52
Speaker 1: to disarm them and establish that trust. One thing too,
17:58
Speaker 1: I wanted to add in on this location. You know
18:02
Speaker 1: when I do it with sex offenders and evaluated him
18:06
Speaker 1: in court, you always want to get into their fantasy.
18:10
Speaker 1: And you know, we know like serial killers would take
18:12
Speaker 1: momentums and trophies and stuff, there's connections of where they
18:18
Speaker 1: leave the body and the fantasy with it. So being
18:22
Speaker 1: and out in an area where it's secluded, like she said,
18:25
Speaker 1: and this time you drive for miles. You know, there's
18:29
Speaker 1: a good chance he revisited it and that was part
18:32
Speaker 1: of his fantasy to go back out there, not even
18:35
Speaker 1: get close to the body, but by driving out there,
18:38
Speaker 1: he's still going to start this fantasy process in his mind.
18:43
Speaker 1: Explain what that means, doctor Jory Cross and psychologist about
18:48
Speaker 1: living out the fantasy, including the disposal of the body.
18:52
Speaker 1: Is that is psychologically the devancy, the perversion, that's the reward.
18:58
Speaker 1: And if you can as a psychologist, okay doing like
19:02
Speaker 1: a Jimmy Rice evaluation, if I can get into that
19:06
Speaker 1: and tap into that, that's where a lot of these
19:10
Speaker 1: whys and other things, even though we may not understand them,
19:13
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of that's the psychological heart, that's
19:18
Speaker 1: the reason in his deviation and perversion. You know, call
19:25
Speaker 1: all the psychological terms as evilness. Basically, to think about
19:30
Speaker 1: the way that this young girl was thrown dead on
19:34
Speaker 1: the side of the road is so upsetting, It is
19:37
Speaker 1: so callous. Listen to our friends at WKYC. That body
19:43
Speaker 1: has been positively identified as that of Amy Mahalovick. But
19:46
Speaker 1: it all came to a heartbreaking end about a quarter
19:49
Speaker 1: of a mile down this quiet country road. February eighth,
19:52
Speaker 1: the day the body of Amy Mahalovic was found in
19:55
Speaker 1: a field in Ashland County, fifty miles from her home
19:58
Speaker 1: in Bay Village. It was found there it was only
20:01
Speaker 1: about fifteen feet from the road, uncovered and in plain
20:04
Speaker 1: sight of numerous people driving by. She'd been stabbed, beaten,
20:08
Speaker 1: and sexually assaulted. The manner of disposal of this body
20:13
Speaker 1: brings two cases to mine. One is a case I
20:16
Speaker 1: investigated and covered Chanelle Petro Nixon, beautiful young teen girl.
20:24
Speaker 1: She went out of the apartment for an errand and
20:27
Speaker 1: was never seen alive again. Her body was found in
20:31
Speaker 1: a trash bag left on Kingston Avenue. It also brings
20:39
Speaker 1: to mind the case of Nicole Lovell, thirteen year old
20:44
Speaker 1: little girl that was lured out of her home by
20:50
Speaker 1: a Virginia Tech student, David Eisenhower, and she was found
20:56
Speaker 1: naked and wiped down some type of alcohol hye and
21:03
Speaker 1: thrown naked off the side of the road. What does
21:08
Speaker 1: that mean to you, doctor Joy? The disposal of the
21:12
Speaker 1: body like it's trash, well, it can mean several things
21:16
Speaker 1: and you know, that's where like the behavioral aspects like
21:20
Speaker 1: how it's placed. You know, if it's just a card,
21:24
Speaker 1: as like trash like you say, if it's wrapped up
21:26
Speaker 1: in a bag. You know. Sometimes they're they're posed is
21:33
Speaker 1: the word that we use. You know, they're they're staged.
21:35
Speaker 1: There's there's significantly how that body. Guys take a listen
21:39
Speaker 1: to our friends at w E WUS. Amy disappeared from
21:42
Speaker 1: Bay Village shopping center on October twenty seventh. Police say
21:46
Speaker 1: she'd gotten a call from a man luring her to
21:48
Speaker 1: a nearby shopping plaza with the promise to help her
21:51
Speaker 1: buy a gift for her mom. Well four months later,
21:53
Speaker 1: a jogger found her body fifty miles away. Police have
21:57
Speaker 1: a database, they say, of more than twelve thousand names
22:00
Speaker 1: connected to this case, but so far no arrest. Her
22:04
Speaker 1: dad says he is not giving up, just gonna take
22:06
Speaker 1: just that one person. If you don't keep you don't
22:08
Speaker 1: do something like that, keep it a secret, throat telling
22:11
Speaker 1: somebody else about it. Nicole Rasanski joining us from CBS
22:15
Speaker 1: nineteen Amy just aged ten, who disappears, her body found
22:23
Speaker 1: assaulted and thrown by the side of the road. Her
22:28
Speaker 1: dad very very rarely speaks of it. I understand, Nicole,
22:33
Speaker 1: that the heartbreak is still very close to the surface.
22:37
Speaker 1: And see, he's never gone down the road where Amy's
22:40
Speaker 1: body was found. He sees absolutely no reason, he has
22:47
Speaker 1: ever reason in the world to be bitter and to
22:50
Speaker 1: be an angry man. And he is still just such
22:53
Speaker 1: an incredibly kind, sweet, nice man. But the heartbreak, you
22:58
Speaker 1: can still see the empness in the nye. He loves
23:00
Speaker 1: to talk about Amy, and you know, any will and
23:03
Speaker 1: he'll smile, and he'll talk about how when she was
23:05
Speaker 1: five and six she was diving off the high dive,
23:09
Speaker 1: and just what an athlete too was, and how much
23:11
Speaker 1: she loved horses, and she used to draw him horses.
23:16
Speaker 1: He showed me a picture once she drew him this horse,
23:19
Speaker 1: and it was polka dotted, and you can see the
23:21
Speaker 1: smile in his eyes. And then you know, a mental
23:24
Speaker 1: pause and just nick it dumpty. Time doesn't heal a
23:29
Speaker 1: wound like this? Nicole ver sans Key joining us from
23:32
Speaker 1: CBS nineteen and destore of podcast Dark Side of the Land.
23:38
Speaker 1: Who Killed Amy Moholovic? I want to talk to doctor
23:43
Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree again, not only author of investigating child to
23:48
Speaker 1: bes feel guide, but medical examiner, pathologist and author of
23:52
Speaker 1: homicide investigation to feel a guide. What do you make
23:56
Speaker 1: of the mode of murtyr Doctor Dupree. There's a couple
24:00
Speaker 1: of things. One, I'd like to just go back a
24:03
Speaker 1: moment and talk about the method of disposal. This is
24:06
Speaker 1: very open, it is there's no forensic countermeasures taken. This
24:11
Speaker 1: is a disorganized killer. Slowdown when you just throw out
24:17
Speaker 1: the term forensic countermeasures, explain, So, forensic countermeasures are things
24:21
Speaker 1: that people may do to try and hide the crime.
24:26
Speaker 1: They take some type of staging would be a forensic countermeasure.
24:30
Speaker 1: In this case, you know, the body wasn't staged. It
24:33
Speaker 1: was just sort of left. You mean, like Alex murdag
24:36
Speaker 1: using two guns to suggest someone else was involved in
24:39
Speaker 1: the killing, got it exactly exactly. So no countermeasures here,
24:44
Speaker 1: And what does that mean to you in addition to
24:45
Speaker 1: the mode of death. So that means to me that
24:50
Speaker 1: it's basically sort of not very well planned, if you will,
24:55
Speaker 1: and again that it's a disorganized type of killer. They
25:00
Speaker 1: may have done this before. That's actually very good because
25:05
Speaker 1: there was some there was some other children that were contacted.
25:09
Speaker 1: He was looking to do this. I think that's obvious
25:14
Speaker 1: by the whole scenario, Nancy. If I could jump in
25:16
Speaker 1: for just a moment, as far as there are indications
25:20
Speaker 1: we know, yes this is Nicole, go ahead because I
25:23
Speaker 1: was going to ask you about prior hang up calls,
25:26
Speaker 1: But go ahead. There are indications that her Amy's body
25:29
Speaker 1: was wrapped in a blanket and a curtain, and there
25:34
Speaker 1: are also items that were taken from her. There are
25:36
Speaker 1: items that are missing to this day that Amy was
25:40
Speaker 1: wearing the day she disappeared. Interesting, I wonder if those
25:43
Speaker 1: were souvenirs. And about that curtain, take a listen to
25:46
Speaker 1: our friends at NIE's five Cleveland Baby Village. Police are
25:50
Speaker 1: so focused on this curtain found three hundred yards away
25:53
Speaker 1: from Maholivick's body in a field in Ashland County. Who's
25:56
Speaker 1: always thought that they were connected somehow, And now, through
26:00
Speaker 1: the advance of DNA technology and testing, when we've been
26:04
Speaker 1: able to determine that Amy's hair was actually on that curtain,
26:07
Speaker 1: investigators urge anyone who can help identify this curtain to
26:11
Speaker 1: contact them. The curtain is it's very unique. It almost
26:14
Speaker 1: looks to be handmade. Back to you, Nicover sands Key,
26:17
Speaker 1: tell me again about clothing missing from ten year old
26:21
Speaker 1: Amy's body and the curtain. Turquoise horsehead earrings one okay, wow,
26:27
Speaker 1: turquoise horsehead earrings okay, black ankle height riding boots, a
26:34
Speaker 1: black leather binder that her dad gave her. It has
26:36
Speaker 1: had buick basting class on it. Her book bag, and
26:40
Speaker 1: a white wind breaker. Those items are very likely in
26:45
Speaker 1: the possession of the person who did this to Amy.
26:48
Speaker 1: The culver, Sansky, you're so right to doctor Jerry Cross
26:52
Speaker 1: and psychologist killers, especially serial killers, keet mementos, they're victims.
27:01
Speaker 1: It can be like in this case, earrings, shoes, underwear,
27:08
Speaker 1: we all sorts of things. What motivates them to do that.
27:12
Speaker 1: That's part of that fantasy that they can relive it
27:16
Speaker 1: and adjust it fitted into their demanded mind as to
27:24
Speaker 1: how it came about. So you know that they call them,
27:30
Speaker 1: you know, trophies, but they are things to remember this behavior,
27:35
Speaker 1: this act, this person again in their mind. And you
27:38
Speaker 1: know again when you tie in like the sexual offenders,
27:42
Speaker 1: it has to do with the violence and the perversion
27:46
Speaker 1: that fantasy life that they have. Del Carson joining me,
27:49
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former fed with
27:52
Speaker 1: the FBI. Dell, I'm a big scrapbooker. I in my mind,
27:59
Speaker 1: killers take these mementos from their victims just the same
28:02
Speaker 1: way I would put ticket stubs or a photo in
28:05
Speaker 1: one of my scrap puts. Well, it's the remembrance. But
28:07
Speaker 1: I talked this for the Bureau the sex offenders, and
28:11
Speaker 1: I will simply tell you it's part of the ritualization.
28:14
Speaker 1: And what you find is that they behave this way
28:18
Speaker 1: and it changes and gets more internally complex over time.
28:23
Speaker 1: So that's one way is to track the serial killer.
28:26
Speaker 1: You find that they do it this way, it's not successful.
28:29
Speaker 1: They have to add something to it as part of
28:32
Speaker 1: the ritualization. And that's how we can track these individuals
28:36
Speaker 1: over time and see how long they've been engaged in
28:39
Speaker 1: the activity. So when you see a disorganized killer like
28:42
Speaker 1: this who simply throws the body out and throws the
28:45
Speaker 1: containing material out at a different location, is very disorganized.
28:50
Speaker 1: You'll find that they become better at it as they
28:53
Speaker 1: move along. It's frightening, guys. Speaking of the curtain of that,
28:57
Speaker 1: Nico over Sansky first told us all of a sudden,
29:00
Speaker 1: handmade looking curtain a curtain that was found yards and
29:04
Speaker 1: yards away from her body now reveals that one of
29:08
Speaker 1: her hairs was all that curtain. It did not come
29:13
Speaker 1: from her family home. Take a listen to our friend
29:16
Speaker 1: Peggy Gallant Fox eight. Law enforcement officials have taken DNA
29:20
Speaker 1: samples from people as recently as a couple months ago.
29:24
Speaker 1: We just don't want to miss anything, and that's why
29:26
Speaker 1: they're continuing. And a detective with the Bay Village Police
29:30
Speaker 1: Department tells the IT team that a lot of the
29:32
Speaker 1: DNA testing they are doing now is to help eliminate
29:36
Speaker 1: possible suspects and to make sure any of the DNA
29:39
Speaker 1: they do have is not what they refer to as
29:42
Speaker 1: contamination DNA, such as a hair from a law enforcement
29:46
Speaker 1: agent that was at the scene. So we're always ruling
29:49
Speaker 1: people out or checking people that were previous suspects. Time
30:06
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Law enforcement officials have taken DNA
30:11
Speaker 1: samples from people as recently as a couple months ago.
30:15
Speaker 1: We just don't want to miss anything, and that's why
30:17
Speaker 1: they're they're continuing, And a detective with the Bay Village
30:21
Speaker 1: Police Department tells the IT team that a lot of
30:23
Speaker 1: the DNA testing they are doing now is to help
30:26
Speaker 1: eliminate possible suspects and to make sure any of the
30:30
Speaker 1: DNA they do have is not what they refer to
30:33
Speaker 1: as contamination DNA, such as a hair from a law
30:37
Speaker 1: enforcement agent that was at the scene. So we're always
30:39
Speaker 1: ruling people out or checking people that were previous suspects.
30:45
Speaker 1: Joining me right now, very special guests. You know her well,
30:48
Speaker 1: Shira la Point, genetic genealogist, author of the gene Hunter
30:53
Speaker 1: That's GNA and founder of the gene hunter dot com
30:58
Speaker 1: on Twitter. LaPoint, Shia, sure, thank you for being with us.
31:02
Speaker 1: Boy do we need you now? You know you can't
31:05
Speaker 1: just run the hair. We have to now use very
31:10
Speaker 1: sophisticated miticondual DNA analysis, and that type of analysis has
31:17
Speaker 1: been refined dealing specifically with contaminated DNA. What do you
31:24
Speaker 1: make of what you're hearing? What should be done? DNA?
31:28
Speaker 1: Was hey? Shir up? Before you answer that question? Listener. WKYC,
31:32
Speaker 1: a ten year old girl who loved horses and wore
31:34
Speaker 1: a cross around her neck in one of the most
31:37
Speaker 1: shared missing children's posters of all time, murdered. Her killer
31:42
Speaker 1: never caught, while her story became the subject of documentaries
31:46
Speaker 1: featured over the years on talk shows, as investigators continued
31:50
Speaker 1: their public outreach with billboards sharing as well. This handmade
31:53
Speaker 1: curtain and blanket found within feet of Amy's body. Believe
31:57
Speaker 1: she was wrapped in it, hoping that someone might recognize
32:00
Speaker 1: where it came from. But so far nothing. Okay, sure,
32:05
Speaker 1: all point. You're the genetic genealogists, do your thing, Nancy.
32:10
Speaker 1: We have a quilt that was made into a curtain.
32:14
Speaker 1: Someone cut up a corner and made tabs. That tells
32:19
Speaker 1: me that if we can get DNA off that curtain,
32:23
Speaker 1: it would tell us Number one, possibly we made the
32:27
Speaker 1: curtain where it comes from. But also she was wrapped
32:32
Speaker 1: in that homemade curtain. We shed approximately four hundred thousand
32:38
Speaker 1: epithelial sales a day. Whoever carried her and left her
32:43
Speaker 1: in that field, it's a good chance their DNA is
32:47
Speaker 1: actually on that curtain. And nowadays we can take the
32:51
Speaker 1: graded DNA from a curtain that she was wrapped in
32:55
Speaker 1: thirty two years ago and find small amounts of DNA
33:00
Speaker 1: to get an accurate profile and figure out using genetic
33:04
Speaker 1: genealogy who touched that curtain. And that's going to give
33:08
Speaker 1: us some answers. They were able to prove that it
33:13
Speaker 1: was her hair on that curtain. But there are new
33:17
Speaker 1: forensic grade genome sequencing DNA that can be done now
33:23
Speaker 1: to help us figure this out. How hard is it,
33:26
Speaker 1: Cheryl appoint the gene hunter to extract usable DNA from
33:36
Speaker 1: a contaminated source. It has been historically very very difficult
33:42
Speaker 1: to do. But with the advancements in DNA technology that
33:47
Speaker 1: we have private forensic labs that are doing work like
33:50
Speaker 1: Opera that can take these cases with little, little evidence
33:57
Speaker 1: or degraded DNA and they can break it down and
34:02
Speaker 1: it would give genetic information that would help us build
34:05
Speaker 1: a family tree to figure out whose DNA is on
34:09
Speaker 1: that curtain based on epiphilial cell skin cells that were
34:13
Speaker 1: left on the curtain. Absolutely that is the DNA that
34:17
Speaker 1: you would be looking at, and it would be autosomal
34:22
Speaker 1: DNA that could be used to figure this out, and
34:26
Speaker 1: it would tell us number one, in my opinion, who
34:31
Speaker 1: maybe even who made the curtain, where the curtain came from.
34:34
Speaker 1: And I just I have to believe that the perpetrator's
34:39
Speaker 1: DNA is absolutely on that curtain. You know, I'm curious
34:42
Speaker 1: to culver Sanski joining us CBS nineteen and star of
34:46
Speaker 1: Dark Side of the Land who killed Amy Mahalovick Nicole
34:51
Speaker 1: she had been sex assaulted. Was there no sperm left behind?
34:56
Speaker 1: Let's consider she was likely dumped very shortly after she
35:01
Speaker 1: was abducted. She was in that field until February. Gosh. Yeah,
35:06
Speaker 1: But I do want to mention over the past, speaking
35:09
Speaker 1: to testing and DNA testing, over the past two years,
35:14
Speaker 1: they've spent about seventy five thousand dollars on advanced DNA testing.
35:19
Speaker 1: And again, that biggest hurdle is that this is thirty
35:21
Speaker 1: two years old, and that is a big zactor in
35:24
Speaker 1: the quality of any of the DNA that they do test.
35:27
Speaker 1: And then there's a risk there because oftentimes when you're
35:30
Speaker 1: testing this evidence, you're you know, you're ruining that evidence. Well,
35:35
Speaker 1: there is a way that DNA can be extended. You
35:40
Speaker 1: regenerate the DNA in the lab to create an f
35:43
Speaker 1: DNA to perform additional tests. Not always true, but often true.
35:48
Speaker 1: Is there a twist in the case. Take a listen
35:51
Speaker 1: to our cut nine our friends at Needs five Cleveland.
35:54
Speaker 1: The details come straight out of recently filed court documents.
35:58
Speaker 1: They're the sworn statements of the lead detective with Bay
36:01
Speaker 1: Village police following up on a tip suggesting on now
36:04
Speaker 1: sixty four year old man could be Amy Mahalovic's killer.
36:08
Speaker 1: According to a sworn affidavit, that tip came back in
36:11
Speaker 1: January twenty nineteen, a woman told detectives she suspected her
36:15
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend killed the ten year old Bay Village girl.
36:18
Speaker 1: We're not naming the man since he hasn't in charge
36:21
Speaker 1: with anything. According to police, she said the man never
36:24
Speaker 1: came home the night Amy Mahalovic disappeared from the Bay
36:27
Speaker 1: Village Square shopping center and more in our cut tim
36:30
Speaker 1: from these five Cleveland investigators say the woman did hear
36:33
Speaker 1: from the man that night, though a phone call asking
36:36
Speaker 1: if she was aware of news coverage about Amy's disappearance.
36:39
Speaker 1: During that call, the woman told police the man said
36:42
Speaker 1: his niece and brother's family knew Mahalovic. In fact, police
36:46
Speaker 1: say the man's niece was the same age and in
36:48
Speaker 1: the same grade as Amy, and the woman also believed
36:52
Speaker 1: she recalled her ex boyfriend tell her he knew Amy
36:55
Speaker 1: for years. Police have said prior to her abduction, the
36:58
Speaker 1: ten year old received a phone call from a man
37:00
Speaker 1: and wanting to arrange a meeting with the girl to
37:02
Speaker 1: help pick out a gift for Amy's mother. So that's
37:05
Speaker 1: amazing to me. They call for sansky that this now
37:08
Speaker 1: sixty four year old man says that his niece was
37:13
Speaker 1: the same age and the same grade as Amy. Why
37:17
Speaker 1: would this guy? They asking, had she seen the news coverage?
37:23
Speaker 1: Isn't it true he walked into the police station and
37:25
Speaker 1: gave a statement either all incredible questions, Nancy, But I
37:30
Speaker 1: will tell you detectives are keeping pretty tight to their
37:33
Speaker 1: vest with this one. They have their eye on suspects plural,
37:38
Speaker 1: and the most they will say is that, yes, one
37:41
Speaker 1: of them have come up recently. I think the fear
37:44
Speaker 1: here is that they don't want to put all their
37:46
Speaker 1: eggs in a basket and have someone out there who
37:49
Speaker 1: knows something or thinks they might have information think, oh,
37:53
Speaker 1: they got their guy. Well, why don't they just do
37:55
Speaker 1: a DNA analysis with the most advanced technique. But there's
38:00
Speaker 1: even more to what this guy is saying. Take a
38:02
Speaker 1: listen to our cut eleven news five. Cleveland police say
38:06
Speaker 1: during an interview with a man in the fall of
38:08
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, the man quote indicated he may have met
38:11
Speaker 1: Mahalavak's mother in a bar and that quote maybe he
38:15
Speaker 1: didn't know who he was talking to. Police say they
38:18
Speaker 1: asked the man whether he ever called Amy prior to
38:20
Speaker 1: her abduction. The detective wrote, the man said I could have,
38:24
Speaker 1: and that it could have been a wrong number. According
38:27
Speaker 1: to court documents, when asked again if there was a
38:29
Speaker 1: possibility that he called her, the man said yes. Del Carson.
38:33
Speaker 1: Why is a man in his thirties calling a ten
38:37
Speaker 1: year old little girl all the fact, Well, there can
38:39
Speaker 1: be no good reason for that, obviously, but it does
38:43
Speaker 1: demonstrate the link that the child perceived was with her family,
38:49
Speaker 1: because she could say, He could say to her, my
38:52
Speaker 1: niece is in school with you, and I would like
38:56
Speaker 1: to match up with you. Those were all mechanism keys
39:00
Speaker 1: to the lock of self protection that opens up and
39:03
Speaker 1: allows him to continue to manipulate the child. As of
39:07
Speaker 1: right now, after all the years have passed, Amy's father
39:11
Speaker 1: still holding out hope that her killer will be apprehended.
39:19
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. The tip line four four
39:23
Speaker 1: zero eight seven one one two three four repeat four
39:27
Speaker 1: four zero eight seven one one two three four. Goodbye friend,