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The Doodler - Unsolved Serial Killer · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

0:07
Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies, San Francisco cemented itself in history
0:11
Speaker 1: as a place with a thriving gay community. It was
0:15
Speaker 1: a place people could flock to and live their lives. However,
0:19
Speaker 1: though it was a place the LGBTQ community could prosper,
0:23
Speaker 1: they had to do so at night, as there were
0:25
Speaker 1: still a looming stigma around their way of life. So
0:30
Speaker 1: people took to the shadows to have fun and romantic encounters.
0:34
Speaker 1: The only problem is that in the shadows, evil also
0:38
Speaker 1: is able to fester. It was here that a mysterious
0:43
Speaker 1: man would sketch his victims before viciously attacking them under
0:48
Speaker 1: the guise of romance. This is the unsolved tale of
0:53
Speaker 1: the man simply known as the Doodler.
0:57
Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked Ingram,
1:02
Speaker 2: a true crime podcast.
1:05
Speaker 1: The following material more mature audience listeners. Hot Coffee, hot Tea,
1:36
Speaker 1: and a true crime podcast. I mean, this is going
1:38
Speaker 1: to be a good episode, right ready to go. It's
1:41
Speaker 1: always a good episode when you have a good drink
1:43
Speaker 1: in your hand. And I want to clarify when I
1:45
Speaker 1: say a good drink in your hand could be alcoholic,
1:48
Speaker 1: could be non right now, we're enjoying non alcoholic ones.
1:50
Speaker 2: Okay, Well it is Friday, though, so you forgot what
1:55
Speaker 2: you could have put Carolines in there?
1:57
Speaker 1: Oh, I know I had carolines earlier this week, and
1:59
Speaker 1: I think it was Tuesdays.
2:00
Speaker 2: Oh okay, because like Friday, Saturday, Saturday, Sunday. It's like
2:03
Speaker 2: kind of fair game. I guess.
2:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I usually irish up my coffee. I guess if
2:07
Speaker 1: you want to put in that terms on the weekends,
2:09
Speaker 1: and yeah, starting Friday, I usually do that if I want.
2:12
Speaker 1: But I took a cheat day this week, so I
2:14
Speaker 1: need to make up for it, you know.
2:15
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:16
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:16
Speaker 2: We had a very married life conversation right before this.
2:20
Speaker 1: We did. We really did.
2:22
Speaker 2: Then had like a fuzzy or something on his eyelid,
2:25
Speaker 2: and I like stopped and I was like, can you
2:28
Speaker 2: take that? Also, I don't have to stare at it
2:29
Speaker 2: this whole hour episode or whatever.
2:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, we recorded the intro and Nicole stopped the recording.
2:35
Speaker 1: She's like, you need to fucking take care of that.
2:37
Speaker 1: I'm not staring at that for the next fucking hour
2:39
Speaker 1: while we record. So here we are.
2:41
Speaker 2: I would literally, I don't know, just like with my
2:43
Speaker 2: OCD and shit, I would just be staring at that
2:46
Speaker 2: the whole time, like it would not go well.
2:48
Speaker 1: It's like a piece of lettuce in someone's teeth or something.
2:51
Speaker 1: I gotcha, I feel you.
2:53
Speaker 2: Oh anyway, that's what That's what you get for being
2:56
Speaker 2: married for fifteen years, I guess.
2:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's only the beginning as long as hey,
3:00
Speaker 1: you know what, we enjoying a full life, you know
3:03
Speaker 1: what I mean?
3:04
Speaker 2: So yeah, there you go.
3:06
Speaker 1: But we are talking about a unsolved case today. I know,
3:10
Speaker 1: I get shipped from you primarily, but a lot a
3:14
Speaker 1: lot of other people as well. When all of a
3:16
Speaker 1: sudden at the end, it's like, oh my god, it's unsolved.
3:19
Speaker 1: I'm warning you flat out this is an unsolved case.
3:21
Speaker 1: And I will also warn you I wish I had
3:24
Speaker 1: more time to do a deeper dive into this tale.
3:27
Speaker 2: Could it have been a deep dive?
3:28
Speaker 1: Oh, it definitely could be a deep dive. Yeah, I mean,
3:32
Speaker 1: with all unsolved cases, there is only so much information
3:34
Speaker 1: out there, of course, but I just really wish that
3:37
Speaker 1: I had more time to really get into the nitty
3:39
Speaker 1: gritty of this one. So I'm gonna after this episode,
3:43
Speaker 1: I want you guys to Hey, if you feel the
3:45
Speaker 1: same way, go ahead and dive deeper into it, because
3:47
Speaker 1: I have a feeling it's gonna be worth it. Okay, Okay,
3:49
Speaker 1: because I know I will be.
3:51
Speaker 2: I also have to say that I like, I'm obsessed
3:53
Speaker 2: with San Francisco. It's one of my favorite cities.
3:56
Speaker 1: I've never been, but everything I've heard it's fabulous.
4:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
4:00
Speaker 1: I mean that both like in a joking way, ye,
4:03
Speaker 1: in a literal just it just sounds fucking fabulous.
4:05
Speaker 2: You know, I've been there twice, but I haven't been there.
4:08
Speaker 2: Oh gosh. Like the last time I was there was
4:10
Speaker 2: probably six or so years ago, so it's been a while.
4:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, get prepared to take a little bit of
4:17
Speaker 1: a travel back into San Francisco because we are going
4:19
Speaker 1: to the nineteen seventies. Okay, So we are diving into
4:22
Speaker 1: a time that is far less accepting than the world
4:25
Speaker 1: we are living in today. Although I know that there's
4:28
Speaker 1: many political and social troubles going on with much of
4:32
Speaker 1: the world, so let's just throw that aside. This time
4:35
Speaker 1: period that we're going to is definitely still less accepting
4:39
Speaker 1: than today now. Despite that, it in fact, it did
4:44
Speaker 1: help shape many of the rights and freedoms that people
4:46
Speaker 1: do have in the modern age. Because like after the
4:49
Speaker 1: gay liberation movement in the late sixties and early seventies,
4:52
Speaker 1: the city of San Francisco, like of course, this is
4:54
Speaker 1: the United States, became a beacon for the LGBTQ plus
5:00
Speaker 1: unity and its people.
5:01
Speaker 2: Yep.
5:02
Speaker 1: So it was seen as a rare place where people
5:04
Speaker 1: in this community could actually live openly, free from you know,
5:07
Speaker 1: constant fear of persecution that followed them elsewhere anywhere in
5:11
Speaker 1: the world where they would live right. The city's vibrant
5:14
Speaker 1: nightlife created opportunities to connect fine community community, like minded individuals,
5:19
Speaker 1: and simply exist without shame. But not everyone welcomed this
5:25
Speaker 1: new cultural shift. The San Francisco Police Department, for example,
5:29
Speaker 1: which had you know, a deeply conservative ties at the time,
5:33
Speaker 1: had an official policy against hiring LGBTQ plus officers. In fact,
5:38
Speaker 1: in an interview, a police officer outright stated that the
5:41
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus people were quote bad moral characters whah yeah,
5:46
Speaker 1: and made it clear that they had no intention of
5:48
Speaker 1: hiring covert homosexual holy shit.
5:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guaranteed they had probably some on their force.
5:56
Speaker 2: But then those poor individuals.
5:58
Speaker 1: Just had to hide it exactly. So that's what we're
6:00
Speaker 1: looking at here. There's a lot of this community that's
6:04
Speaker 1: the riving and people are flocking to it for this. However,
6:07
Speaker 1: they still have to hide who they are. It's just
6:10
Speaker 1: this community has its certain areas or clubs or you know,
6:14
Speaker 1: nights where they you know, can thrive. Ye, so under
6:18
Speaker 1: the daylight, it's kind of like a vampire situation in
6:20
Speaker 1: a satirical way. You know, during the day, you know,
6:24
Speaker 1: you've got to blend in. You you can't really do
6:26
Speaker 1: your thing. You got to just wait till the night
6:27
Speaker 1: comes and then you can, you know, go out and
6:30
Speaker 1: and be what you want to be.
6:33
Speaker 2: Which sucks. Yeah.
6:35
Speaker 1: Now, the police regularly rated gay bars, harassed people on
6:38
Speaker 1: the streets, and even resorted to physical violence, all which
6:41
Speaker 1: rarely made the mainstream news. Because of this, many of
6:45
Speaker 1: the community didn't trust the police and often avoided reporting crimes,
6:49
Speaker 1: even when they were the victims of some serious offenses themselves.
6:54
Speaker 1: The lack of protection led to a significant rise in
6:58
Speaker 1: violence against the LGBTQ plus community. In fact, one hundred
7:02
Speaker 1: and twenty nine people of this community were murdered in
7:05
Speaker 1: San Francisco in nineteen seventy four alone, followed by another
7:09
Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty one in nineteen seventy five.
7:12
Speaker 2: Holy shit, Yeah.
7:15
Speaker 1: So you are over. You're nearly three hundred people in
7:19
Speaker 1: two years older.
7:21
Speaker 2: Okay.
7:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, So to help paint this picture, there was an
7:25
Speaker 1: incident in nineteen seventy three where a gay man was
7:28
Speaker 1: pulled over for a minor traffic violation. Now, this traffic violation,
7:32
Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure what it was, whether it was speeding,
7:35
Speaker 1: rolling a stop sign, I don't know, that's kind of unclear.
7:37
Speaker 1: But what I do know, Yeah, what I do know
7:40
Speaker 1: is this traffic stop should have been a routine stop,
7:42
Speaker 1: right However, it turned brutal fast. The officers actually beat
7:48
Speaker 1: this man so severely that he suffered permanent brain damage. Now,
7:52
Speaker 1: he did later receive a six figure settlement, but no
7:56
Speaker 1: charges were ever actually filed against the officers.
8:00
Speaker 2: It's like, I don't know, I know, I don't even think.
8:03
Speaker 2: I mean cool, like you got some money, but not
8:05
Speaker 2: like that's not okay.
8:07
Speaker 1: It's not okay. But the problem is, what's he going
8:10
Speaker 1: to do if he files a complaint, which no formal
8:13
Speaker 1: complaint was filed. What's gonna happen of it? It's probably
8:17
Speaker 1: even if it does go through, it's going to paint
8:19
Speaker 1: a picture on him. Officers are gonna come seeking him out, you.
8:22
Speaker 2: Know, probably. But I mean I'm just saying, like your
8:24
Speaker 2: health is priceless, right, Like no amount of money is
8:27
Speaker 2: gonna like help with that to fix that really.
8:31
Speaker 1: Which is exactly why he didn't form a complaint because
8:35
Speaker 1: his livelihood, his his well being was more important than
8:39
Speaker 1: filing complaint against the officers because it could mean his
8:42
Speaker 1: life is on the line if he did.
8:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, like so right now he still is able to
8:47
Speaker 2: He's still alive.
8:48
Speaker 1: I guess exactly, now, I know what you're meaning. Like
8:50
Speaker 1: the six figure settlement meant nothing, because it's like your
8:53
Speaker 1: health is more important.
8:54
Speaker 2: He has like brain damage now, right exactly, I know.
8:56
Speaker 1: What you're meaning. It just totally goes along the lines
8:59
Speaker 1: of why no formal complat was filed. So but with
9:02
Speaker 1: that no complaint being filed, nothing happened to the officers.
9:05
Speaker 1: They walked away Scott free.
9:07
Speaker 2: Oh that is terrible.
9:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, like no, like everyone knew that speaking out
9:12
Speaker 1: just basically would make things worse, not better. Now, as
9:16
Speaker 1: one of the community members put it, quote, even in
9:19
Speaker 1: a place like San Francisco, being gay meant living with
9:22
Speaker 1: constant judgment. The police were more interested in shutting down
9:25
Speaker 1: bars and targeting us in public spaces than protecting us
9:29
Speaker 1: from real threats. And this is unfortunately the life that
9:33
Speaker 1: many people were living. And honestly, it's even sadder to
9:37
Speaker 1: think that this is where people were flocking to because
9:39
Speaker 1: this was the best place to be openly gay at
9:42
Speaker 1: the time, well as openly gay as you could.
9:46
Speaker 2: This is kind of just like piss us off, isn't it.
9:48
Speaker 1: I feel like, oh, definitely, Oh well, if I'm infamal,
9:52
Speaker 1: honest like, that's that's kind of the worst of the uh,
9:57
Speaker 1: discriminatory acts right there. Yeah, I'm telling you kind of
10:03
Speaker 1: like the climate of what it's like in the era
10:05
Speaker 1: and what it's like in you know, San Francisco, even
10:08
Speaker 1: because you know, I'm painting a picture of the times,
10:11
Speaker 1: right So the times were bad and it was in
10:14
Speaker 1: this climate that you know, fear and distrust led to
10:17
Speaker 1: a serial killer named the Doodler to be born, and
10:22
Speaker 1: he was able to target gay men relentlessly because of
10:25
Speaker 1: this atmosphere. Now, he attacked at least five and possibly
10:30
Speaker 1: as many as fourteen people during his serial killing career,
10:34
Speaker 1: let's put it that way, leaving behind three survivors because
10:38
Speaker 1: you know, of their social status, none of them would
10:41
Speaker 1: come forward to testify. So with no conviction, he simply
10:44
Speaker 1: faded into history, getting away with these crimes. And that's
10:48
Speaker 1: what we're looking at. So let's actually get into the
10:52
Speaker 1: events and not just the history of San Francisco and communities.
10:56
Speaker 2: Sounds good.
10:57
Speaker 1: So in the quiet hours of the night, Ocean Beach
11:00
Speaker 1: Golden Gate Park took on an eerie stillness. Now by
11:03
Speaker 1: the day it was filled with energy of tourists and
11:06
Speaker 1: locals going outside and enjoying San Francisco's you know, green
11:10
Speaker 1: spaces and parks and you know, going for leisurely walks, jogs, whatever. Right,
11:14
Speaker 1: But after dark that all changed. It was a place
11:17
Speaker 1: where people could, you know, slip away and get a
11:20
Speaker 1: little privacy in the dark for some well private encounters.
11:24
Speaker 2: Okay, I see what you're saying.
11:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, So on this day, it was just before two
11:30
Speaker 1: am on Sunday, January twenty seventh, nineteen seventy four, when
11:33
Speaker 1: a man's body was found near the water's edge at
11:37
Speaker 1: Ocean Beach. It was close to the eastern boundary of
11:39
Speaker 1: Golden Gate Park, he had been stabbed multiple times. His
11:43
Speaker 1: hands had deep defensive wounds, which of course suggests that
11:46
Speaker 1: there was a desperate struggle to survive as he likely
11:50
Speaker 1: tried to escape. You know, the victim or sorry, the
11:52
Speaker 1: the culprit, the attacker.
11:54
Speaker 2: Yes.
11:55
Speaker 1: When authorities searched the man's body and effort to try
11:57
Speaker 1: and identify him, they discovered that whoever it had killed
12:00
Speaker 1: him had also taken the man's identification, leaving him as
12:03
Speaker 1: an anonymous John Doe for now. The early signs of
12:08
Speaker 1: rigamortis were setting in on the remains, and it suggested
12:11
Speaker 1: that the two investigators that he had been murdered somewhere
12:13
Speaker 1: between late Saturday night and in the early hours of
12:17
Speaker 1: Sunday morning, the same morning which his body was discovered.
12:20
Speaker 1: Eventually the victim would be identified, and he was found
12:24
Speaker 1: to be forty nine year old Gerald Earl Cavanaugh, a
12:28
Speaker 1: Canadian immigrant who had made San Francisco his home. Now,
12:32
Speaker 1: not a whole lot is known about Gerald and what
12:35
Speaker 1: his life was like, but we do know that he
12:37
Speaker 1: worked in a mattress factory and was practicing Catholic. Also,
12:42
Speaker 1: on his corner report, under marital status, the word never
12:46
Speaker 1: married was put which was also likely a subtle stab
12:52
Speaker 1: at his identity as a potential gay man.
12:55
Speaker 2: Okay, not necessarily, but yeah, not necessarily, but it how
13:02
Speaker 2: would the coroner know that he's never married? I guess, Oh, geez,
13:08
Speaker 2: oh gosh, okay, I guess yes, wow, huh.
13:12
Speaker 1: I mean at a time where you know, marying gay
13:15
Speaker 1: was highly illegal and you couldn't do it.
13:20
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, my brain just didn't, like, doesn't go there,
13:23
Speaker 2: I guess, like, which is good.
13:26
Speaker 1: Well, it means that, yeah, you're kind of a little
13:28
Speaker 1: more on the innocent side and not someone who would
13:30
Speaker 1: think that, oh, you know, gay people can't get married,
13:33
Speaker 1: Like that's honestly, in today's society, that's where we should
13:36
Speaker 1: be at, like people can get married, Like what are
13:38
Speaker 1: you're talking about? Yeah, to just be a standard, but
13:41
Speaker 1: unfortunately that's not always the case.
13:43
Speaker 2: Okay, So that was kind of like, yeah, that meant okay,
13:46
Speaker 2: I see.
13:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, where his body was found near water would
13:50
Speaker 1: prove to be rather significant, or at least in these
13:53
Speaker 1: parks in this area, but that comes later. Now, as
13:57
Speaker 1: I already already mentioned, at the time, violence against you know,
14:00
Speaker 1: this LGBTQ plus community was disturbingly common and in this case,
14:05
Speaker 1: police had little evidence to work with still, though they
14:09
Speaker 1: collected biological samples at the scene, though forensic technology wasn't
14:12
Speaker 1: quite advanced enough to make anything any use of them.
14:15
Speaker 1: Yet all they know is that they had, you know,
14:18
Speaker 1: a murder against someone in this community, which honestly isn't
14:23
Speaker 1: all that uncommon, as we discussed earlier, and they're going
14:26
Speaker 1: to collect some some samples, some evidence and beyond their day.
14:30
Speaker 2: Well, I'm curious if they even like gave it there
14:33
Speaker 2: all really, Like, I don't know if you'll get to that,
14:36
Speaker 2: but I'm curious.
14:37
Speaker 1: Well by the statter to them, by the sounds of it,
14:40
Speaker 1: the police were doing their job, yes, okay, I mean
14:43
Speaker 1: the only problem is, like, as I mentioned, there's like
14:47
Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty plus murders in a year. So
14:50
Speaker 1: how can you give it you're all on a case
14:52
Speaker 1: when there's that many cases, you know what I mean?
14:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's just murders like within this community, right, yes,
15:00
Speaker 2: so I'm sure there's more than that, but that's just of.
15:03
Speaker 1: This that's just of this community in this city.
15:06
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, that is not okay, that is so many
15:11
Speaker 2: I know, holy shit.
15:13
Speaker 1: Now, Gerald was laid to rest on Holy Cross Catholic
15:16
Speaker 1: Cemetery in Colma, and his murder was added to a
15:19
Speaker 1: long list of unsolved cases. As the months passed, more
15:23
Speaker 1: victims followed, and a pattern began to emerge among them.
15:27
Speaker 1: It was when another man by the name of Joseph
15:30
Speaker 1: or also known as Jay Stevens so first named Joseph,
15:33
Speaker 1: last name Stevens, but we'll be calling him Jay, was
15:36
Speaker 1: found deceased, investigators began to connect the dots between the two.
15:41
Speaker 1: Now originally from Texas, Jay had come to San Francisco
15:43
Speaker 1: in his late teens, like so many others, drawn to
15:46
Speaker 1: the city with promise of freedom in his sexuality. As
15:49
Speaker 1: he and so many others in the community saw it,
15:51
Speaker 1: San Francisco was a haven for young people seeking to
15:55
Speaker 1: live their life, you know, and be themselves without fear.
15:58
Speaker 1: And Jay lived life that blurred lines between performance and reality.
16:03
Speaker 1: So by day, Jay navigated the world as a man,
16:06
Speaker 1: but by night, under the bright lights of San Francisco's
16:09
Speaker 1: club scene, Jay transformed into a glamorized female impersonator, entertaining
16:14
Speaker 1: the crowds with dazzling costumes and lip sync performances. Or
16:18
Speaker 1: simply put, Jay was a drag queen performer, and by
16:22
Speaker 1: the sounds of it, he was fucking good at what
16:24
Speaker 1: he did.
16:25
Speaker 2: Okay.
16:26
Speaker 1: While it's unclear what pronouns Jay personally identified with, historical
16:30
Speaker 1: records suggests Jay lived publicly as a man so like
16:33
Speaker 1: outside his performances as such, So that's what I'll be
16:36
Speaker 1: referring to Jay as is, you know, he in him.
16:39
Speaker 1: One of the most famous venues in San Francisco's drag
16:42
Speaker 1: scene was a place called Finuccinos, a club that had
16:46
Speaker 1: been a cornerstone in the city's night life since it
16:48
Speaker 1: started as a speakeasy in nineteen thirty three until it
16:52
Speaker 1: eventually closed in nineteen ninety nine. Now, the word finaccio finccio,
16:58
Speaker 1: not finicccino, I should correct myself there. It's finaccio means
17:02
Speaker 1: fennel in Italian. But it was also used as a
17:05
Speaker 1: slur against gay men. Now regardless, Finiccchio eventually became known
17:10
Speaker 1: for its high caliber drag performances, which I honestly kind
17:14
Speaker 1: of fucking love because it's like, we're taking this slur
17:18
Speaker 1: against the community and we're using it to like make
17:22
Speaker 1: us proud of our community, you know.
17:24
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, you know what I'm meanure. Yeah, I wasn't
17:27
Speaker 2: sure how that was going to go. Like, okay, so
17:29
Speaker 2: they like it actually is a welcomed place, like they
17:32
Speaker 2: are welcoming.
17:33
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, no, this is it's. Finccio's is a place
17:36
Speaker 1: known for its like drag performances, Entertainers donned extravagant gowns,
17:40
Speaker 1: lip syncs popular songs.
17:42
Speaker 2: It was.
17:44
Speaker 1: It was unlike much of the other like dingier or
17:47
Speaker 1: even like grittier underground, kind of like LGBTQ plus bars.
17:51
Speaker 2: Uh.
17:51
Speaker 1: Finccio's had a high class, polished and even a tour
17:55
Speaker 1: tourist friendly reputation. So this was a gay hot spot
17:59
Speaker 1: to put it in short term, like a safe place definitely.
18:03
Speaker 1: Now the club was located in North Beach and it
18:06
Speaker 1: had a culturally diverse neighborhood that was home to poets, punks,
18:09
Speaker 1: Indian immigrants, and of course the LGBTQ plus. It was
18:13
Speaker 1: here that Finaccios became a landmark of its time. Now
18:16
Speaker 1: j had been a fixture in the city's drag scene
18:19
Speaker 1: for nearly a decade at this point before he died,
18:22
Speaker 1: and he had just secured himself a summer performance spot
18:26
Speaker 1: at Finiccio's. It was a dream come true for him,
18:30
Speaker 1: and a significant milestone in his career as well, one
18:33
Speaker 1: that unfortunately would have been cut short.
18:37
Speaker 2: Like did he get to a perform there at all?
18:40
Speaker 1: Or do you know, as far as I'm aware, no,
18:43
Speaker 1: he did not.
18:43
Speaker 2: Ah shit.
18:45
Speaker 1: Now, In recent months, Jay had been exploring comedy as
18:48
Speaker 1: well as a new creative outlet, expanding beyond the traditional
18:51
Speaker 1: drag female impersonators and that sort of thing. Right, He's
18:54
Speaker 1: trying new avenues of his repertoire, and on the night
18:58
Speaker 1: of Monday, June twenty fourth, nineteen seventy four, Jay was
19:01
Speaker 1: last spotted leaving the Cabaret Club, another North Beach hotspot.
19:06
Speaker 1: It's unknown whether Jay had left alone that night or
19:08
Speaker 1: if he had left the club with someone else, but
19:11
Speaker 1: police later suspected that he had at least arranged to
19:14
Speaker 1: meet someone that night, suggesting no witnesses had actually reported
19:18
Speaker 1: being seen accompanying him outside the bar. Early the next morning,
19:24
Speaker 1: a woman was walking her dog through Golden Gate Park
19:27
Speaker 1: and she made a grim discovery Jay's body laying in
19:31
Speaker 1: the bushes near Spreckle's Lake. He had been stabbed three times,
19:35
Speaker 1: and blood around his nose and mouth suggested he had
19:38
Speaker 1: been attacked violently. His wallet his jewelry were missing, preventing
19:44
Speaker 1: immediate identification. Now, of course, he would be later identified, right,
19:49
Speaker 1: but this was becoming to be a little bit of
19:51
Speaker 1: a pattern already.
19:53
Speaker 2: Man. He seemed I mean, I'm sure the other one,
19:55
Speaker 2: the uh Jared I think was the other guy's name, Gerald, Gerald,
19:59
Speaker 2: like both awesome guys. But Jay just seemed like he
20:02
Speaker 2: had so much like potential and he was like this
20:04
Speaker 2: creative person that was like, you know, making a name
20:08
Speaker 2: for himself and like the community kind of.
20:10
Speaker 1: Well exactly, and that's what he was doing. He was
20:12
Speaker 1: literally making a name for himself. Yeah, I mean he's
20:14
Speaker 1: about to perform at the yeah, the place to be
20:18
Speaker 1: for drag, right, So I mean, good on him, But unfortunately, yeah,
20:22
Speaker 1: he fell victim to the wrong person. Now, the scene
20:26
Speaker 1: born unsettling similarities to the murder of Jerald Cavanaugh. Now,
20:30
Speaker 1: Gerald's body had been found just a mile away on
20:33
Speaker 1: Ocean Beach earlier that year, from where Jay was now found.
20:37
Speaker 1: Investigators also discovered Jay's abandoned car parked near the crime scene,
20:41
Speaker 1: leading them to believe that he had either driven himself
20:44
Speaker 1: there or had been accompanied by someone he trusted. Now,
20:47
Speaker 1: given the secluded nature of the spot, it was likely
20:49
Speaker 1: chosen as a place for a private encounter, something that
20:53
Speaker 1: was rather common practice for you know, gay men at
20:56
Speaker 1: the time. They're trying to be openly affection in public
20:59
Speaker 1: and that carried risks. So, hey, you're in a park
21:03
Speaker 1: where it's a little bit more quiet, little dark people
21:05
Speaker 1: can't see they're doing their thing, right now, Most signs
21:10
Speaker 1: pointed to Jay Willingly going to Spreckels Lake expecting to
21:13
Speaker 1: have this intimate moment with someone new. Instead, however, this
21:17
Speaker 1: encounter didn't turn out out as expected, and instead the
21:21
Speaker 1: moment of romance met in violence. Now, whether the killer
21:25
Speaker 1: was someone that he met at this cabaret club or
21:28
Speaker 1: perhaps was a stranger looking in the shadows of the
21:31
Speaker 1: park remains a mystery because there is a potential that
21:34
Speaker 1: he went there to meet someone and along the way
21:38
Speaker 1: someone else crossed his path, right right, So yep. Now,
21:43
Speaker 1: What was becoming clear to you authorities, though, was that
21:45
Speaker 1: San Francisco's LGBTQ plus community was being targeted and the
21:50
Speaker 1: murders were likely far from over and they were right.
21:54
Speaker 1: Claus Chrisman was a thirty one year old German national
21:58
Speaker 1: visiting San Francisco, and he was staying with friends mister
22:00
Speaker 1: and Missus Booker Williams. He had been in the city
22:03
Speaker 1: for three months while his wife and two children remained
22:06
Speaker 1: at Germany. Early on the morning of Sunday, July seventh,
22:10
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four, a woman, again walking her dog, was
22:15
Speaker 1: the one to make the discovery of finding Klaus's body
22:18
Speaker 1: lying in Lincoln Way, a street connecting Golden Gate Park
22:22
Speaker 1: and Ocean Beach.
22:24
Speaker 2: Gosh, is it the same woman? Could you imagine that? Man,
22:27
Speaker 2: brig I would definitely be changing.
22:29
Speaker 1: My root No kidding, And honest, we've had this conversation before,
22:34
Speaker 1: like how often does a body get discovered by someone
22:36
Speaker 1: going out in water?
22:37
Speaker 2: I know, I just hate that. I don't know. You
22:41
Speaker 2: kind of envision like how you would act, but I
22:44
Speaker 2: don't even think you can predict that. Really, No, it's terrible.
22:48
Speaker 1: But I mean, honestly, if you look at it, there
22:49
Speaker 1: is a silver lining in everything. And the silver lining
22:52
Speaker 1: I pulled from from that of you know, you go
22:55
Speaker 1: and walk your dog, you're going to find a body
22:56
Speaker 1: because that happens lots. The silver lining I find is
23:01
Speaker 1: dogs make you active, dogs will get you outside because
23:04
Speaker 1: it's not very often that just someone walking alone finds
23:07
Speaker 1: a body. You find someone walking a dog, so they're
23:10
Speaker 1: getting outside and enjoying time with a companion. That's the
23:13
Speaker 1: silver line.
23:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, that poor dog's never going to get to go
23:16
Speaker 2: for a walk again. I'm just kidding.
23:19
Speaker 1: They'll get a private yard. They'll buy a house and
23:22
Speaker 1: have a yard, and that's where the dog will get Yeah.
23:25
Speaker 1: But anyways, I digress, enough of the jokes. Back into this. Now,
23:29
Speaker 1: where the body was found was only mere two miles
23:31
Speaker 1: from Spreckles Lake where Jay Stevens had been found, and
23:34
Speaker 1: less than a mile from Ocean Beach in the crime
23:37
Speaker 1: scene where Gerald Cavanaugh had been found. Now, the attack
23:40
Speaker 1: on close was particularly brutal. One investigator, who had also
23:44
Speaker 1: worked on the infamous Zodiac killer case described it as
23:48
Speaker 1: the most savage stabbing he had ever seen. The coroner
23:54
Speaker 1: even suggested that the killer may have attempted to decapitate
23:57
Speaker 1: him gosh. Now, like the other victims, Klaus's identification was missing,
24:02
Speaker 1: leaving him classified as a John Doe until authorities could
24:05
Speaker 1: find his identity.
24:07
Speaker 2: What the hell is with the decapitation? I don't understand
24:10
Speaker 2: why someone would even like go there. You know that
24:12
Speaker 2: seems so weird and gross.
24:16
Speaker 1: The way I look at it, there's two possibilities. There's one,
24:20
Speaker 1: there's aggression being taken out, and two, I think morbid curiosity.
24:26
Speaker 1: Those are the two reasons that I can think of
24:27
Speaker 1: in my head.
24:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, you watch a lot
24:30
Speaker 2: of movies and stuff and in war or or like
24:34
Speaker 2: any kind of fight. We watched like a Viking show
24:37
Speaker 2: the other day and like, yeah, there was a decapitation
24:39
Speaker 2: in there, So maybe it comes from entertainment and you're like, oh,
24:43
Speaker 2: I wonder what that would be.
24:44
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, and if we're going back into history,
24:47
Speaker 1: like removing someone's head like that, it was. It was
24:49
Speaker 1: a tactic of It was a scare tactic, right, Yeah,
24:52
Speaker 1: like a head on a pike outside, you know, a village,
24:55
Speaker 1: removing the king's head and holding it up so his
24:57
Speaker 1: army could see those sort of things. It was a
25:00
Speaker 1: scare tactic and like a thing of power removing the
25:03
Speaker 1: head of someone. So maybe there is that power dynamic
25:06
Speaker 1: in there as well. Okay, Yeah, Now, details from the
25:09
Speaker 1: coroner's report painted a picture of white what might have
25:12
Speaker 1: led Klaus to that secluded area. Now, his pants were unzipped,
25:16
Speaker 1: suggesting that he had gone there for a consensual encounter
25:19
Speaker 1: before being attacked. In his pocket, police found a tube
25:22
Speaker 1: of face paint, and beneath his clothes, he wore bright
25:25
Speaker 1: orange bikini shorts. Now, these details led investigators to speculate
25:30
Speaker 1: that he may have secretly been involved in drag performances,
25:33
Speaker 1: though they were uncertain. This was the third murder happening
25:37
Speaker 1: in close proximity to the others and with strikingly similar circumstances,
25:42
Speaker 1: Police officially began investigating the killings as the work of
25:46
Speaker 1: a serial killer. Their working theory was that the killer
25:50
Speaker 1: was motivated by internalized shame of their own sexuality, engaging
25:54
Speaker 1: in sexual encounters with men before turning violent, either during
25:58
Speaker 1: or immediately afterwards. Now there is also the potential, I
26:02
Speaker 1: do want to point out that he led them there
26:05
Speaker 1: and then never did actually have these encounters and raged
26:09
Speaker 1: prior to.
26:10
Speaker 2: But yeah, but I yeah, even like at the start
26:13
Speaker 2: of this, I was wondering if he himself, you know,
26:16
Speaker 2: was struggling or identified as differently than you know, what
26:20
Speaker 2: he actually wanted to be and stuff.
26:22
Speaker 1: So now, the Sentinel and LGBTQ plus publication that followed
26:27
Speaker 1: the case more closely than mainstream media did, because hey,
26:30
Speaker 1: you know, mainstream media didn't care too much to publish
26:33
Speaker 1: that about what the community was suffering, and instead just
26:36
Speaker 1: went with hey, you know, literal mainstream. But I digress now.
26:40
Speaker 1: The Sentinel ran a series of articles in August of
26:43
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four reporting that police had formally linked the
26:46
Speaker 1: three murders. In one article from August ninth, they summarized
26:49
Speaker 1: the growing concerns quote all apparently involved the victim meeting
26:54
Speaker 1: someone who suggested driving to a remote area such as
26:57
Speaker 1: the beach or Golden Gate Park, were viciously stabbed front
27:01
Speaker 1: and back. All three were stripped of identification and property.
27:06
Speaker 1: A police bulletin for the reinforce the departments perspective on
27:09
Speaker 1: the case as well. Quote victims one and two had
27:13
Speaker 1: homosexual propensities, and due to underclothing and makeup in victim
27:17
Speaker 1: number three, Klaus Chrisman in his pocket, he also may
27:22
Speaker 1: have the same propensities. Now, I have to say, propensities
27:27
Speaker 1: is a new word for me, so I don't even
27:28
Speaker 1: really know exactly what that means. But I'm sure we
27:30
Speaker 1: can all assume. I'm sure you guys know I've never
27:33
Speaker 1: heard that word in my life. It's a new one,
27:35
Speaker 1: so it was tough for me to actually pronounce it.
27:37
Speaker 1: But now, despite recognizing the emerging pattern in the three
27:40
Speaker 1: different cases, police faced some challenges. Other violent deaths were
27:45
Speaker 1: also occurring across the city. Now I kind of alluded
27:47
Speaker 1: to this earlier. Officers were being pulled in multiple different
27:51
Speaker 1: directions as they were chasing leads from case to case.
27:54
Speaker 1: So at the time some speculated that San Francisco had
27:57
Speaker 1: not just one, but even three step active serial killers
28:02
Speaker 1: operating at once.
28:04
Speaker 2: Well, honestly, that's not surprising with those numbers, right, it's not. So.
28:09
Speaker 1: While I don't know one hundred percent, this is my
28:13
Speaker 1: speculation that the authorities were doing their job, regardless of
28:17
Speaker 1: the community being LGBTQ plus whether it was you know what,
28:20
Speaker 1: a straight white person, color person, I don't know, regardless
28:24
Speaker 1: of who the person was, they were treating a murder
28:26
Speaker 1: case like a murder case, and they were trying to.
28:27
Speaker 2: Solve that case. Well, we can help, yes.
28:29
Speaker 1: We can hope, and that is my assumption. But because
28:33
Speaker 1: of the sheer volume of you know, attacks and violence
28:38
Speaker 1: that were occurring, it was taking their attention away from
28:41
Speaker 1: many of the cases.
28:42
Speaker 2: Well then also too, I'm just kind of thinking, how
28:45
Speaker 2: easily would they be able to necessarily chat with the
28:49
Speaker 2: community that, you know, they had treated so poorly. These
28:53
Speaker 2: these people who could be like helpful might not want
28:56
Speaker 2: to talk to them, which is totally fair.
28:59
Speaker 1: We'll get into that. Oh okay, yeah, trust me, we'll
29:02
Speaker 1: get into that now. In response to everything that was
29:05
Speaker 1: going on, police ramped up their presence in the LGBTQ
29:08
Speaker 1: plus spaces, visiting bars and clubs in the Castro, the Tenderloin,
29:13
Speaker 1: and other districts known for their nightlife. It's actually funny,
29:16
Speaker 1: I recognized the Tenderloin. I don't know if that came
29:18
Speaker 1: from another case that we covered before, potentially, but I've
29:22
Speaker 1: heard of that place before.
29:23
Speaker 2: It could have.
29:25
Speaker 1: Now they questioned patrons, hoping to identify, you know, a
29:28
Speaker 1: suspect or uncover some sort of connections between victims. Right,
29:33
Speaker 1: But even as the investigation intensified, the murders weren't stopping.
29:37
Speaker 1: Frederick Elmer Kappan, a thirty two year old from Washington State,
29:41
Speaker 1: had served as a medical corpsman in the Navy during
29:44
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. He even earned recognition in his service
29:47
Speaker 1: after his time in the military, he moved to San Francisco,
29:50
Speaker 1: where he worked as a registered nurse. Despite being far
29:53
Speaker 1: from home, Frederick remained close with his family, particularly his
29:57
Speaker 1: grandparents and sister in Port Angelus, Washington. But on Monday
30:01
Speaker 1: May twelfth, nineteen seventy five, a hiker found Frederick's lifeless
30:05
Speaker 1: body laying in the sand dunes just a quarter mile
30:07
Speaker 1: south of Ocean Beach, the same area, same area where
30:12
Speaker 1: the first known victim had been found. Now, unlike the others,
30:15
Speaker 1: there were clear drag marks in the sand leading to
30:18
Speaker 1: his remains, which showed that he had been moved after
30:22
Speaker 1: he was killed, and these drag marks suggested he had
30:25
Speaker 1: been moved about twenty feet.
30:27
Speaker 2: That is so creepy. Yeah, oh, the drag marks like
30:32
Speaker 2: and I'm assuming this hiker you know, what's that? And
30:35
Speaker 2: when looked like, oh gosh.
30:38
Speaker 1: Now it also, as far as I can tell, this
30:40
Speaker 1: hiker didn't have a dog.
30:41
Speaker 2: I know, I was wondering where the hell is his dog?
30:44
Speaker 2: His dog would have gone and looked for now.
30:46
Speaker 1: The coroner estimated that he had been dead for approximately
30:49
Speaker 1: ten hours, placing his death or his time of death
30:52
Speaker 1: on the night of Sunday, May tenth, he had been
30:55
Speaker 1: stabbed multiple times, with fatal wounds to his heart and
30:58
Speaker 1: a order. Once again. The murder had taken place in
31:01
Speaker 1: an isolated outdoor location, secluded enough for a private encounter
31:06
Speaker 1: but also for a predator to strike without witness.
31:10
Speaker 2: It's interesting that because it doesn't seem like he's necessarily
31:13
Speaker 2: hiding the bodies per se, right, So it's interesting that
31:17
Speaker 2: he would have like even dragged it at all.
31:20
Speaker 1: Well, there is potentially that maybe the spot like maybe
31:24
Speaker 1: it was a little bit up on a hump and
31:25
Speaker 1: it was a little bit more visible, so he's just
31:26
Speaker 1: drugging out of view or something.
31:28
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, I guess give him.
31:30
Speaker 1: More time to get away and you know, close that
31:33
Speaker 1: gap or so widen the gap of you know, when
31:35
Speaker 1: it was found. So who knows. It's hard to say.
31:38
Speaker 1: Maybe a wolf grabbed him. Maybe I don't. I'm joking,
31:42
Speaker 1: but you know, used to say, who knows. Now. Frederick
31:45
Speaker 1: was now the fourth confirmed victim in what was clearly
31:48
Speaker 1: a pattern, but the San Francisco Police Department was still
31:51
Speaker 1: overwhelmed as they were juggling multiple homicide cases at a
31:54
Speaker 1: time and trying to determine even which ones were linked
31:57
Speaker 1: to each other and which ones would be linked in
31:59
Speaker 1: this case. Right, So, five months after Frederick's murder, the
32:03
Speaker 1: San Francisco Police Department finally released a composite sketch of
32:07
Speaker 1: a suspect. Now, the man they were looking for was
32:10
Speaker 1: described as a black man between nineteen and twenty two
32:13
Speaker 1: years old, slim, around five foot ten and six foot tall,
32:17
Speaker 1: and often seeing navy style watch cap. He was known
32:21
Speaker 1: to frequent bars and restaurants in the Upper Marquee and
32:24
Speaker 1: Castro area. Investigators suspected he might have been an art student,
32:29
Speaker 1: as he had a habit of sketching his victims before
32:32
Speaker 1: luring them away. Now, despite the progress, the sketch that
32:37
Speaker 1: was made of this suspect was never made public. Yeah,
32:42
Speaker 1: which was strange. Now, clearly the police knew more than
32:45
Speaker 1: they were letting on because there was a lot of
32:47
Speaker 1: details released in this They had apparently even identified an
32:50
Speaker 1: actual suspect. Clearly, Now, when I say they had identified
32:54
Speaker 1: a suspect, I mean they had identified a suspect because
32:58
Speaker 1: they had someone who is a suspect who reportedly confessed
33:02
Speaker 1: his actions to a therapist in one of his sessions,
33:05
Speaker 1: confessing to the murders. In this session, what authorities even
33:11
Speaker 1: spoke to this therapist confirming that a patient, yes, had
33:14
Speaker 1: admitted these killings, but without witnessing sorry, any witnesses coming forward.
33:20
Speaker 1: Apparently their hands were tied and they could do nothing.
33:24
Speaker 1: Huh huh, because who's to say this is an actual confession, right?
33:27
Speaker 1: Police might might have questioned this guy. We don't know
33:30
Speaker 1: because this has happened behind the scenes. Might have questioned
33:32
Speaker 1: this guy and he's like, I don't know what you're
33:33
Speaker 1: talking about. No, wow, So what can they do?
33:36
Speaker 2: Oh man? Okay? And like the therapist is allowed to
33:40
Speaker 2: probably I know, there's like so much with confidentiality, right,
33:44
Speaker 2: but they're allowed to spill the beans there.
33:48
Speaker 1: I think when it comes to harm of an individual, yeah,
33:51
Speaker 1: so like harm of yourself or someone else. If you're
33:54
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna hurt myself, yeah, they can call in,
33:56
Speaker 1: like this guy's gonna hurt himself, right, or it's like
33:59
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill some one or I have killed someone.
34:01
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, imagine.
34:04
Speaker 2: Just sitting in a room with this person a and
34:06
Speaker 2: they confessing shit like that.
34:08
Speaker 1: No kidding. Now, That same publication, The Sentinel was dedicated
34:14
Speaker 1: to covering this case, and once reported that you know,
34:16
Speaker 1: police had detained this man fitting the suspects description at
34:19
Speaker 1: a nightclub. Witnesses had even seen him offering sketches to patrons.
34:26
Speaker 1: Now officers approached him and allegedly he dropped a butcher knife. Yeah,
34:33
Speaker 1: the man. Psychiatrists later confirmed that he confessed these murders.
34:36
Speaker 1: But still, regardless of the butcher knife the apparent confession,
34:40
Speaker 1: nothing came of it.
34:42
Speaker 2: Hmm. Okay.
34:45
Speaker 1: Now I mentioned that without witnesses the police couldn't do anything.
34:50
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and I was just thinking too, I guess
34:52
Speaker 2: they don't really like have DNA and all that sort
34:55
Speaker 2: of jazz really back then either, exactly. Now.
34:58
Speaker 1: The unfortunate part, though, was police technically weren't without witnesses. See,
35:05
Speaker 1: there were actually three witnesses, three men who had encountered
35:10
Speaker 1: the man and survived. One of these survivors was a
35:15
Speaker 1: well known entertainer, and he recounted a meeting with a
35:18
Speaker 1: young man who offered to draw his portrait. Another survivor
35:23
Speaker 1: was a European diplomat. A similar experience was had and
35:26
Speaker 1: he had approached it was approached by a man who
35:28
Speaker 1: sketched him before attempting to take him somewhere private. Now
35:33
Speaker 1: apparently he was moments away from going home with him
35:35
Speaker 1: until he dropped a knife from out of his coat.
35:38
Speaker 2: Gosh, why is he just dropping butcher knife from his coat?
35:41
Speaker 2: That is I don't know, not Okay.
35:43
Speaker 1: Now, a third survivor was actually attacked and was even
35:46
Speaker 1: stabbed six times, but managed to escape. The only problem
35:52
Speaker 1: was none of them were willing to work with police
35:55
Speaker 1: or testify really because they were concerned for their own safety.
36:00
Speaker 1: They were that afraid of police.
36:02
Speaker 2: Oh jeez, oh, I hate that.
36:06
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I remember when you were saying that if
36:08
Speaker 1: only they work with police, Yeah, I said, we'll talk
36:10
Speaker 1: about that.
36:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're here, we're talking about that.
36:13
Speaker 1: They were not willing to because of that stigma because
36:17
Speaker 1: you know, because of how they were treated.
36:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is just so terrible, because like it could
36:24
Speaker 2: save lives and stuff, right, But then I mean, you
36:27
Speaker 2: gotta protect yourself too, right, So that's just a really
36:32
Speaker 2: tough position.
36:33
Speaker 1: It's seriously tough and very unfortunate. Now in nineteen seventy
36:38
Speaker 1: San Francisco, we also have to talk about, like it's
36:40
Speaker 1: not just the you know, fear of the police. They
36:43
Speaker 1: were also afraid of, you know, being publicly identified as gay,
36:46
Speaker 1: which could destroy careers, reputations, break apart families. You know,
36:52
Speaker 1: many of these men probably or these individuals were probably married,
36:56
Speaker 1: right and living a day life, you know, covering their
36:59
Speaker 1: their true set els so they could go out and
37:01
Speaker 1: live at night and do what they really wanted to do. Yeah,
37:06
Speaker 1: so they had These men had survived their encounter, but
37:09
Speaker 1: they were just not willing to risk coming forward and
37:12
Speaker 1: without that cooperation, police had no case.
37:17
Speaker 2: Now.
37:18
Speaker 1: During this time, a writer by the name of Armistead
37:21
Speaker 1: Maupin was documenting his life in San Francisco through the
37:24
Speaker 1: Tales of a City series. In his writings, he even
37:27
Speaker 1: referenced the elusive murderer known as the Doodler, describing him
37:31
Speaker 1: as a sinister black man who sat at the bar
37:35
Speaker 1: and sketched your face before taking you home to murder you.
37:39
Speaker 2: I don't even know how that would work like nowadays.
37:42
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking if someone was like just sketching you like,
37:46
Speaker 2: you would be like, holy shit, well you are creep
37:49
Speaker 2: and I'm getting the hell away from you.
37:51
Speaker 1: It's kind of funny because it's reminiscent of some creators
37:54
Speaker 1: I've seen on like TikTok and Instagram and stuff. They
37:56
Speaker 1: go on like trains, and then they'll like sketch a person.
37:59
Speaker 1: They'll give the sketch and it's like, oh my god,
38:02
Speaker 1: that's so cool, thank you, and stuff like that. And
38:03
Speaker 1: you see it with photographers too. Photographers will go out
38:06
Speaker 1: take a photo of someone they have like a little
38:08
Speaker 1: mini portable printer, quickly edited up on their phone, printed out,
38:11
Speaker 1: and give them their portrait. It's no different. It's the
38:15
Speaker 1: same thing that's happening. Just the only difference is this
38:19
Speaker 1: man was like, now I'm gonna stab you.
38:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, But in all those cases that you just listed,
38:23
Speaker 2: I think i'd be like, no.
38:26
Speaker 1: Well, in the videos, I'm pretty sure they always get
38:30
Speaker 1: the consent and talk to the person first. I'm pretty
38:32
Speaker 1: sure it's staged. But regardless, I digress now. Overtime investigators
38:36
Speaker 1: came to believe that the Doodler could have killed as
38:39
Speaker 1: many as fourteen different people during his spree, and here
38:43
Speaker 1: we are decades later. The case is still unsolved, but
38:48
Speaker 1: it was reopened at one point, with police revisiting at
38:50
Speaker 1: least five unsolved murders they believe could be connected. Now,
38:55
Speaker 1: a forensic artists recently updated the original composite sketch aging
38:59
Speaker 1: the suspect to show what might look what he might
39:01
Speaker 1: look like now if he was still alive, and the
39:03
Speaker 1: Doodler would be in his sixties. But that's all we have.
39:09
Speaker 1: That's all we know. The story and the identity of
39:13
Speaker 1: the Doodler. It remains a mystery and it remains unsolved
39:15
Speaker 1: to this day. However, with advances in DNA technology and
39:20
Speaker 1: renewed interest in the case, many people still hold out
39:23
Speaker 1: hope that the killer who terrorized San Francisco's LGBTQ plus
39:27
Speaker 1: community might one day be unmasked and finally held accountable
39:32
Speaker 1: for his brutal crimes. And that's the story of the
39:37
Speaker 1: Doodler that.
39:38
Speaker 2: Is interesting because it's it seems as though they know
39:42
Speaker 2: they knew exactly.
39:43
Speaker 1: Who it was, and then the only problem is prove it.
39:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, But then so you wonder if you know, a like,
39:51
Speaker 2: did this person just stop killing people and what made
39:54
Speaker 2: them stop or did they themselves like get killed or something, right,
39:57
Speaker 2: because an attacker could potentially have like turned on or
40:01
Speaker 2: a victim could have turned on him, you know.
40:03
Speaker 1: That definitely, all it takes is for one victim to
40:07
Speaker 1: also have a knife. You know, if there's stories of
40:10
Speaker 1: this Doodler going around and people I'm sure are you know,
40:14
Speaker 1: arming themselves to protect themselves, and all it takes is
40:17
Speaker 1: for him to you know, stab someone back, yeah, grow.
40:20
Speaker 2: Them in the ocean or something.
40:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Or maybe he's now on a list of
40:25
Speaker 1: an unsolved murder as well because someone else murdered him
40:29
Speaker 1: and now he's actually one of the like you know
40:31
Speaker 1: what I mean, Yeah, he's on the victim list.
40:33
Speaker 2: Wow, huh. It just pisses me off though, Like I
40:37
Speaker 2: you almost want to think something like that, because to
40:40
Speaker 2: think that he took that many people's lives and then
40:43
Speaker 2: just like got to live his life. It's just such
40:45
Speaker 2: a piss off.
40:46
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I hate it, absolutely hate it.
40:49
Speaker 1: Whah people get to walk away like that.
40:52
Speaker 2: Yeah.
40:52
Speaker 1: So yeah, like I say, I do think that there's
40:56
Speaker 1: more that we could have discussed on this episode. So
41:00
Speaker 1: I do recommend you know, doing your own research and
41:03
Speaker 1: watching some documentaries and such on it. I know I'm
41:06
Speaker 1: going to be, you know, in my spare time checking
41:08
Speaker 1: some more stuff out about it and doing a little
41:10
Speaker 1: bit more learning. But if you guys want to join
41:12
Speaker 1: maybe a discussion on this case, I think we're definitely
41:14
Speaker 1: going to open a thread on you know, our patreon
41:18
Speaker 1: to really talk about this one, because I do want
41:20
Speaker 1: to talk about it a bit more. You guys can
41:22
Speaker 1: feel free to message us, email us, or join us
41:24
Speaker 1: on Patreon, where we will discuss this one a bit more.
41:26
Speaker 1: All links are in the description of this podcast.
41:29
Speaker 2: I mean, there's always more, right, Like, the information and
41:33
Speaker 2: research you can do is like endless.
41:35
Speaker 1: Most cases, it really is. It really is.
41:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, but that seems yeah, you cover that well there.
41:42
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's sad. I just like sometimes cases
41:46
Speaker 2: get you right, and this one it just feels. It
41:49
Speaker 2: just feels kind of yucky. I guess at the end
41:51
Speaker 2: of it, it does.
41:52
Speaker 1: And the biggest thing for me is that like they
41:56
Speaker 1: were so helpless, you know what I mean, they had
41:59
Speaker 1: nowhere to turn to.
42:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's almost hard to even fathom that. But
42:05
Speaker 2: then it isn't as well, and I know that people
42:07
Speaker 2: to this day still face that sort of thing, right,
42:10
Speaker 2: So yeah, it just makes you think, yeah and feel
42:15
Speaker 2: all the fields.
42:16
Speaker 1: Shit, you're getting me in the fields?
42:19
Speaker 2: Oh man? Okay, well, good job.
42:21
Speaker 1: Thank you. We appreciate you being here. If you guys
42:23
Speaker 1: want to give our podcast a review, it helps the
42:25
Speaker 1: show immensely, whether it's one star or five star. Hey,
42:28
Speaker 1: it's up to you. We'd appreciate a five story, if
42:31
Speaker 1: I may say so myself. We're an indie podcast, and
42:33
Speaker 1: all these reviews make a big difference.
42:36
Speaker 2: Sure do.
42:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're produced, owned, recorded, researched by us in our
42:41
Speaker 1: tiny home.
42:42
Speaker 2: Yeah there you go. Yeah, So until next episode, stay wicked.