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What I've Learnt - Brendon Gale · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the exciting news is that this podcast is brought to you by Code, Australia's newest digital subscription journalist app.
• 0:09
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• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Upon retirement from professional football, Brendan Gale practiced law with King Wood Mallisons in the banking and finance practice.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: January 2005, Brendan was appointed CEO of the AFL Players Association, where he was responsible for representing the collective industrial interests of all AFL players.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Brendan returned to Richmond as CEO in August 2009, and as CEO, Brendan leads a diverse team of over 150 people, a budget of approximately$90 million, and is responsible for the performance of all aspects of the organization.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Under Brendan's leadership, Richmond's iconic Punt Road Oval headquarters has been transformed into an elite high-performance facility, and the club has achieved record consumer and commercial results year on year, resulting in an over 200% revenue growth since 2010.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Further, with the establishment of Aligned Leisure Proprietary Limited and the Richmond Institute of Sports Leadership, Brendan leads the largest and most diversified sports business in Australia.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Importantly, the club has competed in seven of the last eight AFL final series, winning the 2017, 2019, and 2020 AFL Premierships.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Brendan is a strong diversity advocate and served on the board of the Victorian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: He is also a current non-executive director of both Aligned Leisure Proprietary Limited and ASX listed company, Home Consortium.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, Brendan, so thrilled to have you join us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Great, Deborah.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Good to be with you.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Looking forward to it.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, there's some strong themes of determination and persistence, which seem to be quite prominent traits in everything you do.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's necessary to have those to achieve the heights that you have.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you think those came from?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And really, where did you learn those skills?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think they're innate?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, gee, that's a that's there's so many different ways to answer that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, gee, if I went right, that'll come from a family mate.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, from an early age, I guess, um, to be an oldest or to be heard or to get fed or whatever, you you had to stand up and you had to you had to go for it.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and if you wanted to be if you wanted to be heard, you have to speak up.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that you know, perhaps started from there.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: I my parents separated uh when I was about year eight, year nine.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I think I probably grew up quicker, you know, look, I had to sort of take responsibility for my own life, so perhaps at an early age.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, you know, I guess that sense of independence and um self-motivation perhaps had something to do with that as well.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, look, I was fortunate enough as time marched on to, you know, play football, played sport, played a whole range of sports all through my junior years.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: I uh was was lucky enough to be drafted into the AFL elite system and and you just get swept up in it.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very driven environment, you know, a lot, a lot is asked of you, but you do it together.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: You do it together.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so having that team approach to elite performance is highly motivating.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, when you get results, you're encouraged to strive further and strive harder.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and so it's yeah, a combination of factors, but it's uh not sure if I really answered your question, but it does.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, actually, I there's two things that come out of that that are really interesting to me.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, what number were you in the eight of the kids?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was right in the middle.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: I had two, uh, a set of three older sisters, a brother above me, and then a set another set of three younger sisters.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: So the boys are right in the middle.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: That is just incredible.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, congratulations to your mum, because what an extraordinary thing to have eight children.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: As a mother myself, I'm like in awe.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: But the other thing is that I find, which I think is really relevant to a lot of our listeners as well, and to people that you inspire, that adversity sometimes is the fuel.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really a question like when you had you were young and your parents were separating, which must have been quite challenging just to have eight children, let alone go through that sort of and obviously separation, even if it's amicable, can be traumatic.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting that sometimes it's that that becomes the fuel, and you either take it and let it sink you, or you take it and use it as your power tool.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you clearly did the secondary, from what I understand.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: What was your take on that?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's a really good observation.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's something you know I carry with me all through life.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um that uh, yeah, like I look back now as a young, but my son now is a new knight, and uh so a very at the same age essentially.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: And looking back now, for the next two or three years, I really, I really struggled.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And but I wasn't introspective enough.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't in touch with myself enough to understand what was going on.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: But when I look back now and how that manifests itself in so many parts of my life, I realize now I struggled with that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: But but yeah, there came a time, you know, I got to uni, and that it was time to sort of grow up, to man up and to take responsibility for my own life.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, no, clearly with with the love and support of mum, that but the sort of my father for a few years wasn't in my life.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that it it was, it was a I guess it was a stimulus or the impetus for the next stage of growth, next stage of growth, next stage of maturity.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and even to this day, you know, we um you know, one of the things we do well at Richmond Football Club is we fail well because failure is inevitable.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um I remember hearing a quote at the time and something that really resonated with me.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: It was years ago when Alan Border was the all-conquering captain of the Australian cricket team.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: He held the record for the most number of centuries, but he also held the record for the most number of ducks.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's almost like to be successful, you must fail.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's so true.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so important to for young kids, particularly, what like when you talk about the struggle for those few years, for example, that was really what you needed in order to find your place.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you hadn't maybe had that struggle or that, even if it wasn't introspective, something was going on there that led you by the time you got to uni to go, wait, I gotta shift this, I gotta find, you know, the the power somehow to accelerate out.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I mumba, look, I would have grown and developed and matured um organically anyway.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: But but I just think after a couple of years when I lost my way, this was like the shock eventually to get me back up on track.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, so yeah, you know, it's it's it's not, you know, look, it's and our parents loved us and supported us and educated us after us, but sometimes marriages fall apart.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's complex.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: That happens.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I think I judged, I judged a lot.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think I carried a lot of probably shame with myself and but didn't have the maturity to realize, you know, that's it's okay, it happens.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's let's just move on.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so but but yeah, failing, disappointment, self-doubt, anxiety, um, these things are inevitable.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: But if you if you get, you know, make sure you that they're teachable moments.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're they're they're the moments when you have to learn more about yourself or your team or your organization or your challenges or your competitive landscape.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps it's when you do your most learning, if you have an open mind and open heart.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is such a such a relevant and pertinent um statement because so many of us go through it.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the, as I said, a lot of my listeners, it's not an uncommon theme.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly, many of the people that I do have on the show have been through something and have have used it to, as you say, grow and and to improve their ability.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you've clearly done that.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're clearly quite a disciplined guy.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you'd have to be both for law, as you know.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: My my partner's my husband's a lawyer, and it requires enormous persistence, focus, determination, not dissimilar to football, actually, but different.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: But so clearly, where where do you think you honed that skill?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because you must have been multidisciplinary for sure.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, look, I think once again, I think if you go right back at the formative years, I look at my mother and I look at how hard she worked, and you know, she worked uh, you know, through that period, she worked, you know, four jobs, four jobs to support us.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And we saw that and we witnessed that.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: We be bore witness to that, and the and the sacrifices and the discipline and the commitment.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and she still would contribute to the community and social organization.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so we saw that.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: So and we just thought, well, there's virtue in that.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then you come into football, particularly elite football, and it's um it is, you know, it's a highly it requires discipline and and focus and sacrifice, and it requires honesty when you do fail, it's honestly reflect and renew and reset.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you don't have those things, um you just get left by the wayside.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: So because you don't reach your true potential.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you know, 12 odd years as an as an elite athlete.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: Although having said that, it was quasi-professional back then when I was playing and really did hone that.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, to this day, just having that the notion of a balanced life and a life of moderation and balance and you know, you know, mind, body, spirit in balance is really, really important to me.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I also love the way that you refer to your mom and your mother as a as a powerful force in your growth and your, you know, watching what she had to do.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: What else did your mother teach you?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And also you probably have a great sense, and and I glean that from much of what I've read about you, um, a reverence for the role of women in life, because you know, football has now embraced much more the female role, but it was very much a male bastion for a long time.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it still is to some degree, but you clearly have a great understanding.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what did mum teach you in that sense?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, I just think, you know, you know, a couple of things was just a commitment to the family and the community, a profound sense of selflessness and humility.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, like a lot of women, their generation, her her role is to, you know, rightly or wrongly, a life of service to the family.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: And she thought that was her role and was important.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: There was virtue in that.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: She was a woman, uh, she's a woman of you know great faith, I think as well, and that nourished her.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think having a sense of spirituality, and I'm not talking necessarily about a particular religion, but being in touch with, I guess, some of the more powerful forces, you know, and connection of family, community and to country, all these sorts of things are nourishing.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I think she, you know, spirituality, um, you know, clearly work, ethic, commitment.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Also, that's just that humility.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, but she's always, you know, chipping me about getting ahead of myself or you know, just you know, just cutting you down when you're just going, you know what, you're not that great, or you know.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Keeping you keeping you grounded.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Good old mum, that'll be no tall poppies in our family.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I think I think remaining, you know, I think it's I think it's um, you know, remaining grounded and you know, shooting, shooting for the stars, but keeping your feet voluntarily grounded is I think it's a really potent combination of attributes for a leader, you know.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've got to be ambitious, you've you've got to present a compelling vision of the future to all your stakeholders.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to be grounded, you've got to be visible grounded, you've you can't have all the answers.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you're always learning.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, she's still teaching me now.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's great.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: So you're you're obviously pretty close to her.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what about and your other siblings?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I think also growing up in a big family, I also grew up in a big family, you learn about teamwork, don't you?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: I actually learn it really.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yours is a really big family, but but conceptually, do you think that that also helps you because you're clearly a team player, whether it be working in a law firm or working it on the field, you have to understand that.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's not everybody doesn't always understand that.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something that comes.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I think I mean, sharing, I mean, you know, um, I'm I guess I'm really big on this notion of sharing, having a shared vision of the future, having you know, shared values, having a shared sense of purpose.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but but so yeah, like I think and and um you know, being in a big family when you're young and appreciable, I mean, everything is shared.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you you share the table, you share food, you share space, you share um, you know, you're out we grew up in the northwest of Tasmania, we had a we had a very rich life in terms of access and freedom and experience, not rich materially.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean No, I understand, yeah.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like so talk to me on that.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: So so the landscape is what you're saying, the the the way that you're yeah, and you share that so my siblings would be you know climbing trees or playing a whole range, any sport was accessible, was available.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: And and so yeah, I think being I was just reflecting on Ash Barty's retirement the other night.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: And and I've because she's a pretty Cambridge supporter, I've got to know Ash.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and she's just a lovely woman, let alone an athlete.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: And to some people it's implausible, but the night before she retired, the Australian cricket team were playing in Pakistan, and after two or three really tough days, they bowled Pakistani batters out um in a session and put them in the box seat to win win the test.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I thought I was explaining to someone, they would go back to the hotel room, they would, they would, they would sit down, they'd have dinner together, they would be up and about, full of confidence, telling stories about the experience of that day, and and they'd be in a really good place.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas Ash Barty, if she wins a tournament, she goes back to the hotel room um to reflect on what had just happened, or she might have one or two coaches.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: If she loses, it's even worse.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: So my point is you know, sharing for me teamwork um and the value of that um come to me very early.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really very when I reflect on what you've just said, it's something I'd never really thought about before.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: But as a tennis player, you're quite, you know, you're up against your opponent, but there's not that same collegiate element, is there?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're very much on your own out there, literally paddling or batting or hitting your ball.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas you're right, I can see that things that you've gravitated towards have that team spirit, and that's very important to you.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: But also it makes sense because it helps you when you when you do hit the ground, you got other people to lift you up and you know, or if you're up here, they bring you.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really that's really interesting reflection.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: I remember it was um uh it was a quote from that movie Into the Wild years ago, but it was happiness is only real when it's shared.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's um, you know, that's the shared experiences, it's those shared moments, um, and that's it's the shared hardships and working your way through that, they're the things you look back on.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um absolutely.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't, we don't, you know, even as a football club, when you get around and talk to some of the guys that start, we don't get around and talk about premierships.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about the shares like that in 2020 we won premiership in Queensland of that hub COVID-affected year.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: We don't talk about it was just the journey, the stories, the crazy stuff we went through to get there.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's the shared experiences that are the most powerful.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the exciting news is that this podcast is brought to you by Code, Australia's newest digital subscription journalist app.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Code brings you the stories of sport from the field to the locker room to the training track.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Code is your destination for thought-provoking reporting and all the latest sporting news, taking you deep into Australian and international sport.
• 16:58
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• 17:08
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• 17:20
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• 17:30
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• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're also clearly, you know, committed to family, and that's very much also a big focus of the club.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so that also dovetails well into what you're describing.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like family is obviously very important to you as a father.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what do you see that you can imbue, obviously, other than what you've just outlined?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, clearly that's really important to you to have that strength, loyalty, commitment to your family.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: What does it give you?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And how do how have you ri, I suppose, resonated that in your own family life?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, it gives me, I think, in this the mad, crazy world of football, which can be all consuming things in perspective.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, my my primary job is as a husband and a father and a provider.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's my so that's first, second, third.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, when you've lost three or four games in a row and you feel the weight of the world on your shoulders.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the the family and that involvement and the fulfillment you get from that helps put things in perspective.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'll give you a little example.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: I had uh a meeting in Canberra a couple of years ago, and um my daughter and ours at uh first year uni, but when we won the premiership in 2017, we're up there the next year, we took the premiership cup, and now on Turnbull was the Prime Minister.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so we visited his office and he wanted a few photos, and um, and so we we put a photo up on Instagram or the Richmond Instagram, you know, the socials, and there was the customary feedback, you know, very, very partisan, and you know, people think it's fantastic, other people critical.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: And but my daughter must have posted and she said, Dad, can you pick up Subway on the way home from the airport?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, I've got a photo on the ground and checking up with the prime minister with a little bit of a little bit of head bubble, you know, little bit of uh self-indulgence, and then she quickly brings you back to work and said that I don't care about that, I just want the subway.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that is brilliant.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um Instagram.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: That is brilliant.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So not only directly to you, but publicly.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Indeed.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what kids do, don't they?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: They just give you that sense, yeah.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it is pretty funny because it wouldn't matter, you know, in other words, how how high you are, kids will always go, wait, like bring you back down to earth.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, um, so from that perspective, also, in terms of would you want your kids involved in the football world, to what degree do you like embrace that?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think it's, you know, what what do you see with the next gen in terms of football?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, look, I would like to see them involved in in you know, I think sports very healthy, you know.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: I just think it there's a there's a and I'm talking about football.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, most sports, particularly junior community level, there's a place for everyone, there's a role for everyone.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: And in terms of um, you know, just the the mere act of participation of the health and fitness and vitality and all those reasons.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Community, yeah, the community sense really important.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing better than a Sunday morning going to watch your son by footy on it, you know, with a little tucker.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love that whole I miss all that Sunday morning, you know, where you just sit and watch the kids.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so it comes at a time where I think sport's becoming more and more important in terms of community, community building, because when we look around us, there are so many forces at work that are sort of uh dividing us, you know, and um and you know, I sport is one of those, you know, it's it's almost a cultural, social institution sport.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I get I guess in the AFL is an elite sport, it brings communities together um and um helps strengthen communities and and and it's very purposeful.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I you know I've got another daughter, she's very much involved in the arts and and music and dance and production and and yeah, that's the same thing.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's purposeful um and it's nourishing.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I look at a young boy who likes his footy, I don't force it down his throat.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't care less if he plays footy to be honest or not.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's healthy.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so what you're saying is sport's healthy anyway, and it's true.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I look at the kids that play sport, they have something to anchor them through those teenage years and through that sort of early 20s, it just gives them a sense of something other than all the other stuff that gets thrown at them.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, from from your perspective, do you think there's a change in the culture of footy?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that the, for example, the mental health, you know, the approach to mental health, the the support of playing.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Players that are struggling, or you know, that was just when you and I were growing up, like what, 15, 20 years ago, it wasn't sort of talked about.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was like now it's become very, very on the front page to be able to say, you know what, this player's struggling mentally.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: What can we do to support him?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's a huge change, huge side change.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, once again, sport, and particularly the elite level, I guess, of the we which we're part of.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, there it's there's such competitive environments, a-type males, and now women obviously play out for football, but very driven.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about the fitter, faster, stronger.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you just you just you arrive, you just fit in, you know, you just fit in.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think for years and years we had young men coming into football clubs, you know, just wanted to fit in, just wanted to you know, act the right way, say the right thing, mix with the right people, wear the right, you know, but as the people and players from different socioeconomic backgrounds and and class backgrounds and religious backgrounds probably didn't feel as they had permission to be themselves.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: So they wear these masks and sometimes you know that would lead to sort of you know toxic behaviors when you're just trying to be something you're not.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: And but more importantly, how can you be at your optimum when you're not yourself?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the big learning, I think, in football is is that that you know, developing leadership, encouraging people to be themselves, encouraging to know who they are, and that have that self sense of self-worth and self-expression is a really important part of developing leadership in sport.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's just as important as kicks, marks, and handballs, as you're you know, 100 meters sprints, and and also it happens to be a huge, I guess, front-end preventative approach to mental health and resilience.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you if you've if you've got the freedom to be yourself, if you're in an environment where you're encouraged to be yourself and where you feel safe and included, and your dignity as a person and difference isn't just tolerated, it's celebrated.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's where it's shifting.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And look, that's something where we've really zeroed in on in the last few years.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And and the other part of that, Deborah, is when you have the license and the freedom and the and the courage to be proud to be, to be yourself, to be authentic.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if that means be vulnerable, so be it.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: But when you when you are like that, it lends itself to connection.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because when someone invests in you authentically, openly, and vulnerably, then what happens?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you don't run away.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: I want to connect.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: You want to connect, yeah.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: You feel and and and you want to invest back, and connection is the basis of trusts, and trust is the bedrock of teams.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And this coming from someone like you, and for you know, you're at the top in terms of you've got a very important role in the players' association, making sure that this is across the board.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got the Richmond story, but you've got the like uh working with other players, other teams to ensure that this is intrinsic and entrenched, yeah.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the well, yeah, yes and no.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like I did work with the players' association years ago, and you know, and that's more than a union, more than a trade union, and and we're looking out for the you know, the development of all players, but you know, I work with with a club, so I'm solely focused on mission free club, right?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: But but so no longer, but still have a line, because I know you're not there now, but do you you still have a role or a presence?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you're influenced.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, not at all.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: But what happens, what happens is, you know, um, is this incredible sense of imitation in the AFL.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: And once you're you know doing to be a successful club, uh, you know, they'll pick you apart and find out, well, what are they doing?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: What's their game plan?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: What are the elements of their program they're doing that we should be doing?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, we we really sort of, I guess, changed the way we wanted to develop leadership in our players, you know, five, six years ago.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this, um, and to be honest, we didn't make it up.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: It was off the back of some stuff Brene Brown was doing in the state.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, I'm impressed that you know Brene that you're into Brene Brown, and you know, this is wonderful to hear football.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but she's been to our club, she's been to the, she's been to a game, she's been to the coach's box.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: She's brilliant.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: I love her.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it sort of catches on, you know what I mean?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh in different ways.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's it.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: To be to be an elite sporting team, as much focus goes into understanding of self and self-worth and self-expression than how much you can bench press or how quick you are or your skills.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, an incredible amount of work goes into that, which is which is um, you know, I think really positive.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's also transformational, to be honest.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like the, you know, listening to you and the way that you're talking, and clearly it's working for the club.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the enrichment's a real, I mean, it's a trailblazer in terms of both success, but also obviously, you know, you look at the formula and go, what is going on here?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: How is this success?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and what you've just alluded to is clearly part of the part of the success story because it's about internal reflection, looking beyond, as you say, the bench presses and the fitness, which is obviously paramount.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: But that that is pretty impressive.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that's something that you picked up when you were working with the players' association, or is it something that just came through the club, or how have you seen this?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: We had a tough year in 2016.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we're making we're making progress as a team through you know 13, 14, 15, making finals, not getting far.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: And at 16, we had every expectation we'd continue on that trajectory.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we went backwards.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: We actually had a tough year.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was one of those years that was really, really tough.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and in a club like ours, when the experience falls short of the expectation, you know, the baseball bats come out, supporters, members, the media sort of inflame whole thing.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, but we had a really good look at things, and it was uh it gave us a sort of sort of well, not a burning platform, but an opportunity to go back and have a real long look under the hood.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And we're making great progress.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: And um, but we thought, yeah, like how we just there was something um, you know, about our leadership development and I guess the lack of connection and lack of growth.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and we just, yeah, we sort of arrived at this, we had we arrived at this point at the same time with really, you know, the the coach, you know, the captain, we we in making sense of that year and how we're gonna move forward, you know, we were exposed to some some TED talks from Breno Brown, there's some literature.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: The coach went on a week-long course to Harvard Business School and authentic leadership.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was no one personal, no one reason.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: It just sort of we arrived at the point at the same time.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when any sort of transformational change, when you've got your key leaders who arrive at that place, they've got an open mind because things aren't something needs to change, and they've got open hearts to new ideas and new approaches, things can happen.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and so this whole new approach to developing leaders and and people took whole.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: It certainly did, and it certainly worked.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, to be honest, became a you know a template for many other clubs to review the way that they were doing things.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you a funny story too.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a it's an it's not funny, it's a it's a quite a powerful story.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, yeah, love of power.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Then the I guess the responsibility came on the administrators and the staff.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, how you know, how can we create this environment um of openness and authenticity and and and and and vulnerability and connection and trust?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: How can we go back?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what resources do we put around the people to get them to tell their stories and and review or be proud to be?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: And um, because we have to think long and hard about that.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: And and but we come up with this uh what the senior coach called Triple H, a Triple H session, where you talk about a hero, hardship, and highlight.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I like this.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it guys just to get up and talk, you know, in their own way about hero, hardship, and highlight in their life.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is on the public record uh because it's been uh covered in a feature article.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a young player called Brandon Ellis, who is a two-time premiership player coming, and he got up and he talked about he was at a stage of his career where he just plateaued.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: We probably expected a bit more, he just sort of plateaued.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he got up and talked about his hardship.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: And he talked about growing up in the housing commission flats in North Carlton with a father's terminal illness, which we knew about.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: He talked the general uh circumstances, you call them modern-day poverty, but he talked about the shame he still carried.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that he he didn't have any clothes, you know, and he wanted to hang with his mates and have a good pair of jeans, and and he just couldn't because his parents couldn't afford.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: So he's to steal clothes of clotheslines.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's when he's 13, 14, 15.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: So here he's 20, 21, 22, and he carries that shame.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just sort of sense of that, you know, maybe maybe I'm not deserving of being a great, maybe I'm maybe I'm not worthy, maybe I don't deserve success, maybe because of who I am and what I've done.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh so this is this is a very vulnerable, it's just share Yeah, and very trusting, actually.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, from that point on, it sort of set the scene where people it's it's not it's not shame, it just is.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: People people do things they aren't proud of, it's just who we are, but sometimes circumstances demand it anyway.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: He went off, um, he went to another level and you know became a really important player for us.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so do you think that sharing that when he did share that, which required, as I said, a lot of trust.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think when he shared that, and just to clarify, was it that his father was unwell?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you said with that?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: His father was unwell.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, his father was unwell.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think cancer at the time is working through, so you don't think it could work.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was he's in a real tough situation, and I think in that context, it was sort of understandable why a young kid would yeah, and to be honest, I I think it also shows what drives us, and and that people can, you know, do what they gotta do sometimes, and and that's okay, but it's also maybe he then like flew, as you say, maybe in some ways, once he it was cathartic because what you're saying when he got to tell people and they went, Yeah, all right, mate, well, you're all right, yeah, that's okay.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: How did the club respond?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or how did that intimate experience for the other players, how was that for the well it just it's just set the ball rolling.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: So when he was one of the first up, he really put himself out on a limb and um um um and he he it's obviously something he'd been wanting to probably get off his chest and talk about, and and he did it, and you know, there were tears, and um, but you know, it it's out, it's not the worst thing in the world.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, guys have understand of empathy, and and then and and it drew people to him.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's strengthened connection, and connection is trust, and the and the best teams, the best organizations, uh high trust environments.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's like a parenting role of sorts, in a way, you guys, yeah, with these young players, you know.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the football club to some extent is, it's a huge responsibility.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: We bring these young men in and now young women, and they're you know, sometimes um they're 17, 18 years of age, and they're yeah, and they meant to go into this pressure corker environment and and um and just to fit in.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and so you know, so we we work really hard to, you know, to to really dip, we've got a huge responsibility to develop them, help them grow.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we believe that starts with self-knowledge.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: So look within.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: If we start lifting heaps of weights and running time trials, let's look within, let's help you understand who you are, you know, and and um and and own that and and and be proud to be.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think that that'll filter down?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was actually thinking, that's so incredible now.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: The foot footy clubs have, or particularly what you're outlining, it's great for our as a as a mother of a son.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just love that, that men can have that that sort of be in the play football, but can have that opportunity, as you've just outlined, to look within and to be it for it to be cool.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's actually a good thing.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think the future football?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're on the cusp of an exciting footy season.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's already, you know, kicked off, so to speak.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're all pretty excited.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I am a Carlton supporter, but you don't have to like, it's okay.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like we can still we can still connect, but I'm excited.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Carlton's playing a little bit, although I've been told not to get too excited.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see where we go.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: But um, what about what you see for the future of this next season and where we're heading and and what are you feeling now that COVID, we hope, well, it's up and down.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do you see is up ahead for us all at the footy?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, I think I think the good thing about football and the AFL football um is you can't you can't look too far ahead.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: It is it is really uncertain.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that that uneven that evenness of competition and that um uncertainty of outcome is is the thing that which sustains the game and sustains interest in the game.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Now, here we you know, we're gonna let cart win every so often, Deborah.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: That that's fine.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: But they're they're three zip.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: We really do appreciate it.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they're they're threes here, and their supporters are up and about and say, How good is this?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is our year, you know, it's fantastic.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: And similarly, who else is another Collingwood's had a couple of lean years and they're up at the so it's that hope for a better day.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um now, if there's four teams like the EPL and England that win every year, it you know, it doesn't make for much of a comp.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: So so right now we've had an indifferent start.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: We think we know why, we're trying to address it, and um, and we're hopeful of you know getting back on the saddle and getting our season underway, but we've become too far ahead.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I'm I'm so that's exciting.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's exciting to have crowds back at footy.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's still some uncertainty with with COVID in terms of managing our teams and the availability of our players, but that responsibility is ours to manage.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm really excited to go to watch my boy play footy on Sunday.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: We've got footy community footy back, and that's just oh how good.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's the best.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing better than you know, Sunday morning coffee and a and a donut watching your kids.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: But look, I really want to thank you so much for joining us on the What I Love Learned podcast.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love chatting to you.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much more I could talk about with you, but um, I know our and you've been really just so insightful, and we've learned a lot from you.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure our listeners will love this podcast.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: So go Richmond, but go blues as well.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Bye-bye.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: Bye-bye.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Love Dev.