Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 2 Episode 6 – Chris VandeLinde | Preaching that Shapes Culture
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Chris Vanderlin, welcome to the Better Preaching Podcast. Chris VandeLinde: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Glad to be here. Dr. Frank Weller: Yes, good to have you on. So we met back when I was doing my DMI dissertation. I I used there were three guys that I sort of profiled for that dissertation and you were one of them. You're at the same church now that you were at then. Chris VandeLinde: That's correct. I've been here just crossed over eleven years at Cornerstone in Shiloh, Illinois. Dr. Frank Weller: Со телас about cornerstone. Chris VandeLinde: Well, Cornerstone is an independent church. they s the church actually has roots back to nineteen five. There's a couple of mergers, both of them worked. churches that came together to reach kind of a population in a new community or kind of merge their communities together. the most recent one was about 20 years ago. We've been in Shiloh, which is a community just off of Interstate 64 and the 12 miles east of St. Louis. And they launched into a community here. Church was running about the the merger put two churches together, they were running about 350, 400, and they planted and built and sort of attacked missionally this community. And then within a series of months, they doubled. They were running 800. They didn't know what to do with themselves. They were, you know, God had it blessed beyond measure. And that pattern has kind of continued over the years. I got here 11 years ago. The church has just seen a really exciting, especially the last three years, a really exciting growth movement. But I would say kind of up and out. You know, there's not only the numeric growth and seeing new faces and reaching people we've never reached before, but really deepening. Our discipleship. We do a lot with disciple making and really helping people take ownership of faith. So that's kind of the heartbeat of who we are, and I'm excited about what God has down the road. We're just currently, we are weeks away from a 20,000 square foot expansion worship center to give us a little more space. We're still in that original space that was built almost 20 years ago now that we are just busting at the seams, which is really a fun problem to have, and we'll be moving in here. Dr. Frank Weller: One of the reasons I profiled you in my dissertation, Chris, is because you were really effectively reaching millennials and of which you are one. Now, you're you're sort of a Cusper Gen X millennial guy. Yeah. Chris VandeLinde: Yeah, I'm kinda I'm kind of on the I guess I'm on the bridge. I'm I'm a n I'm born in nineteen ninety six or sorry, nineteen I graduated in nineteen ninety six, so born in seventy eight, so I'm I'm kind of on the bubble. Probably lean more Gen X in mindset than I do anything else, but yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: But at the time in twenty seventeen when you and I connected, you were speaking fluent millennial. So that's why you got profiled for the Yeah, yeah. what's the makeup of the church like now in terms of generational cohorts? Chris VandeLinde: Well that's a compliment. That's a compliment. you know There's I would say we we have a lot of millennials. You know, the average age in our church is between 28 and 40. we we are leaning old I think as I age a little bit and as our staff kind of continues to stay together and age, we are leaning a little older than maybe we were 10 years ago. some of that's really healthy, some of that's great. We are taking efforts to kind of continue to move the needle on that. We talk a lot about the dot is a concept that was as talked about years ago. The dot. I heard it from Jerry Harris at the crossing where you know you look at three to five years from the the age of the key leader of the senior leader, especially the preaching leader, and the church is going to continue to trend naturally with that. So you're gonna have to always do work to go behind that because you're only ever getting older. And so we're taking a lot of efforts to preach to and lead people who are millennials, and now of course the generation behind them, which is a really exciting, fun, dynamic generation and generation. Generation Z. So looking for and now we have another one coming and the Gen Alpha as well. So I think there's a lot of intentional things we do with that where we just continue to try to do the things that reach, you know, what they're the things that answer the questions they're asking and provide the outlets for them to live out the gospel. Some of that stuff is doesn't matter what generation you're in, God's created it for every people, but in the practical ways that most relate. to and help reach people in those generations. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I love that. And I want to talk more about how you're being intentional about doing that. But before I do, I want to pause for just a moment and say that the Better Preaching Podcast is powered by Great Lakes Christian College, where our new master's degree in practical theology brings students face to face with passionate professors for real-time instruction and genuine community. Students make friends, they ask questions, they get real-time feedback from accessible professors who love God and revere scripture. You can get practical. And go deep at GLCC for more information about the new Master of Arts and Practical Theology, you can go to glcc.edu. You mentioned, Chris, that you're intentional about connecting or preaching to that dot. What are some ways that that you live out that intentionality in your preaching? Chris VandeLinde: A big part of that is looking for and continually, like I said, trying to answer questions that are already being asked. And not just telling the truth. I I think every preacher ever that I've ever met that had, you know, any kind of a heart for God's word, which hopefully they all do, desires to speak the truth. We want to speak the truth in love. That's something we sometimes forget and we want make sure we do, but we want to speak the truth. And so we preach God's word and we preach it wholeheartedly. I feel like one of the jobs of the preacher is not only to understand the text and preach it, but to preach it in a way that it is Answering the questions people are already wrestling with today. We can preach our way all the way through God's word, and all of it is his word. I believe it, all of it is wholeheartedly his word. The challenge is sometimes that we don't we don't necessarily preach it in a way that is relevant to the needs of the people that are listening. And so it's not that God's word isn't relevant, but we have to do our job in providing it the answers to the questions that are being asked or the things that people are wrestling with. So I preach primarily in series. I I preach primarily even if I'm doing a book of the Bible, it's built around a series. It's answering a question or or wrestling a topic that usually it's kind of like, you know, I'm getting ready to preach through Galatians this this year and I'm doing six weeks and six chapters of Galatians, but it's gonna be talking about freedom and what freedom really looks like because Paul really addresses that through Galatians. So instead of just, you know, only it being textually driven. It is the backbone is the text. The presentation is answering questions that are being asked or that people are wrestling with in life and trying to bring r bring real life application. I think that's part of what our job is as preachers. Dr. Frank Weller: I think so too. And specifically where Galatians is concerned, have you thought through what some of those questions are that your listeners are asking and and I'd I'd be interested to hear what one or two of those questions are that you hope to answer during that six weeks in Galatians. Chris VandeLinde: Y somewhat. I have a lot more work to do on that to be honest with you. I I kinda gave you a forward thinking one instead of a backward one. I a bit Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Well feel free to give me a backward one, right? What I mean, what are the questions you think Gen Z and Gen Alpha are asking right now? Chris VandeLinde: I think there's a ton of questions about identity. we we talk about identity all the time. And part of that is because doesn't the scripture actually talk about identity all the time? Isn't there, you know, the chosen people language? All through the Old Testament and all through the New Testament about what it really looks like. I'm I'm preaching today for our students at student camp, or tomorrow for our students at our student camp. And I'm talking about Colossians 3, you know, set your mind on the heavenly realities or the things above. Well, what is that? The heavenly realities are are the incredible things that are happening because of what God has already done and what He's already made possible for you in Christ. So that's identity. That's so much of that. So a lot of it's based on identity. A lot of it is based on like how can I make sense of the world around me and in light of scripture? How can I make sense of the world? Well, you can make sense of all the world around you in light of scripture if we're able to learn how to overlay God's word clearly. we talk a lot about what it looks like to live out practically faith. I think so often the generation that we're facing with millennials and definitely the one behind them with Gen Z, they're asking questions about how do I do this in a way I don't want to just follow the pattern that was given to me. I'm looking to do it a right and better way. And so I think it's important for us to to be looking at those things. We're constantly preaching those sort of things and talking about that. So just an important an important way that we address it. Dr. Frank Weller: I agree with you that so much of what we do in preaching is about identity. And I I think probably the two most important issues we can address from the pulpit are identity and ecclesiology. Identity, which is who am I in Christ? And what does that mean? What's the what's the impact of who I am in Christ? What's the effect of who I am in Christ? But then ecclesiology, who are we as a church? Who is the body called to be? Chris VandeLinde: Mm-hmm. Dr. Frank Weller: And what is the relevant outcome of that? Who are we called to be in Christ as a church? And so to me, almost every sermon comes down to either identity or ecclesiology. Chris VandeLinde: Yeah. And if I was to add one, maybe just it's not really an addition, it's more of a morphing, is just theology, like the the who God is and helping people understand what otherness, what holiness in in God actually like the character of God I've just mentioned again mentioning Colossians three. If you're setting your mind on heavenly realities, you're you're owning, embracing and and taking heart in and then setting as your foundation the things that God already is and the things that God has already done. And then ecclesiology, what do we do out of that? So helping people understand the reality of the character of God, just constantly circling back to who he is. And I think that's a a big part too for me of like the constant challenge in the Old Testament, the call from God to remember. Remember what I've done, remember who the people were, remember where I've gone and where we've come, it and remember who I am and my faithfulness and my promises to you. Constantly calling the people back to remember. And I think that we gotta remember. Yeah, we're we're you know, things are moving so fast in our culture. Every in the news cycle is here today, gone tomorrow, and we're on to a hundred other things. And so often we have to step back and help people remember who he is and what that means that he's now called us to do and what that does say about our identity. So I'm right there with you. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, because our identity is found in Christ. And so if we if we don't have a strong theology, if we don't know who God is, how can we know who we're called to be because we're made in his image? Chris VandeLinde: Exactly. We we have nothing to stand on, right? We're start coming up with it on our own. Dr. Frank Weller: Chris, who taught you how to preach? Chris VandeLinde: Great question. I mean, I you know, I went into really well just a short round the barn. I I actually went into ministry thinking I was gonna be a lifetime student guy. I was doing youth ministry as a student as a college student. did a lot of youth ministry stuff and was in youth ministry for 15 years and kind of thought I was gonna be a lifetimer. in that of course a lot of preaching. I was doing a lot of preaching, teaching stuff, but never really thought of myself as I'm gonna end up being the preacher. And so I I think I had almost like a a mindset of like that's not quite my domain. You know, I'm I tiptoe in it, but that's not my main spot. And I really didn't spend as much time swimming and preaching until God really sort of transitioned me there. But I would go back and say a few people, my my youth minister growing up, his name's Pete Eisenberg, he was an incredible communicator and I think really challenged me with like crafting, like putting together the flow of a message and how you would deliver That instead of just whatever's on your mind or just reading the text and then you know actually putting together thought and and compiling it was a big part of that. I had a professor in in Bible college named Doc Reese, David Reese, Dr. David Reese, which you may be familiar with, who was my, you know, I taught a couple of my homiletics classes in college, and his passion for preaching was very inspirational to me. so and then you know, when I got into youth ministry, I think I started that's When podcasts started popping up, and I could get access to all of these voices across the world that we that I never knew I could, you know, I never knew about before. And I was pastored by the likes of you know Andy Stanley and Craig Rochelle and the big name guys at the time, and and actually those guys are still doing their thing today, faithfully, and just was pastored by them and I think taught how to preach by listening to a lot of preaching, is is how. I would describe it most of all. Dr. Frank Weller: And you you had mentioned to me that one of the biggest transitions for you in in moving from youth ministry to preaching or student ministry to preaching is that God was preparing you to to lead and to set culture. and I know that's been a big part of what you've done there at Cornerstone, hasn't it? Chris VandeLinde: Yeah. It has been. I mean I it was yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: How how how do you how how do you how does that come from the pulpit and from your preaching? Chris VandeLinde: Man, I feel like it comes maybe most I mean, there's a lot of what I do with our staff, but mostly I get the opportunity. I I feel like preaching is more than just telling the truth. Preaching is helping set people into that ecclesiology, right? It's like How now shall we live? What should this look like? And even specifically, what should this look like for this people in this season in this community? And so I I mean everything I'm doing is culture building. I I feel like every sermon has culture built into it. If I ever get to the end of the sermon and there isn't no one could no one in our church could come up with anything that is about how it shapes us as a people, how that now means we interact and how we live this out, I feel like I've really missed the mark. I'm not wanting people to just believe, I want people to live. So I I spend a lot of energy in helping craft and shape culture through, I mean it's it's probably in every sermon that I that I preach because I feel like that's a major part of what my calling is. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, and I think, Chris, when you have a average family attending church one point seven times per month, culture mission has to be a part of every sermon. Otherwise, the entropy of just people not being there and not being really enculturated within the the the the church, it's easy for that mission to drift or or them not even to be able to articulate it because they're just not there. Chris VandeLinde: For sure, and I'm I mean we definitely see that trend in our church. And I think of it like, I mean, I I just finished a series called Better Together. I did a whole eight-week series on the church, on like what the what the one-anathers look like. How are we supposed to interact with each other? And one of the things we talked a lot about in that series is like our church is only gonna hear a third of the series about how we're supposed to be together. And it's kind of like a family. And I I have a kid in college now, and so she's away at college for you know weeks and weeks, months and months at a time. And our family dynamic is very different as a result, you know. And when she comes home, and this is a little bit of a loose example, but she's not operating on the same wavelength as the other three of us are, and we've got to adjust to each other to be the fa one one at one time there was no question, we were like every day, man, we're running the same race, we're doing the same this is what we do, this is how we are, this is how we love each other, this is how we operate. Well, it's it changes when you're not there very frequently, when you're not interacting very often. And so there's this constant reminder in that illustration to church, a constant reminder of this is who we are, this is what we do. This is how we're called to live, has got to be woven into everything we preach. Dr. Frank Weller: It's in the epistles. So obviously if if Paul's writing and reminding people, hey, this is who we're called to be as a church, then implicit in that is the idea that they needed reminding. Chris VandeLinde: Well, constantly reminded, right? Like the I I've joked sometimes about where Paul says, like, bear with one another. Like why did he need to say that? Well, because we can be unbearable. We we Dr. Frank Weller: Yep. Yeah. Chris VandeLinde: Bear love one another. Did he really need to say love one an after everything he's already said? Did he really need to say love one another as Christ has loved you? Forgive one another as Christ has forgiven. He needed to say it over and over because we have really short-term memory, don't we? And and there's a constant need to be reminded of who we are because of whose we are. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's right. Chris, by the time our better preaching podcast listeners hear this, the World Cup will be in the rear view mirror. I just wanted to check and see how you're doing after last night's loss. USA lost to Belgium. Chris VandeLinde: Yeah, we just we just saw that USA yeah, I'm a big soccer guy. I've been my son still plays high level soccer. I played in college and love it. It's my favorite pastime. I still play actually in an adult league, old guys league sometimes. And I am recovering a l I was disappointed with the USA showing last night, but also, you know, reality checks are good and it'll be good to I think we're still moving forward as a as a nation in soccer. And I think this World Cup is a talk about culture. I mean we were talking about how the culture of the church, what this is doing for our nation with soccer overall is a massive jump forward, even though our team is out. I think this World Cup has been incredible for the soccer culture of our country. Dr. Frank Weller: Think there's any other sport in America where I hear about the the fill-in-the-blank culture. We're not talking about the football culture or the baseball culture. There does seem to be in in the soccer community at least a sense that, hey, we're taking steps forward, that this isn't about this season or next season. This is about a long-term future for football in America. And I'm not a soccer guy, but all the soccer guys I talk to, including you, feel like. This is a good place we're headed. Chris VandeLinde: It's a really good place and I mean obviously it doesn't matter in the real things of the world, but for the soccer wor I mean, this is the only s I'm and I'm gonna say this in a really like firm way, it may that may be arguable, but I I think it's the only major sport where the US is not leading the charge. So we, you know, we lead the charge with when we say we have the World Series, we made that claim of ourselves it's literally just the American series with people that came to play here, but we call it the World Series. We call it, you know, we call it the Super Bowl, but it's really just the best football players on the planet. They all play here. I mean we already have dominance in all of the other major sports. We've set the tone. Dr. Frank Weller: Mm-hmm. Chris VandeLinde: and yet soccer, we're we've always been behind the eight ball and we are yet well behind the eight ball as a overall competition of our national team, but also in even the way we have club sports and so I I think this is it's interesting. It's kind of a fascinating, you know, cultural shift for the United States sports outlet because we're we're used to just being the ones that everybody comes to us and in this case Most of our best players are going other places to play. So it it's really a fascinating one, but we are taking steps forward. And soccer is unlike any other sport. And I don't mean that in the play of the game. I mean the worldwide sport is so unified across the world. There's literally a league where the best teams from every team every single club and league come together and play one another to see who's the very best. That doesn't happen in any other thing because we already have them all playing here. So pretty fascinating and I'm excited about what that'll mean for soccer in the US. Dr. Frank Weller: In 2015, I was in Chile. I was preaching and teaching down there. And the place we were staying was about a mile away from Estadio Nacional. And we could hear in we're inside the house, windows shut, doors shut, and we could hear the crowd at the stadium a mile away. That soccer culture is just a different culture. I guess my question for you is: what can we learn from the soccer world in the church? Chris VandeLinde: Such an incredible lesson, honestly. My I'll I'll add on an example. My brother worked in Brazil for a summer w during his college internship. He's a intercultural studies guy, missionary. He's been leading a mission for now for more than twenty years, but he did a summer in Brazil. It happened to be the World Cup summer, and Brazil won the World Cup while he was there. So talk about like I mean, literally for the entire World Cup, whenever there was a major game on, that everybody just closes their entire shops, their Their schools are shut down, they send everybody home. Go home, watch, you know, go find somewhere to watch the game. Most of them don't even have at the time, they didn't even have TVs. They have they're like peeking into you know shops. And I mean, just the most amazing kind of image of of unity. So I think the biggest thing is the unifier. When there are, and if you notice, even in this World Cup, and if if you're watching this and you never watch the World Cup at all, just watch 30 seconds of the videos of teams singing their national anthem. You can watch, and we've had so much controversy in our nation over the national anthem and whether people are gonna kneel and all that. If you remember a few years ago, people that are in countries where they're not being provided for for their countries. I mean, their countries are a hot mess, and they know that. I mean, it's not like they they know where they live, they know where they come from, but yet the unifying nature of like shouting the national anthem at the top of their lungs and you know, wearing some some unifying pride for their Is something for them to hold on to. And sometimes we get so spoiled that we get it reversed. Now, without getting into the politics of all that, I think what the church can learn is that don't we have, I mean, that is about soccer. That is about wearing a flag on a shirt. And we have a unifying identity and a unifying call that is so much bigger and better than anything sport can ever even begin to come up with. I mean, the lowest thing on our ladder. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, right. Yeah. Chris VandeLinde: is miles ahead of anything that a soccer game or a nation could ever come up with. And yet we I I think we let that get diminished. So the church, man, let's let's just like come together and embrace the reality of even the differences, if you kind of think about the teams and the nations. I mean, we got America playing Iran and Afghanistan playing it. I mean they weren't in this World Cup, but like we got all these nations that some of them literally like hating each other, shooting each other, who come together and play soccer together and are unified huddled up in the middle of the field after the game. There's something bigger than those things. And is it soccer? No, the bigger thing is the like the amazing call of Christ that He's given our lives that we've got to call our people to stand on the unifiers and not spend all of our time on the things that cause differences. Dr. Frank Weller: Right. when we come back, I want to talk with you a little bit about you you said some interesting things about AI being both useful but not trustworthy. And you think that that's going to lead to kind of a resurgence of the analog church, I'll call it. I'd love for I'd love to hear your perspective on that when we come back. But I want to pause and say another word from our sponsors at Great Lakes Christian College. You know what? Your week is full. You have sermons, staff meetings, visits with your people. GLCC gets it. That's why our new master's degree in practical theology offers convenience without sacrificing community. You'll get real instructional support from professors with actual pastoral experience. That's more face-to-face and less busy work so you can grow without burning out. It's a new day for a new degree in theological education built for leaders who want depth and not fluff. You can keep serving where you are while earning a degree that serves you. More details. can be found at glcc.edu. You know, I've been saying for a little while that that I I think it'd be useful if we saw a reappearance of paper Bibles in church. A love you, a love you version, I love the access to the electronic r resources online, but I don't know, there just seems to me that at least when I've got a Bible in my hands, it's easier for me to focus. you said something in in our In in in our pre-meeting notes, that you think you're going to see a resurgence of things like paper Bibles and church gatherings and live preaching. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on that. Chris VandeLinde: Sure. I mean, I I'll first say that I really appreciate AI. I use AI every day. I mean, we don't have a choice anymore. We can't do anything without it pumping us to AI, but I intentionally use AI every day for research assistance in a lot of ways with things. So I'm not a hater and I don't believe that AI is instantly the Antichrist or something. I think there are some serious dangers that we've got to watch out for as preachers to We are we sometimes can put a little too much trust in something that doesn't hold the Holy Spirit. But we've gotta I we've gotta be careful with that. But I think there's a something that's gonna happen beyond all of that. And I I you know I've read a couple of books lately on, you know, the coming wave of what's happening with If we go to our our ultimate s end game with AI, what where all this goes is maybe we're all, you know, slaves to computers or whatever. I don't know about all that. Let me address the a realm I live in with the church, which I think is coming sooner than later, is that all of what's happening in the internet is that you can no longer know. I mean, somebody can watch this podcast and go, I don't think Frank was really there. That was that didn't look there were some things that were quirky about it. I think it was AI Frank. He wasn't actually doing the interview i don't even know for sure that i'm talking to the real dr frank weller right now because there's so much out there now i literally made a call yesterday our air conditioner went out i made a call to our to an air conditioning company and for three or four minutes i was talking to the ai on the service end and I figured out that it was because it was a little slow and but pretty soon it's not gonna be slow. I mean we're we're never gonna know if we're talking to a real person watching a video that actually happened with the things that the person says they actually said. So it's getting to where we can't tell the difference and we don't know if what we read or hear is true at all. And as soon as the internet becomes completely non-trustworthy, like we We cannot know that what we're seeing and and hearing is real. I think we start to pull back to like what can we know? You know what we can know? Our neighbors, paper Bibles, sitting in circles and talking about life together and praying for each other. We know that's real. We're we're facing those people. So small groups. I think they are gonna get an elevation. I think paper Bibles are gonna be, they already are actually. And the amazing thing is if you look at the stats, in the midst of AI going through the roof in terms of usage, paper Bible sales have also elevated significantly. What is that saying? I think there's something to the tangible. I this is printed. You know, there's I I saw a re a a stat or a story a a year or so ago that in China, if you download the Bible. The downloadable Bible in China, the government protected Bible that you can download, has been s completely scrubbed. So the Bible that you can download in China is like a quarter or less of the real Bible. They've taken out anything that they felt like was contrary to their their purposes. Well, they kinda know we're not getting truth. We're not getting the full. So what's real? Printed text, small groups, praying with people, in-person church. I think we're gonna see a resurgence even more. We talked about that 1.7, 1.9 attendance thing. I think there's gonna be a day where the online church thing is a convenience and that's great, but it does not provide and we've learned this since COVID, right? It does not provide all of the things that is intended for us in faith, even in a church service, it just does not quite get there. And we're gonna see a resurgence in in-person church. We're gonna see a resurgence in tangible, touchable, feelable things as the AI and digital world becomes less trustworthy and less tangible. Dr. Frank Weller: I agree. And so I think we it's interesting you use the words that the you think we may be about to experience a golden age of preaching or another golden age age of preaching. I've been saying the same thing about Christian higher education. I think we're looking at the front end of a golden age in Christian higher education because I can I can get information from AI, I can watch a YouTube video, I can download Bible project and and learn a lot about the Bible, but at the end of the day you cannot outsource spiritual formation to a bot. It's gotta be done face to face, it's gotta be done person to person. Chris VandeLinde: Just like you can't outsource physical transformation to a video. You gotta actually just like lift the weights and run, you know? so yeah, I totally agree. Dr. Frank Weller: Right. Yeah. Yep. Well, listen, that was a really quick thirty minutes. I'm looking forward to to continuing the conversation in our next episode, Chris. but appreciate so much you being on. Chris VandeLinde: Happy to do it, man. God bless. Dr. Frank Weller: All right, well, just a reminder that the Better Preaching Podcast is sponsored by Great Lakes Christian College, where we are training the next generation of servant leaders for the church and world. If you're interested in pursuing preaching as a calling, you can find out details about our college at glc.edu. Until next time, remember that better preaching makes a bigger impact.