Latest / How To Protect The Ocean / Ocean Books and Solarpunk Stories: Todd Medema's Climate Heist Novel to Inspire Action

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Ocean Books and Solarpunk Stories: Todd Medema's Climate Heist Novel to Inspire Action · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
When somebody's talking to you about climate change, how do you feel?
0:03
Do you feel like this kind of like eerie feeling inside this anxiousness,
0:07
this bad feeling about what's gonna happen in the future, thinking about
0:10
the future, whether you should have kids, a family, how are we gonna survive
0:14
this when you know, politicians are not really working on this business,
0:17
people aren't really working on this, or some people are, some people aren't.
0:20
Some people are doing the opposite.
0:21
It must feel pretty crappy after a while, but imagine if you read something
0:25
or watched something or did anything.
0:27
And it actually made you feel optimistic about climate change, especially
0:31
about climate change adaptation.
0:33
Imagine, just imagine if you read a book that gave you hope on climate change.
0:39
Well, that's what we're gonna be talking about on today's episode of
0:42
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
0:43
I've got author, new author, Todd Maima on the podcast today.
0:47
He's talking about his new book called How to Surf a Hurricane.
0:51
Just imagine the thought of that Surfing a hurricane, how to surf a hurricane.
0:55
It is this.
0:56
Fictional book about, you know, like kind of a bit of a sci-fi book about
1:01
someone who, it's a heist, it's in a solar punk, novel type of genre.
1:05
It's kind of cool and it's out for presale right now, so I
1:08
want you to go out and get it.
1:09
But we're gonna hear from Todd about the book, the process of
1:12
writing a book, especially looking at something that's not often the
1:16
narrative that we hear, especially when it comes to climate change.
1:19
So here we go.
1:20
Let's start the show.
1:23
Hey everybody.
1:23
Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
1:26
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find
1:29
out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean,
1:32
and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action.
1:36
Today we're gonna be talking about a book called How to
1:38
Surf A Hurricane by Todd Maima.
1:40
This is his first time writing a book.
1:41
Well, first time going through a publisher.
1:43
He wrote a book, a novel in high school, but this one is really special.
1:47
It's really about.
1:48
How to look at climate change in a very different way, an optimistic way.
1:53
A lot of us don't really think about that when we hear about climate change.
1:56
A lot of doom and gloom associated with it.
1:58
You know, sea level rise.
2:00
You have sea surface temperature increases, ocean acidification,
2:03
coral bleaching, flooding, droughts, wildfires, all that stuff makes
2:08
it really difficult to think about climate change in a positive way or
2:12
to think about life in the future.
2:14
With climate change in a positive way, a lot of us get anxious about it.
2:17
A lot of us, you know, just feel really crappy.
2:19
It kind of turns our stomach a little bit, especially when you see how people
2:22
are dealing with it, how politicized it's, but we don't often hear about in
2:27
our regular lives or in our fictional books, or on a podcast or on a video where
2:32
things are gonna be fine, things that might actually turn out to be okay if we
2:36
take it seriously, if we take actions.
2:39
You know this book that Todd wrote is going to give you that optimism
2:44
is going to say, you know what?
2:46
I think we'll be okay as long as we take action.
2:49
And the book isn't gonna inspire you to take action.
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In fact, you can go to the link below in the show notes or in the comments below.
2:55
If you're watching this on YouTube, you can go and you
2:57
can say, Hey, you know what?
2:59
Like, here's a link to how to protect the ocean.
3:01
Todd's got all these resources for you and strategies and tips on how you
3:06
can get started protecting the ocean.
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I think this is where books need to go.
3:10
I think this is how resources need are built.
3:12
They inspire and then they lead you and guide you towards actions.
3:15
What we're trying to build for a long time in a project, which I've probably
3:19
already announced by now, but it's going to be amazing and you can take part.
3:22
So this is a great interview.
3:24
Todd's an amazing human being.
3:26
He's already in the clean energy industry.
3:27
He always wants to do something for climate change, like to reduce
3:30
climate change, to help the planet, telling you to spend time for
3:33
yourself in nature, and that's how we learn and get inspired to protect.
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This book is gonna help you do that.
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I can't wait for you to hear the interview.
3:40
So here's the interview with Todd Maima talking about his
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book, how to Surf a Hurricane.
3:44
Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after.
3:46
Hey Todd, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
3:49
Are you ready to talk about climate and the ocean?
3:51
Hey, Andrew.
3:53
I am.
3:54
Thanks for having me.
3:55
Love it.
3:55
I love it.
3:56
This is gonna be a lot of fun because we're gonna be talking, you know,
3:59
about climate change in the ocean, but in a little different way.
4:01
A lot of times when we talk about climate change, it's the doom and gloom.
4:04
It sucks.
4:05
It's no fun.
4:06
You know, we get climate anxiety, we get overwhelm, and there's, we gotta find a, a
4:10
different way to be able to discuss this.
4:12
And, and Todd, when you reached out to me to be like, Hey, look, I wrote
4:15
a book, uh, you know, in a, in a sort of a fictional character way,
4:19
but talking about climate change.
4:21
Talking about oceans in a much different way than the way we
4:24
normally talk about it in society.
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And I want to discuss it on the podcast.
4:28
And I was like, you know what?
4:28
This is a perfect way to talk about different ways to discuss,
4:32
you know, climate change.
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Just think about climate change.
4:34
So I was like, yes, let's do it.
4:35
We booked it, we're here, we're ready to talk about it.
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And I can't wait to do that.
4:39
But Todd, before we do that, why don't you just let us know
4:41
who you are and what you do.
4:44
Yeah, so I'm Todd Mamma.
4:46
For the past several years, I've worked directly in clean energy, uh,
4:50
on solar and good energy storage.
4:52
But really outside of that, uh, I've become extremely passionate about climate
4:59
change and, and how we tackle this.
5:01
And I've tried to explore it and tackle it from many different
5:05
lenses, not just from the technology side, but from the political side.
5:09
I've like volunteered resistance climate lobby.
5:11
I've liaised with senators from.
5:14
Like the local volunteering side, running green groups, you know, even from the
5:18
personal lifestyle side, you know?
5:20
Mm-hmm.
5:20
Lived car free cut meat outta my diet and just really trying to understand
5:25
what is this problem, what are our solutions and how do we get there?
5:30
Yeah.
5:31
I mean, I mean, that's the, that's the question, right?
5:33
That's the big, those are the big questions that we, that we, we'd been
5:36
trying to solve for quite some time growing up in, in this type of world.
5:41
You know, and, and hearing climate change, it's, it's been often discussed
5:45
in terms of climate denial and everything.
5:46
So as like as you grew up getting into the clean energy industry, how did,
5:52
like, why did you follow that path?
5:54
Like, you know, growing up probably a lot of people, even maybe parents or aunts
5:59
and uncles or like in your family or even friends and, and their parents and stuff.
6:02
They may have talked in, in, in a different way of climate change,
6:05
like it's not existing or, you know, there's a lot of controversy around
6:08
it politically, it comes into play.
6:11
Like what, how did you like get steered into clean energy industry?
6:16
Yeah.
6:17
I mean, that's, that's a great question.
6:18
'cause my family background is more the red state life.
6:21
Right, okay.
6:22
Questions about climate change.
6:24
But I think what it really comes down to is, as a kid, I
6:27
spent a lot of time in nature.
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I was a boy scout, we were hiking, camping, kayaking, you name it.
6:33
And so I just really came to appreciate nature.
6:36
Yeah.
6:37
And as you know, as I was exposed more and more to like, Hey, we're
6:40
doing these things that are destroying nature, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
6:43
No.
6:43
Like I want, I want nature to be here, not just for me, but like.
6:46
For, for my friends, my family, my kids.
6:49
Yeah.
6:50
You know, I want to preserve this.
6:51
Yeah, I love that.
6:53
I mean, that's what we all want, right?
6:54
It really comes down to just, just being in nature and, and
6:57
spending time in, in nature.
6:59
Um, and so you follow, you follow a path of clean energy.
7:02
So how did you, like, what was your role?
7:05
Like what, what did you do in that industry?
7:07
Like what was your title?
7:09
Yeah, so my title is a software product manager.
7:12
Okay.
7:12
So I help these clean energy companies.
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Develop software that helps them operate more efficiently,
7:18
helps them design Oh, cool.
7:20
You Solar power plants that are cheaper for their customers and just trying to
7:24
drive down the cost of, of clean energy.
7:27
That's interesting because that was a big problem when it first came out, right?
7:30
Solar panels are too expensive.
7:31
Like, you know, we put on homes, it's almost like I, I'll never forget, like
7:34
I've grown up in a, in a very, uh, like in a, in a very, like a time where
7:38
technology increased immensely, you know, from getting up on the, you know, from
7:43
getting up from the couch to have to turn the channel on the TV to having like
7:46
massive remotes that are like, you know.
7:48
A foot long with like 30 buttons to, to, you know, demarcate the
7:52
channels and stuff like that.
7:53
Then to go into like massive TVs where the backs were like deep and
7:58
then you get to flat screen TVs when they were super, and all these new
8:01
technologies were super expensive when they first came out, and I remember.
8:04
Uh, vividly when plasma TVs and flat TVs became super cheap, it was, it
8:10
almost felt like it was overnight.
8:11
It was like when they figured out how to make them properly,
8:14
like, and, and efficiently, right?
8:16
Where they can mass produce them, where they're not $2,000.
8:19
Every time they come out, the, the, and, and like, if you look at them now,
8:22
you can get like a 42 inch TV for what?
8:26
Like $300?
8:27
$400 and great.
8:28
That's crazy quality.
8:29
Yeah.
8:29
It's insane.
8:30
Right?
8:31
I feel like that, like the solar panels industry went through the same thing.
8:34
Like we had solar, we had friends on the, on the block that had solar panels
8:37
back in the eighties, and they were huge.
8:39
They were ugly.
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Now it's almost to the point, you know, where, where certain companies have
8:43
them as like tiles on your, like a like.
8:46
Know on your, on your roof.
8:47
Yeah.
8:47
So they, it just like, looks seamless, you know?
8:50
Uh, so there's a lot of, there's been a, a huge sort of change and
8:54
shift in, in making them, and, and we don't really realize that software
8:59
is a big part of that into how to make those, it's all computerized.
9:02
How to make it more, uh, efficiently.
9:05
Was that a hard thing to do?
9:07
Like, is that a hard thing to get into in terms of a software
9:10
engineer or software programmer?
9:13
Um.
9:15
You know, I'm gonna say it wasn't too hard for me because it's
9:18
something that I've always enjoyed.
9:20
Yeah.
9:20
Yeah.
9:20
I actually got into it from video games.
9:23
Uh, okay.
9:23
Yeah.
9:23
When I was a kid, I loved playing video games.
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And then my best friend in elementary school actually was
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like, Hey, did you know you could program your own video games?
9:34
Nice.
9:34
And like what?
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So I just like taught myself how to make, honestly, they were
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quite terrible games, you know?
9:39
Course I didn't know how games at that point, but like, you know, um.
9:43
And sometimes I get people asking like, oh, it's the tech industry.
9:47
Like, you know, I'm not a software engineer, there's
9:50
nothing I can do to help.
9:51
Yeah.
9:51
But like there's.
9:55
So many different angles that we're tackling this problem from.
9:57
Mm-hmm.
9:57
And really what I've seen is like every skill set is useful.
10:02
Yes.
10:02
Like if you love talking with people, if you love doing detail work, you
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know, if you love like being out in nature, like there are people who go
10:10
out and like install these solar panels.
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So like if you don't want to desk job, you can help the clean
10:14
energy revolution in nature.
10:17
Yeah, it's fantastic.
10:19
It's, it's, it's a problem that needs to be solved by everybody and every skillset.
10:23
Right?
10:23
And I think it's just a matter of literally plugging into the problem and
10:27
the solutions and understanding how to get there and how your skillset can, can go.
10:33
It's really interesting 'cause I have a lot of people who come in,
10:35
it's like, I wanna protect the ocean.
10:36
I gotta become a marine biologist.
10:37
I'm like, no, please don't.
10:38
We have so many, there are so many up and coming marine biologists, like,
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please, like, what's your skillset?
10:43
Oh, you know, I'm in business or I'm a banker, or I'm this, I'm like.
10:46
Use it, use that stress, like that skillset, use that experience to
10:50
like, let's look at funding models.
10:52
Let's look at, you know, ways to program software, ways to program,
10:55
you know, ways to make better and more efficient, like make solar
10:58
panels better and more efficient.
11:00
Like, you know, there's so many different ways.
11:01
I interviewed someone exactly who's putting like solar panels on boats.
11:04
Like, there's like a, like they put 'em in on sailboats and stuff and like.
11:09
Into the boat and you're just like, this is amazing.
11:11
Like to even come up with that idea, you need problem solvers, right?
11:14
And that could become in any kind of format.
11:16
Obviously, you know, developers and software engineers like you guys are
11:19
really good at that because you're, you know, that's, that's the skillset that
11:22
you bring, the value that you bring.
11:23
But there are other people who, like business people who are like skillset.
11:27
They have skill sets that are problem solvers, and they
11:29
just do it in different ways.
11:31
And I think we need that.
11:32
And you have done it in a lot of different ways, which we're gonna
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talk about in a, in a minute.
11:35
But it's really cool to see that.
11:37
So as you're in this, this, you know, the, the, the clean energy industry,
11:42
you're doing these software, uh, models and you're, and you're, and
11:45
you're coming up with these programs.
11:48
Where do you go from there?
11:48
Like, okay, this is like, how come you just didn't be like, this is my thing.
11:52
Like this is great, I'm gonna just continue this.
11:54
Or did you find like something else that interested you as you
11:57
were growing through that industry?
12:00
Yeah, I mean, I, I love doing multiple things.
12:03
I have a hard time sitting still.
12:04
Gotcha.
12:05
So I, you know, I'm still in clean energy doing this software, product management.
12:10
Yeah.
12:10
Um, and.
12:13
On top of that, I've always asked myself like, what are, what are ways
12:16
that we can move the needle on this?
12:18
And actually the, the reason I started writing this book about two years
12:23
ago was this, uh, someone shared a stat with me that humans are like,
12:28
I don't know, something crazy, like 30 times more likely to remember a
12:32
story than a piece, like a statistic.
12:35
Hmm.
12:35
Yeah.
12:36
Because like we are such story-driven Yes.
12:39
Creatures.
12:40
Yeah.
12:41
So, you know, I really got to thinking like, are we communicating
12:44
about climate change wrong?
12:46
Is that, are we shooting ourselves in the foot?
12:48
'cause we're just like, numbers, numbers, numbers.
12:50
Yeah.
12:50
And everyone's like, I, what do these numbers even mean?
12:53
Um, and I don't know, like the same day.
12:56
It was kind of one of those, you know, funny coincidence, someone
12:59
else sent me this idea of like,
13:02
in climate we have these three story archetypes.
13:07
Either the tech billionaire genius will save us all.
13:12
Future generation, the kids will save us all.
13:14
Mm-hmm.
13:15
Or the future is gonna be a unrelenting hellscape that we deserved.
13:19
And like, you know what?
13:20
You're totally right.
13:21
I see one of those three archetypes and basically every story and
13:24
yes, we need something else.
13:25
Yes.
13:26
Oh my gosh, it's so true.
13:28
But there is another one.
13:29
I feel like there's the science I told you, so you get that a lot
13:32
in like apocalyptic movies, right?
13:34
Where you have like the geologist or the marine biologist who's just like I told
13:38
you, you shouldn't have messed with that.
13:39
And then No, nobody, everybody ignores that person and then all
13:43
hell breaks loose and they have to help, they have to help solve it.
13:46
Yeah.
13:46
That's, that's kind of that third one of like, you know, we, we were warned
13:50
and like, the future's gonna suck.
13:51
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
13:54
And you know, in some ways it makes sense.
13:58
Like, you know, listen to your elders, listen to your scientists,
14:00
like they're telling you.
14:01
Yeah, for sure.
14:02
You know.
14:02
But I think also, like one of the things that's really missing is like,
14:06
if you're not a tech billionaire, if you're not like a teenager.
14:10
There, there's no other stories about like how you as just like an ordinary So true.
14:15
More like middle aged person help contribute in your lifetime.
14:20
Mm-hmm.
14:20
You know, like so many of these, even, so many of these stories
14:23
take place in the far future.
14:25
And I'm like, well, what about the next like 20, 30, 40 years?
14:29
Like, there's so little covering that.
14:32
I, I agree.
14:33
I also think too, as you were mentioning that I'm, I'm thinking like, you know,
14:36
we expect these heroes to come out and solve those problems, whether it
14:39
be a tech billionaire, whether it be a teenager, and we've seen some of
14:43
those come out and they get destroyed.
14:47
You know what I mean?
14:47
Like, people will go after a 16-year-old girl or a number of 16-year-old girls
14:51
and just tear her to pieces because.
14:54
They don't think she can, they, they don't think that she can do anything.
14:58
Or like you have a tech billionaire who tries to come out with somebody
15:00
who's like, oh no, all these conspiracy theories come out.
15:03
Like they're trying to control the weather.
15:04
They're doing this, they're doing that.
15:06
And, and they, and then in a way, people look at that from the outside.
15:10
It's like, well, I can't, I don't wanna be in that position.
15:13
Like, I can't do anything.
15:14
Yeah.
15:14
Because then I'm gonna be called out for anything, you know, anything I
15:17
say is gonna be called out and, and I don't want to be treated that way.
15:21
And so it almost like.
15:23
Propels you from doing it a little bit and just being like, no, I'm
15:26
just gonna stick, stick in my thing.
15:28
I'm gonna, you know, grab my, my plastic drink like, or my drink
15:31
that's in a plastic, you know?
15:33
Mm-hmm.
15:33
You know, single use container.
15:35
I'm just gonna continue on my way, you know what I mean?
15:37
And I, and then, so it kind of suppresses us a little bit from doing it.
15:40
'cause we're like, oh no, I can't, that's gonna destroy my career, destroy my life.
15:44
I don't want to, I don't wanna do that.
15:45
Right.
15:45
There's, there's a lot of that.
15:47
Yeah.
15:47
Yeah.
15:48
And so that's where like the third part of this puzzle came in, that like.
15:52
When it really clicked, like, okay, I'm gonna write a book.
15:55
Yeah.
15:55
For a while it's kinda like, oh, I'll just, you know, like try
15:57
writing some short stories, but like, okay, I'm gonna write a book.
15:59
I discovered this genre called solar punk.
16:02
Have you heard of it?
16:02
Solar Punk.
16:04
Solar Punk, okay.
16:06
No, I've never heard of that.
16:06
Okay.
16:07
I, it's a pretty new budding genre, so, okay.
16:11
You know, it's, it is, it's not like it's classically defined 'cause people
16:13
are still figuring out what it means.
16:15
Yeah.
16:15
But it's, it's kind of the opposite of cyberpunk.
16:18
Okay.
16:19
Like cyberpunk is.
16:20
Dystopian future with like technology ruining everything.
16:25
Okay.
16:25
Solar punk, in my mind is a hopeful future where we as humans, as
16:31
individuals and communities work with nature to build a better future.
16:36
Yeah.
16:36
Yeah.
16:37
It's like, ah, that makes a lot of sense.
16:40
Yeah, and that tracks, I mean, you look at any conservation project that's succeeded.
16:44
It's done as a community.
16:46
It's done with the community.
16:47
It's done in like in collaboration with that.
16:49
It's not just done by one person who's like trying to hog all the attention.
16:53
It's done as a community.
16:54
So that, that makes sense.
16:56
As, as a book.
16:56
Why, why do you think this is such a, like, why do you think it's only new now?
17:00
Like why do you think people are only coming out with it now?
17:02
This type of genre?
17:05
I have two.
17:06
Two hypotheses.
17:07
Okay.
17:07
One is that fear cells.
17:10
Right.
17:10
True.
17:10
Like we are so biologically wired to be afraid of things that like
17:14
if you just took the same story, like if you took iRobot Yeah.
17:17
And turned it into like robots are gonna be just amazing and
17:20
there's no problems at all.
17:21
People like literally wouldn't believe it.
17:23
They wouldn't buy it.
17:23
Yeah.
17:23
Like yeah.
17:24
It's gonna be a total flop at the, there's no conflict.
17:27
They need conflict.
17:28
Yeah.
17:28
Yeah.
17:29
Um, and
17:33
I would say the other one is like these stories.
17:39
There's utopian fiction, but it's always so far off, right.
17:42
Star Trek, like infinite free energy, universal basic income, et cetera.
17:47
But it's like 400 years from now.
17:49
Yes, but like where solar punk really like means something to the genre is like
17:54
kind of the next a hundred years, like the messy middle where we're trying to
17:57
figure out where, where hope is like.
18:00
A question rather than kind of a given in a, in a distant utopia.
18:03
Yes.
18:04
Uh, and what I learned as I started writing this book and thinking about
18:07
like, Hey, am I gonna publish this?
18:08
How do I publish it?
18:10
Uh, it turns out it's actually very hard to publish near future books like this
18:15
because they're like instantly dated.
18:18
They expire so quickly.
18:19
Right.
18:20
You know, any, any like predictions you make in your book in five years,
18:24
they're gonna turn out to be wrong.
18:25
So your book is a very short shelf life.
18:28
Get it.
18:28
I get it.
18:29
Yeah.
18:29
So now, now, so how do you, so, so this like solar punk type of, of novel,
18:36
you know, it, it, it expires quickly.
18:38
So why, why do you think people are catching onto it now, like,
18:41
or are really enjoying it now?
18:43
Is it just because it's so near future?
18:44
People wanna know what the near future is.
18:47
People want to know what the near future is.
18:49
And I think it's also this rebellion against the oversaturation of
18:52
fear and anxiety in our world.
18:54
Hence the punk a part of it.
18:56
Yeah.
18:56
People are just so desperate for, tell me something besides,
19:01
the future's gonna suck.
19:02
Yeah.
19:02
And like when you, when you really think about it, like, the
19:05
future is what we make of it.
19:06
Yeah.
19:07
And what we make of it is really informed by the stories that we read.
19:10
So in a way, it's almost an act of creative rebellion to see
19:14
like, we're surrounded by fear.
19:17
Everyone thinks the future's gonna suck, but like, what
19:19
if, what if it does work out?
19:21
Yeah.
19:22
And like you share that idea with people and you're actually like helping to
19:25
build that future through storytelling.
19:27
Right, right.
19:28
And, and I mean, I, that's, that's the beauty of it, is to kind of give
19:32
you, is to unlock that hope in you.
19:34
I think hope is a very powerful, you know, powerful way to do it,
19:37
but you still, you can still have conflict, but give hope in that way.
19:41
Right.
19:42
Yeah.
19:43
This, uh, was probably the hardest part about writing this book was.
19:48
In a book about hope, what is the conflict?
19:51
Yeah, yeah.
19:53
You know, in a book that's not dystopian.
19:55
Mm-hmm.
19:56
Why are, so the book is a heist.
19:58
Right?
19:59
Right.
19:59
And like usually in a heist it's like, why would someone participate in this like,
20:02
super dangerous, illegal thing if there's like nothing going wrong in their life.
20:06
Mm-hmm.
20:07
Uh, so it's very interesting to navigate that and, and find
20:11
something that was hopeful and yet.
20:13
Yeah.
20:13
Dangerous and exciting.
20:14
Yeah.
20:15
So I want you to, as you kind of alluded to it, but I want you to
20:18
give us the, the, the, without giving too much away, you know, we know
20:22
it's a, it's a solar punk heist.
20:24
Give us a little bit of a premise of what people can think about.
20:27
Like what, what would be on the back of the book, what's gonna be on
20:29
the back of the book to give a like that, that, that, that lull to of
20:32
like, Hey, how do I wanna read this?
20:35
Yeah.
20:36
So if you've ever asked the question of what.
20:40
Lives in our life.
20:41
Climate change adaptation will look like.
20:44
Mm-hmm.
20:45
You're gonna wanna read this.
20:46
Okay.
20:47
And if you've ever read in a climate book and just been
20:50
like, dear job, this is boring.
20:52
And you want something that's actually fun to read.
20:54
Yeah.
20:54
This is first and foremost, uh, like high stakes, thrilling page, turning heist.
21:00
So like, if you want something enjoyable to read and where you just happen to like
21:04
get some new ideas about our future, like.
21:07
Check this out.
21:09
I love that.
21:10
I'm gonna, I'm gonna clip that, that's gonna be the commercial
21:11
for, for this type of book.
21:13
I, I think it's great.
21:14
And, and you know, you want something that, like you're on the edge of
21:17
your seat as you're reading it.
21:18
Um, you know, it, it's, it's, you're, you're following the story
21:22
closely, but you're seeing, I, I assume what's happening is you're
21:25
just seeing the world that they live in while they do this heist.
21:28
Right.
21:28
And how they've adapted to climate change.
21:30
Uh, almost in a way, and the way I'm thinking of it, like.
21:34
I can remember Dem the movie Demolition Man.
21:37
Whereas in the future, I don't, I forget how many years in the future, uh, but
21:40
like Sylvester Stallone, Wesley Snipes, they're in there, they've been frozen.
21:44
They all of a sudden they're discovering this new future where they've adapted,
21:48
you know, no violence, no this, no that.
21:50
And then all of a sudden this is what they live in and they, they're
21:52
trying to change or they're trying to like stay true to themselves.
21:55
It's a really interesting thing where I think the major restaurant,
21:58
the nice restaurants were Taco Bell, I think, and, and it's,
22:00
you know, very weird kind of way.
22:02
But I think that's what it is.
22:03
It's just like, here's the story that's happening.
22:06
It's a, it's a heist, and then this is the, the world that they live in.
22:10
So you kind of discover what a fu, like a near future world of
22:13
climate change is gonna look like.
22:15
Yeah.
22:15
And I, I was really intentional about, so it's, it's an ensemble heist, right?
22:20
There's a whole cast of characters.
22:22
Gotcha.
22:22
And each one of those characters has had a very different experience in the
22:26
world of how climate change is affecting them and how they're adapting to it.
22:32
So even as you just get to meet the characters, you're learning about other
22:37
parts of the world, other challenges they're facing, how are they solving it?
22:41
Uh, you know?
22:44
Yeah.
22:44
Well in heist.
22:45
I love it.
22:45
I love it.
22:46
Now, you know, obviously this is in the future.
22:49
We're not, we're not psychic.
22:51
Uh, where did you come up with some of the, the sort of the environments
22:55
that you're gonna, that the reader's going to encounter in this book?
22:58
How did you come up with it?
23:00
Uh, did you try and look as, as what it would consider to
23:03
be as accurate as possible?
23:06
So that was one of my goals.
23:08
Uh, my, my tagline for this book is basically The Martian meets Ocean 11
23:13
in a world adapting to climate change.
23:15
Okay.
23:15
So it has to be a fun heist.
23:16
Yeah.
23:17
And, you know, very accurate, very scientifically backed.
23:20
Right.
23:20
Uh, and so yeah, I consulted with a lot of people.
23:25
Uh, um, just anytime that I wanted to pull something in, I would
23:29
make sure to talk to an expert.
23:30
Like how, like how would this happen?
23:33
How would you adapt?
23:34
Right.
23:35
So when you, when you do a, when you write, like is this your first novel?
23:39
Um, well I did write one in, in high school, but this is going
23:42
to be my first published novel.
23:44
Okay.
23:44
Well, no, but that's important though 'cause it's not your first
23:47
time going through the process.
23:48
Maybe with an actual publisher it's probably different, I assume.
23:52
Mm-hmm.
23:53
When you set out to write this book, like why did you decide this book?
23:57
Like obviously you had some experience, a little bit of experience in high
24:00
school, what made you do a book and not like a podcast or you know, like a
24:05
YouTube channel or something like that?
24:06
Like what made you decide I'm gonna write this book?
24:12
Well, when I started, uh, I wasn't sure if I was going to publish it or not.
24:16
Okay.
24:17
I felt the creative need to write a book and, you know, that's what
24:21
felt accessible to me at the time.
24:23
Um, you know, uh, it seems a bit more straightforward to put words
24:27
on a page than to figure out mm-hmm.
24:29
All the video editing, um, or even sound editing, you know, ma made do those
24:34
to you on, on figuring all that out.
24:36
Um, and so I just, you know, I started writing it for fun and then
24:40
I hit like 50, 60, 70,000 words and was like, oh, I made something.
24:46
Like, I kind of care about it and I think it has a good message.
24:49
Maybe I should like, you know, take it seriously and like hire an
24:52
editor and like figure this out.
24:54
I love it.
24:55
I love it Now, uh, to go through this process the first
24:59
time, it's gotta be a little.
25:00
A little challenging to figure out what you need.
25:02
Obviously going, you know, writing 50 to 70,000 words, you make it sound easy.
25:07
My friend, like, Todd, this is not an easy thing to do, but you, you
25:10
love, I assume you love writing.
25:12
So that, that's, that's not hard for you to, for you to do.
25:15
But the whole process, like to start off, where did you go?
25:18
Like where, like finding a publisher, all that kind of stuff.
25:21
Yeah, and I will say it, it was hard in the sense of like,
25:25
you run into writer's walk.
25:27
Yeah.
25:27
And you just have to keep writing.
25:29
And so, yeah.
25:30
Um, I ended up applying skills that I've used elsewhere in life to form successful
25:36
habits of like, if there's a thing you wanna do, make it as easy as possible
25:41
and make it like a daily repeating thing so you don't have to think about it.
25:45
So I was like, like home screen in my laptop.
25:49
Anytime I open it, first thing is the book.
25:51
Yeah.
25:51
And then, uh.
25:54
Setting like a day, like I'm going to write for 15 minutes a day.
25:57
You know, if it's more than that, that's great, but like by
25:59
setting that bar at 15 minutes.
26:02
It felt more approachable, I'd be like, okay, like I don't even know
26:05
what I'm gonna write about, but I'll try writing for 15 minutes.
26:07
And 90% of the time it would turn into like a two hour marathon.
26:11
Yeah.
26:12
Well, 'cause I think I like that.
26:13
You, you, you kind of do it in a short spurt.
26:15
It's like, look, I can do this.
26:17
This is doable every day.
26:18
Whatever's going on in your life, whatever you have to do.
26:20
Obviously you're working during this time, like I assume you're, you're
26:23
full still have a full-time job.
26:25
Yeah.
26:25
So, you know, doing it in little chunks in 15 minutes, that's great.
26:27
And then all of a sudden you're probably like, after 15 minutes,
26:30
you're like, no, no, no.
26:31
I'm on roll here.
26:32
I'm just gonna keep going.
26:33
I'm just gonna keep rolling with this story idea or
26:35
this, this line in the story.
26:37
I'm gonna keep going.
26:38
Boom.
26:38
All of a sudden you're like, two hours later I've got 20,000 words.
26:41
Okay, cool.
26:42
Like, I dunno if that's possible, but not 20,000 words in two hours, but yeah,
26:45
no, no, but like, you know what I mean?
26:46
Like you've, I've, I've just written for two hours, got
26:49
some ideas out of your head.
26:50
You probably feel like after like one or two hours, you probably feel a little,
26:54
a little tired mentally, you know, just from, from a little drained on, on that.
26:58
After doing that right.
27:00
Yeah.
27:01
It, it was actually really interesting to see how the creative energy, uh, it,
27:07
it almost ended up being like physical energy, you know, like you work out right?
27:10
And then you're like tired.
27:12
Yeah.
27:12
Like to put forth that creativity, like the creative part of your brain is
27:15
like, I need to take a nap, you know?
27:19
Yeah.
27:20
I get it.
27:20
I, I also, sorry, go ahead.
27:21
It's kinda like a muscle in that sense of like, yeah.
27:23
Then you can build a creative energy.
27:25
You can build your endurance.
27:26
You can write for like two and a half hours, three hours.
27:29
So I think that was like a, a helpful framework.
27:32
So how many hours do you think it took you to finish off this book?
27:36
Like to write this whole book?
27:38
If you, if you, oh, if I had to, if I had to calculate that
27:40
number, it would make me sad.
27:41
But if I had to, yes.
27:45
I think by the time we publish it, I will probably have spent
27:48
about a thousand hours on it.
27:50
Yeah.
27:51
Crazy.
27:52
A thousand hours, like roughly two hours a day for, yeah.
27:57
Two, you know, two or three years, so Yeah.
28:01
Geez.
28:01
And, and working at the same time.
28:04
Like, this is your hobby at, at the, like at this point it's your hobby, right?
28:07
Like it, I mean obviously you're getting it published and stuff,
28:09
but you're doing this as an extracurricular activity essentially.
28:13
Yeah.
28:14
And in a way I think it works well.
28:19
Yeah.
28:19
Because, you know, I think of like what I write in the book and so
28:24
much of it is informed by real life.
28:26
Where it would be very hard to just do this in a vacuum chamber.
28:29
Gotcha.
28:30
But yeah, for sure.
28:31
Uh, you know, I'm constantly stealing things that I see in real life, and I
28:35
think that makes the book Yeah, a lot more interesting and a lot more realistic.
28:40
What barriers did you encounter while writing this book?
28:53
Uh, I, I would say rejection is a big one.
28:56
Uh, okay.
28:57
And, and like, yeah, so last year when I started trying to send this out to
29:04
publishers where I kind of finished the first draft, I'd like run it past
29:08
the first draft editor and I was like, okay, I think I have something here.
29:12
40 emails out.
29:14
39 nos and then one, yes.
29:18
Okay.
29:18
And I could have stopped at 38 and been like, yeah, this is ridiculous.
29:21
Like 38 people said no.
29:23
Uh, yeah, but I'm stubborn.
29:25
So.
29:25
Well, I mean it that, well, I mean, it worked, right?
29:28
The stubbornness worked.
29:28
Yeah.
29:29
'cause you, you finally found that, that one, this is not, uh, abnormal,
29:33
I assume from the publishing industry.
29:35
It's just a lot of, they probably get pitched all the time.
29:37
It's difficult.
29:38
And you, you need to find that, I assume you need to find that one
29:40
publisher that believes in the book, but as it's written Yeah.
29:43
And then saying, okay, we, if we, I'm sure they're gonna come with some suggestions
29:47
and, and tweaks and stuff, then, then you, it's, they feel it's workable.
29:51
Right.
29:52
Yeah, it actually really helped me to understand other people's
29:56
creative journeys and see that this is pretty common.
29:58
Um, you know, I looked up stories from other authors and like very
30:03
frequently I was like, yeah, you know, 95% rejection rate.
30:06
Uh, but actually the one that really stuck in my mind is Lord
30:10
of the Rings and Peter Jackson.
30:13
Uh, I was a huge, huge Lord of the Rings fan growing up, and I watched
30:15
like all of the behind the scenes.
30:17
Yeah.
30:17
And in one of the behind, behind the scenes, he talks about how he had to
30:20
take it to dozens of, of, uh, movie houses before a single person bit.
30:27
And like, you know, I, I have no, I claim that my book is anywhere near as good as
30:31
the Peter Jackson loved during movies.
30:32
You never know.
30:33
It's like, yes.
30:33
If you believe it, you just have to keep pushing.
30:36
Yeah.
30:37
Yeah.
30:37
I mean, that's, that's really what it comes down to.
30:39
But like, and, and in that journey.
30:43
I, I assume, like, did you have a lot of self-doubt after each je like, you
30:46
know, getting more and more rejections?
30:48
Did you have that self-doubt?
30:50
Yeah.
30:51
Uh, for sure.
30:52
And then, you know, not even just with the publishers, but like, after
30:55
I got my publisher and then I started getting editor feedback, right.
30:58
You know, sometimes I get the feedback and you'd be like, this is great
31:02
and you just need to tweak this.
31:03
And I'd be like, cool.
31:04
Done.
31:05
And sometimes it'd be like, wow, this like whole chapter, this whole
31:07
character doesn't, just doesn't work.
31:11
Be like, but they're, it's integral to the plot.
31:13
If I get rid of them, I have have the book.
31:15
Uh,
31:19
and how, so how do you react to that when you get that reaction,
31:23
you know, and you're like, I don't really wanna change that.
31:25
Like, from a creative standpoint, this, like you said, this character's
31:27
integral to the rest of the book.
31:29
How do you re, how do you react to that kind of stuff?
31:31
Do you get, is it like an anger kind of thing or more of like a desperation?
31:34
Like, my book will change if I do this?
31:38
I would say.
31:41
It's
31:45
a little sadness or despair.
31:50
Yeah.
31:51
Yeah.
31:51
Um,
31:56
you know, like you, you invest your heart in a creative project, and so then when
32:00
someone's like, this is garbage, you're like, but does, does that make me garbage?
32:04
Right.
32:04
This is, this is me.
32:05
Yeah.
32:05
Yeah.
32:06
Um, and.
32:09
The intimidation too, of having to make those big changes.
32:14
So eventually I found this sort of process where I would like read the
32:19
feedback in a very detached manner and sit on it and actually start first
32:27
applying this mental question of like, is this feedback I want to apply?
32:32
Right?
32:33
Um, what.
32:36
What I started realizing, isn't it are like once you get past the like basic
32:41
stuff, like, you know, are there typos?
32:43
Like is your grammar good?
32:45
A lot of it really boils down to artistic choice.
32:48
Mm-hmm.
32:49
Gotcha.
32:49
And subjectivity.
32:51
And, you know, I started getting like conflicting feedback of like, I like this
32:54
character, I don't like this character.
32:56
I'm like, well, can't please both of you.
32:58
So like, I have to go back to what, what the story I want to tell is.
33:04
Yeah.
33:04
Uh.
33:06
And that's, that's hard to do.
33:08
'cause you know you want your book to be a success and you think like if someone
33:11
gives you feedback, if you apply the feedback, it'll make it more successful.
33:13
Yeah, but Well, and especially with the genre like you're looking at like solar
33:17
punk, you know, like a heist, right?
33:20
This is very different than what many publishers probably see.
33:24
You're trying to.
33:26
Provided optimistic look to climate change very different than what the, the, the
33:31
normal narrative is, or the traditional narrative is for climate change.
33:36
Was that ever, uh, at risk of being changed through the editing process?
33:45
Um,
33:49
I'd say the high level idea was not, you know, I, right.
33:52
I was.
33:53
Lucky enough to find a publisher and an editor that understood
33:56
what I was trying to achieve.
33:58
Uh, and I guess that makes sense.
34:00
'cause you know, they, they want, they took it on, they, yeah.
34:03
Obvious they have to understand the project and want that, want that project.
34:06
'cause they're getting pitched with so many books.
34:07
If they don't like the exact mission statement for your book, they're probably
34:10
just gonna take on a different book.
34:12
But, uh, I mean, I've gotten to the point around like, I don't know.
34:16
Publisher rejection number 30 where it started being like,
34:18
maybe I should self-publish.
34:20
Yeah.
34:20
So there's a whole section of my Google search history of like, how does
34:23
self-publish a self-publish good idea.
34:27
I mean, it's an idea.
34:28
I think I would go towards that after that many rejection.
34:30
Like, you know what?
34:31
I'm just gonna self, but there's a, yeah.
34:32
So what's the difference between getting a, a publisher
34:36
and then also self publishing?
34:38
Like what, in that process, what's the difference?
34:43
Well, okay, for me.
34:46
I wanted to go the publishing route for two read.
34:49
One is I really wanted to see how it can be done Right.
34:53
And professionally.
34:54
Yeah.
34:54
And then learn from that and maybe do it myself the next time.
34:57
Right.
34:57
Like I, that's my mental model for learning is like,
35:01
watch a professional, do it.
35:02
Yes.
35:02
And then like copy and paste.
35:04
Uh, the other one is I really hope it gets turned into a movie.
35:09
I, it's like one of my bucket list items is like, write
35:12
something that turns into a movie.
35:14
Might not be the book, but like Yeah.
35:16
Uh, I felt that going, the, the traditional publisher route was like
35:19
a, gave it kind of a better chance of being taken seriously as a movie.
35:22
Gotcha.
35:23
And it makes sense.
35:24
And also like, I, I, I think the feedback is awesome too, right?
35:27
To be able to.
35:29
Share your, your creative work with publishers and, and editors, like
35:33
professionals that do this each and every day who have seen countless books, right.
35:37
Compared to maybe yourself or others.
35:39
Obviously, you're probably well read and, and things like that.
35:41
If you're ready to read a, uh, write a book, but, you know, that's, that's also
35:47
a, a, probably a, a plus, a positive.
35:49
Getting a published book is just like you, you're, you're getting input into the
35:52
story, input into the writing style that might play a role down the down the road.
35:57
If a book does get picked up.
36:00
Yeah, no, and I think feedback is critical to really any creative
36:04
process, including writing.
36:06
And you know, even outside of my publisher, I recruited a
36:10
lot of my own beta readers.
36:12
Uh, yeah.
36:13
Gotcha.
36:13
Mostly friends.
36:14
But yeah, I actually found like a website online called Critique
36:17
Circle, where you post chapters, you read other people's chapters.
36:20
They have a really smart system where.
36:22
You get credits for reviewing other people's chapters.
36:25
Yeah.
36:25
And then you need credits to post your own.
36:27
So it's, it kind of keeps this like healthy economy alive where Yeah.
36:30
You're incentivized to review other people.
36:31
It's kind of like a science journal in a way.
36:34
Like, you know, you write, you write articles and they ask you
36:36
to review articles and that's like part of the service.
36:39
Yeah.
36:40
And you know, thankfully no money is required.
36:42
Yeah.
36:43
I know the science journalism space is running into a lot of the expensive
36:47
paywalls right now, but Yeah.
36:48
Uh, I actually think that that's a super interesting model.
36:52
Of the future.
36:53
Um, because, you know, as part of this whole solar punk idea,
36:58
I think community and people are such a large part of the problem.
37:03
Sorry, part of the solution.
37:05
Solution, yeah.
37:05
Yeah.
37:06
Yes.
37:07
Community and people are such a large part of the solution and one of the
37:11
ways that we do that is we figure out systems that help us align, help us
37:15
work better together rather than worse.
37:18
Uh, so these platforms.
37:21
I mean, Craigslist is like this weirdly old school, but perfect example of like
37:26
if you just, and make a platform where people can buy and sell used items.
37:30
Yeah.
37:31
I mean, who knows how many, like millions of tons of CO2 Craigslist has
37:35
saved from things being landfilled.
37:36
Yeah, it's incredible.
37:38
It's true.
37:38
'cause normally people would just throw stuff out.
37:39
Even for like Facebook marketplaces, people are like, I got this junk,
37:43
but I can sell it for 50 bucks and, and just make something
37:46
off of it and it gets reused.
37:47
So it makes sense to, for reusable stuff, it probably saves a lot, a ton of
37:51
stuff from, from going into the, yeah.
37:53
Yeah.
37:53
Agreed.
37:54
Agreed.
37:55
That's, that's really interesting.
37:55
So, um, with this story, what do you hope readers get out of it?
38:07
I hope that readers of how to surf for hurricane walk away
38:13
believing that there's hope in the future, and feeling excited
38:17
and empowered to take action themselves and with their community.
38:22
Okay.
38:23
Yeah, I like that.
38:25
And so, I mean, that's what you want.
38:28
You want the call to action.
38:28
So part of the book is there like a, will there be like a follow up with you?
38:33
You know, you'll probably do some talks and stuff like that, but
38:35
like, is there, like you want them to feel a call to action?
38:37
So after the book, I'm reading it and I'll be like, oh man, this is awesome.
38:40
I feel inspired to do something else.
38:43
How will you, like, is there a way that they can get directed to something?
38:46
Like, are you going to create something like that or say, here are a bunch
38:50
of of organizations such as like Surf Ride or something like that,
38:52
that are going to help you, guide you to do that kind of call to action?
38:58
Yeah.
38:58
Uh, so obviously going to keep doing podcasts and spreading the word, but also
39:03
for listeners of how to protect the ocean.
39:06
I've prepared a special page on the book's website.
39:09
Nice.
39:09
How to serve for hurricane.com/protect, which will not only give them a
39:13
free sneak preview of the book, but includes some, some actions and some
39:17
ideas on how you can get started yourself helping to protect the ocean.
39:21
I love that.
39:22
What a nice surprise.
39:23
That's amazing.
39:25
Uh, this is a guy who knows how to.
39:26
Sell a book.
39:27
This is, this is fantastic, I think, but I mean that, that's what's important, right?
39:30
When you write a novel like this, you want people to feel inspired.
39:34
You want people to take action.
39:35
Here, you're providing people with a methodology, some ideas, some strategies.
39:41
I think that's, that's fantastic.
39:43
And, and I can't wait.
39:44
Yeah, I can't wait to read the book.
39:45
I can't wait for people to read the book.
39:47
Um, people are, as you're reading this, or as you're listening to
39:50
this, you're watching this, the book, the, the, the pre-orders are
39:54
up and you can grab the pre-orders.
39:55
I can put the link in the show notes.
39:58
Um, Todd, like, as we kind of wrap this up, like what do you want
40:01
people, uh, to feel after this book?
40:03
Like what do you want people to do?
40:06
I want people.
40:08
First and foremost, I want people to spend time in nature.
40:12
Yes, that's pro.
40:14
Like the single most important thing you can do is spend time in nature.
40:18
'cause it's gonna recharge you.
40:19
It's gonna shield you against all the fear and anxiety in the world, and it's gonna
40:24
remind you, this is what I'm fighting for.
40:27
Yeah.
40:27
And then take that energy and act.
40:30
Yeah.
40:31
There's so many ideas online about how you can act, you know,
40:34
find something that makes sense for your life and your lifestyle.
40:37
And build on that action, join some sort of group or community
40:42
near you with similar desires and goals to just keep, keep building
40:47
on that and enabling other people.
40:49
Yeah.
40:50
I love that.
40:51
I think that's, that's, that's a great, great message.
40:54
Uh, you know, Todd, I want to thank you so much for coming on
40:57
the podcast, for writing the book.
40:59
Uh, I can't wait to read it.
41:00
I can't wait for people to read it, and I wanna hear what people say, you know?
41:03
Uh, we'll, we'll tell people how to get ahold of you.
41:05
We'll put your, your links in, in the show notes so that people can give
41:08
you their feedback, their inspiration, how they felt about the book.
41:12
Um, I can't wait for it to come out.
41:13
You must be super excited.
41:15
I am.
41:16
Thank you so much, Andrew.
41:17
It's been, it's a, been a pleasure talking with you and I hope
41:20
you enjoy the book Absolutely.
41:21
Surf for hurricane.com.
41:23
Yes, absolutely.
41:23
Say that again 'cause I kind of interrupted you.
41:25
Say that one more time.
41:26
Uh, how to surf a hurricane.com.
41:29
Perfect.
41:29
We'll put that link in the show notes for you guys to get ahold
41:32
of that, and we'll put in the comments on the YouTube channel.
41:34
Again, Todd, thank you so much for writing the book.
41:36
Thank you so much for coming on and telling us all about it.
41:37
We can't wait to have you back on, uh, and to find out what happened,
41:41
you know, what happened during this, during this journey of yours.
41:45
Um, do you plan, like, I know this, you're still in the first book and
41:48
the, and still in the editing process and like the release process and
41:51
stuff like that, but do you plan on writing another one, like a follow up?
41:56
Don't tell anyone, but I have started working on a sequel.
41:59
What?
41:59
That's awesome.
42:00
Love it.
42:01
Alright.
42:01
This is gonna be good.
42:02
Can't wait to hear more about that.
42:03
Thank you very much Todd for coming on the podcast.
42:05
We really appreciate it.
42:06
Uh, looking forward to having you back on the next time.
42:09
Thanks, Andrew.
42:10
Thank you, Todd, for joining us on today's episode of the How
42:13
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
42:14
What an interview in terms of talking about a book that he
42:17
just wrote, like pretty much his first time with a publisher.
42:20
I don't know how you write a book.
42:21
I've always wanted to write a book, especially with the amount
42:23
of interviews that I've done and the amount of people that I've
42:25
met, amazing people that I've met.
42:26
Maybe one day that'll come.
42:28
But to write a novel and to just write it every day for like two to three years to
42:33
get rejected so many times, to build that resilience in yourself just like Todd did,
42:38
that's inspiration right there, right?
42:40
That's an inspiring journey right there to write a novel, not an easy
42:43
thing to do, and then hopefully one day we might see it on the big screen.
42:47
I think that would be kind of cool to see that, but I think it's important to
42:50
be able to read this book, to be able to think about climate change in the
42:54
future, near future, and how we adapt to it and to see what those results are.
42:58
I can't wait to read this book.
42:59
I know you probably can't wait to read this book, so I'm gonna put the
43:02
pre-order link in the show notes.
43:05
Go get it, buy it.
43:06
Support Todd and his efforts also support in thinking about
43:09
climate change in a different way and support this genre, right?
43:12
The solar punk genre.
43:13
That's kind of a cool thing to do.
43:14
Punk has always been rebellious.
43:16
This thought process is a bit rebellious 'cause it's not normally
43:19
done, and he's challenging you to think in a different way, and I just
43:22
love the fact that he's doing this.
43:23
So thank you again, Todd, and I wanna thank you who's listening to this
43:26
podcast, who's watching this on YouTube.
43:28
I wanna thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the
43:31
How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
43:32
If you want to get ahold of me.
43:33
You can do so by going to Instagram, DMing me at How to Protect the Ocean,
43:37
or you can go on our YouTube channel, subscribe, hit that notification bell so
43:42
you don't miss any of the future episodes.
43:44
I wanna thank you for joining us on today's episode of the How
43:46
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
43:47
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the True Nor Strong and free.
43:50
Have a great day.
43:51
We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.