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The biggest misses of the Scott Harris era · Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast

0:09
Speaker 1: And welcome into another episode of Tiger Territory, part of
0:12
Speaker 1: the Foul Territory Network, a Detroit Tiger's podcast. I'm Karen
0:14
Speaker 1: Steckley with me as always a man who still says DL,
0:17
Speaker 1: but only when things are on the down low. He
0:20
Speaker 1: is Cobay, Stevenagen.
0:21
Speaker 2: How you doing? Hey? You doing right? This pod is
0:23
Speaker 2: not on the DL. It is out there coming at
0:26
Speaker 2: you loud for everyone to hear.
0:29
Speaker 1: Kind of sounds like Twitter. That's the definition of twitter
0:33
Speaker 1: X as it is known now. It's out there loud
0:35
Speaker 1: for everyone to hear. And one of the beauties of
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Speaker 1: it is we get to hear everyone's opinions on everything
0:40
Speaker 1: going on Detroit Tigers, and that includes one Scott Harris,
0:45
Speaker 1: the president of baseball Operations. We're gonna do this. This
0:49
Speaker 1: is gonna be like a two parter. This is part one.
0:51
Speaker 1: We're just gonna kind of like analyze how we got here.
0:55
Speaker 1: We talk about the state of the team, and we
0:57
Speaker 1: talk about you know, kind of individual transits and theories
1:01
Speaker 1: and projections and all this stuff. But like sometimes it's
1:07
Speaker 1: nice to kind of go back and not just back
1:09
Speaker 1: to last season, which is kind of typical offseason stuff,
1:12
Speaker 1: but let's go back and kind of see the things
1:14
Speaker 1: that shaped how the team got here. So we're gonna
1:18
Speaker 1: do some some hits and some misses in the Scott
1:22
Speaker 1: Harris era of Detroit Tigers baseball in this episode and
1:27
Speaker 1: for really no special reason, but this episode will be
1:31
Speaker 1: some of the misses because again, like these are the
1:33
Speaker 1: kind of things like it affects how the team will
1:36
Speaker 1: be operated moving forward. So I hope that makes sense
1:39
Speaker 1: for everybody. We'll have a second episode that talks about,
1:43
Speaker 1: you know, some of the you know, the basis clearing
1:46
Speaker 1: hits that have really put the team in the position
1:48
Speaker 1: of what they are, which is a team that has
1:50
Speaker 1: gone to the ALDS Game five and consecutive seasons. But
1:53
Speaker 1: it's obviously not a team without its efficiencies. And we'll
1:57
Speaker 1: examine how we got there. And I I guess Cody
2:02
Speaker 1: a natural place to start, given what's going on in
2:08
Speaker 1: Tiger Land right now, might be just to introduce the
2:12
Speaker 1: Treek schoolble arbitration piece of this. Now, I have said,
2:17
Speaker 1: and I believe you agree with me on this, it's
2:19
Speaker 1: not that Scott Harris and the Tigers like have flubbed
2:25
Speaker 1: the schoolable arbitration process. We're not talking about extension, trade speculation,
2:30
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, just the arbitration process. It's not a flub.
2:34
Speaker 1: I've said, like, you know, the Tigers, they could have
2:37
Speaker 1: done more. Obviously, no one would disagree with that statement,
2:40
Speaker 1: but it obviously was in line with what is considered
2:44
Speaker 1: like chalk procedural stuff from the organization's perspective. Certainly disagreeable that,
2:51
Speaker 1: but I think that is a fair statement. However, it
2:56
Speaker 1: is kind of a miss reputational, and we're gonna bring
3:00
Speaker 1: up that word a couple times in this episode. Reputationally,
3:04
Speaker 1: it's you have former players calling the you know, the
3:08
Speaker 1: organization cheap or trash or you know it. You know,
3:12
Speaker 1: when you're up against the best pitcher in baseball in
3:15
Speaker 1: the public minds. I you're probably gonna lose that anyway.
3:19
Speaker 1: But it has kind of put Scott Harris in the
3:22
Speaker 1: Tigers in this little box fair or unfair. So I
3:27
Speaker 1: think even though procedurally it was okay, how the Tigers
3:31
Speaker 1: went about it, reputationally and just optics, I do think
3:37
Speaker 1: it is fair to call it a miss. Cody, does
3:40
Speaker 1: that make sense? Is that like a fair assessment of
3:44
Speaker 1: like more of like the landscape viewing the Tigers than
3:47
Speaker 1: necessarily like a Tiger's mistake.
3:51
Speaker 2: I don't think it's good for optics. We're gonna talk
3:53
Speaker 2: about some other decision like the the Eduardo Rodriguez saga
3:56
Speaker 2: a few years ago. Could the Tigers have done more?
3:59
Speaker 2: Was like, yes? Should they have probably traded him? Yes?
4:03
Speaker 2: Was it very complicated? Was it actually Scott Harris's fault?
4:07
Speaker 2: You know, we may never fully know, but it was
4:10
Speaker 2: optically not good for the Tigers, for Scott Harris, and
4:13
Speaker 2: I think right now it's kind of fair to say
4:16
Speaker 2: this somewhat falls under a similar umbrella. It's just a
4:19
Speaker 2: bad look. I'm not gonna call it a miss yet
4:22
Speaker 2: because we don't we don't even know how that this ends.
4:24
Speaker 2: If this goes to a hearing and the Tigers win
4:27
Speaker 2: the arbitration hearing, was that a miss? Like, like, I
4:31
Speaker 2: don't know it. Maybe if it hurts some feelings, it
4:33
Speaker 2: could still be a miss. But there's a lot that
4:37
Speaker 2: could happen between now and then, So I don't think
4:40
Speaker 2: I'm ready to put a verdict on the whole thing,
4:44
Speaker 2: But we do have to obviously acknowledge when at least
4:48
Speaker 2: a portion of the fan base is mad, when it's
4:51
Speaker 2: at least somewhat contentious with a player and a powerful
4:54
Speaker 2: agent like that. May be contentious, wasn't the right word.
4:57
Speaker 2: We haven't heard from Trek's schoogle on this a lot,
5:02
Speaker 2: so anyway, that's how I feel about that. A little
5:06
Speaker 2: too early to draw conclusion, I think, yeah.
5:10
Speaker 1: And by the way, it's very much worth mentioning right
5:15
Speaker 1: now that how the Schoolbol Tigers era proceeds and how
5:22
Speaker 1: long it proceeds will definitely be in the hit or
5:26
Speaker 1: miss category. And we might not know that for many
5:30
Speaker 1: years to come. But as I've as I've said repeatedly
5:33
Speaker 1: through this process, how however you act or don't act
5:37
Speaker 1: in some ways, is gonna be somewhat of a career
5:42
Speaker 1: defining move for Scott Harris or the Scott Harris era,
5:46
Speaker 1: like everything's all good, Schoolble signs an extension or you
5:50
Speaker 1: sign them in the off season whatever, like, all right,
5:53
Speaker 1: that's gonna be. That's gonna be good for him, at
5:55
Speaker 1: least in the short term. And then you know, any
5:58
Speaker 1: trade how those pieces come out, Uh, you know, that's
6:01
Speaker 1: obviously gonna be a piece of it. Or walking for
6:03
Speaker 1: nothing like that, that name is gonna be synonymous Scott
6:06
Speaker 1: Harris and Trek Schoolble. I don't think this is an
6:09
Speaker 1: exaggeration to say Scott Harris and Trek Schouble are gonna
6:13
Speaker 1: be linked like kind of forever in uh in Detroit
6:17
Speaker 1: Tigers fans' minds. Uh So, it's kind of crazy to
6:20
Speaker 1: say that. You don't often get to make that sort
6:23
Speaker 1: of like historical proclamation very often, But I think that's
6:27
Speaker 1: very much what we're what we're witnessing right now. So,
6:30
Speaker 1: like I said, it's a little bit of a reputational
6:34
Speaker 1: like miss, but I don't think from a actual logistical
6:38
Speaker 1: case that we can call him miss. But it is
6:39
Speaker 1: fresh on everybody's mind. One thing, Cody, and we'll get
6:42
Speaker 1: to the era piece of this in a second. One
6:47
Speaker 1: thing that is unequivocally a miss is the Alex Cobb
6:54
Speaker 1: signing less for last season. I think he signed technically
6:58
Speaker 1: in the year twenty two, but for the twenty twenty
7:01
Speaker 1: five season, Alex Cobb one year, fifteen million. I don't know.
7:08
Speaker 1: I don't even know how many times he was even
7:10
Speaker 1: on a mound wearing a Tiger's cap, like just like
7:14
Speaker 1: you know, doing bullpens.
7:15
Speaker 2: There's been on time they kicked people out of the
7:18
Speaker 2: press box. They didn't want anyone to see it. There
7:20
Speaker 2: was that time. That's how bad it.
7:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like in terms of a transaction and from
7:29
Speaker 1: a value standpoint, that never got off the ground.
7:33
Speaker 2: It was.
7:35
Speaker 1: It was a clear miss, like I said, and also
7:37
Speaker 1: like a lesson, And we'll see how how the lesson
7:43
Speaker 1: is applied moving forward. Just in general, for as long
7:45
Speaker 1: as Scott Harris is doing this job, but when you're
7:48
Speaker 1: operating the margins but still kind of doing real money now,
7:52
Speaker 1: like you know, real money fifteen million, not nothing. The
7:57
Speaker 1: kind of player you're getting, this is an increased risk
8:02
Speaker 1: of happening. No one could have predicted it. But the
8:05
Speaker 1: end results, the end result. The guy didn't pitch a
8:07
Speaker 1: single throw a single pitch for you, and a year
8:12
Speaker 1: that you needed starting pitching badly, And we'll get to
8:16
Speaker 1: that part of it too. But in a year you
8:18
Speaker 1: needed starting pitching badly, you got nothing from your second
8:23
Speaker 1: most expensive acquisition.
8:26
Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, the reason we're talking about this, it's kind
8:29
Speaker 2: of the roadmap. How did we get here to this
8:31
Speaker 2: point in the Tigers existence where they are competitive, but
8:35
Speaker 2: where the mood entering spring training is probably a little
8:38
Speaker 2: bit off because they had a really bad finish to
8:40
Speaker 2: the season, and they haven't done a lot this offseason.
8:43
Speaker 2: One reason they had a bad finish to the season,
8:46
Speaker 2: everyone pointed to the trade deadline. We're gonna talk about
8:49
Speaker 2: the trade deadline, but it wasn't just the trade deadline.
8:51
Speaker 2: It was some moves in the off season that were
8:52
Speaker 2: made that didn't pan out, none bigger than Alex Cobb.
8:57
Speaker 2: I've said this on the podcast many a time, but
8:59
Speaker 2: when I was looking at free agents last winter, I
9:03
Speaker 2: think I went to Alex Cobb's Baseball reference page for
9:06
Speaker 2: like two seconds and saw, like, Okay, he's late thirties
9:10
Speaker 2: and he has been hurt a ton. Doesn't really make
9:13
Speaker 2: sense for the Tigers. You can look at his stats
9:16
Speaker 2: we have pulled up here and dude had just been
9:19
Speaker 2: injured on and off throughout his career. He'd only thrown
9:22
Speaker 2: sixteen and a third innings the season prior. I understand
9:27
Speaker 2: why the Tigers thought there could be some upside if
9:30
Speaker 2: Alex Cobb would have stayed healthy, he just might have
9:33
Speaker 2: been okay. But there were a lot of red flags.
9:36
Speaker 2: They took a fifteen million dollar risk despite those red flags,
9:39
Speaker 2: and we now know it was a bad move. It
9:42
Speaker 2: was a miss. To be clear, I don't want any
9:45
Speaker 2: angry texts or phone calls about this because we're gonna
9:47
Speaker 2: do the best moves in a few more days. But
9:51
Speaker 2: the roadmap. Part of the reason we're here was the
9:54
Speaker 2: miss of the Alex Cobb signing. For sure.
9:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, like the whole aspect of like hits
10:02
Speaker 1: and misses is that you like the nature of this job.
10:05
Speaker 1: We can say it like it's it's it's okay to
10:07
Speaker 1: acknowledge this, so like it doesn't come across as being
10:10
Speaker 1: too unfair, Like you're not going to bat a thousand
10:13
Speaker 1: doing this job. Like it's just it's just not gonna happen.
10:15
Speaker 2: They were saying at the time, Oh, Alex had offers
10:19
Speaker 2: from other places for more money, And maybe that was true.
10:23
Speaker 2: You know, maybe the Tigers weren't the only one who
10:26
Speaker 2: were willing to take a gamble. But given this the
10:30
Speaker 2: state they were in, given other Justin Erlander signed like
10:33
Speaker 2: the same deal. You know, they chose Alex Cobb and
10:37
Speaker 2: they chose wrong.
10:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, and another guy just to kind of keep with
10:42
Speaker 1: the aging pictures in free agency motif we got going
10:46
Speaker 1: on right here is before the twenty twenty four season,
10:49
Speaker 1: signing kent to Mayada, who if you just kind of
10:53
Speaker 1: look at the numbers like he, like everyone kind of
10:56
Speaker 1: knew what Kent to Mayada was, and we have it
10:58
Speaker 1: pulled up here on maybe you're watching on YouTube, but
11:03
Speaker 1: like immediately Cody immediately upon being in Detroit, whether it
11:08
Speaker 1: was you know, give her, you know, pick your reason,
11:12
Speaker 1: just an immediately below average, subpar picture that became a
11:17
Speaker 1: hole in you're starting rotation, and then a thorn in
11:21
Speaker 1: the side of of AJ Hinch trying to figure out
11:24
Speaker 1: how am I, Like, I mean, he is somebody that
11:28
Speaker 1: I have on the roster that is healthy, Like I
11:30
Speaker 1: need to use him, but when can I use him?
11:34
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was was a was a popular internal
11:37
Speaker 1: monologue that that AJ had or even just talking with
11:41
Speaker 1: h with Better and the rest of the organizational staff.
11:44
Speaker 1: But the guy was a positive war player his entire career.
11:48
Speaker 1: He comes to Detroit negative one point eight, negative point
11:52
Speaker 1: two in the twenty twenty five season in which you know,
11:56
Speaker 1: they finally got to the point where like, what we
11:58
Speaker 1: just can't just can't do this anymore. It was he
12:02
Speaker 1: became a definition of addition by subtraction, which sucks because
12:08
Speaker 1: again he was for the majority of his career. He
12:10
Speaker 1: was a good picture. But that's a clear miss, especially
12:12
Speaker 1: when you throw in the two two year contract element
12:17
Speaker 1: of it that that Harris offered, which you know not
12:20
Speaker 1: that common. We all know this from him.
12:24
Speaker 2: There's there.
12:25
Speaker 1: It was one thing where Cob maybe it was a
12:28
Speaker 1: little freaky. This was just you just acquired somebody who
12:32
Speaker 1: just was not good, but just not good. It's a
12:34
Speaker 1: clear miss.
12:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting one to revisit because at the
12:38
Speaker 2: time I was totally on board with this signing. Kintamida
12:42
Speaker 2: ten K's per nine the year before they signed him.
12:44
Speaker 2: It was a second year back from Tommy John surgery,
12:47
Speaker 2: so there was reason to believe he might have been,
12:51
Speaker 2: you know, on the upswing a little bit. He had
12:54
Speaker 2: his underlying metrics were a little bit better than his
12:57
Speaker 2: r going back a couple of years. So as you
13:02
Speaker 2: look back at it, you know, what did they miss?
13:05
Speaker 2: What should they have known? Maida had a reputation as
13:09
Speaker 2: being a good guy. Teammates liked him. You know, he
13:12
Speaker 2: was a fly ball pitcher for sure, which at the
13:15
Speaker 2: time Scott here said, hey, this fits our park. It
13:19
Speaker 2: is interesting though they have not brought in many other
13:22
Speaker 2: fly ball pitchers in the Harris era. In fact, one
13:25
Speaker 2: of the others they did also from the Twins, Chris Paddock.
13:28
Speaker 2: He's on this list. We're gonna talk about him later.
13:31
Speaker 2: So I would argue a guy who gives up a
13:33
Speaker 2: lot of balls in the air, it can always just
13:35
Speaker 2: be a little bit dangerous. He just can just kind
13:39
Speaker 2: of fell off a cliff after age thirty five, and
13:41
Speaker 2: it was unfortunate, but it turned into quite an ugly tenure.
13:46
Speaker 2: They tried to make it work, revamp some things. The
13:48
Speaker 2: second year. There was optimism for like two spring training
13:51
Speaker 2: outings and then it just never happened. You could say,
13:57
Speaker 2: bad move to not pull the plug on it sooner.
14:00
Speaker 2: You can also say maybe a good move to pull
14:02
Speaker 2: the plug on it when they did, because they could
14:04
Speaker 2: have tried to write it out a little longer and
14:06
Speaker 2: that that could have cost them one game, which could
14:09
Speaker 2: have cost them making the playoffs entirely. Yeah, that's.
14:16
Speaker 1: At the time you thought your margin for air was
14:18
Speaker 1: a lot larger. So it's like, all right, maybe we
14:20
Speaker 1: can you know, maybe we can do this, and then
14:23
Speaker 1: you know might have been you know, a move like that,
14:26
Speaker 1: one of several obviously, when the margin is so thin
14:28
Speaker 1: as it turned out that you know, might have ended
14:30
Speaker 1: up like saving the season.
14:33
Speaker 2: Cutting saved the season. How's that for some spin? I'll
14:39
Speaker 2: tell you.
14:40
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. Maybe there's like there's a couple
14:42
Speaker 1: of things that we're not going to have access to
14:45
Speaker 1: this information. But you know, I think a lot about
14:48
Speaker 1: the quote from Scott Harris after at his end of
14:53
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five season presser, and you know, talking about
14:57
Speaker 1: how they have to go back and kind of figure
14:59
Speaker 1: out why you know, the Bats failed as they did
15:02
Speaker 1: down the stretch and kind of relook at their models
15:04
Speaker 1: and I'm paraphrasing obviously, but relook at their process and
15:07
Speaker 1: self evaluate and all that stuff. I hope that factors
15:12
Speaker 1: like age of pictures is reevaluated internally as well, because
15:18
Speaker 1: again that's a little bit of a theme that we've seen,
15:21
Speaker 1: and I would wager that, like part of schooble Any has,
15:26
Speaker 1: if you have hesitation about giving school a contract, you're
15:29
Speaker 1: thinking about what it's going to look like at the end,
15:31
Speaker 1: obviously when he's a little bit older, so uh so,
15:34
Speaker 1: like age, it definitely plays a factor here. And maybe
15:38
Speaker 1: also not acquiring pictures from divisional foes because because uh
15:46
Speaker 1: Cobb was with Cleveland. Uh, my Ato was in Minnesota
15:50
Speaker 1: and uh and Paddock Paddick came from Minnesota as well.
15:55
Speaker 1: And the thing about it again, the fact that you
15:59
Speaker 1: miss is why we was talking about it this way.
16:02
Speaker 1: The fact that you miss on cop and you miss
16:05
Speaker 1: on my Ata is why you get in a position
16:08
Speaker 1: where you have to acquire and in addition to other
16:10
Speaker 1: stuff that you can't control, like injuries and such, is
16:12
Speaker 1: where you have to acquire someone like Chris Paddock and
16:15
Speaker 1: give up a top twelve prospect in Erique Jimenez catching
16:19
Speaker 1: prospect and you know who knows that could that's something
16:23
Speaker 1: that could come back to haunt you in a couple
16:24
Speaker 1: of years. We don't know, but we do know that
16:28
Speaker 1: Paddock Morton like the twenty twenty five deadline itself, Cody
16:32
Speaker 1: like that was the definition of throwing stuff at the
16:37
Speaker 1: wall and seeing what sticks. And really, I don't want
16:41
Speaker 1: to say nothing stuck, but it kind of felt like
16:43
Speaker 1: nothing stuck. Kind of felt like nothing stuck, you know,
16:46
Speaker 1: like Monday morning quarterbacking. But that whole deadline when you're
16:53
Speaker 1: trying to win a division, win a World Series, win
16:56
Speaker 1: a pennant, whatever, it was not an ad to your efforts.
17:01
Speaker 1: I think is fair set.
17:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I'm evaluating this, I have to look at
17:06
Speaker 2: the whole thing, the whole twenty twenty five trade deadline.
17:08
Speaker 2: We know what happened with Chris Paddock, and we know
17:11
Speaker 2: what happened with Charlie Morton, and it will also be
17:14
Speaker 2: remembered for the moves that weren't made, particularly on the
17:18
Speaker 2: pitching front. It is funny ever one wanted Euhaneo Suarez
17:21
Speaker 2: so badly and he's a free agent right now. No
17:23
Speaker 2: one's really talking about him to the Tigers, and I
17:26
Speaker 2: think they were right to to not try to get Suarez,
17:30
Speaker 2: but they probably could have done more in the bullpen.
17:32
Speaker 2: They did get Kyle Finnigan, and I think he stuck
17:34
Speaker 2: a little bit literally because he's back. And Kyle Finnigan
17:37
Speaker 2: was very productive for the Tigers. They helped him get
17:41
Speaker 2: a little better. They got some very good then he
17:45
Speaker 2: got hurt and then he wasn't actually good in the playoffs.
17:47
Speaker 2: Let's remember that. But I think part of that story
17:50
Speaker 2: even is I still think one more bullpen arm could
17:54
Speaker 2: made a difference. Rafael Montero, he was all right for
17:59
Speaker 2: the Tigers, but he wasn't used a ton. Aj Hinch
18:02
Speaker 2: clearly didn't actually have confidence in Rafael Montero, and you
18:09
Speaker 2: know they acquired some other arms. Cody Hoyer, remember him,
18:12
Speaker 2: We saw him from one or two outings didn't work out.
18:16
Speaker 2: Paul Seawaald did not work out, and the Tigers were
18:19
Speaker 2: big on Seawall that thinking if we get him healthy,
18:21
Speaker 2: he could be a difference maker. Well, he was healthy
18:24
Speaker 2: and then he came out throwing what eighty nine to
18:26
Speaker 2: ninety and was not good and was not on their
18:28
Speaker 2: playoff roster. Yeah, I think there were some clear miscalculations. Now, again,
18:34
Speaker 2: maybe they would have given up a prospect haul and
18:37
Speaker 2: got Ryan Helsley who had like a seven era or whatever,
18:40
Speaker 2: and we would be criticizing that. But there are also
18:43
Speaker 2: moves David Bednar being a big one that could have
18:47
Speaker 2: made since and probably could have made a difference anyway
18:50
Speaker 2: you want to slice it up. The twenty twenty five
18:52
Speaker 2: trade deadline was not a win for Scott Harris and
18:55
Speaker 2: the Tigers. That contributed to the demise of their season,
18:59
Speaker 2: and there were some moves that simply did not work out.
19:03
Speaker 2: It's something that's still going to be hard for Scott
19:05
Speaker 2: to live down. I think until he makes a couple
19:08
Speaker 2: more successful trades, if the Tigers are in contention, maybe
19:11
Speaker 2: he'll have a chance to write that ship this year.
19:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, like part of how we're looking at
19:19
Speaker 1: this is that like a miss is a miss, and
19:23
Speaker 1: it's not And some of these are an indictment and
19:26
Speaker 1: some of these are just like hey, you you you
19:28
Speaker 1: know the lottery ticket didn't didn't win this time, you know,
19:30
Speaker 1: the the blackjack hand that you you know, took a
19:33
Speaker 1: chance on there, like you know, you end up folding.
19:36
Speaker 1: So like we understand there's a calculated element to this,
19:38
Speaker 1: Like like should we be critical of the jose your
19:43
Speaker 1: Kidi era, No, we shouldn't be critical of it. But
19:47
Speaker 1: it is like you you know, you signed it with
19:49
Speaker 1: the intention of maybe you get something here, and then
19:54
Speaker 1: you have the option that like it could be a
19:56
Speaker 1: great value moving forward and it and nothing and then
20:00
Speaker 1: pan out that way in any regard, you actually declined
20:03
Speaker 1: the option. He's not on in the organization anymore. It's
20:05
Speaker 1: not it's not worth being critical of. But it is
20:09
Speaker 1: like an example of like a miss and like another
20:13
Speaker 1: guy that had it worked out a you know, we talk,
20:17
Speaker 1: he would you know the Ricurdy Orkeetie thing would be
20:19
Speaker 1: on our next episode, but but it would have been
20:22
Speaker 1: also very clutch given how how the team finished last year.
20:26
Speaker 1: We're doing a lot of pitching here.
20:30
Speaker 2: Like I've talked about this before. So many things are
20:35
Speaker 2: right with the Tigers organization, back to back playoff appearances,
20:38
Speaker 2: a highly ranked farm system, like a young core, like
20:42
Speaker 2: a lot of good things. And yet faith in this
20:45
Speaker 2: front office. I don't get the sense is all that
20:48
Speaker 2: high amongst the fan base right now, and it's because
20:51
Speaker 2: of the moves like this. And I talked to it
20:53
Speaker 2: Tiger's official once and they kind of asked, like, how
20:56
Speaker 2: do we get over this? You know, just everyone be
21:00
Speaker 2: so hyper focus on the on the trade deadline and
21:02
Speaker 2: this and that, And I said, well, one thing that
21:05
Speaker 2: will go a long way is to get get a
21:07
Speaker 2: few moves right. You know, you earned some trust. And
21:10
Speaker 2: for a while it felt like the Tigers were on
21:12
Speaker 2: the path to doing that. Look at the twenty twenty
21:14
Speaker 2: four trade deadline with Jack Flaherty, look at the year
21:18
Speaker 2: before that with Michael Lorenzen. Things will dive deeper on
21:22
Speaker 2: next week, But now you're back to this spot where
21:26
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like there's a high degree of confidence
21:29
Speaker 2: and trust because, especially in terms of recency bias, your
21:33
Speaker 2: most recent moves I've either a been non existent which
21:37
Speaker 2: could end up being a good decision itself, or be
21:41
Speaker 2: straight up moves that were missus.
21:44
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, if there's a tough way to
21:50
Speaker 1: kind of go into this job, one of them would
21:54
Speaker 1: be navigating an expensive picture with a player option that
21:59
Speaker 1: you did not sign and did not like concede in
22:02
Speaker 1: negotiations and then try to flip that asset for something
22:09
Speaker 1: at the at said trade deadline. That would be the
22:12
Speaker 1: Eduardo Rodriguez piece of this. And uh, I'm trying to
22:19
Speaker 1: think in my mind, Cody it was it did feel
22:24
Speaker 1: like a million years ago. But is he the last
22:26
Speaker 1: player that didn't want to go play for the Los
22:28
Speaker 1: Angeles Dodgers? Like, has there been one second?
22:30
Speaker 2: It must be must be for real cost yourself a ring?
22:35
Speaker 2: Come on, man?
22:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, So like that, And we don't know exactly what
22:44
Speaker 1: would have been the return obviously, but stands the reason.
22:49
Speaker 2: I don't believe it was going to be anything franchise changing.
22:53
Speaker 1: Sure should it be, nor should it have been given?
22:58
Speaker 1: You know, obviously he was gonna opt out of out
23:00
Speaker 1: of his contract, but like a successful trade with Edward
23:07
Speaker 1: Rodriguez at that time, whether it's with the Dodgers or
23:09
Speaker 1: another team whatever, and you negotiate through the no trade
23:12
Speaker 1: and all that stuff that would have potentially paid dividends
23:17
Speaker 1: depending on the players, like like like now you know
23:20
Speaker 1: what I mean, or even like last year, depending on
23:22
Speaker 1: you know what kind of guys that you got. Like that,
23:24
Speaker 1: These are the kind of things that like decisions made
23:28
Speaker 1: three years ago, That's that's how baseball works. Decision made
23:30
Speaker 1: three years ago, you're either benefiting from or or feeling
23:36
Speaker 1: in a negative sense now. So like that, And that
23:39
Speaker 1: was the first time that we kind of saw Scott
23:43
Speaker 1: Harris in action a little bit. And again not his
23:47
Speaker 1: fault about the no trade, could you say you should
23:50
Speaker 1: negotiate around that a little better? Like sure, okay, but
23:53
Speaker 1: that was like that was our first instance of seeing
23:56
Speaker 1: him in action. And again he at Roter Rugg has
24:00
Speaker 1: walk for nothing, so by definition that is a miss
24:04
Speaker 1: I think that's fair.
24:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he walked for nothing. If you want some spin,
24:08
Speaker 2: good thing. They didn't re sign him like some people
24:10
Speaker 2: wanted because he has been garbage. But yeah, part of
24:15
Speaker 2: me felt a little bad for Scott Harris for all
24:19
Speaker 2: the reasons you laid out. It wasn't his contract, It
24:22
Speaker 2: wasn't He really had very little leverage at the time
24:26
Speaker 2: he was dealing with a player and an agent that
24:29
Speaker 2: it just seems strange. But then I come back to, well,
24:33
Speaker 2: would other executives in the league have allowed it to
24:37
Speaker 2: get to that point? Would that have happened? Could they
24:39
Speaker 2: have created some sort of better market. Would that have
24:43
Speaker 2: happened to Brian Cashman? Would that have happened to Dave Dombrowski?
24:47
Speaker 2: Would that have happened to anyone you want to put
24:49
Speaker 2: in the tier of the league's most respected executives. I
24:53
Speaker 2: tend to think no. That is around the time you
24:55
Speaker 2: started hearing from others in the league how tough the
24:59
Speaker 2: Tigers could be to negotiate with. I think there were
25:01
Speaker 2: some who wondered if this was an experience showing on
25:05
Speaker 2: the part of Scott Harris, And maybe it's applicable now
25:07
Speaker 2: because even though it was weird, even though part of
25:10
Speaker 2: it was probably out of Harris's control, You're in a
25:13
Speaker 2: weird situation with Trek Skouble. You've had some other weird
25:18
Speaker 2: situations Spencer Turnbull, things of that nature where you have
25:22
Speaker 2: to wonder would this have happened? Would it have gone
25:25
Speaker 2: down this way somewhere else? So fair or not? That's
25:31
Speaker 2: what happened, And Edwardo Rodriguez walked for nothing. You cost
25:35
Speaker 2: yourself the chance to add assets to your organization. I guess,
25:39
Speaker 2: flip side, had they had moved him to some other team,
25:42
Speaker 2: like a backup plan like people wanted. Andy got like
25:45
Speaker 2: two minor league hitters who were terrible. Would we feel
25:48
Speaker 2: better about the situation now or would it just go
25:50
Speaker 2: down as well? You got nothing for Eduardo Rodriguez. Maybe
25:53
Speaker 2: it would have been a miss either way.
25:57
Speaker 1: Perhaps And the point now here, Cody where like I
26:03
Speaker 1: think we've had some flat out misses that we've discussed,
26:07
Speaker 1: and now we're gonna kind of I wanna say, split hairs,
26:11
Speaker 1: but like make note of some things that just didn't
26:15
Speaker 1: like play out in as positive a manner as maybe
26:19
Speaker 1: uh it looked like at one point or or many
26:23
Speaker 1: would have hoped. And we're gonna talk about trading Gregory
26:27
Speaker 1: Soto uh in the next episode because obviously Matt vere
26:30
Speaker 1: Lane has been crucial to this franchise. Take it, you know,
26:33
Speaker 1: as sending over the past couple of years, although obviously
26:36
Speaker 1: last year was hurt, but you know, you would have
26:39
Speaker 1: liked to have gotten a little bit more like Nick
26:41
Speaker 1: Mayton was getting real at bad for you. And and
26:44
Speaker 1: this is somebody that you couldnot you just could not
26:47
Speaker 1: figure out a way to use or to h to
26:50
Speaker 1: get him to have to be a more solid contributor
26:55
Speaker 1: to your organization.
26:56
Speaker 2: He's gone these Sands by some hype around Donnie Sands,
27:03
Speaker 2: and he can walk, and he had a good spring
27:05
Speaker 2: training and then he well he didn't have a good
27:09
Speaker 2: spring training. He had he got to spring training and
27:11
Speaker 2: it turned out his swing was pretty ugly, and he's
27:14
Speaker 2: just never had much success.
27:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then this is recent too, like you know,
27:20
Speaker 1: like the Joe Jimenez for Justin Henry malloych deal seems
27:27
Speaker 1: like like at the time like a great move for
27:31
Speaker 1: both teams, and and maybe ultimately that's still what it is.
27:35
Speaker 1: But you have Jay Hannon your organization for a handful
27:39
Speaker 1: of years, and the fact that you designated well technically
27:44
Speaker 1: you know, traded him for cash considerations to the to
27:49
Speaker 1: the rays means that you never really fully got to
27:53
Speaker 1: see that asset played out. So uh, and I and
27:57
Speaker 1: I think where I think everybody is pretty positive about
28:01
Speaker 1: the player that Jay Henk could be, but in your
28:03
Speaker 1: organization it is a myss that I think his skill
28:06
Speaker 1: set's good enough that like you could not get more
28:10
Speaker 1: or find a role for Justin Henry Maloy. So again,
28:16
Speaker 1: you got something out of him. He was a part
28:18
Speaker 1: of two playoff runs, but it does kind of make
28:22
Speaker 1: you feel like you want a little bit more. And
28:24
Speaker 1: Jimenez has been good, so that's a piece of that.
28:28
Speaker 2: There any thoughts on those, well, the easiest way to
28:32
Speaker 2: evaluate trades is just to look at the war. It's
28:35
Speaker 2: not perfect. Maybe he doesn't give the full context, but
28:38
Speaker 2: if you want to know was this there a good
28:40
Speaker 2: or bad trade, that's a pretty good place to start.
28:43
Speaker 2: Justin Henry mLOY liked as he was, finishes Tiger's career
28:49
Speaker 2: worth negative zero point six war according to Baseball Reference.
28:53
Speaker 2: Joe Jimenez in his first season alone with the Braves
28:55
Speaker 2: after the trade was worth a zero point nine war,
28:58
Speaker 2: so that that totals two one and a half war
29:02
Speaker 2: that was gone in the trade. Yeah, Tiger's got another
29:08
Speaker 2: player in that trade too, which we don't even talk about,
29:10
Speaker 2: Chris Englin, who I don't think is even in baseball anymore. Yeah, No,
29:15
Speaker 2: it's un Jake Higginbotham. What which trade was Chris Englin in?
29:19
Speaker 2: Was that like Robbie Grossman. You gotta love random baseball trades, right, Oh,
29:27
Speaker 2: I have to find this out, all right. I don't
29:30
Speaker 2: know if I can pull that up on the fly.
29:31
Speaker 2: I think it's Robbie Grossman. Jake higgin Botham was the other.
29:35
Speaker 2: The other player the Tiger's got in that deal? How
29:38
Speaker 2: about that?
29:39
Speaker 1: And then like generally speaking, we'll see how it plays
29:43
Speaker 1: out this year Cody, but not ever really establishing the
29:50
Speaker 1: third baseman is kind of low key part of the
29:53
Speaker 1: Scott Harris era because we talked about, you know, we'll
29:58
Speaker 1: talk about the Colt Keith contract in the next Uh,
30:01
Speaker 1: in the next episode, he's gonna get some pieces there.
30:03
Speaker 1: We talked just mentioned Matt verlying. That will be in
30:05
Speaker 1: the next episode as well. Uh, Mayton. I think they
30:09
Speaker 1: threw him out there, you know.
30:10
Speaker 2: And that was the thought. He was going to be
30:12
Speaker 2: the guy.
30:14
Speaker 1: And you move off Chamber in the next year, he
30:17
Speaker 1: has a three war season. Now since then he's declined,
30:20
Speaker 1: but he has a three war season after you.
30:23
Speaker 2: Move on from Jamber and.
30:28
Speaker 1: I don't know, like Zach kitstry like it, Jill or Sheela.
30:32
Speaker 1: We're not gonna sweat Gill or Sella, but you know
30:34
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, it's just like third base. His
30:36
Speaker 1: con has yet to be an established position in the
30:40
Speaker 1: Scott Harris era. Low key looking back guy, and it's like, man,
30:43
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of a lot of people they've
30:45
Speaker 1: thrown over there and nobody has made it their own
30:48
Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons.
30:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, and talking about missus was not doing whatever it
30:53
Speaker 2: took to get Alex pregnant into the finish line a
30:57
Speaker 2: year ago. You know, is that going to go down
30:59
Speaker 2: as a as a tenure defining thing for Scott Harris?
31:02
Speaker 2: It just might. Now we'll also see what Alex Bregman
31:05
Speaker 2: looks like in three or four years, because that was
31:07
Speaker 2: gonna be a six year deal. Maybe they dodged a bullet,
31:10
Speaker 2: or who knows what last year's team would have looked
31:13
Speaker 2: like with Alex Bregman on it. This is why these
31:15
Speaker 2: are hard jobs. This is why I'm kind of painting
31:19
Speaker 2: both sides of all these scenarios because it's not easy. Man.
31:23
Speaker 2: I do not envy the people in these positions, but
31:27
Speaker 2: Ultimately they are paid and paid rather well to get
31:32
Speaker 2: things like that right and right now, I think the
31:35
Speaker 2: failure to lock down a third baseman for three years
31:38
Speaker 2: is not a good look. They may be on the
31:40
Speaker 2: cusp of locking down a third basement, whether that ends
31:42
Speaker 2: up being Colt Keith or whether someone like Kevin McGonagall
31:45
Speaker 2: or Max Anderson ultimately finds a home there. But that's
31:49
Speaker 2: three years without feeling good at that position. It's not
31:53
Speaker 2: what you want. Yeah.
31:55
Speaker 1: And I'll also mention for our longtime listeners a guy
32:00
Speaker 1: that we spent a lot of time talking about, Willie
32:03
Speaker 1: Castro and move on from Willy Castro and he and
32:06
Speaker 1: he makes an All Star team and didn't he win
32:09
Speaker 1: like a utility? Did he win a utility Gold Glove
32:11
Speaker 1: or no? I can't remember. Uh. I feel like he
32:15
Speaker 1: might have, but I'll have to look that up whether
32:17
Speaker 1: he did or not. But something that else is a finalist, Yeah, finalist, Okay, Uh.
32:23
Speaker 1: Something else that's gonna partially define the the Harris era
32:28
Speaker 1: is it's in my backyard here in North Texas. Passing
32:33
Speaker 1: on why at Langford for Max Clark? Uh, Langford's awesome
32:39
Speaker 1: And and I know I've ranted against like some of
32:42
Speaker 1: the hype that he gets, he is clearly awesome. He
32:44
Speaker 1: is clearly like, didn't take a whole lot of scouting
32:47
Speaker 1: acumen in order to figure out this guy was gonna
32:50
Speaker 1: be a pretty dang good player, and and they went
32:53
Speaker 1: with the high upside. Langford will probably play some center
32:56
Speaker 1: field here, but like the high upside potential, threw up
33:00
Speaker 1: the middle athlete, the high school kid, and Max Clark
33:04
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit more athletically profiles a bit better.
33:09
Speaker 1: But man, that's a tough one. That's that's when we
33:13
Speaker 1: knew at the time that we were going to talk
33:15
Speaker 1: about and unlike like the Joe Marcella Meyer thing from
33:20
Speaker 1: the previous regime, where we knew that was going to
33:22
Speaker 1: take some times and we still don't know, but the
33:25
Speaker 1: early returns are clearly in favor of picking taking Langford
33:31
Speaker 1: there instead of Max Clark, even though with respect Max
33:34
Speaker 1: Clark was just named by MLB Pipeline as the top
33:36
Speaker 1: outfield prospects. I'm not saying I'm out on Max Clark,
33:40
Speaker 1: but you know, this is a major league business. White
33:43
Speaker 1: Langford is currently a better Major leaguer than than Max Clark.
33:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, we know the Tigers signed Max Clark
33:50
Speaker 2: to an underslot deal, and part that freedom money is
33:52
Speaker 2: they could sign Kevin McGonagall. So I think the Tigers
33:56
Speaker 2: feel better about that decision than ever based on the
33:59
Speaker 2: prospect McGonagall has become. Now it's fair to wonder, could
34:03
Speaker 2: they have configured that money another way and got Langford
34:07
Speaker 2: and McGonagall. Maybe wouldn't have meant getting as much there
34:11
Speaker 2: in later rounds of that draft, but I do think
34:15
Speaker 2: that is that is fair to question. Maybe this works out, Kiaran,
34:22
Speaker 2: If Clark and McGonagall turned into stars and you kind
34:25
Speaker 2: of got two for the price of one, maybe you're
34:28
Speaker 2: feeling good about things that Max Anderson was in that
34:32
Speaker 2: same draft class, right, there were some things to like.
34:37
Speaker 2: The other way to look at it, if this team
34:40
Speaker 2: right now entering the twenty twenty sixth season had Wyatt
34:43
Speaker 2: Langford and Alex Bregman on it, would you be favorites
34:47
Speaker 2: to win the American League.
34:49
Speaker 1: I think he might be White.
34:52
Speaker 2: Langford worth five point six war per Baseball Reference last season,
34:55
Speaker 2: this second year in the big leagues, So I don't
34:58
Speaker 2: know that's already a high bar for Kevin McGonagall and
35:01
Speaker 2: Max Clerk to clear to prove Maybe this will be proven, right,
35:05
Speaker 2: but we're not gonna know for a while as where
35:08
Speaker 2: you know, right now, the Tigers would be a better
35:11
Speaker 2: team in twenty twenty six had they drafted White Langford.
35:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's no doubt about that. I'll say this,
35:18
Speaker 1: like sometimes I think about this, you know, doing exercise
35:22
Speaker 1: like this, and I don't know how I'm gonna feel
35:24
Speaker 1: at the end, and like having gone through this with you, Cody,
35:28
Speaker 1: like it really does kind of illustrate where the organization,
35:33
Speaker 1: like how the organization has ascended over the past couple
35:37
Speaker 1: of years that we're talking about like, man, you couldn't
35:40
Speaker 1: you know Joe o'shella, you know, like you know you're
35:43
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, the second guy in this closer
35:48
Speaker 1: trade didn't quite work out. And it's like these are
35:51
Speaker 1: small things that people get focused on. And maybe that's
35:53
Speaker 1: my message to you know, next time Tigers for you know,
35:56
Speaker 1: front office personnel, like talk to you. It's like it's
35:59
Speaker 1: also kind of a sign of where you're at that
36:02
Speaker 1: the fan base is so hyper focused on these like
36:05
Speaker 1: little things that don't work out. And obviously there's some
36:07
Speaker 1: big things that didn't work out. We talked about them already,
36:10
Speaker 1: but the majority of this is like, yeah, like it's
36:13
Speaker 1: just a miss like you know, you know, not necessarily
36:16
Speaker 1: like an indictment of of your organization or your process
36:20
Speaker 1: or whoever.
36:21
Speaker 2: The Dodgers have these too. They gave Tan or Scott
36:24
Speaker 2: a ton of money. It was not good for them
36:26
Speaker 2: last year.
36:27
Speaker 1: Yes, so like so I do think that's kind of
36:31
Speaker 1: like it's just another example of like, all right that
36:33
Speaker 1: obviously the health of the organization is better, is significantly
36:37
Speaker 1: better than it was than when Scott Harris took over.
36:41
Speaker 1: And again we'll do a second part of this, of
36:44
Speaker 1: this concept and it will be the list of things
36:47
Speaker 1: that are hits in the Scott Harris era, and there's
36:50
Speaker 1: gonna be plenty of them. So we wanted to kind
36:54
Speaker 1: of do both, and forever reason it felt more natural
36:57
Speaker 1: to do to do this one first. But the hit
37:00
Speaker 1: one's gonna be lengthy as well. Cody anything else before
37:03
Speaker 1: we jet out.
37:04
Speaker 2: Here, No, just what I'm thinking of, like alternate scenarios.
37:08
Speaker 2: The Blue Jays signed to Anthony Santander. They made the
37:10
Speaker 2: World series very much in spite of him. It's looking
37:13
Speaker 2: like it's going to age to be a bad, bad contract.
37:15
Speaker 2: There were times people wanted Sans Hondair in Detroit. Imagine
37:20
Speaker 2: if he were dragging down your payroll right now and
37:22
Speaker 2: clogging up a roster spot, that would be very bad.
37:26
Speaker 2: So it could be worse, it could also be better,
37:31
Speaker 2: and it's okay to acknowledge both of those things.
37:35
Speaker 1: I hope one day Scott Harris writes a book about
37:39
Speaker 1: the moves he didn't make, and I just would love
37:41
Speaker 1: to read him and just like see how far they
37:44
Speaker 1: went down the process of some of these guys, or
37:46
Speaker 1: some of these trades, or not far at all, And
37:48
Speaker 1: then I would find that in rantaining read. I think
37:51
Speaker 1: a lot of people would as well. All right, you
37:54
Speaker 1: guys can follow us on XPOLY known as Twitter at
37:56
Speaker 1: Cody staved Haagen act Caro on his sports Decictly pot
37:58
Speaker 1: page at Tiger Territory Underscore. Please subscribe to our YouTube
38:02
Speaker 1: channel if you have not already, and as always, go
38:05
Speaker 1: to Tiger Territoryshop dot com for all your Tiger Territory
38:08
Speaker 1: merch needs. So forth, Cody Stapenhangen, I'm Kieren Steckley. Everybody
38:12
Speaker 1: have great there