Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH S1:E13 - on music

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REALLY JEWISH S1:E13 - on music · REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph

• Oliver Spike Joseph: Okay, welcome, Steve, Levi-Kallin and Josh Breslaw. It's wonderful to have you both. You're both from Oi Va Voi some of the original ⁓ members running a pretty popular group in North London. You ⁓ have got an interesting journey, both in the history of the band ⁓ ⁓ the last two, three years as a band. And I'm just delighted to have you on the show. Welcome. Steve: Thank you for having us. Josh Breslaw: Hi, how you? Oliver Spike Joseph: Thank you so much. Listen, I have to start with have to start with one very short story when Steve walked into my house Steve you were part of our cover for a little bit of time, which is lovely when he walked in my house when we first met you said, Oh, yeah, I'm part of this band Oi Va Voi. And I obviously not this not the smoothest kid on the block. Just didn't really know what to do with that. I used to listen to a band called Oi Va Voi back in the day must be two different bands. Steve: hahahaha Oliver Spike Joseph: Then after you left after you left like a you know an hour later after a lovely cuppa and like scratching my head I'm like I made such a Such a tear myself in front of this guy who's part of a really cool band. I could have just said I love your band but back then I I guess was a little bit starstruck but not not starstruck today. Listen We're delighted to have you on the show. Tell us a little bit both perhaps. We'll start with Steve Steve: Yeah Oliver Spike Joseph: just about how you came to avoid a little bit of your background story. And then I've got some questions to ask about where you sit as a band today and some of the work that you've been doing. Steve: So the band's been going a long time, ⁓ in fact over 20 years. And I met a few of my students, when I was a student I met some musicians and then we kind of took the band from the university band to London, which then kind of formed what we now call Oi Va ⁓ And the band became a kind of more serious prospect, if you know what I mean. kind ⁓ we worked on kind of originally... instrumental ideas, ⁓ melodies from klezmer tunes ⁓ and it was a mainly instrumental band. I'd always been to synagogue a lot when I was a child. ⁓ I came from quite a traditional family. I used to hear all the melodies that were heard in a shul service and kind of, suppose, took a lot of those melodies. you know, into my kind of musical language, I suppose you could say. And I also played a bit of klezmer on the clarinet. But also, you know, I grew up listening to, like everyone, dance music, indie, pop music, hip hop, all the stuff you're exposed to in Britain, in, you know, British pop music. And I'd always played in bands, you know, so, but then I'd only ever played in a band playing guitar and singing. Josh Breslaw: Okay. you Steve: in pubs and things like that. I'd never played clarinet in a band. I wasn't even sure that was an option. know, because not many bands have clarinets in them. So all of a sudden I found I could play clarinet in a band that wasn't an orchestra. You know, was... And all of a sudden there was a bass guitar and there was drums and there was... You know, it was ⁓ a really exciting way to sort of take part, playing an instrument like a clarinet. So that for me was great. Yeah. Oliver Spike Joseph: So from back in the day of I've loved I loved loved your music even though I didn't manage to connect the dots Well, we met just a couple of years ago We you should also mention that you've given us some of our boost of our first few months of Really Jewish podcasts and you've got our intro and outro music on the podcast from your latest single ⁓ Josh, how did you find your way to Oi Va Voi and tell us a little bit more of your journey? Josh Breslaw: you Oliver Spike Joseph: to this musical height. Josh Breslaw: Yeah Yeah, a strange journey for me. mean, I had a very secular upbringing, so I wasn't involved in much Jewish culture when I was younger. ⁓ And I certainly hadn't come across klezma music, ⁓ not to any extent that I could pinpoint it in any kind of way. And then in my 20s, kind of bumped into I was doing a music, I was at a music college and I bumped into someone who had this band and he recognized my name and said, hey, you must be Jewish, come and play with my band. ⁓ And I packed up my drum kit and went along to this session and these guys were playing Klezmer. And it was just kind of something hit me in that moment when I heard that music ⁓ and I got the opportunity to play. Because up until that point, I'd been playing rock music, hip hop, prog rock, any kind of music you can think of. But I hadn't come across Klezmer. And it was just a moment where I just I suddenly felt connected to this music. And for me, I think Personally, it became my Jewish journey over the last 20 years. ⁓ Discovering this music, but also going to lots of places around the world with that music and being exposed to more more Jewish culture. So it's been a really fascinating journey for Oliver Spike Joseph: So let's get into the some of the journey the last couple years because You're uniquely placed in many ways you've they talk about in these times the the Jewish communities the canary in the coal mine and you're there the canary of the canary in the coal mine in terms of a little bit of what you've experienced in recent times I believe that Really Jewish is not a podcast which attempts to be explicitly political but I think in order to kind of deepen into the story of The day and and and some of the journey that you've been on we we need to hear a little bit of that you've been cancelled from a couple of back from a couple of venues in the last couple of years and that's been headlined in reaction to that you've kind of I Guess been brought to the forefront of the Jewish story ⁓ Kind of different outlets telling that story of the experience of or Oi Va ⁓ in relation to those ⁓ and In particular Josh you described in one of our ⁓ newspapers Community the dress community being unheard at this time. So that that that feels painful From from an outsider looking in tell us a little bit about that journey Josh and how the bands responded and and the response you've got from the rest of the community Josh Breslaw: Mm-hmm. ⁓ so I would pinpoint the journey back to, ⁓ a date that everyone obviously recognizes, ⁓ well to just after October 7th for us, we were actually in the studio at the time, ⁓ of October 7th recording our fifth album. And I think Steve would probably agree with me that we did feel something change around that time. There was a kind of chill, in the air. after October 7th, there was this kind of feeling that for us, we'd be making this album for like, at that point, probably about a year or maybe a bit longer. And the world that we were going to release that album into was different from the one that we started recording the album in, if you see what I mean. The parameters had changed, people were kind of saying, you know what, best if Jewish people keep their heads down for now, we don't really need to hear from you at the moment and all that kind of stuff. And there was a real kind of feeling and at first we couldn't really picture it, we couldn't place what that feeling was. What we felt was we were in the studio, we were making our music that was inherently Jewish and had all these kind of elements that were important to us. And at the same time, we saw not only October 7th, but then the fallout from that, was this kind of very, very nasty development of social media. kind of arguments and fights and statements and all this kind of stuff. we, Steve and I talked a lot about that and we kind of felt we kind of wanted to say something, but at the same time, we didn't want to say anything. We felt it was really important. most important thing that we could do was not be pushed around by world events, but, but stay true to our music and keep making the music we want to make and not feel that we have to come out and make ⁓ statements on to do with with anything else going on in the world, because essentially we are, we're British Jews. So we really felt that we had to kind of steady ourselves in that kind of environment. I mean, I'd like to hand over to because that is my perspective on it, but I'd be interested to know if Steve still, we've talked about it in the past, but if that is still relevant for Steve. Steve: Yeah, no, I agree. I agree with that. We, at the time, we thought about, we make a statement? And the trouble is when you make statements, because the environment was changing so quickly, you end up saying a statement, which you have to then clarify the following week and clarify again the week after, because world events keep moving on. And we realised we're not a news outlet, we're a band. So we thought we need to make some music. So we made a song. We wrote a song called Dance Again. after one of the famous phrases used by one of the hostages and recorded that song as part of our new album. And that song is on the new album and we've played it many times live and it says better what we wanted to say than if we'd have made countless statements. Josh Breslaw: But I'd also add that at the same time as sticking to our guns and just kind of being quite tunnel vision with making the music and allowing ourselves to only have creative responses, we were kind of bombarded online with people, you know, sending messages to us on social media demanding that we give an opinion, demanding that we explain ⁓ who's right, who's wrong. ⁓ demanding that we agree with them, that they're right and all that kind of stuff. And so we really felt like there was no, there was nowhere to go in that. There was no nuance. was nowhere to go. There was nowhere. was no ability of anyone to have two, three, four kind of competing thoughts in your mind that you were kind of weren't sure about this, weren't sure about that. It was just like, are you with us or are you against us? And it was very clear to us at least where the music industry was at that time, you know, the way the music industry had made its decision and certain artists had made their decision. so we just really felt that we felt under a lot of pressure, but fundamentally we made a decision that we were going to make our music. Oliver Spike Joseph: Hmm. So this is also the point where really Jewish and over voy a line because I think part of the my Ultimate incentive to the podcast the podcast is something that was ringing in my head for lots of Lots of weeks and lots of months maybe even more than a year and the place that I arrived to with it was just to clearly portray What Judaism is? without being forced to be like overtly political which was also something I felt Many colleagues and people around the Jewish community were being explicitly called to do and I also know here and this is not this episode is not about me This episode is about you That I would say something about like 80 percent of the comments that I get on social media having been on and now quite more Significantly more serious online on social media in the last Now a couple of months running this podcast are all from people who? Want to shout want to shout at me? Steve: No, we're not doing it there. Oliver Spike Joseph: say terrible things about Jewish people, sometimes accuse me of terrible things, not hundreds of messages, but certainly tens of messages. So maybe today this episode is an opportunity for the people in the community who support some of our work and supports kind of the message we're bringing of presenting Jewish culture and Judaism at its core, perhaps an opportunity for people to offer comments which are generous and kind and supportive of the band. Josh Breslaw: Hmph. Oliver Spike Joseph: of Josh and Steve in particular. Guys, let me just back up a second because we'll return to this story. I am sure in terms of what the last couple years have been about what what's Really Jewish about Oi Va Voi and what's Really Jewish about the genre of music that you're presenting, maybe we'll go to Steve first and then to Josh. Steve: So I think in many of our songs, I mean not all of them, but certainly some of our songs, we've used traditional melodies from maybe it's ⁓ influenced by klezmer music or from ⁓ the kind of melodies you might hear in a synagogue service that we've, they've been kind of weaved into our songs. Sometimes we've used Hebrew words. in our songs. For example, on our first album we had a song called Odgy Shoma which is used in a wedding ceremony. So we recorded a song that you might hear at a wedding but we did an audiovoy version. And there are many Od Yeshoma out there but we did ours. I guess what we did, we kind of put... some of this tradition in a kind of modern context, in a modern setting, musically, in the same ways you might kind of develop, I don't know, a modern Jewish way of ⁓ practice in other ways, this was in a musical way. And that's what we've tried to do, is kind of... set the whole thing in a modern day. We haven't tried to, I don't know, recreate something that's long lost, that is, we have to play it in a certain way. We're not purists, we don't ever try to sort of copy, you know, other styles. We've made our own styles in that way. Oliver Spike Joseph: And I love that description from the song, we will dance. Where you, where you describe. I think this about Jewish music in general, that that kind of generational historical deepening that you can get from music that maybe we're not, not very easily or readily taken from words. The fact that when I listen to some of your songs, I hear, you know, exactly. say the notes of the modern, but also the notes of the deeply ancient Jewish tones. That sounds pretty Jewish to me. Come on. Steve: ⁓ one of the Jewishness things about it is that there is that phrase from generation to generation. ⁓ ⁓ carrying a torch ⁓ sound that looks backwards but also looks forwards forwards I'm mixing metaphors here, aren't I? But ⁓ I'm trying to explain that there are roots to this stuff. that we've tried to place in modern setting. Oliver Spike Joseph: Hmm Josh anything to add there? Josh Breslaw: Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that you'll find in our music is when we get it right, it's often mournful and triumphant at the same time. It's got this feeling of kind of... there's a bit of sadness, but there's also kind of hope. And that often comes through the instrumentation that we have with, you know, the mournful violin ⁓ and the kind of excitable clarinet, although the clarinet can be mournful as well. And then the triumphant trumpet as well. So we've got this kind of, we've got this ability within our writing to kind of cover those different emotions, because we can all, you know, as people feel two or three or four different things at the same time. And so that often comes out in our music as well, I think. And that's something that's reflected in the Jewish way, I think. Oliver Spike Joseph: Hmm sounds Really Jewish Okay, so that we can return to both those two parts, I guess the sadness and the hope and my two next questions tell us two words on the experience of being cancelled from the venues what what was that and what did that look like and How did that feel Josh if that's all right? Josh Breslaw: I mean, yeah, it was a big moment in our lives. Basically it was a, it was a devastating moment. mean, let's remember we'd, we'd, we've been on tour promoting our fifth album. ⁓ and we'd just come back from, we'd had sold out shows in Turkey, in Holland, in Hungary, Belgium, and we came back to the UK. and you, you hear about this kind of stuff. But when you actually experience someone questioning your right to play in a UK venue, kind of do a double take and you think, well, that's not going to happen. And then slowly it dawns on you that it's actually happening. You get a call or an email from the venue saying, listen, we've had this complaint about you. And you kind of do a double take and think, what could they be complaining about? And then you see the information and then we had a call with the venue and when we finally had the call with the Bristol venue, we had the understanding that I went into this call with the understanding that we were going to talk about how the show could go ahead without any problems, make sure that all the security was taken care of. And in that call, they said to us, we've decided to cancel the show. And it's kind of really shocking to be treated in that way. We're very proud of what we've achieved as a band, the little bit that we've tried to add to British Jewish culture over the years. The fact that we've been able to take that around the world and do that and represent something and then to be told by someone because of your Jewishness, who you are has been flagged up. We're going to investigate you and we're going to counsel you. And that's something that think Steve and I are kind of still kind of to terms with. It's a terrible thing to go through. So that happened in Bristol and then it happened again in Brighton. So we were counseled in both places. Oliver Spike Joseph: This and that, two places that I have connections with, lived in Brighton for a year. One of my sisters went to university in Bristol. They're also places of rich British culture and musical tradition and Jewish community in many respects, both with strong and historic Jewish communities in both those places. It's chilling to hear. Josh Breslaw: Yeah, for me, for me, for me, what was most painful is because I actually live in Brighton as well. So this the show that was canceled in Brighton was the last date on the tour. So for me, it was like, you know, friends and family are going to come. And it was kind of the end of it was basically the end of two or three years worth of work making the album going on tour marketing the whole thing. And this was going to be the last show in the place where I lived the last show of that that period of work. So, you know, to live in a place where you're actually told, actually you can't take the stage because you're Jewish and you might say something that we don't agree with, was particularly painful. Oliver Spike Joseph: So listen, you're both British born, I believe. You're both British. You both carry strong UK accents. You've already said, identify as British. Deepen that a little bit for me, Steve. What does that feel like when you're closed out of a cultural milieu, like a cultural story that you really feel part of? How does that? Steve: Yep. Yep. Oliver Spike Joseph: How does that hit you and what does that mean like, you know, a few months on a few years on? Steve: I mean, I think I've been fairly lucky in my life that I've not had too many incidents involving antisemitism. I mean, I can name, I can think of two, two before this particular cancellation. So in some ways I'm lucky in that sense. And I often thought racism happened to other people. When I say that, I mean black people, Asian people. To me, anti-Jewish racism or anti-Semitism, fortunately, was something that my grandparents would have grown up with, that I thought had been confined to history. I mean, not completely, but I'm a grandson of a Holocaust survivor. It's very deep in my family, the whole history of the Second World War and everything that went on. ⁓ and when it actually comes to your door, when it involves you, it's quite a shock ⁓ and you're not used to dealing with it. I have to say though, we've had fantastic support from the Jewish community in terms of... Josh Breslaw: ⁓ Steve: messages of support online, people saying that, you know, supportive things to me and to the band. I feel lucky that we've got a sort of the community behind us in that way. I don't know how Josh feels about that, yeah, so it's not something I was used to dealing with. ⁓ And... It's all linked to what's going on in the Middle East. It's unfortunate to say but it's true. Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah. Josh, tell us how it affected you and your life. Josh Breslaw: ⁓ I would say that the way I look at it is that, so I was always told by my dad, who's 96 this year, I was always told, just be careful, antisemitism is just under the surface. A lot of people were told that growing up. I'm sure most Jewish people have been told that. ⁓ maybe I was naive, but you kind of... you perceive that as being watch out for the fascists, watch out for the hard right, they're waiting. And you kind of expect that society is going to keep that kind of under control. And I think what's really disappointing for me throughout all of this, and I you don't want to go into politics too much on this, but I think for me, What's so disappointing at the moment is to see ⁓ how this anti-Jewish racism is manifesting itself on the left of our society. ⁓ And because I'm from the left, so I feel that from our cancellations, I lost two things. I lost firstly, a music community that I don't think supported us. So the community that I've been part of for, you know, over, you know, pushing 30 years, I've been part of that community where I felt ⁓ it was part of my world. Secondly, I felt like my political home was on the left, what we'd probably call the progressive left. I mean, I, you know, I care about the things that the progressive left claims to care about, except that the progressive left today seems to have a blind spot, very serious blind spot. ⁓ And that's what's really different. difficult to see because we, Steve and I work in an environment which is a cultural environment and we kind of assume that the people that look after cultural, the cultural environment in our country today are the people that kind of come from the left and they care about human rights and they care about the moral good and they care about the things that the hard right don't claim to care about. So we don't have this expectation of the hard right caring about human rights, caring about ⁓ racism, caring about inclusivity, those kinds of things. The left claim to care about that stuff, but they're letting the Jewish community down. In my experience, and I don't speak for Jewish people, I speak for myself as someone that's experienced something. So I to be clear about that. I know there are plenty of Jewish people that don't feel that they've been let down by the left. I fundamentally do feel that I've been let down by the music industry, the cultural sector, and the progressive left in our country. So that's what's changed for me. It's a kind of an opening of my eyes in that way. Oliver Spike Joseph: Hmm. Listen, I think there are lots of I've said on this podcast before there are lots of people who I speak to sometimes on a daily basis on a weekly basis, month to month, week to week who feel very let down by their various sectors, whether it's in culture and medicine and the NHS in the therapeutic world, you name it, there are people who feel in some way or another just let down and squeezed out of that kind of place that Jews were very comfortable in. which is to say that we felt at home and I can say that as well. think, know, I can happily say that before October 7th, 2023, they'd never really experienced and symptoms maybe apart from people getting their heads kicked in after school, which was a normal experience of the JFS in Camden town. I hadn't really experienced any as an adult and some of them and after October 7th for the first time. two, three like big moments in my own journey where I experienced very explicit anti-Semitism. Hard to listen to. And the experience of then losing a part of our political home, a political home also which we helped develop alongside music and culture in this country. I think the Jewish community have had a significant impact on, you know, socialist, leftist, whatever is progressive left politics over the generations. And many, many Jewish people in the Jewish community feel that that space is Josh Breslaw: Mm-hmm. Oliver Spike Joseph: is certainly not there's any more. So I appreciate you naming that here. What gives you hope like what are the what are the aspects of hope? What's perhaps a silver lining at this time? Steve, you mentioned beautifully. I think I also called you after I heard you your cancellation. don't know if you maybe it was a text message or a call just to say what's up. I'm pleased that you feel emboldened by the support you felt from the community. Steve: Mm-mm. Oliver Spike Joseph: But Steve, what's given you hope at this time? Steve: ⁓ I mean there's a couple of things. I'm lucky enough to have kids and I see in them like another chance, another generation maybe get things right that we've all got wrong and I kind of hope that they're not weighed down by the kind of you know life's grind that we are and a new start so I think kids, children. You know, I play quite often in assemblies at my kids' local school. ⁓ I do Jewish assemblies for them. I play music. I get them all dancing. I get them all singing. And just seeing that, and this is a non-Jewish school, by the way, kids from all different backgrounds, they're not interested in who does what. They're singing along, they're dancing, they're joining in. They don't care about all this stuff that we all worry about. So when I see all that, that gives me hope. And then the second thing that gives me hope is when I When we do a gig, we're in front of a crowd and we've got all those people out there and they're singing along. We play a lot in Turkey, it's our most popular country. Majority of people in Turkey aren't Jewish. It's a Muslim country. People come along, very positive, very supportive. They don't question, they don't ask anything to do with that. They're singing along, they're enjoying the music. They don't have to be Jewish. So when I see that, I know that music is a bit of a cliché but it's like a universal language. And ⁓ there's not much that speaks to most people like music does. All kinds of people love it. So that gives me hope. Oliver Spike Joseph: music transcends. Josh, the same question to you. What lifts you up at this time? Josh Breslaw: So something very specific. Since October 7th, there's been a phrase and that phrase has been plastered on billboards. It's been on leaflets. It's been films. It's been songs. It's been poems. Four words. We will dance again. The thing that gives me hope about that is that when something so devastating happens, like we're talking a massacre. So when a massacre happens, The danger is that what people call for is vengeance. Like, and I'm talking about the everyday people in their music and in their art and in their, way they speak, they call for vengeance. We will dance again. The phrase is not calling for vengeance is calling for better times. We will have better times. We will dance again. And I think that's, that's something that's so, so important in these times and something that I've learned and and kind of experience in, as I've experienced more Jewish circles since this whole period has started, I've become much more engaged and much more involved. And it makes me think there's a line I'll draw with another song that we, so we wrote a song called Dance Again, which was playing on those words as well, which was a triumphant song, which was a song about looking to the future and a song about hope. And it makes me also think about another song we've written, And we must be one of the very few bands, not the only band out there, who's actually written a song ⁓ twice about a massacre. Because previously, ⁓ on one of our previous albums, we've written a song about a massacre, a song called ⁓ Sprint, which took words ⁓ from a famous poet called Mordechai Goberteg. And he wrote this song, Sprint, and it was about a pogrom that happened. It was a village that was burning. And his song... This song, these words are so mournful, they're so desperate and they're so kind of devoid of hope. And it's an awful, awful song ⁓ that's on our third album. And it's a really mournful song. But I think what's really important is with this song, We Will Dance Again, is just people looking for better days and looking for hope. And that's what gives me hope is that the fact that everyone is looking for that. People aren't. You know, people are talking about finding the light and people are talking about we will dance again. That's what gives me hope that people are thinking in that way. Oliver Spike Joseph: The image that comes across in Strength is from one of the songs we sing, Ba De Ma Yik Sa Ru, that from the tears that we cry, we will kind of harvest again. I guess an agricultural image rather than a musical image. ⁓ something about all those tears that have been shed also kind of nourishing and fertilizing the soil for the next crop, for the next generation, for moments of hope. guys just to finish up Josh are there is there a visual image of Jewish life or a Jewish practice that kind of holds you this time you said that your Judaism is so your collection Jewish community is somehow strengthened in this time are there is there an image or a line from our from our Jewish liturgy which shapes you or strengthens you in these days Josh Breslaw: I mean, I touched on it. I touched on it briefly there. mean, I am still, you know, I'm a secular person, but I think in all the people, I've met so many amazing people over this last period of time and my kind of Jewish world has expanded so much. And the thing that keeps coming back is keeping the light. People talk about light, let the light in, keep the light, different kinds of phrases, different kinds of versions of light. And I think that's so important when there are, you know, I mean, it speaks for itself. It means something that so many people feel that we're in dark times, but they're really, really determined to find the light. That says a lot to me, even as someone who does not know much about the, you know, the actual kind of religious side of Judaism. That speaks to me. Oliver Spike Joseph: Thank you. And Steve, can I ask you the same question? Steve: Hmm, sorry, I am. Let me just ⁓ think. Oliver Spike Joseph: Can take a moment to collect yourself if you want. I'm just thinking we can cut a part of this out. Just I'm thinking of like a line from you're somebody who's involved in Jewish community life, an image of Jewish life, whether it's like Josh the candles or the menorah or anything like that. Or you can pass on the question as well if you want to. Josh Breslaw: All the water's edge Steve. Steve: Yeah, so there's a song we have on our latest album called The Water's Edge. And the song is about... It relates to Rosh Hashanah. When you throw your... Oliver Spike Joseph: Hmm. Steve: things that you'd rather leave behind down the river and you put them behind you and you kind of move on and you know, in hope for a kind of better future. And we've got that song on our album called The Water's Edge. And I think, you know, if we can throw some of these things down the river, ⁓ you know, metaphorically speaking, it's a Jewish thing, isn't it? Not to get caught up. and to be stuck and to kind of find a way through something and look forward. ⁓ The whole Jewish experience is full of tragedy and wonderful moments, but also tragedy ⁓ through so many different, you know, the last how many thousands of years. ⁓ You know, most of our festivals are... are related to that, they? Whether it's Chanukah or Purim or, you know, we're kind of threatened. There's a jeopardy to us, but we find a way through and we manage to carry on and that continuity is what has kept us all going. Josh Breslaw: Hmph. Oliver Spike Joseph: Right and I want to thank you guys. I want to thank you for the continuity I want to thank you for this relationship for coming on our podcast the I hear a lot of strength from your words and I hear a lot of strength from the fact that you Have been strengthened from the Jewish community and you're carrying on any work around playing music Just Josh to finish up just tell us where people can find you and when you're next playing Josh Breslaw: ⁓ we are, they can find us all over the internet. on Spotify, on iTunes, on Instagram. ⁓ We, the next shows are actually in Hungary ⁓ later this year and Turkey and Greece, probably UK later this year or early next year. Oliver Spike Joseph: Great. I look forward to hearing more from you and perhaps welcoming you back to the show. And thank you so much for joining us. Josh Breslaw: Thanks a lot. Steve: Thanks very much. Oliver Spike Joseph: Right, can cut that, we're in one second. Josh Breslaw: Are we off? Are we cut? ⁓ sorry.