Latest / Loud & Lifted / How to Have Hard Conversations at Work: Tactful Truth-Telling with Sarita Maybin

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How to Have Hard Conversations at Work: Tactful Truth-Telling with Sarita Maybin · Loud & Lifted

0:00
Welcome to Loud and Lifted, the women in leadership
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show where we trade fluff for practical tools.
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I'm your host, Betsy Hamm. Today, we're talking
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about saying the hard things nicely. My guest,
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communications expert and bestselling author,
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Sarita Mabin, built a career helping people say
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what you mean, mean what you say, without being
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mean. In this conversation, Sarita breaks down
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her AIR framework, awareness, impact, request,
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shareable phrases that lower defenses, and the
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tiny wording swaps that protect your credibility.
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We'll hit listing under fire, body language triggers,
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yes, the finger wag, and if you've ever thought,
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I don't want to sound harsh, or I'm tired of
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being walked on, then this episode is for you.
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Let's get lifted. Sarita Mabin, welcome to Loud
0:54
and Lifted. Thank you so much for being here.
0:57
This is great. Thank you for having me. Absolutely.
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So I had the pleasure a few weeks ago to hear
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you speak at a conference here in Pennsylvania,
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and you were about maybe three minutes, maybe
1:08
five will go into your presentation. I was like,
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wow. I need to have this woman on loud and lifted.
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You have this great platform where you're talking
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about communication, which is something we always
1:20
need to be intentional about, but you have a
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different take. And you have written two books
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about this, about being nice. So how did you
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even come to this becoming your platform? And
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how did you decide you can still what you need
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to say, but say it in a nice way? Well, you know,
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you probably know from my bio that in my other
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life, I worked in university administration.
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And I worked at four different large state universities
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in that other career. And one of the things I
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noticed is that miscommunication was rampant.
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It just seemed that people weren't addressing
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things or if it was uncomfortable, you know,
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they would just ghost you and nothing would get
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done because they didn't want to have the difficult
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conversation. And so I started realizing that
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sometimes we just have to suck it up and say,
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hey, you know what, let's let's just talk and
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get this straightened out. So It was kind of
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always haunting me during that. And then, so
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when I started as a speaker, I realized it was
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not just in the state university arena. It was
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everywhere, even at home, that we're not saying
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what we need to say. And so my mantra on life
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or my motto, I guess, became say what you mean,
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mean what you say, don't say it mean. I know
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that's not grammatically correct, but that's
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kind of my mantra. We can still say what we need
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to say, but don't have to be ugly about it. Absolutely.
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And you know what? You're right. No matter what
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your role is, no matter what your age is, we
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all deal with this. We all have those tough conversations
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that we don't want to have, or maybe you have
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to be confrontational. And we just sometimes
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struggle with going about that. And I think especially
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as women, sometimes if you don't have the right
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approach, you might be called some certain names.
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So let's talk about that framework with really
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when it comes down to those tough truths with
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tact. How do you approach a conversation? What's
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that go -to structure for a hard conversation
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while you still feel like you're being Well,
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you know, I always say that the number one thing
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is to keep in mind that they may not, the person
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may not know there's an issue. I always say give
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them the benefit of the doubt. And it's interesting
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to me because I remember one time a woman came
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to me in one of my keynotes, after my keynote,
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she says, Sarita, I think my coworker is laying
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awake at night plotting my demise. Those were
3:29
her actual words, which were shocking. And I
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said, no, I suspect you're laying awake at night.
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She's probably sleeping soundly. But after we
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talked a bit, she was like, yeah, I guess the
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woman really doesn't even know there's an issue.
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So. My framework starts with awareness. I have
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an acronym AIR, A -I -R, and the A stands for
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awareness. Are they even aware of the fact that
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there's a problem? And sometimes we have to say,
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hey, I don't know if you realize, but here's
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what I'm seeing. And we might have to start there.
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And then the I is impact. When you do this, here's
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what I'm seeing the result of that is. And then
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the R is, of course, requesting something different.
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We can't always assume that people know what
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to do. We always say, well, surely they must
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know. but no, maybe they don't know. So A for
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awareness, I for impact, and P in our rhythm
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for requests, air. I love that. That's so simple
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and so easy in your survey. I've certainly been
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in that situation where you're feeling really
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bothered by the way someone's talking to you
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or maybe they're not talking to you and they
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might not realize it. It's not always malicious.
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We're all doing a million things and we're, you
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know, having lots of conversations. So I just
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being aware. This is great. And it sounds so
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simple, right? Yeah. Giving people the benefit
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of the doubt, I think is really a good place
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to start, as soon as they don't have negative
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intentions. Sure. So if you do that and you start
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to create this dialogue with somebody, like,
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where do people tend to go wrong? Like, is it
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the tone? Is it the timing? Is it the wording?
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Where do we trip up? Sometimes we trip up by
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immediately blaming the other person. And I feel
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like sometimes that comes out, you know, in our
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language. You know, we say, well, you never.
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And are you always, are you better? And I always
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say that's like the finger wagging conversation
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or the finger wagging approach. And I hate to
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say this, we do that sometimes more at home than
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we do at work. And I remember years ago, someone
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said to me that home is where we go when we're
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tired of being nice. And you try all these perfect
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phrases at work and in our businesses, and then
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we go home, I'm like, you've been jerked. And
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then you go into the ugly, ugly finger wag mode.
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Oh, that's so true. I definitely might be guilty
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of that with my husband and my children. We're
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not going to like admit that to them. So hopefully
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I don't hear this, but that's true. You just
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almost run out of patience by the time you get
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home and you kind of let your guard down and
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don't always have that right tone or approach
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and definitely don't seek to understand that
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that might be an issue. Exactly. I'm telling
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all my own issues. So I think we all have the
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same issues. Right. Absolutely. Is there a time
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in these situations where you decide to address
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it or just let it go? Or do you feel like you
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always address it? I remember someone someone
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told me years ago that the definition of resentment
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is like taking poison and waiting for the other
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person to die. And so so we're basically over
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here going, I can't believe they're doing this.
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You know, we're like dying over here. And really.
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It's almost like I would say the clue is like
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when you have to interact with that person or
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run across that person and you feel yourself
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tensing up and just bracing yourself like, oh,
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goodness, I have to talk to them. So in other
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words, you're taking that poison, the proverbial
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poison, and it's starting to affect your attitude.
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You're starting to feel some angst, feel some
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kind of way about that person. For me, that's
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always a clue that maybe I need to just have
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a conversation because every time I see them,
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I'm just like. Sure. And if you, I guess that's
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a great point, because if you literally can't
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let it go, right, we have those times where we're
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really stewing on something we can't move on.
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Well, that definitely needs to be addressed.
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You can't let that continue to poison you. I
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love that. Yes, yes, exactly. So I love the air.
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That was a great concept. So when you're starting
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those conversations, is there any like good conversation
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starters as a way to address that, that you feel
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like you're not attacking somebody? You know,
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I think again, it comes down to the wording.
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I always feel like the we wording, you know,
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and set the we together wording as opposed to
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the you again, finger wagging wording. And so
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sometimes I find myself saying, you know, let's
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talk because I'd like to figure out how we can
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move forward. We seem to be at a stalemate or
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something like that. So I use the let's or my
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favorite one is how can we resolve this? And
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some of these, as you saw in my presentation,
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I do my top 10 positive communication phrases.
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And I love talking about the questions. Would
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you be willing to hear some feedback? That's
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one of my phrases. Or how can we resolve this
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is another phrasing. So sometimes starting out
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with, would you consider some feedback? Or let's
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talk about this. Would you be willing to have
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a conversation? Would you consider some new ideas?
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So I love the phrasing because it keeps us from
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being in that pushing mode. It's more like a.
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Yeah, I love that, that it's collaborative and
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you're not accusing anybody of anything right
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there. So you're trying to like, let's be proactive.
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Let's solve this. Let's, I guess really it's
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just being problem solvers versus just accusing
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someone. What are some of those other ones on
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that list? Problem solvers. Yeah, I think that's
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the key. And sometimes I really think that's
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funny that you should use the term problem solvers
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because I feel like in our heart of hearts, sometimes
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we really just want to be right. Well, we don't
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necessarily want to solve the problem. We just
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want to be right. Right. And I remember someone
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said years ago, you know, you can have a relationship
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or you can be right. And I really, really want
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to be right. So but that sometimes flies in the
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face of having a relationship. And so looking
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at, you know, how can we work together to resolve
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this? Or as you say, problem solving. focus instead
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of, you know, I'm going to show them the error
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of their ways. That they're wrong. Yeah. I mean,
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don't get me wrong. We're sometimes like to prove
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that people are wrong, certain people, but you
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know, that's not going to be problem solving
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or definitely proactive. And it's funny because
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you always hear that line like, choose your battles,
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right? So sometimes, and I think of that personally
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and professionally, there's been times where
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it's like, you know what, this might not be the
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one that I'm going to like fall on the sword
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for, but Let's figure out how to have the conversation
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and be productive about it versus causing like
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some major confrontation. Yeah. And if we fight
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every battle, we would just be exhausted. I mean,
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some battles are not worthy of our energy. Right.
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Exactly. Does anything change in that approach?
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And I'm assuming not, but just want to make sure
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when say this is your boss that you kind of have
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to push back on or, you know, we'll go problem
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solving still. But how does that work when you're
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dealing with a superior? Oh, I love that question.
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It reminds me of a woman who asked me one time,
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Sarita, how do you pull rank when you have no
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rank to pull? And I just thought, boy, that's
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just like the best question ever because so often
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we are trying to address things and we really
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have no rank or any authority. And really sometimes
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that's even with our colleagues. And then, of
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course, as you say, more so when we go up the
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chain to a supervisor. And I think, again, the
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question format, if we're saying to the boss,
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we might have some issues about some things happening
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in the department. We would never go to them
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and say, you know, I need to talk to you about
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some things that need to be fixed. That's not
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going to get a good response, but we might instead
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say. Would you be open to hearing some ideas
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I have about some things in the department that
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we can change? So again, would you be open to,
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would you consider, what do you think about?
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So it's the question format that allows us to
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soften it and then of course go up the chain.
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Yeah, I think that's my go -to strategy probably
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for a lot of things. What do you think about,
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would it be possible to, would you consider?
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Those are great. And it's funny because, you
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know, we talk about like seeking to understand,
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which sometimes I think can come across a little
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snarky depending on how you approach that. But
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those are again, they're collaborative, they're
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problem solving, and they seem like you're being
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positive versus sometimes I think seeking to
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understand can be a little. snarky, or maybe
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it's just the way I say it. I don't know. Well,
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you know, it's funny that you, I love that. I
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love the fact that you address the fact that
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it's how we say it. And sometimes when I share
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my phrases, my favorite top 10 phrases, people
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will push back against some of the phrases. And
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one that gets a lot of pushback is a favorite
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phrase of mine, which is I would appreciate,
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you know, I would say to someone, you know, I
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appreciate you giving me a heads up next time.
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Like if somebody's dropped something on you at
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the 11th hour, you know, I appreciate you giving
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me a heads up or maybe a couple of days notice.
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That's to say, I would appreciate is very different
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than, well, I would appreciate. Cause now we've
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got our hand on our hip and we're doing all this
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nonverbal ugliness. So, so it's sometimes that,
11:56
that snarky tone, as you say, or it's even that
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the whole, the body thing, when we get into our
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little attitude, you know, then that, that ruins
12:04
everything. That's a great point. And so you
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bring up the physical piece of this, you know,
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what are some of those things that are going
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to trigger people or what are some of the things
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that we can do to make sure that we're not, you
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know, getting people on the defense. Yeah. And
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you've seen me demonstrate one of them, which
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I was talking about the proverbial finger pointing
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the wagon, the finger like this, but I'm always
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shocked that I see people in conversations actually
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literally. you know, wagging their finger in
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somebody's face. You know, I just thought of
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a story. I don't I don't share this story much.
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But I remember when I worked in the university
12:37
arena, I had a woman who was a colleague. She
12:40
was a department director as I was. But I always
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say she thought she was the boss of me. And so
12:45
she was forever trying to dictate how I should
12:47
run my department. And I remember one day she
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did a little finger waggle. And I said to her,
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you know, I appreciate you not pointing your
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finger. And and she And then the funniest thing
13:02
happened, this is a weirdest thing. The next
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time she talked to me, she goes. It was almost
13:10
like you could see her struggling, like a metamorphosis
13:13
was occurring right before my very eyes as she
13:15
was trying to, because clearly that finger wagging
13:18
had been her MO for many years. And when I called
13:21
her out on it, it's like the next time it was
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like she didn't know what to do with herself.
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But I appreciated the effort. I appreciated the
13:30
fact that she was open to not really putting
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her finger on my face when she talked because
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that's obviously something that will turn people
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off when we do that. And then on the flip side,
13:41
when someone is talking to us and we're doing
13:43
this whole arm, you've heard the closed body
13:45
posture with the arms folded. That's a clear
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signal to people that you're saying, oh, I don't
13:51
want to hear it. So on both sides of the fence,
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I think there's some offenses. uh, that we do
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a non -verbal. Absolutely. And even like that
13:59
sitting back really far in your chair, whether
14:01
you're on a team's meeting or you're in a conference
14:04
room, you know, or turning away from the person.
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I think it's easy to kind of show how you're
14:08
putting up that wall if you don't think the way
14:09
someone is communicating or what they're saying.
14:11
But it's funny that you mentioned the finger
14:13
pointing and I had a boss who did that early
14:15
on in the career and hers wasn't so much in your
14:17
face, but like she'd be in a meeting going like
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this a lot. And to your point, she didn't realize
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what kind of impact that had on her team. So
14:26
somehow, somewhere along the line, somebody was
14:27
like, Kim, you got to stop. Well, she knows so.
14:29
I'll call her out on this. She was my first podcast
14:31
guest. But like, you have to stop doing this.
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And she was like, oh my gosh, I don't mean that.
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So there was a time as, you know, maybe we called
14:39
her out once or twice, but then she would catch
14:41
herself and be like, yeah, exactly. So, you know,
14:44
sometimes it's that awareness of how you're showing
14:46
up. Well, and that's exactly right. In fact,
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going back to the AIR, you know, awareness, impact
14:52
and request, that's a perfect example of the
14:55
A, that the person giving them the benefit of
14:57
the doubt, maybe they didn't realize that. And
14:59
sometimes you have to say, hey, if you realize
15:02
it, when you're in the meeting and you're playing
15:03
like that, sometimes that'll come across as a
15:06
little overbearing. I don't know if you realize
15:08
that coming across that way is probably not your
15:10
intention. But certainly it may be interpreted
15:14
that way. So we're giving them the benefit of
15:16
the doubt that maybe they don't know that this
15:17
little thing or whatever it is. Whatever it is.
15:20
So speaking of intention, I think sometimes,
15:22
and especially women, I'm going to be a little
15:23
stereotypical, try to do things that they think
15:25
are going to sound nicer or soften it. And some
15:29
of them that I think of as like, oh, to be honest
15:31
or no offense, or maybe they'll say something
15:35
and like, oh, I'm just kidding, after they hear
15:37
it come out. What do we do about that, right?
15:39
Like, what if that's one of our little crutches
15:41
that we do to soften things? Is that a good approach?
15:44
And if not, how do we replace that? I love that
15:45
you used the word crutch. It is a crutch because
15:49
we're leaning to that. We're leaning on it as
15:51
a way to maybe make it easier or more comfortable
15:54
for us. Yep. Unfortunately, though, when we qualify,
15:57
those are qualifiers. If we use those qualifiers,
16:00
that tends to rob us of our authority. sometimes
16:05
even makes us come across as more negative. Sure.
16:08
And as women, we do tend to do that. You know,
16:10
well, I don't mean to offend you, but I know
16:13
I'm new here, but I just this may not be important.
16:17
But any time we lead into something with a qualifier,
16:21
it just tends to be, as you say, a crush. But
16:23
then it also is crippling to use that analogy.
16:26
Yeah. In terms of authority. Yeah. And there's
16:30
so much in communication. It's funny. I just
16:32
had this conversation the other day where even
16:34
if we're in a meeting and we think we have a
16:36
good idea, but we put that like, well, I'm not
16:38
sure if this is a good idea or this would be
16:40
dumb. I was thinking, and then you say your idea,
16:43
you just killed your credibility. So there's
16:45
that piece of it too, where we're putting those
16:47
precursors on words when we're going to give
16:49
an idea or when we want to give feedback, it
16:51
just kills the credibility, makes people stop.
16:53
believing in what you're saying. And you know,
16:56
what's interesting too, is the other side of
16:57
that on the end, sometimes we put things on the
17:00
end, like, I think we need to move forward with
17:02
this project, okay? Or I think this will be a
17:05
great idea for our department, you think? And
17:09
so we, again, rob ourselves of our authority
17:14
and kind of push ourselves down as we put those
17:17
on the back end as well, where we're saying,
17:20
well, I'm not really sure. Yeah, that's a great
17:22
point. And I just thinking through my career,
17:24
I just feel like this is something that women
17:25
struggle with so much where it's either it's
17:27
too nice and you're doing the softening or you
17:30
come, you're coming in hot, right? Like all the
17:32
time you're coming in hot and then you get that
17:34
reputation for being the B word or being aggressive
17:36
or whatever it is. And so it's like, how do you,
17:39
how do you balance that? Like, how do you find
17:40
that middle ground where you're being nice? You're
17:43
saying what you mean, but you're saying it in
17:45
a nice way. There's a tiny, tiny adjustment that
17:49
we can make that will change everything. And
17:52
it's the difference between saying, you need
17:54
to be here on time. which comes across as very
17:57
aggressive. And sometimes men get away with that,
18:00
but women definitely not. When you say, you need
18:02
to do this, that's gonna be, like you say, the
18:04
total B word if we come across like that. And
18:06
so flipping that, and I hate to say this, this
18:08
is really like assertiveness 101, but it's like
18:11
flipping that I need you to be here on time versus
18:14
you need to be here on time. I need to be here
18:16
or you always show up late or I need you to not
18:20
be late. So taking the responsibility by saying
18:22
I need or we would prefer that you do this. versus
18:25
you never do this or you always do something
18:28
else. So it's the we and the I wording versus
18:31
the you and again, the blaming finger pointing,
18:33
the proverbial finger pointing wording. I think
18:35
that allows us to say things in a nice way, but
18:38
we're still firm and fair about it. but still
18:44
in a nice way. No, that's such a great point.
18:47
When you use you, it better be like, oh, you're
18:49
awesome or something very positive. You can say
18:53
you're, if you're going to give a compliment,
18:55
you're amazing. You're a great teammate, whatever
18:57
it is, but you say you're and it's not positive.
19:00
It literally just is going to put people back
19:02
like, oh, why is she attacking me? Well, you
19:04
know, it's interesting that you talk about the
19:07
you're awesome. I love that because, yeah, we
19:09
can say that in a positive way. But if we say,
19:12
you know, in a negative way like you're a slacker,
19:14
that's probably not a good thing to say. Yeah.
19:18
Only accuse them of being great. Yes, exactly.
19:22
You know, I have to say, you know, when I talk
19:24
about phrases and I talk about giving people
19:26
the benefit of the doubt and I say, oh, you may
19:29
not be aware or perhaps you didn't realize, you
19:32
know, this is what we need. Sometimes people
19:34
say, well, Serena, I thought you said you can't
19:36
say you. But when it's in a description, perhaps
19:40
you're not aware or maybe you didn't know, that's
19:42
very different than saying you clearly are clueless.
19:45
So it's not a blaming kind of mode. It's just
19:48
a describing a situation. That's a great point.
19:53
That makes total sense. So the word you itself
19:55
is not forbidden. It's just when you use it in
19:58
a blaming mode. Right. And I love the fact that
20:00
you point out that, you know, you're awesome.
20:02
We can see you all day long. Say that all day.
20:06
Okay. So the other half of communication is listening.
20:09
So how do we be better listeners? How do we listen
20:12
to what's said without getting defensive and
20:14
looking for the truth? What are your, what are
20:16
top listening mistakes and what do we do to fix
20:18
them? Yeah. Well, I'm sure that everyone has
20:22
heard the Stephen Covey wisdom about listening
20:26
to understand. And a lot of times we just listen
20:30
to wait to respond. And obviously we don't want
20:33
to do that. But I think the best advice I've
20:36
ever received, one of my first mentors, I was
20:37
a grad student many years ago, and one of my
20:39
first mentors said, you know, Serita, when you
20:42
get some negative things, you know, ask for more.
20:45
And I say that because we can listen all day
20:47
long when it's positive, but the minute someone
20:49
says something we don't want to hear, suddenly
20:51
our listening skills go out the window and we're
20:53
just thinking, how can I defend myself here?
20:56
But she said, you know, when you get some negative
20:58
feedback, ask for more. And I thought that was
21:01
great feedback because sometimes we'll hear something,
21:05
especially if we're in a leadership role and
21:06
we hear something from an employee or staff member
21:09
who, or even a customer who may say, well, I
21:12
don't like this and they're complaining. Our
21:14
first instinct is to explain and defend. And
21:18
instead of doing that, just saying, you know,
21:20
tell me more, or can you elaborate, or can you
21:23
give me some examples? And that's a great way
21:26
to listen even in the face of some negative feedback.
21:29
Because I think that's when listening is hard,
21:32
when someone is sharing something that we don't
21:34
like here. Totally. This is probably something
21:36
that I've had to work on through the years. I'm
21:37
not claiming I'm amazing at it, but it's so easy
21:40
if someone's giving you feedback. maybe you don't
21:42
agree with, or maybe you're not even listening.
21:43
You don't want to be curious. You just want to
21:45
defend, right? So I could think of countless
21:47
times where I went in defense mode and I probably
21:49
escalated it and made it worse because I got
21:51
defensive and then they kind of, nobody's listening,
21:54
everyone's talking and it's just not productive.
21:57
So it's like being curious then kind of opens
21:59
that and gets you further into the conversation.
22:01
Exactly. I love that, being curious. That's a
22:03
great way to put it, being curious. Yeah, because
22:05
it's real easy to get defensive, at least for
22:07
me. So if I'm getting feedback, right, that I
22:11
don't agree with, what are some of those, how
22:13
do I ask questions? How do I be curious without
22:15
also sounding like, cause again, I got a balance
22:17
being snarky. You can tell there's a theme here
22:19
where that can happen. So how do I, how do I
22:23
ask you for further info? Yeah. So my favorite
22:27
phrase, well, my favorite go -to phrase is how
22:29
do you mean, you know, when someone will say
22:32
something. So for example, I love telling the
22:35
story about how I went to a professional development
22:37
seminar when I worked at the university for supervisors.
22:40
And they said, you know, go back and ask your
22:42
employees in your one -on -one meetings for their
22:44
input. I thought, that sounds like a great idea.
22:47
So I go back and in my first one -on -one meeting,
22:49
I said, well, what do you think we can do to
22:50
improve the department? And he said, you can
22:53
be a better supervisor. And I literally was ready
22:56
to defend myself. And instead I said, how do
22:59
you mean? and he gave me some great feedback.
23:02
I do send, tell me more, can you elaborate? Can
23:06
you be more specific? Can you give me some examples?
23:09
But you know what's gonna happen? The tone and
23:12
how we say it in our facial expression is gonna
23:15
be a make or break because we can say, well,
23:18
can you elaborate? We're really challenging them
23:22
and really we don't want it to come off as a
23:24
challenge, but more as you say, a curiosity.
23:27
Right. Yeah. Cause that, give me some examples
23:29
that can come across real hot for sure. Give
23:31
me some examples. When did I suck? Like, give
23:34
me some examples. How do you mean? I like that.
23:37
I have not used that, but I'm going to put that
23:39
on my list. That's a good, I feel like I can
23:40
use that with my teenage daughters too. Right?
23:43
Like they're good with some kind of quick comeback.
23:46
My daughter's grown now, but when she was a teenager,
23:49
her favorite thing was whatever. And I would
23:52
call her out. I would say, um, you know, you
23:55
say whatever. But what does that mean? Or say
23:59
whatever, but I'm not sure what do you mean by
24:00
that? Like in other words, it forced her to have
24:03
to explain in a different way and not just get
24:06
away with saying whatever. And now I could have
24:09
guessed 10 different things I was probably that
24:11
she meant, but to call her out on it forced her
24:14
to say it in a different way rather than. getting
24:17
away with being snarky. Sure. That's a great
24:19
left lesson because that can become a bad habit
24:21
of just shutting down the conversation and moving
24:24
on versus like, okay, let's push them to engage
24:27
and maybe they're, maybe they're right. Like
24:29
maybe they have a good point. So make them communicate
24:32
it and explain it. I love that. That's a good
24:33
challenge. I just get the like eye roll and the,
24:37
you know, turn away. Mm -hmm. You know, I always
24:41
talk about a phrase I affectionately call the
24:43
twins, and it's a two -part phrase. It's, I noticed
24:46
and I'm wondering. And I feel like that's a great
24:49
phrase for calling people out. You know, I noticed
24:51
you rolled your eyes, and I'm wondering what's
24:53
going on. Or I noticed you went, and I'm wondering...
24:57
what that means. And I've used that in meetings
25:00
and someone kind of has a negative response or
25:03
an attitude about something that's been said
25:06
in the meeting. I might say, you know, I noticed
25:08
that you sighed when we mentioned that project.
25:11
I'm wondering what's going on. You're not accusing
25:13
them. So there's no reason to get defensive.
25:15
And maybe they will a little bit if they've totally
25:17
messed something up or forgot to do something,
25:19
but you're just kind of keeping it open and trying
25:21
to understand. Oh, that's so good. Uh, let's
25:23
talk a little bit about the high tech times.
25:26
This was in one of your books. So how do we handle
25:28
communication when it comes to emails or Slack
25:31
or teams and, and what to do, especially emails,
25:34
right? Because that can be very challenging to
25:36
communicate sometimes. So what's your approach
25:38
for that? Okay. You're, you're setting me up
25:40
Betsy for doing a little ditty that I love to
25:43
do, uh, which I think is going to summarize my
25:46
whole two cents worth. on high tech, but here
25:50
we go. L -O -L -T -M -I -O -N -G, I can't understand
25:54
what you're saying to me. The magic word is still
25:56
thank you and please, even if you text or email
26:00
with ease. Bold and all caps are email attitude,
26:05
and texting while we're talking is just rude.
26:07
You can't say something nice, what do you say?
26:10
Whatever it is, don't post it on Facebook today.
26:13
That's my whole two cents worth in 30 seconds.
26:18
I love that. That's so good. Okay. Well, I think
26:21
that answered all the questions. Yeah, I think
26:23
that answers all the questions in the shortest
26:26
possible time. But seriously though, I do laugh
26:29
because I have colleagues who will say, yeah,
26:33
I had a conversation with some people that I
26:36
was going to be meeting with, or some people
26:37
I was going to be speaking to. And then I get
26:39
there on site and they go, oh, you're very warm
26:42
and friendly, but you're very nice, or you're
26:44
actually pleasant. What in the world were they
26:47
thinking about me when we were emailing? Because
26:50
the warm and fuzziness gets lost in the emails.
26:53
And so that's where I always say please and thank
26:56
you. Because if you say to someone, hey, please
26:58
let me know if you're going to need anything
26:59
else, or thank you so much for your time, I always
27:02
say we should do a kindness check. in our emails
27:06
and a kindness check is looking to see is there
27:08
a please or a thank you somewhere in the email
27:11
because it's a great way to soften it and make
27:14
it more approachable. So not so cold and sterile.
27:18
Do you ever think it's appropriate to have a
27:20
tough conversation via email? I personally don't
27:24
prefer that. And of course, now we're all working
27:26
remotely and people are not always in the same
27:29
office. But I always feel like at least a phone
27:32
conversation and maybe using the email to set
27:36
it up and say, hey, I have some things I'd love
27:38
to chat with you about and let's schedule a time.
27:41
This kind of format via Zoom, now we have this
27:44
option. In earlier years, a phone call was always
27:47
my recommendation, but now we can even do this.
27:51
But I think it's good to see the nuances. And
27:54
in a regular email, that's totally missed. Even
27:57
the please and thank you will not save you as
27:59
far as a different conversation. Agreed. And
28:02
it's funny, too, because you're right, you compare
28:04
email to the phone. And yeah, if it's anything
28:06
other than informational or something that's
28:09
friendly, then probably shouldn't be email. But
28:11
then I even think about when I've had a difficult
28:12
conversation, phone versus. teams or something
28:16
with video, it's real easy to hide behind a phone.
28:19
I mean, it's not easy, it's easier. But then
28:21
when you have to see someone, I think there's
28:23
a lot of benefit to that because then they can
28:25
see your impressions, they can see your face,
28:28
you can see theirs, you can see how they're reacting.
28:31
can help. Some people get really uncomfortable
28:34
with that, and I understand that. But I think
28:35
that's kind of that challenge of if it's really
28:37
difficult, then you probably should be looking
28:39
them in the eye as much as you can. Exactly.
28:42
And you know, some people will argue and say,
28:44
well, you know, I like email because then I can
28:46
document everything. But now I'm going to have
28:49
to hark back to the dark ages before the Internet.
28:52
I mean, I remember sending memos when I was I
28:56
was a dean of students for a short time in my
28:58
other life, one of my many jobs. my final job
29:01
before I left higher ed. And as a dean of students,
29:03
I often had to go to discipline cases, people
29:05
who had done things that were not against the
29:07
rules. And that was one of those things where,
29:11
you know, we'd have the conversation, but I was
29:13
forever sending, following up our memo, following
29:16
up our conversation. And I think email can be
29:19
used that way. You know, we can have a Teams
29:21
meeting or you have something like this where
29:23
you're face to face, but then sending the email
29:26
to say, you know, just to follow up, here's the
29:28
things that we agreed upon and use the email
29:31
as the old school memo just to follow up our
29:34
conversation format. No, I'm a big fan of that.
29:37
I've done that many times because to your point,
29:40
it doesn't have to be recapping every piece of
29:43
the conversation you had, but it's like that
29:45
this is what we agreed upon. This is the next
29:47
steps because sometimes you have a great conversation
29:49
and maybe it was productive and then you walk
29:51
away and you're both not on the same page. So
29:53
just sort of documenting like this is what we
29:55
agreed to. This is what you're going to do. So
29:56
I'm going to do, here's the timeline. Then there
29:59
helps to eliminate the miscommunication. So I'm
30:02
a big fan of yes, have the conversation in person
30:04
and it doesn't have to be an HR style, documented
30:07
email, but at least ensuring that you're on the
30:10
same page when you walk away. And then it is.
30:12
Yes, yes, exactly. And I think even in my the
30:16
last 20 some years or so as a speaker, I'm in
30:19
a lot of conversations with people who are in
30:22
different geographic location. And I find myself
30:25
using email, even when it's not a difficult conversation.
30:27
conversation saying, you know, as we agreed,
30:29
you know, we'll meet up here, you know, at this
30:32
point, we'll go do the book signing or we'll
30:34
go here. And so I'm just confirming the details
30:37
just to make sure that there's no confusion,
30:39
even when it's not a difficult. Absolutely. Now
30:42
that's huge. I need to see things in writing.
30:45
So give me the stuff in writing because I might
30:47
just based out on the conversation part. So exactly.
30:51
Memory laps if I don't have it written down somewhere.
30:54
Absolutely. I need to write down everything in
30:56
my handwriting. I'm reminded earlier today that
30:58
it's atrocious. So I need somebody to type it
31:01
or I need to type it. So we're on the same page
31:03
and it's legible. Well, this is awesome. And
31:05
we can probably talk about this all day. So any
31:07
final takeaways for our listeners to be able
31:10
to deliver those tough messages and have the
31:12
uncomfortable conversations, but how do you be
31:14
nice and mean what you say? Yeah, I think I would
31:17
just close with what we started out with, which
31:21
is the motto of say what you mean, mean what
31:24
you say, but it doesn't have to be mean. that
31:26
there is a lot of, I think a lot of latitude
31:29
in between saying nothing and being ugly. So
31:33
just remembering that we can still say things
31:36
and do that in a positive way. That's great.
31:39
And I love your 10 power phrases. We'll definitely
31:41
share that when this episode goes out. Because
31:44
it's nice to see that and kind of just look at
31:45
it every once in a while and be like, oh, hey,
31:47
I'm struggling. What do I need to do here? So
31:49
that's awesome. So Sarita, if people want to
31:51
follow you, learn more about you, find your books,
31:54
where can they connect with you? Yeah. Well,
31:56
Amazon is the best bet. And I'm excited because
32:00
I've had a chance to narrate both my books. And
32:02
they're both on Audible. So it's paperback, Kindle,
32:05
and Audible. So whatever format you prefer. It's
32:08
all three of those. And then of course, seretamaven
32:11
.com is my website. And you can certainly connect
32:15
with me there. And one of the things I should
32:16
also mention is on the homepage of my website,
32:19
you can sign up to get my monthly, what do you
32:21
say? Communique. And so once a month I send out
32:24
a communication tip. And that's a great way to
32:27
stay connected as well. And a great way to be
32:29
reminded of how to be a better communicator.
32:30
I will be signing up for that today, for sure.
32:33
That's amazing. Well, thank you so much for being
32:35
here. This has been super helpful. And thanks
32:38
for getting on and lifting with us. Thank you
32:39
to Sarita for sharing her expertise with us.
32:42
Whether it's communicating in the office or in
32:44
your home, it's important to take a step back
32:46
and evaluate how we are speaking. If your messages
32:49
don't seem to be received by the way you're intending,
32:51
then it's worth a deeper dive into your style,
32:54
your words, your choices and your delivery. If
32:57
this helped, share it with a woman leader who's
32:59
navigating a hard conversation today. Subscribe,
33:02
leave a quick review, and grab more resources
33:04
at LoudAndLifted .com. Until next time, stay
33:08
loud, in a nice way, and keep lifting.