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JUST SA Gauteng — Motlanalo Mautla · TIPS Podcast

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast, Tips Talk, the show where we delve into the fascinating world of economics and its impact on global development.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Note Mbi Matlangu, and today we are asking why it is important for local and provincial government officials in the Ghaodeng province to understand the impact of climate change and the imperative to decarbonize our economy as well as make the transition just.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: We are finding ourselves today in Johannesburg to see how government officials can turn policy into action.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to say that we have a special guest with us today.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Joining us is Ms.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Mutlana Alo.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Before we get the discussion starting, could you introduce yourself and let us know what work that you're currently doing?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me this morning.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Mudlana Lomautla.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a project manager at the city of Ekurlene within the Environmental Resources and Waste Management Department within a division that is responsible for planning and delivering waste management and environmental management infrastructure.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: This will include your development and upgrades of landfill, waste storage facilities, your parks, cemeteries, procurement of waste specialized vehicles, waste containers, as well as policy development.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: So part of my daily work includes project planning and execution, stakeholder engagement, ensuring compliance with the environmental law in the implementation of our projects, budget management, procurement, gender process, and support the city in sustainability goals as well.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: I also participate in the climate action efforts through the city's climate change forum, which align waste with the Green Action Plan and the Climate Resilient Goals.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for the introduction.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: It is really important work that you are currently doing.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: After the intensive two-day training on the just transition and the green economy, you know, exploring everything from unlocking opportunities, green opportunities, and adapting strategies for the just transition from your perspective, what would you say were the key moments, you know, the key takeaways from the training?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: What stood out for you?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think the two days were both enlightening and empowering.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Generally, when we hear a new term or a new phenomenon is introduced, we just look at it from a distance.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: But once you start engaging and talk to people who are specialists in the area, it sort of starts to make sense to every person.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So what distinguished the training was its clear connection of the just transition framework to the daily realities faced by municipal authorities, particularly concerning waste management, service delivery, and environmental justice.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I especially valued the emphasis on the following.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, it's people-centered.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot talk just transition and leave the people out.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: The people becomes the drivers, the people become the key participants, the people becomes the people that will provide the inputs as to how we're going forward.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I loved that it stood out for me.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: You would recall that in the past there were issues that were addressed without the people, but for the people.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So just transition is people-centered.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's for the people, by the people, for the benefit of the people.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: One other thing that stood out for me, it's inclusivity with the focus of ensuring that the vulnerable groups are included.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it focuses on the people, for the people, and it digs deeper to focus on those that are vulnerable.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if I was to reflect on our sectors and identify the people that are we consider to be vulnerable, it's our waste pickers, people who go around scavenging in your bin to find recyclables, those are vulnerable.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: People who find themselves at the landfills because systems would have failed in the value chain where they're supposed to get the recyclables, those are vulnerable.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: The youth are vulnerable because they are in their youth, all of a sudden we need to transition from a less carbon economy.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So they may not understand what needs to be done, but just transition focus on that.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And one other thing that stands out for me, which I believe has a potential to break the silo approach in management, it's the system thinking.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at just transition, it doesn't say waste management, sit in your corner or environmental management, sit in your corner and do your thing.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: It says waste management, go speak to roads and transport.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Waste management, when you speak to roads transport, I'm thinking about the waste management value chain to think which areas of our operations have high potential of emissions.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's in transportation, it's at the landfill.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: So when we engage transport and roads, they need to recommend to us what are other possible ways that we can use to transport waste or to fuel the trucks that we use to transport waste without too much emissions that would have resulted from the banning of fuel.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it forces people to think systematically, not just to think about one issue and live it out.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also thinking about energy because we want to keep the amount of methane that is released as a way of making sure that the environment receives less carbon.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: We need to talk to energy to say energy.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: We have methane in our landfills.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: What do we do about it?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: You are the custodian of energy.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Methane can be turned into electricity.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's work together and harvest it in such regards.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: It also talks to the issues of land use as well.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot leave land use out.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: It also talks to the issues of climate resilience.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now that the climate has changed, what do we do about it within the various departments that we find ourselves in?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I was talking to the issue of systems thinking to say that the era of addressing waste at a corner or environment at a corner, it has come to an end.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: It requires all the multidisciplines to come together to address issues that will help us to transition justly.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the last part is the practical implementation pathways that we discussed in the training, which facilitated the reflection on how to incorporate just transition principles into existing waste management planning and operations.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we were able to identify what are the immediate things that we can do within the very same operations and the budget that we already have.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if you were to have a look at our integrated waste management plan that the council approved towards the end of 2025, you will see that indeed we took the lessons from the training and incorporated them into our planning.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because one of the key things that we need to start working on as part of the implementation plan is the promotion of secular economy.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we know with secular economy it addresses the issue of emissions, it addresses the issues of reliance on vision materials.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it promotes the use of secondary materials, which in some way it reduces the amount of energy that you would need to process a certain material before it gets to a desired level, which you could use.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's basically what I can say about the two days of the training.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's really exciting to hear that there's a lot happening in the office.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of policies that you are infusing.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, looking at your province, what would you say is the biggest opportunities?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you mentioned waste management, you mentioned transportation.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say are the opportunities for advancing the just transition?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think before we talk about the opportunities, we need to highlight the challenges, but we do not look at the challenges in isolation.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: We see challenges and we also identify the opportunities that can come from there.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: So Houting and the city of Igorlain in particular, we both face significant challenges and powerful opportunities in the context of just transition.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, I'll focus on the challenges first and move to the opportunities.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the first challenges that I've identified is the increasing waste generation, which is attached to population growth and the pressure on landfill space.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is the landfill space, it's not available.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: But on the other side, we're dealing with increased waste generation.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: So landfills are filling up quickly and developing new ones is difficult and expensive.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the challenge.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going to say people must stop eating?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going to say industries must stop being productive?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Are we going to say no generation of waste?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a wishful thinking, but we cannot do away with it.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of human life and waste need to be managed.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: The second challenge, it's illegal dumping and environmental pollution.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: It affects the vulnerable communities, which just transition focuses on them.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: It creates health and safety risks.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: The third challenge that we have is data and digital system gaps.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Without these systems, planning cannot be done.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: You will plan, but you will plan, I mean, because every planning requires data.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the gaps that we have.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, in my opinion, as the province and as the city, we still have serious data gap and system challenges.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, but let's look at the opportunities that are attached to just transitioning.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, it's job creation through recycling and secular economy initiatives.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, with like I said, that we included secular economy initiatives and recycling in our planning, the plan that is approved and adopted by council, it forces us that we need to go engage key stakeholders in that regard.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And here there is a potential that the vulnerable groups, the waste pickers who are just working around, are looking at a bean for a potential to get some recyclables.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now we integrate them in the system and sort of we do it in a formal way.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the plan.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: The plan to formalize it so that their working conditions become safe and not hazardous to their well-being.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the opportunities that we see.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So which we're looking at waste diversion, source separation, and green economies.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we also see an opportunity of integration of just transition into the IWMPs and strategic plans, which are tools that drive waste management.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you were to go look at our IWMP, like I said earlier, you will see that we have incorporated a lot of plans that will help us to drive the city towards a green city in the sense of waste diversion, specifically speaking to organic waste diversion.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: When we look at our waste composition, organic waste it covers the majority of waste that we handle.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we know very well that once you landfill organic waste, eventually you're going to have the production of methane at a landfill, which is not good for the environment, which is it's one of the issues that causes climate change.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to address that, and in that we're looking at composting so that we have materials that we need to manage our parks, to manage our cemeteries without spending extra money.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: But what we're just doing, we're just making that waste circulated and used in other forms where it has been processed for suitability.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last opportunity that I can think of is climate adaptation.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Waste sector projects like myth and reduction.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: I spoke to it when I was speaking about the landfill harvesting, and I just touched on it now when we speak about composting and improved collection directly, support climate resilience.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So overall, I'll say just transition offers municipalities the opportunity to transform waste from an environmental burden into a driver of inclusive economic development while protecting communities and ecosystems, because communities will exist and ecosystems support the existence of the economy.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I believe that just transition will enable us as the municipality, eventually as the province, to achieve that.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, thank you for that.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is the core of the work of Just Transition, you know, community and also just looking at climate resilience.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, looking at the unique dynamics of the province, and you mentioned the plans.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Can you expand a bit on that?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: On like what unique dynamics there are in terms of the stakeholders, in terms of any other leaders that you are connecting with?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So as the city, we have various stakeholders.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Some are at local level, some are within the city, some at provincial level, and some are at national level.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: If I was to use one project as an example, let's say we're going to develop a cell at a landfill site.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the first key stakeholders are the neighboring properties around where the landfill is.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: We need to engage those.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Someone can just be interested in the project.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the people who are around the facility will be the affected parties because the operations of the landfill will affect them.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: But someone could be just an environmentalist in the area or an NPO in the area.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're just interested in the project.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to engage them.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then going at provincial level, obviously within the city itself, we need to engage our sister departments like finance because they need to make funding available for the development.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: We engage our legal department because they need to ensure that whatever process or projects that we're implementing, it's within the ambit of the law.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: They just verify that and give their comments and the stuff.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And our also internally within the same department, because I'll be speaking from the projects department, is the end user.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: They need to know to be involved in the project from the beginning to the end so that to see whatever that we are developing or the project that we're implementing, the outcome will be suitable for their operations.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then going at province, we consider Houting Department of Environmental Management as a competent authority because they authorize the activities, waste management activities together with the National Department of Water Affairs at national.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we will also engage them as a key stakeholder.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And also remember when we do planning at departmental level, it fits into planning at municipal level in the integrated development plan.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So even there, we still engage other stakeholders at ward level, ward uh counselors, people based within the wards, so that they know what the department is planning to do through the IDP.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: So our stakeholders differs depending on the project, but generally everyone in the city is our stakeholder, those that we provide the service for.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, thank you so much for that.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, just to end off, how do you see the just transition discussion connecting to your own work?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, going back to the office, how would you infuse those policies into the work that you're doing?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Alrighty.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, when uh we were talking about challenges and opportunities, when we opportunities, I indicated one of the policy documents we have within the city.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: There are many, but I will not talk to that because I'm more familiar with this one because I worked on it.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't do justice to the other ones.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: I know what the contents are, but I'm comfortable with this one.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, when anything that is policy driven or plan driven, you have a chance of committing to it and implementing it.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mentioned that the IWMP, which the city just developed, that was adopted or approved by council rather, it integrates the waste diversion, promotion of secular economy, the integration of waste speakers, which is one of the things that I appreciate about just transition, the inclusion of the vulnerable.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if your strategic policy or your strategic plan highlights those issues with set targets, you are likely to be able to achieve.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And because this training that we are making reference to came before we could start working on our plan, we were well informed in terms of what are the key issues that we need to include in the plan.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that we did justice to it.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And to someone, it may look like justice was not done, but there's always the beginning of something.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Once you start something, the next time you do it, you are in a better position to change it to what you would want it to be because you would have seen whether it has worked or it has failed, unlike just waiting to start some day which does not have a definite date.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: But when you have committed to something with a specific uh time frame, it is easier to measure how you have performed as well.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if I was to speak to project as well, I would say we can embed uh just transition policies in our engagement with the communities during project planning, particularly in areas affected by environmental pollution.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we can also strengthen compliance measures and environmental protections to support a safer and healthier environment.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I believe that at any level, you know, even in at a level where you're just having an engagement with your colleague in an office, you can talk about the just transition principles to say, I hear you going to be implementing this project.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Have you included this portion?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Have you included this principle of the just transition?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Have you included the vulnerable?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Have you considered the effects of environment?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Have you considered the benefits?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Whose stent to benefits?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is it for all the people in the community or is it just for the selected few?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I basically believe that in daily discussion, I mean even up to policy level in the department or within the city, just transition principles can be embedded.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for sharing your insights today.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's been great hearing your perspective, and we really hope that our listeners draw inspiration from your insights.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you once again.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for inviting me and for having me.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: That wraps up today's episode.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: A huge thank you to our guests for sharing their expertise and time with us and for attending this training.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you'll continue to champion the mandate of greening the economy in a just and equitable way.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And to our listeners, your support means the world to us.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, sustainable growth is not just a goal, but a path to a more resilient and prosperous future.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and connect with us on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, I'm your host, Note Mima Fangu, signing off.