Latest / The Two Authors’ Podcast / Keep on Thrilling with Lisa Gardner

Transcript

Keep on Thrilling with Lisa Gardner · The Two Authors’ Podcast

0:00
- Thanks so much, fun to be here.
0:01
I'm so excited to be grilled by two authors.
0:04
(laughing)
0:06
- She says that now.
0:07
(laughing)
0:11
- Welcome to the Two Authors podcast,
0:13
an entertaining chat show hosted by bestselling mystery
0:17
and thriller authors, Douglas Pratt and Nicholas Harvey,
0:20
in lively, humorous and informative conversation
0:24
with distinguished guests who share their thoughts
0:26
experience about forging a successful author career.
0:33
Welcome to this week's show brought to you by vellum, of
0:39
course.
0:42
vellum is the best formatting solution in the entire world.
0:47
Galaxy.
0:47
The whole galaxy, yes.
0:49
And did you know? So I knew this, but I hadn't messed with it
0:53
for ages, because I kind of set the format that I do the
0:56
interior of the books with and haven't touched it in probably years at this point.
1:00
But I was chatting about it with another friend the other day and I forgot when
1:03
you're in vellum on the left hand column at the top, there's this little swirly
1:06
pattern thing, which I don't know what to call it apart from a swirly pattern thing.
1:10
But if you click on it, it changes the left column.
1:13
Yeah, that's the technical term.
1:14
I think that's what they refer to it as.
1:16
I wish you'd asked Brad.
1:16
Yeah.
1:17
The swirly.
1:18
And these two knowledgeable guys talking about this thing, the swirly thing on the
1:23
left hand side.
1:25
Click on it.
1:25
You click on it, this swirly thing, no, that's swirly thing, the other swirly thing.
1:31
Anyway, if you open that, it opens the Styles menu and it brings up the standard format
1:37
styles, which most of us just pick one and go with that.
1:41
But on the top right of that is a little drop down and you can go in and start editing
1:46
within that template of that style and tune it as you see fit.
1:49
So vellum, thinking of everyone, has these standard styles that you could use that fit
1:56
most people and then you can go in and customize it if you want to get real trick about it.
1:59
No, that's fanciety.
2:01
Did you get real trick about yours?
2:02
Because I'm just a custom kind of a guy, just go with a template kind of guy.
2:05
Yeah, I went pretty simple and I've kept it the same and I don't like a bunch of crazy
2:11
formatting going on as we've discussed before.
2:13
The swirly thing.
2:15
This bothers you.
2:16
Swirly thing.
2:17
So now it won't go in your vellum go looking for the swirly thing. All right big
2:21
Thank you also to our patreon supporters
2:23
Thanks for a couple of bucks a month and you can jump in and get the bonus questions stuff
2:28
And we do a bonus question with every guest that we have and you get to hear that in there
2:32
It's always these you're a juicy nugget of info so worth it and it supports the show helps us bring this to you and
2:41
Well guest today. Oh boy. You'll be exciting
2:43
I am Fangirling.
2:45
The amazing New York Times bestselling thriller author Lisa Gardner is with us today.
2:50
So we'll chat with her shortly, but first of all, we have a listener question from our
2:53
recent guest and another amazing Lisa, our good friend Lisa Reagan.
2:59
Lisa Reagan, thank you so much for sticking around for a listener question.
3:04
So lay it on us.
3:05
What you got for us?
3:06
For authors, what is the strangest thing that you saw, heard or experienced in real
3:13
life that you tried to put in a book and were told either by an editor or by readers after
3:19
the book came out that it was ridiculous or not realistic.
3:26
Oh, I can tell you right off the bat.
3:30
This is less so something strange, I saw, but something I got way wrong and I have a
3:35
sailboat is in my first book.
3:37
I got how fast the sailboat would go wrong and I thought I fixed it in a couple of spots,
3:42
that's apparently still one spot floating out there
3:44
where I get comments all the time about me
3:46
not knowing anything about sailing.
3:48
But as far as outrageous things that I put into a book,
3:50
I put some outrageous stuff into the books.
3:52
Sometimes I'm like, they'll never let this fly
3:55
and they tend to let it go for the most part,
3:58
but mine are a little bit more outrageous
4:00
and blowy up than say Nick.
4:02
So what do you got, Nick?
4:04
- I was trying to think.
4:05
There's a couple of things come to mind.
4:06
They're probably not outrageous.
4:08
I've had people comment on scuba diving stuff before and like,
4:13
"Oh, you couldn't do that scuba diving."
4:15
And these people don't actually scuba dive
4:17
and they're just saying, it's like,
4:18
"Yeah, I kind of a scuba diver.
4:20
I've been doing it a while.
4:21
I got a couple of dives and certifications.
4:24
I make sure all the scuba diving is plausible.
4:26
It might stretch it a bit, but it's definitely plausible."
4:29
But there was one that cracks me up
4:31
is I had in an A.J. Bailey book,
4:33
she has the motorcycle that I introduced after a while.
4:36
She rides a Ducati Multistrada, the smaller version.
4:40
She can barely tiptoe on it, right?
4:42
But when she's going, she's good.
4:43
It's kind of an adventure bike, so it's kind of an off-road style.
4:46
I put a motorcycle chase in there, of course.
4:48
Nora's actually on the back of the bike with her, and they go racing through Grand Cayman.
4:52
This is a really fun scene that I wrote because I wasn't in Cayman.
4:57
I was in the States at the time, and I'm looking on the maps to see where I can go.
5:01
There's this one section.
5:02
I've kind of told a story before, I think.
5:04
I couldn't tell what this was.
5:06
It looked like these white blocks in this thing by the beach.
5:10
I wanted, there was a perfect trail for her to go racing through on this motorcycle.
5:15
So I WhatsApped my friend over here, Casey Keller, who works for the DOE.
5:20
And she's like, "What is this?
5:22
Look on a map."
5:23
She goes, "Where is it?"
5:24
I'm describing, we're going back and forth.
5:25
She goes, "Well, I'm in West Bay."
5:27
So she drives in her DOE truck over there.
5:29
And she goes, "It's a cemetery."
5:31
I'm like, "What?"
5:31
It's these huge concrete, what are they called?
5:34
A mausoleum, not a mausoleum.
5:35
Muslims, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Muslim because it's by the water and they flood so and that's what it is and there's this scene
5:43
So I wrote this whole motorcycle chase scene through there
5:45
And it was really cool how it came about and everything else
5:47
You know, I've ridden motorcycles my whole life and my wife rode motorcycles for many years
5:51
So I put the scene in the book it went out there and actually one of her sisters who rode a motorcycle a little bit go
5:57
Well, that's ridiculous a girl couldn't ride like that and I'm like
6:01
Yeah
6:05
No
6:05
to send her a bunch of videos of the amazing stuff that can be done by man or female on
6:12
a motorcycle.
6:13
I will say several years ago, it was a concern because sometimes I do some outrageous stunts
6:18
in mine and I was reading one of Mark Graney's "Gray Man" series, I forget which one, but
6:23
he has him flying into a Russian estate underneath an ultralight so he's controlling it by hanging
6:31
and I was like, "Okay, if he can do that and be on the New York Times bestseller list
6:34
than I can do any fucking thing I want to do.
6:36
- Yeah. - So what?
6:37
- It's wide open.
6:39
- It's wide open.
6:40
- All right, how about you, Lisa?
6:41
What you got?
6:41
- Well, mine is not as exciting as that,
6:43
but I had this scene early on in Vanishing Girls
6:46
where Josie was going through the woods
6:48
and she sees this abandoned house.
6:50
This is just one example.
6:51
I have a second one that's a little sexier,
6:53
but there's a tree that is growing straight up
6:56
through the center of the house.
6:57
And my editor made me take it out
6:59
'cause she was like, "There's just no way
7:01
that this would happen in life."
7:03
And I was like, but I've seen it.
7:04
- Yeah, but I have seen this.
7:07
Yeah.
7:08
- And then the other one,
7:09
I wanted to do a book where Gentanism mountainous region.
7:12
So you've got these winding mountain roads
7:15
and let's say a woman disappears during the summer
7:18
and in the fall and winter,
7:19
when all the leaves fall off the trees,
7:21
her car is suspended hanging between two trees
7:25
on the side of the mountain,
7:26
which has happened in central Pennsylvania.
7:29
And they were like, no, not never.
7:32
- That was helpful.
7:33
- Oh my God.
7:34
- The other thing was for readers was in book 11,
7:37
I had Josie on this mountain road in central Pennsylvania
7:41
and she could not get a signal on her phone,
7:44
which is that is based on actual experience.
7:47
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:49
- I remember being, my dad used to have this house
7:51
at the mountains and you would have to go
7:53
to the corner of the living room.
7:55
And I'm talking like in the whole town.
7:56
- And hold it, hold your cell up.
7:58
- Hold it up and you might get one bar.
8:01
So she's, you know, like in one of those areas,
8:03
she can't get reception.
8:04
And I had all these readers contact me and say,
8:08
that's not possible.
8:11
(laughs)
8:11
- They should come to my house
8:12
'cause I get one bar a second more.
8:14
- Yeah, that's good to say.
8:16
Doug has to travel an hour to do the podcast
8:18
'cause he can't get any kind of cell reception
8:20
or internet at his house.
8:22
Yeah, people don't always understand that,
8:23
especially if you live in a city,
8:25
like people who don't get out in the country at all,
8:27
no idea what it's like out there
8:30
but that it gets, you know, and we were talking with Craig Johnson, you know,
8:34
the Longmire series living in Wyoming. He says the same problem. He's like,
8:37
you get up there and there's no signal. And they, you know,
8:40
readers be like, uh, that's not possible. He'd have a cell phone.
8:43
It doesn't work here. So.
8:45
Brilliant. All right, Lisa. Thank you. Great question.
8:47
Thanks a lot for sticking around and doing a list and a question for her.
8:50
And now we'll get on to this week's interview.
8:56
Lisa Gardner, this is an absolute pleasure to have you on the show.
8:59
Thank you so much for joining us.
9:01
How are you?
9:02
- Great, and it's so much fun to be here.
9:04
I'm so excited to be grilled by two authors.
9:07
(laughing)
9:09
- She says that now.
9:12
- That should be our sound mic right there
9:13
for like later on.
9:14
- Lisa was excited.
9:15
- He'll get out there and like use that as I call it.
9:17
- But she was excited.
9:18
(laughing)
9:19
All right, so give us a little bit of background.
9:20
I think most people know of Lisa Gardner,
9:23
but give us a little background
9:24
on how you first got started in writing and published.
9:26
- Well, I'm a little different.
9:27
I actually wrote my first book at 17 and sold it at 20.
9:31
I lived in Oregon.
9:32
I knew nothing about publishing.
9:34
I was just an avid reader.
9:36
I got it in my head 'cause when you're 17,
9:38
you don't know any better that I could write a book
9:41
'cause I never met an editor, an agent, an author.
9:44
I knew nothing about publishing.
9:46
I really did just literally write a book.
9:49
- Well, you know, sometimes it's helpful to be,
9:50
like, you know, 17 year olds as a general rule
9:52
think they can do anything anyway.
9:54
So if you don't know, you can't do it.
9:55
Then you might as well do it.
9:56
- The moral of my story is a little bit ignorance is bliss.
10:00
Wrote this manuscript, stuck it under my bed,
10:02
went off to college, people are like,
10:04
what did you do for your summer?
10:05
I'm like, I wrote a book.
10:07
And they're like, that's weird.
10:08
It's like, is it?
10:10
(laughing)
10:12
Apparently if you're a book nerd,
10:13
you don't know these things,
10:15
you just figure everyone has a book under their bed.
10:17
I don't know.
10:17
- Yeah, that's true.
10:18
Yeah, it is always weird as a kid.
10:20
Yeah, I was always writing too
10:22
and people I knew didn't write.
10:24
And I was like, why wouldn't you write?
10:25
It's just, you know.
10:26
Yeah, in your free time, this is what you did.
10:28
Like you get these kind of like weird looks.
10:30
But then it was really other people saying,
10:33
well, you should publish it.
10:35
'Cause I hadn't gotten that far.
10:37
Again, I knew nothing about publishing.
10:40
So this was pre-internet.
10:43
It was just back in the day.
10:44
I'm like the diner sort of authors at this point.
10:46
- I was gonna say you're only 34,
10:48
so this was only a few years ago.
10:49
- Yeah, this was the, I love you for that alone.
10:52
But yeah, so there was actually
10:55
into these things called libraries, and they're filled with actual books that are reference
10:59
materials. And one of them was the Writers Market. It's so much fun to tell these stories
11:05
now, the blank stairs and the high-heels. Absolutely awesome.
11:10
I found my copy of the Writers Market from 1994 that I had in my, it's in my barn. It's
11:16
now water damaged, but I was like, "Gotcha, Doug. Gotcha."
11:19
Okay, yeah. Yeah.
11:20
But yeah, I used that and then I waited three years,
11:24
but you gotta like this.
11:26
I was so arrogant 'cause you're a kid.
11:28
I wrote two more books 'cause surely they will discover me.
11:31
- There you go.
11:32
- And I wrote the Stephen King and this will be amazing.
11:36
And well, eventually I did sell all three of those books
11:41
for enough money to buy my first computer,
11:43
my first printer, go to McDonald's in my free time.
11:48
(laughing)
11:49
But that would probably give you the bug.
11:50
I'm sure, yeah, at that point,
11:52
like the minute you sell the first one,
11:53
you're like, "Oh, I can do more of that."
11:56
- That's interesting.
11:57
I have a family that is quote unquote
11:59
really into real jobs.
12:01
(laughing)
12:03
- Oh yes.
12:03
- So I even thought of it as a hobby,
12:05
and to be honest, my first 10 years I made hobby money,
12:10
but I went out in the real world
12:11
and I discovered I didn't like it much.
12:14
And it turns out I don't like bosses.
12:17
Who knows?
12:18
I tell everybody I am 100% unemployable right now.
12:21
Like a boss would tell me to do something,
12:23
I'd be like, "Yeah, you can go fuck yourself."
12:24
- I wanna do it, I'm so excited.
12:26
The minute someone else wants me to do something,
12:28
even if it was something I had a minute before wanted to do,
12:31
no, now I have zero interest, so.
12:33
- Very defiant, you're just like, whatever, no,
12:35
you can't tell me to make money.
12:36
- It turns out I'm not exactly employable.
12:38
You nailed it.
12:41
- That's fair, one of these days we'll have a,
12:43
like a old folks home for writers who can't do anything else.
12:47
That's all we're gonna be doing.
12:48
But I will say I joined a writers group
12:50
and this is something I don't think a lot of people know.
12:52
Writers, fellow authors are amazing.
12:55
And it was actually my fellow authors who were like,
12:57
"Oh my God, you have no idea what you're doing."
12:59
And I'm like, "I have no idea what I'm doing."
13:00
And they're like, "You need to get an agent.
13:02
You need to do this. You need to do that."
13:04
So I got my first agent.
13:05
She read the stuff I had been publishing,
13:07
which was small little genre fiction.
13:09
And she's like, "Your violence is so good,
13:12
which is always remains where it's dear to my heart."
13:15
- Probably is good.
13:16
- Oh yeah.
13:17
It's like, write me a mainstream thriller where you kill a lot of people and there's
13:21
a serial killer.
13:22
So that's what I did.
13:24
And then 10 years later, I got to be an overnight success.
13:29
That's awesome.
13:30
I mean, it's an amazing story in the fact that you actually had success with your first
13:36
novels and got some attention and got somewhere in the time frame that you did it because
13:41
there was no shortcut.
13:42
You couldn't self publish and just do it yourself at the time.
13:45
No, but you also didn't necessarily make a livable wage.
13:49
I mean, there was that too.
13:50
But I mean, the only way to learn to write is to write.
13:54
And so I wasn't necessarily making bank, but I had contracts and I wrote because you had to write.
14:02
And I mean, without those 10 years, there's no way I would could have become the thriller writer I am now.
14:08
Of course. And how many books do you have in your belt now?
14:11
I've been in the business 35 years.
14:14
Nick just told me you were 34 and so that's, yeah, I started in utero. That's what that that's what we got from this
14:22
You know your child prodigies you got nothing on me
14:26
Yeah, that's right
14:29
I came out with a 200 000 word manuscript
14:33
It was harder for them both than it was for me. Yeah, I think I'm thrillers. I think I'm almost
14:39
30, but I wrote all these genre fiction things before then. So I think I'm closing 40. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't count. I don't care
14:47
I feel like if you're an author, it's what you're working on now that matters
14:51
Okay, yeah, as much as I yeah, we lose we've told both talk about it. We count on like the series we have
14:56
And people ask you what's your favorite book the one i'm working on right now
15:00
Oh, i'm better than that. I'm like anyone that's already done
15:07
- It's off of my list.
15:08
Usually the one I hate too, I'm like, gosh, I don't know.
15:12
- All right, well, no doubt you're working
15:14
on something else already,
15:16
but coming out on August the 4th is "You'll Be Sorry".
15:20
So let's talk about that a little bit.
15:22
Am I right in saying it's a tad darker?
15:25
I mean, you write some dark stuff,
15:26
but this one's a tad darker still, right?
15:29
- It was so much fun for me to write "You'll Be Sorry"
15:31
'cause it's actually a return to my thriller roots
15:35
when I first started, you know, all those years ago,
15:38
because I started out with writing gothics,
15:41
because that's what I loved.
15:42
And back in the 80s, the gothics were huge.
15:45
Then it all became serial killers and police procedurals.
15:49
And I enjoyed writing those,
15:51
but we are back to everything old is new again.
15:54
Gothics are back.
15:55
So I was kind of like, hello, I love this stuff.
15:59
So you'll be sorry's by first standalone and forever,
16:02
because I've been writing police procedurals,
16:04
the Frankie Elkin, Sleuth novels kind of thing where, you know, you have a small mountain
16:11
village where everyone thinks they know each other.
16:13
But there's all these deep dark secrets.
16:15
And then 30 years ago, this family of six disappeared.
16:19
No one knows how.
16:20
But now, mysterious young couple who's overtaken the crime scene as their new home.
16:26
Gee, what will happen next?
16:29
How about that?
16:30
She just created the blurb right there.
16:34
- She did, that's the way, we're gonna edit that out for you
16:38
as your Facebook posts for the next couple of weeks.
16:41
- I mean, it was so much fun to write.
16:44
I mean, I just love those.
16:45
And I think like a lot of thriller writers,
16:48
I love the things we think we know,
16:51
not just about our neighbors, our community, about,
16:54
gee, the person sleeping beside us in the bed,
16:57
the whole nature of the gothics is,
16:59
person you should fear isn't the stranger danger.
17:03
It's not the Ted Bundy's of the world.
17:05
It's the person you are madly in love with.
17:07
That's where the terror should start.
17:09
Like, who does love that?
17:11
Come on.
17:12
(laughing)
17:14
- I'm gonna have to be careful.
17:16
Somehow I've got to avoid my wife listening to this.
17:18
(laughing)
17:20
She already questions some of the things I do in the books.
17:23
So it's like, really you came up with that idea?
17:26
- That's, that's, that's bang.
17:27
So do you ever like read something and you're like,
17:29
hmm, wow, I really did.
17:31
I did come up with something dark
17:33
in that thought.
17:34
- I just go with that's classic.
17:37
So, you know, if your wife reads this stuff,
17:39
you're like, oh, that's not me, dear.
17:41
That's a classic book element.
17:43
We have been afraid of the people we've loved
17:46
since time began, which is kind of an interesting
17:49
psychological thing, if this was a therapy broadcast.
17:51
We could have a lot of fun with that.
17:53
- If this was a therapy broadcast,
17:55
that therapist would probably have a lot of time
17:56
with me next, so don't worry.
17:59
So one of the things that Nick,
18:00
as we were talking about, getting ready for this,
18:02
When we talked about one of the things you do, which I think you do really well, is you
18:05
kind of use locations almost like a character.
18:08
And so like in this upcoming, it's like the house in itself.
18:11
So I mean, is that more, is it deliberate or is that kind of something that just organically
18:15
is happening as you're writing along?
18:17
I'm actually very grateful to hear you say that because I feel like in the beginning
18:21
of my career, that's actually what I really struggled with.
18:25
I've always been a good author in terms of character development and that deep internal
18:30
point of view. But location setting my brother very famously read my first book and said,
18:37
you know, none of your characters are wearing clothes. Come on, you're running from a serial
18:43
killer. Are you really reflecting on your fashion choices? I reread the book and he was correct.
18:49
There was actually no descriptors of anything like I'm poor at that. But later in my career,
18:56
it has become clear to me, you can really use setting. And there's some authors very famously,
19:02
Tammy Hogue was one who was like, "Setting is always the fourth character." And I've loved that,
19:07
but it's something I've consciously worked on. So intentional in a way of like, I'm trying to do,
19:14
if you've had a long career and you're a writer, you're an author, you're trying to learn new tricks.
19:19
So thank you very much. I feel better about my learning curve.
19:25
You definitely know I mean I'm just I'm reading the Frankie Elkins which is the Afghanistan story and setting and stuff like that.
19:33
I'm both the two son setting and the story from Afghanistan put you in those locations so it's it's a brilliantly done and we'll talk about that some more.
19:43
And now let's hear from this episode's sponsor.
19:46
How to plan, write, and promote a profitable series
19:49
by author, educator, and founder of Heart Breathings, Sarah Cannon,
19:52
whose author-nation session is built around one idea.
19:55
Every book in a series should sell the next one.
19:58
Everything else flows from that.
20:00
You'll map a bingeable series concept,
20:02
build the arc, and leave with the release timing
20:04
that actually moves read-through numbers.
20:06
Author-nation.live.
20:07
Join us November 10th through 13th in Las Vegas.
20:10
And now let's get back to the show.
20:13
I know you said you've never planned on writing a series. The characters have just spoken to you
20:19
and had more to say and they've become a series. So Amanda Grady, maybe?
20:25
You know, I have to admit, after the classic thing and you'll be sorry, I really like her.
20:31
And I live in a small town. So for you want the insider's point of view. So when I was writing,
20:37
and you'll be sorry, it takes place in a town,
20:40
sure for New Hampshire, which is fictional,
20:42
but might bear a startling resemblance to the town
20:45
I live in, not very peopily,
20:47
as many authors are not very peopily.
20:50
Did you guys ever watch that show, "Northern Exposure"?
20:54
- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
20:56
- My town is Northern Exposure.
20:58
- Oh wow.
20:59
- We're small, we know each other,
21:00
but we're weird, we're eclectic.
21:02
- They're gonna look at you even weird
21:04
when this book comes out and they realize
21:05
that it's based around that town.
21:07
- Signed to their fate at this point.
21:10
We have three New York Times bestselling authors
21:13
in a town of 600.
21:15
- What?
21:16
- Yeah, and three very disparate careers.
21:19
A memoir author, a true, I'm the suspense author
21:23
and someone who does, I'm like John Krakauer.
21:27
So like who knew in a million years this would be?
21:30
So we're very the eclectic community.
21:32
- You guys like get together and have like coffee
21:35
and like just talk about your books
21:37
'cause we have nobody in Memphis
21:38
that can talk to about books that are new.
21:40
- It is fun 'cause you kind of can,
21:42
except we definitely, just for, oh, I'm so sorry,
21:45
someone has decided to show up
21:47
because we're doing a live studio recording.
21:49
Can you edit out my dog barking,
21:51
or do you want me to do that?
21:52
- No, that's character.
21:53
- Oh, no, it's okay.
21:54
- Yeah, yeah.
21:54
- We love the dog barking.
21:56
My dog will bark in a minute.
21:57
We can bring him together.
21:58
They can just like--
21:59
- If you can have a cat or other critter
22:01
come across the table,
22:02
we've had that several times before.
22:03
That's a good one.
22:05
- And I have to say,
22:06
I think since COVID and Zoom, the animal crashing
22:09
is everything, like you just love that thing.
22:11
And a dog is a primary character, and you'll be sorry.
22:17
In fact, dog the dog is probably
22:18
one of my favorite characters, so we've got that.
22:22
- And you can't kill him,
22:23
'cause he's the favorite of everybody probably, so yeah, no.
22:26
- When I started writing thrillers,
22:27
I was given two rules to follow.
22:30
One is everyone has to be smart,
22:32
which is the villain and the police.
22:34
It can't be that things are happening
22:37
because someone was stupid.
22:39
It's just not satisfied.
22:40
It has to be a battle of wits.
22:41
And two, you cannot kill an animal.
22:45
So I think those are the rules
22:47
as much as any of us follow them.
22:49
- Well, some people can get away with it.
22:50
Like you could probably get away with killing a dog now,
22:53
but you know. - I don't think,
22:54
I mean, I think one of the things with commercial fiction
22:57
is you do have a contract with a reader.
23:00
I mean, I feel like stuff that dark,
23:02
I mean, if people talk about Peryl or her dark,
23:04
But I think the really dark stuff is literary fiction.
23:07
I mean, I think when someone's reading a thriller,
23:10
it's commercial fiction still.
23:12
You wanna be scared and want the kind of chills
23:15
and the, oh my God, but you don't wanna be, that's wrong.
23:18
Like that's horrifying.
23:20
You wanna be entertained, you wanna be, you know,
23:23
kind of, you know, oh my God, I know what's gonna happen next,
23:25
but you don't wanna be sad and go horrified.
23:28
You don't wanna be devastated.
23:29
- It's a cheap horror when you kill the animal.
23:32
I think it's you lose a portion of your audience when you do it.
23:37
- Each child talked about we don't like undeserving victims.
23:41
And like children, animals are innocent.
23:45
And one of the things when we're doing
23:46
commercial fiction and thrillers is, I mean,
23:50
back to your point, really people are reading this
23:52
because they want good versus evil and they want good to win.
23:56
If you have innocent victims,
23:58
you know, the collateral damage gets to be high
24:01
And it's no longer that cushion.
24:03
Like I want to be slightly kind of terrified
24:05
and slightly kind of intrigued on my sofa,
24:08
but I don't want to be saddened.
24:10
- And then you've got Stephen King kill your darling, so.
24:13
(laughing)
24:15
But he writes stuff a little differently.
24:17
- So I've got to kind of get back into your process a little bit.
24:20
How far out are you planning your projects?
24:22
Like, I mean, do you have to like approach your agent?
24:25
Or you don't?
24:26
- No, I don't even plot a novel, let alone the career.
24:30
I'm a very, very instinctive.
24:32
That sounds cool.
24:34
Also whimsical would be the other one.
24:35
(laughs)
24:37
- I think Discovery Writer is the term we like to use.
24:41
- Discovery Writer is what we've heard.
24:42
- Oh, oh, I'm totally gonna steal that.
24:44
I'm the self-discovery writer.
24:46
I will say when you're doing suspense,
24:48
we all cheat a little because, I mean, especially for myself,
24:51
I just spend a lot of my free time reading strange news
24:55
and true crime and stuff like that.
24:57
And the real world is so much crazier
24:59
than anything we could come up with.
25:01
But there'll be a case or there'll be something.
25:03
And for me, it'll be like, not just that's crazy,
25:06
but just how could that happen?
25:09
Why did that happen?
25:11
- I get fascinated by some of these news stories
25:12
where I'm like, "Ooh, I know I shouldn't be rooting
25:14
for the bad guy who just broke out of jail,
25:16
but how did he do that?
25:17
That's kind of cool."
25:18
- I'm fascinated right now with this whole psychology
25:20
of the prisoner correction officer dynamic
25:25
where it's inevitably some female correction officer
25:28
that helped the serial killer break out of jail.
25:31
You know that charismatic, but--
25:33
- I'm terrible at remembering the names of TV shows
25:36
and stuff, but there was just a series we watched recently
25:38
that had that, and they developed that relationship
25:41
and that's how he got out, and it was really well done.
25:43
- I mean, I get Ted Bundy, my very first novel,
25:46
thriller novel, The Perfect Husband.
25:48
I'm from the West Coast.
25:50
Was kind of based on Ted Bundy and The Stranger Beside Me,
25:53
'cause I grew up with all those girls vanishing.
25:56
But you look in this day and age of some of these breakouts
25:59
and you're like, you look at the photo of the inmate
26:02
that and you're just like, I don't get it.
26:04
- Okay, so I'm a big fan of Frankie Elkin.
26:07
So we got to talk about Frankie Elkin a little bit.
26:10
So an amazing successful series.
26:13
The subject matters are really interesting.
26:18
And am I right in saying you just wait until you find
26:20
something that really grabs you and you go,
26:23
I'm gonna put that into a Frankie Elkin.
26:24
Yes, and sadly, for better or for worse,
26:27
Frankie Elkin does not lack for cases.
26:30
Right, yeah, that's true, right?
26:32
There's plenty out there.
26:33
So one of the things that I think is
26:36
that I really want to ask you about,
26:37
'cause this plays into some of my writing and my characters,
26:41
is there is a lot of humor in a Frankie Elkin book.
26:44
I mean, her internal dialogue and her little one-liners are,
26:49
I woke my wife up the other night, laughing,
26:52
I was laughing, she just fallen asleep.
26:54
(laughs)
26:55
She's like, "Shut up."
26:56
How do you find that balance, right?
26:58
Because you have to have a balance with the humor in there.
27:01
'Cause if there's too much or in the wrong places,
27:03
it takes away the tension, all that stuff.
27:05
So how do you handle that?
27:07
- I will say, some of this is organic to me
27:09
and my family and the culture I grew up in.
27:13
We're pretty hardcore, but at the same time, dark humor.
27:16
It's like when I interview with police officers
27:18
and other people, it's like,
27:20
the dark humor is what gets them through.
27:22
I think also when you're writing dark and poor Frankie Elkin,
27:26
here's an everyday woman who for reasons
27:28
she can't even completely understand,
27:30
feels compelled to look for the missing
27:33
no one else even cares about.
27:35
And she's going into new situations where she knows no one
27:38
and she has to very quickly try to build
27:41
some connection network.
27:43
I mean, they end up being a support network
27:45
whether she's willing to admit that or not.
27:47
But you got to build contacts to investigate anything, right?
27:51
And her style and flair of doing that is humor.
27:55
And I think it's just also how she's wired.
27:58
The worst things get, the funnier she kind of is,
28:01
or the more, I wouldn't say it balances her out,
28:04
it's just a coping skill.
28:05
And I will say in terms of the writing process itself,
28:09
I always talk about it, it's what,
28:11
it's the Goldilocks thing,
28:13
where the first time might be too much,
28:15
then the second draft might be too little,
28:17
but the third draft,
28:19
(laughing)
28:22
- We all love a broken protagonist,
28:24
but again, fine line stuff, right?
28:26
Because like you said earlier, they can't be stupid,
28:29
but they've made bad decisions
28:30
and they've been down bad paths.
28:32
So describe Frankie, for anyone who hasn't read these books,
28:35
talk about Frankie a little bit in her background
28:37
'cause she's a very interesting character.
28:40
- Love Frankie.
28:41
I think she hit a huge chord with readers.
28:44
She's broken and she's trying to find a way.
28:47
She is that woman who in her younger life made all the wrong decisions.
28:52
But I mean, she does have this terrible tragic past.
28:55
Her parents loved her and they're both passed away now, but she talks about that a lot.
29:01
But yeah, her father was a pass out drunk.
29:04
He wasn't violent.
29:05
He wasn't abusive.
29:06
But yeah, he wasn't present.
29:08
Then he tried to be, then he wasn't what was worse.
29:11
And her mom was constantly compensating by working a million jobs.
29:15
So Frankie kind of raised herself into being a pass out drunk.
29:20
These are lives we know.
29:22
These are real human experiences.
29:25
And then somewhere along the way met this person
29:28
and was kind of like had enough time
29:31
on the other side of the police station.
29:32
She likes to joke when she deals with law enforcement now.
29:35
She's used to being in the other seat.
29:37
(laughs)
29:38
But what I love about her now as a protagonist,
29:42
so her kind of dry drunk,
29:44
She started reading articles and this is true to real life.
29:48
There's people who are doing this now. No background or special skill, but
29:52
it's kind of one of those, so much of us go through life not looking at the tragedies around us,
29:58
that someone else's problem. Frankie, it's like, it's all my problem. People keep telling her,
30:04
"This isn't your battle to fight." She's like, "It's always my battle to fight. Why isn't it
30:08
your battle to fight? Why don't we care more about the people around us?" I mean, if anything,
30:14
Frankie would say the rest of the world is wrong. But this is what she does now. She
30:18
goes down these rabbit holes of finding someone no one else cares about for no money. She has
30:24
no real job. I mean, she exists on the fringes, but she'll tell you as a pass out drunk, she
30:30
lived a lot on the fringes. So on the one hand, the lifestyle is comfortable to her.
30:36
But also, I think Frankie's appeal and Frankie's superpowers, she's not judgmental at all.
30:45
She's a great amateur sleuth in that, yeah, whatever crimes you think you committed, yeah,
30:50
been there, done that. I mean, I'm not here to tell you. I mean, by previous, you know, all my other
30:56
series have been police officers or detectives or FBI, who are people who have a certain
31:00
background and value system and moral code. And Frankie's been amazing because she's like,
31:07
you could screw up every single decision in your life. You can do incredibly bad things.
31:12
And you can still be a really good person who cares about the people around you. And I think
31:17
that just, that strikes a chord in so many people. Yeah, that's for sure. I know it's
31:23
interesting too, I think that the morality of thriller protagonists is always, it's got, you
31:30
anything to me because you know you have all sorts of characters who can be anywhere from
31:34
the Jack Reachers of the world to I think one of my favorites was Kinky Freedman who
31:38
played, he did like play himself in his own books but it's always this weird moral compass
31:43
that they all have their own particular one.
31:46
I think we always love the lone gunman so to speak or the cowboy that rides into town
31:51
or I think there's this universal and even global gestalt of bureaucracy, the trappings
31:59
of modern society, so many people fall through those cracks and no one's helping them.
32:05
And it takes Jack Reacher, Frankie Elkin, though I mean, she's not physical at all.
32:11
My other joke is when she rides into town, so to speak, the job she can get because she
32:15
has no life skills, so she can be a bartender.
32:18
But bartenders are famously good listeners.
32:22
And that actually is what her job is.
32:25
We ask the questions, she actually listens to the answers.
32:30
And I think that strikes a chord as well.
32:32
I think a lot in the world in general right now, we've lost our listening skills.
32:39
So speaking of Frankie, it was optioned a while, a few years back for TV.
32:44
Talk about that a little bit.
32:46
And if you can, where it's at, Hollywood's a very slow-moving vehicle.
32:52
But talk about that a little bit.
32:53
So Frankie's been exciting, not exciting, exciting, not exciting, which is how these
32:58
things work.
32:59
So during COVID, it was optioned by Hillary Swank, highlight of my career.
33:04
I got to be on Zoom with Hillary Swank.
33:06
We'll have to say, if you look at Hillary Swank, I'm like, "Oh my God, you are Frankie."
33:10
And that project went on for a bit, but then Hillary Swank engaged in another project which
33:16
was called Having Twins.
33:23
[laughter]
33:23
- Golly, yeah.
33:24
- Franky left that, but now Franky got optioned
33:27
by another source, but that's more recently,
33:30
and we're still now, I mean, we're reinventing the wheel now.
33:32
So.
33:33
- Well, fingers crossed for you, fingers crossed.
33:35
- Yeah, you know, all of us fingers crossed.
33:38
That's how this stuff works.
33:40
- A quick word from this episode sponsor.
33:43
- Hi everyone, it's Jamie Davis,
33:44
show manager from Author Nation here again.
33:47
Are you coming to the conference this November?
33:49
Definitely stop me for a free dad joke.
33:52
Like, why is the library often the tallest building in a town?
33:57
It has the most stories.
33:59
Now, back to the show.
34:02
You're very well known for your in-depth research.
34:05
So the first question I have is, have you ever
34:09
been working on something and trying to figure something out?
34:13
Hang on, I need to go there and either get in the car
34:16
or get on a plane and go, just spontaneous.
34:19
I prefer that.
34:21
It was actually interesting to write the most recent
34:24
Frankie book, "Kiss or Goodbye,"
34:26
because I couldn't go to Afghanistan
34:28
for some obvious reasons.
34:30
So doing that research was actually
34:32
one of the more troublesome for me.
34:33
I'm an author that believes, I mean,
34:37
I believe you wanna experience it if you can.
34:40
You wanna see it, touch it, taste it, feel it.
34:42
Nora Roberts, who's a huge romance women's fiction author
34:45
back in the day, I sat through some of her workshops
34:47
and she's like, you know, you should be able to set a scene
34:50
in like three sentences, but the trick is all five sentences.
34:54
And for most of us, we just describe how something looks.
34:59
And that's why you end up with pages and pages
35:01
and pages of description because you're having
35:03
a hard time capturing it.
35:04
We don't experience things solely in how things look.
35:08
It's how they smell, the touch, the feel.
35:10
And you can't get that if you're not there.
35:14
That's a thing you can't get from Google.
35:16
So I've been very famously because I, again,
35:20
live in the mountains of New Hampshire, which is limited.
35:23
I have been known to email people,
35:25
hey, I just read a blog where you help people
35:28
search for fugitives.
35:30
I'm an author, wouldn't you like to teach me
35:32
in upstate New York how to search for fugitives?
35:34
And it's amazing how many times they're like, what?
35:37
Well, okay, whatever, if you wanna, I mean.
35:40
(laughs)
35:41
I wanna abandon someone on a cave
35:43
and I want them to live for three days.
35:45
How would they do that?
35:47
You're a spelunker, tell me.
35:49
I mean, and then let's go look at the cave.
35:51
(laughing)
35:52
- Yeah, so, though, let's,
35:54
I wanna jump over here and ask you a little bit
35:55
about like thriller fest.
35:57
I mean, that's one of the things that we all,
35:58
but you've been,
35:59
you've been like director of large
36:00
with international thriller writers
36:02
who run thriller fest every year.
36:03
So what makes ITW and thriller fest so special to you?
36:07
'Cause your name always pops up when we see the,
36:09
when we start looking it up.
36:11
- I've been involved with ITW for a while
36:14
as a board member, the author at large,
36:16
which Charlene Harris and I are like,
36:19
we don't really like the at-large thing.
36:21
We're just gonna go for it.
36:23
(laughing)
36:23
This is gonna be a better title than at-large.
36:26
(laughing)
36:28
I don't love getting into what's a mystery,
36:30
what's a thriller, what's a cozy, what's this and that.
36:32
But the truth is, I broke out in thrillers.
36:36
And I remember going to my first voucher con,
36:38
Michoud Writers of America,
36:40
and trying to start talk about what I was doing.
36:42
I had a serial killer book where the husband was a serial killer and everyone just being like, "What?"
36:47
So when they first started the International Thriller Writers, that was an organization where myself and the stories I like to read and I like to write felt like home.
36:56
And I will say, I do think books in general are a community.
37:01
And the International Thriller Writers has been a phenomenal community, whether you're a reader, a fan, a writer.
37:07
But I also argue, because I've done a lot with the debut
37:10
authors, which is where some of my passion is at this stage
37:12
of my career.
37:13
You have to form a community to survive this.
37:17
You've got to get friends.
37:19
And I even talk about class.
37:21
Like, this is the class you grew up with.
37:23
So I've been 35 years in this business.
37:26
And the class I grew up with includes everyone
37:29
from Kristen Hannah and I started out in our empathy
37:31
together to Karen Slaughter and I did.
37:33
And Harlan Coban and Lee Child, we were all with Bantam.
37:36
we did book tours together.
37:38
And it's interesting, 'cause people talk about,
37:40
well, you're a famous author, so you know famous authors.
37:43
It's like, no, we all knew each other
37:45
when we were struggling authors.
37:47
That's, and that's what to me,
37:49
the International Thriller Writers
37:51
and what Thriller Fest is.
37:52
You go there, and it's a great source of workshops
37:57
and signings, you're gonna meet the authors you love,
37:59
and that's all really good.
38:00
But it's also a place where you start forming your community,
38:03
and you don't start by saying, saying,
38:05
I want to meet this you like you find the authors are having the same struggles you are and then hopefully you all get to like
38:11
Grow up together Karen Slaughter and I did three weeks on the road together. I'm like like 20 years ago
38:18
It's like that's not trauma bonding. I don't know what
38:25
That's how you build your community and that's what helps you survive because as authors as writers
38:31
We only get the microcosm of what our publishing experience is right now, but that's not the market
38:39
You need friends having all these other things and you need to have things even when your publisher or your agent comes to you with stuff
38:45
You go out to your other sources and kind of say does this resonate with you?
38:49
Is this consistent with your being heard because we all write in a vacuum, right? I mean I joke. I live in a snow globe
38:56
I'm in the mountains of New Hampshire. It's beautiful. It's scenic
39:00
Hey, you should live on an island like Nick. He doesn't get to see anybody and let's say wash the shore
39:04
So you're a message in the bottle. I'm a snuggle hope
39:07
I mean, it's like if you didn't have ways to check in with a larger community, how would you know?
39:14
It also is interesting like if you look at people who and we see a lot of people
39:19
Who are up and coming authors and the ones that go on to be successful
39:22
usually had a core group of of community that they were able to
39:26
Call on because it does it makes a difference. It's really fun to talk to the debuts because they really have the sense of hierarchy
39:34
Well, if I could become your friend, I'd be a friend. It's like no no no no no
39:38
Look at you in this room right now. You guys are all gonna grow up together
39:43
This is your community. You got to stop with looking for the Kardashians and just look for someone to struggle writing process
39:51
publishing experience speaks to you, this, you guys are going to grow up together and
39:56
you are going to forever have these shared conversations and shared struggles moving
40:01
forward. And it's so great. Writing is great to happen in isolation. I don't know how else we
40:08
would do it. Publishing is a team sport. And that's where you need a community. And that's
40:15
where writers organizations and I mean, I do love Thriller Fest because it brings everyone
40:20
even internationally into New York. I mean, in terms of bang for your buck, you're never
40:25
going to meet so many and have so many experiences all in one room.
40:29
Yeah, it looks brilliant. I'm a member. I haven't been to it yet, but I think Indies
40:33
are allowed in the door, aren't we? We're the Indies that are allowed in. So yeah, we've
40:39
got to make it there sometime. We just came back from SPS London. So there's several things
40:42
we go to which are more indie focused kind of thing. But man, they are so good.
40:49
I did Boushikron last two years.
40:51
I'm skipping this year 'cause it's in Canada,
40:53
that's too far north.
40:54
But next year it'll be in DC, that's a little drivable.
40:58
- It's wherever you find your community.
41:00
I didn't find it with Mr. Writers,
41:02
I found it with the Thriller Writers,
41:04
but I mean, it's all good.
41:06
I do think if you're an author, we are loners at heart.
41:09
And again, the writing is the solitary part
41:12
to survive the business of publishing.
41:15
And it's wherever you find it, embrace it,
41:17
and lean into it.
41:19
Absolutely. So with that, you do you do talks and presentations and what have you. What's your favorite topic to talk about?
41:25
You mentioned you love chatting with the debuts. So what's the topic you most like talking about?
41:31
Well, so the topic I love the most, which I never get to speak on, but I joke that it's, well, I don't joke. I feel passionately.
41:38
It's actually missing. We go to writers conferences. There's here's how to plot. Here's how to do character development.
41:43
and here's how they hit the New York Times
41:44
in five years or less.
41:46
I'm very passionate 35 years later on,
41:49
what keeps us writing?
41:51
What's the muse?
41:52
What's the creative process?
41:53
On the days you don't feel like writing at all.
41:56
In most of us, I was very lucky after 10 years,
42:00
I got to be a full-time author.
42:01
But I had, I mean, for a while as a business consultant,
42:04
I worked 80 hours a week and I wrote from 11 p.m.
42:07
to one in the morning to meet my deadline.
42:10
And then even once I was a full-time thriller writer,
42:12
It was just in time to have a family and I had kids
42:14
and I was still trying to write.
42:16
- I used to bounce ideas off my kids
42:19
and my daughter would always tell me I was stupid
42:20
and it was a bad idea and I'd let whatever.
42:22
I'm not doing it anyway, so.
42:25
- So I'm kind of passionate in our industry
42:27
about how do you keep creative?
42:30
How do you keep the energy going?
42:31
Particularly 'cause I think there's a lot of things
42:33
in everyday life that drain it right out of us too.
42:36
If you're a contracted author, we're a book a year,
42:39
how to balance all of this.
42:41
And it's funny because my biggest technique I used to this day, I got from another author,
42:46
Suze Brockman, who's huge in the romance world.
42:49
And I mean, it's one of those crazy little funny things, but it works well as a scented
42:54
candle, which she goes to write a book, which is actually writing, not doing email, not
42:59
searching the internet, not going down Google rabbit holes, a scented candle that we want
43:04
for a book.
43:05
And at a certain point, smelling that fragrance, click serve.
43:11
pavlovian conditioned response. And I'm like, that's brilliant. And, you know, it's one
43:16
of those practical things you don't think about. But my kid was little, that saved me.
43:20
Because, you know, you went from Care Bears and the journey to lands of jokes a lot to
43:25
how many people can I kill in one scene, which the Care Bears actually did help. I'm not
43:29
going to lie. But enough Care Bears, you want to kill a lot of things.
43:37
I love the fact that you associate scented candles with serial killers.
43:43
I was just thinking, do they make them like a motor oil sense or something like that?
43:48
You need a serial killer now that has to light a candle in order to do their serial killing
43:52
and then it'd be like a weird little quick curfew.
43:55
Yeah, they do a whole author series of candles like the Charles Dickens candles.
43:59
I don't find any of that useful.
44:01
Like, man.
44:04
- Okay, well, what is something,
44:06
as someone who's teaching,
44:07
what is one fundamental thing
44:09
that you think new thrill writers often kind of overlook
44:12
or miss or just completely skip altogether?
44:16
- Oh goodness, there's so many.
44:17
I'm like, one is do find a community,
44:19
it will help keep you sane.
44:21
I lean in a lot to remember one page a day is progress.
44:26
I mean, that old, if you wrote a page a day
44:29
at the end of the year, you'd have a book.
44:31
I think particularly when you're new,
44:33
and if you've just sold a book,
44:35
it almost overwhelmingly becomes disintimidating.
44:39
I'm an author, I need to be generating 10 pages a day.
44:44
Yeah, I need to be like, you know,
44:46
prushing it every day.
44:47
And no, most of us, it's a quiet suffering
44:50
until we get to the end.
44:52
- Terry Pratchett's one always here.
44:53
He's very prolific, but he wrote like 500 words a day,
44:56
and that was it.
44:56
I was like, man, like 500 words feel like it is starting.
44:59
So.
45:00
- Yeah, Carter Wilson is one of my new favorite authors
45:04
and he does some really great books.
45:06
And he's really interesting to talk to.
45:08
He writes for one hour a day every day,
45:10
but never more than an hour.
45:13
And it comes from the fact that for the longest time
45:15
it was his side hustle, right?
45:17
He had a real job and he was riding on the side.
45:20
And he's like, he still feels his best work is one hour a day
45:24
and actually keeping it bound and tight with,
45:27
I only have an hour.
45:29
'cause now he is a full-time author
45:31
'cause he's been successful,
45:32
but he's like, still the fact that I only have an hour
45:34
makes it great.
45:36
When he starts opening it up to have all day to do this,
45:38
he's like, I get nothing done.
45:40
- That is true, yeah.
45:42
I can easily spread out and procrastinate.
45:44
- That's an interesting system
45:46
'cause you know the rest of the time,
45:47
it's not that he's not thinking about it
45:50
until that hour starts.
45:51
He's thinking about it all the time,
45:53
so he knows he only has that hour window.
45:56
I think that that might be a piece of brilliance right there.
45:58
And he loves to leave it hot, so to speak.
46:01
Like he might be on a roll,
46:03
but now the next day he can't wait to get back to it.
46:05
Like this is why I also love the community of authors again
46:09
and talking to other people because it's like,
46:11
I mean, there are days I get overwhelmed.
46:12
Like, oh my God, this is, I have to,
46:14
I mean, there's 29 things going on,
46:16
but I gotta find a way to do just this.
46:17
And I just, but it's like, if you like,
46:20
okay, I'm just spending one hour writing the best I can,
46:23
it just makes it seem manageable.
46:25
And the next thing you know, you have a book.
46:27
- Yeah, and you're gonna get faster and faster
46:29
with that hour anyway, 'cause you're gonna get better.
46:31
Like you said, we're gonna be thinking about it.
46:33
I can see that being, I'm looking forward to it.
46:34
I'm excited about, I finally get to sit down.
46:37
It's like sitting down at the end of the day
46:38
and you crack open a beer is the same thing for me.
46:40
I get to sit down and crack open a laptop, right.
46:43
- Part of his approach too is for today's modern authors,
46:46
so to speak, and what our community is now is,
46:48
you have social media, you have all this other stuff to do.
46:51
Again, I sold pre-internet, I'll be honest,
46:53
I miss those days.
46:55
I remember when having a website felt like
46:57
you could ask an author to do.
46:59
Now we're on social media hell.
47:00
It's like, oh my God, I mean, we do everything but right.
47:04
But so if you think about it,
47:05
it's like I'm gonna spend one hour each day
47:07
and then you got the rest of you, this other stuff.
47:09
And in the meantime, you're kind of jonesing
47:12
in the back of your mind because you,
47:14
wait, I desperately wanna get back to that.
47:17
Like that's a good relationship to have with your craft.
47:20
- I think it's the trigger.
47:22
If anyone out there that's kind of in that mode
47:25
where you're dreading to sit down
47:27
right for whatever reason that might be. Try this method because that is definitely a way of
47:32
building yourself up to, "I can't wait, sit down and get these words on page." Right? So,
47:37
I know you've talked about this as a business, that it's important to look at it as a business,
47:42
if you want it to be your career. And we talk about this all the time. We talk to a lot of
47:47
newer authors and stuff who, it's one of the things we say right out of the gate,
47:51
start thinking about it like a business. Has that shifted for you over time? You talked about
47:57
social media, you didn't have that stuff at the beginning. Now the pressures of having
48:00
social media presence are huge on an author. So what has changed from your seat?
48:06
Oh my goodness. It is completely and totally changed the industry I've experienced in 35
48:12
years. I mean, there's just no way it could have. And part of it is I will say, I'm old
48:16
school. This is my weakness when I deal with the debuts. Like my, not just how I got sold
48:22
my very first book, which was kind of silly, but how it became an overnight success 10
48:28
years later, which is I got an agent, she said write a thriller, I wrote a thriller,
48:32
she sent it.
48:33
And back in those days, New York was five white guys who basically told the rest of
48:39
the world what to read.
48:40
And I got lucky.
48:42
One of them said, "This book will be an overnight success."
48:46
And the music industry had the same thing.
48:49
for a while, there was what they called them the kingmakers.
48:51
If they said it, it was so.
48:54
I was lucky.
48:55
My overnight success was Erwin Applebaum,
48:59
who's huge back in the day, said,
49:01
this will be the next,
49:02
Bantam's next New York Times bestseller.
49:04
And because he said it, it was so.
49:07
We don't have that anymore.
49:09
Now we're decentralized.
49:11
Now success is coming from the bottom.
49:14
But by bottom, that means us the authors.
49:16
It means us the writers.
49:18
we're doing the hustle.
49:19
I mean, I joke, writing has never so represented
49:23
the Avon or Amway industry then.
49:26
(laughing)
49:29
- Wow, that is very true.
49:32
- And for a lot of this, that's not the sweet spot.
49:34
Like I really am not into marketing and promotions,
49:37
but if this is what you're passionate about
49:39
and this is what you want,
49:41
you kind of have to figure out a way to marry these things.
49:44
And some of it is maybe your first investment as a writer,
49:47
Like I have two full time people for social media
49:50
that work for me.
49:51
It's like, maybe just go ahead and suck that up.
49:53
Or maybe you're like, I'm good at this and I can do this.
49:56
I mean, but it's recognizing this is the model.
49:59
And then how do I make this work for me?
50:03
I think a lot of people like, that's the model.
50:05
I don't do that so I will never be successful.
50:08
And it's like, nope, it's like any business industry.
50:12
These are the variables.
50:14
Now think about how you can manage this
50:16
'cause there's always a solution, all businesses,
50:19
all entrepreneurs, the whole basis of being an entrepreneur
50:24
and any industry is figuring out balance for you
50:27
or the right allocation of resources
50:30
to manage the variables at play.
50:35
- Brilliant, brilliant, yeah.
50:36
Adapt, migrate or die, right?
50:37
I mean, as things move, you better move with them
50:40
and be prepared to do that.
50:41
- And things you don't like,
50:43
find a high school student who does,
50:44
'cause let me tell you, you can give it,
50:45
like a nine year old right now, your Instagram account,
50:48
and they will do way better than you are.
50:51
So... (laughs)
50:52
- Yeah, you're bound to have a family member, yeah.
50:55
- Child labor is probably not the best way to go,
50:57
but hey, it's fine. (laughs)
50:59
- So I've had a ton of friends who've gone
51:00
into self publishing and it's high school.
51:02
They've gone to their local high school
51:04
and the graphic arts program and said,
51:06
"Hey, do you have a like a 17 year old
51:08
that's really good at this stuff?
51:09
You wanna design my book cover?
51:10
Do you wanna do this?
51:11
Do you wanna do that?"
51:12
And so for peanuts,
51:14
I mean, they're not, you know, again, barriers entry,
51:16
they're not trying to go to huge people
51:19
and pay tons of money to launch a self publishing career.
51:22
They're going to the, you know,
51:23
the 17 year old down the street
51:25
launching their publishing and it's worked.
51:27
So.
51:29
- They're doing great.
51:30
Yeah, 'cause it's something you can do.
51:32
And that's one thing about the business
51:33
is the barrier for entry is pretty low.
51:36
So it doesn't, you know, it doesn't take a lot
51:38
if you can get in the door.
51:40
So.
51:40
- And locally you probably do have some resources.
51:43
I mean, between high schools, trade schools, whatnot,
51:46
you probably can find some kid that'll be like,
51:48
"Oh, this is fun." (laughs)
51:51
- So we've kept you for a long time.
51:53
This has been absolutely brilliant.
51:54
We have a couple more things we're gonna throw
51:56
a couple more questions your way.
51:58
And the first one we ask every author is,
52:00
what do you consider is your author's superpower?
52:03
- Characterization, weirdly enough.
52:05
I mean, I sound like I'm slightly insane.
52:08
Everyone's like, "Where do you get your characters?
52:09
How do you develop your characters?"
52:11
I'm like, I hike mountains and they just come to me.
52:14
I've always known Frankie Elkin.
52:16
And Kisser Goodbye, the main character,
52:20
I mean, her struggles in Afghanistan, Sabra,
52:24
she's just been a voice in my head.
52:26
The ability to walk deeply in other people's shoes.
52:30
But I think that's also what brought me
52:31
to both reading and writing.
52:33
I think the best books you walk in someone else's shoes.
52:37
And I mean, I happen to be a thriller writer,
52:40
But it's that element that's the most passionate for me.
52:44
I think it's kind of my organic approach,
52:48
but I just want to walk on other people's shoes.
52:50
My own life is really dull.
52:52
I'm not gonna lie.
52:53
(laughing)
52:55
- That's our friend Dan Mason that says,
52:57
"We get to spend all day playing
52:59
with our imaginary friends."
53:00
It's pretty special to do what we do.
53:03
- It's always, it's a pretty good plan.
53:05
- We've got one more to throw at you.
53:06
Doug has our Wheel of Questions.
53:08
So we're gonna, a random question.
53:13
And it's completely random. We just change them out. You can hear the little clicking.
53:20
I know it goes forever. I spent it too hard. Okay. If you could co-write a story with any
53:27
other author, we'll say living or dead. Who would it be? I mean, you could leave with the obvious
53:32
choice. So we won't put you on the spot with that. But somebody else.
53:36
- Write a book.
53:37
Okay, I have to admit, I love Karen Slaughter.
53:40
And it's just not, but like Will Trent,
53:42
and some of like the character she's done,
53:45
now she has a new series, we're all guilty here
53:47
and the sequel's coming out and I think they're fabulous.
53:49
But I'm not gonna lie, I'm mad, mad pressure on Will Trent.
53:53
And if we could co-write a book where like Will Trent
53:55
and Dee Dee Warren, my detective,
53:57
or Will Trent and Frankie Elkin, I don't even care.
53:59
But if we could bring our, I mean like--
54:01
- Frankie Elkin would send Trent into a spin.
54:04
Wouldn't it, wouldn't that just be mad fun?
54:08
I mean,
54:10
- All right, I'm sure Karen's listening,
54:12
so we need to get that going.
54:13
So,
54:14
(laughs)
54:14
- International Thrill Riders did a fun anthology years ago
54:18
where, what did we call it?
54:20
'Cause I even participated in a partners in,
54:23
but you matched up characters.
54:25
I worked with MJ Rose and her character
54:28
and my character were both in a book together.
54:30
But man, Will Trent and Frankie Elkin,
54:32
you are not wrong.
54:33
That would be hysterically funny and quite fascinating.
54:37
- I feel like a good holiday novella
54:39
you guys should knock out together
54:40
and just go ahead and make another big project, yeah.
54:43
- All right, when that happens,
54:45
'cause it's gotta happen,
54:46
is we want a little byline in the acknowledgments in the back.
54:49
(Nikki laughs)
54:50
These two numb nuts force me into answering a question
54:53
which started this whole thing.
54:55
- Well, just bring Lisa and Karen back on.
54:57
It'll be a fun little, hey, we just talked about it.
54:59
So yeah.
55:00
(Nikki laughs)
55:00
Nick, what about you?
55:01
Do you have one, other than me?
55:02
Well, Lisa Gardner, of course.
55:04
I mean, I want to imagine Mike, my Nora, Nora Summer character and Frankie Elkin.
55:10
Oh, I was thinking Nora, Nora's right up.
55:13
Absolutely.
55:13
There we go.
55:14
They'd be a match.
55:15
Yeah.
55:15
So, yeah.
55:16
So Nick and I already write together.
55:18
We have a series that we do together, which we're really, which we're really behind
55:21
on doing the latest.
55:24
Just doing this help inspiring you to write.
55:27
Oh, yes.
55:27
Oh, for sure.
55:28
Absolutely.
55:28
No, this is just we really, we started this just so we could hang out and talk.
55:31
and because we wanted our community and it kind of grew into adding more people and becoming,
55:36
it's just made us really big in the end. We get to meet amazing people like you and talk about
55:41
books for an hour, you know? I mean, it's, we get off of this, our interviews and we're normally
55:47
inspired, you know? It's one of the most fascinating things when I do book signings and stuff is that
55:52
the general public, I guess, have the sense that authors were competitive and we'd like stab each
55:57
other on the back and it's like, oh, God, no.
56:01
If you can meet someone else that has voices in their head and voices in their head telling
56:06
them to kill and still not been institutionalized, you're really genuinely excited.
56:12
It's like, oh, I love you.
56:17
Yeah, and the other side is everybody is going to finish a book and as soon as they finish
56:22
it, they want the next book.
56:23
So there's no competition, really, not really.
56:27
The high tide floats all boats.
56:29
- Absolutely, yeah.
56:30
And they can read a lot more than we can write ourselves,
56:32
right?
56:33
- Our real competition is Netflix.
56:35
But it's like, the rest of my family, interestingly enough,
56:38
at dinner does not want to hear about head hopping, POV,
56:41
you know, dark story arcs, the amateur sleuths.
56:46
I mean, I don't know why.
56:47
I think they're missing out.
56:48
But if like, we didn't have each other, what would we do?
56:51
- Exactly.
56:52
Speak the same language.
56:53
All right, thank you so much for joining us.
56:55
This has absolutely been a treat for us
56:58
and our listeners are gonna love it.
57:00
And best of luck with the release.
57:01
It's gonna be, it's gonna go huge.
57:03
- This has been such a pleasure.
57:05
Thank you for having me on.
57:06
I hope everyone enjoys "You'll Be Sorry"
57:08
and everyone's books.
57:09
Yay!
57:10
(upbeat music)
57:16
- How cool was that?
57:18
- Oh, no, I bet you're super excited after all that.
57:21
You're gonna be all up and on your high.
57:23
I'm even bigger fan girl now. Yeah. I know she was wonderful. How much
57:28
lovely lady. Oh my God. It was always great. We have a fun, a fun interview like that. It's
57:33
so we can just talk forever. So she was she was really cool and so smart about it. I mean,
57:39
just loads of cool little nuggets of info for everyone on the writing craft, the business,
57:46
all that good stuff. So wonderful, wonderful. Cool. Big thank you to our Patreon subscribers.
57:50
if you're not on the Patreon thing, check it out. See if you like it.
57:55
Yeah, we had a really good question with Lisa there.
57:58
Oh, yeah. Lisa hung around and we had a great chat with her that'll go in the bonus content,
58:03
just to tease you a little bit about that. Also, huge thanks to Valom for their support
58:07
of the show. We love the product and love our partnership with Valom. So thank you very much
58:14
to those guys. You'll find links to all that stuff, links to Lisa's books. We talked about
58:17
out through the Festers links in there in the show notes. All the good stuff. We'll see you next week.
58:24
Until then, be cool to each other.
58:26
- And fair wins in following a thief.
58:28
[MUSIC]
58:29
You've been listening to the Two Authors podcast with Nicholas Harvey and Douglas Pratt.
58:35
Subscribe on your favorite platform for new shows coming every week.
58:40
[MUSIC]
59:11
[BLANK_AUDIO]