Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Are Christians Warmongers? When War Is Just. Seeking Peace & Not Conquest – Highlight Episode 345

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Are Christians Warmongers? When War Is Just. Seeking Peace & Not Conquest – Highlight Episode 345 · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Speaker 1: All right friends.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Today we're talking about is it wrong for Christians to support war.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad that we're addressing subjects like this.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Recently we talked about the death penalty, and I think that's good.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: We need to discuss things like that, and I think one of the things that people appreciated was that in that episode in particular and we do this all the time we share the fact that we may have different views on things, but that's the beauty of the body of Christ.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: You know that when it comes to secondary issues, there can be charity in that, there can be latitude where we say, look, this is not an essential issue.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: We may hold our views tenaciously and feel strongly about them, but there has to be a grace that's involved to say, look, these are not essentials.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: And so, while we can even debate them and, you know, in a spirited way, at the end of the day we need to have that gracious heart and attitude.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: And we've talked before about pacifism on the, or self-defense rather, but we want to, you know, talk and we can talk about things related to it, but we want to talk about war because it's a big thing and it's an important topic to tackle.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: It's important to just recognize.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: In the first 300 years there is this instinct against bloodshed, say the church was totally against war.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: Because again you also have examples of people in the early church praying for positive outcomes and participating in non-combatant ways.
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: Something different happens post-Nicene shift, remember.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: Christianity becomes a state religion in 380 through the edict of Thessalonica.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: And now the church is grappling with the ability to have power and what it looks like to preserve Christian virtue and enter Augustine's theory of just war.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Henry Chadwick summarizes Augustine's just war theory and a lot of people will say Augustine's laid out these three or four or five criteria.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: It actually wasn't Augustine, it was Henry Chadwick that summarizes Augustine.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: He says basically, just war means self-defense or recovery of stolen property.
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: Its aim is always peace, not conquest or revenge.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: It's always proportional in force, it has a respect for humanity and avoids humiliation.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: And we should always preserve the idea of prisoners of war.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: In other words, we need to protect the rights even when they are our enemies.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: So to summarize, the idea of gust war permits war but never glorifies it.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: It recognizes it as always being tragic and it limits its reason to go to war.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: I love that Oscar.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: Very good.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I look at some of the things in the Old Testament, some of the wars, and I can't justify them.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: They're pretty bloodthirsty, you know, hacking someone to death in war with a sword.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: If I was there I'd probably just go for a long walk or something.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Elijah hacking Agag.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: That's what I was thinking of and that's because that's probably what he said when it happened, agag.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Anyway, atheists will often point to God as being a warmonger in the Old Testament and say God told Joshua to kill all the Canaanites.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: And there's a good comeback to atheists when they say that.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: You just say to them did this actually happen?
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: And they say yes, so you're saying the Bible's right.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: And they say no, it didn't happen.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: So what are you worried about then?
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Just like getting upset because Cinderella's coach turned into a pumpkin at midnight.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: If it didn't happen, don't get.
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: Francis Schaeffer.
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: He said to fail to stand against tyranny is to fail to love your neighbor.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: Spurgeon, a time will come when peace means cowardice and war means righteousness.
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: I'm not needing to make these decisions, though.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: Right, so, because I'm not able to make these decisions, all I know is these little 30-second snippet, instagram newsreels, which is, by and large, where people get their news right.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: I was surprised to see Tucker interview Ted Cruz concerning this.
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you saw that, but there was fireworks amongst the two and I thought I thought you were on the same side.
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: Am I that far removed now to what is happening?
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: So, bottom line for me, I think that there are times when war is justifiable.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: Right, and you had asked me the question.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: If somebody breaks into my house, let me quote a verse, exodus 22,.
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no blood guilt for him.
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: Ray saying if he had a real gun, he would start at the foot and work his way up.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Did you know that?
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: He has to aim up at the foot.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: Sometimes fighting for peace means fighting period.
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: That's what Mel Gibson said, right?
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: Listen, we just got to be careful in the midst of this.
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: This is why it is so important to pray for our governmental leaders that God puts people in place, and for you not to vote, whoever you are, is a terrible act let me take it a step further of treason towards your government.
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: Right that we have the ability to put people in place.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: That is how God works supernaturally, in a very natural way, 10,000 lives that were given in World War II.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: and at the bottom it says here we mark the price of freedom.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes it's easy for us to walk around and say, oh you know, forget war, this and that, like those that are like hardcore pacifists and they're living in the benefits of those that went to war to defend us.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: So what do you think of something like World War II?
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Should the United States have gotten involved?
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: I think the United States should have gotten involved sooner than what they did.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: They were isolationists, but they were provoked to be isolationists by people who had been placed by the enemy within America.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Fifth columnists, I think they were called, where they would cause strikes and all sorts of things to try and bring the nation down or create confusion.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just can't help but think 50 million people like us four guys died in that war.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Because some little twit that looked like Charlie Chaplin decided he wanted to rule the world.
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: Just because of that, it's just absolutely crazy.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: This whole world's a tinderbox.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: I am a fan of Fox, but I deliberately go across to CNN regularly so I get a balance, because I know Fox know their customs customers yeah, they know their base, and their whole thing is pump Trump, and we'll get a good bottom line.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: And CNN say dump Trump, we'll get a good bottom line.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: And so that's why mark is so right about just being careful what you listen to, because you can Be shaped by what you listen to.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: I found this online.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: I think it was a really good summation.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: It's when war may be justified, when war is unjustified.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: So when war may be justified, defensive war, protecting citizens from aggression, justice for the oppressed.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: When diplomacy fails, resisting evil, preventing genocide or tyranny and upholding order, maintaining a lawful society.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: And then, when war is unjustified, greed, conquest, revenge, religious coercion, a disregard for civilians or unjust, targeting nationalism elevated above God's word.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: That's huge and disobedience to God's moral law in battle.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: In terms of the just war doctrine by Augustine and then Aquinas, augustine so just cause, which is to stop real evil, genocide, invasion.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Proper authority declared by a legitimate government, right intention, goal must be peace, not conquest.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Last resort.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: All options must be exhausted.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: I think that's an important one.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Has diplomacy been given a shot?
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: Proportionality, force must be measured, not excessive.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: And then discrimination civilians and non-combatants must be protected.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: So we need to remember we have the power that raised Jesus from the dead dwelling in us and man.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: We need to make peace with our brethren.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: We need to go the extra mile.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: We need to be at peace with all men.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: As far as it depends on us.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: We need to remember that.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: We need to keep that in mind and, I hope, in light of what we talked about in terms of our outlook and perspective on war, that we check our hearts.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: Do we glory in it?
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Do we find glee and like, oh yeah, it's great, versus thinking about what that means Human lives being destroyed, oftentimes for foolish reasons.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: In Psalms God condemns those who delight in war.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in to this week's highlights from the Living Waters podcast.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Friends, we value your time, so we've created a bite-sized version of our podcast for listeners who want to get equipped.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Without the jokes and fellowship.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Be sure to check out the full episode every Thursday where we dive deeper into the topic.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Until then, you can watch the full podcast episode available now on livingwaterstv.