Latest / California Frontier / 059: Strangers in a New Land: Two Foreigners Who Shaped Early California

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059: Strangers in a New Land: Two Foreigners Who Shaped Early California · California Frontier

• 0:00
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: A lot of what I'm going to talk about today is taken from a presentation I did at the Western History Association conference in Kansas City at the end of October.
• 0:12
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: I hope you enjoy it and please reach out to me if you have any questions.
• 0:18
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: I'm happy to expand on some of the things that get brought up in this brief presentation.
• 0:34
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: So in the late 1820s and 30s, as Mexico emerged from its struggle for independence, the lessening of official trade restrictions opened the doors to foreign sailors, merchants, and adventurers who soon found themselves dealing with the web of family formed the backbone of Spanish American society.
• 0:57
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: Before that, say before 1820, Spain had a very restrictive regimen in terms of who could come into its territories, who could trade.
• 1:12
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: But with independence, Mexico saw itself needing and desiring to bring in not only trade, but immigrants into its territories, as we saw in the case of Texas or other places.
• 1:28
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: Now, as I mentioned, people who came at that time, and it was almost entirely men, had to deal with different networks, which often blurred the lines between family and commerce, family and business.
• 1:46
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: And these networks, these personal social networks were very common and particularly tight knit in California, in Mexican California, where the small population of Spanish descendants formed a real intricate tapestry of relationships.
• 2:05
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: One man who came to California from Jalisco from Mexico in 1834, Carlos N.
• 2:13
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: Híjar, who I, whose testimony I read on the podcast earlier, remarked the following, quote, Everyone called each other cousin, even though no bond of relationship united them.
• 2:29
  Marsh and Forbes Intro: So, it was into this world of intertwined families that two English speaking newcomers, James Alexander Forbes and John Marsh, would make their mark.
• 2:42
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: They're stories.
• 2:44
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: While they're parallel in many ways, diverge and some crucial aspects.
• 2:49
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And they give us a glimpse into the different strategies that.
• 2:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Foreigners, especially English speakers.
• 2:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Could and did adopt and Mexican California.
• 2:59
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And the consequences of these choices in that turbulent years that follow the U S Mexico war.
• 3:06
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And California's annexation.
• 3:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now Forbes and marsh both arrived in California in the 1830s.
• 3:15
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: They are both well-educated and ambitious.
• 3:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: They shared a common tongue, as I mentioned English, but they were also fluent in Spanish, which wasn't always a very common.
• 3:28
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And that was a skill.
• 3:30
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: That proved invaluable in their adopted home.
• 3:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Both men came from elite backgrounds.
• 3:36
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And we're driven to achieve positions of status in their new environment.
• 3:41
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But despite these similarities, Forbes and marsh chose different approaches to integrating or not integrating.
• 3:51
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Into Kelly Ford and you know, society.
• 3:55
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: One.
• 3:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: James Alexander Forbes.
• 3:59
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Opted to become an insider.
• 4:01
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: While the other.
• 4:02
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, John Marsh.
• 4:04
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Remained decidedly on the outside.
• 4:07
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So let's start with James Alexander Forbes.
• 4:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now.
• 4:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He was born in Scotland.
• 4:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In 1805.
• 4:16
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And.
• 4:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Before coming out to California.
• 4:20
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In 1831, he had lived in Spain.
• 4:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: With relatives.
• 4:26
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And so he had a tie to the Spanish speaking world and Latin America.
• 4:30
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So it seems that he knew Spanish already.
• 4:33
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, years before coming.
• 4:36
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he had been acculturated to Latin America.
• 4:39
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now when he arrived in California.
• 4:42
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He quickly immersed himself in local life.
• 4:45
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he took a job working for the Castro family.
• 4:50
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: On Rancho San Pablo, which is in present day Contra Costa county.
• 4:54
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, in 1832.
• 4:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He began working as a clerk.
• 4:58
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: For pod today.
• 5:00
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Jose.
• 5:01
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: There at mission Santa Clara.
• 5:03
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And in working for Biatta, he rose to the position of my or Domo, which was basically.
• 5:11
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The foreman who oversaw the mission itself.
• 5:15
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now he traveled on behalf of the mission.
• 5:18
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And on mission business.
• 5:20
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And that caused him to make the acquaintance of many of the key members of California society at the time.
• 5:28
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And this role proved crucial in Forbes is integration into California culture.
• 5:33
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He reflected on this years later.
• 5:36
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: At one of the hearings.
• 5:39
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, the, the United States land commission.
• 5:42
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he said, quote, My work is such as to cause me to be intimately acquainted with the native California population.
• 5:52
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And to ascertain their reputation.
• 5:55
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So he had insights into people's reputations.
• 6:00
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And this was very important.
• 6:03
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now Forbes, willingness to embrace California culture extended beyond his professional life.
• 6:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In 1833.
• 6:11
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He received Mexican citizenship.
• 6:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And then the next year in 1834.
• 6:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He married Ana Maria Galindo.
• 6:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Who was a California.
• 6:21
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And Mexican California woman from a prominent local family.
• 6:25
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Forbes wasn't unusual in marrying into an influential Hispanic family.
• 6:31
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As this was a common strategy among men like him who came to California from the Pacific.
• 6:37
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Often on trading vessels.
• 6:40
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: This marriage, along with Forbes active participation in various aspects of California life.
• 6:46
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Including serving as a godfather at numerous baptisms.
• 6:51
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Helped his position as an insider in California society.
• 6:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And notice.
• 6:57
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: I'm making a distinction here between California and Kelly Forno society.
• 7:01
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So.
• 7:02
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: California society means really those family networks of Spanish speaking Californians.
• 7:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: His connections or reputation, both inside and outside California.
• 7:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Led to his appointment as the British government's official representative in Mexican, California.
• 7:21
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he held this position.
• 7:23
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: From 1842 to 1858 years.
• 7:27
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now switching gears.
• 7:28
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: John Marsh has journey to California on the other hand was more Securitas.
• 7:33
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He was born in Danvers, Massachusetts in 1799 and attended Harvard college.
• 7:40
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: From 18, 19 to 1823.
• 7:43
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And here in the bachelor's degree there.
• 7:46
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: No, he studied medicine.
• 7:48
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He never received a formal.
• 7:51
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, medical degree or certificate.
• 7:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He had a restless personality and eventually headed west.
• 7:57
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Where he worked as an Indian agent for the Sue agency at Fort Snelling in what is today, Minnesota.
• 8:04
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: There.
• 8:05
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He, um, he had a child with a woman who was a part SU native.
• 8:13
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he eventually left both his wife and son behind.
• 8:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And came to California in 1836, following the Santa Fe trail.
• 8:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: To the Pueblo of Los Angeles.
• 8:26
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now in Los Angeles, Maurice began practicing medicine, which was what he knew how to do.
• 8:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he quickly accumulated enough wealth to purchase.
• 8:36
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Thanks to his medical practice, 17,000 acre Rancho, Los mega knows it.
• 8:42
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: What is now a Contra Costa county?
• 8:45
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, He purchased the ranch.
• 8:48
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He wasn't, he didn't receive a land grant, so important distinction.
• 8:52
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now he left Los Angeles.
• 8:54
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Soon after and took on a new role as both a rancher.
• 8:58
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And a doctor.
• 8:59
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Soon.
• 9:01
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Marsh began to travel extensively throughout Northern California from Sonoma.
• 9:06
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: To Monterrey more or less.
• 9:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he would treat patients for a wide variety of ailments.
• 9:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he earned the respect of influential citizens.
• 9:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Such as Marianna Waterloo.
• 9:21
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Who was a key power broker in Northern, out to California.
• 9:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, cash was scarce.
• 9:26
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And Mexican California.
• 9:29
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So marsh devised a payment system.
• 9:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Whereby he charged in cattle.
• 9:34
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So a typical visit might cost one head of cattle.
• 9:38
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: While, if he had to travel to a more distant location.
• 9:42
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He might charge up to, he might charge.
• 9:45
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Up to two or three head of cattle for his services.
• 9:49
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The California's.
• 9:51
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: While.
• 9:52
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: They didn't like this very much.
• 9:54
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And they considered these fees to be exorbitant.
• 9:57
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: We're sort of over a barrel and they valued his services enough to pay.
• 10:02
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: This allowed marsh.
• 10:04
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: To a mass, a considerable herd of cattle and establish himself.
• 10:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As an important and influential Ranchito rancher in the region.
• 10:15
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Unlike Forbes.
• 10:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But however marsh had a posture of aloofness from California society.
• 10:23
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And that extended to his stance on marriage.
• 10:26
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: According to his biographer.
• 10:28
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Marsha said that he would never marry a and here, um, he used her.
• 10:33
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: A racial slur, I'm going to leave it out.
• 10:35
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, but he said he wouldn't marry one of them and preferred to marry his own kind.
• 10:42
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And that's a sentiment that underscored his persistent stance.
• 10:48
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Vis-a-vis integration into California society.
• 10:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Marsh remained a bachelor for many years.
• 10:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Until he married a woman named Abigail tuck of Chelmsford, Massachusetts in 1851.
• 11:03
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And by that time, Marsh himself was about 52 years old.
• 11:08
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now.
• 11:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Abigail or she, as she was known, Abby.
• 11:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, I had a daughter with John Marsh.
• 11:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And sadly Abby died in 1855.
• 11:22
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, due to illness.
• 11:23
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Leaving a marsh to care for his young daughter, Alice.
• 11:28
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now the different strategies employed by marsh and Forbes toward the local social fabric profoundly affected their roles within the community.
• 11:38
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: James Alexander Forbes with his deep connections and cultural adaptability.
• 11:43
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Became.
• 11:45
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, sort of facilitator and indispensable one.
• 11:48
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In many transactions.
• 11:49
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, including land grants from the Mexican government.
• 11:54
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: His bilingual skills.
• 11:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Helped him be a valuable witness and legal cases after the U S N X, California.
• 12:04
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And, you know, that was a time.
• 12:05
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: When the Kelly Ford and you knows.
• 12:07
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Found themselves struggling to prove that they own the land.
• 12:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The day been granted.
• 12:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Right.
• 12:15
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And Forbes who was both.
• 12:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Fluent in Spanish, but also knew the community really well.
• 12:23
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Was very much relied upon.
• 12:26
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, and this role, because of course he was also a native English speaker came from.
• 12:31
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, came from the UK.
• 12:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And so he, he could navigate the two worlds, even though he wasn't American.
• 12:40
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Marshall also became indispensable in his own way to the community.
• 12:44
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Through his medical practice.
• 12:47
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But he maintained a more transactional relationship with his neighbors.
• 12:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: His focus was primarily on building a network of fellow Americans in Mexican, California.
• 13:00
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he pursued that goal pretty vigorously.
• 13:04
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As early as 1840.
• 13:06
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He began writing letters to contacts back east.
• 13:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he encouraged Americans to immigrate to California.
• 13:13
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He talked about the weather.
• 13:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He talked about the abundance of native American labor.
• 13:18
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He really.
• 13:20
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, try to bring.
• 13:23
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Americans.
• 13:25
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Who were interested in setting out from the east to populate California.
• 13:31
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: His letters were published in mid Western newspapers.
• 13:34
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Particularly in Missouri.
• 13:36
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And they played a real significant role in attracting settlers to the region.
• 13:41
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So much so that Marcia's ranch became the end point of what came to be called the California trail.
• 13:50
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But his outsider status and his reputation.
• 13:54
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Also among new American arrivals for in hospitality.
• 13:58
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Often lead to resentment though.
• 14:01
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: John Bidwell who came to California in 1841.
• 14:05
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: With the first big Overland immigrant party.
• 14:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And who arrived partially.
• 14:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Thanks to Marcia's letters and even stayed at Marsha's ranch on arrival.
• 14:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Recounted an incident that illustrated marsh has precarious social standing among the local community.
• 14:25
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: According to Bidwell when Maurice brought some of his hides to a nearby.
• 14:28
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Pueblo to be sold.
• 14:30
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He was so unwelcome among the other ranchers.
• 14:34
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Did he was forced to sleep under his own cart.
• 14:37
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now as Mexico's grip on Alta, California began to weaken.
• 14:41
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And I say Alta California here, because of course.
• 14:45
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, Calif the peninsula Baja, California was also part of the Californias.
• 14:51
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But for the purposes of this.
• 14:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Podcast.
• 14:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: We speak about California.
• 14:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: We're mainly talking about what is today, the state of California.
• 15:00
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So.
• 15:01
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As Mexico's grip on California began to weaken Alta California.
• 15:06
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Both Forbes and marsh recognized.
• 15:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: That the territory had an uncertain future.
• 15:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And they did their best to try and see if they could influence its destiny.
• 15:18
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Their visions for that destiny.
• 15:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: However, we're pretty different.
• 15:22
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Forbes.
• 15:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Who was loyal to his adopted home and his Scottish roots.
• 15:28
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Hope to see California thrive, but under British influence.
• 15:35
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As British vice console, he wrote to his superiors in September of 1844.
• 15:41
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The following.
• 15:42
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Quote.
• 15:43
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: I feel myself in duty bound to use all my influence to present, to prevent this fine country from falling into the hands.
• 15:52
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Of any other foreign power than that of England.
• 15:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Unquote.
• 15:58
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Forbes believe that only through significant reforms.
• 16:02
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Including the introduction of moral industrious settlers.
• 16:07
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And good soldiers commanded by good officers from Mexico.
• 16:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And quote.
• 16:13
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Could the territory be saved from what he termed.
• 16:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The inundation of the scum of the population of the us.
• 16:21
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Unquote.
• 16:23
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So Forbes.
• 16:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, held out hope that Mexico could.
• 16:27
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Reform the territory.
• 16:29
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: If it sent the right people.
• 16:31
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Right.
• 16:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he really had an idea of.
• 16:35
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, U S settlers.
• 16:39
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As.
• 16:40
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Being, um, Pretty undesirable.
• 16:44
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The scum of the population of the us has pretty bad.
• 16:47
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now marsh on the other hand.
• 16:49
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Envisioned California following.
• 16:51
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The path that was laid out by Texas.
• 16:55
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: His plan was pretty ambitious and it conceived of uniting.
• 16:59
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: California and Oregon together.
• 17:02
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Into a single independent nation.
• 17:05
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: With its capital on the San Francisco bay.
• 17:08
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: With this in mind.
• 17:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: On March 27th, 1845.
• 17:13
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Marsh issued a call to all Americans living in Northern Alta California to come meet up in the Pueblo of San Jose on July 4th.
• 17:23
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Us independence day.
• 17:25
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: To discuss his proposal.
• 17:27
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now not much really came of this.
• 17:30
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But his idea and his efforts caught the attention.
• 17:34
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Of the U.S Consul In Northern Alta Kala and Alta California, Thomas Larkin.
• 17:41
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Who was in San Francisco.
• 17:43
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And who later contacted marsh to enlist his aid.
• 17:47
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In trying to obtain California for the U.S for the United States.
• 17:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As tensions between the United States and Mexico escalated in the subsequent months, marsh and Forbes found themselves on different sides of history.
• 18:04
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Marsh was taken aback by the disorder and violence of the bear flag revolt.
• 18:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And captain John C Fremont role in supporting it.
• 18:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And you can go back and listen to, or watch my.
• 18:18
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Podcast on the bear flag, revolt and Fremont and who he was and how he was involved.
• 18:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So marsh.
• 18:26
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Didn't like the way that played out.
• 18:28
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But.
• 18:29
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He ultimately welcomed to us annexation.
• 18:34
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: His vision of California was that it become a ultimately part of the United States.
• 18:39
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And it was realized though, not in the manner he had planned.
• 18:44
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: For his part, Forbes made a last ditch effort to secure British protection for California.
• 18:51
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he used his influence with Mexican California, governor peel, Pico.
• 18:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: To persuade him to make a formal request for that protection.
• 19:00
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But by the time Pico acted.
• 19:02
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And us forces had already taken control.
• 19:06
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Of Northern Alta, California.
• 19:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So, what is today?
• 19:11
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: You know, from Sonoma down.
• 19:13
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Two.
• 19:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Monterrey.
• 19:16
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And the British government.
• 19:18
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Had instructed its ships to stay out of it.
• 19:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: To his chagrin Forbes was ordered to remain neutral as a representative of great Britain.
• 19:31
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And he was a diplomat.
• 19:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So he maintained good relationships with both the California's and the new American occupation force.
• 19:39
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In the words of Russell Posner, who wrote an article about Forbes and his attempts to get a British protectorate going.
• 19:46
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: For Alta California.
• 19:49
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He said Forbes efforts were.
• 19:52
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And utter failure.
• 19:55
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: According to it, to Posner.
• 19:58
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: They probably would have been doomed, even if he had encouragement from his home government.
• 20:04
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As it was Forbes had the unenviable role of being a helpless spectator.
• 20:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: To the successful American takeover, the province.
• 20:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Where he failed.
• 20:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: People like Larkin.
• 20:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Uh, Commodore Sloat, Naval commanders, slope, Naval commander Stockton, and captain Fremont.
• 20:26
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: All U S officer's succeeded.
• 20:29
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now we could add John Marsh is named to that list.
• 20:33
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Because his plan.
• 20:35
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Also succeeded.
• 20:37
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: To some degree.
• 20:38
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But that was just the first part.
• 20:41
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The aftermath of the annexation and the subsequent gold rush.
• 20:45
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Brought a harsh new set of challenges for both men.
• 20:49
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Ironically marsh.
• 20:51
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Like the Mexican, California rancheros, whom he disdained.
• 20:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Also found himself having to defend his title to his Rancho.
• 21:01
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Against squatters.
• 21:03
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Anglo-American squatters who came and settled in his land.
• 21:07
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In addition.
• 21:09
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: According to his biographer.
• 21:11
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Marsha's biographer.
• 21:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The local judges and juries seem to be squarely in the hands of those squatters.
• 21:18
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Who.
• 21:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Truth be told, flooded into the state in part, thanks to the letter, writing campaigns of marsh himself.
• 21:25
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But perhaps his most significant legal difficulty arose from a dispute.
• 21:30
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: With his neighbor.
• 21:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Ignacio Cibrian.
• 21:34
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Whose Rancho San Miguel.
• 21:37
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But it up against his.
• 21:39
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now the conflict, which centered around Marsha's alleged refusal to pay Macchiatos for their services on his ranch.
• 21:47
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Like.
• 21:48
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Branding and, and, you know, taking care of the cattle.
• 21:52
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Led to a lawsuit.
• 21:54
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: No.
• 21:55
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, marsh won the case.
• 21:58
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But the animosity, it generated had fatal consequences for him.
• 22:02
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In September of 1856, marsh was murdered.
• 22:07
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Presumably by the same buck Cato's who has sued him.
• 22:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And his death left behind a young orphan daughter, Alice.
• 22:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: We mentioned before.
• 22:18
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Forbes for his part.
• 22:21
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Became involved.
• 22:23
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In a venture called the new Almaden.
• 22:26
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Quicksilver mercury mine.
• 22:30
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, a project that would test both his finances and ultimately tarnish his reputation with English speakers in California.
• 22:40
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The complex legal battles and financial maneuvering surrounding the mine, which is outside of San Jose today.
• 22:48
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: You can fact, there's, there's a park.
• 22:50
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: You can go and visit to see the remains at that mine.
• 22:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And the mind was ultimately nationalized by president Lincoln.
• 22:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But all the troubles arising from that venture occupied most of Forbes later years.
• 23:03
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And it challenged the social and political capital.
• 23:06
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: He had built up over decades in California.
• 23:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: It's California entered a new era under American rule.
• 23:14
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The legacies of Forbes and marsh took different paths.
• 23:18
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Forbes, despite being criticized from, by some Anglo-Americans for his involvement in the whole mining.
• 23:27
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Um, venture, which would be very interesting to do a podcast episode about.
• 23:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Continuing to maintain high standing among Hispanic, California.
• 23:36
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Even for decades later.
• 23:38
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: His position as a man who had fully embraced and contributed to Kelly formula society.
• 23:44
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Endured well, past 1850s.
• 23:47
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Thanks in part to the key role he played as a mediator between the Hispanic.
• 23:52
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Spanish speaking in English speaking communities.
• 23:56
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Marsh on the other hand.
• 23:58
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Gained a reputation as quote, the meanest man in California.
• 24:02
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: That's also from Bidwell.
• 24:04
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And his outsider status and transactional approach to relationships.
• 24:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Did little to endear him either.
• 24:13
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: To his Spanish speaking neighbors or as English speak or the new English speaking settlers.
• 24:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: In the end.
• 24:21
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The lives of James Alexander Forbes and John Marsh are a steady and contrasts.
• 24:27
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Both men saw great potential in California's future and they sought to influence it.
• 24:33
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But they're different approaches.
• 24:34
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Forbes.
• 24:36
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As a Weaver of the existing social fabric and marsh.
• 24:40
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As someone who tried to replace it.
• 24:43
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Led to drastically different outcomes for each of them.
• 24:48
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Marsh for example.
• 24:50
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: His efforts help secure the territory for the year.
• 24:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The us and his dreams for California were realized.
• 24:57
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But the violence of the era that he helped us you're in eventually caught up with him.
• 25:03
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Forbes.
• 25:05
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Whose political goals were defeated.
• 25:08
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Died at home in Oakland in 1881 at the age of 77.
• 25:13
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Having been married for 47 years.
• 25:16
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: I mean, father 12 children.
• 25:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: 10 of whom survived him.
• 25:22
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And those children.
• 25:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Those numerous bi-cultural children.
• 25:27
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Help continue to weave the fabric.
• 25:30
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Of a multiethnic society in California for years to come.
• 25:35
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Now.
• 25:36
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: As I said, this was just a brief overview of two individuals who came to California, Mexican, California.
• 25:45
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And how they.
• 25:48
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Survived through the 1830s, forties, and fifties.
• 25:53
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: There are lots of stories like theirs and.
• 25:57
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Each of those stories is particular in its own way.
• 26:01
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: But I think by looking at these two guys, We can get a good feel for how.
• 26:08
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Difficult.
• 26:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Life was.
• 26:12
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: The types of aspirations that people had.
• 26:16
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And.
• 26:18
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: How.
• 26:19
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Not having your goals realized isn't always.
• 26:24
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: A formula for defeat.
• 26:28
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: So I hope you found this interesting.
• 26:31
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Welcome to talk about it.
• 26:32
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Send me an email, contact me, let me know what you thought.
• 26:35
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Or if you'd like to know.
• 26:36
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: More about these two.
• 26:38
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Persons or their families.
• 26:40
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Both of their families also have interesting stories.
• 26:43
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: And, uh, we'll keep the conversation going.
• 26:47
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K: Thank you.
• 26:57
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• 27:27
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