Latest / Thinking Class / #060 - Warren Smith - Rediscovering Humility In The Search For Truth

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#060 - Warren Smith - Rediscovering Humility In The Search For Truth · Thinking Class

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello classmates and welcome to Thinking Class.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm John Gillam and today I'm speaking with Warren Smith.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Warren is a YouTuber and owns the channel The Secret Scholar Society.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, Warren and I discuss his transition from teaching to becoming a full-time YouTuber with his channel and why that happened.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: We think out loud about the importance of critical thinking, the nature of truth, how to navigate political discourse and media narratives, why storytelling helps us understand reality and the impact of societal taboos on open discussions.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: We also talk about how to recognize objective truths in a world filled with computing narratives, how fragile belief systems can be, the threats to freedom of expression, and whether the USA is feeling different following Trump's victory in the presidential election, how to achieve personal growth, and find the courage to challenge one's own beliefs, and why we need to engage in difficult conversations to navigate the unknown and much, much more.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Warren has proven once more that there is this narrative arc for people who suffer a great injustice, in this case, Warren losing his job, lose everything, and then they bounce back and they can live freely, but they've got to go through the suffering first.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: This was a really candid conversation about how Warren's worldview has changed over the years and the perils to look out for when navigating life.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: As always, classmates, like, follow, share, subscribe.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's grow this show together.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the show, classmates.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Warren Smith of the Secret Scholar Society.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Thinking Class.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for those who watch me and don't watch Warren, although I suspect many more of you might watch Warren than than watch me, is uh Warren is the uh the the um owner of the channel on YouTube, the Secret Scholar Society, and set it up when he was a teacher at a school.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um now, Warren, you are solely a YouTuber.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think maybe for the benefit of the listeners, the viewers, maybe we could track briefly why you're no longer a teacher and why you are focused fully on your project of Secret Scholar Society.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, as you said, I said I started creating content as a teacher when I stumbled upon Jordan Peterson doing something similar.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: I thought that was really interesting.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we were, as teachers, we were asked to create artifacts that show teaching.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, well, what better way than for video?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I just think it's a really interesting media.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: My background is in video filmmaking and trying to connect with an audience with a camera, so and that's what I taught.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: So it just naturally fit a video of an interaction with a student kind of gained got a lot of steam, and was really where all this began.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that was almost a year ago, because that was February, past February.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: And it was filmed at school, so it kind of caused some complexities at the schools in this unique position.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: We were all trying to kind of figure out how to navigate this, and tensions kind of got they didn't I didn't get in trouble for that video.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: I I think there was so much attention on it that the head person made the executive call.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that they that was they viewed that as the safe path, and I could understand that.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it's possible that they regretted it later because then I once that happened, uh a fellow teacher and I started in this room once a week.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: We would just record something around critical thinking.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's evolved greatly, the format.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, anyways, that is what led to me no longer teaching and doing this full time.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, your your the video you're referencing was uh one that I think has about a million views or something now.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh it's amazing what I think about six minutes of conversation can do.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So for everyone else's benefit, it was uh Warren having a discussion with a student who um asked Warren if he was a um if he would still support JK Rowling despite despite these are paraphrases having bigoted views.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And Warren goes on to use critical thinking analysis to ask questions as to what what the student's assumptions are based upon, um without actually applying any of your own value judgments.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not even that the video showed you arguing the toss or saying exactly what it was that that you thought.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I suppose anyone visiting your channel, Warren, is they'll see you having conversations like that or analysing other public figures like Barry Weiss, who uh smeared uh Tulsi Gabbard on Joe Rogan's podcast, and he was asking questions and the claims kind of fell apart, they felt baseless, or you looking at other prominent YouTubers like David Pacman decrying the loss of his subscribers, um, albeit a small amount um compared to the vast amount that he has, um, and you trying to get to the bottom of whether it was really a big thing and whether the things that he was basing it on were real.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And even where I'm where I live, I live in Scotland, you even uh looked at the end of the former First Minister of Scotland, Hamza Youssef's career, his resignation, how it was impacted by his approach to both a gender recognition bill, but also through a speech that he gave in 2020, uh uh where he um I suppose spat white yeah white, white, he spat out of his mouth the problem that uh everyone in government was was white, and um he he brought in a hate speech law.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and interestingly, he got the most complaints for hate speech for that that speech.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So look, you you clearly what you do, which is you create content which is you know doesn't not always in in long form, is it garners a lot of eyeballs, a lot of ear ears.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and you were on Jordan Peterson a couple of weeks ago.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So what was it that drove you to start your channel uh which is focused on thinking critically out in the open?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that video, the JK Rowling video did open a door to a remarkable opportunity.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: Suddenly you have the chance to try and make something of this.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's it'd be much easier not to, because it's there's a it's uh it's a very unpredictable business where you are you're always worried about is the algorithm gonna stop liking me or whatnot, like or in which case it would be detrimental.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: What if what if there was some rule change at YouTube and everything I've you know?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's stressful, but I think it was just that door opening and then trying to make the most of an opportunity and kind of make it up as you go and see what works.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Just get as close to the truth as you can, say what you think, follow logic.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I that's the the the core tenet is to just follow the logic wherever it takes you.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: And all the material you're mentioning, that's the thread that connects everything.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's recognizing because conflict drives story in every video.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: There's a a conflict, and it's usually around that idea of let's say it's an interview, um Bill Maher interviewing someone, and they're what they're saying is not logical, and it's and just kind of all it's something sometimes it's kind of like being a commentator at a sports game, and you're kind of pointing out the plays as they occur.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then now and then I'll add observations, but yeah, it was really just making the most of this opportunity, and then once I did lose the teaching position, it was okay, I've really got to make this work, and that forced me to focus in another way and to treat it with much more seriousness, and that's when it started to to grow.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: How would you describe your audience and their inclinations?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because you aren't someone who comes across as being politically driven within your videos as you talked about there, you're analyzing people's logic or other illogical, and you're trying to get to the source of truth.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is fair to say actually, you approach most of your content with the eye of neutrality, you're just trying to assess the base of the claims.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: But how how would you describe the political engagement of your audience?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find that you've got a a mixed bag or or it's a good question in one way?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard to know.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you have analytics.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what I c have come to the best way I think there is to think about this is to treat the audience as though it's me.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of me's out there.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: So when I'm making something, I've and I could tell in the performance of a video, if the video does well, it's a video I genuinely am interested in.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's one that I would want to watch compared to a video where I feel like I'm just trying to put something out and this is trending right now.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's really interesting how that connects.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: So I do think there are a lot of people out there that are similar to me and in these things that interest me.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I yeah, I strive to be as neutral as possible.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think right now it's this I mean, leading up to this election, it's it's such a remarkable time that we're in right now.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think so many people, and we saw that in the results of the US election, so many people are frustrated by it seems that there are many people that just seem to think that reality is malleable, or it can be truth can be altered.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's as a graduate student, I encountered a lot of professors that really believe that postmodern belief that well, what is truth?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: There's no such thing as truth because all truth is just the result of social constructs wielded by those in power to hold on to power.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: Many people really do believe that.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I can understand why it's it has an allure, and part of the reason that's so powerful is because some of that is true, you know, it's some in the sense that well anyways, as far as like but there is a thread of like objective truth, and we can't dismiss that.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned the election, um, you've got some some content on your page which uh shows you uh analyzing some of the news that people were asking for divorces because their loved ones, the ones they're in a relationship with, had voted for Trump.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: We've also seen all over the internet in the days following the uh Trump 2.0 election, uh people uh formatively screaming in anger uh at what's happening.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then I suppose you've also got lots of content, which, as you talked about, is trying to get to the bottom of language.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we talk about critical thinking, maybe people don't don't know what it is.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: That that that reflection of language toward reality is is critical thinking, if people want to do it, what is it?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is it is it then questioning and holding the ability to get closer to reality and what the language means?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think critical thinking is you're can you're navigating the stories that make up the world in real time as you encounter them.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: And this is the object I used to think because I've been thinking about this a lot, and my thoughts on this have evolved more towards the emphasis on story and the reality that I the world is made up of.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: We make sense of the world through stories, these competing stories.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: So in these YouTube videos, Bill Maher versus you know Tyson or who it's two competing stories.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: It allows us to and then I I make the parallel, like in that video where he uh Neil deGrasse Tyson in that video, that's really what's happening there, and that's what I'm trying to emphasize because and I make the comparison to mathematics, sort of where you know mathematicians they don't invent anything, they're discovering something about reality.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: Mathematics gives them a way to articulate the fabric of reality that cannot be otherwise articulated through these symbols and numbers, it's just this language.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so words are just the tools that we use.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: If you think about the analogy I use is if you were imagine boats floating on the surface of the ocean, the boats are the words.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: Everything that's really meaningful and interesting is below the surface, subtext, the elusive, intangible, everything we're trying to use, those tools, use the mathematics to communicate.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: So when a mathematician makes a breakthrough, a mathematical breakthrough, they're not creating something, they're uncovering something that already exists, like an archaeologist.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: So there is that everything beneath like the the artifacts that's the elusive, intangible, that's that's reality.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: That and that's the thing that people feel is under assault or being manipulated often, and whether it's through media or whatnot, and that's where a lot of the frustration comes from.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think it transcends politics.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Were you do you think that's what you were driven by with the channel at a subconscious level when it's later on that you've come to the conclusion, as you were just explaining there, this symbolic um nature of being able to see the world and perceive the world?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that there is an objective reality in which to discover it's not about creating anything, it's about discovering it through uh uh observation analytics.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that's come more clearly to you now?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think you were you were pushed toward what you were doing because you just felt like something was off in the culture and you wanted to look at it?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or was it just was there more design to it than that?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I was fat I I've always been fascinated by the idea of being able to detect these patterns.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm terrible at mathematics, I'm not a mathematician, but I have a great admiration for especially movies about mathematics.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: A Beautiful Mind is one of my favorite movies.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: I really liked Oppenheimer, these the movies that delve into science.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's where the Secret Scholars name, Secret Scholar Society idea came from way before the viral video.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um it was creating a narrative film uh around a story that explores that idea.
• 15:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I ended up making just a little practice short film with that other teacher.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's it's I wouldn't even call it a short film, it was just the two of us with a camera, so it's so low production value that it and coincidentally that uh was posted about a month before all this began.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know if that answers your question, but there was that fascination with those that do pursue the patterns of reality.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: What what what and perhaps you've been reflecting on this?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose you you're you search for patterns.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Have you found yourself trying to conform your life to a particular pattern or a symbolic structure?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: I have come to the can be convinced that there is this idea of God.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: Everything we can't articulate, that's what's beneath the surface, the elusive, intangible, it's what was prior to the Big Bang.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: And when you and I do believe Jordan Peterson is correct about I think he has the best approach to this.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: When you live as though God exists, you'll you can you will see results.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: The very fact that by doing so yields results.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's something there.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh well shoot, I forgot what your question was, but so oh, how do I order my life?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I find myself, and when I'm making these videos, that's a recurring theme as well.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Is that I keep noticing people bring about their own destruction by trying to trick reality or manipulate reality or ignore it or be untruthful, which or living as though God doesn't exist, and it's okay to assassinate a CEO of a healthcare company because you don't like healthcare.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: It it's it would be easy to give in to that emotional response, but that's the opposite.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: I've read that's the opposite of living as though God exists, not when we choose to do it, but it's it's and it's happening right now.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: We're seeing there's these two different patterns.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: So that's how I structure it's more trying to live in accordance with the laws of reality.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I do believe nothing can improve a person's life more than first recognizing that there are laws of reality, and then it's living in accordance with the it's it's like being a sailor in a sailboat, going back to that now, and you're trying to sail against the wind.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: First, you have to recognize that there's currents, there's winds, you need to know how to uh adjust the sail so it catches the winds you can get where you want to go, versus those that think there is no objective truth, there is no wind, really.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's not, it's that's maybe that's a bad analogy.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's a good analogy.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think analogies, metaphors are helpful to be able to try and get to the bottom of things because what you're trying to describe is not something that we could uh put in a bullet point summary.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and if you tried to, it would be challenged, but it's almost like there's a um there's a there's a gestalt to it, right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's like something that you sense that you you can sense the whole of something, like that's the reality, that's the truth.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I I know where you're coming from.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I can I can feel it, and I can try to describe it.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: It would be imperfect, and but I can try my best to match the reality, but then it's always going to end up being interpreted, perhaps misinterpreted by how people are following their own patterns, right?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like the ones you've talked about, whether it be that there's no such thing as a reality, that we can create our own reality, we're the authors of all of this, um, rather than, as you say, trying to conform yourself to.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm I'm very sympathetic with what you say because I've lived both ways, and I can tell you how it works when you live the other way, because it took me a long time to get back on the path and getting on the well, just onto the path, actually.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when I got onto the path, whether it through, whether it's through the um finding out about ancient Greek philosophy and then later the Catholic worldview that laid on top of that, and realizing that my my life being ordered in such a way was one that was um infinitely more centered um and made it clear as to the things that were going to destroy me in some way.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it might not be a really melodramatic destruction, but a way in which you can feel this internal compass telling you you've gone in the wrong direction.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I'm I'm totally with you, and I think you're right, you do see these patterns emerging and um and these these opposing camps, I suppose.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it'll be very interesting to see what wins out.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you've made the case that reality always wins in the end.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um I'm I want to touch a little bit on taboos, Warren, the taboos that govern our political and cultural discourse.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of your videos, and this does link to the the point about um reality and when reality starts to hit you, is you you had this video of um it was an African-American who'd been delivering a speech at the Young Americans Conference, and one of the speaker, one of the audience members, um decided to start talking about how she had white privilege.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And she was challenged, and she was challenged very vociferously but pivotally.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like he was coming back hard on her with a long uh tract.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: He was just asking pointed questions.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Have you got privilege over to me over me?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Have you got privilege?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And everything she responded to didn't satisfy him, it didn't.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: explain and that actually ended up jumping around and she started talking about previous generations and all of those things.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And in the end, she broke down under his questioning because she couldn't answer.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then she felt humiliated because he asked those questions and insisted that she tell her how she has privilege over him in the here and now, not because of potential generational things.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And besides, she doesn't know who came before him and who his ancestors were and how they lived.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so what was interesting in that Warren was in the end, once she realized that she didn't have an answer and it wasn't satisfactory, is she said, look, I think you got it wrong.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't being confrontational.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was trying to acknowledge the system.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was making an acknowledgement of the system.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he didn't believe there was a system or that she credibly described that there was one.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so back to the taboo's point, do you think that when people are acknowledging the system in this particular respect, they're actually just acknowledging the system which has been constructed for their worldview.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they are acknowledging that there is this discourse of oppression and this is what I'm meant to say.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: But then because they have put it forward with someone they expect to be on their side and that they're doing it for, it's pure cognitive dissonance because reality's rushed in.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And is that is that the is that the key failure for people to critically think when you have you just aligned yourself with a system.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I I start with if anyone asks you what is critical thinking, I think at its core it is navigating those stories or contending with the stories that make up the world because at that example that student was was telling a story the story that I have white white privilege that's a a story.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: Now that doesn't mean that there's going to be some cases where yes you could point out I mean nothing comes to mind right now I'm sure there's there's there is racism in the world.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: There's nothing we're ever going to be able to do to negate that.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: But when when you I don't think she was really humiliated.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think that was an escape mechanism because it occurs this is another pattern that I see so frequently that it's how dare I'm I'm standing I'm trying to do something good.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: How dare you push back on that and then boom victim mode and it's you get emotional about that and it it's all part of that story.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: And oftentimes students at that age are not ever challenged on those stories because there this goes to the taboo idea it is when I was in graduate school it was taboo to challenge that narrative which is what that speaker was doing.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: How do you have privilege over me?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: And she didn't quite know what to do because she was speaking to a black man.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: So that also upended the story that's how I it all goes back to story.
• 25:10
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• 25:15
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• 25:23
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• 25:27
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• 25:39
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• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening thanks for sharing thanks for showing your support enjoy the rest of the show classmate as you're talking there um you made me think of a book by Will Store he's a British journalist game on on social position and how to use it and it and he basically was outlining that there are various different games that people that people play in which to get status and I suppose you know the the really summary level way to put it in in one of the status games that we see all the time is obviously the virtue game um which we call virtue signaling but he he he lays it out you know much more uh succinctly and so does Jordan Peterson that's what caused Jordan Peterson to rise the way he did was acknowledging there was a taboo about acknowledging that there are hierarchies in the world and there always will be but that's there's a biological explanation for that and it's all not just the result of social constructs and so rather than shake your fist at reality live in accordance with recognize the laws of reality and play the game to the best of your ability because the game because you're in it the game exists versus those who are trying to tear the game down because it's all a social construct yeah which was the traditional story.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that reminds me of Peterson when you what you're describing.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah absolutely and some of the some of the status games are shortcuts unfortunately those shortcuts can be found out and it feels to me like watching that video back and having heard you speak and yeah it wasn't a humiliation but it was almost like because she had been within her her political tribe I suppose she's either self-accorded herself status but probably has status by them all nodding along that this is what you say and this is what you do and all of a sudden it's out in the open that that status doesn't actually exist.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's built on sand she was probably humiliated but I don't think that that's why she started to cry I think that that it was a way it was a a coping mechanism I think because you because I I encounter that as well it's a common response I'm but I'm sure she was in that feeling of panic when you're on the spot of feeling trapped it's that's what happens when you truly believe a story you buy into a story and it suddenly starts to fall apart before you it is startling.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked a bit about uh the trouble you can get in for freely expressing yourself you you're you're an example of that even though as we mentioned you were uh you weren't applying value judgments to things you were asking questions and and your interlocutors as it were were doing the work of um proving that they might have been on shaky ground but notwithstanding we've seen at least up until uh the election uh in in the US and there were there was a potential that the US was headed in the direction of formally um putting uh restrictions on freedom of expression there were there were very high ranking officials and media personalities talking about why the First Amendment might not be um particularly relevant to today um and and we've already talked about my own country with uh with with restrictions on on speech first in Scotland and now it's happening in the United Kingdom more broadly now we have um Sakya Starmer as our prime minister people find themselves in jail for for tweets um uh that just is mind blowing to me and I think most Americans we can't wrap our minds fully around that story yeah what what what what's uh what what do you what what is it that you what what is it that you think so what's happening in the US when you think about the UK now and you you you look at us what's the what's the discourse well I remember I wasn't aware of like Tommy Robinson or really what was going on until the pro the protests I guess we could call them erupted rather recently over the summer yeah and chaos seemed to be I don't know to the full extent of how bad it was but the and then video YouTube videos being taken down and listening to different perspectives and then Tommy Robinson sits down with Jordan Peterson and I start to get a sense and again that it's just remarkable like again this goes back to the to the story so if when I'm listening to that I'm trying to figure out because there's going to be truth to some truth to the story.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's not gonna all be true because again we're trying to the story is the best we can do to to make sense of things are just vastly complex.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's far more complex than we think.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I I I want to be honest with myself and acknowledge that I don't really know the complex but I but I can see okay so then the I did that recent video on um no shoot the British like rock star guy who's with the YouTube channel um Russell Brand oh yes yeah from years ago when he wrestles with Nigel Farage yes on BBC's questions yeah and when I'm and I was what really interested me about that clip what I'm the reason I wanted to make that video was because of the the two members of the audience who spoke up British citizens saying he's not racist we're not racist for pointing out because there's liter this is just a an observation about reality.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: This is not I'm not making a value judgment here.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: The fact is like mathematically it that we can't continue on in a in this way there's only so much it's going to implode inevitably and so I think that I I so I see happen it must be connected to that poor management of that issue and then stomping down people that try and articulate those concerns and saying no you um and you with the oversimplification that oh you're an extremist you're racist for having these concerns which stifles the conversation and inevitably whenever we stifle the conversation it just exacerbates the problem.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: But have you felt and it's a tired term but I think it matches reality a vibe shift since the um since the election day around oh yeah freedom of expression because even me who set this podcast up because I felt like um the philosopher John Gray was on Andrew Sullivan's podcast uh last year and he is famous for saying look liberalism's gone but look it was a it was a settlement in England that it was exported as part of the dominions it was the way that things were but with regards to freedom of expression those days are gone but if you want to keep it alive you can't just sit there and hope it's going to be handed on down from you it's an emergent property of culture.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to practice it culture is a living thing.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so he said you want to keep these these things alive you've got to do it yourself and I thought right well I'll have to go and start a podcast then come what may but interestingly we haven't had an election you know we whilst uh whilst we may be the junior partner in our special relationship and in some ways probably a bit of a um bit of a colonial outpost that the tables have turned is we don't have new leadership and yet we can certainly feel that the winds seem to be changing and now you know you're looking over your shoulder a little bit less.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: How how's it felt for you since pre-November 6th and I mean it's massive I would say there's been a massive change let's just take an example of TYT the young Turks on YouTube they're that I think they are recognizing I think many content creators and this goes to the David Pacman losing subscribers.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's why that video is even worth making it because it's not about him losing subscribers it's about the shift that's occurring it I I think it goes back to stories.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: We have we that's what the election was two competing stories, two different candidates and the results are so were so overwhelming I think that too too big to rig that idea that it's causing many to reassess that never you never thought would reassess like I never thought Shank Uger or Annika Sparan I've I've heard her kind of point she had that personal experience where she pointed out some flaws on the left and everything but they're and they're coming under fire by many claiming that they're even going full mag which is not a fair accurate characterization.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: How much of that though is trying to survive in business because they recognize what the all where the audience is and they're recognizing CNN is going like pretty they're going under pretty much MSNBC going under Fox News is stable still uh so how much of that is survival but there is a shift occurring for sure as far as what's happening over the pond I think that because going back to break me if I'm wrong we had Trump 2016 and then Brexit after that correct no Brexit was before Brexit was June 2016 so five months before interesting so then I'm wrong about that there is a correlation though I think between we are cousins it's going to absolutely yeah so there's hope I think yeah well uh uh uh a friend of mine and I were talking the other night about that hope and Brexit as we just talked about was the first big um shaking of the system uh and actually my worldview's changed a lot since then I I'd I'd voted to remain and was pretty much a classic guardian reader and it uh there are many reasons why that flipped over time and I realized that actually if I was given it again I would I would vote to leave uh not least because I saw the response of the political class to that vote trying to stifle it which is just so terrible for democracy and ultimately that's why Boris Johnson 2019 won on an absolute landslide uh because he was the only one on the ticket who was saying no let's get Brexit done because this is going to be democratically terrible if we don't and everyone else wanted a second referendum because you know it uh people got it wrong let's get them to vote until they get it right um and then it was all squandered and so whilst uh you know the US had Trump 1.0 back to the Democrats after that we know what happened in the four years afterwards is now we're looking across going ah well we kind of squandered our ability because the political class just wouldn't let go of that and then screwed things up in the next government and now we've got the government we have probably for the next four and a half years and then we're looking around and we see things shifting over on the continent we see it shifting in the US and so we got there first but then we took a few steps back and now we're just hoping that things change a bit.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: What have you learned about yourself uh the the current culture and human nature following your ostracism I suppose from the education system uh and and then speaking freely online about the things that you do that there are many people out there that there is a hunger for this that there is a I do think it transcends politics.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's more of a yeah it goes to the freedom of speech but the freedom really to pursue reality and to it's just when when you feel like reality it it's a dangerous game to play and I think it shook it got to a point where it shook people and there there's a hunger for logic which I think is like is what you're trying to do as well with your work.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I think we share I imagine to be very similar people would find value in your work.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: So the the short answer would be I I had never I had no idea how many people there were out there but now seeing like a video and I don't know how much of that is algorithm and and whatnot but and that so that was prior to the election after losing my job and I didn't think I was very unsure about how I would be able to do you know because at the time I had like 5000 subscribers that's not enough to make money and so that's been that's not a it's not that interesting of an answer but it that would be the honest answer.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's just open it's been eye-opening as to how many people there are and then came the election and that was eye-opening for everyone right so that's why I predicted the election as I did because of my experiences and those months prior I could feel this hunger and see the comments you can it's been overwhelmingly supportive and in the beginning I had people try and I love debating I love people trying to challenge what I'm saying but it that's almost vanished it's like no one will push back now and you'll see a silly comment on YouTube but it used to be where I'd be on Discord and someone would ambush the room and try and debate and it doesn't happen anymore.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: I can't I can't even get anyone to sit down in here in this room off camera.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I have them off camera is because first of all they wouldn't do it with their face on camera.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: I had my my neighbor across the street who's a a lawyer he then he his wife wouldn't let him do it again after that and so then he got his brother to do it and he's the guy in the video where you see a Kamala voter change his mind.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: That was him and I don't think he's gonna do it again.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like oh well yeah you've you've gotten past that point now where people people there's lots of eyeballs on you I mean your your videos are pulling in uh frequently up to 7500 views I mean it's uh it's quite something so uh but but that does tell you doesn't it right that that people and we're we're all none of us are immune from it um but we can go along with our our worldviews and our assumptions and be so sure that we're right but what's quite interesting is then when the eyeballs are on you and someone is integer interrogating you I'm not saying you torture people bamboo sheets under the fingernails or anything but the fact they're not willing to do it suggests that actually even with a slight bit of introspection even with the opportunity to have someone ask some questions of you you're actually wondering do I have anything right at all and so you're probably still doing the same work without actually having spoken to them.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're probably still getting to the end point in in some respects.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good point.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you I'll tell you one quick some my mom for example deeply disagrees with me on pretty much everything and I've I've I wish I could get her to talk to me and have it recorded she off camera her identity secret but she and she just will never do it and and what that indicates to me is what you were just saying.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_03: So doesn't that indicate that there might be something wrong if you're that afraid of anyone hearing what you think.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well I suppose it all it all maps back to all of the discourse that was very very prevalent right up until the election about misinformation disinformation malinformation right is those people who are the gatekeepers the ones who are deciding what was the good stuff was really just them saying could you stay away from challenging the tenets of what it is that we hold to be true our shiboleths and whilst this is at a much smaller scale this is individuals it's kind of similar where they're they're gatekeeping their own information their own their own operating systems and they're saying don't come and challenge that I'm not going to give you the opportunity to do it.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: They just don't have the bureaucracy to be able to do it so they can just they just say no instead.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Warren what advice would you give to someone who's either I don't know fully bought into a worldview or say a a theory of philosophy um or be struggling to get on board with what they're being told.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: So they're in an institution and they feel like they're being told something that's a bit of a half truth and they're having to go along with it or as we talked about there are various cultural narratives media narratives that are being peddled and they find themselves part of groups that are going along with it but they're unsure how how would you tell people to respond in those situations what should they do to go voluntarily enter the unknown which is voluntarily allow yourself to be challenged so sit down in that case sit down off camera and do it or do it off of camera don't record it but have the conversation don't stifle the conversation a shy way but I really believe that because that is how you're going to get to the point of recognizing because there nothing will improve your life more than living in accordance with the law
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Of reality and using that playing the game because you're in the game, there's nothing we can do about that.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's playing the game by voluntarily challenging because how because I don't know what I'm stumbling through this just like everyone, but the only way to do it is to stumble through it, pick it apart, challenge it, try it.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: And the only way to do yeah, to do that, that's the voluntarily entering the unknown.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: The debate, thinking about it, allowing yourself to question, to listen, break down the story so you can rebuild it more accurately.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's amazing how many people want to even do that.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I do think that all echoes into voluntarily entering the unknown.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's just easier not to.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's easier.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: And if you watch that Jordan Peterson sit-down room, that was one of the I think that was really the core theme.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's why the school didn't want, it was easier for the school to get rid of me.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: We had an opportunity to really, I was teaching video production.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: We had an opportunity to do something great, but it wasn't in there.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: Peters Morgan asked me to come on, and I decided not to ask for permission.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: He made the great observation.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, they would have said no, because there was nothing in their interest.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: So many people in their life just don't give themselves the permission.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: They stay, they so give yourself the permission, would be my my answer and voluntarily into the unknown.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, don't ask for permission.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I've always I've always found myself around bosses who probably, as part of bureaucracies, they should give different advice, but it's quite interesting.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: They know how constraining they can be, and they'll say, Do you know what?
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh don't ask for permission now.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: Ask for forgiveness.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: Forgiveness rather than permission.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: And human beings are will always, I think this is one of those laws of reality that I'm constantly on the lookout for.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_03: One is that people will always take the path of least resistance, most people.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it's easier to be foolish than to be wise.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: It takes a bit more effort to be wise and to do the work.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: Therefore, logically, most people will be foolish rather than wise.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: Don't let yourself be one of them.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: You've mentioned Jordan Peterson a few times, and whilst I'm I'm picking up themes of courage, that's the only way that you can step out into the unknown.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: But adding on to that, and I suppose you're starting to see it yourself, given what's happened to you since you uh left the school, is the potential that you have within you.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: The fact you're now putting yourself out there, and you put yourself out initially, has allowed you to start opening up this um vast um uh kind of arena of potential within you that potentially would never have been tapped before unless you'd had the courage to just do those things because you found them interesting, regardless of the consequences.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that video would never have like gone.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: None of this would have happened if I hadn't just been doing what interested me, not thinking anyone would see it.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to be willing to put yourself out there to even get lucky.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I certainly wish you all the best.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm delighted to see that you're doing very well, and I think it's also really refreshing to see someone who creates videos that commonly go viral without it being slop content.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's stuff that is not too overly political.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I have conservative inclinations, small c conservative inclinations, but a whole bunch of others as well.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm not really afraid to put them out there, but I'll I'll speak to anyone.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: I try not to have my conversations be speaking to a particular audience.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're you're similar, but you're even more neutral.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that you are able to ask questions, you don't add value judgments.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: And considering lots of people on YouTube make their advertising revenue just trying to hit the trigger, always hit the trigger, almost doesn't really matter what's in there, and try and get that audience capture.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that you're building an audience without doing those pretty cynical moves, I think's great and good for YouTube.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'll try.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to do that and trying to stay as neutral as possible.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: I really appreciate that.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's great to hear that that's your read on it because that's what I'm going for.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, success in that respect.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Before I let you go, Warren, I like to ask all of my guests the same question, which is what have you changed your mind on in the course of your life?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps something that you thought was absolutely true, that it's just unchallengeable, and that's just what you thought, but then things changed, and and what was it that made you change your mind?
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, first I would say the the idea that uh of a higher power meaning that which we can't articulate in the mystery of life, but also just the complexity of life.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what drew me when I first saw like Jordan Peterson, Kathy Newman.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I think it resonated for so many people so massively.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think at the core it was recognizing that there was a story being presented that was vastly more complex.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_03: And up until that point, I had just been sold to this simple story, no one questioned the story, and to see and you can feel like that there's truth on his side because it's like she's trying to pick apart the story, but it's like bullets bouncing off a tank.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_03: And that is the essence of of reality.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_03: When you when you are in line with the fabric of reality, those laws of reality, that's why I say reality in the end wins.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's what it looks like, bullets bouncing off a tank.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Did you ever find yourself previously in life living without that recognition of reality?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh and and what was the you mentioned Jordan Peterson, but were there were there other game-changing moments that started to shift your view?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: In graduate school, I never questioned anything, you know, and and being the idea of white privilege and being told to not speak during a certain meeting in a classroom, I remember vividly.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_03: For there was a it was a four-hour class, which is long, and so I had to sit there for four hours, and I wasn't supposed to speak because I was white.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember thinking, isn't doesn't that logically contradict Martin Luther King or anything?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: But I had never questioned anything before, and I was 26, so that's a long way to go in life without questioning these stories, so question them.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, on that note, I mean that that's a wild story to finish on, and I'm very glad you're able you've found your voice and you're sharing it with everyone.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: You keep fighting the good fight.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what can what can people expect from you?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: Where can they find you, Warren?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you can find the YouTube channel Warren Smith Secret Scholars Society on on X WT Smith17.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Just gonna keep making content and make it up as I go.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, look forward to seeing where it goes.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me, Warren.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate your time.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: To keep up to date with all that I am doing, please subscribe to the Thinking Class YouTube channel at Thinking Class and follow me on X at Thinking Classes.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking Class seeks to understand the civilizational issues we face and why what our leaders do in response matters.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Here I seek to explore the ideas, values, and culture that made our civilization, those that are unmaking it, and how leaders at our public and private institutions should respond.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Engage with me on YouTube or X or write to me at thinkingclasspod at gmail.com to tell me who you want me to speak to and what topics are important to you.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to seeing you there and for joining me on this journey.