Latest / Math Therapy / Why we can’t binge-learn math like Netflix w/ Rob Baier

Transcript

Why we can’t binge-learn math like Netflix w/ Rob Baier · Math Therapy

• 0:03
  Rob Baier: You coming at any educator, saying why aren't they teach in the way that I learned, my question to you is, did you like math?
• 0:09
  Rob Baier: Do you want us to still teach it the way that you learned it?
• 0:13
  Rob Baier: So you're saying you don't like math, you hate math, math isn't your thing, math isn't your jam.
• 0:17
  Rob Baier: But you want us to teach your kids the same way.
• 0:19
  Rob Baier: That's crazy.
• 0:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay guys.
• 0:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 0:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just got back from 40 days on the road speaking to educators across North America about Math Therapy, and I feel like I've just like arisen from a fugue state.
• 0:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what just happened?
• 0:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I literally left sunny Palm Springs, 10 hours later, I was in snowy Toronto.
• 0:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: It has been a wild ride.
• 0:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was just so cool to see so many teachers wearing their new Math Therapy merch, and I literally almost died when I found out that my book sold out at two of the conferences I was at.
• 0:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what?
• 0:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Huh?
• 0:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you guys so much.
• 0:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know, I just, I learned so, so much from all of you and all of the teachers there and all of the incredible educators.
• 1:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I also have to say that what I really learned is that our collective obsession with the six seven situation is not slowing down anytime soon.
• 1:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's ridiculous.
• 1:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: It doesn't make any sense.
• 1:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: We all hate it, but when life hands you lemons, you make a podcast about it.
• 1:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: So before we get into today's interview, I wanna try something with you guys.
• 1:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you or a teacher or parent you know has found some way to incorporate this like six seven nonsense into your kids' learning, I want to hear about it.
• 1:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've heard some stories about this and I thought this is a great example of meeting kids where they are and incorporating what they're interested in to get them invested in learning, no matter how completely ridiculous we think it is.
• 1:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, text the podcast with a brief story or send a voice note by Instagram DM or by email to vanessa@themathguru.ca.
• 1:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Links for those are in this episode's description.
• 1:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanna hear from you.
• 1:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Alright, onto today's episode.
• 1:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: So this crazy teacher conference tour I've been on has been truly incredible, both for the thousands of inspiring teachers I've met, and also the incredible network of other innovators in the math ed world trying to fix the broken parts of the system.
• 2:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's why I've been so excited to have Rob Baier on the podcast because guys, he's one of the most passionate, inspiring math educators I know.
• 2:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: And honestly, I love him even more for the authentic, loyal friend that he is.
• 2:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: As I've gotten to know Rob more and more over the past 40 days, I've realized how rare it is to meet someone who always stands up for what they believe in, won't back down when they sense bullshit, and truly has his heart set on what is best for those around him.
• 2:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's why today's conversation is so special because Rob does not hold back. As usual, I went in with a plan and then instead of following that plan, I just asked him the first thing that popped into my mind, and that sent us down a rabbit hole debating how our assessment systems contribute to math anxiety and trauma, why we became so obsessed with getting every student into calculus in the first place, and what student learning has in common with binging an entire season of Ginny and Georgia.
• 3:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Rob shared so much practical advice for teachers and generally like made me snort laugh multiple times in this episode.
• 3:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Remember, if something makes you go, oh my God, you can always pause, share this episode with a friend you want to yell about it with, and text the podcast if you have any thoughts by hitting the link in the show notes.
• 3:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: So guys, here we go.
• 3:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I cannot wait for you to meet my friend, the one and only Rob Baier.
• 3:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hello Rob.
• 3:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Welcome to the podcast.
• 3:31
  Rob Baier: Oh, thanks.
• 3:32
  Rob Baier: Thanks for having me.
• 3:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: You host your own podcast, don't you?
• 3:38
  Rob Baier: I do.
• 3:39
  Rob Baier: Is this how we're gonna do this?
• 3:40
  Rob Baier: Yes.
• 3:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know.
• 3:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's just what came outta my mouth.
• 3:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just,
• 3:44
  Rob Baier: Yes.
• 3:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: just occurred to me.
• 3:46
  Rob Baier: own podcast with Chris Luzniak, who is, his book is Up for Debate.
• 3:51
  Rob Baier: Our podcast is called Debate Math.
• 3:53
  Rob Baier: I don't know what to do with my hands.
• 3:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 3:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: The reason I brought, first of all, this is an audio podcast.
• 3:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: No one's gonna be watching the video, so don't even worry about that.
• 4:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 4:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: The reason I brought that up is a, it just occurred to me, and I just say the first thing that comes into my mind, because I have no filter, this is just how it works.
• 4:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: But it occurred to me as I said it.
• 4:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, okay, you host your own podcast called Debate Math, which is all about having conversations and talking about the nuance of topics that can feel very heated.
• 4:20
  Rob Baier: Yeah.
• 4:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is a nice little segue because we've interviewed Pam Harris on the podcast, and the reason I know Pam Harris is because we both debated the value of algorithms on your podcast.
• 4:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: One thing that I think is really cool about you now that we've like kind of become friends is you and I love talking about things and kind of dissecting them and being like, well, what about this side?
• 4:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: What about that side?
• 4:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: And something I've always admired about you is that you share a quality I have, so really I'm just complimenting myself, which is that we're often able to see many sides of something.
• 4:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we don't like to jump to conclusions like we're, we don't wanna write something off.
• 4:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're very often like, well, yeah, I can see that side, but then am I overthinking it and am I do it?
• 4:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like we talk a lot like that, both of us.
• 5:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I kind of wanna know what is the thing in math education right now that you feel like you're kind of on the fence about, that you're having trouble picking a side?
• 5:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there something you can pick more than one, but right now, what's top of mind when I say that?
• 5:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's the thing for you?
• 5:18
  Rob Baier: Wow.
• 5:19
  Rob Baier: Um, Maybe around this idea of, of assessment like, what is assessment?
• 5:25
  Rob Baier: are we assessing for?
• 5:27
  Rob Baier: And it kind of comes out as is like grades.
• 5:32
  Rob Baier: then I'm like, okay, well then it sounds like it's not an issue within, do we have assessments or are we assessing, the issue is the educational system, the focus and impact on grades.
• 5:46
  Rob Baier: So like, how do we shift that?
• 5:47
  Rob Baier: Like my, so me being on the fence is like, do we have to play by the rules because of the rules that are, that were dealt with.
• 5:55
  Rob Baier: And how do we continue to honor, like what actual assessment is, like assessing do students actually understand a certain concept?
• 6:04
  Rob Baier: And are we in the moment where you know, I, I believe in like spiral learning trajectories and are we in that moment where we're assessing the student for on mastery, but they're not in the moment of mastery?
• 6:15
  Rob Baier: it is kind of a nuanced discussion.
• 6:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: You said a bunch of words that, okay, I'm gonna need you to define a few of the words you said.
• 6:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause you just like casually were like, I believe in a spiral curriculum.
• 6:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is that?
• 6:26
  Rob Baier: Spiral learning trajectories.
• 6:28
  Rob Baier: Okay.
• 6:29
  Rob Baier: So a spiral, oh, This is perfect for this podcast.
• 6:33
  Rob Baier: Let's talk
• 6:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 6:35
  Rob Baier: Okay.
• 6:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, I can't wait.
• 6:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 6:37
  Rob Baier: I am curious for you, what's something that you're binging right now?
• 6:40
  Rob Baier: Like that, that you sit down, you've binged, like what's
• 6:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 6:44
  Rob Baier: What is it?
• 6:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ginny and Georgia.
• 6:46
  Rob Baier: Okay, so, and like you sat down all in one setting, like setting and like you've like one where like you may
• 6:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: over three days?
• 6:53
  Rob Baier: three days you watched like a whole like series or something like that, right?
• 6:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 6:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I couldn't stop.
• 6:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, oh my God, I can't wait to watch.
• 6:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes, yes.
• 7:01
  Rob Baier: if a month from now, if we came back and I said, Hey, what were some of the things that happened during that?
• 7:06
  Rob Baier: Like what were some of the details you wouldn't be able to recall all of it.
• 7:10
  Rob Baier: You'd be able to recall parts of it, but what you would remember would not be as much as what you would remember right at the end of it.
• 7:17
  Rob Baier: Correct.
• 7:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 7:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yep.
• 7:20
  Rob Baier: Way back when we were younger, back in the day when
• 7:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 7:23
  Rob Baier: was weekly things and we're talking about like, let's say Thursday nights, you know, I know this is gonna date myself a little bit, but Thursday nights Friends is on.
• 7:32
  Rob Baier: Right?
• 7:32
  Rob Baier: Or
• 7:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And Who's the Boss?
• 7:35
  Rob Baier: the
• 7:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yep.
• 7:36
  Rob Baier: Meets World or you know, like all of these
• 7:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: oh yeah.
• 7:39
  Rob Baier: you know, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, like that was Friday nights.
• 7:41
  Rob Baier: But like, the fact that I
• 7:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: You remember the days of the weeks?
• 7:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why do you remember that?
• 7:47
  Rob Baier: on like ABC or whatever and
• 7:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, yeah.
• 7:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 7:49
  Rob Baier: So anyway, so when we're, when we're thinking back to that, like what happened between like an episode and another episode, we had time in between.
• 7:58
  Rob Baier: Right?
• 7:59
  Rob Baier: And that time in
• 8:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 8:00
  Rob Baier: socially, what were we.
• 8:01
  Rob Baier: We were
• 8:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Talking about it,
• 8:05
  Rob Baier: And we are processing
• 8:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: like, oh my.
• 8:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 8:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 8:08
  Rob Baier: conversations and like, you know, throwing things out there because like, oh, I wonder what's gonna happen next?
• 8:12
  Rob Baier: And like, you
• 8:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yep.
• 8:14
  Rob Baier: all this stuff.
• 8:14
  Rob Baier: Right.
• 8:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: In between weeks.
• 8:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: We'd be talking about the episodes.
• 8:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: We'd be like, oh, I can't wait till next week's episode.
• 8:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you think's gonna happen?
• 8:20
  Rob Baier: Yeah.
• 8:20
  Rob Baier: So full circle back to what is a, spiral, trajectory.
• 8:24
  Rob Baier: it, it's where we're teaching students like not to mastery in the moment, but we are, building something that continues to circle back and cycle back.
• 8:34
  Rob Baier: And in between they're applying like the, the little skills that they're learning they're having conversations and like, you know, it's not, and this can happen over weeks and as we're building towards mastery as opposed to, you know, like teaching in units, similar to binge watching where students would have a lot more success right after a unit, right, on an assessment or on, you know, in how they are having success and like math.
• 9:01
  Rob Baier: That's the difference between the two.
• 9:03
  Rob Baier: Like the one's like a more unit like driven, the other one's spiral where it's coming back, learning trajectories are how students learn mathematics, like if this, then that.
• 9:12
  Rob Baier: So, for instance, you were at our session at NCSM when we built the 17 times tables.
• 9:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: For People who dunno what we're talking about, it was very, very cool.
• 9:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like no one knows their 17 times tables off by heart.
• 9:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: So Rob was showing us a way that we could build the 17 times tables tapping into knowledge we already have, as opposed to mastering them by memorizing.
• 9:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: So for example, we could probably, most of us could say what 17 times one is,
• 9:41
  Rob Baier: Mm-hmm.
• 9:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's 17, we already know that.
• 9:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: How can we use that to figure out what 17 times two is?
• 9:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: We could even add them together if we wanted and get 34.
• 9:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now it might be hard to get to 17 times three, but if we have 34 is 17 times two, we could maybe use that knowledge to go to 17 times four, because we know it's doubling.
• 10:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's prior knowledge.
• 10:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 10:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways, I don't know if that was necessary.
• 10:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Go on.
• 10:07
  Rob Baier: actually a hundred percent necessary.
• 10:08
  Rob Baier: A learning trajectory would be things like, you know, we, we skip count, coming out of, you know, second grade we are able to skip count by twos and fives and tens, right?
• 10:18
  Rob Baier: So it's natural to start when you start to introduce multiplication to go back to talk about doubling, because the idea of doubling is a foundational skill for addition.
• 10:30
  Rob Baier: And so we can start with doubling and counting by twos.
• 10:33
  Rob Baier: and then we get into building the twos timestables.
• 10:35
  Rob Baier: So we're multiplying by two.
• 10:37
  Rob Baier: And then once we multiply by two and build the twos times tables, we're not mastering, we're just building those.
• 10:43
  Rob Baier: And then we build the five times tables.
• 10:44
  Rob Baier: And once we know the twos and we know the fives, and we also talked about doubling the natural progression would be fours because twos and
• 10:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: huh.
• 10:53
  Rob Baier: we know twos and fours, natural progression would be eights.
• 10:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Eight.
• 10:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, but sorry, back me up.
• 11:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: What does this have to do with spiraling?
• 11:02
  Rob Baier: This is the learning trajectory piece.
• 11:03
  Rob Baier: How students should learn mathematics or can learn mathematics like in a sequential way.
• 11:08
  Rob Baier: Like if they know
• 11:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 11:09
  Rob Baier: know this, then they know this, then they know this.
• 11:11
  Rob Baier: Yeah.
• 11:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're building on prior knowledge.
• 11:14
  Rob Baier: knowledge.
• 11:14
  Rob Baier: So like once you build the twos, then we learn the fours
• 11:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 11:19
  Rob Baier: the idea of like how we were all taught, we're gonna learn the twos, now we're gonna memorize the threes, now we're gonna
• 11:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 11:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 11:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 11:27
  Rob Baier: memorize the
• 11:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I got it.
• 11:28
  Rob Baier: and so on.
• 11:28
  Rob Baier: um, and then for whatever reason, sevens, you know, are right after sixes.
• 11:32
  Rob Baier: Right?
• 11:32
  Rob Baier: Well, in learning trajectories, like when we start thinking about how the brain actually, you know, is processing this.
• 11:39
  Rob Baier: Sevens are last,
• 11:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why are sevens lost?
• 11:41
  Rob Baier: Twos, fives, fours, because we got two and four.
• 11:45
  Rob Baier: Once we go fours, then we go eights
• 11:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because we're doubling every time, so we already understand that.
• 11:52
  Rob Baier: we come back
• 11:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then what?
• 11:53
  Rob Baier: back to threes.
• 11:54
  Rob Baier: 'cause once we know twos and fours, we can use deduction, deductive thinking to get to threes.
• 12:00
  Rob Baier: Now we know twos and threes, so naturally it's gonna be six.
• 12:06
  Rob Baier: And then once we
• 12:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, 'cause we can now double the, we can double the three to get to a six.
• 12:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, I love it.
• 12:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 12:11
  Rob Baier: And then from sixes.
• 12:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay.
• 12:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then.
• 12:13
  Rob Baier: then from sixes we go to nines.
• 12:15
  Rob Baier: And then, uh, the last one is sevens.
• 12:17
  Rob Baier: 'cause sevens doesn't really have a connection unless you're a massive American football fan.
• 12:20
  Rob Baier: You play Madden and you just count by touchdowns.
• 12:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I dunno what that means.
• 12:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, great.
• 12:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what we were talking about is really the idea of, as we started this talking about assessment, just to bring us back and the idea of when we're as teaching by unit, we are then assessing at the end of every unit we're assessing mastery.
• 12:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the problem is the unit on quadratics is over, now we've moved on to trigonometry.
• 12:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Months later a student has to take an exam and they're like, wait, what the fuck?
• 12:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't remember anything I did before because I've never looked at Quadratics again.
• 12:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now that we've moved on to trig.
• 12:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whereas with spiraling, we would slowly be introducing these pieces.
• 12:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: We would circle back, we would move for opioid, you know, can I just tell you that one time I actually walked into a PD session called "Spiraling the Curriculum", I think it was called, and I read it as spiraling over the curriculum and I was like, oh good, this is gonna be about like anxiety and like freaking out about the curriculum.
• 13:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I went into the session and they were showing all these diagrams of how you could teach this stuff.
• 13:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, fuck.
• 13:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: That is not, that is not what I thought I was doing here.
• 13:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, okay, so, you, you're on the fence about the idea of assessment and why we're doing it in a way, like, it's like, is that it?
• 13:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: This idea of like, what is it for?
• 13:32
  Rob Baier: no, I think I'm on the, the, it's more about being on the fence on do I wanna fight the fight against grades or do
• 13:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, my God, yes.
• 13:41
  Rob Baier: and,
• 13:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 13:42
  Rob Baier: then, but that, see, but that's a, it's tough because like in education, I think many of us, would be wanting to fight against grades.
• 13:49
  Rob Baier: But then you have like the social aspect of grades, and then there's also like, you know, like schools are still ranking in high school and like, there's like all these things that we kind of know are not really right, you know, in the grand
• 14:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: well.
• 14:04
  Rob Baier: But like, we still overemphasize grades and we overemphasize other things.
• 14:08
  Rob Baier: And it's like, okay, so, but, but assessment for like, what assessment really should be is like, what does a student know, coming in, what do they know now, how can we, you know, like find out where they're struggling and, and you know, and help 'em.
• 14:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 14:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have a question though.
• 14:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm really actually glad you brought up grading because I've been wanting to ask someone these questions.
• 14:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can tell me if you're like, this really isn't what I wanna be talking about right now, but when you say fighting the fight against grades, me and David were having this debate 'cause he is like, you know, he, everyone kind of brings this up.
• 14:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: At one point or another in an interview, someone will casually be like, and well, you know, like grades are bad and like, you know, we should get rid of grading.
• 14:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I've, I've always in the back of my mind wondered, can someone play, paint me a picture of what the vision is without grades, because I actually don't think I understand what it wa is, that's not you, you don't wanna paint it, you don't wanna do it.
• 15:02
  Rob Baier: no, I think, so our mutual friend Nolan, Nolan Fossum, he, you know, was, was working around like un grading at one point and
• 15:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 15:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: What, what is it?
• 15:14
  Rob Baier: well, and, and it posed some, some problems where he was providing feedback in the process and, the problems that, that he was getting was like, it's still like, it's a pushback from like a community and like, you still have to put grades in, especially as a high school teacher, because then it's like how, you know, if kids are on their way to college and university, like they need it on their transcript,
• 15:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah,
• 15:37
  Rob Baier: that makes grades important for that.
• 15:40
  Rob Baier: what he was doing was, providing, an assessment score on what they know in that moment, that can be improved on and should be improved on as you continue practicing that skill over time.
• 15:52
  Rob Baier: it, like
• 15:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: so, okay.
• 15:55
  Rob Baier: what he was thinking about, right.
• 15:56
  Rob Baier: And like, I, I didn't get to dive too much into that, but for me, a world without grades, like, I don't know what it would look like.
• 16:04
  Rob Baier: I think it's more out of feedback and like knowing where they, where students are and what they know and what they're capable of doing.
• 16:10
  Rob Baier: Like, like let's think about like, And like we're adulting right now.
• 16:13
  Rob Baier: Like we are in the middle of adulting.
• 16:14
  Rob Baier: That's what we're trying to do, right?
• 16:17
  Rob Baier: This whole
• 16:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what does that mean?
• 16:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like living life as an adult?
• 16:20
  Rob Baier: adult.
• 16:20
  Rob Baier: Like it's, that's not the fantasy land that kids are in.
• 16:23
  Rob Baier: Like we
• 16:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 16:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah,
• 16:26
  Rob Baier: of adulting.
• 16:26
  Rob Baier: Like I, I'm married with three kids.
• 16:29
  Rob Baier: That's adulting.
• 16:29
  Rob Baier: Like, that's, and,
• 16:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: but I'm not married with three kids.
• 16:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Am I still adulting?
• 16:34
  Rob Baier: Adulting because you are grinding with, with your, your band.
• 16:37
  Rob Baier: You're going on tour, you're, you have books, you are speaking engagements.
• 16:41
  Rob Baier: Like you're doing all the things.
• 16:43
  Rob Baier: You know what you're not doing?
• 16:44
  Rob Baier: Worrying about like, okay, oh, I'm going to eat, you know, these meals, I'm gonna go hang out with my friends all the time.
• 16:51
  Rob Baier: I'm gonna, I have no bills.
• 16:53
  Rob Baier: I have nothing to pay for.
• 16:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 16:56
  Rob Baier: very kid oriented.
• 16:58
  Rob Baier: Remember those days?
• 16:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like we're responsible for caring of ourselves.
• 17:01
  Rob Baier: It's the worst.
• 17:02
  Rob Baier: it's the worst.
• 17:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 17:06
  Rob Baier: Okay.
• 17:06
  Rob Baier: So, so in the, in the adult world, like we don't receive grades, like
• 17:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 17:14
  Rob Baier: receive feedback, like,
• 17:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 17:17
  Rob Baier: feedback then we learn from our feedback, like feedback that's provided.
• 17:21
  Rob Baier: When you and I present, we will receive like feedback, whether it's through social media or somebody emailing us, or like, I always put up a QR code so that way they can provide me, you know, feedback in the moment to what they like, what they didn't like, like, then I learned from it.
• 17:36
  Rob Baier: Within feedback, like we learn as adults, so like why are we giving kids like the status grade as opposed to like valuable feedback that could learn, you know, lean into something.
• 17:47
  Rob Baier: Like, I also think you know, people who sell things on online, uh, whether it's through like Etsy or like Amazon or wherever, like wherever you're selling Facebook marketplace, um, if you're doing any of those things, like you get feedback, people are
• 18:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you got grades also.
• 18:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: You got, yeah, but you also got a five star, you got a star system.
• 18:05
  Rob Baier: okay, that's a star system.
• 18:06
  Rob Baier: Is that a grade that's not really a status symbol.
• 18:08
  Rob Baier: It's like, Hey, you did
• 18:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why isn't that a grade?
• 18:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hold on a second.
• 18:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's out of five.
• 18:13
  Rob Baier: a grade that's more of like,
• 18:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well define A grade.
• 18:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, I'm sorry.
• 18:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: We should really have started with what is Define A grade then.
• 18:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's a grade?
• 18:20
  Rob Baier: I, I think a grade is more, of like a status thing at this point, like the stars are more like based on I think that's feedback on, like it's a review of, of you and your process.
• 18:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hard disagree because if somebody goes to look at like at, okay, you know what, actually this brings up a very good point.
• 18:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause you know what really grinds my gears and I don't understand, you know what I don't understand is when people say, we've gotten rid of grading.
• 18:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: We did this in Canada last year, in BC.
• 18:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: We've gotten rid of grading.
• 18:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: So now students only get a number between one and four, that's a fucking grade.
• 18:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: And all the parents are like, okay, so they've gotten rid of like a, B, C 90 80.
• 19:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm still looking for the one to four.
• 19:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I would agree that I would also add, when you go to Amazon or Google or something, you look for something with the highest rating to tell you how good that thing is.
• 19:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: How is that not a grade?
• 19:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's the difference?
• 19:16
  Rob Baier: That's a good question.
• 19:17
  Rob Baier: know what really grinds my gears?
• 19:19
  Rob Baier: no,
• 19:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: What
• 19:23
  Rob Baier: I, I actually, this is, um, this is a very nuanced conversation and I, I don't see myself as a grading expert at all.
• 19:29
  Rob Baier: Okay.
• 19:30
  Rob Baier: I wanna be very
• 19:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Totally.
• 19:31
  Rob Baier: transparent with that.
• 19:33
  Rob Baier: So I don't like,
• 19:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 19:35
  Rob Baier: I, I, I would much rather us have a, continue the conversation on what is a grade, let's define a grade like are, are five star ratings a grade.
• 19:43
  Rob Baier: Like, that's like, I would rather have a conversation with around that than, know, anything else about like, oh, you don't know what grades are.
• 19:53
  Rob Baier: No, I don't wanna talk about that.
• 19:54
  Rob Baier: But I think we need to really focus on like, okay, like we are giving star ratings, right?
• 19:59
  Rob Baier: The uber Lyft, like, like we get star
• 20:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 20:04
  Rob Baier: on whatever, but else are we giving feedback?
• 20:08
  Rob Baier: So maybe, maybe what we're unpacking here is that A grade, when you have a report card, whatever, there's no feedback to it
• 20:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 20:16
  Rob Baier: a number maybe attached to it.
• 20:17
  Rob Baier: Like, Hey, you have a 98 A.
• 20:19
  Rob Baier: Okay, great.
• 20:20
  Rob Baier: What does that mean?
• 20:21
  Rob Baier: You got an A?
• 20:22
  Rob Baier: if I have a five star rating or let, let's say I have a four and a half star rating.
• 20:27
  Rob Baier: Well, why do I not have a five?
• 20:28
  Rob Baier: Oh, let's look.
• 20:29
  Rob Baier: And you can actually see like comments and you can see things like that.
• 20:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yep.
• 20:32
  Rob Baier: I think that's different.
• 20:33
  Rob Baier: And this might, you know what I actually think.
• 20:36
  Rob Baier: Maybe I'll start doing like star ratings, for my presentations when I do presentations, like have somebody rate me like, well zero to five stars, and then provide feedback just like I'm a an Uber driver or a Lyft driver.
• 20:49
  Rob Baier: And, and then like, maybe I'll create an app.
• 20:51
  Rob Baier: Maybe this is my million dollar idea where I'll create an app for educators, for, uh, people who are presenting that if they want feedback and they wanna learn more, like, because like, let's be honest, I've seen a lot of presentations in schools.
• 21:04
  Rob Baier: We should probably have a star rating.
• 21:06
  Rob Baier: Like there should
• 21:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love this idea.
• 21:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: There should be a start.
• 21:10
  Rob Baier: I'm glad this is
• 21:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've started,
• 21:11
  Rob Baier: I said it first.
• 21:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: you've also started with maybe un grading to like now let, we don't receive grade as adults to be like, let's actually give more adults grades.
• 21:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what I'm hearing has happened.
• 21:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well,
• 21:24
  Rob Baier: no, I know.
• 21:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: I dunno.
• 21:25
  Rob Baier: No, no.
• 21:26
  Rob Baier: What I said was, we should give, we should give more star ratings with feedback because like, if you think about this, okay, let's think about this, okay, on the dating scene, I haven't dated in years, but on the dating scene,
• 21:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: David has David get in on this.
• 21:41
  Rob Baier: hop in on this.
• 21:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's so pissed.
• 21:45
  Rob Baier: I have, you know, like friends who, who have been dating and things like that, and somebody who just got back on the dating scene and, and
• 21:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh yeah.
• 21:52
  Rob Baier: they were like, would you be nice, like if, like, hey, you could pull up like this person's a, a five star person.
• 21:57
  Rob Baier: Like they're a great person.
• 21:58
  Rob Baier: Okay.
• 21:59
  Rob Baier: Hey, this person's a two and a half stars.
• 22:00
  Rob Baier: Why are they two and a half stars?
• 22:01
  Rob Baier: Massive red flags.
• 22:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Based on what?
• 22:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: What would you base that on?
• 22:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: You could see how that could go so wrong in the dating world.
• 22:08
  Rob Baier: could be, yeah, for
• 22:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're riffing we're
• 22:11
  Rob Baier: We're riffing on this.
• 22:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: that could,
• 22:12
  Rob Baier: I like,
• 22:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: that's a very per,
• 22:14
  Rob Baier: on some things, let's give stars on everything.
• 22:16
  Rob Baier: Right?
• 22:16
  Rob Baier: Like,
• 22:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay.
• 22:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 22:18
  Rob Baier: this
• 22:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's a hot take.
• 22:20
  Rob Baier: You ready?
• 22:20
  Rob Baier: This is where Debate Math comes into play.
• 22:22
  Rob Baier: So,
• 22:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was gonna say this would be great for Debate Math.
• 22:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is a grade is a,
• 22:27
  Rob Baier: well, I'm gonna go a different direction on this because reason why Chris and I do the podcast is like, we want to have reasoning, right?
• 22:33
  Rob Baier: And so whenever you say, you know, you, you, you're allowed to have opinions, but you should also have reasonings with this.
• 22:41
  Rob Baier: So provide reasoning.
• 22:42
  Rob Baier: So this is a healthy conversation about something that we started with, you know, like no grades to now, like we're doing five star ratings on dating profiles.
• 22:51
  Rob Baier: But, but with, with all of this, all I'm saying is like, we have tried to unpack and, and, and provide reasoning to, to everything that we were just talking about.
• 23:01
  Rob Baier: And when you asked me, well, aren't stars, you know, grades, wait a second, what are grades?
• 23:08
  Rob Baier: I think that's probably where we need to start.
• 23:11
  Rob Baier: From anything.
• 23:12
  Rob Baier: So what, what,
• 23:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I agree.
• 23:15
  Rob Baier: we have, we, there's probably gonna be, there are probably gonna be some, some misconceptions and misalignments on definitions.
• 23:22
  Rob Baier: Once we start to define something, then we build off of that definition.
• 23:27
  Rob Baier: We can, may still be, you know, on the opposite ends, but at least we have a clear definition on what it is we're talking about.
• 23:35
  Rob Baier: And we can take that part out.
• 23:37
  Rob Baier: So, yeah, so look at that full circle.
• 23:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's exactly, by the way, this is actually really full circle because right before you, I interviewed Pam Harris, and this is exactly what happened to us, is like halfway through a disagreement we were like, wait a second, we're defining this term the wrong way.
• 23:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: We were like, we've never even defined algorithm, like are we going by the same definition of what an algorithm even is.
• 23:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I actually do think this is really, really important.
• 24:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's true, I didn't mean for this whole thing to be about grading, but now you've really gotten me thinking.
• 24:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I just was like, we always have interesting discussions because it is this nuance thing.
• 24:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I've a, I actually think it's really important to be like, you kind of started this by being like, but what is assessment for?
• 24:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is it just to get a grade?
• 24:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then it's like, okay, but then what is a grade and what is that even for?
• 24:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I actually do think it's really interesting because now I'm hearing you be like, well, hold on a second.
• 24:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: The five star system is different because you're also getting feedback.
• 24:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I would, I would totally lobb it back to you and be like, okay, so as long as I'm giving someone a grade and I'm writing a comment next to it, is that okay?
• 24:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I don't think
• 24:40
  Rob Baier: I don't know if it's that simplistic.
• 24:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, it's not.
• 24:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's obviously not, but it's like, it's, it's an interesting idea of why are we giving grades?
• 24:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: It kind of seems like the reason we're doing it is because we know that our, our students are in a pipeline where grades will eventually be required because we as educators, our goal is for them to learn something, right?
• 25:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: That is our goal.
• 25:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: So if our goal is for them to learn something, does our grading system help or hinder that?
• 25:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, it kind of seems like it's hindering that because the whole thing is we give them a grade at the end of a quote unquote unit, and then we just move the fuck on.
• 25:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And we're grading where they are with a concept at a certain point in time with no, motivation, let's even say as educators to help them continue to master that concept later on.
• 25:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And no motivation for the student to continue to master that concept later on.
• 25:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because the unit's over, they're never gonna get tested on it again.
• 25:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what the fuck's the point?
• 25:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: So if our goal is for them to learn, the way we are grading, at the very least, seems to hinder that.
• 25:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it provides no feedback or information.
• 25:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because ideally in a world, a student would learn something, they would do whatever they would do, they would hand in their paper or whatever the assessment is, and we'd be able to say, all right, awesome.
• 25:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's how close you are to this.
• 25:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's what you need to work on.
• 25:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's la, la la, la, la, la, la.
• 26:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that would be the feedback they would get so they could continue to learn, which is the goal.
• 26:05
  Rob Baier: Yeah,
• 26:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did that make sense, what I said?
• 26:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think so.
• 26:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 26:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's like, obviously there's a, there's an issue here, but they're also stuck in this pipeline, so we don't know what to even do with them, because eventually they'll need a grade.
• 26:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think we just have to move on from this because we need to now talk to a grading expert who has the answers, and I guess we have to find this person.
• 26:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I'd like to even imagine, yeah,
• 26:23
  Rob Baier: was gonna say like, like this is exactly like where, like, this is why I'm on the fence with this.
• 26:28
  Rob Baier: Like there's, like you,
• 26:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: right.
• 26:30
  Rob Baier: whole conversation started because you said.
• 26:32
  Rob Baier: What, what are you on the fence on?
• 26:34
  Rob Baier: Like with like
• 26:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 26:36
  Rob Baier: and this conversation ex, that's exactly what like, I mean there's other, there are other things that I'm on the fence with, but that this is exactly why I am on the fence with it because
• 26:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 26:47
  Rob Baier: I think school to school, teacher to teacher, like in a building, teacher to teacher, there's a different definition for grades and what should be graded and and all of that.
• 26:56
  Rob Baier: And then there's also different definitions for assessment and what are
• 27:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 27:01
  Rob Baier: and whether it's formative assessment or summative assessment and, oh wait, let's not get into that.
• 27:06
  Rob Baier: Like what are formative assessments?
• 27:08
  Rob Baier: Well, that could be
• 27:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: We can't.
• 27:10
  Rob Baier: Oh, but this is a summative assessment, but I see it as formative.
• 27:13
  Rob Baier: Like there are so many nuances in education, which makes it incredibly hard to have a conversation like this and have a definitive answer.
• 27:22
  Rob Baier: Like, all this is gonna be doing is like allowing us to, to structure a way to have more reasons.
• 27:28
  Rob Baier: Which is great, then
• 27:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe that's an incredible goal though.
• 27:34
  Rob Baier: incredible goal, but then I love to always follow with action.
• 27:37
  Rob Baier: And in this moment
• 27:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 27:38
  Rob Baier: there, there aren't any actionable steps because it's gonna take way more than, know, a handful of people having this conversation, having general understanding.
• 27:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, it's true, but I would almost like, as we wrap up this particular convo and move to a new topic, I actually think there is an action because I think it can be so frustrating to feel like we're talking in circles and then being like, not that we're talking in circles, but being like, oh my God, we've talked about all this and there's no answer.
• 28:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: We crave an answer.
• 28:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: We crave a certain answer.
• 28:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: We want things to be black and white because it's so much easier.
• 28:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: And guess what?
• 28:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's not how the world is.
• 28:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're not black and white.
• 28:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think the coolest thing is that you and I can see all these shades of gray and we can say we're on the fence.
• 28:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Instead of just doubling down and saying, Nope, I'm sticking to this belief because I said it once.
• 28:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know?
• 28:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually think that's where the beauty is.
• 28:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And we are educators, so we should be constantly learning and questioning our beliefs.
• 28:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think an action at a point like this might be like, yeah, we're on the fence.
• 28:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're not really sure.
• 28:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: But one thing you and I have kind of come to is the most important part of the learning process when it comes to assessment is feedback.
• 28:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: So guess what?
• 28:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everyone, you gotta give your grades.
• 28:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cool, do it.
• 28:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you know what you can do.
• 28:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Also while you're giving grades, you can add a caveat to all of your students and be like, Hey look, I'm giving a grade because that's what I've gotta do in this moment.
• 28:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: But also I really actually wanna focus on the learning part.
• 28:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here is some useful feedback to go along with it.
• 28:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, like that is an action we can take and other actions we can take around grading as and assessment, depending on where you are, obviously we all have our own red tape, is you can allow, a lot of us have a bit of leeway to allow students to retake an assessment later down the line.
• 29:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, like I always use this example of being like a student fails a a test on common denominators.
• 29:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: They see a failed mark.
• 29:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: A month later they fail a test on adding fractions.
• 29:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: They see a failure.
• 29:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you know what they got right in that adding fractions test, they managed to do every single common denominator.
• 29:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they never get rewarded for it.
• 29:33
  Rob Baier: Yeah.
• 29:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 29:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because, because they never, so you could as a teacher be like, you know what, babe?
• 29:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I saw that you got all those common denominators, right?
• 29:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: What if you just take that common denominators test again now
• 29:43
  Rob Baier: Or,
• 29:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: anyways, okay.
• 29:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whatever.
• 29:45
  Rob Baier: or even, even more so for me, you know, they do well on the, on the common denominator test, you know, or adding common denominators.
• 29:54
  Rob Baier: And I look at that as like, okay, so like, what didn't they do well.
• 29:59
  Rob Baier: Didn't get the right answer?
• 30:01
  Rob Baier: Ok.
• 30:02
  Rob Baier: But look at the process.
• 30:03
  Rob Baier: Where are they struggling?
• 30:05
  Rob Baier: Okay, so instead of like an
• 30:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 30:06
  Rob Baier: C, D, maybe it's like a, hey, it's like three and a half stars be, and here's why.
• 30:11
  Rob Baier: Like, your process was really good.
• 30:13
  Rob Baier: You know, when you're doing, you know, conversions and trying to get those common denominators, like you made some, some mistakes, some calculation errors, which then made your answer incorrect at the end.
• 30:23
  Rob Baier: Oh my gosh.
• 30:25
  Rob Baier: As a student, excuse me, as a student, I'm like, oh, I made a mistake here.
• 30:30
  Rob Baier: I know what, what I did at the end.
• 30:32
  Rob Baier: Like, I know how to fix this.
• 30:33
  Rob Baier: opposed to sorry, you, you failed this.
• 30:36
  Rob Baier: Thank you.
• 30:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Totally.
• 30:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think the feedback is important and the feedback also shows our students that we believe they can improve.
• 30:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're not just slapping a grade down and saying, move on.
• 30:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're saying, I'm giving you feedback because I think you can take the feedback and then do something with it.
• 30:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I kind of wanna ask how you know, we, we talk about, this is a podcast about math trauma and math anxiety, how you think these current practices of assessment, or even the way we teach in a nons spiraled fashion, just unit after unit might contribute to math trauma in some students.
• 31:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you ever think about that?
• 31:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like how that might actually like cause math anxiety.
• 31:14
  Rob Baier: yeah, I actually have recently, because as, as I, this, that Netflix analogy is one that, you know, internally at Innovamat we've, we've talked about a lot and it's, I think Albert's the one that kind of came up with it and it makes sense.
• 31:25
  Rob Baier: And you know, for me, as, as I started to reflect on unit teaching, you know, if a student does really well at the end of a unit on a unit test, three months later, you know, they have a cumulative exam, maybe it's like a midterm.
• 31:44
  Rob Baier: And they bomb the midterm.
• 31:46
  Rob Baier: And the part that they really struggle with is that unit one stuff.
• 31:51
  Rob Baier: And now you're thinking like, second, I, maybe I'm stupid at math.
• 31:57
  Rob Baier: Like I knew it at one point and I forgot it already.
• 31:59
  Rob Baier: Maybe I'm just not good at this.
• 32:01
  Rob Baier: Like, why can't I remember it?
• 32:02
  Rob Baier: Well, you can't remember it because it's not your fault.
• 32:04
  Rob Baier: Like you, you learned it in a, in a block, like a block, like a unit, and then you never use it again.
• 32:13
  Rob Baier: Like, you didn't, like continue practicing those skills over and over
• 32:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 32:19
  Rob Baier: right?
• 32:19
  Rob Baier: Like, like I'm pretty, so, for instance, growing up, my dad showed me how to change oil out of a, of a car.
• 32:29
  Rob Baier: He, he said, I need, you need to know how to do this.
• 32:32
  Rob Baier: And he did this whole thing.
• 32:34
  Rob Baier: He showed me once I helped him, once.
• 32:36
  Rob Baier: have not done that again in my entire life.
• 32:40
  Rob Baier: And.
• 32:41
  Rob Baier: of fact, I would rather pay somebody to do it because I'm gonna screw this up.
• 32:45
  Rob Baier: And if I were to do this now, I mean, I'm pretty sure I could, could empty the oil and then put it
• 32:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would not trust you.
• 32:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whatever you're doing with your face, I would not let you near my car.
• 33:01
  Rob Baier: would look at, look, I, I wouldn't let me near your car either or mine or anybody's.
• 33:06
  Rob Baier: If I, if somebody's like, Hey, I want you to change the oil on my car, I'd be like, all right, your keys.
• 33:11
  Rob Baier: And then I would take it to somebody and have them do it and come back.
• 33:14
  Rob Baier: But the, the, what I'm, the point I'm trying to get to is like, I was shown that in a moment, and then when I needed to help the next time was able to do it in that moment, I have not practiced that skill rest of my life.
• 33:30
  Rob Baier: I was a teenager then.
• 33:31
  Rob Baier: I am at least double the age that I was when he shared that with me.
• 33:37
  Rob Baier: There's no way in the world I'm gonna remember that.
• 33:40
  Rob Baier: Now, on the other side of that, like, I love to cook.
• 33:43
  Rob Baier: I love to, I love to cook.
• 33:45
  Rob Baier: I love to, like what something I, I do a lot for my kids 'cause I have a, a, a Blackstone Grill is I love to make like hibachi make hibachi
• 33:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 33:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: What?
• 33:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Invite us over.
• 33:57
  Rob Baier: like rice and, and shrimp.
• 33:58
  Rob Baier: But it's something that like, I've been crafting and trying to work on the flavors and stuff, and I keep
• 34:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 34:04
  Rob Baier: I keep getting better at it.
• 34:05
  Rob Baier: And, it's to the point now where like my middle son will say, Hey, I, I want hibachi tonight.
• 34:12
  Rob Baier: And like, we'll go get this stuff.
• 34:14
  Rob Baier: don't look at a recipe anymore.
• 34:16
  Rob Baier: It's something I know because I practiced it overover time, but I also failed fixed, failed and fixed, failed and fixed.
• 34:24
  Rob Baier: And I was able to
• 34:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Rupture and repair
• 34:27
  Rob Baier: Yeah.
• 34:27
  Rob Baier: So if we wanna talk like a, like a trauma, like if somebody's like, Hey, here's, here's the keys to my car.
• 34:33
  Rob Baier: Can you, can you change the oil?
• 34:35
  Rob Baier: Yeah.
• 34:35
  Rob Baier: It's, it's like a, a a, a flight or fight response a little bit.
• 34:39
  Rob Baier: I'm like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing.
• 34:40
  Rob Baier: Going back to math, same thing's true for like units.
• 34:44
  Rob Baier: you don't practice those skills or tie those to other concepts within, and it's just like, Hey, here's this.
• 34:51
  Rob Baier: Let's move on.
• 34:52
  Rob Baier: Here's this,
• 34:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 34:53
  Rob Baier: And then, you know, by the end of the year and the elementary grades, they're like, we didn't get to geometry.
• 34:58
  Rob Baier: Third grade comes along.
• 34:59
  Rob Baier: We didn't get to geometry because that's unit 14.
• 35:02
  Rob Baier: Well, then kids get to 4th grade, and they go I didn't get, sorry, didn't get to geometry.
• 35:07
  Rob Baier: 'Cause that's unit 15.
• 35:08
  Rob Baier: Oh, then they get to fifth grade and the teacher goes, you don't know what a quadrilateral is?
• 35:13
  Rob Baier: Because third grade and fourth grade, they didn't learn it.
• 35:17
  Rob Baier: And then in
• 35:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well,
• 35:19
  Rob Baier: and this,
• 35:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay.
• 35:20
  Rob Baier: standard take, but then in fifth grade, now that fifth grade student, going to trauma, that 5th grade student's going, I must be dumb.
• 35:25
  Rob Baier: 'cause I'm like, that teacher said I'm supposed to know the quadrilateral is by fifth grade.
• 35:29
  Rob Baier: That's not their fault.
• 35:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, there's two different things here because I mean that that ladder example is like they literally didn't learn something, but your first example of mastering something in a moment, then never revisiting it, then being asked to do it and thinking to yourself, I don't remember it.
• 35:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually love that you brought this up because it's so funny you say this.
• 35:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was literally just talking to Raj about this on the podcast.
• 35:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: We were talking about cars as well, and I was saying, I learned how to change a flat tire once, right?
• 36:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, and I, I did it.
• 36:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I learned how to do it and I did it.
• 36:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have not used that skill since, and I don't know how to do it.
• 36:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now.
• 36:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's happened, and I bet you there's a phenomenon for this.
• 36:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanna look it up after.
• 36:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's almost made me feel stupider than if I had never learned how to fix the flat tire in the first place.
• 36:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because now my story is I knew how to do it once and now I don't.
• 36:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which means I can't remember things.
• 36:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I, it was so foggy.
• 36:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was so long ago.
• 36:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe it was too hard.
• 36:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe I didn't really know how to do it.
• 36:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now my story is about my ability to learn things as opposed to being able to say, well, no one ever showed it to me.
• 36:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe I could learn it.
• 36:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I actually think this is a very interesting point.
• 36:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: That we teach students in this way in which they get this taste of understanding something, but then later can't remember it because we've taught in units instead of spiraling.
• 36:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: It almost adds to their story of, well, I was never really good at it, if I can't do it now.
• 37:00
  Rob Baier: Can I add
• 37:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I actually think that's, yeah, please,
• 37:03
  Rob Baier: the
• 37:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: yeah.
• 37:03
  Rob Baier: other layer to that, and this is bringing it back to what we were talking about at the beginning.
• 37:06
  Rob Baier: If they're not able to not only practice the skill, but to reason and be able to share and have conversations and be able to process, that's another blocker for them that, oh, okay, I didn't, I don't remember this from before, but also like, they didn't get to practice or like process through, you know, going back to where I was talking about, you know, the weekly shows, the reason we were able to process that was through conversation and reasoning,
• 37:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 37:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right, right.
• 37:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 37:35
  Rob Baier: like, I, I really believe that like, like there needs to be a lot more reasoning and processing, but also like, we can't just learn something and move on and, and like think it's not connected, which I guess, you know, takes us to an even bigger issue with, with math education and in general is like, we allow that because it's so standards driven.
• 37:53
  Rob Baier: And high stakes testing still.
• 37:56
  Rob Baier: And, we allow that and it's, and we, we set up, um, a sandbox that we're trying to play in that has rules that nobody really likes.
• 38:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is this just a, well, it's because it's always been done this way, or do you think that there's a conspiracy going on why we're keeping it this way?
• 38:12
  Rob Baier: I think a large part of it is it's always been done this way and it's something that's comfortable.
• 38:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 38:16
  Rob Baier: years ago it was the race to calculus, which is still kind of a thing, but it was a race to calculus.
• 38:21
  Rob Baier: But why did the race to calculus even occur?
• 38:24
  Rob Baier: Well, it's because we were, was a space race and we were trying to get to the moon.
• 38:29
  Rob Baier: And
• 38:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: What, is that an analogy, or is that real?
• 38:33
  Rob Baier: real.
• 38:33
  Rob Baier: And, and the United,
• 38:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, oh, really?
• 38:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Actually.
• 38:35
  Rob Baier: United, like the, like the United States, we started to really push calculus and race to get every kid to take calculus because we had, basically we were trying to get to the moon before any other
• 38:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: When was this?
• 38:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you think people have actually been to the moon or do you think it's all fabricated?
• 38:56
  Rob Baier: next que
• 38:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: wondering.
• 38:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 39:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have to, we have to wrap up.
• 39:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know how we've been talking for this long, but this is just like gone in the oddest, but I'm so into this direction to be honest, because it's brought up a lot of really interesting things.
• 39:13
  Rob Baier: I am so excited to see how David's gonna edit this.
• 39:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I dunno how he's gonna do it.
• 39:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is definitely, he's got his work cut out for him.
• 39:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll tell you that.
• 39:21
  Rob Baier: very
• 39:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like,
• 39:22
  Rob Baier: probably mad at me, but I, I'm not around him.
• 39:24
  Rob Baier: So.
• 39:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really do, honestly, the thing I really love about you, it's, it's, I said this at the beginning and then it just showed through our conversation that, you and I love, we, we are not scared of nuance.
• 39:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're not the type of people who are like, no, I need to just have a right answer and know, and I honestly think that's what makes you such a valuable educator and such a valuable, like coach for other teachers because you can see all the different perspectives and ways to do things.
• 39:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I know in your work with Innovamat, you have a way of teaching math that honors a lot of what you're talking about.
• 39:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is that correct?
• 39:57
  Rob Baier: True.
• 39:57
  Rob Baier: Yes.
• 39:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: If there was a teacher listening to this right now who was like, you know, I really, this spiraling thing sounds cool, but I don't even know where to start.
• 40:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: What advice do you have for them?
• 40:07
  Rob Baier: Call us.
• 40:07
  Rob Baier: No.
• 40:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Call Innovamat.
• 40:11
  Rob Baier: I mean, I, I, I think that there's a, there's a lot of research out there and I, I encourage anybody, whenever somebody tries to throw research in your face, read it yourself and then also try to like actively seek counter arguments, that way you can formalize the ideas yourself.
• 40:28
  Rob Baier: I think start there.
• 40:29
  Rob Baier: So, so read about what it is, how you could do it in terms of resources, like, I mean, truthfully, like, as a company,
• 40:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Gimme something quick.
• 40:37
  Rob Baier: there's
• 40:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Something quick they can do.
• 40:39
  Rob Baier: well, there's not really anything quick you can do.
• 40:41
  Rob Baier: Have to
• 40:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 40:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fair.
• 40:43
  Rob Baier: You have to understand, like, I would, there's nothing quick I, but you need to dive into like how students actually learn.
• 40:49
  Rob Baier: There's a lot of research there and especially with like learning progressions or learning trajectories, like dive into that.
• 40:57
  Rob Baier: Uh,
• 40:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you guys have a whole curriculum, right?
• 40:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like if a teacher was like, look, I don't wanna read the science behind this, I believe everything you said on Vanessa's amazing podcast, I just wanna do it, and I'm a grade three math teacher.
• 41:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can they just like get this from you?
• 41:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can they get a lesson on how to, they can get a whole resource and how to teach their grade three curriculum in a spiraled way?
• 41:16
  Rob Baier: that'd be a stretch, but we could try.
• 41:17
  Rob Baier: Yeah.
• 41:18
  Rob Baier: I, there it's not easy.
• 41:20
  Rob Baier: This isn't an easy, like, there's, there's not an easy answer for this one, to be honest.
• 41:24
  Rob Baier: I wish I could tell you other than like finding spiral curriculums that are already out there.
• 41:28
  Rob Baier: There's not an easy way, because most curriculums are, are written in unit format.
• 41:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's, okay, so we don't even have to put this in, but now I'm just curious.
• 41:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is a Innovamats curriculum like?
• 41:40
  Rob Baier: Spiral.
• 41:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, so I'm trying to, hello?
• 41:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: So can you just tell people to just call you up?
• 41:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're like, it's impossible.
• 41:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's so hard.
• 41:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: No
• 41:49
  Rob Baier: then you said, oh, just call you.
• 41:51
  Rob Baier: But what's something easy?
• 41:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 41:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I dunno what part of this is gonna be kept on.
• 41:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's trying to, not self promote, but he, what we're saying here is Innovamat.
• 41:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is not a pitch for a Innovamat, but there is a resource out there that has all the, all the grades spiraled for you.
• 42:04
  Rob Baier: I will tell you that, okay.
• 42:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is this reverse psychology?
• 42:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is this like, don't call me, don't whatever.
• 42:10
  Rob Baier: No, no.
• 42:12
  Rob Baier: Listen, like, so yeah.
• 42:13
  Rob Baier: I, I, this, I was not intending to like, have any type of self-promotion or promotion whatsoever.
• 42:19
  Rob Baier: With that said, at, at a Innovamat, at a Innovamat,
• 42:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Don't cut any of this.
• 42:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's so good.
• 42:28
  Rob Baier: We have a spiral, a learning trajectory, that is based off of how students learn mathematics.
• 42:34
  Rob Baier: We have partnered and are endorsed by Peter Liljedahl, Vanessa's best friend
• 42:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, here we go.
• 42:42
  Rob Baier: and our core curriculum is called Thinking Math.
• 42:44
  Rob Baier: We get kids to think more in math class in a, in a way that they retain more over time.
• 42:51
  Rob Baier: And we also have intervention that is used by Chicago Public Schools and other really big schools around the country.
• 42:58
  Rob Baier: yeah.
• 42:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: appreciate you not wanting to self-promote.
• 43:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I also didn't want you to self-promote, but honestly I'm also like, you know, spiraling sounds really, really interesting and very beneficial and it's cool to know there's a resource out there.
• 43:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm, you know, that you kind of played this well because it, now it sounds like I'm forcing you to sell yourself and you had no hand in the matter.
• 43:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's smart, it's.
• 43:18
  Rob Baier: It's not, that is not what I tried to do though.
• 43:21
  Rob Baier: The only thing I did intentionally and I can't wait, okay, David, keep this part in.
• 43:26
  Rob Baier: I am so thankful to be on this podcast, and I hope that this clip right here shows that Vanessa made me put her book at the top and then Chris's book at the bottom or in the middle.
• 43:42
  Rob Baier: Uh, no, don't, you can cut all that, but
• 43:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: We love you.
• 43:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, final two questions.
• 43:50
  Rob Baier: questions.
• 43:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: has been so fun.
• 43:51
  Rob Baier: ahead.
• 43:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, rapid fire questions.
• 43:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: If there's one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?
• 43:59
  Rob Baier: Get students to talk more about their reasons for why they believe, what they believe for an answer, for a process, anything like that.
• 44:08
  Rob Baier: Like hear what they're thinking that way we can address like what their conceptions are or misconceptions are.
• 44:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love it.
• 44:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And number two, someone's like, cool, cool, cool.
• 44:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, but I'm just not really a math person.
• 44:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Doesn't really matter how you teach me.
• 44:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm just not a math person.
• 44:24
  Rob Baier: I typically have a conversation with them about what they do for, for work.
• 44:28
  Rob Baier: talk about like their life and, and things like that.
• 44:30
  Rob Baier: And then literally dissect how they're doing math all the time.
• 44:34
  Rob Baier: so,
• 44:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 44:36
  Rob Baier: clearly a math person 'cause you literally do it all the time.
• 44:39
  Rob Baier: And that's from reasoning, from organizing, from estimating when you go to the grocery store to estimating your Amazon cart as you're clicking through all the things you wanna buy to, you know, all of those things, you are doing math all the time.
• 44:53
  Rob Baier: I'm not a math person is a bs thing to say.
• 44:56
  Rob Baier: And on top of that, you coming at, at anybody, any educator, saying that common core and, how the standards are, like all this new math and you know, I, why aren't they, they teach in the way that I learned, my question to you is, did you like math?
• 45:11
  Rob Baier: And do you want us to still teach it the way that you learned it?
• 45:17
  Rob Baier: So you're saying you don't like math, you hate math, math.
• 45:20
  Rob Baier: Isn't your thing, math isn't your jam.
• 45:21
  Rob Baier: But you want us to teach your kids the same way.
• 45:24
  Rob Baier: That's crazy.
• 45:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Drop the fucking mic.
• 45:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Go off King.
• 45:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And on that note, that's a, why do I keep saying that's a wrap?
• 45:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've said it like four times.
• 45:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, Rob,
• 45:38
  Rob Baier: Yeah,
• 45:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: been a pleasure.
• 45:40
  Rob Baier: Vanessa.
• 45:40
  Rob Baier: Thank you.
• 45:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: See you guys.
• 45:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I told you I was not lying.
• 45:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Rob is the real deal.
• 45:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm still like not over this whole space race calculus thing.
• 45:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think it's so crazy that our education system is still like mostly based around society's needs from literally decades ago.
• 45:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: If learning should be about the future, why is education so stuck in the past?
• 46:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you know what, I'm also really sitting here thinking about assessment.
• 46:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know it's a hot topic, but to me it's just this other thing that we do the same way we always have and like haven't adjusted to be like, wait a second, what exactly are we doing here and why are we doing it?
• 46:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you're thinking some of these same thoughts, please share this episode.
• 46:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Send it to a teacher who's struggling to connect, assessment to practice, or a colleague who's in the process of rethinking the why behind their instructional practices, or literally anyone who's ever thought, but why are we doing this stuff and how can I be a part of the solution?
• 46:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And since I'm all fired up about assessment right now, here is your Math Therapy homework.
• 46:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: This week I want you to reflect on the way you use assessment in the classroom and consider what it is you want to be assessing and whether or not the form of assessment that you're using actually as assesses that thing.
• 46:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm curious what you'll discover.
• 46:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: If it's a yes, how does that make you feel?
• 46:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: If it's a no, how does that make you feel?
• 46:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: And is there some tweak you could be making?
• 46:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you guys know the drill.
• 46:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Text the podcast, DM me on Instagram at The Math Guru, or email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca.
• 47:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Links are all in the show notes, and I wanna know what this brought up for you.
• 47:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love hearing from you guys.
• 47:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: And finally, remember my book, Math Therapy is now available on.
• 47:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: All audiobook platforms narrated by me and my Math Therapy merch line is out, and I released a special little drop in the middle of my tour.
• 47:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: So head to maththerapy.com/merch and get yourself something cute or maybe get something cute for one of your besties because the holidays are fast approaching.
• 47:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And guys, Math Therapy is produced and edited by the one and only David Kochberg who's also in my band, Goodnight Sunrise.
• 47:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I bring that up because our theme music that you're listening to is by our band, Goodnight Sunrise.
• 47:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can find new episodes weekly of Math Therapy because we are now a weekly podcast.
• 47:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what's happening next week?
• 47:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who knows?
• 47:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're gonna have to listen to find out.
• 47:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 47:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 47:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Chris has picked up.
• 47:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay.
• 47:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry.
• 47:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm just recording the intro to Rob's session and we are having a debate about, we're having a debate, there we go.
• 48:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: is it Rob Baier or Baier?
• 48:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, are you recording this, David?
• 48:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have Chris Luzniak.
• 48:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is it Luzniak or Luzniak?
• 48:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is it Luzniak?
• 48:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You go with either?
• 48:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right.
• 48:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 48:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: David is yelling in my ear.
• 48:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: "He said that when you interviewed him, Vanessa." Okay, I love you.
• 48:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry.
• 48:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know I wanna talk to you more, but I have to record this.
• 48:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you for coming in Clutch.
• 48:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Rob Baier.
• 48:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, there we go.
• 48:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, Rob is calling me back.
• 48:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Rob is calling me Rob, I've got, I got Rob on the horn.
• 48:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I got Rob on the horn.
• 48:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, here's Rob.
• 48:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: what I called you for is I'm currently recording the intro to your session and I said, Rob Baier and David yelled, it's Rob Baier.
• 48:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we called you and you didn't pick up, so then we called Chris Luzniak.
• 48:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're recording all of this.
• 48:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is amazing.
• 48:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is gonna be the best intro ever to our unhinged episode.
• 48:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 48:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have to go.
• 48:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have to go.
• 48:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 48:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love you.
• 48:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 48:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye bye.
• 48:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 48:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 48:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 48:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 48:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 48:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can use that however you want.
• 48:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 48:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here we go.