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Political Prisoner Denied Access To His Children - With Laura Towler · UK Column Radio

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Hello, this is Charles Mallett UK column. I have with me today Laura
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Towler. Now, Laura is going to speak about the case of her husband,
0:17
Sam Milia, who was imprisoned earlier this year for offenses that were deemed
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to be stirring up or inciting racial hatred and criminal damage through the provision of
0:31
stickers with messages that were deemed to be of nationalist nature. And Laura's going
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to explain a bit more about the background to this before we get into some
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of the significant changes that have occurred in Sam's life, but obviously hers and
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her families as well. So Laura, thank you very much indeed for joining
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me, and obviously UK column has covered this in brief admittedly back in January
0:57
and in March of this year. But could you just set the scene giving
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a quick update on defenses that Sam has been convicted of, but specifically what
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it was that the judge actually said or gave direction to the jury on and
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effectively sort of how things have got to where they've got now. Yeah,
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Well, first of all, it's nice to be introduced here and thank you
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for covering the case as well. I have been following it on UK column.
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I think, you know, anyone who raises publicity about this and let
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us a population know how bad law is in England. I'm very thankful for
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that, So thank you. Yes. So Sam was arrested three years ago
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and then two years later he was charged, and then it went to court
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this February and he was found guilty. He was found guilty of distributing written
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material with the intention to stir up racial hatred. So the important part of
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that is intention, So they're not saying that racial hatred has been stirred up.
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They actually said that every single sticker was league. There were three hundred
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and ten different stickers, they're all legal. They also said the truth is
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no defense in court, so if you can argue that the stickers are true,
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that's not a defense. And they also said that zero crimes had been
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committed as a result of these stickers, which sounds like to me they're arguing
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that racial hatred wasn't stirred up because no crimes were committed. But Sam was
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convicted of his intentions when he published these stickers on the internet, so a
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literal thought crime. They didn't actually have any evidence of his intentions, you
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know, no messages saying I intend to do this, or I hate this
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group, or will be it's my new Van Baver. So what they instead
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did was say built a profile on sam by cherry picking a few text messages.
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They read through tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of text messages
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that he'd sent over the course of five years, and cherry picked four where
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he'd used racial slurs. None of those were used in anger towards someone of
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another race, that were used in private conversations in Joe. They also cherry
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picked a couple of other things Hitler, a picture of Hitler which was in
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a garage on another street that Samony's friends exercised in during lockdown. It was
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a funny picture of Hitler. It was something to do with Hitler doing pull
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ups. It wasn't a serious picture. They cherry picked that and a book
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that I own by Oswald Mosley, and they said that these were key,
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key pieces of evidence that surmise sam Meelia's ideology. They never explained what his
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ideology is, and that was enough for them to convict him, and he
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was sentenced to two years in prison. He went down on the first of
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March and the judge ordered that he will serve at the most one year in
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custody. So the latest that he will be released is February next year,
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but hopefully before then. Well that's absolutely let's hope. So but evidently things
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have not turned out as expected. I mean, first of all, that
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the will come back to it. Actually, but the think, the expectation
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or the hope was that his sentence would be suspended. So we'll come back
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to that book. But critically, what I would like you to do now
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is to describe what has changed in the last week with specific regard to the
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children and contact with the children, and if you are able to give any
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reason or any inkling as to why this has happened. Yeah, well Sam's
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been in prison so far for three months and he was originally in Leeds.
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We had full contact and every week we'd take the children to go visit him.
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It's a safe, like a kid friendly environment environment with toys and you
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know staff that play games with the kids and stuff, so it was quite
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a nice environment. They were visiting him every week, writing letters to him,
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speaking to him on the phone. I was sending photographs, so there
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were no problems at all. So this was in Leeds when I say,
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writing letters. Our children are two years old and one month old, so
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obviously I'm writing letters and you know, pretending to be them and stuff.
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But it was absolute. They find there were no problem, and then he
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got moved to Hull, and so Hall is like an hour and a half
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away from us, so it's not too bad. I was just thankful that
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he hadn't been moved down south or something, because it's still in Yorkshire,
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but it's further away, which is a bit annoying. But in Hull,
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for the first week, everything was fine. We had a visit with the
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kids, speaking to him on the phone, no problems at all. And
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then all of a sudden, letters and emails started getting rejected and sent back
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to us saying child protection issues. And to cut a long story short,
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because it's been this big kuffuffle over the last couple of weeks. Basically,
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they've classified Sam as a PPRC, which is a person posing risk to children.
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And when I asked them to clarify why Sam had been classified as a
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PPRC, they said, and I quote racist literature, insignia and books and
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racist and offensive attitudes, so that's why he's a risk to children apparently,
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so they've stopped contact with his children. Not only that, but they I'm
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not allowed He's not allowed any photographs of his children, and I'm not even
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allowed to mention his children to him on the phone. If I do that,
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they can ban me as a contact. So I mean, I can
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kind of understand the contact thing, completely disagree with it. It's not a
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risk to his kids, his daughters one month old and two years old.
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It can't. It can't brainwash them into racism or whatever. But I can.
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I can kind of understand the contact thing, even though it's wrong.
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But I don't understand why he's not allowed photographs of them or why I'm not
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allowed to mention them to him, because how is he going to brainwash a
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child down a photograph? Or if I say, oh, you know,
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your daughter was learning the potty today, how is it? How is that
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gonna? And whenever you ask him and you say what is the issue here,
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they go hidden harm And then you go can you can you explain what
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you mean by hidden harm? And they just go hidden harm And then you're
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like, how can how can he having a photograph of his daughter cause harm
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to our daughter or anyone else? And they're just like hidden Hart. They're
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like MPCs, like robots. I don't even think they understand their own rules.
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So at the moment, basically Sam has had to submit an application form
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for every child that he wants to have contact with. So he's done our
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two daughters, and we have to go through an assessment with Children's Services to
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see if Sam is any risk to his children. I'm hoping that they'll just
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take one look at it and throw it out and say this is ridiculous.
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You know, even if you did have a dangerous ideology, your children are
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too young to understand it. But I don't know how long it's going to
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take, you know, in public sector that's so underfunded and understaffed, I
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wonder if they've got bigger priorities and they might be dealing with actual serious,
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you know, offenders and stuff, and Sam might just go to the bottom
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of the pile. But I'm hoping it'll get sorted out over the next week
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or so. Yeah, well absolutely, let's hope. So I think you've
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made a very important point there about whether or not the people who are dealing
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with this actually understand what it is that they're doing and why. And I
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think it's worth going into a little bit more of the detail because you did
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quote and you've put it on your telegram channel. I'm just going to read
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a bit from it to see, you know, because I think the audience
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need to understand exactly what it is that's being said and where there's really any
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coherence to this. So your response starts with having carefully considered all aspects of
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your complaint on behalf of HMPPS, and having reviewed this issue as above,
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I've been unable to uphold your complaint for the following reasons. Mister Amelia has
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been assessed as posing a risk of serious harm to children using the HMPPS approved
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Risk assessment tool OASIS Offender Assessment System. Safeguarding alerts have been placed onto probation
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systems and as a result, are also placed onto prison systems. This is
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as a result of his offending behavior, and it does not state he poses
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a direct risk of serious harm to children, but by the children being exposed
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to posters, insignia, literature and attitudes assessed as racist and offensive. So
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you quoted that last bit there, but in the first instance, they are
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saying that there is a risk posed, and then they're going on to say
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that there isn't. So I think you're absolutely right to bring out that issue.
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And the other thing that I just wanted to go on to is the
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guidance the Public Protection Manual updated in January twenty twenty four, which has a
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laws a chapter about person posing a risk to children, And I want to
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get your feedback on this because, as you say, Sam was in Leeds
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prison for three months and indeed in Hull for a little while before this actually
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happened, and yet here we are Chapter five B subsection one point twenty five
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Potential pprcs must be identified quickly and risk assessed to establish if there is a
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continuing risk to children. The relevant notifications must be made to children's services in
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the prisoner's home area. So that I think there's a question that falls out
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of that which would be the difference between Leads and Hull. And then we've
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got a bit about request, but then we have specifically about personal photo graphs
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one point twenty seven pprcs or potential pprcs presenting a sexual risks to risks to
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children must have access to their personal photographs as children considered using the principles in
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this chapter. So going back to your question about whether or not they understand
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what they're dealing with. I think that's a very very valid question. But
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also to what extent do you think that this might be something that leads had
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simply not considered, and that as part of the move to Hull, this
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has suddenly been you know, had a sort of light shone on it in
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a way that it hadn't been before. Is that possible? Yeah, Well,
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from that paragraph too that you just read out, it sounds like Phibation
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Services put this onto Sam's file, and then that means it also goes onto
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the prison file talking about pastors, insignia literature, that's our stuff from the
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trial. So I think this stuff went onto his file as soon as he
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was convicted, so back in February, and obviously that would have pinged something
10:58
up leads as well, and leads just chose not to act on it at
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all. We didn't even know that he was a PPRC until he went to
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Hull. There was no mention of that from leads at all, So I'm
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not sure if it did leads miss it, I don't think so. I
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think leads probably took and look at it and thought stickers on lamp post we
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don't need to do anything here, but Hull have obviously got a different procedure.
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I've been talking to a few friends about it, and my circle is
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kind of split on whether it's just completing competence or whether it's malice. I'm
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not sure if Sam was moved to Hull so that they could do this to
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him, or maybe it is just that they've got a different system in Hull
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and you know they have tighter restrictions. But either way, the last email
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that I sent to the complaints department, I said, can you just confirm
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for me that whether you are a child murderer or someone who puts stickers on
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lamp posts, you get exactly the same restrictions put on you. And they
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just didn't respond to that email because he answers, yes, you're putting these
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ridiculous restrictions on a good man who has never hurt a child in his life,
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never intends to. So yeah, I'm not sure if it's incompetence our
12:03
malice. Maybe I'm naive. Even suggested it might just be incompetence, but
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it's it's just complete overkill and I just hope it gets I just hope it
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gets started out and I'm also worried, and a lot of other people have
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highlighted as well, what does that mean when Sam gets released, because we
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want him to come back and live in the family home, you know,
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with me and our two daughters. Is it going to be able to do
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that? I hope so, of course. And that's exactly what you know,
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the manual that I was just quoting from, that's exactly what it refers
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to, is that you know, they it's there in black and white that
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what they want to do is preserve the integrity of exactly these sorts of relationships
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and they have no business meddling with them, and they cite the European Convention
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on Human Rights and all this sort of thing. So I think your question
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of whether it's incompetence or malice is absolutely opposite. But also it's a possibility
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that in fact it's sort of both. I mean, it could be in
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competence that has a you know, malicious effect that nobody's actually doing anything about.
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Was Sam given any reason for the move between Leeds and Hull or were
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you? Is there? Anye? No? They? I think moves are
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a national decision, so it's not a governor that decides that I think it's
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a national decision, so it came from above the two governors. I mean,
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what's the interesting is Hull is a very very very overcrowded prison. It's
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operating at around one hundred and ten percent capacity. Leads is overcrowded as well,
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but I think Hull might even be worse. So it's not like,
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you know, Leads is full. So they're like, right, your time
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is done. Let's only my hair look a semester. It's not like your
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time is done, We're going to move you to Hull because Hull is even
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worse. Sam's currently in a single cell at the moment, but there's two
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of them in there, that's how overcrowded they are just on two single beds.
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So he hasn't been told why he was moved because Hull is also a
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remanned prison where people go temporarily until they get their permanent prisms. So no,
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I mean it is I think it's slightly a better category. According to
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the government website, is a B slash C, whereas Leeds is just a
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BEE. So I don't know if that's the reason. And in terms of
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the life that Sam has led to date, whilst he had been side.
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Bearing in mind again that this the judge was very explicit about this being a
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case that concerned free speech. What sort of response has has Sam had from
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those in prison with him, or indeed from from the staff or anyone that
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he's sort of had contact with since since beginning his sentence his case, the
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carlum a legend, and in Hull has only been there two weeks, but
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the Carl him a legend. He got an extra chicken leg for free when
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he went for his dinner, and he gets on with everyone. He gets
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on with all of the inmates that he's had contact with, and he gets
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on with all the staff as well. And when he tells people what is
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in for the like stickers, they can't believe why he's in there. I
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mean it is he's been talking to murderers and people who are armed robbers and
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you know, drug dealers and all this kind of stuff, and they're just
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like Stickers. And then the guards like him as well in Hull and in
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Leads. I mean, he got his enhanced status really fast in Leads,
15:13
enough for well behavior and all this kind of stuff. And then then when
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he went to Hull. It wasn't supposed to copy over to Hull, but
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one of the guards liked him and said, I'll copy her in hand stairs
15:22
so before you, because you deserve it. So he's getting on with everyone,
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and people just can't believe why he's in there, that that's even a
15:30
crime. I'm sure, well, good for him. And do you think
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that the sort of the undertone I one of censorship really and indeed stamping out
15:41
of free speech is sort of understood or do people just think he's been sort
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of tripped up on a petty offense. Do people see the significance of what's
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happened? Do you think I think a couple of cellmets has been with previously
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who has been able to talk to about it in depth. I think they
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understand the implications of this law, but I think, you know, just
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quick conversations that it has regards that might only last thirty seconds. Obviously,
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it doesn't get to get into that, so it's hard to know whether they
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think about it more or whether they're just not really tuned into that at all.
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And of course the other thing we must talk about is the idea of
16:22
an appeal, either of the conviction itself or the sentence. Because I know
16:27
that there's been a bit of back and forth on that, and I think
16:30
you've been advised that you'd be unlikely to get anywhere with an appeal against the
16:34
conviction, but possibly against the sentence because you're able to just talk a bit
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more about that. Yeah, So a lot of people have been confused about
16:42
this because they think that if you are innocent of something and you've got to
16:45
prison, you can appeal it. But it doesn't work like that. There
16:48
are people in the past who have been found guilty of murder and they've not
16:52
done it. And there are people in the past who have been found not
16:53
guilty of murder and they have done it. I mean, look at O.
16:56
J. Simpson, and you can't do anything about it if there's a
17:00
legal error or a legal sort of act of malice done during the trial.
17:03
So with Sam's case, there was no problems with the jury selection, there
17:08
was no problems with the judge. The judge made very clear that this was
17:12
about free speech and that Sam wasn't on trial for being a racist or anything
17:15
like that. The judge he didn't do anything that they shouldn't have done.
17:19
And then the prosecution they didn't do anything that they weren't supposed to do.
17:23
A few people have said that there was evidence admitted that they shouldn't have included,
17:27
like the Hitler post or what's that got to do with anything, But
17:30
they're allowed to do it now the law has changed where they're allowed to submit
17:33
any evidence that they want to. You can't appeal on that basis. So
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Sam's been advised by his barrister that there's not much likelihood of appealing the conviction
17:41
at all, but there is a likelihood to have been able to appeal the
17:45
sentence because it should have been suspended. And the reason why is that there's
17:51
like boxes that you have to tick to be able to get a suspended sentence,
17:55
and basically Sam ticks every single one of them, and not enough grab
18:00
task was given to that when the judge was deciding on his sentence. So
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the judge said, when he sent Sam down, this is going to have
18:07
massive ramifications for your family life and you know the people who were picking up
18:11
the pieces while you're inside. But I have to consider that sending you to
18:15
prison may act as a deterrent to other people. And that's why he gave
18:18
Sam a custodial sentence to act as a deterrent. He openly said that it
18:22
wasn't about Sam as a person, it was the message that it sends to
18:25
other people. So yeah, Richard, Sam's barrister thinks that he will be
18:30
able to appeal the sentence based on the fact that it should have been suspended.
18:34
So Sam's just decided whether he wants to do that or not, because
18:37
I think there's no risk in sending it to the first judge. But if
18:41
it goes up to the next stage and they decide not to, if they
18:45
consider it to be a waste of time, they can make you serve some
18:48
of your days again that you've already served. So Sam's just waiting up whether
18:52
it's worth the risk or not. Okay, Well that would be one that
18:56
will certainly follow up one, so please to keep in touch out exactly that.
19:02
Just to go back a little bit specifically with regard to the like you
19:11
say, what the judge says, you know, in terms of sort of
19:14
making an example, we're seeing increasingly now language that's being used by government and
19:19
the sort of the orbit of government, of the rising tide of extremism,
19:25
and you know, there was the report produced by Lord Walney just a couple
19:29
of weeks ago talking about you know, sort of dangerous ideologies and loan actors
19:33
and all this kind of thing. I want to talk a little bit about
19:37
the affiliation and your involvement with the Patriotic Alternative and to what extent you as
19:45
well as Sam and all of those involved with Patriarchtical Alternative are sort of feeling
19:51
a sense of increased pressure and scrutiny as a result of the ramping up of
19:55
the sort of extremism rhetoric and particularly targeting organzations and people that are being described
20:02
as far right. Yeah, we've dealt with this ever since we were formed
20:07
four and a half years ago, and it wasn't too long ago that Michael
20:10
Gove gave a speech in Parliament and said that we were an extremist organization and
20:14
then said a lot of lies about us, saying that we were a neo
20:15
Nazi organization, that we want to deport every single non white person in the
20:19
country, that we encourage violence against minority groups, all complete lies. But
20:23
he has the ability to say that in Parliament and we can't question it,
20:29
Harry. So, yeah, we're always called an extremist organization, but I
20:34
do think we are on the right track. And Sam was in court obviously,
20:38
and there's two other PA activists that have been to court and convicted of
20:41
the same offense, and during all of their trials, Patriotic Alternative were never
20:47
mentioned during the trial because they can't say anything about us. In fact,
20:52
PA were mentioned very briefly during Sam's trial, but as like a positive.
20:56
So it was put forward that Sam's more politically active now than his been in
21:00
his life. But it's all completely legal. So I do think we are
21:06
on the right track. And we do get a lot of people who join
21:07
us and they're paid off with the way that things are going in the country
21:11
and they're angry and they feel backed against the wall. There's nothing they can
21:14
do and per gives these people positive direction, you know, get involved with
21:18
your community, help out, push back, protest leaflet. We have a
21:22
homeless outreach initiative with clean up local areas. There's a lot of good work
21:25
that we do that you can channel your energy into. So I do feel
21:29
the fact that they weren't able to critique us in court for three PA activists,
21:33
it's all activity you know, to do with before PA existed, that
21:37
they've got done for I do think that means that we are on the right
21:41
track, because it means that at the moment, they haven't got anything against
21:44
us that they can bring up in court. Whether they change the law to
21:47
say talking about certain things like demographic change is now illegal, I don't know,
21:52
but I just hope that the pushback again something like that would be bigger
21:55
than just us. I hope more people would say, no, we are
21:56
allowed to talk about the changing demographics of Britain, and that topic is becoming
22:00
more and more mainstream. You know, there are people a few years ago
22:03
who wouldn't talk about that who now are so Yeah, I do hope that
22:08
we are safe. But the reason we're all involved is because we care about
22:11
the future, and we care about the kind of country that our children grow
22:15
up in. And I just I don't want my children to say to me
22:19
one day, you know, I'm completely unsafe. I feel like a stranger
22:22
in my own home. Why didn't you do anything about it? And then
22:25
I just go I was scared of being called racist. I don't want to
22:27
say that. I want to be able to say to them I did everything
22:30
I could. And that's why everyone up here does this. You know,
22:33
there is risk involved, but the alternative is to do nothing, and that
22:37
alternative is worse. Absolutely Well, you know, I think that's very heartening
22:42
to hear a message like that, and you know you seem completely not only
22:47
underterred, but also reassured. Really exactly like you say to say that,
22:52
in fact, Patriotic Alternative was not sighted in any of those cases. Except
22:55
in a positive light. It is, you know, it does suggest that
22:57
you are going in the right direction. Further, it does also intimate a
23:03
sort of grotesque irony in preventing Sam from seeing his children at this time.
23:08
And you know, I mean, anyone listening I'm sure will hope very much
23:14
that that is a situation that is reversed. But Laura, do tell me
23:19
where can people find out more about what's going on and keep abreast well sort
23:26
of both things, really keep abreast of your yours and sam situations and what's
23:29
happening, but also you know, looking into the sort of the wider message
23:33
that you've got, where would you direct people? Well, Patriotic Alternative is
23:37
banned from every social media platform, including Twitter. Even if you try to
23:42
post our website. It says that our website is malware and doesn't let you
23:47
post it, so I would direct people to go straight to our website,
23:49
which is Patriotic Alternative dot org dot UK. If there's I think on the
23:55
hormpage at the moment, it's an article about Sam, So if you want
23:57
to read in detail what's happened and look look at the emails and stuff,
24:00
it's all on there. There are also ways on there that you can push
24:03
back. So if you want to write a letter to the Governor of Hull
24:07
or the complaints department at Hull, there's a sample letter on there. Please
24:10
do consider doing that, even if it's just copying and pasting the sample letter
24:14
to try and get some access to his children. There's also a petition on
24:18
there if you want to sign the petition to free Sam, that literally takets
24:21
like thirty seconds. And also this might be a bit cheeky, but it's
24:23
Sam's birthday on Sunday and obviously he's locked in there by himself and able to
24:30
see anyone. So if you want to send him a birthday card, so
24:32
you can do that and they give them to him. So peer website is
24:37
the main thing, but I'd also say telegram. We're active on telegram my
24:41
channel, Laura Towler. There's also Mark Collett who's the leader of Peer,
24:45
and there's a patriotic alternative official telegram channel as well. Excellent, I will
24:52
rise all this up and then we'll go in notes to believe this. But
24:56
no, that's a lot of people to go and look at. Tell me
24:57
on the petition. Is the this petition going to be affected by the general
25:02
election and we put it on change dot org. I believe and the aim
25:07
of the petition, I'd like I think we're all most at twenty five hundred
25:11
signatures. I'd really like us to try and get to five thousand. Buy
25:15
Sam's next probation meeting, which is in the middle of July, because they
25:18
are saying that they've seen the public's response to Sam's conviction and sentence and they
25:23
have to be very careful when considering when they're going to release him. So
25:27
it does seem like they have seen that there is a lot of pushback towards
25:30
Sam, and if Sam can present that petition to them, you know,
25:33
in his next meeting in July, and say, look, people want me
25:37
to be released, even if it's just a one percent chance that they might
25:40
consider it and say like you know, yeah, you know, he has
25:42
got the public on his side. It's worth doing it. So yeah,
25:45
it's unchange dot org. It's not on the government website. And even if
25:49
you think petitions are a bit lame and the government are not going to let
25:52
him go, you know, there are other benefits to these petitions because Sam
25:56
can present it to his probation team. So it would really help if you
26:00
would sign it for us. Absolutely, And that's a point well made.
26:03
You know, petitions don't always secure the outcomes that are hoped for, but
26:07
they do at least put on record what people think about things and the numbers
26:11
of people. But do think about that, and they do. They do
26:12
serve as a direct challenge. So I would absolutely echo your views on that.
26:17
Now, Laura, we'll draw to a close soon, but and we've
26:22
I think you've dealt very thoroughly with all the issues that are sort of at
26:26
hand in the minute. Is there anything you can think of that we haven't
26:27
necessarily touched on that you think is important to get out at this point?
26:34
Not really, I mean, Pa, you've got some more campaigns come in
26:38
this year. From a free free speech perspective, things that you can get
26:42
involved in in ways that we can help more people who might be going through
26:45
the same thing. So if you do subscribe to our telegram channel, it
26:48
will all be announced on there. But yeah, just helped to spread the
26:52
word. And Sam's not the only political prisoner in this country. There are
26:56
other people. You know, at PEA, we've also got Gyms Al Church
26:59
and James Costello who were done for the same the same thing, not stickers.
27:03
James Costello's was sharing a religious book from America and Friends. James Alchurch
27:11
His was a radio show that he had where they said that he used racial
27:14
slurs a number of years ago. So they're also political prisoners. And you
27:19
know, the stories are out there if you want to go read them and
27:22
let people know that this kind of thing is happening in England and Wills because
27:25
every time I tell someone about what's happened to Sam, they can't believe it.
27:29
They're like stickers, you know, even people who disagree with the messages
27:32
on the stickers, they're like, he's not encouraging violence, he's not using
27:34
slurs. He should be able to say he's against immigration if he wants to.
27:38
But yeah, just just spread the message if you can thank you.
27:42
Perfect and political prisoners is absolutely right, that's exactly what this is. And
27:48
people really do need to sit up and pay attention to this because it is
27:51
terrifically serious. So Laura, thank you very very much, indeed, to
27:56
the UK column audience, thank you very much, indeed for tuning in.
28:00
Please consider joining us for five pounds a month, and notes and links from
28:07
this talk will be posted at UK column dot org. But Laura, thank
28:10
you very much, deed for for joining me. It's a real pleasure to
28:12
talk to you. Good luck to you, your family and the wider cause.
28:17
Thanks a lot. Thank you so much for having me. It was
28:19
lovely to talk to you.