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Adrian Swinscoe | Bringing Punk to Customer Experience · The Wilmac Wire

• Emily McNulty: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, welcome or welcome back to the Wilmack Wire. Thank you for tuning in. Today's episode, I got to speak with a CX leader from Scotland. And before I introduce him and what you can expect out of today's episode, I have to give a shout out to our Wilmac, Scotland representative, Charlie Sneddon, who pointed me in our guest direction today. So you can expect to hear from Adrian Swinsco. In today's episode. CX advisor, he's an author, Forbes contributor of 12 years, and he's host of the Punk CX podcast with over 600 episodes. And Will MackWire listeners, we are nearing our 100th episode of this podcast. So we're getting to that 600 slowly but surely. So maybe eventually we'll catch up with Adrian, even though he's got well over 10 years of podcast experience on us. But I'm ready for it. Let's keep grinding. We got into a lot of stuff in Adrian's episode. He was an absolute delight to speak with. of course, we talked about punk CX. So I encourage you very much so to keep listening. Cause that's just a really cool analogy that honestly we could all apply to our own daily lives. It doesn't just apply to CX. So I'm gonna stop chatting and we're just gonna go right into today's episode. Thanks, Adrian, so much for joining me. And thank you for tuning into the Will MacWire. All right, let's get started today. Joining us from Scotland, he's spent more than 25 years advising and growing customer-focused businesses, large and small, including many technology vendors. He's been operating independently since 2009 and has since advised brands like Apple, Microsoft, Zoom, Adobe, and KFC on customer service and experience. He's written four books, including the bestseller, How to Wow, and was a Forbes contributor for over 12 years. He's hosted his own podcast, Punk CX, since 2011 with nearly 600 episodes. And if you didn't catch it from his podcast name, he's a self-proclaimed aspiring CX punk. Welcome to the Will MacWire, Adrian Swinsco. Woo! Awesome. Adrian Swinscoe: Hey, how you doing? Emily McNulty: Well, thanks for joining me on the podcast, Adrian. We we really appreciate your time. we're gonna kick things off with our icebreaker that we like to call this or that. I've got three questions for you. I'll offer you two options for each question and you can choose your preference and explain a little bit why. so the first one, I call them out in your intro, but hosting a podcast or writing a book. Adrian Swinscoe: not hosting a podcast because writing a book is hard. Emily McNulty: It's it's funny because we've we've had a couple guests on the podcast who have written books and I typically ask that question like what was the experience like? And everyone always seems a little bit scarred, like a little bit of PTSD from writing the book because it is challenging. I know I've heard it's a long process. Is that similar similar sentiment? Adrian Swinscoe: Well, thing is, that the, so. My reflection on writing books, having written four of them is that, I've spoken to a number of people that have written books. And I think there's, for me, I think there's two types of authors. There's ones that have an idea and they write a book because they, they wanted to take them somewhere. And then there's some people that just write books along the way. And I'm sort of like, they're more in the latter. I write books along the way. And it's a like, because I all the podcasting and I write these articles and all these different sorts of things, it's almost like thinking in series. It's like a soap opera. So it's like Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: the long running series of days of our lives with all these different sort of like, I think that's a reference that your US listeners might get Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: or Coronation Street here in the UK. And then every now and again, you produce a film of all of the stuff. So it's basically Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Right. Adrian Swinscoe: a repackaging of a whole bunch of ideas and organizing and things. And that's kind of how I Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: tend to approach it. So it's never like a theory of everything. It's almost a bit like a repackaging of a whole bunch of thinking that's been going Emily McNulty: Yes. Adrian Swinscoe: on for some time. Emily McNulty: Yeah, I like that. I I'm I'm I'm in the marketing. I work in marketing for for Will Mac and I'm a big believer in repurposing. Like if you've already thought the thought, like let's just put it like you said, repackage it in different ways. So I I like that perspective, but understand why the preference is hosting a podcast. But I mean six hundred episodes is nothing to scoff at. That I'm sure has taken a lot of time. Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: Yeah, north of 600 now. yeah, it's, know, I can't think of an activity where I get access to sort of 600 different sort of people to pick their brains on things and to think and Emily McNulty: yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: have a conversation with them and to build relationships and connections and to learn from people and to explore things in public. Emily McNulty: for sure. Adrian Swinscoe: It's a privilege. Emily McNulty: It is, yeah. I I love chatting with people and hearing just their stories. Like you said, everyone's so unique. all right, let's move into our next one. Adrian Swinscoe: Mm-hmm. Emily McNulty: a little bit more sports related, but football or rugby? Adrian Swinscoe: So when you say football, do you mean US football or case? Emily McNulty: y your football. Adrian Swinscoe: So, well, both actually, because I used to play rugby a lot and I sort of Emily McNulty: Okay. Adrian Swinscoe: followed rugby and but I am now a sort of supporter, former season ticket holder at Brighton and Hove Albion, but because Emily McNulty: Very nice. Adrian Swinscoe: my wife and I lived there for nearly 14 and a half years and got season tickets and so I follow them from afar now. So I'd say both. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's that's fair. I I'm I follow all the sports too. So love that though. I'm a competitive person. So all right. And last one, we're gonna go into the punk space a little bit, but the Ramones or the Clash? Adrian Swinscoe: clash. Emily McNulty: I figured. Adrian Swinscoe: No, only because the Ramones, no disrespect to the Ramones because the Ramones Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: were great. I think that the clash and given how they were influenced by Reggae and all the politics and things that were going on around them and some of the political commentary and some of their songs is, I just think they were for me just like a much, much more interesting band. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever been to a concert? Adrian Swinscoe: Clash one, no, I'm not old enough to be an original punk. My first Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: formative kind of music genre was two tone new wave ska. Emily McNulty: Okay. Adrian Swinscoe: And then I came to sort of a punk with that, because that came out of sort of like punk and reggae and stuff and also Jamaican ska. And then I came to punk kind of like a bit later, sort of more post-punk or as punk just kind of like grew. Emily McNulty: Yeah. So are you a musician or do you just appreciate music? Adrian Swinscoe: I can't play a note. So I'm more of a fan than I am anything else. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Yeah, similar. Don't don't ask me to hold a tune of any of any sort. But all right, wonderful. Thanks, Adrian, for for humoring us and doing our our icebreaker. like Adrian Swinscoe: Welcome. Emily McNulty: I said, not not too challenging, I hope. okay, we're we're gonna go right into your career journey, Adrian, and take it back a bit. so you went to Dundee to in college to study economics. So why, first of all, and then What did you originally picture doing with that with that degree and was CX ever in in ev ever in your mind? Adrian Swinscoe: so no. so Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: I think the first thought, but I think about thinking about that earlier. And, and, I wanted to do study economics in high school. but I couldn't, the, the timetable wouldn't allow me to do that. So it was always a thing that sat kind of with me. And I thought, well, economics feels like a, a, a different thing. And then. I had a bit trouble towards tailing the school and I didn't get the grades that I wanted. So I ended up going to Dundee and I ended up studying economics and psychology to start with. And I had these just joint honors sort of track and did that for, I think it was for a couple of years or so. And then they, in the moment, they couldn't deliver like a joint honors in economics and psychology, which now would be a thing, right? Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: So this is you have to pick one and I picked economics because I thought at the time this was like late eight late eighties early nineties I thought economics is the thing that I probably most likely to get me a job and and so that's why I went down to the comics route, but then as as a Progress then the thing that that that that I came to is that I became almost disillusioned with their whole idea of economics and that it would becoming so mathematical and trying to Masquerade as a science and and then forgetting the human dimension and so when there was options to take more maths courses I actually ended up going no, I'm not going to do that. I'm gonna study things like radical political economy history of economic thought that's what's off because I'm more interested in rather than the dominant logic of the system that we're in it's like what are the other options that are around and that's all Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: informed Kind of what I've done, but then I was doing other Emily McNulty: Right. Adrian Swinscoe: things and I went from economics and then took a teacher training qualification. So in the UK, it's called PGCE. And that went that was at Manchester. And then after that, rather than spending time in the UK, if like, learning my trade, as it were, I decided that I had a whole bunch of peers that were going off traveling for like a year. And I thought, well, actually, I'm not interested in doing postcard travel, where you end up having this whole bunch of experiences where you're like going experiences that are an inch deep, but are a mile wide. And I thought, actually I'm more interested in trying to go somewhere where I end up with this inch wide, mile deep sort of experience. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: And so I thought, well, it wouldn't be great if I could go teach somewhere, work somewhere else. And so I applied for three jobs. One was in Malawi, one was in Kenya, one was in Cairo in Egypt. And Emily McNulty: Okay. Adrian Swinscoe: I really wanted the Kenyan. because at the time, as I said earlier, I was playing rugby and they had a good rugby program. So I thought I could do coaching and stuff, but they decided that I didn't have enough experience, but I got offered the job in Malawi and the job in Cairo in Egypt. And at the time Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: I looked up, some research and looked at what was going on in each other's countries. And it felt like that Egypt was a bit more sort of like stable and interesting thing than... than a bit more stable at the time. I plumped for the Cairo job. So I went there, worked there for two years as a teacher. And whilst there, thinking about economics, I ended up meeting a whole bunch of people and got introduced to people who were involved in an economic research institute startup. And I started working for them. And then, After I left teaching, worked for them for a while. They got an opportunity to come back to London for a for a little while, which I worked for company within the Economist group, did that for about 18 months and then came back to Egypt, did another two years in the same institute. And I was Emily McNulty: Okay. Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: just doing economic research and forecasting and policy sort of like stuff and Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: which was fascinating and brilliant. And if you could give me the long story short of it, I got to the end of that and I had to make a choice. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: do I want to become a professional economist or do Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: I want to do something else and becoming a professional economist would then require me to take a PhD in economics. And I applied for a whole bunch of programs. I was advised to go and apply to some US universities because Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: it was universities that were close to some of the multilateral institutions, particularly in and around the Washington area. And I got offered a bunch of scholarships and. I nearly said yes, I nearly signed on the dotted line. And then Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: I thought, actually, I'm not sure this is for me. I didn't Emily McNulty: Okay. Adrian Swinscoe: fancy sort of spending the next sort of five or so years kind of being a poor student. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: And so I, in modern parlance, I pivoted and said, well, fine, let's see if I can take my experience and go into the commercial sector. So then I ended Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: up applying, got onto an MBA in what is now known as Bayes Business School in London. and did an MBA, did that and then worked for the Financial Times group and then worked for the Shell group for about four or five years. And then from about 2004, I kind of, there was some restructuring in Shell and I didn't want to take an operational job. liked sort of the work that I was doing. And so I went on my own and then was working as an independent consultant. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: for about four or five years and then come around about 2008, 2009 started to think, well, actually I can see where the market is going. I Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: like the independent idea, but I could see that if I wanted to work independently, I needed to develop this digital footprint and that started me on this whole writing and then Emily McNulty: Right. Adrian Swinscoe: eventually led me to kind of podcasting and so on and so forth. And here we are now. Emily McNulty: Yeah. my gosh. What a long and and winding journey. But I have to tell you, Adrian. So my roommate in college, and now my my sister-in-law is from Cairo. So I've been to I've been to Cairo twice. Yep. Adrian Swinscoe: Okay. Okay, nice. Emily McNulty: were you did you go inside a pyramid? Adrian Swinscoe: Did I go inside in the pyramid? No, but I climbed to the top of one and kind of like and then got chased off by the security guards. Emily McNulty: Okay. Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: I have we've done a whole but I did a whole bunch of exploration with some friends there. So we got into some Emily McNulty: Wow. Adrian Swinscoe: places where we weren't supposed to go and we got Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: escorted away at gunpoint and also so different things. So there's lots of stories there but it was Emily McNulty: I can imagine. Adrian Swinscoe: it was. Yeah, no, was it's it's a fascinating place. And yeah, Emily McNulty: Yes. Adrian Swinscoe: I love my time there. Emily McNulty: Yeah, very cool. And so you spent a couple of years there, it sounds like, correct? Adrian Swinscoe: In total about four and a half years in two periods. So from Emily McNulty: wow, okay. Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: about 93 through to, is it 95, 96, and then from, and then 97 through to 99. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say for for our listeners, if you ever get the chance to go to Egypt to see the pyramids, they are pretty magnificent, I have to say. Adrian Swinscoe: it's an incredible thing. Emily McNulty: yes, definitely. I I did go inside of one. There is some bad juju around going inside of one. So knock knock on wood and fingers crossed that will not affect me long term. But yeah, I I had to I had to call that out. But it sounds like to your your journey to to get to kind of where you're at now and what you've built. has taken you to some very, very cool places, which which I love to hear. okay, so you started to go, like you said, you you kind of ventured into going into that independent route a couple years before you actually started your own launched your own business. that writing piece, like you got into we talked about you being a contributor to Forbes for many years. Like how did you get there? Like you it sounded like you were you were building for a while, but Adrian Swinscoe: yeah. mean, it's like the, so the writing thing was, so I've always had an ability to, whether it was with economics and things, almost to join the dots and to be quite good at sort of like forecasting about Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: what's likely to happen. And I could see back in say 2008, I could see the way that the internet was developing that if I wanted to work independently, I needed to develop this, what call a digital footprint. I thought the reason I wanted it, I should do, and to do that, I needed to start writing because that would allow Emily McNulty: Mm. Adrian Swinscoe: me to, what I call, of like develop trust at a distance. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: Because at the time there was too many people that were selling things, pushing out emails and going like, sign up to my email list and then I'll tell you the secret source and things. But you're like going, people don't know. Emily McNulty: Yeah, clickbaity. Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: of who you are. It's the same same deal now. And so I thought, well, actually, I'm just going to write and then eventually start putting a right and invest, start podcasting because there's no guarantee that people have to get to know what you think and how you think and things and you'll find your your audience. And it was the idea that I wasn't coming up with frameworks or answers or anything. I was just kind of thinking out loud. And I was always called my writing and podcasting and things is my public thinking digital notebook. And it's, Emily McNulty: Mm, okay. Adrian Swinscoe: it's just a way of me when I write, it's just a way of thinking out loud. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: And so I did that and then self published this book called rare business. And that was 2010. And they started the podcast 2011 and it kept going, kept going, kept going. And then was it 2014? I've been doing that for a few years. And then 2014 Forbes reached out to me and said, Hey, we like what you're doing. Would you like to come and become a contributor for us? And, and I said, sure. Now I didn't really get paid for it. and that's kind of fine, but it's a platform, right. It was a great platform Emily McNulty: my gosh, yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: and a great sort of halo. So thing. And that run lasted for like 12 years. and Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: at the end of last year, I got rationalized as there's been a lot of rationalization in the, in the, in the whole contributor sort of like space. And I think it's because my things I was writing about is a bit too niche. for them. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: But now I sort of still write and I contribute to, you know, CX today and CMS wire and they're sort of those sort of guys a bit more specialized publications. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: But the the principle still stands is that I am, you know, thinking out loud and trying to Emily McNulty: Right. Right. Adrian Swinscoe: notice things join the dots kind of like ask Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: questions and and to try and advocate for better outcomes. Emily McNulty: Right. Yeah. I I I think it's really interesting how you talk about connecting the dots first, but then even going back to what you were talking about before in that economics and psychology like string, and how those were connected in terms of like especially in the CX space, like yes, there is a mathematical and scientific approach that many people take, but there's also the psychology, you're dealing with people ultimately Adrian Swinscoe: Mm-hmm. Emily McNulty: and understanding that and how to connect those dots. Obvious differentiate to positive and good CX versus negative CX. Adrian Swinscoe: Mm-hmm. Emily McNulty: so I I'm I love those that dot connection. But all right, Adrian, let me ask like what does your day to day look like now? And then what has what has kept you in the CX space? What's kept you motivated in being there? Adrian Swinscoe: So let me answer the last part first. because it adds a bit of color to where I originally started from. Because originally I started writing when I started my website and things. And I was writing about general sort of like stuff, general business, strategy, marketing sort of stuff. that's, you know, forgive me and forgive, and that's forgiveness from your listeners. That got really boring very quickly. And so I thought I had to think about, well, what do I like and what do I want to create or what I not like and what I want to change? And the thing that struck me is that, so I really don't like bad service. And because I was always frustrated having built and developed things that had employee and customer value at their heart, it always frustrated me that oftentimes organizations get in the way of their people doing a good job. And so I thought, well, let me kind see if I can find clues about people and things and approaches that can be useful for people that can write sort of stories about that or share or analyze it, think about it and try and just be a useful kind of like resource. so that frustration from Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: about... 2009 or so still exists today. I'm still frustrated. I deal with bad service, right? And it still hasn't seemingly got very much better. In fact, if Emily McNulty: Right. Adrian Swinscoe: arguably we could say the better it comes in very infrequent pockets and generally the standard is not great. but so in terms of what my day to day looks like, well, I actually, it's really varied because it all depends on what's, what's, what's kind of going on with that, whether I've got a I client engagement that's ongoing where I've got a trip coming up aware of whether I've got a writing project that I need to get stuck into, whether I've got, know, how many podcasts need to get conducted and so on and so forth, you know, and also the bed of my life can have, you know, responding to emails and managing my inbox. I get twitchy when it goes up above a certain number, then I have to have a big clean out because it almost acts Emily McNulty: Yep. Yep. Adrian Swinscoe: as my long, long, long to do list. Emily McNulty: yeah. for sure. yeah, a a full email box stresses me out. I need to get need to clean that up for sure. But okay, so it sounds like really the the the way that you got into CX, like you said, was just from that own frustration that you had with with bad service. And now that's taken you to speaking with some of the largest, most scrutinized brands in this space. So how what have those interactions looked like? Adrian Swinscoe: Well, you know, it's I mean, it's all great. It's all very varied. I think that the thing that I'm trying to do is I've never never come up with I never I never got to the point that I'm I'm like, I've got the answer. You're like, no, I think that's that's that's there is no answer that fits all cases. I think what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to advocate for better, encourage difference, encourage people to be brave, to think differently, to look at a problem and rather than just going or reacting and then thinking about fixing it, it's going, let's understand the problem. Let's lean into it. Let's think about what's the best way to do it. because here's the truth is like if everybody's doing a similar thing, but expecting to create difference. create a differentiated experience. going, that's the way madness lies, or at least disappointment. And it's like, there's a line, one of my favorite lines in the Punksy X-Book, and I think it's a great question. And it says, are you an artist or are you just coloring in? And then what I'm trying to do is to say, they've got two groups of people, I'm trying to get people, most people are just coloring in and expecting to create art. I'm trying to get people to switch over to, can I be an artist? And what does that mean for us? Because there lies the of the engagement, the difference, the kind of the, you know, the lean in all those, those types of things. And it could be, it's going to be different for any kind of brand. And I'm just trying to encourage people to go, ooh, I wonder what that looks like for us. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so let me ask, do those conversations then happen with the CX leaders at these companies? Do does the contact center team get involved, the digital transformation team? I can imagine there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen when you're speaking Adrian Swinscoe: Mm-hmm. Emily McNulty: to that breath. Adrian Swinscoe: Yeah, it's I think it's it's So I'm not trying to be a preacher, so I'm not trying to convert anybody. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: So I'm looking to try and speak to effectively a coalition of the willing. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: So people are going, hmm, I think there's something going on. There's a poster just behind me, which you can't see because it's blurred out. And there's a quote from Woody Guthrie on it, which says, in an interview when he's... An interview with his son, Arlo Guthrie, when he was asked what his dad thought the role of folk music in protest was, he said, the role of folk music in protest is to disturb the comfortable and to comfort the disturbed. And so I'm trying to, I think I'm trying to do those two things. I'm trying to either, if people are there going, actually, I need to do something. I'm trying to disturb the comfortable and to show them what they are to the possible is, or if they are already disturbed and Mr. Guthrie's kind of like parlance, then I'm trying to comfort them. And then hopefully it would be a guide along the way or somebody that can maybe add a little bit of fuel, better perspective, a bit of insight. on it. it's, I mean, what I do is I think is very, yes, there's a lot of technology involved, but it's very, very human endeavor. I mean, believe Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: in that, in that the whole customer experience kind of game is a human endeavor, because it's about humans serving other humans. Emily McNulty: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I I love that. And I think it aligns a lot with our our our similar methodology at Will Mac, like in to what we're seeing across every industry. We work with nine one one center leaders, we work with contact center leaders. Those that are challenging the status status quo and are differentiating themselves are the ones who are talking about what you're what you're doing. Like let's look at things it with a different lens. not be pressured by all of the all of the stuff that's flying at us, but stay true to our vision and establish that vision and how do we execute. so that that kind of goes into Punk CX, which which you've called out multiple times now. And I would love to just start going down that path by can you just can you share how that analogy came about? Adrian Swinscoe: It came about after a number of pints of Guinness with a friend of mine, O'Sheen, and it was kind of what drunks would call a moment of clarity. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: We were talking about the whole, we were both in the sort of experience base. He was working for a vendor. I was just kind of operating independently, but we partnered up and we were doing some work together with some of their kind of brands. And we were talking about, we were sort of excited about the amount of activity and investment and enthusiasm in this sort of space. But I was frustrated about the amount of impact, amount of how much progress was being made. And I blurted out, well, I somebody would do something kind of a bit more punk. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: And I promptly, because of the, obviously, because of the amount of Guinness that we drunk, I promptly forgot that idea, but then it popped back into my head like a couple of weeks later and Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: I was thinking, let me think about that. And being a fan of punk music, I know that... One of the things about punk is that it almost exploded. You can make an argument that exploded out to the back of progressive rock in the 1970s. and progressive rock was, while it's popular, was also, you know, guilty of being more interested in its own virtuosity. You know, like how long it's solos could be or how many keyboards you can play simultaneously, all Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: that type of stuff. so the punk was a bit like, don't need a PhD in music to be in a band. You just need to Emily McNulty: Right. Adrian Swinscoe: be in a band, right? pick up a guitar, Emily McNulty: Yes. Adrian Swinscoe: pick up some drumsticks, write some tunes, pick up a mic and then have a go. That sort of DIY, just have a go, you know, idea and make things short, sharp and punchy and it's all about the impact and the message. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: And so that was the evolution of that. And it struck me that I thought that the experience fields was guilty of exhibiting some of the same characteristics that Prog Rock did in the 1970s and that it'd become overly certified, codified, benchmark metrics, et cetera, et cetera. And it was in danger of losing sight of the people that were serving, of rather than kind of itself. It's more interesting itself than the people that were serving. And I thought, well, if that's true, then what would a punk version look like? And that was the genesis of the idea behind the book. And so I wrote the book and it was inspired by music albums and punk fanzines and so on and so forth. So it doesn't have chapters. Emily McNulty: Yeah. cool. Adrian Swinscoe: It has tracks and it's like a punk fanzine. So it's like full color. It's very short. Each kind of track is like words written on a page and it doesn't seek to explain itself. It's just about trying to be provocative, trying to share an idea quickly, trying to ask a question. And it's not scared about not being liked. And Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: in essence, it was... an art project. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: They just put it out there and go like, wonder if this works. And then it just started Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: to resonate with people. People are like going, my God, I love this. And Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: that's cool. And it still resonates with people. And even now people go, I've just found your book. And it's like, wow, it's amazing. And I'm like, that's seven years ago that first, that thing first came out and it's still landing. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: It's still reasonably fresh and still has a message that it's worth kind of like sharing. And Emily McNulty: Right. Adrian Swinscoe: I love that. But It was done with no expectation other than it was just a thing that came out of a sort of an insight that pulled together music with experience and some of things I was thinking about. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that that's cool. I love the fact that it just came up over over drinking some Guinnesses. That that is awesome. but so my gosh, so many, so many questions out of that. let me let me first ask. So when when you're talking about punk, like, do you talk about punk CX often with like your clients? Like you're all right, let's go back to this concept. And do they resonate with it? Cause I feel like Within CX, it's so heavily there's just a lot of technology speak around it. It can be looked at as very, I don't know, bland when it's a really dynamic thing, like if you're doing it pretty typically. So I can see how the punk CX analogy kind of like, all right, yeah, this is a different way to think about it. I don't know. Adrian Swinscoe: Sure. Emily McNulty: Can you just talk about that a little bit more? Adrian Swinscoe: Yeah, absolutely. I it resonates to people. I like I, so last week I was, I was with a client, an offsite of theirs and they are a, they're like a fast growing kind of firm and they were bringing all that, know, they're particularly their sales and they go to market kind of team together and they were thinking about kind of next year and it was like planning sort of like thing and They asked me to come along and just to talk to them, but also to help facilitate, the three days that we were there. And it was long, it was exhausting, but it was brilliant. And we use a lot of the punk CX and the punk XL sort of like some themes, which the punk XL is the follow-on book. And yeah, they kind of like that question I said that I've shared with you earlier about, you an artist, are you just coloring in? I think it's one of those ones that just... It makes people stop and think. You're like, yeah, are we following the process? a process? just because we crank the handle a bit faster, yes, we might grow, but are we going to grow at the rate that we want to do and be known for the things we want to be known for and so on and so forth? And so it was just this challenge to go look, to think differently, to give them some ideas and some inputs and things. but then put Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: a frame around it and go like, well, what does that mean for you? of how does that, Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: what are the things that you are, you're going to put down where you're coloring in, coloring in sort of thing and what things are you going to try and do differently? Where's your focus going to lie? What experiments are you going to run? How are you going to try and do things kind of like differently? And so, yeah, I think it's, it's a, it still resonates with people. That's the sort of kind of thing that, that, that I'll do. Sometimes it'll be as simple as just come and do like a quick. a quick talk about about Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: where things are at and what's what's going right what's going wrong where people should be thinking about and so the the variety of that of the some of the engagements I get involved with is is is great and other ones it can be like we just want to be kind of almost like be our guide along the way help us figure Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: out understand the problem and then just kind of like almost like walk with us which Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: is less of a consulting thing, but more of an advisory sounding board Emily McNulty: Right. Right. Adrian Swinscoe: thing. So the sort of assignments I get involved with is wide and varied and about the, you know, bottom line is, that I get paid to do stuff I like with people I like, which is a gift. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Hey. I was about to say that's a pretty good gig then. Adrian, I have to ask too. So we've talked about some of those well known brands, the Apples, the Microsofts, the Adrian Swinscoe: Mm-hmm. Emily McNulty: Adobe's, KFC, but you've also worked with quite a few of Wilmax partners in this space. Varent, Nice, Five Nine, a lot of the people who are kind of in our realm, what have those experiences looked like? Because those are more, they're technology vendors. So their approach to CX and developing the technology that's facilitating the CX might be a little bit different. Adrian Swinscoe: Yeah, so I've worked with lot of vendors increasingly with more and vendors over the course of the last number of years. And I think that's about it's primarily about. It's about, well, it's about it's about storytelling and about translation, because many of the vendors, many of the vendors will will will talk about. how they're, know, the other features and the new developments and all these different sort of things. And what I try and kind of do is try and help them translate that into kind of like stories or anecdotes or articles or podcasts, whatever, which allows us to explore what they're doing, but then also try and fuse it back to what does this actually mean? Where are the challenges? What does it mean? Who's getting it right? What are they learning from that? What are the lessons that can be coming? So it doesn't get, it gets lost in that a lot of the product announcements and the platform Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: announcements. And so I'm trying to sort of humanize some of these kind of things to help people make better decisions about where they should go or what should be looking at and thinking about when they're thinking about their vendor conversations. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I I had to ask since there are partners. But all right, before I I s we dig into kind of some the the mindset psychology behind you being a a driver, Adrian, I did wanna I had to ask about where AI is showing up in your punk CX conversations. Is it showing up? I'm assuming it is, and if so, like how are you relating it back to that core analogy? Adrian Swinscoe: Well, it is showing up and it's showing up all over the place. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: The problem is that I think that, you know, I am fascinated by the technology. I am excited. I mean, in awe of some of the developments and the pace of developments, I'm, you know, excited by its possibilities and the potential, but I'm also cognizant of the idea that it's also a tool. And the thing that I've been encouraging people to do is to think about, because again, you can apply it everywhere, right? the sales and the marketing domain all the way through to service and kind of like support. retention and loyalty and it works across the whole cycle, whether it's either your front of house or your behind the scenes. There's applications all over the place. And that's kind of brilliant. again, I get to the point where I say to people, look, it's a tool and yes, you should be educating yourself on kind of the possibilities of the tool, but ultimately... You need to be careful. It's the tail doesn't work the dog. Right. You have to understand what is it that you want to create? What Emily McNulty: Right. Right. Adrian Swinscoe: is the problem that you want to solve? What is your vision for the experience that you want to deliver? And Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: what do you need to kind of like put in place or to build in order to deliver that? And that might take a little, it may take a little while. And so I'm inspired by this idea that, you know, the There's this kind of saying that comes from Einstein that says, if you give me an hour to solve a problem, I will spend 55 minutes thinking about the problem and five minutes solving it. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: And the problem is, is in modern life, particularly modern organizational life, is that we tend to do the inverse. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: That we think about it for five minutes and then we have to get stuck into the fix. Emily McNulty: Yes. Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: that what I'm advocating for people is to say, well, if you do that, then what you end up doing is you end up losing sight of what is the end game. And two, you end up becoming almost increasingly reliant on the technology as this quick fix, as it were. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: And I think by understanding the problem, understanding how it works for both customers and employees and partners and the businesses as a whole, then you can start to piece together kind of things. that deliver the outcomes that you really want to drive rather than just plugging it in, turning the handle and then you see what you get. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: And so trying to have a much more considered and conscious kind of way of Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: kind of doing things. I think it was in, and I know it's hard, but in this maelstrom of technological development that we've had in the last sort of five years or so, it's that sort of idea the story, telling stories about what you'd like to deliver and then how you're building towards that is we sort of lost that. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: I think we've lost that in the rush. And I think that there are, I think the idea about rushing and the pace of change and everything else, it's, yeah, it's real, but it's also got an illusory element to it. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: And I would use, cause I use stories a lot. I think there's a lot to be learned from. Aesop's fable about the race between the tortoise and the hare. And I think it's something else I've written about. I think that there's too many people, too many companies that are trying to be hares when in fact it might be a better strategy to be a tortoise. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: because the tortoise wins the race. Emily McNulty: Right. Right. And I I I a hundred percent see that. And I I know, I'm sure that you experience this too when you're speaking with these leaders, that they see the pace at which things are changing. Like you just called out the new developments that are coming out, how AI is changing, the perspectives on AI are changing. And they're like, we need to move at such an urgent speed that the core and the of what their vision is is lost because they're just moving. And pivoting so much. so staying rooted in in what they're they're driving towards is that key. Adrian Swinscoe: Let me give you some research data points that and this Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: is, are old stuff, well old and kind of new sort of stuff. And Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: I learned this from a recent podcast guest called recorder assembler. And so there's the old famous McKinsey piece of data that says 70 % of all big transformation projects fail to meet their objectives. And they largely fail because of things like. lack of leadership communication, lack of training, brought people along and so on and so forth. So it's more of a human element rather than a technological sort of like or a process sort of thing. But those numbers flip if you involve to like, so you had to with a 70 % success rate if you involve your constituents, see. Emily McNulty: The people being impacted by it. Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: Yeah, if you involve them in that like, what does this transformation need to look like? So they end up having a seat at the table. And that number then rises to nearly 80 % if you then enable and empower those people to enact the change. So Emily McNulty: Yeah. Okay. Adrian Swinscoe: the Delta is like, kind of like, yes, it might take time. That consultation sort of period. Yes, it takes time, but guess what? You might spend a bit of time, but. that the hockey stick is going to be Emily McNulty: Ya Adrian Swinscoe: long and sustained in terms of coming when it comes out because you've got a pack of people that are involved and committed to and then some of the role they're going to play and all these different things is that that is a recipe for sustained success and learning and growth and so on and so forth. Emily McNulty: Right. Adrian Swinscoe: And so Yes, I know that runs counter to some of the rhythms in that, but I think that the real challenge is like, that's a leadership challenge. That's not about them because Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: people want to be involved. They Emily McNulty: Right. Adrian Swinscoe: want to control of their and be a part of their destiny is particularly in an organizational sort of sense. But you're not giving them time and not taking the time to get them involved. And that's the Emily McNulty: Right. Adrian Swinscoe: thing that undermines your success. And so it's a bit Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: like give yourself a break, step off, take a bit of time. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That that's so cool. I love that psychological thinking. But all right, Adrian. So let's dig into kind of like we talked about the crux of this podcast is speaking with drivers. So I always like to ask our guests, like, you're driving your the CX industry forward. Do you have A habit, a a mindset or a lesson that you've learned along the way that you continue to refer back to that you feel like has perpetuated that driver mentality. Adrian Swinscoe: think there's two things. I having a conversation with a client once and it was in that sort of the pitch stage and we're getting to the final kind of thing. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: one of the chief decision makers says, but you're an expert. And I said, actually, I'm not an expert. I don't consider myself an expert. And he was like, but we need an Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: expert. And I said, okay, let me not destroy the whole sort of like. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: ambience here, let me be clear is that you can call me an expert and that's absolutely fine. And I may have relatively more expertise in this domain than yourselves and I'm happy to share Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: that with you. But my point, my mindset is I don't consider myself an expert. I always consider myself a student. Because if I get to the point where I think I'm an expert, then I think it potentially, psychologically closes me off from actually learning. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: so, and related to that, so I think there's a humility, because I really like just researching and thinking and telling stories, enjoying the dots and thinking about how things kind of fit together. And so there's humility element to that, but the thing that really underpins all of that is curiosity. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: I think those are two things and I'm lucky enough that I've been at this for 17, 18 years or so. And Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: so it's given me perspective and an accumulated kind of learning and things. Emily McNulty: Yeah. Adrian Swinscoe: But the other thing that I think that is part of that is understanding what you value, having some principles, having a point of view. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: I think there's too many people that when they don't learn enough and they end up trotting out the same things as other people. But I think having a point of view and not being scared about the point of view that you have and thinking about why it matters and why it's important to you, think is the thing that, because people, we want to hear different voices. We want to hear difference because Emily McNulty: Right. Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: it's the perspective is where the insight is. Emily McNulty: Mm-hmm. Adrian Swinscoe: Right, and so I think, yeah, curiosity, humility, but don't be scared to have a point of view. Emily McNulty: Right. And I think that that latter part that you just discussed is really the crux of the Punk CX analogy too. we have to challenge the status quo because that's where innovation happens and that's where differentiation Adrian Swinscoe: Right? Emily McNulty: happens. but yeah, and love that the curiosity piece. Like if you start to feel yourself being comfortable, like there's always out someone out there who knows more than you that you can learn from. So having that in mind is just gonna continue to push you to seek out that that truth. so love that. Thank you for sharing that message. Really, really great, great insight. all right, Adrian, as I start to wrap us up, are there any initiatives or programs or things that you're working on with Punk CX that you'd like our listeners to be aware of? Adrian Swinscoe: like, no, not really. I mean, my, you can find me if you, if you search for, Adrian Swinsco, in any search engine, you'll generally find me. and on the front of my website, there is my email address and my phone number. And, so the thing I'm interested in is I'm interested in, how do we drive. better outcomes, know, better customer, better employee and better business outcomes. And if we can achieve those three things simultaneously, then we're onto a winner. But within that, it's about people's challenges, understanding a problem. And I'm always open to having conversations with people about some of the problems they have. mean, I promise you, I... I don't sell to people. If we have a conversation and if there's a thing that I think I can help with, I'll tell them I can help, and if it works for them, then it works for them. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But I'll always be generous with my time and insight and stuff because another thing I've come up with is over the course of the years, I feel like I'm in service to service. Emily McNulty: I like that. Adrian Swinscoe: And, so yeah, there's no real issues other than the website publishes articles I published on CX today and CMS wire, the punk CX podcasts go and check that out. And I've got a newsletter and follow me on LinkedIn. And I've got the LinkedIn newsletter called the punk CX dispatch. And so check all those things out and, know, and don't be afraid to say hello. Emily McNulty: For sure. Yeah. All right. Thank you, Adrian, for sharing those opportunities for our listeners. Just to reiterate what Adrian said, you can connect with him. And the way I found you, Adrian, was your LinkedIn, which is awesome. So I suggest right now go find him on LinkedIn at Adrian Swinsco. You can also find him on his other social media profiles on Twitter at Adrian Swinsco, on Instagram at punk underscore CX. His blog and podcast can be found on AdriansWinsco.com. His books, how to wow, Punk CX and Punk XL can all be found on Amazon as well. And Adrian called out, he also has the Punk CX dispatch newsletter on LinkedIn. Adrian, thanks so much for joining me on the Will MacWire today. It was an absolute pleasure speaking with you. Adrian Swinscoe: It's the honor of his own mind. So thank you so much for asking me. Emily McNulty: Thanks, Adrian.