Latest / Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge / Legally Brunette: Sandra Birchmore Pt. 1

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Legally Brunette: Sandra Birchmore Pt. 1 · Two Ts In A Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamra Judge

0:01
Speaker 1: Hi guys, welcome to Legally Brunette. I will be your
0:03
Speaker 1: host today, Emily Simpson with.
0:06
Speaker 2: Shane.
0:07
Speaker 1: Shane. All right, let's get into this case. So we
0:10
Speaker 1: are heading back to February of 2021. A 23-year-old woman
0:14
Speaker 1: named Sandra Birchmore is found dead in her Massachusetts apartment.
0:18
Speaker 1: At first, her death is ruled a suicide and the
0:21
Speaker 1: case appears to be closed. But Sandra's family refuses to
0:25
Speaker 1: accept that something is not right. As investigators dig deeper,
0:29
Speaker 1: disturbing questions begin to emerge. Secrets involving people she knew,
0:33
Speaker 1: a controversial initial investigation, and evidence that would eventually change
0:39
Speaker 1: the direction of the entire case. Years pass before the
0:43
Speaker 1: investigation takes a shocking turn. A former police officer is
0:47
Speaker 1: accused of killing Sandra and making her death look like
0:50
Speaker 1: something it wasn't, but he denies the accusation and the
0:53
Speaker 1: truth must now be examined in court. So how did
0:57
Speaker 1: a case that was initially considered as suicide become a
1:01
Speaker 1: major murder trial? What really happened to Sandra Birchmore? And
1:05
Speaker 1: will the evidence finally reveal what happened behind closed doors?
1:09
Speaker 1: All right, this is the Sandra Birchmore case. Have you
1:12
Speaker 1: ever heard of this case until it just came out recently?
1:14
Speaker 2: No, no, I hadn't.
1:15
Speaker 1: Well, it's back in the news feed, I guess I
1:19
Speaker 1: would say, because Matthew Farwell, the man who is a
1:22
Speaker 1: Stoughton police officer, well, a former Stoughton police officer, is
1:26
Speaker 1: is accused of killing Sandra Birchmore. I first heard of
1:30
Speaker 1: this case when we were diving into the Karen Reed
1:33
Speaker 1: case because it is the same Massachusetts area.
1:37
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:38
Speaker 1: And so when we were diving into Karen Reed, I
1:40
Speaker 1: got several messages from people on Instagram saying.
1:43
Speaker 2: Oh, look in Sandra Birchmore.
1:44
Speaker 1: Look into the Sandra Birchmore case because obviously the Karen
1:47
Speaker 1: Reed case had a lot to do with police... Corruption.
1:50
Speaker 2: You're like, we thought those police were corrupt. Right. Check
1:52
Speaker 2: out this one. He killed someone.
1:54
Speaker 1: Exactly.
1:54
Speaker 2: Well, actually, the other police might have killed someone in
1:56
Speaker 2: Karen Reed too, right? Well, that was always- That's the question.
1:59
Speaker 1: That is the question. That is the question. And you
2:01
Speaker 1: know what? I posed a question the other day on
2:03
Speaker 1: threads on Instagram, and I asked, I just threw out there,
2:07
Speaker 1: I said, out of all the cases out there that
2:09
Speaker 1: have not been solved, what is the one case that
2:11
Speaker 1: you would want to know the result?
2:14
Speaker 2: JFK. Yeah.
2:15
Speaker 1: Oh, that's your case? JFK.
2:16
Speaker 2: I don't know. Is that what people say?
2:18
Speaker 1: No, I mean, it had tons of responses, but I
2:21
Speaker 1: said John Binet, but a lot of people had lots
2:25
Speaker 1: of different responses. Your response would be JFK?
2:27
Speaker 2: No, I thought that's what people were going to say.
2:29
Speaker 1: Oh, no. But a lot of people also said, we're
2:33
Speaker 1: referring to Karen Reid, because it's really interesting because you
2:36
Speaker 1: still don't know what happened in that house that night,
2:38
Speaker 1: and we probably never will.
2:39
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
2:40
Speaker 1: Anyway, it's kind of the same thing with Sandra Birchmore
2:42
Speaker 1: because once we get more into it and we talk
2:44
Speaker 1: about the facts a little bit more.
2:45
Speaker 2: We just get more frustrated?
2:46
Speaker 1: Well, it's just I think I know what happened, but
2:50
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, only one person or
2:52
Speaker 1: two people know what happened and Sandra's no longer with us. So,
2:56
Speaker 1: all right, to understand the Sandra Birchmore case a little
2:58
Speaker 1: bit better, let's first understand or get into the people
3:02
Speaker 1: surrounding her. So, Sandra was a young woman who admired
3:05
Speaker 1: law enforcement. As a child, she joined the Stoughton Police
3:09
Speaker 1: Explorers Program... hoping to learn more about a possible future
3:12
Speaker 1: in police work. But the program would later become central
3:16
Speaker 1: to a case that raised deeply troubling questions about trust, authority,
3:20
Speaker 1: and the relationships between officers and a young participant. So
3:24
Speaker 1: the way I understand that she kind of had a
3:27
Speaker 1: bad home life growing up. I know she lived with
3:29
Speaker 1: her mother and her grandmother. Her mother's no longer with us.
3:33
Speaker 1: I don't think her father was ever in the picture.
3:35
Speaker 1: And I think that her mom... originally wanted her to
3:38
Speaker 1: go into this young explorers program to have some direction,
3:42
Speaker 1: to probably be around people.
3:43
Speaker 2: Role models, good examples. Little did she know it was
3:47
Speaker 2: the Massachusetts Police Department, which is not ideal where you
3:51
Speaker 2: want to send people for role models.
3:55
Speaker 1: Among, well, she wasn't aware of the Karen Reed case.
3:57
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. That's not where you want to
3:59
Speaker 2: send your kids.
4:00
Speaker 1: Among the people that Sandra met were twin brothers, Matthew
4:03
Speaker 1: and William Farwell, along with another officer named Robert Devine.
4:08
Speaker 1: Matthew Farwell would eventually become the central figure in the
4:11
Speaker 1: criminal case surrounding Sandra's death. Prosecutors allege that he sexually
4:15
Speaker 1: abused Sandra when she was underage and later killed her
4:18
Speaker 1: in 2021. He has pleaded not guilty. His twin brother
4:22
Speaker 1: William and Robert Devine also became part of the wider
4:26
Speaker 1: controversy because of allegations concerning their relationship with Sandra as well.
4:31
Speaker 1: Then there was Sandra's family who continued to question the
4:34
Speaker 1: original explanation for her death and sought further accountability. So
4:39
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about this case because originally her
4:41
Speaker 1: case is ruled a suicide. So let's get into the
4:44
Speaker 1: details of it.
4:44
Speaker 2: We did another one like that where it was originally
4:46
Speaker 2: ruled a suicide, right? And then it was questionable whether
4:48
Speaker 2: it was suicide or not.
4:50
Speaker 1: Well, are you talking about, well, there's the Ellie Greenberg
4:52
Speaker 1: case where she allegedly or supposedly was in her apartment alone.
4:56
Speaker 2: She stabbed? Yeah.
4:58
Speaker 1: And then no one would believe it. Remember, it was
5:00
Speaker 1: like stabbed in the back of her neck. I still,
5:02
Speaker 1: my personal opinion is that she did commit suicide. But
5:07
Speaker 1: because a lot of it was surface wounds. Yeah. And
5:10
Speaker 1: people didn't believe that you could stab yourself. But she
5:12
Speaker 1: was also going through like a mental crisis and things.
5:14
Speaker 1: So let's just talk about what happened that day. And
5:17
Speaker 1: then we'll talk about why. First of all, let's just
5:18
Speaker 1: talk about this trial is going on currently. And we're
5:20
Speaker 1: not going to go into details of the trial because
5:22
Speaker 1: I want to save that for a later podcast. I
5:24
Speaker 1: just want to do the background and go over as
5:26
Speaker 1: much as we know and discuss what happened that day,
5:29
Speaker 1: her death, etc., But the reason that her trial is
5:33
Speaker 1: not televised right now, because honestly, if this was televised,
5:36
Speaker 1: I think it would be just as big as Karen
5:37
Speaker 1: Reid or Lindsay Clancy.
5:40
Speaker 2: Well, it may eventually get more publicity if it starts
5:44
Speaker 2: getting coverage and stuff.
5:45
Speaker 1: Well, it's hard to get coverage when it's not televised.
5:47
Speaker 2: No, that's not true. You have the little oil paintings,
5:49
Speaker 2: little sketch artists.
5:50
Speaker 1: Nobody's out there.
5:51
Speaker 2: And someone narrates what happened. No, no. It's not the
5:53
Speaker 2: same thing?
5:54
Speaker 1: It's not the same thing at all. All right. I'm
5:56
Speaker 1: just saying... This is a federal trial. It's not a
6:00
Speaker 1: state trial. So that's why it's not being televised. I
6:03
Speaker 1: think if the state had actually charged him with murder
6:06
Speaker 1: and he was on trial right now, I think it
6:08
Speaker 1: would be televised and it would be huge and everybody
6:11
Speaker 1: would be talking about it just like they did with
6:12
Speaker 1: Karen Reed and Lindsay Clancy. But we're talking about federal court.
6:16
Speaker 1: I wanted to just do a background on this case
6:18
Speaker 1: today because we're actually going to do a part two
6:20
Speaker 1: of this case and we're going to discuss it with
6:22
Speaker 1: Andrea Canning from Dateline. She's followed the Sandra Birchmore case.
6:26
Speaker 1: I know she's done, they've done a 2020 episode on it.
6:29
Speaker 1: I know she's done a podcast on it. She's very
6:31
Speaker 1: familiar with the case. So I was texting her the
6:33
Speaker 1: other day and I was like, are you following the trial?
6:37
Speaker 1: Why don't we have a trial discussion? So this is
6:39
Speaker 1: part one of Sandra Birchmore. We're just going to talk
6:41
Speaker 1: about background and what we know so far, and then
6:43
Speaker 1: we're going to do a second part with Andrea Canning
6:46
Speaker 1: and discuss the trial.
6:47
Speaker 2: Is that where I get booted? I'm here for part one.
6:50
Speaker 1: No, you're here for part two as well. Let's talk
7:02
Speaker 1: about some background. Sandra Birchmore grew up in a troubled
7:06
Speaker 1: yet tightly knit home environment in Stoughton, Massachusetts. Sandra was
7:11
Speaker 1: raised primarily by her single mother, Denise Birchmore, who suffered
7:14
Speaker 1: from ongoing health problems and she never knew her biological father.
7:19
Speaker 1: For much of her youth, she lived with her mother, grandmother,
7:22
Speaker 1: and grandfather in a close-knit family home in Stoughton. All right. Now, Sandra...
7:27
Speaker 1: Is 12 years old. Okay.
7:29
Speaker 2: I want you to- That's very young.
7:31
Speaker 1: Very young. She is 12 years old and she joins
7:33
Speaker 1: the Stoughton Police Explorers just before her 13th birthday. The
7:38
Speaker 1: program is a youth initiative run similar to a junior
7:41
Speaker 1: police academy directed by then Lieutenant Robert Devine, who we
7:45
Speaker 1: talked about earlier when we were talking about players in
7:47
Speaker 1: this case.
7:49
Speaker 2: Before having read about this case- Would you think that
7:53
Speaker 2: signing up your child for an Explorer program with a
7:56
Speaker 2: police station would be a very safe environment?
7:59
Speaker 1: I would feel like that was the safest environment I
8:02
Speaker 1: could put my child into. I would think on a
8:04
Speaker 1: list of safe environments to put my child, I would
8:08
Speaker 1: think Explorer's program at a police station would be at
8:12
Speaker 1: the very top of that list. However, in this case,
8:16
Speaker 1: absolutely not at all.
8:18
Speaker 2: Negative. Negative.
8:19
Speaker 1: During Sandra's freshman year of high school, Matthew Farwell, he
8:23
Speaker 1: begins meeting with her. I believe that they initially, so
8:26
Speaker 1: they met in the Explorers program, but I think he
8:29
Speaker 1: initially starts to have a personal relationship with her because
8:32
Speaker 1: he sends her a Facebook friend request. He's in his 20s,
8:35
Speaker 1: and he's a police officer in this Explorers program. During
8:39
Speaker 1: her freshman year of high school, Matthew Farwell begins meeting
8:42
Speaker 1: with her, and she tells people that he's just helping
8:44
Speaker 1: her with her homework.
8:46
Speaker 2: Okay. physical ed.
8:50
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, how suspicious would you be?
8:52
Speaker 1: Let's say you put Annabelle in like an explorers program
8:55
Speaker 1: and then like a young 20 something year old male
8:57
Speaker 1: police officer is like helping her with her homework.
8:59
Speaker 2: I don't want that. It'd be like, Oh great. That
9:04
Speaker 2: takes that off my plate.
9:05
Speaker 1: Right.
9:06
Speaker 2: But then you have a whole bunch of other problems
9:07
Speaker 2: that come with it. Right.
9:09
Speaker 1: All right. So Matthew is around 27 and Sandra is
9:11
Speaker 1: now 15. This is in the year of 2013. Um,
9:17
Speaker 1: And allegedly, they have sex for the first time. The
9:21
Speaker 1: age of consent in Massachusetts is 16.
9:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, but 16 with how old? With an adult?
9:27
Speaker 1: I think it's four years.
9:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's usually four years. So it's like 16 up
9:31
Speaker 2: to 20-year-olds seeking consent. Right. Yeah.
9:34
Speaker 1: But he's 27.
9:35
Speaker 2: Even that's weird. It's like, who's up there figuring out
9:38
Speaker 2: these ages and be like, I think we can let
9:40
Speaker 2: a 16-year-old sleep with a 20-year-old. That's okay. I mean,
9:43
Speaker 2: who's deciding all this stuff?
9:44
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I understand the point of it
9:46
Speaker 1: is it's because if you're 16 and 17 and you
9:49
Speaker 1: have sex, a 17-year-old shouldn't get in trouble for statutory rape.
9:54
Speaker 2: Right. And then he turns 18 and they go out
9:56
Speaker 2: and have a party and then they sleep together and
9:58
Speaker 2: all of a sudden he's a criminal.
9:59
Speaker 1: So I understand why they do that. that buffer of
10:00
Speaker 1: like four years. I know.
10:01
Speaker 2: California does that too, I think.
10:03
Speaker 1: Investigators later figure out this exact date. They figured out
10:06
Speaker 1: the date was the first time that they had sex
10:08
Speaker 1: and she was a virgin at the time because they have,
10:12
Speaker 1: you know, obviously when they pulled forensics off of his phone,
10:15
Speaker 1: they find, you know, like 40,000 text messages between the
10:18
Speaker 1: two of them. And she actually, there's a June 2020
10:21
Speaker 1: text in which Sandra names the day that she lost
10:24
Speaker 1: her virginity to Matthew, even though he denied having sex
10:28
Speaker 1: with her when she was underage. But there's a text
10:30
Speaker 1: where she basically solidifies the date and her age and
10:33
Speaker 1: that he took her virginity.
10:34
Speaker 2: I'm going to go with her version of the events.
10:36
Speaker 1: Probably. Then one month after he begins having sex with Sandra,
10:42
Speaker 1: he marries his wife, Michelle.
10:43
Speaker 2: Yeah. Are you serious? Yes.
10:48
Speaker 1: Why are you surprised at these men?
10:50
Speaker 2: I'm not surprised. That was laughter. This guy's ridiculous. Why
10:53
Speaker 2: did he bother getting married?
10:56
Speaker 1: I don't know, because he's a cop and he probably
10:58
Speaker 1: is like, that's what you're supposed to do. He's 27.
11:00
Speaker 1: He's going to get married and buy a house and
11:03
Speaker 1: have like the perfect... They end up having three children together.
11:05
Speaker 2: His mistress, it goes to high school? Yeah.
11:08
Speaker 1: This is.
11:09
Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:11
Speaker 1: So after 2013 and going forward, according to the FBI,
11:14
Speaker 1: Matthew and Sandra meet regularly for sex, including in his
11:18
Speaker 1: police vehicles while he is on duty. Dude.
11:23
Speaker 2: This guy.
11:25
Speaker 1: The affidavit says that Matthew introduced choking and staged rape fantasies.
11:30
Speaker 1: It also says that he used sex acts to punish
11:33
Speaker 1: Sandra for bad grades, for lying, or for being with
11:36
Speaker 1: other people. You know, there's also a lot of talk,
11:40
Speaker 1: and this word comes up a lot. It's a lot
11:42
Speaker 1: of allegations of him grooming her because he met her
11:46
Speaker 1: when she was 12. And he has sex with her
11:48
Speaker 1: the first time when she's 15. And these other officers
11:50
Speaker 1: have sex with her as well. So they talk about grooming.
11:53
Speaker 1: So I was like, I wanted to look up exactly
11:55
Speaker 1: what grooming is. And it says it's the deliberate process
11:58
Speaker 1: of building trust, an emotional connection, or a relationship with
12:02
Speaker 1: a child or teen... In order to manipulate, exploit, and
12:06
Speaker 1: abuse them. And that's exactly what happened. He's an authority figure.
12:11
Speaker 1: And these other police officers that she has sex with
12:14
Speaker 1: are also in this program. She idolizes them. She wants
12:18
Speaker 1: to be a police officer. She looks up to them.
12:21
Speaker 1: She's 12 when she starts this program.
12:22
Speaker 2: He's 27. It's not like he's so old. He's probably
12:24
Speaker 2: old enough where she thinks he's kind of mature and
12:27
Speaker 2: a man and can take care of her.
12:30
Speaker 1: So she spends two months in the U.S. Army Reserve,
12:33
Speaker 1: and she then attends a community college in Brockton. Around 2016,
12:37
Speaker 1: this is when Sandra's mother, Denise, she dies at 52
12:42
Speaker 1: years old. And five weeks later, Sandra's grandmother, Claire, dies
12:45
Speaker 1: at 89 years old.
12:46
Speaker 2: So she's a young adult. Now she lost her two
12:49
Speaker 2: adult figures.
12:52
Speaker 1: So her mother's dead and her grandmother is dead. Also
12:55
Speaker 1: around this time, Robert Devine, who previously directed the Stoughton
12:58
Speaker 1: Police Explorers program, is demoted from deputy chief to patrol
13:03
Speaker 1: officer after an internal probe finds that he lied in
13:07
Speaker 1: a harassment investigation involving a woman he was having an
13:10
Speaker 1: affair with. This is also.
13:12
Speaker 2: He's having an affair with another person?
13:13
Speaker 1: Yes, but he was also having sex with Sandra Birchmore, too.
13:18
Speaker 1: I feel like like these police officers were aware and
13:22
Speaker 1: they were just kind of passing her around.
13:25
Speaker 2: Oh, other police officers were aware.
13:27
Speaker 1: I'm saying he was having sex with her too. And
13:30
Speaker 1: Matthew Farwell, who is on trial for committing murder. Her,
13:34
Speaker 1: his brother also had sex with Sandra.
13:37
Speaker 2: No, I understand. I'm sorry. I understand. I met, you
13:39
Speaker 2: think like a lot of people in the police department
13:41
Speaker 2: or you think it was just these two guys? Like
13:42
Speaker 2: you think word was getting around and everyone knew?
13:44
Speaker 1: No, I know the three, there's three, Robert Devine, who
13:47
Speaker 1: I just talked about, and then Matthew and his brother.
13:49
Speaker 1: Those three definitely were having sexual relationships with her when
13:52
Speaker 1: she was underage. As far as what other officers know
13:55
Speaker 1: or knew, I don't know, but I would assume that
13:59
Speaker 1: they probably had some idea of I don't know how
14:01
Speaker 1: you do something like that.
14:02
Speaker 2: I would imagine so, because it's four people in the
14:04
Speaker 2: police department, right? If Sandra is one of them, right?
14:07
Speaker 2: So words got to get around.
14:09
Speaker 1: So Matthew Farwell's twin brother, William, also becomes a Stoughton
14:14
Speaker 1: police officer.
14:15
Speaker 2: He's like, I like this job.
14:17
Speaker 1: Okay, now we get to September 1st of 2019. After
14:20
Speaker 1: taking the state civil service exam, Sandra is added to
14:23
Speaker 1: the eligibility list to become a Stoughton police officer. But
14:26
Speaker 1: can you understand the mental capacity of a 12-year-old girl?
14:28
Speaker 2: Oh, it's awful. She was totally groomed.
14:30
Speaker 1: Who doesn't have a father figure at home. She's raised
14:34
Speaker 1: by her mother who has medical ailments and an elderly grandmother.
14:39
Speaker 1: They die. She's left with no one. She has no
14:42
Speaker 1: father figure. And she has these men.
14:44
Speaker 2: She's had this experience of these men grooming her and
14:48
Speaker 2: teaching her what's not normal as if it's normal.
14:51
Speaker 1: All right, so between 2019 and 2021, and we know
14:56
Speaker 1: this because obviously once there was a federal investigation of
15:01
Speaker 1: Matthew Farwell, they obviously confiscated his phone and did all
15:05
Speaker 1: the forensics and the analytics on his cell phone. And
15:08
Speaker 1: so between this time period of December 2019 and February
15:11
Speaker 1: of 2021, Sandra and Matthew exchanged over 20,000 electronic messages
15:16
Speaker 1: in a little over a year. Their 2019 to 2020
15:19
Speaker 1: texts discuss their sexual encounters and prosecutors say some describe
15:25
Speaker 1: sexual violence. Matthew repeatedly tells her to delete messages from
15:29
Speaker 1: her phone and from Facebook.
15:32
Speaker 2: And delete this message that says delete messages.
15:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
15:35
Speaker 2: And then delete this.
15:37
Speaker 1: And delete this.
15:37
Speaker 2: And now this. He should know he's a police officer.
15:40
Speaker 2: I'm sure he's come across suspects where they take their
15:43
Speaker 2: phones and they know it gets recovered.
15:46
Speaker 1: I feel like that would be basic knowledge that you
15:49
Speaker 1: can do forensics on a cell phone and that you
15:52
Speaker 1: can pull up all of the activity, even the deleted activity.
15:55
Speaker 2: The action of deleting a message is suspicious.
15:59
Speaker 1: And telling people to delete messages and then deleting the messages. Yeah.
16:04
Speaker 1: Between April and December of 2020, William Farwell exchanges sexually
16:10
Speaker 1: explicit messages, photos, and videos with Sandra.
16:13
Speaker 2: Did he say, I want you so bad?
16:15
Speaker 1: Probably. I want you so bad. You like that one.
16:17
Speaker 2: That's your favorite line. We were watching that the other day.
16:19
Speaker 2: True Crime, we were watching and it was like some...
16:23
Speaker 2: affair or something and it was like sending text messages
16:26
Speaker 2: and I was like I want you so.
16:27
Speaker 1: Bad no you're thinking about a podcast that we did
16:30
Speaker 1: and I read off the text messages.
16:32
Speaker 2: No yeah but it's because we saw a documentary because
16:35
Speaker 2: then I sent it to you I know I was
16:38
Speaker 2: like oh this is my pickup.
16:39
Speaker 1: Line yeah so Shane now I want you so bad
16:42
Speaker 1: so now Shane texts me and just says I want
16:44
Speaker 1: you so bad double exclamation point double exclamation point okay
16:47
Speaker 1: thank you All right. So they exchanged sexually explicit messages, photos,
16:51
Speaker 1: and videos. She's 22 at this time, and he's exchanging
16:54
Speaker 1: these messages, photos, and videos while he is on duty
16:59
Speaker 1: as a police officer.
17:00
Speaker 2: She's still young. 22 is still young.
17:02
Speaker 1: Yeah. So we get to October 5th of 2020. Sandra
17:07
Speaker 1: texts a friend that Matthew took her virginity before she
17:10
Speaker 1: even turned 16 and that their sexual relationship has gone
17:13
Speaker 1: on for almost 10 years. She learns that Matthew's wife
17:18
Speaker 1: is pregnant with their third child and due in February
17:21
Speaker 1: of 2021. She drafts a message telling his wife that
17:26
Speaker 1: he has cheated since before their marriage, but she never
17:29
Speaker 1: sends it. I assume that was found forensically on her phone,
17:32
Speaker 1: like a draft. To his wife. In October of 2020. Now,
17:37
Speaker 1: these dates are important because by the time we get
17:41
Speaker 1: to 2021, Sandra's no longer with us. So we're just
17:44
Speaker 1: talking about this time.
17:45
Speaker 2: Period leading up. What month in 2021?
17:47
Speaker 1: So we're in October of 2020.
17:48
Speaker 2: How long until 21 does she?
17:51
Speaker 1: She dies in February of 2021.
17:53
Speaker 2: Okay, so early 21. Okay.
17:54
Speaker 1: So Sandra gives Matthew an ultimatum. She wants to have
17:58
Speaker 1: a child with him. And she keeps the relationship secret.
18:02
Speaker 1: But she is sending him, and this is verified in
18:04
Speaker 1: their text messages through all the forensics. She sends him
18:09
Speaker 1: her ovulation schedule so that they can plan sexual encounters
18:14
Speaker 1: around when she's ovulating so that she can get pregnant.
18:17
Speaker 2: She's like, this Wednesday works great. And he's like, oh, yeah,
18:19
Speaker 2: and I have a shift on that day so you
18:21
Speaker 2: can meet me in the car.
18:22
Speaker 1: In the car. This part really doesn't make any sense
18:25
Speaker 1: to me because he is married and he has children
18:27
Speaker 1: with his wife. So why he's entertaining her? The idea
18:32
Speaker 1: of having a child with her.
18:35
Speaker 2: Well, is he entertaining the idea or is he just
18:38
Speaker 2: keeping her like content?
18:40
Speaker 1: No, as far as I understand it, that they do
18:43
Speaker 1: meet and have sex around this ovulation schedule that she
18:46
Speaker 1: gave him, like unprotected sex. So he's okay at this
18:50
Speaker 1: point having a child with her, even though he's married
18:52
Speaker 1: and he's a police officer. That's the part I don't understand.
18:55
Speaker 2: It appears to be the case.
18:58
Speaker 1: Um, weeks later, they begin to argue over this deal.
19:01
Speaker 1: And Matthew says he agreed to try only once. I
19:04
Speaker 1: guess he was like, I'll give it one shot. And
19:07
Speaker 1: if it doesn't work, we get to November of 2020.
19:12
Speaker 1: Sandra asked Matthew to be present at the birth and
19:14
Speaker 1: sign the birth certificate. She promises not to speak badly
19:17
Speaker 1: about his wife or children.
19:18
Speaker 2: Wait, wait, wait. She got pregnant.
19:20
Speaker 1: They're still just discussing like.
19:22
Speaker 2: Oh, they're planning their first child?
19:24
Speaker 1: They're just planning the logistics of the possibility of them
19:28
Speaker 1: having a child together. So she wants him to be
19:30
Speaker 1: present at the birth, to sign the birth certificate. She
19:34
Speaker 1: claims that she won't speak badly about his wife or children.
19:37
Speaker 1: And he claims that he needs to discuss this in
19:40
Speaker 1: person with her.
19:41
Speaker 2: So with that said, her intention is you can stay married.
19:44
Speaker 2: I just want a baby?
19:46
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you know, he's probably going along with it
19:50
Speaker 1: because he also has to keep her quiet that's the
19:51
Speaker 1: problem you get yourself you paint yourself into a corner
19:54
Speaker 1: when you're having an affair like this for that long
19:56
Speaker 1: i mean think about the information she has on him
19:59
Speaker 1: i mean they've been having sex in his police car
20:03
Speaker 1: since she was 15.
20:05
Speaker 2: Right.
20:05
Speaker 1: I mean, his career is dependent upon.
20:08
Speaker 2: No, his life.
20:09
Speaker 1: His life. Everything is dependent upon her being quiet.
20:12
Speaker 2: His wife, his kids, he should go to jail. I mean,
20:17
Speaker 2: the only obvious thing to do is to kill her.
20:20
Speaker 2: All right.
20:20
Speaker 1: So now we get to December of 2020. Now, Robert Devine,
20:23
Speaker 1: he was another police officer. Remember, he was like the
20:25
Speaker 1: lieutenant in charge of the Explorers program.
20:27
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:28
Speaker 1: He reaches out to Sandra and he arranges an on-duty
20:32
Speaker 1: sexual encounter with her.
20:33
Speaker 2: Do they do background checks on these police officers?
20:35
Speaker 1: Apparently not. But I don't know what kind of thing
20:37
Speaker 1: would show up on a background check if they haven't been,
20:39
Speaker 1: you know, arrested for anything. I don't know. I mean,
20:42
Speaker 1: really what you need to do before you hire.
20:44
Speaker 2: Is ask if they like to have sex with underage girls?
20:46
Speaker 1: No, it's maybe do like a deep dive into their
20:50
Speaker 1: phones or something.
20:51
Speaker 2: Their social media and stuff. I mean, maybe it's a.
20:53
Speaker 1: constitutional violation.
20:55
Speaker 2: No, it's a voluntary thing. You can say, if you
20:57
Speaker 2: want a job here, then hand us your phone. We're
20:58
Speaker 2: going to look at it.
20:59
Speaker 1: Because there's some shady things these guys do with their phone.
21:02
Speaker 1: So anyway, Robert Devine reaches out to her on Facebook
21:08
Speaker 1: because he wants to set up an on-duty... I love
21:10
Speaker 1: how it's an.
21:10
Speaker 2: On-duty sexual encounter. I'm not doing this for free.
21:13
Speaker 1: No, he's not doing it on his free time.
21:16
Speaker 2: I multitask.
21:18
Speaker 1: He uses the alias. Oh, I want to know if
21:20
Speaker 1: you know what this is from. He uses the alias
21:23
Speaker 1: Marty Riggs.
21:25
Speaker 2: Marty Riggs.
21:26
Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh. You should know this.
21:29
Speaker 2: Marty Riggs.
21:31
Speaker 1: Yes. Is that not familiar to you?
21:33
Speaker 2: It sounds like I should know it.
21:35
Speaker 1: You should know it.
21:36
Speaker 2: Give me a hint.
21:36
Speaker 1: It's the Mel Gibson character from Lethal Weapon.
21:40
Speaker 2: Well, considering I haven't watched any of the Lethal Weapon movies.
21:42
Speaker 1: Oh, I thought you liked Lethal Weapon.
21:44
Speaker 2: Why would you? How many times have I watched Lethal
21:48
Speaker 2: Weapon since we've been married?
21:49
Speaker 1: I don't have a chart of all the movies that
21:52
Speaker 1: you have watched.
21:53
Speaker 2: Exactly. So why would you think I like Lethal Weapon?
21:56
Speaker 1: What's the movie that you like that? It's like a
21:58
Speaker 1: police movie. It's like a Christmas movie, but not really
22:01
Speaker 1: a Christmas movie.
22:03
Speaker 2: Oh, Die Hard?
22:03
Speaker 1: Die Hard.
22:04
Speaker 2: Yes. Sorry.
22:05
Speaker 1: I thought.
22:05
Speaker 2: No, correction. It is a Christmas movie. It takes place
22:09
Speaker 2: at a Christmas party.
22:09
Speaker 1: I got Lethal Weapon and Die Hard mixed up.
22:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, big difference.
22:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, I apologize.
22:14
Speaker 2: One is dumb. And one is awesome.
22:19
Speaker 1: Okay, so Die Hard is awesome.
22:20
Speaker 2: Yes.
22:20
Speaker 1: All right, okay, so that's why.
22:21
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get Keller to watch it with me,
22:22
Speaker 2: but he doesn't want to.
22:23
Speaker 1: All right, so that's why you don't know the alias
22:25
Speaker 1: Marty Riggs.
22:26
Speaker 2: No.
22:26
Speaker 1: Sorry. No.
22:27
Speaker 2: John McClane.
22:28
Speaker 1: Okay. All right, now we get to December of 2020.
22:31
Speaker 1: Sandra texts Matthew that she is about three and a
22:33
Speaker 1: half weeks pregnant. So here we go. Now.
22:36
Speaker 2: Okay, hold on. Before you get into it further, because
22:38
Speaker 2: you probably had the answer. Is she really pregnant? Yes. Oh, okay.
22:40
Speaker 2: Never mind.
22:41
Speaker 1: She sends a photo of a homemade celebration poster and
22:44
Speaker 1: says that she is keeping the baby.
22:46
Speaker 2: That's kind of sad.
22:47
Speaker 1: His wife, Michelle, is eight months pregnant at this time.
22:51
Speaker 1: So he has a pregnant wife, Michelle.
22:54
Speaker 2: He's like, I will take care of you during your pregnancy,
22:57
Speaker 2: but first I have to take care of my wife
22:58
Speaker 2: during her pregnancy. And then I will come by and
23:01
Speaker 2: I will take care of you.
23:02
Speaker 1: A fight between Sandra and Matthew follows. Sandra accuses Matthew
23:07
Speaker 1: of being angry because both she and his wife are
23:09
Speaker 1: pregnant and he doesn't know how he'll support two children.
23:12
Speaker 2: What about two women?
23:14
Speaker 1: She tells him he needs to be there when she
23:16
Speaker 1: goes into labor. He calls her the worst person on
23:19
Speaker 1: earth and says that she has threatened to ruin him
23:21
Speaker 1: from the start and change the terms of their deal
23:23
Speaker 1: at every turn. And Sandra threatens to expose their relationship.
23:28
Speaker 2: He had the valid concern that she could expose him,
23:31
Speaker 2: and here she is, quick to do so. Right. As
23:33
Speaker 2: she should.
23:42
Speaker 1: In December 2020, they meet in person. Afterwards, Sandra texts
23:45
Speaker 1: that she was scared he would hit her. So obviously,
23:48
Speaker 1: these are all text messages out of these 40,000 text
23:51
Speaker 1: messages or whatever that we're just getting summaries of.
23:57
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, yeah, 40,000 text messages, of course. We're only
24:01
Speaker 2: getting a sonogram.
24:02
Speaker 1: Okay, we get to 2021, and Sandra tells someone that
24:04
Speaker 1: Matthew said he wished she would die and wanted nothing
24:07
Speaker 1: to do with the baby. She says he put her
24:09
Speaker 1: in a headlock and grabbed her phone. She tells another
24:12
Speaker 1: person that Matthew pushed her to the ground after she
24:15
Speaker 1: showed him a sonogram. Sandra excitedly shares her pregnancy with cousins, friends,
24:22
Speaker 1: and coworkers at East Elementary School. So she lives in
24:25
Speaker 1: an apartment by herself. And I know she struggles. I
24:28
Speaker 1: think it's very difficult for her to pay for the apartment.
24:31
Speaker 1: She works as a teacher aid, not a teacher. So
24:33
Speaker 1: I can imagine that she's not.
24:35
Speaker 2: Income's low, yeah.
24:35
Speaker 1: She's not making very much money.
24:37
Speaker 2: She was like in an explorer program. Then didn't she
24:39
Speaker 2: join the.
24:41
Speaker 1: No, it said she was, she was eligible to be
24:43
Speaker 1: part of like their police department.
24:45
Speaker 2: She never was able to.
24:47
Speaker 1: I don't know. She lost her mom and grandma and
24:48
Speaker 1: she's having enough, you know.
24:50
Speaker 2: She seemed like she was on track to have some career.
24:53
Speaker 1: Well, she's working as a teacher's aide.
24:54
Speaker 2: Okay.
24:54
Speaker 1: And she's not making much money and she lives in
24:56
Speaker 1: an apartment alone. You know, here's what else I was
24:59
Speaker 1: thinking about. He's clearly not financially supporting her in any way.
25:03
Speaker 1: I mean, they're just having.
25:03
Speaker 2: Not based on what you described.
25:05
Speaker 1: They're just having sex and, you know.
25:07
Speaker 2: On the clock.
25:08
Speaker 1: On the clock. She tells one colleague that she and
25:11
Speaker 1: the father will not pursue a relationship. She says the
25:14
Speaker 1: father will be there for the child, but his wife
25:17
Speaker 1: can't find out. And that same month, William Farwell also allegedly...
25:21
Speaker 1: This is the brother... So Matthew Farwell is the 10-year relationship.
25:25
Speaker 2: He's the first guy.
25:26
Speaker 1: William Farwell is his twin brother. And he also allegedly,
25:30
Speaker 1: this is in January of 2021, has a sexual encounter
25:33
Speaker 1: with Sandra, despite later telling police their last contact was
25:37
Speaker 1: in December. So I guess he was lying about his
25:39
Speaker 1: last time he had contact with her, but he had
25:42
Speaker 1: a sexual encounter with her around this time. We are
25:47
Speaker 1: in January of 2021 still. A friend that Sandra confided
25:51
Speaker 1: in calls the Stoughton police to report Matthew's sexual relationship
25:56
Speaker 1: with her. They call to report it. Then this person,
26:00
Speaker 1: instead of like reporting.
26:01
Speaker 2: It to a higher up. Right, they intercepted the reporting, yeah.
26:04
Speaker 1: No, they take the call and then they go to
26:07
Speaker 1: Matthew and they tell him.
26:09
Speaker 2: How would you like us to handle this, sir? Yeah.
26:12
Speaker 1: And then he tells them, don't ever speak about it
26:14
Speaker 1: to anyone. And I guess they followed through with that.
26:17
Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine this police department? Like someone
26:19
Speaker 1: calls and says, one of your officers is having a
26:23
Speaker 1: long-term sexual relationship with a girl and it's been going
26:26
Speaker 1: on for 10 years. And the first time they had
26:28
Speaker 1: sex was when they were 15. And then the way
26:30
Speaker 1: to report it is to go to him and say, hey,
26:32
Speaker 1: by the way, someone just called.
26:33
Speaker 2: How do you want me to handle this?
26:35
Speaker 1: And he says, don't tell anyone. So then Matthew Farwell is.
26:42
Speaker 1: Very angry about this phone call. And then he sends
26:45
Speaker 1: Sandra angry text about her friend calling his job. Prosecutors
26:49
Speaker 1: say this call is when Matthew began planning her death.
26:52
Speaker 1: That's when he probably freaks out. That's probably correct.
26:55
Speaker 2: When he knows how real this is that she can
26:58
Speaker 2: expose him.
26:59
Speaker 1: Right. He was probably having heart palpitations and everything else
27:03
Speaker 1: to know that a phone call came into the police
27:05
Speaker 1: department about his behavior and this relationship.
27:08
Speaker 2: And he knows that saying ignore it doesn't mean she'll
27:11
Speaker 2: never call again and it's going to go away. Now
27:13
Speaker 2: she might just call again or submit evidence or do something.
27:17
Speaker 2: So he now has to figure out. Okay. I kind
27:20
Speaker 2: of smothered it for now, but I got to figure
27:21
Speaker 2: out so it doesn't surface again.
27:23
Speaker 1: January 23rd of 2021. So this is three days after
27:27
Speaker 1: the phone call into the police department. Matthew goes to
27:29
Speaker 1: visit Sandra. His behavior is unusually calm.
27:33
Speaker 2: He's on duty.
27:34
Speaker 1: Probably.
27:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
27:36
Speaker 1: After her friend called the department, he brings Sandra ginger
27:39
Speaker 1: ale and asks for a secret key to her apartment.
27:41
Speaker 1: That's very key here.
27:43
Speaker 2: Key.
27:44
Speaker 1: That's key evidence that he asks her for a key
27:47
Speaker 1: to her apartment. He also looks through her closet and bathroom.
27:50
Speaker 1: He's scoping the place.
27:53
Speaker 2: I look through your closet sometimes.
27:55
Speaker 1: You look through my closet?
27:56
Speaker 2: Yeah.
27:57
Speaker 1: What for?
27:58
Speaker 2: I don't know.
27:59
Speaker 1: You just like to see what I buy?
28:00
Speaker 2: Yeah. I find stuff that still has tags on it
28:03
Speaker 2: and I wrap it up and I give it to
28:04
Speaker 2: you for Christmas. You do? Yeah.
28:06
Speaker 1: Oh, that's so nice.
28:07
Speaker 2: I intercept a lot of, I've intercepted things before in
28:09
Speaker 2: the mail and then you don't even notice that you
28:12
Speaker 2: bought it and it was missing.
28:14
Speaker 1: And what do you do with it?
28:15
Speaker 2: Well, then I eventually give it to you, but I'm like,
28:16
Speaker 2: I could wrap this up and give it to you
28:18
Speaker 2: as a gift. And I know you like it because
28:20
Speaker 2: you picked it. Yeah.
28:22
Speaker 1: That's so nice of you. Sandra tells a friend that
28:26
Speaker 1: the visit made her uneasy and she can't figure out
28:29
Speaker 1: why he checked those rooms.
28:31
Speaker 2: All right.
28:31
Speaker 1: So I think that's very interesting.
28:33
Speaker 2: That's, He was staking out the place.
28:37
Speaker 1: He was staking out the place. He wanted to see
28:39
Speaker 1: the bathroom. He wanted to see the closet.
28:42
Speaker 2: He's like, where do you keep the bleach? Where are
28:45
Speaker 2: your knives? Do you have any body bags in the
28:48
Speaker 2: closet that I could use or do I have to
28:50
Speaker 2: get my own?
28:51
Speaker 1: All right, Sandra has a key copied at Walmart for
28:54
Speaker 1: Matthew and gives him the building's door code. Well, if
28:57
Speaker 1: she was suspicious, this is where she went wrong. If
29:00
Speaker 1: he's in your apartment.
29:01
Speaker 2: He probably schmoozed her and he was like, hey, baby.
29:04
Speaker 1: I just want to be able to come and visit you.
29:05
Speaker 2: You know I love you. I want to see my baby.
29:07
Speaker 2: I want to see my kid.
29:09
Speaker 1: Matthew confirms it's the general code for the building, not
29:13
Speaker 1: one that is specifically assigned to Sandra. So he has
29:16
Speaker 1: a key and he has a code.
29:18
Speaker 2: And he's staked out the closet and the bathroom and everything.
29:22
Speaker 1: On January 30th of 2021, Sandra wants to tell Matthew
29:26
Speaker 1: the baby names that she's considering. He says to save
29:30
Speaker 1: it for when they see each other in person. I
29:33
Speaker 1: do know that on her phone, she had made a
29:36
Speaker 1: list of baby possible baby names that she had kept
29:39
Speaker 1: on her phone that they found when they did, you know,
29:41
Speaker 1: obviously a deep dive into her phone. One of the
29:43
Speaker 1: names was Matthew. So at this point, she doesn't know
29:46
Speaker 1: if she's having a boy or a girl. It's very
29:48
Speaker 1: early on in her pregnancy at this point.
29:50
Speaker 2: Do we, do we know if he was the father?
29:52
Speaker 1: He was not the father. Oh, they did DNA testing
29:56
Speaker 1: later after the fact. And the baby did not belong
30:00
Speaker 1: to him. You know, he probably should have confirmed that prior.
30:04
Speaker 2: Did he know his brother? He knew others were sleeping
30:06
Speaker 2: with her?
30:07
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. I'm sure he knew other
30:09
Speaker 1: police officers, maybe the divine guy that was the lieutenant.
30:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, not his brother.
30:14
Speaker 1: I don't know if he knew his twin brother was,
30:16
Speaker 1: but then I, I don't know. Then I feel like
30:19
Speaker 1: maybe they just treated her like an object and they
30:21
Speaker 1: all knew. And they were all like, Hey, just she'll
30:23
Speaker 1: sleep with you. She's young. She'll sleep with you in
30:26
Speaker 1: the car. You don't even have to like do it
30:28
Speaker 1: in a hotel or, you know, you can just do
30:31
Speaker 1: it right.
30:32
Speaker 2: And you have a great alibi, which is you're at work. Right.
30:35
Speaker 1: I was on duty.
30:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
30:37
Speaker 1: So then late January of 2021, Sandra plans for the baby.
30:41
Speaker 1: She arranges care for her cats for when she goes
30:44
Speaker 1: into labor.
30:45
Speaker 2: All by herself too. She has to do all this.
30:46
Speaker 1: Yeah. She orders baby items and searches online for information
30:50
Speaker 1: on raising a child. She books newborn photos. She plans
30:54
Speaker 1: a Valentine's Day pregnancy announcement and gender reveal.
30:58
Speaker 2: Dang, she's got a lot going on.
30:59
Speaker 1: And she books an OBGYN appointment for February 10th. So
31:04
Speaker 1: she's excited.
31:05
Speaker 2: Yeah.
31:06
Speaker 1: And she's looking into the future. I think these are important, right?
31:10
Speaker 1: That we talk about, because we always talk about with suicide,
31:12
Speaker 1: like when people, you know, were they planning? Even though
31:15
Speaker 1: it's not indicative, because obviously... It's not.
31:17
Speaker 2: I don't find that to be much value, honestly.
31:20
Speaker 1: But I think it shows her state of mind at
31:22
Speaker 1: the time, which is.
31:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was looking forward to the baby.
31:25
Speaker 1: She was looking forward to the baby. She was making
31:26
Speaker 1: lots of plans for the future. All right, let's get
31:29
Speaker 1: to the day. This is February 1st of 2021. This
31:32
Speaker 1: is the day of the.
31:35
Speaker 1: Murder slash suicide. During the day, Sandra tells Matthew that
31:39
Speaker 1: she's getting out of work early ahead of a Nor'easter.
31:42
Speaker 1: Matthew tells her that he will not be in the area. Also,
31:45
Speaker 1: I think it's important to note that this is during COVID.
31:47
Speaker 1: This is 2021. She mentions receiving an early baby gift
31:51
Speaker 1: and says the shower will wait until late March because
31:54
Speaker 1: of COVID. And she asked him to buy clothes for
31:57
Speaker 1: the baby. Also, meanwhile, can we just also reiterate that
32:01
Speaker 1: his wife is like nine months pregnant?
32:03
Speaker 2: Well, I was going to say, the baby could just
32:04
Speaker 2: get hand-me-downs from his other baby.
32:05
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if he thought of that.
32:08
Speaker 2: See, he could have saved himself a lot of stress.
32:10
Speaker 1: All right. 5 p.m., surveillance cameras show Sandra accepting a
32:16
Speaker 1: DoorDash order.
32:16
Speaker 2: There's always a DoorDash right around the murder time.
32:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a DoorDash in the Idaho 4. Remember,
32:24
Speaker 1: the DoorDash driver dropped off.
32:25
Speaker 2: It just seems like.
32:27
Speaker 1: Food and I think that's why they said Zanna wasn't
32:30
Speaker 1: in her room because she came down to the kitchen
32:32
Speaker 1: to get the DoorDash order.
32:32
Speaker 2: I think there was other ones too where it's like
32:34
Speaker 2: there's a DoorDash.
32:36
Speaker 1: It would be interesting to see to be a DoorDash
32:38
Speaker 1: driver because you probably see a lot of weird things.
32:42
Speaker 2: I doubt it. No. You just drop it off food
32:44
Speaker 2: all the time.
32:45
Speaker 1: 5.30 p.m. Sandra steps outside briefly and returns with a
32:49
Speaker 1: snow brush. Is that what you just brush off the
32:53
Speaker 1: windshield with, you know?
32:54
Speaker 2: Probably.
32:55
Speaker 1: Then just after 9 p.m., Matthew texts Sandra asking if
32:59
Speaker 1: he can come by for a second. She says the
33:02
Speaker 1: door will be open. At 9.15 p.m., Matthew enters the
33:06
Speaker 1: building with his hood up, wearing a medical face mask.
33:09
Speaker 1: Have you seen the surveillance of this? There is very,
33:12
Speaker 1: very clear footage, surveillance footage of him entering her apartment building.
33:18
Speaker 1: And he has a COVID mask on, which looks creepy.
33:21
Speaker 1: And he has his hood on.
33:22
Speaker 2: But given the time, that was the problem with all
33:25
Speaker 2: those masks. It was like it gave everyone an excuse
33:28
Speaker 2: to wear one. So you could walk into a bank
33:31
Speaker 2: like that to make a withdrawal and no one would
33:34
Speaker 2: question you. But five years before that, if I did that,
33:37
Speaker 2: I'd be arrested. Immediately. Yes. Yeah.
33:40
Speaker 1: So he comes into, if you have a chance, if
33:42
Speaker 1: you haven't seen the surveillance video, I would say at
33:44
Speaker 1: least just look it up on YouTube and It is very,
33:46
Speaker 1: very creepy to see him come into the lobby of
33:50
Speaker 1: her apartment. I think it's hard to tell who it
33:53
Speaker 1: is because you can't see the face, but I think
33:55
Speaker 1: so many people have identified him and said that's him
33:58
Speaker 1: and that's what he looks like and that's his body
33:59
Speaker 1: type and that's what he wears and all those things.
34:02
Speaker 2: That's the kind of mask he likes.
34:05
Speaker 1: It's apparent that it's him even though his face is covered.
34:09
Speaker 1: So he comes into the building. This is at 9.15 p.m.
34:13
Speaker 1: At 9.28 p.m., a coworker replies to Sandra's Snapchat about
34:17
Speaker 1: whether school will be canceled. Sandra never opens the Snapchat,
34:21
Speaker 1: which the coworker calls very out of character. Just before
34:25
Speaker 1: 9.45 p.m., Matthew leaves the building. So this is 28
34:29
Speaker 1: minutes after he arrived. So there's a very precise timestamp.
34:32
Speaker 2: So he walks in and walks out 28 minutes later?
34:34
Speaker 2: 28 minutes later.
34:35
Speaker 1: So a second took 28 minutes, huh? He leaves the
34:40
Speaker 1: building about 28 minutes after arriving. He is the last
34:43
Speaker 1: known person to see Sandra alive.
34:45
Speaker 2: How soon after, from when he left, was she discovered?
34:52
Speaker 1: Three days later.
34:53
Speaker 2: Three days.
34:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
34:54
Speaker 2: And in that three-day period, you're saying there's no evidence
34:57
Speaker 2: of any kind that anyone had seen her or she
34:59
Speaker 2: had been seen anywhere or anything like that, right? No.
35:01
Speaker 2: It's just his 28-minute little visit.
35:05
Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's just look at a little bit of activity
35:07
Speaker 1: on her phone, which is very telling.
35:09
Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
35:09
Speaker 1: So her cell phone locked at 9.13 p.m. on the
35:13
Speaker 1: same night that he was there, unlocked three minutes earlier
35:16
Speaker 1: at 9.10. Then it locks at 9.13. The phone registered
35:20
Speaker 1: after that about six to eight steps or sensory movement
35:24
Speaker 1: data around 9.10 p.m. with its last recorded movement coming
35:29
Speaker 1: in at 9.40 p.m. He leaves the building at 945.
35:34
Speaker 2: So movement of the phone, not opening or accessing it. Right.
35:38
Speaker 1: Just movement of the phone at 940. He leaves at 945.
35:44
Speaker 1: So then there's no other activity on her phone after that.
35:49
Speaker 2: But the phone was found right with her.
35:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
35:53
Speaker 2: And it had not been used after 940 for three
35:55
Speaker 2: days until it was discovered.
35:57
Speaker 1: At 1158 PM, she gets a text that comes in
36:00
Speaker 1: from a friend and the friend gets no reply.
36:03
Speaker 2: Does that, hold on. Does that give you any doubt?
36:06
Speaker 2: Do you still have doubt? When you hear the story
36:08
Speaker 2: of he went in for 28 minutes, came out, right?
36:13
Speaker 2: And then he staked out the place the day before
36:15
Speaker 2: or whatever, this phone movement, no phone use or any
36:20
Speaker 2: alibis for three days, all circumstantial. You think he did
36:24
Speaker 2: it based on that alone?
36:26
Speaker 1: Well, I think that he did it, but his defense
36:28
Speaker 1: is saying that she committed suicide, which would account for
36:31
Speaker 1: the fact that if her phone locks at 940 and
36:36
Speaker 1: if she killed, let's say, hypothetically, she would have had
36:42
Speaker 1: to kill herself immediately after he left the apartment. And
36:46
Speaker 1: that's basically what the defense is saying.
36:48
Speaker 2: Because she didn't use the phone?
36:50
Speaker 1: Well, maybe not.
36:52
Speaker 2: And the phone didn't even move, right? It's tracking the movement. Yeah.
36:56
Speaker 1: And there's no other activity on the phone at all
36:59
Speaker 1: after that. Right. So I'm saying someone who is an
37:02
Speaker 1: avid user of their phone, a young girl, and her
37:04
Speaker 1: family and friends confirm that she uses her phone all
37:07
Speaker 1: the time. So I'm just saying since there's no activity
37:10
Speaker 1: after that, you can assume that she died around that time.
37:16
Speaker 1: So the defense claims that she killed herself, which would
37:20
Speaker 1: mean that the defense claims that he went there to
37:24
Speaker 1: break up with her. And say he didn't want to
37:27
Speaker 1: have a relationship with her anymore.
37:29
Speaker 2: And as a result.
37:29
Speaker 1: And as a result of that.
37:30
Speaker 2: She killed herself.
37:31
Speaker 1: She killed herself. And so she would have had to
37:34
Speaker 1: have done it immediately. Yeah. That's my point.
37:38
Speaker 2: And what was, and this is, was it gunshots or
37:42
Speaker 2: was it stabbing?
37:43
Speaker 1: No, they claim that she hung herself.
37:45
Speaker 2: Oh, that's right.
37:45
Speaker 1: With a duffel bag strap attached to her closet door. Which,
37:51
Speaker 1: by the way, I don't even know physically or physically.
37:56
Speaker 1: How that even works in order to hang yourself.
37:58
Speaker 2: Sometimes to hang yourself, what you do is you put
38:00
Speaker 2: straps or whatever at the top of the door and
38:01
Speaker 2: between the door.
38:02
Speaker 1: No, I think it was attached to the door handle.
38:05
Speaker 2: So that's one way. And then you close the door.
38:07
Speaker 2: So you're standing. Now I'm giving a tutorial. You're standing
38:12
Speaker 2: and it's wrapped around your neck and you put it
38:14
Speaker 2: in the door and you close the door. Now it's secured.
38:17
Speaker 2: And then you lift up your feet and you kind
38:18
Speaker 2: of hang yourself. Okay.
38:20
Speaker 1: But the way I understand it.
38:21
Speaker 2: That's how Michael Hutchinson died in Australia. You know who
38:24
Speaker 2: he is? No. He's the lead singer of in excess. Oh,
38:28
Speaker 2: he is the belt. And it was actually, actually, I
38:31
Speaker 2: think he, he was either attached to the top of
38:33
Speaker 2: the door. It might've been the doorknob too.
38:36
Speaker 1: Well, this is, I believe the way I understand it was,
38:38
Speaker 1: it was a duffel bag and the duffel strap was
38:40
Speaker 1: around her neck. And then I believe it was attached
38:42
Speaker 1: to the door handle of the closet. And then that's
38:45
Speaker 1: how they found her.
38:46
Speaker 2: So then she just took her weight off.
38:47
Speaker 1: Right. It's kind of like, but then you just like, like,
38:51
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't believe that she killed herself.
38:53
Speaker 2: I don't either, but I'm saying that's how it would
38:54
Speaker 2: be done.
38:55
Speaker 1: His wife gives birth the next day to their third child,
38:59
Speaker 1: which if you want to talk about motive, you want
39:01
Speaker 1: to talk about why he.
39:01
Speaker 2: Felt- Talk about switching gears.
39:02
Speaker 1: You want to talk about why he did it at
39:04
Speaker 1: that time that he did.
39:05
Speaker 2: That's right.
39:06
Speaker 1: He's got a child, his third child's being born the
39:09
Speaker 1: next day.
39:09
Speaker 2: Was he on duty when he did it?
39:11
Speaker 1: I don't know.
39:12
Speaker 2: Do we know?
39:12
Speaker 1: I don't know.
39:14
Speaker 2: Well, you saw the video. Was he in street clothes?
39:16
Speaker 1: He was in street clothes. He was jeans and a hood.
39:18
Speaker 1: He had a hood up over the top of his
39:19
Speaker 1: head and he had a mask on.
39:21
Speaker 2: That's right.
39:22
Speaker 1: February 4th of 2021, at the request of a Sharon
39:25
Speaker 1: Public School resource officer, Canton Police perform a well-being check
39:29
Speaker 1: on Sandra. That's because she didn't show up for work.
39:31
Speaker 1: She's a teacher's aide. They find Sandra dead on the
39:34
Speaker 1: floor by her bedroom closet, seated and reclined rather than
39:38
Speaker 1: suspended in the air. She is wearing the same clothes
39:41
Speaker 1: she wore on February 1st. One end of a U.S.
39:45
Speaker 1: Army duffel bag strap is around her neck and the
39:48
Speaker 1: other is tied to the closet doorknob. This is the
39:51
Speaker 1: same closet that Matthew had inspected earlier. Responders judge that
39:57
Speaker 1: she had been there. She had been dead for days.
40:00
Speaker 1: So this is three days later when they actually find her.
40:03
Speaker 1: How sad is that it took three days to find
40:04
Speaker 1: this young girl because she has no family? She has no,
40:08
Speaker 1: like her mother and her grandmother are dead.
40:10
Speaker 2: She's dead in this apartment. All those guys that slept
40:11
Speaker 2: with her don't care about her.
40:12
Speaker 1: For three days. An ultrasound photo with her name and
40:15
Speaker 1: date of birth sits in the kitchenette of her apartment.
40:20
Speaker 1: Within an hour, local officers tell the medical examiner that
40:24
Speaker 1: there was no foul play. That is very telling. These
40:28
Speaker 1: officers show up, right? Because obviously somebody called 911. And
40:32
Speaker 1: they immediately assess the situation and go, oh. No foul
40:36
Speaker 1: play and it was suicide. The apartment, her apartment is
40:40
Speaker 1: not processed as a crime scene. No DNA is collected.
40:44
Speaker 1: Investigators never compel a DNA sample from Matthew or seize
40:48
Speaker 1: his devices. The investigation is handled by the local Canton
40:52
Speaker 1: police and state troopers assigned to the Norfolk District Attorney's
40:55
Speaker 1: Office under D.A. Michael Morrissey. Also, I do know that
41:00
Speaker 1: they did ask Matthew questions about the, you know, her,
41:04
Speaker 1: the relationship or whatever. Everything was done very, it wasn't
41:07
Speaker 1: done at work in a conference room.
41:09
Speaker 2: Why were they questioning Matthew? Because I'm sure they.
41:12
Speaker 1: Were taking, like, they were trying to do some kind
41:13
Speaker 1: of due diligence or something. They were taking reports, but
41:16
Speaker 1: it was all casual. It was like in parking lots
41:18
Speaker 1: and no notes were taken and they weren't, nothing was
41:21
Speaker 1: actually done. in a thorough investigative type of way. I
41:25
Speaker 1: believe also that there was a necklace that she was
41:29
Speaker 1: wearing that she had had on that was found at
41:32
Speaker 1: the scene, not on her body anymore. And I believe
41:35
Speaker 1: her family had the necklace and took it into the
41:38
Speaker 1: police department and were like, Hey, we feel like this
41:40
Speaker 1: is a piece of evidence. And they never did anything
41:43
Speaker 1: with it. I mean, how telling is that, that she
41:45
Speaker 1: had the necklace on? I think it was like a
41:46
Speaker 1: flamingo or something. And then they found it on the floor.
41:49
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you look for DNA on it? Why wouldn't
41:51
Speaker 1: you look and test it and see if any of the.
41:54
Speaker 2: Because then they might find one of their own people
41:57
Speaker 2: criminally liable. Right. That is why.
42:00
Speaker 1: So days later, while cleaning out her apartment, Sandra's family
42:03
Speaker 1: finds laundry left in the washing machine. A new stroller
42:07
Speaker 1: was still in its box and newly delivered baby items.
42:10
Speaker 1: She probably doesn't know who the father is. I don't know.
42:13
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe she was hoping it was Matthew. Maybe
42:15
Speaker 1: she wanted it to be Matthew. Maybe she thought it
42:18
Speaker 1: was him. I don't know. State police interview Matthew in
42:22
Speaker 1: the parking lot of a Stoughton elementary school. He claims
42:26
Speaker 1: a sexual relationship with Sandra began in 2020, which I
42:29
Speaker 1: don't think that's true.
42:30
Speaker 2: That's funny. They're interviewing in a parking lot at an
42:32
Speaker 2: elementary school about his having sex with a minor. Yes.
42:35
Speaker 2: That seems proper.
42:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. He says he couldn't be the father because they
42:39
Speaker 1: last had sex in October. He admits to visiting her
42:43
Speaker 1: on February 1st, which is the day of the murder,
42:46
Speaker 1: estimating that he was there around 9.10 to 9.30 p.m.
42:52
Speaker 1: He says that he told Sandra he was not the
42:55
Speaker 1: father and that their relationship was over and that he
42:58
Speaker 1: was blocking her on everything. He claims that she was
43:01
Speaker 1: upset but not suicidal and that she was standing in
43:05
Speaker 1: the kitchen when he left. He also says she had
43:08
Speaker 1: been involuntarily hospitalized many times Even though that's not true,
43:12
Speaker 1: it had only happened one time, but he had claimed
43:14
Speaker 1: that it had happened many. I'm sure he was trying
43:16
Speaker 1: to state that she had some, you know, history of
43:20
Speaker 1: mental issues, right? Then we get to February 9th of 2021.
43:24
Speaker 1: This is three days later. He turns over his personal phone. Afterwards,
43:29
Speaker 1: on his police-issued phone, he searches weather. So he turns
43:33
Speaker 1: over his personal phone, right?
43:34
Speaker 2: He should also turn over his squad car so they
43:36
Speaker 2: can test it for DNA.
43:37
Speaker 1: Right. Afterwards, so this is on his police-issued phone, he
43:42
Speaker 1: searches whether deleted iMessages can be recovered by Celebrite. That's
43:46
Speaker 1: the software that investigators use to extract cell phone data,
43:50
Speaker 1: and whether consent can be revoked in Massachusetts. He deletes
43:54
Speaker 1: both searches. So they take his personal phone, then he
43:57
Speaker 1: uses his police-issued phone to Google whether he can delete
44:01
Speaker 1: messages and whether those deleted messages can be recovered by Celebrite.
44:09
Speaker 1: Then we get to February 11th of 2021. William Farwell,
44:12
Speaker 1: that's the brother, he admits to state police that he
44:15
Speaker 1: had a sexual relationship with Sandra lasting into 2020 and
44:20
Speaker 1: says that she told him that Matthew was the father
44:22
Speaker 1: of her baby. Matthew is placed on paid administrative leave.
44:28
Speaker 1: During the leave, he earns a commercial driver's license and
44:31
Speaker 1: forms an interstate trucking company.
44:34
Speaker 2: He's getting paid to To stay off of work. And
44:38
Speaker 2: then he goes and gets another job. Yeah.
44:40
Speaker 1: So he's nice.
44:41
Speaker 2: Got, I mean, I don't know if it's fraud, but
44:43
Speaker 2: if it was like workers comp, it'd be fraud.
44:46
Speaker 1: Right.
44:46
Speaker 2: Cause the idea is, I mean, it's not like he's disabled. So,
44:50
Speaker 2: but that that's crappy. That shows you how crappy this
44:53
Speaker 2: whole paid leave thing is. I understand the reasoning for
44:56
Speaker 2: it because you can't take away someone's, you know, assets
44:59
Speaker 2: or whatever without any proof.
45:01
Speaker 1: Right.
45:02
Speaker 2: But that is just crappy.
45:05
Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, so this is important because the medical examiner,
45:10
Speaker 1: this is May of 2021. Remember, she died February of 2021.
45:15
Speaker 1: So now we get to May of 2021. The state
45:18
Speaker 1: medical examiner rules Sandra's death as a suicide by hanging.
45:23
Speaker 1: The finding is based on the physical scene, her mental
45:25
Speaker 1: health history, her past hospitalization and medical findings, and no
45:29
Speaker 1: charges are filed. So the state medical examiner is like, well,
45:33
Speaker 1: looks like suicide. Actually, the police chief, Donna McNamara, who
45:39
Speaker 1: I think is actually a good human, she did an
45:43
Speaker 1: internal investigation. She hired an outside company to do an
45:48
Speaker 1: internal investigation of her officers. So I think this woman
45:51
Speaker 1: was actually trying to do the right thing.
45:53
Speaker 2: Sounds like it.
45:55
Speaker 1: They did a 19-month internal affairs investigation. The investigation finds
46:00
Speaker 1: that Matthew William and Devine... all had inappropriate relationships with Sandra,
46:06
Speaker 1: and names a fourth person who is also under suspicion.
46:09
Speaker 1: I don't know who that fourth person is.
46:11
Speaker 2: The father. Maybe.
46:12
Speaker 1: Maybe. It says William and Matthew had on-duty physical encounters
46:16
Speaker 1: and sexting with her, and allegedly William tried to introduce
46:21
Speaker 1: her to other men as well. McNamara, this is the
46:24
Speaker 1: police chief. publicly calls for all three men to be
46:27
Speaker 1: decertified from the police force, saying they violated their oaths
46:31
Speaker 1: and should never serve as police officers again. All right. Now, remember,
46:35
Speaker 1: there's no investigation, right? The police are like, oh, we
46:38
Speaker 1: did some interviews in the parking lot. The medical examiner
46:41
Speaker 1: said it was suicide. Open, shut. Here we go.
46:44
Speaker 2: It's your classic duffel bag hanging case. Right.
46:46
Speaker 1: That happens a lot.
46:48
Speaker 2: Yes.
46:49
Speaker 1: However.
46:51
Speaker 1: Sandra Birchmore has an aunt named Darlene Smith who files
46:54
Speaker 1: a wrongful death lawsuit. This is in December of 2022.
46:57
Speaker 1: The defendants are both Farwell's, Divine, the town, and the
47:03
Speaker 1: police department. The suit alleges years of grooming and sexual
47:07
Speaker 1: assault that pushed Sandra to suicide. It accuses the town
47:11
Speaker 1: of negligent hiring and supervision. All defendants deny the claims.
47:15
Speaker 1: This lawsuit is still going on, but I believe it's
47:17
Speaker 1: been paused because of the current criminal trial. So, however,
47:23
Speaker 1: because she files, the aunt files for a wrongful death suit,
47:27
Speaker 1: they actually independently hire a different medical examiner to go over, obviously,
47:33
Speaker 1: all the findings.
47:34
Speaker 2: They're like, everyone in this department's corrupt. Can we get
47:36
Speaker 2: someone from outside the department to help us investigate? All right.
47:40
Speaker 1: So, they hire, the family hires Dr. Michael Bodden, who
47:44
Speaker 1: is a former New York City chief medical examiner, And
47:48
Speaker 1: he rules her death a homicide by strangulation. I guess
47:51
Speaker 1: this guy is a very famous medical examiner. I think
47:54
Speaker 1: he was involved in the OJ trial and he's been
47:57
Speaker 1: in a lot of the very high profile trials. So
48:01
Speaker 1: they went to the top of the.
48:04
Speaker 2: Those two that you listed don't have any defendants that
48:06
Speaker 2: actually served time or found guilty.
48:07
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just saying he's a very well-respected,
48:11
Speaker 1: top of the food chain medical examiner. I don't know
48:13
Speaker 1: where they got the money from because I can't imagine
48:15
Speaker 1: what an independent, you know, to reach out to him
48:17
Speaker 1: independently and ask him to do a full medical examination
48:21
Speaker 1: based upon the autopsy.
48:22
Speaker 2: Reports and everything. Maybe it's not as expensive as you think.
48:24
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know how much that would be.
48:26
Speaker 1: I don't know. Are you talking $ 10, 000? $ 100, 000?
48:27
Speaker 2: No.
48:27
Speaker 1: $ 5, 000? $ 200 an hour? $ 200 an hour? I don't know.
48:29
Speaker 1: I would like to know that. All right, so he
48:38
Speaker 1: rules it a death by homicide by strangulation. Matthew Farwell
48:45
Speaker 1: is indicted on federal charges of killing a witness or victim.
48:49
Speaker 1: Prosecutors allege that Matthew Farwell strangled Sandra and staged a
48:54
Speaker 1: suicide to stop her from revealing federal crimes, which would
48:58
Speaker 1: be coercing a 15 year old into sex, statutory rape
49:02
Speaker 1: and fraud for on duty sex logged as a police officer.
49:06
Speaker 1: He is arrested, pleads not guilty and is held in
49:09
Speaker 1: a Rhode Island detention facility because the charge carries a
49:13
Speaker 1: possible death sentence. A capital case defense lawyer later joins
49:17
Speaker 1: his team. DNA testing. does show that Matthew was not
49:21
Speaker 1: the father of Sandra's baby. Authorities have not publicly named
49:24
Speaker 1: the father. Okay, so now we get to October of 2025.
49:35
Speaker 1: The judge sets the trial for October 5th of 2026.
49:40
Speaker 1: The judge gives the Justice Department until January 20th of
49:43
Speaker 1: 2026 to decide whether to seek the death penalty. We
49:48
Speaker 1: do know the trial has started. There's been several witnesses
49:51
Speaker 1: that have testified. I've followed it a little bit. We're
49:53
Speaker 1: going to talk about it again in part two. A
49:56
Speaker 1: new indictment adds a charge for the death of Sandra's
49:59
Speaker 1: unborn child under the Federal Unborn Victims of Violence Act,
50:03
Speaker 1: known as Lacey and Connors Law. It reveals the baby
50:07
Speaker 1: was a boy and that Sandra was 8 to 10
50:10
Speaker 1: weeks pregnant.
50:11
Speaker 2: Lacey and Connor Peterson.
50:13
Speaker 1: Lacey and Connor Peterson. Which, by the way, if you
50:16
Speaker 1: haven't listened to our episodes on.
50:18
Speaker 2: Lacey and Connor Peterson.
50:20
Speaker 1: Lacey and Connor Peterson. We did a couple on Scott Peterson.
50:24
Speaker 2: And now Emily believes that Scott Peterson might be.
50:28
Speaker 1: I would say I believe that there is a possibility...
50:32
Speaker 1: A reasonable possibility that he is not guilty. I didn't
50:35
Speaker 1: say innocent.
50:36
Speaker 2: May I rephrase that? Based on the evidence.
50:40
Speaker 1: The new evidence.
50:42
Speaker 2: There might be reasonable doubt.
50:44
Speaker 1: Yes, reasonable doubt.
50:45
Speaker 2: In the legal standard. Yes. And he may not be
50:49
Speaker 2: guilty by matter of law. Right.
50:52
Speaker 1: That's what I would agree to.
50:53
Speaker 2: Not saying innocent. Right.
50:56
Speaker 1: On November 21st of 2025, Matthew is arraigned on this
51:00
Speaker 1: new indictment. He waives his appearance and not guilty pleas
51:03
Speaker 1: are entered. Attorney General Pam Bondi directs prosecutors not to
51:08
Speaker 1: seek the death penalty. Sandra's family welcomes this decision because
51:12
Speaker 1: they expect the case to move faster. I guess they're
51:15
Speaker 1: okay with life in prison without parole. Yeah. I don't know.
51:19
Speaker 1: What do you think?
51:20
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. Maybe they figured the cop
51:22
Speaker 2: in prison. They won't do too well.
51:24
Speaker 1: That's true. Matthew, who had initially agreed to be held,
51:29
Speaker 1: asked for release on a $ 50, 000 bail to live with
51:31
Speaker 1: his mother in Mansfield, Massachusetts. His lawyers cite his jail
51:36
Speaker 1: job cleaning toilets, his clean disciplinary record, and the fact
51:40
Speaker 1: that he never fled Massachusetts are reasons why he should
51:43
Speaker 1: be granted. Because he cleans toilets. Yeah, because he cleans toilets.
51:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, he also sleeps with minors. Yeah. And he possibly
51:48
Speaker 2: kills people. Right. That might be a reason not to live.
51:51
Speaker 1: With his mom. Right. He is denied bail. And prosecutors
51:56
Speaker 1: reveal new DNA evidence that they say conclusively ties Matthew
52:00
Speaker 1: to the scene and to the murder weapon. I do
52:03
Speaker 1: know that his DNA was found on the strap.
52:07
Speaker 2: Of the duffel bag.
52:10
Speaker 1: However, I do believe that there was other DNA found
52:12
Speaker 1: as well besides hers.
52:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a tough one.
52:14
Speaker 1: So that is a tough one.
52:15
Speaker 2: Because he's like, well, I've been sleeping on there for
52:17
Speaker 2: five years. I touch her duffel bag all the time. Right.
52:20
Speaker 1: She brings the duffel bag.
52:21
Speaker 2: I touch lots of things over there. Right.
52:24
Speaker 1: A magistrate judge denies bail, calling the evidence very strong,
52:27
Speaker 1: if not overwhelming. And she agrees with prosecutors that he
52:31
Speaker 1: likely stayed in town because he believed he'd gotten away
52:34
Speaker 1: with it. So on October 5th of 2026, just recently,
52:38
Speaker 1: the trial begins in federal court in Boston. It is
52:42
Speaker 1: the trial of Matthew Farwell. And the murder of Sandra Birchmore.
52:47
Speaker 1: So we will continue to follow the trial. It's ongoing.
52:50
Speaker 1: I followed it a little bit just reading about.
52:52
Speaker 2: Did they say how long they expect the trial to be?
52:53
Speaker 1: I think they said 20 days.
52:55
Speaker 2: 20 days?
52:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, 20 days.
52:57
Speaker 2: And no one else is being charged or anything, right?
52:59
Speaker 2: It's just him?
53:00
Speaker 1: I believe this trial is just him. I don't know.
53:02
Speaker 1: I mean, there's still the wrongful death suit out there.
53:04
Speaker 2: No, I guess I meant the sex with a minor.
53:07
Speaker 2: Is that going anywhere?
53:08
Speaker 1: Well, those other guys were suspended and taken off the
53:12
Speaker 1: force and... I don't know if there's any criminal charges
53:15
Speaker 1: that have been filed against them.
53:16
Speaker 2: Probably not. It's like your punishment is you don't have
53:18
Speaker 2: to come to work today.
53:19
Speaker 1: Any further thoughts on Sandra Birchmore?
53:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, I learned a lot more about the Explorer program
53:26
Speaker 2: than I ever thought I knew.
53:27
Speaker 1: Well, now we know that if there's any Explorer program
53:30
Speaker 1: around here that our children are.
53:31
Speaker 2: They should do a background check on the police officers
53:34
Speaker 2: that run the Explorer program.
53:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, they do, though.
53:39
Speaker 2: I know, but it didn't do anything.
53:40
Speaker 1: I know they need to do a social, like you said,
53:42
Speaker 1: they need to do a social media deep dive or
53:44
Speaker 1: like a phone.
53:45
Speaker 2: Well, you know, there's too much, I'm guessing you didn't
53:48
Speaker 2: mention it, but I'm guessing there's too much one-on-one time.
53:50
Speaker 2: Like you can't have, you, you should have, okay. Like
53:54
Speaker 2: when I worked for target and if I arrested someone
53:57
Speaker 2: that was a female, I couldn't pull her into my
54:01
Speaker 2: office until I grabbed another female employee. And I didn't
54:05
Speaker 2: want to Until I had someone there. You need, like,
54:09
Speaker 2: and it holds me accountable. Not that I was going
54:11
Speaker 2: to do anything, but it holds me accountable. Right? And
54:14
Speaker 2: then she serves as a witness in case I get
54:16
Speaker 2: a false accusation against me. So, these Explorer programs, I'm
54:20
Speaker 2: going to guarantee you. There was too many loose ends
54:25
Speaker 2: where adults were hanging out with kids and you can't
54:27
Speaker 2: have that. You can't have like one-on-one or one adult,
54:30
Speaker 2: multiple kids. You got to have multiple adults.
54:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, but even if there was a checks and balances
54:33
Speaker 1: like that, he was reaching out to her on Facebook
54:35
Speaker 1: and meeting her outside of the program. It's really just
54:39
Speaker 1: the network of these men that were... were grooming her
54:43
Speaker 1: and using her.
54:44
Speaker 2: No, no, no. It's awful. And I'm not, I'm not
54:46
Speaker 2: excusing the men. I'm saying they fell short in caring
54:49
Speaker 2: for the kids in the Explorer program by not having
54:52
Speaker 2: proper adult supervision. You have multiple adults around. It might've
54:55
Speaker 2: deterred it or someone might've been suspicious of their interaction
54:59
Speaker 2: and reported it no one reported it that.
55:01
Speaker 1: Is a sad thing i would like to know how
55:03
Speaker 1: many male officers were a part of it how many
55:06
Speaker 1: female officers were a part of it and how many
55:09
Speaker 1: people had some inkling that something was going on and
55:11
Speaker 1: it was never reported i don't think anyone ever said
55:15
Speaker 1: anything All right. Thank you guys for listening to Legally Brunette.
55:20
Speaker 1: If you have any recommendations of cases that you would
55:22
Speaker 1: like us to talk about, please find me on Instagram
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55:32
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