Latest / Skin Anarchy / The Science Of Anti-inflammatory Aging With AveSeena Skincare founder. Dr Ebru

Transcript

The Science Of Anti-inflammatory Aging With AveSeena Skincare founder. Dr Ebru · Skin Anarchy

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of Paker Anarchy.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very special episode.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so so excited.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I have been literally obsessed with this brand since I discovered them.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: And a huge shout out to Elise Tabin, who is the my favorite uh beauty editor and journalist of all time, and a very dear friend.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: So she actually introduced me to the brand when I first um saw them and I knew immediately.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I have to reach out and I have to try and get them on the show.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we are here today with Ave Sina's founder, Dr.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Ebru.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, Dr.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Ebru.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be hosting you.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me, Dr.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Ecta.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's an honor and a pleasure to be here.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I cannot tell you how excited I am to finally be talking.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone listening, before the episode started, we had such a lovely conversation already about so many things.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I know this episode is going to be just jam, you know, packed with like knowledge, fun.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be really great.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't wait for you guys to really discover the line.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I really encourage all the listeners out there as we're going through the interview, check out the brand.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, you can even just google the name, you know, it's A-V-E-S-E-E-N-A.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And just, you know, check them out and go through the products as we're talking because that helps you also follow along with the products that we're discussing and the things that we're talking about.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, with that said, Dr.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Ebru, I want to get started and learn about you.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I really want to learn about where Avicenna started and just the whole journey, if you could get us started with the walk down memory lane.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, let me talk about who I am, what I do.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um I'm politically incorrect and very funny.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: So let's entertain the guys here.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a pathologist and uh with a training in molecular immunology and expertise in sex hormones, estrogens helping impact the immune system, inflammation, autoimmunity, you name it.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, how will a person from immunology get into skincare?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the story.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was doing my PhD, and it is fun, you know how it is.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I was stressed out, the wazoo, and I was trying to get my acne, everything in control.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I purchased a certain brand, which I'm not gonna name here, and it was on my 30th birthday, and and there's my age coming out.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I used it and my face turned great.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not kidding you, great.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And my husband is looking at your face is great.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, this is not normal.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I started the cystic acne.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I started reading into this of immediately stopped everything, but you know, being a researcher in immunology and my face breaking out, I started reading into this.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I first thing I realized, and back then, parabens, and nobody was talking about parabens back then, you know, and how estrogenic they are and how they can accumulate in your fat tissue.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I started reading more and more into the ingredients, and I'm looking at it, and there was a skeleton for a cream or a cleanser, and way at the end there's one active, and I am they're marketing that active, but that active is what 0.5%, something like that.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I started working on the you know, skincare formulations, experimentation, and all that.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I started developing my own cream for myself completely, and it's working, it's great.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Then I went back home, and my dad was diagnosed with cancer, lung cancer, and uh he was a transplant surgeon.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he passed away two years ago.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he wanted a cream, he wanted his specific cream because you know how uh chemotherapy and radiotherapy dries out your skin.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I took it back and I gave it to him, and uh he puts it on and he turns red.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not kidding you, completely red.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he's shouting at me and he's mad at me.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: He says, You brought the wrong thing.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, No, no, no, it's the exact same thing.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking at the ingredients, and this is a mass-produced cream from here, and I took it back home to Turkey to him, and I'm like, Dad, look, it's the same thing.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, No, no, it's wrong.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know how surgeons are, they're the worst patients, and they know everything, you know, and then I was like, wait a minute, I'm gonna bring you something, put this on.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're already read, it's not gonna get worse than this.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I gave him my cream, we put it on.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, he's mumbling the whole time, and then I escaped to my room.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just watching a movie, you know, praying to God or whatever universe.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I hope this will fix it.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he calls me back in 40 minutes and he's like, What did you do?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Oh god, I'm so in trouble.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And he shows me his arm, the redness is gone.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Whatever you're doing, keep it up, kid.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And he gave he came up with the name, he started looking in the ingredients, and all day we talked about cosmetic industry, estrogen, how he's seeing all these differences in his patients and all that.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how everything started.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because I wanted to do something good for all the people out there.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: That was it.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: I oh wow, that is such an unexpected turn.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was expecting you to tell me, like, well, he hated it.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he could have.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't see, I mean, it's so crazy, and you're so right.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is what a what a wonderful, you know, critic to have, though, because he was part of the, you know, like, I mean, yeah, surgeons are the best critics, I feel like, because that's all the point.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: My mom is an oncologist slash pathologist.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we have you really had it then.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, I have it hard.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean, I you know, I'm glad though that you were able to see that in.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: See, I feel like the best brands come out of like personal experience, is what I'm trying to say.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like when you have that experience and you're able to make a difference in your own like intimate circle, whether it's on yourself or your family member, you're like immediately like, okay, this, I gotta get this out there.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's I like hats off to you for really, you know, coming up with a solution and being solution-minded, which I mean, I think as a scientist, we're trained to be like that.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, I look at the world, Dr.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Ever, and I literally am just always floored away with like how many people aren't like that, you know what I mean?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wonder, like, why are we not making any progress?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe because we're not thinking of solutions.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: We just keep making the same products over and over again, you know.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like I a f uh a few podcasts ago, I said to somebody, I said, I feel like we have a lot of packaging in this industry and we don't have stuff, you know what I mean?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I really stand by that.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I'm so enthusiastic about your line because it's it's really, really great.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And not only that, but it actually has a purpose behind it, which is this like immunology focus.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wanted to say that just so everyone listening, you have a little bit of frame of like, I'm a huge fan because this is actual real innovation here.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just another line and it's not doing the same thing everything else is doing.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a real there's a purpose here.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, with that said, I want to move into that, you know, about this.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: You had started discussing the whole um immunology aspect of things.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to discuss that with you, like, you know, where um you really saw the industry when you first started, you know, and and when you were crafting your brand.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you know, this is the 80s and the 90s approach, having one hero ingredient to solve one problem.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, economically, it makes more sense, right?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're spell you're selling more products, but a good formulator can pack a lot of good ingredients that are needed for the skin in one formula and come up with a multitasking, multi-functional formula, right?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that will be ideal because you know, you know it yourself.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: When you are like washing your face, you're putting the mask, and during COVID, everybody experienced this touching your face, touching your face.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: We broke out faster.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: We had mask me.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: What does that tell you?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to touch your face a lot, it doesn't make it so 10-step skincare.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's nice, marketing-wise, but does it really help you?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, given that, I think the industry is changing, which is good.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, skin minimalism is coming up more and more.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, clean beauty is coming up more and more.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: There, I want to also note that not everything natural is good, not everything synthetic is bad.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: The combination of both is ideal, which I like.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I'm seeing, but I think indie brands are driving this development right now.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I'm feeling.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, I think so too.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're absolutely like, you know, you really nailed it when you said that.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, it's really about finding a balance.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that's the that's really the theme that I think a lot of people and especially consumers, um, I hope are eventually going to be gravitating towards.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, with that in mind, I obviously, you know, a field like immunology, when you consider it and you look at it, I mean, balance is, you know, literally the the role that you want to see, you know, fulfilled, right, at all times.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to kind of go in that direction and talk to you about, you know, like autoimmunity, like, for example, you know, like I know that there's a lot of people out there, we have um all sorts of immunological issues going on in our body at all times.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us know about it, some of us don't.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for me, I was diagnosed with something like Hashimoto.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when we talk about autoimmunity on the skin, I would love for you to talk about, you know, how your body's immune system really plays a role, how it influences your skin health, um, you know, whatever you think is important to address here.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start with, you know, the sensitive skin aspect.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So last one, last two years, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's talking about sensitive skin like nobody had it before.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the thing.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: You may have normal skin today, normal acting skin today, and something can happen.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: You may get stressed out, and tomorrow you have sensitive skin.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's immune.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one thing.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go into the immunology of things.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody talks about skin barrier, but however, there's not one barrier, there are four barriers.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And here is how, and we're going to go into the immune system from that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, from the outer surface to the underneath, we're starting from the top.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: You have your skin microbiome.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's your ecosystem where you have the good microbiome, good microbes, uh bacteria uh that are keeping the barrier under control, and it's talking to your cutaneous immune system, right?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And by populating that surface, it is blocking for the opportunity bacteria to live there.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that's your first barrier.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Then comes your chemical barrier, where you have your moisture and your acid mantle of the skin, and this inhibits the growth of these bacterial pathogens.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have your physical barrier, keratinocytes, making the physical barrier and preserving the skin by forming pipe junctions.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you have your immune cells also there secreting cytokines when needed.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And here comes the fourth one, and I call it the king or the queen, but it's the ruler of all your immune barrier because it's composed of the innate and adaptive immune cells.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they sense anything that's bad to the skin, you know, and protects you against pathogens and mount memory responses just in case the same pathogen comes back and says, Hey, I'm here.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then say, Oh, yeah, I saw you, bye-bye, I remember you.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what it does.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So in that case, your skin immune system is your first line of defense against everything external environment, microbes, aggressors, all that.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: So how does that work?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it works silently, it works uh silently behind the doors, so you don't see it.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: But once you start seeing signs on your skin, like irritation, rash, allergies, autoimmunity, that's like the skin immune system talking to you and says, Hey, I can't handle this anymore.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: For example, you put a cream on, you got an allergy, you're itching.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Until that point, your skin immune system tries to regulate that, tries to manipulate that and keeps it under control.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if it can, you start itching.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's in a way talking to you.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Get this off me.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like this.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is bad.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so intriguing that you divided that up into like four real barriers.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're so right.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's it's interesting to see like how you know the skin is able to do that because I know that within the body, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about things like you know, within your blood supply and within your serum and all this, you have all this going on all the time, you know, everywhere in the body.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And but when we talk about skin, I never see anyone talking about the immune system.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I never I never see anyone really bringing up uh, you know, actual regulators of of immune response.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, the only time I really see it come up is when I see, for example, someone has like an anaphylaxis reaction or something, you know what I mean?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then everyone's like, oh God, you know, you got hives all of a sudden, and now we have to discuss it.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: But really, I get so intrigued because as you know, like, you know, aging and inflammation aging and all these topics really are important because you have inflammation going on at all times.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know sometimes when it's happening.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, what are what are your views about that?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like this long-term concept of like the immune system being triggered and then causing you know downstream downstream effects.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's go into that.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very important thing.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, in general, these days, you know, you're gonna see more on social media and print media that they're talking about inflammation and anti-inflammatory reactions.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: However, they're deeming most of the time, because it's I guess sexy, inflammation is bad.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: But inflammation is not bad.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Inflammation is a fundamental part of our immune response.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is our protector, it combats against infections, injuries, all the possible harmful stimuli you can think of.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's necessary, and in acute form, you know, it's necessary for the defense.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it is not bad.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: However, the problem problems arise when the inflammation becomes chronic or persistent.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: So inflammation is good when it's you know in acute phase, a microbe comes in, it goes up, it gets rid of the microbe, goes down to its normal levels.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: But when you have chronic or persistent inflammation, now that is a problem.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: This low-grade chronic state of inflammation, we call that inflammatoring.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a combination of two words, inflammation plus aging, because it can do one, two things.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's a nice play in this word.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: So as we age, we get more inflammation, inflammation-related problems.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the inflammation and aging.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: However, inflammation, uh, like chronic inflammation, also causes aging of the tissues, skin aging.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So this word actually keeps two points in itself.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what does a chronic inflammation do?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look only in the body, not skin.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it can cause cellular senesis, cellul death, and it can be implicated in pathogenesis of most age-related diseases like diabetes, atherosclerosis, cardiovascular disease, cancer, and all that.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: But when you look at the skin aspect of it, you know, it causes premature aging.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that's probably why you won't realize what's going on once you start experiencing all this.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it's also can referred to as a silent condition because it's difficult to detect.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: For example, you can tell in uh mid-age women do they have chronic inflammation.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Here are a couple of symptoms.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: You let me know if they sound familiar.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Constant fatigue, constant joint pain, weight gain, headaches, non-stop headaches, mood change, skin sagging, A spots, uneven skin tone texture as you get older, or when you're more stressed, or with poor lifestyle choices like eating fast food all the time.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm guilty.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I eat fast food, and it affects me.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So these do affect your body and it mirrors on the skin.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that I mean, that's so intriguing to me because I I agree with you.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's interesting, especially right now, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: When we look at the evolution of the skincare industry, at least as me as a consumer, when I'm looking at it, I am intrigued by everything you said because I feel like these concepts have always obviously been there.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: But now I think consumers are realizing like, wait a minute, you know, what I'm doing to my skin is not just the overnight yes or no reaction thing I'm looking for.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I'm I'm people are no longer, I don't see them saying, oh, I need overnight results, because I think consumers are starting to understand the role of, you know, we really need to kind of gear this long-term result, uh, you know, or drive our, you know, skin gear habits towards long-term results.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I feel like this is so, so pertinent, you know, in understanding this uh whole concept and this uh, at least from a consumer standpoint, right?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, understanding the overview of enzyme aging, because you won't, I mean, obviously we can't all be immunologists, but to understand that this is a long-term goal you should have, which is to keep your body in like homeostasis as much as possible.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, that's really important for the consumer.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I really want to, I want to pivot into uh obviously not, you know, a little bit here, because I think for me, when I first tried your line, what really stood out to me was I do have sensitive skin.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I am one of those people that recognizes, you know, as you mentioned, we we might not know or we might not recognize it or say it or we might not even have it, but I do.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And when I try products, I can immediately tell, you know, similarly to what you had described in the beginning of the interview, you know, where your skin turned gray.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had that reaction too with one, a brand very early on, you know, I was like a teenager.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so even now, when I try products, I'm always looking for, you know, how they say like patch test, like always patch test something.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always doing that.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, because I'm scared, you know, like I'm scared that it's going to cause a reaction that maybe someone doesn't even understand how it works, but it's gonna do that.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I tried your brand, I was blown away because I was not only obviously it was great for my sensitive skin, but it was also really, really nice to see that I was noticing whatever you would label that overnight, like you know, immediate effect, you know, you would say I noticed that in the sense that my skin was plumped, it was hydrated, it looked fresh, like as if I had refreshed it, you know what I mean?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I immediately was like, okay, this is real stuff, you know what I mean?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is really, really well thought out, whatever is in here.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to talk to you about that.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how did all of these principles play into when you were crafting the line?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what did you want your pillars to be?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And how did all this play into that?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: I want to note something there.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: You said something very nice.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're you defined this vicious cycle of skincare usage, you defined it to the teeth.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And here is what it is.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say you use the product and you have sensitive skin, and your skin would be more sensitive than others because you have um Hashmadow's, and it would respond to your immune system will respond faster than a regular person because it's already geared to response, but you are sensitive.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you use the product, and let's say it didn't work, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there is this little thing about does inflammation cause sensitive skin, or insensitive skin cause inflammation, right?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's two ways.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's two ways.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: So inflammation can lead to sensitive skin and increased sensitivity.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: However, sensitive skin will lead to more inflammation.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the biochemical cellular molecular pathway of it.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's one cycle there.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: The other cycle is the mental part of it.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody talks about this, but when you use any skincare, yes, it's supposed to work on your skin, it's supposed to help your skin, but it's also supposed to relax you mentally.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to think about it.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: You should not think about it.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you should not be stressed about it because the moment you're stressed, you're going into inflammation.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: You are going to inflammation, you're making things worse.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's the pillars.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you said.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's the pillar of things.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like okay, it's nice to put as a skincare out there.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, nice packaging.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody has pretty packaging, but what's inside of it?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is it making you happy as a founder, as a formulator?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is it making the user happy?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is it making the user skin happy?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is it making the users mentally happy?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Does she feel like, okay, this is the cream, and she doesn't have to think about it?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that was my pain point.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: I hate reading the ingredients every time I pick up what is in this, you know.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know most of the ingredients, nearly all of them, and I'm like, yeah, maybe I should not use this.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: For example, I break out with titanium dioxide.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: I break out on the spot, and I can't use anything with it, and I have to read it.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't want people to go through this.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: I would that was the point of a vicina, you know.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Try to eliminate this pain point as much as possible so you don't have to worry.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: You take your cream, you use it, you feel it works, you're happy, the scent makes you happy, the texture makes you happy, the ingredients make you happy, you feel safe and happy.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole thing.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about the wellness.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I can't make you happy, what's the point of having a skincare brand?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And also, you know, can I just say, like, I mean, I I look at El Cena as like a maintenance line, awesome.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like an everyday, like go-to line.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something I feel like in this industry we see very little of, you know, sometimes because there's a lot of people out here making a lot of actives, you know, and that's the products, you know, in their whole line.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't tell you how many times I come across brands where I'm like, well, you've got five AHA serums here.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what am I gonna do with all this?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't need that many actives in my routine, you know, I don't need like constant exfoliation of my skin, you know.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I find it to be so intriguing because, you know, what when I look at your line, I see a line that can be used every day by whoever, you know, if you're a person that wants a line that's you, you know, you can go to it every single day.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And this is your routine, and this is what you're gonna use.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I really see you guys as such a standout brand because it's formulated in a way that for me, like long-term goals, again, going to the long-term goals, it's sustaining good skin health.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I was, you know, when I had asked you about the inflammator aging, I was very, very interested because I'm not, like you said, I'm as a consumer not worried about it.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Using your line.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not worrying about what is this doing to my skin underneath that I'm not seeing, you know, it's not like it.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I find myself, you know, like when I first started the podcast, for example, I'll give you an example.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: There were so many products, right?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people send you products, you try them, whatever.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I went through this period where I was like, Ecta, you have to stop using these exfoliating products because I kept, you know, I looked at my routine and I realized, oh my gosh, I'm exfoliating this many times a week, or I'm using this much, you know, like these harsh chemicals this time this many times a week.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it became this problem just because, you know, of the fact that I was testing products out, right?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it was almost as if I had to go backwards.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And my only solution there was stop all skin care.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like just stop all of it.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like just don't use anything, let your skin reset.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember even thinking this, you know, be long before I discovered you guys, I was like, I wish there was just a line I could just put on my face right now that would not irritate me.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And just leave my skin alone, but still replenish it and moisturize it, nourish it, and all the good things we want it to do without this inflammatory reaction to occur.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where I'm like, I love what you did here, you know what I mean?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's what we need more of.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And as much as we think that, you know, if you have acne, or you know, if you're listening in and you have something like rosacea, acne, eczema, and you're just, you know, constantly trying new products, as much as you think that you're doing benefit, sometimes you could be harming yourself more because you haven't found that stabilization yet.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where I feel like what you're doing here is really filling a white space.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's filling that white space of this is the stability that we need, you know, a stable line of products that you can go to day in and day out, and you know you're not going to be damaging your skin, but you're gonna be replenishing it, you know.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole point.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: You you summarized it great.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and all the diseases you mentioned, like uh the challenge skin challenges, uh, acne, rosacea, all that, they all have an inflammatory component to it, and they're very stress related.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an acne victim myself.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm above, like, I'm above 45, and let's leave it at that.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I break it out, and I and my husband picked up you so look so young, and I'm like, You better go away now.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is not working.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, you do though, you look so much younger than that, by the way.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you break out, you know, acne is related to the teenager years and all that, but still, even when you get older, when you stress out, it comes back, you can't get rid of it, it's always there.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: And when you talk about the activist, I completely agree with you.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when, and this is a general suggestion to all formulators out there, I would highly recommend them to go on the PubMed and look at the papers.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there is a wealth of information, for example, niacinamite.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: There is not one paper above five percent.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Five percent, there's no papers.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why there's no papers?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: They can't do it because any sometimes some activists, the more you put it, the more sensitizing it gets.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I need 20% on my face?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I need a powdered niesinamite as a consumer if I'm not circulating?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: What am I gonna do with it?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, powdered vitamin C, you know.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the things like that.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, not everything in excess is good.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: We need everything in moderation because then your skin is gonna say, I don't need this, why are you putting this on me?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's gonna exactly it's gonna bother you.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, not only that, but also like you brought such a good point up because I feel like we are chasing efficacy, right?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're constantly chasing efficacy, and we're like, oh my gosh, okay, this is stabilized vitamin C.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: It must be the most efficacious thing.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do we even take the time to define efficacy?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't think of the last time I saw any dermatologist or anybody really sitting down and saying, this is what effec being efficacious means.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I have a problem with that because I see exactly what you just said.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: I see consumers doing this where they're like, oh my God, yes, 20% niacinamide, you know what I mean, 35% vitamin C.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh my gosh, why?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like more is not going to fix your problem.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to irritate you.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: But more importantly, what do you define as true efficacy for you?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: It varies.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, that's the that's the problem.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have a standard, there's no standard of efficacious, guys.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm trying to say.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is like in the skincare realm and the skin health realm, your skin is your skin.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And what works for you is gonna work for you, and what works for somebody else is gonna work for them.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we can't make these really high potent formulas for everybody and say, oh, yeah, we made a brand that's made for everybody.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's not, it's not, you know what I mean.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're talking about personalized medicine, yeah.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I don't know.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the thing.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, with Avicina, that's the point.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's another point here.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, as you said, five different serums.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you need five different serums?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you're an acne prone, you're gonna use a line according to that, you're gonna use the actives according to that.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're above 30, you don't need five different serums.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it you can put whatever is needed in one product and you can formulate accordingly.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there goes the skin minimalism.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: I love skin minimalism because it saves you time, it saves you energy, it saves you money.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, with that aspect, I want to say there are really cheap products out there that pushes the actives, and I'm not gonna name names.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if you you pay what you you get what you pay for.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: In skincare, that's it.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a lot of people who are asking me why all this skincare is too expensive or that, because of the research that goes in, because of the you know, certifications that goes in, because of the tests go in, and because they're using multiple very good actors, very good quality products that goes in, and there's actually a scientist behind this, or a group of scientists doing this.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is in general.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So um there is that.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I like multitasking, multi-functioning products that you can use during the day and during night.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need a day cream and a night cream, by the way.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Your skin, yeah, your skin decides what it needs.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the cream, right?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about, for example, our cream.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So during the day, you are going to get moisturized with the cream, it's gonna help against the moisture loss from the from your upper barrier.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it's gonna do, and it's gonna nourish and all that.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the whole anti-aging aspect of things, the neosinamite, the peptide, vitamin C, all the actives are gonna work at night.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And here's why.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because one, you're not gonna be stressed, you're sleeping, two, you're going into your REM cycle where your growth hormones start increasing, and your body goes to a repair mode.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's when all the night creams work, and that's the trick.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Going into a nice sleep, letting it go, relaxing.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: So your cream will work at night.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need an extra night cream.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that makes so much sense.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: What you just said is like it's going to work when you are more like relaxed.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like the what's going to work is going to vary depending on the day.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I really like with that because it's true, you know, like, especially if you think about things like cortisol levels and stuff.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you know, that's something that is very relevant, you know.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I agree.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and I want to talk to you about that actually.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think you brought up a great point, you know, that's a really, really interesting um segue into this question about just just the work, the role of endocrine hormones and the endocrine system, I should say, and you know, skin health.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And how did that really play a role for you, for the brand, and also if you can educate us a little bit about it as well.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So um let's look talk about gender differences.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: There is a man, there is a difference between uh men and women.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Gender differences, we're talking about sex hormone differences.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to clarify that between estrogen and testosterone.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when men and women experience inflammation and inflammation differently, and here's why.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was doing my research with estrogen and autoimmunity, we realized that estrogen can induce T helper one type cytokines more like interferyngamma and their transcription factors like TBED, stat four, stat one, all that.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: But also in that aspect, why women get more autoimmune diseases during their reproductive years?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: However, when they go into pregnancy, it gets depressed.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And here's why because when you go into pregnancy, your estrogen levels go sky high, and it shifts your th1 to th2, and you're going more autoimmunity, more anti-inflammatory and more B cell-like.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the that's the thing, that's the beauty of estrogen.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: So testosterone, based on research, is a little bit more anti-inflammatory.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: So in this aspect, the man flu is real.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's actually a paper about it.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know how men get really bedridden when they get the flu and the women still continue working like crazy.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, yeah, because they experience it harder than us, and the women, based on our hormones, we are more resilient, we're more resilient.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, but then we are more prone to by our design and by the life, what life throws at us, we're more prone to stress because we have to deal with the house, we have to deal with the kids, we have to deal with work, we have to deal with being a woman and all the other womanly things like menopause and you know, periods and whatnot.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: It changes you and it affects your immune system.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the immune system affects your skin, how it impacts you.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does that impact during menopause?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: And menopause is no picnic, by the way.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you experience all this significant decline in estrogen levels, go boom, and then you get hot flashes and all that, and that hot those hot flashes on all the hormonal changes you're going through, menopause, nothing compared to pregnancy, and you're stressed up the wazoo.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: How does it affect you mentally?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: How does it affect you, your skin levels?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: How does it affect you completely?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: And there is an increase in the pro-inflammatory markers, and there is a definite change, and as a consequence, you get more vulnerable to infectious diseases because you're losing your estrogen and your inflammation is decreasing.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: In this case, you need inflammation.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: So autoimmunity.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Autoimmunity is a different thing.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a different podcast because every autoimmune disease has a different mechanism.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if we think about the female predominant estrogen modulated ones, those are very interesting because I mean nature is amazing, by the way.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you have autoimmunity due to your hormonal and genetic predisposition.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: However, when you get pregnant, what happens is your estrogen goes up and your autoimmunity go down goes down and it protects the fetus.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that interesting?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it is it's fascinating, but everything is connected, everything is connected.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we we went we strayed a little too far, but everything in your body is connected.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Your skin, your immune system, your mentality, your stress, your brain is actually, uh, if you think about it, is your biggest immune organ because when you're stressed, you you go into flight and fight response.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: The cortisols you talked about.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Body can't distinguish if you're fighting or flying away.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna get stressed, it goes into the preservation mode.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's everything is gonna go down.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: See my point.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: So listening to your body, listening to the skin, it talks to you, it's amazing, it talks to you, but we're so busy and so stressed, we can't hear it sometimes.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean you're so right, and you know, it's so funny because people are now talking about this whole like you know, I'm sure you've heard it, the gut skin, brain axis.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, there's a brain access to every organ, like your brain is, you know, it contributes to everything, it's literally everywhere you are like every processing you know going on in your body is somehow impacted by exactly what you just said.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I hundred percent agree with you.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that access has been there for ages, we're just realizing it, you know.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's just the body, the immune system, it's just fascinating to me.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: It surprises me every day.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love it, and I'm so happy.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, here is the silver lining of COVID.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody's listening to me, I hope they won't get mad.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: But the silver lining of COVID was people started reading scientific research and they started looking, it's like we have an immune system and it protects us, and we need to protect the back.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: That was silver lining for me.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And as an immunologist, I was like, Yes, they know the immune system now.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy, you know, because before it was harder to explain it, but now people actually reading it and listening and learning and saying, hey, this affects my skin.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, this affects my joints.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's I'm stressed out, I'm getting sick faster.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: They know.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, going back to your point about you know, this idea of fight or flight, I think that we have really experienced that with COVID, especially, you know, um, this idea of we were sitting, you know, in our homes for a prolonged period of time during COVID, right?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then when we went out into the world, all of a sudden it was like a jolt of like back to reality, right?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so that itself, I know you know, a lot of consumers and a lot of people have noticed a difference, you know, whether that's your skin health, your overall health, your mental health, you've noticed a difference.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that again, you're gonna start seeing changes in your skin from that as well.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it really does add up.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, everything you said, it makes total sense to me.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I look at the the behavior of us as just consumers, you know, and the way that we're finding new products and you know, some new trend is emerging every single day in skincare.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: I always notice these things because when COVID was going on, we were focused on, you know, big skincare routines.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: We were all doing a five-step routine, you know, all this stuff.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Then towards the end of COVID, it became minimalism.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Then now it's like, well, what's going to make my skin glow?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because now we're going outside and we're interacting with people again.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so it's like we're constantly changing.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing that never changes is this need for, again, you know, stability.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you were discussing the endocrine system, I wanted to ask you about, you know, with you know, Avicino, were there any ingredients that you saw, you know, when you were you know thinking about the formula that you were like, I'm going to stay away from that because of endocrine reasons?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or was that not really?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, there was one.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I realized in the cosmetic industry, people are using genistine.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Genistine is an estrogenic chemical, it's also found in soy and some you know plants.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: When it's that way, it's fine, but it just doesn't make any sense to put any estrogenic chemicals into a skincare product.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And here's why you could be God for a bit, you could be a breast cancer patient, estrogen receptor positive.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: And what if this person doesn't know uh what's in the product and uses it?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: This person is already on estrogen blockers, tamoxifen, and everything.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then you're you're using a product that has you know estrogenic chemicals in it.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't accept the responsibility.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I it just makes me too sad.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that would be terrible.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can't believe that even existed.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: We have the option to use that though, that should be like guarded, I feel like.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, you you can you can add it if you want to, and uh that's why it's critical, critical to see.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, there are certain ingredients, for example, I don't know, squalin.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a known ingredient, it's a good ingredient.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are using an ingredient that gives you a question mark, go into PubMed, look at that, look at the supplier data, if reach out to them, that kind of thing.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that is the brands and the formulators' responsibility to ask the questions so the consumers don't have to ask it or worry about it.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: That is the brand and formulators' responsibility to me.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying that as a scientist, though.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: I am gonna say that because you I love what you're saying, it's you're saying, and I am 100% in agreement with you, but I wish more brand founders thought that way.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because at the end of the day, you know what I see a lot of a lot of people buy these products, right?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously never naming names, but you buy these products and you're sold this marketing, okay?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: You have a reaction, and then the brand goes, Well, you should have done your homework.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I always sit there in those scenarios, and I'm sitting there thinking about it.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I try to like separate the science scientist brain from the, you know what I mean, from the everyday person brain.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I I just can't do it because it's like you as a brand have the you.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: You have that responsibility on your shoulders to make sure that my, you know, reaction to your products is going to be at a baseline.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where it's like, again, we're coming back into this, it's almost like coming full circle, right?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because that baseline, I mean, you've defined it because you have studied immunology for such a long time in your career.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people don't have this understanding, you know, so they're creating products that they don't understand or shifting a baseline.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where I get to, you know, I really get frustrated because again, the blame is put onto the consumers.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then you see these Reddit forums and you have these people complaining and all this stuff, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it really comes down to, you know, for example, like, you know, I asked you this question and you answered it very clearly.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: But if I were to ask this question to many brand founders that I haven't had on, I think I wouldn't get such a straight response because have they done the homework?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's the question, you know, and and so yeah, it's very, it's frustrating, you know, as consumers, it's frustrating because who do you trust at the end of the day?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I'm I really, you know, I'm urging everyone is like, you know, when you guys are looking for new products and you're looking for new lines, right?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: To like really hone in on and start a new routine or whatever it might be, you need to look at who made it and you need to look at who the person behind it is.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you have a scientist backing a brand, you better believe that scientist has gone on to PubMed and dissected every possible you know piece of evidence they could when they're creating it.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I you won't catch, you know, in Dr.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Eber's line, you're not gonna catch this kind of problem because she's done that homework.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I'm trying to say with example is that you have to do that's the homework of the consumer, making sure that the person you're investing in matches the brand that you're investing in.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like their background matches.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think that's very important.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I want to actually use that as like uh segue into one of my big questions, and that's for my favorite product in your line, and that is the eye serum.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love it, I can't live without it.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's absolutely game, like game-changing, like no joke.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I want to discuss that with you because for me, my main eye concern, right?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like around my eye area is milia.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it always has been, you know, I have dark spot, you know like dark uh circles, what do you call it, but mostly it's been these little like bumps, you know, or like little white areas.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I noticed when I started using the cream, it was amazing because my under-eye area is so much smoother, and it's like as if it was magic, you know what I mean?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: After just one week, I noticed that there's a huge difference, and if I'm not using it, I notice it with other creams, it's just not working.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those other creams don't work.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, what did you do?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what sorcery is this?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's such an amazing product, magic.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's the main point in that one is I kind of designed it for myself and for my mom, you know, because she was a pathologist, she retired now, but you know, you know how pathologists are, they look at the microscope all day long.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're uh they're their main organ they use is their eyes, and she was always tired.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: And she had the same problems that you were described.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: And she would say, I have to use like three different creams to solve my problems, and she hated it, she hated it.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, when I started doing my PhD, I ended up with the same problem.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: My eyes are tired looking at the microscope, going to the full, you know, doing all these experiments in the middle of the night.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was designing this product, I wanted to include all those pain points in one product without being too heavy, and it's doable.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's doable.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: It has the neosinamide at the sweetest level, you know, 2%.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: It has the glucose amide to back it up, it has a beautiful to get rid of the puffiness and all that, but it's the combination of things, so it's completely doable, and it's been tested on their makeup because you're gonna use it under makeup.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's been tested on husbands, it's not on animals.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Husband runs away, and I'm like, you have to put this cream on.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Okay, uh, but you know, that's the funny part of it.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that is the thing.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: That is the thing.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Elise loves it.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have to Yeah, no, Elise absolutely, absolutely loves it, and rightfully so, because it's really game-changing.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone listening out there, if there's one product I want you guys to start with, it's this ice serum because it's really, really that good.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, I'm no joke, like I cannot rave enough about it.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's like once you start using it, you will notice that anything else that you use, it doesn't work as well.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it is that sweet spot, like you said, you know, like it's you've really hit the the nail on the head with this product.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't I've tried so many eye scarabs, probably everything out here, because it is one of my favorite skincare products, is a good eye cream, um, because of exactly what you said, but the problem with you know that your mother experienced, then you also saw it's like, you know, when you work in healthcare or science, you're always tired.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, your eyes are always tired.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's like perpetual for us, I feel like.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I I noticed, like, you know, when I started using it, obviously the milia went away.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also it was just like my eyes felt rejuvenated, they looked more useful, you know.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I know a lot of dermatologists say, like, in men, for example, you'll notice like crows' feet very early in terms of their aging as compared to women.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I was all I've always been like, you know, that's always been in the back of my mind.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, wait a minute, like I like really need to test this out.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually gave it to my fiance, and he is equally obsessed with it.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: So he steals mine, you know what I mean?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we're we're like always using they're also designed to be unisex because you know, everybody should be using it, you know, like men, women, anybody who wants to.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like separating men and women lines, you know.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Many uh that doesn't sound like male and female lines, you know, it just doesn't make any sense.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't, it doesn't make any sense.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: And also it's like, you know what?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm gonna say it.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think Neil deGrasse Tyson said it, like, you know, science doesn't care if you agree or not.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I would even say, well, your skin doesn't care.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you're like a man or a female, it's going to have its own reactions, no matter what.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to have needs, and you need to put, you know, you need to put something on it that's going to treat the concerns.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think like with the when I look at a product like this, I'm like, this is one of the hardest areas of the skin to target is your eye area.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you've just killed it here with this.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like this product is like absolute necessary in my routine at this point.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, looking at that, it just really further validates your point about all the like the you know, the immunology stuff we've talked about here, which is you know, you you have to you have to do the research.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Go on to PubMed, guys.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like do what Dr.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Ever said is like go on to PubMed, do your homework and figure out what your skin needs.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because once you do, you're gonna be like blown away by how different, you know what I mean, everything feels and how it reacts with your skin.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm a huge, I'm a huge fan.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love this product.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: One of the products I love the most is the oil, you know, because as I get older, you know, our seboom has squalin.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: And as I get older, uh, I start losing that.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I had oily skin, and I was like, oh my god, I'm drying out.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: How is this happening?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I never thought the day would come, but it happened, you know.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so um, as I said, multitasking products that have buctuel to brighten peptides to anti-age and all the other good stuff, like squal end to replace the squal end, that's you're losing.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I'm looking at these overpriced facial oils there based on grapeseed oil and whatnot, and um, I am knowing the price in bulk, and like, why don't you use squal and this makes only sense, you know?
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, use squalin, that's what you have in your seed.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: Boom, use this, and I'm like, okay, um we're gonna use this in this oil.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care how much it costs because that's that works with your skin, it's something your skin knows.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: Work with the ingredient that your skin knows, you know.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like I like grapeseed oil, but why am I gonna pay 150 or 300 dollars for a grapeseed oil?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't like we we've honest in it's the trends, you know.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's these trends.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: People are just going nuts over these trends.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I always looking at people, I'm like, why don't you take the same time you take to go onto social media and follow all these influencers and put that time into figuring out what your skin concerns are, make a list, okay?
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: It could be a short list or a long list, and then go on to PubMed, like you said, and type those in.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: Type in those concerns, you know what I mean?
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: If you've got dry skin, type in dry skin.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: What fixes dry skin?
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Look it up, you'll see you know, certain ingredients pop up, and then go match it to the you know, to actual products.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: But again, you know, at the end of the day, you want to make sure that wherever you're buying, it's backed by science, it actually has validity behind it.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, when you when you do find that, guys, you're never going to be able to replace it.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: Just like I was saying, you know, with the eye serum, like you're not going to be able to replace this like with literally any other serum.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just so well crafted.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I'm a huge fan, you know, of the whole line, Dr.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: Ever.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I love the whole line.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just so beautifully made, and I really am so excited to see any, you know, future launches you have coming up.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: I are is there anything in the works that we can get a sneak peek about?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're working on three new ones.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna tell you on the podcast, but they're gonna be amazing.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh actually, one of them finished the tester groups, and we got flying stars, all five.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's it's just amazing.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, new products going like what we're doing is we're there's so many new ingredients that I like, and that's backed in with research in PubMed on you know, preventing inflammation and whatnot.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we're revamping some of the products in the line because I want people to have better stuff.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, let's revamp this.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like, but it's gonna be expensive.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I don't care, I don't care.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: My mom is using this, I'm using this, my daughter in the future maybe is gonna use it.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I want something good, I don't want something cheap.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's that's what makes it, you know, that's what makes it amazing, though, is that you are not cutting corners.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the the real hallmark here is that you know it's mass production is one thing, but creating products that actually work is a whole different, you know, ballpark, like you said.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it money, you know, what you spend is what the price reflects.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think consumers do need to understand that is you know, I mean, not for all brands though.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that there's a lot of brands that might sometimes they'll trick you, but what you know, with with good ingredients, they're costly, you know, they cost money and they are hard to make, you know, in terms of putting them into a formulation.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another thing is like, you know, I think the every price point I've seen with your line is very fair for the ingredients you're using.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's very like, I would rather invest in my skin than to buy 15 products, you know what I mean, that are literally trying to target the same concern and they're not able to do anything at the end of the day.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're creating waste and you have all these products, and there's no solution, you know.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's definitely something to keep in mind for everyone listening.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_01: As you're you know, shopping for products, buy the quality stuff, don't waste your money on like just cheap products that if they're that cheap, they were that cheap making, you know what I mean?
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: And making so there's a reason for that price point.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: There is a reason for it.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, would you buy a really cheap car?
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: Would you buy a really cheap shoe?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: You wouldn't, because it's the value give yourself, because that's the present you buy yourself, and you are so worth it.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's working their mind off, you know.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: You are worth that cream or that, you know, serum or that concentrate.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a treat.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: Find a treat, and you know, you deserve it.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree with you.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I yeah, I it it really is about the psychology, you know, it's the psychology of treating yourself and taking care of yourself, like you said.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm fully behind that, and I really encourage everyone, you know, check out the whole line.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I will be tagging everything in the concept art for this episode, but I hope you guys love it as much as I do, as much as Elise does.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so many people.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: I we definitely um shined a huge light on the brand, you know, in our top picks, and it's very well deserved because every product is truly a home run.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just, you know, I can't rave enough about it, guys.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: So really go check it out um and let us know what you think, any feedback you have, any comments, questions.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: I will definitely pass them along to um Dr.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: Eber's team and we will get some answers for you if you have any questions about, you know, just like any inflammatory stuff or you know, any immunology stuff.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely chime in, let us know.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: But thank you so much, uh, Doc.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's been such an honor to host you.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Dr.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: Ickta, it was a pleasure being here.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise, thank you so much.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone listening, I will be back next time.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 58:04
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• 58:09
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• 58:11
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• 58:26
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• 58:43
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• 58:47
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• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
• 58:57
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• 59:03
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• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.