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Killer Thriller: Amanda Knox - The Media Turned Her Into A Monster · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone,
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Alisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller, Part two
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: of My Conversation with Amanda Knox.
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: Amanda is the.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Executive producer of the Hulu series The Twisted Tale of
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Amanda Knox, which revisits the investigation, the headlines, and the
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: story behind one of the most talked about true crime
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: cases of the modern era. There are so many things
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: that I want to ask that I feel like I
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: can't even believe that I have to ask these questions
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: because it's so outrageous. And how did it feel to
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: you to be you were essentially judged in the public
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: eye as a sexual deviant. I can't, like, I just
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: I can't understand the fox, which I came to understand
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: that that was a nickname that came from, like you
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: playing soccer or something.
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, a middle school soccer nickname. Oh yeah, yeah, it's
• 1:14
  Speaker 4: it's it's incredible. I mean, it's an interesting case of
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: spin and how you can again twist anything to appear
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: a certain way if you are motivated enough to do so,
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: and if you're willing to like cherry pick reality, and
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: that I think is the more like devious aspect of
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: this case is like you can point to a lot
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: of the things that were just made up. For instance,
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: like you know, to make sense of the fact that
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: there's all of this DNA evidence that implicates a local
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: burglar who I had no relationship with, who like I
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: didn't have his phone number, I didn't know his name.
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: I had met him, but like I had met on
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: undred other students in like while I was in Perusia,
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: So like there are lots of people that I met
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: who I didn't actually have a relationship with. One of
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: them happened to be the person who actually murdered my roommate.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Reading a day right, Who's DNA was all over the
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: crime scene?
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, who's all over the crime scene? Who is who
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: has a history of breaking and entering? Like you know,
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: all of that. To make sense of all of that
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: evidence against him while still implicating me, the prosecution just
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: had to make up out of the blue, like that
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: I had a secret relationship with him that nobody knew about.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: No witnesses ever saw us together, but like it had
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: like logically it had to be true, because how else
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: could it be possible that I was orchestrating a murder
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: orgy if I didn't have a relationship with him, you know.
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: Like so that like that is the made up stuff
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: that is just just annoying as.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the baseline of the whole Kate. It's outrageous.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: But then there's the more like sinister part, which is
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: the cherry picking of reality and this and spinning reality
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: to appear a certain way. So you know, anything from
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: my boyfriend kissing me outside of the crime scene, Like
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: if you actually look at the real life footage of
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: that moment, I'm staring like a deer in headlights into oblivion,
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: like oh my god, Oh my god, like what is happening?
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: And my boyfriend, who is also a young man doesn't
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: really know what to do, is just trying to comfort me,
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: and he like like sort of hugs me close and
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: gives me like a few pecks on the mouth and
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: then we just sort of like continue standing there. That's it,
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: the way that the world sort of turned that into
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: making out in front of the crime scene. They're so
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: turned on by the like the murder that they can't
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: stop themselves right right now, Like the spin.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: That is what I distinctly remember. I remember sitting in
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: my living room and the news being on and seeing
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: those images and them characterizing them that way, and I
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: felt like I was crazy because I went, I wait,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: I don't see that. I see this girl who's so
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: young and looks very scared and very sad.
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's how it looked. But they're gaslighting everyone. They've
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: chosen a spin, and then they'll like alter the footage
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: to try to make it look more like we're making out,
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: like putting it in slow motion and zooming in and
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: then like rewinding the tape and doing it again like
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: it's just it was. That's where it becomes like sinister,
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: where it's like you're not just making shit up your
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: cherry pick in reality, and you are completely twisting it
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: and altering it to fit a narrative that you have
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: decided is valuable for whatever reason. So on the media side,
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: it's valuable because it sells headlines. On the prosecution side,
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: it's valuable because it protects them from having to admit fault.
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: And that is that's where that anatomy of bias really
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: shines through in the series, is like, you know, pinpointing
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: those moments.
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: Yes and two things.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: I Well, first of all, rudyde is now out of jail,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: is that correct?
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: That is correct? He served thirteen years of a sixteen
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: year sentence. And I don't know if you know the
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: current news on him, but he's on tell me. Yeah,
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: so he's on trial for sexually assaulting another young woman
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: since getting out, and nobody's covering that night.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: And how is it that you, when you were first convicted,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: were supposed to serve twenty six years and he only
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: was supposed to serve sixteen, but yet he was convicted
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: before you.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't understand any of this.
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: Well, the prosecution had a strategy. They knew that they
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: could convict Rudy to day like that, there was no
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: doubt that they were going to be able to convict Rudygadey.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: The evidence was overwhelming. His DNA was in and on
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: Meredith's body like there was just like no, there is
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: no doubt about his guilt, and so they weren't really
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: concerned about finding him guilty. What they were concerned about
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: was finding me guilty. And so the way that the
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: strategy that they took was focus on Amanda. Amanda is
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: the criminal mastermind. Amanda is the reason this crime took place.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Amanda's the one who wielded the knife. Amanda, Amanda, Amanda,
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: and so what ended up happening is Rudy Gadey was
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: sort of like his culpability, Like, he was never even
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: accused of breaking into our house. He was never accused
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: of stealing Merediths longings, all of which he did. He
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: was only ever found primarily responsible for raping Meredith. And
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: he was then found guilty of participating in murder, but
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: never of having wielded a weapon himself.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: So they had to find got it.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: But why was he not convicted of the murder too
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: when his DNA was everywhere?
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: I mean again, the way that they presented the case
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: was that he was participating in the murder, but that
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: he did not wield the knife. They very specifically were like,
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: Amanda was the one who stabbed meredi death, Amanda, Amanda,
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: Amanda and so, and Amanda was the one who orchestrated all.
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: Amanda was the one with the murderous intent. Rudy Guide
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: only wanted to rape her, He didn't want to murder her.
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: So like they lessened his culpability in order to find
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: me culpable of his.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Crimes so that they would have to admit they were wrong. Yes,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's nothing funny about this at all. And
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: but I am like, that's just laughful. This is it's
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: it's just unbelievable.
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's incredibly frustrating, especially considering the fact that,
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: like you know, if you think of the ultimately who
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: bears the infamy of this like tragic event, Like again,
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: people are showing up outside of my wedding to cut
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: like to cover that in the tabloids, But nobody's covering
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: Rudy Gadet's like next crime that he committed after being
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: released from prison. Like that is just like how are
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: we actually determining what is in the public interest? Right?
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: That is That's what drives me nuts. Is it's like
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: my my wedding, which I was trying to keep like
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: hidden in secret, is not in the public interest. The
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: fact that this guy went on to commit further crimes
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: is I know what.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: That should be? Well, this is also I had not seen.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Your Chris Cuomo interview in its entirety until when I
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: knew I was going to.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: Speak with you.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: When I say I had like steam coming out of
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: my ears. It is so despicable to me what this
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: man did to you, what he put you through. It's
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: like he put you back on trial and just kept
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: recounting the utterly false accusations that were purely sexual in nature.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: It's like, I my heart, and you handled it with
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: such grace, but you were like a kid like I can't,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I want to And your mom's response to that, can
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: you just talk about that experience? And if your mom's
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: response that we showed in the series was how she responded,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: and I.
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: Just yeah, yeah, so that was and I'm so glad
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: we were able to present this side of it. And
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: again this is like really me and Monica especially pushing
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: for this because, like you typically what you see in
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: the true crime space is, you know, you hear about
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: the crime, you follow the courtroom drama, and then as
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: soon as the courtroom drama's over, the story's over, and
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: it's like no, no, no, the story is not over
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: at all. And so showing the media trauma side of
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: things was a really important part of it. And I
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: think again just that like same experience of gas lighting,
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: like you know, the I think the most important part
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: of that, like we when we recreated this in the show.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: We just took word for word what was actually in
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: in the interview, and we then but we show the
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: also the before and the after. So the before when
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: Chris Cuomo is coming to me while I'm in like
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: the dressing room and like, hey, you know it's this
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: is going to be good for you, trust me, and
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: I'm like okay, and then my mom, my mom, and
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: my reaction honestly, like we gave this reaction more to
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: my mom because like my mom was still trying to
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: protect me, but like my mom being like they're all
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: telling us that they're doing things that are good for us,
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: and they're just they're just like sexually harassing my daughter
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: live on camera all over again, Like how why are
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: they able to lie to us like this and tell
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: us that this is good for us? Like it was
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: just yeah, the despair and the rage and the feeling
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: like the story mattered more than the person, and like
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: the feeling of helplessness in that regard like it was
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: it was it was supposed to be also like a repeat,
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: like it was supposed to have like little moments that
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: sort of reminded you of my interrogation as well, where
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: you're like, oh, you know, no, this is good for you. No, No,
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: it's you don't remember, Like there's that like sort of
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: sort of coaxing you into the grooming.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Is someone who yes, Yes, that's exactly what it feels like.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: That's what it comes across as in both the real
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: interviews and in the series. The series is a beautiful
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: job of showing that, which is why it's so arresting
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: to watch, Like it's it's a really hard.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: To fathom and to swallow.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about you going back to
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: meet your prosecutor at Menini, which in the series I
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: found it incredibly satisfying when your character sits across from
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: him and essentially tells him the horrible things that he's
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: done in the implications and how it has impacted your life?
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Is that one where is that accurate to how it
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: actually happened? And can you talk about why it was
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: so important for you to go back and meet with
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: this man?
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah? And why I was so important to be part
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: of the series too, I think is because I think
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: that even whether or not this, this whole show should
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: should exist really was a question that I've been facing
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: for a long time because it's just a horrible thing
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: that happened to my roommate and a horrible thing that
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: happened to me. Great like it's not. It has never
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: really felt like my story, when viewed in that terms,
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: is just the story of the worst experiences of some
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: people's lives. And I don't think that, you know, despite
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: what the true crime world will tell you, Like I
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: didn't think that just because it's the worst experience of
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: someone's life, life that was really public at a certain
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: period of time, means that it's a good thing for
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: you to make a show about it, Like I felt
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: like it wasn't until I went back to confront my
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: prosecutor and I learned something from that experience that and
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: I really it felt like it was the first time
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: that I was actually doing something in response to what
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: had happened to me, as opposed to just like having
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: things happen to me. So it felt like finally my
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: story again, and it felt like I had learned something
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: from that that was really valuable, that it is possible
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: to confront someone who has harmed you and to hold
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: them accountable and at the same time recognize their humanity
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: and accept them for who they are. And so that
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: that was a huge part of why this story even
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: got made in the first place, and also was a
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: huge like again, I can't thank kJ Steinberg enough because
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: she co wrote that final episode with me. She didn't
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: have to do that, like she knew that that meant
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: a lot to me to be able to actually put
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: to paper the words that we said to each other,
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: and how it was this sort of like dance like
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: that it was not like straightforward and it wasn't like
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: cathartic in the sense that like I said, this is
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: what you did, and he goes, you're right, Oh my god,
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: I'm so sorry. Like instead it was way more of
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: like this dance and this tension, but still this like
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: openness and this like surprising warmth that is just like
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: sort of disorienting after this whole experience, but like you
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: do feel that it is earned in a way. And
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: so I really wanted to portray especially that scene, because
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: you know, it lives on in my memory. You know,
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: we did, like I actually have real footage from this journey.
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: My husband actually put out I don't know if you saw,
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: but earlier, yes, my husband put out a documentary yes,
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: where we show the act it's called Mouth of the Wool.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Mouth of the Wolf.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: We show the actual footage of going back to Italy
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: to do this thing that we present in the Twisted Tail.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: And the one thing that we didn't get footage of
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: was that meeting because we knew that if we got
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: footage of that meeting it would be the sort of
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: weird and posed and performative. So we're just like, nope,
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: cameras out, We're not doing that. But I then got
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: to finally like show what it was like in the
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: Twisted Tail, and so that was deeply satisfying and I
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: think was really what like the whole point of the
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: show was was like, after a cataclysmic event in your life,
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: what do you do about it? And like, if you
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: do not get closure, how do you go about getting
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: that closure for yourself?
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, this is something It is one
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: of the reasons why I'm so in awe of you
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: and people that you know, when we go through trauma
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: in our lives, to varying degrees individually, we are always
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: faced with the question of are you going to move
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: through it? Are you going to bring this to your
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: life in a way that enhances it and that helps
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: that helps us to understand our human existence or are
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: we going to just completely crumble.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: Or hurt other people?
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: And I just think like it's an incredible feat to
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: that you've accomplished with this, and that I really admire
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: that that's you have allowed this to inform your life,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: because it has it's your life, but you are are
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: putting it giving it great purpose and great meaning. And
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: I've read that you've said that this, you know, this,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: this horrific trauma that you've been through, it's actually helped
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: you to I'm paraphrasing so you can say it the
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: way you really said it, but it's helped you to
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: actually connect with people more and to have a better
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: ability to communicate.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah?
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And this is something I talk a lot about
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: in my most my memoir Free, My Search for Meaning,
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: where I really dissect first of all, what it means
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: to be free, Like I've had my freedom stolen from me,
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: and part of that freedom was the ability to relate
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: to other people, to feel like I belonged to other people,
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: Like I was literally taken away and put into a
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: little box as a monster. And when I got released
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: back into the free world. It's not like I just
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: got to go back to how everything was before, you know,
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: I was still stigmatized. I was still grapple with how
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: this hex this experience had distanced me from other people.
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: And I was put on the spot to explain myself
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: and to explain everything that happened that was so completely
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: out of my control, and a lot of which was
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: I didn't like I didn't really have accesss to to
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: the why of it, all right. I didn't have access
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: to what my prosecutor or what my prosecutor was thinking,
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: and yet I was supposed to explain all of his actions,
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: you know. And so being put on the spot like that,
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: and having every single little word and turn of phrase
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: and twitch of the eye like dissected under the microscope,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: with everyone sort of looking for fault and looking for
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: reasons to doubt me. That put me in a position
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: of having to learn how to articulate my thoughts and
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: feelings to myself and also to other people. And in
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: the process of doing that, I've learned to express myself
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: and what I've experienced. But of course what I've experienced
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: is a universal thing, Like I've experienced something that's very
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: extreme and specific, but the overall experience is a universal
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: one of thinking your life is going to be going
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: one way and then life happens to you and it
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: goes another way, and feeling misunderstood and misrepresented and like
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: people people are being unfair to you, Like these are
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: all things that we experience. And what I discovered is
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: that when I started articulating that experience in essays and interviews,
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: people would respond and say, oh my god, this is
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: how I've been feeling, and I just never had words
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: for it. And that was really validating for me because
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: it really closed that distance, and it made me feel
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: like everything that I had gone through wasn't just a loss.
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: It had value, you know. It wasn't just things I
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: had lost and was grieving. I had also gained something
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: from that experience that that was valuable that I could
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: pay forward.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: I think there is such a misconception that people assume
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: when anyone is in the public eye in some way,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: as you were so and continued to be so largely,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: that they assume you have everything you need, you have
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of resources, you have support, you have like
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: all the things, Like people don't realize that it's very
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: isolating and in your experience of course quite specifically.
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and it's not like I have, you know,
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: a PR manager, right, Like I came home and it
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: was just little me, like I didn't like so and
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: even those who do have You're right, is it's incredibly isolating.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: But like, don't assume that every time you see me
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: on TV. It's because there's a whole team of people
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: who are grading and it's a highly paid you know,
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: like that's not what's going on here, right, right, it's
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: a small operations.
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: When you you don't have much more time. And I
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: can't believe it. But did you when you went back
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: to Italy?
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Did you go back to the house, to the scene
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: of the crime?
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah? You did. So that's again we portrayed that at
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: the end of the series to say goodbye, and I
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: did do that in real life. And because again like
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: I had never had that opportunity, and I didn't know,
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: if you know, before I went back to Italy, if
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: I was ever going to be able to go back
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: at all, and and so I just made it happen
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: for myself. And it was not something that I did,
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: you know, in a big public way, like I was
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: on lockdown I was, like, you know, I was wearing
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: sunglasses and a big hat, like mak sure that nobody
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: saw me, but like I just I wanted to honor
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: this place that had had such a huge impact on
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: my life and Meredith's life. And in a weird way,
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: it was it was a relief because I realized when
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: I did that that it was just a place, like
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: it had turned into this sort of scene of nightmares
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: in my mind. But like going back to the house
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: and just seeing it as a house where like other
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: people are living in it now, like it just it
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: It gave me that like really important perspective that like
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: any place is just a place. Any place can be
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: the home of people's best experiences and worst experiences and
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: everything in between. And so there's nothing special about the
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: place itself. It's just the people. Right.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: You took the power. It's power away.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in a sense, let's talk about what your life
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: is like now, and your family.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: And your sister.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I know, you know that's another person who is a
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: victim of this and her own experience, which you cover
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: in the series. Also, like how is everyone now?
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: So oh man, I'm so sad we don't have time
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: to talk more about Deanna, my sister, and how we
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: portrayed her in the series, because it was it was
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: so important she she represents a lot of the justified,
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: like anger and and unresolved trauma, like all of that,
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: like she And it's absolutely true that in real life,
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: when I told my family that I was going back
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: to Italy, she pulled me aside and was like, what
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: the fuck is wrong with you? Like wow, right, how
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: could you do this to us? Like, you know, stop thinking,
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: this is not about you, like like that, and it's
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: so absolutely valid, And that's why it was so important
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: to me to like have that in the show, because
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: it's right, like it wasn't just about me, it was
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: about her too, And and was I potentially making decisions
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: that without really considering how it would fully impact her?
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: Like that was a real, really important moment. And I mean,
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna lie, like it's it took years for
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: my family to get to a place of like being okay,
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: and even then, like they're lasting. You know, everyone has
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: been marked for the rest of their life by this,
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: this horrible thing that happened. I'm happy to say that,
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: Like my relationship with my sister is better than ever
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: we both you know, we both we we've like we've
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: directly confronted a lot of the pain, and so as
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: a result of that, like we've been able to like
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: come through it and see it in each other and
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: like honor it in each other. And now we get
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: to like be on the other side of it with
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: each other, which is so great because we also are
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: raising children together, like in the sense that like she
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: has two kids who are almost the exact same age
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: as my two kids are. So there's a lot of
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: like cousin time where we're getting to experience this next
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: stage of our life really together, which is so great.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: And then in the meantime, you know, I have my
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: my little production company here with my husband Christopher Robinson,
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: who also eped on The Twisted Tail, who's also in
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: the show, and like was one of the like the
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: costume department loved.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: So many of the costumes were exactly like I mean,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I guess you wore them so you would know.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I also love that he says.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: In the car when you are driving to see the
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: prosecutor and your mom character of your mom says, don't
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: tell me to calm down or relax, And he's like, Okay,
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: I Harbor, relax it really I was like, I bet
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: that is totally what he is like as a person, Like,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: I bet that is his personality in a I loved
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: it so much.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like great, like the real life thing
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: and liked I love that moment because it's such like
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: a little moment of comic relief. But like it's exactly
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: like I'm not telling you, but I wish you.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: I Harbor, I wish oh gosha. We didn't even get
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: to talk a rafa about Raphaelien.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: I just I do you two speak now? I would
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: think that you let me ask this us this very
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: quickly when you met him.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: You know, when we meet.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: People, we have that feeling sometimes like oh I'm supposed
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: to know this person, or oh I love them, or
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I don't let you know. You have that kind of
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: sixth sense of something. Did you feel that way when
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: you met him? Did you think, oh.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: That's so interesting. I mean I definitely felt an immediate
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: connection with him, and you know, he he was nerdy
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: like I was nerdy, and he was he was so
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: sweet and shy compared to the others sort of. I mean,
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: if you know Italian guys they're not shy is one thing,
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: and so like to meet like a sweet shy Italian
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: guy just was was striking in and of itself. And
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: I remember just connecting with him as like as like
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: a young, sweet, nerdy person. And I didn't know that
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: we would be connected in this significant of a way,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: of course, but we are connected in a very significant way,
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: and we have a very special kind of relationship that
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: is I often say, very easily romanticized in like you
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: know Hollywood representations of like, oh, two people who survived
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: a traumatic experience together, of course they fall in love
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: in the papili ever after, And that's not That's not
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: what happened in our case. It was more like it
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: was more like we were soldiers in a in a
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: battle together, right like we had we had survived something together.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: And and so today like when I'm on a zoom
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: call with him, or even like in that final like
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: in the final episode, there's the scene where we go
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: back to Goobio together, like that absolutely happened in real life.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Oh that is like it's a beautiful scene. It's really
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: really well done.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: The thing with raphae Ala is like it absolutely feels
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: like there are alternate realities where we had a very
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: different life together. And and I think that that that
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: is that is I feel that way, and he feels
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: that way. And so when we we see, like when
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: we see each other, when we talk with each other,
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: but especially when we see each other, like either over
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: a zoom call or when we see each other in person,
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: there is this like there's a little bit of tension
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: in there of like in an alternate universe we would
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: have had a very a very different life together. And
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: and so there's there's like both a like joy to
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: see each other, but also kind of a grief there too, sure,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: and it's it's deep, it's a very different I don't
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: have that kind of relationship with anybody else in my life.
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: It's really it's really singular. And and Giuseppe de Domenico,
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: who played raphael A, was so good, so good, so
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: so captured Raphaele's essence, like his romanticism, his idealism, his nerdiness,
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: his but and and also like this there's like a
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: there's a toughness to him too, as he like got
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: through and there's like a grief and there's a rage
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: even in him from all of the experience, like he
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: just yeah, he was incredible. He did such a good job.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: Well, I honestly like I.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Could talk to you for hours, and I have so
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: many pages that we never got to and it makes
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: me sad, but I truly this has been a great
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: honor for me. And I do not say lightly how
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: much I truly admire you. And I think that what
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: you are doing with your spirit and your time and
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: your physical life that on this planet is really extraordinary.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: That's my last question I'll ask you.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: I think that what you are doing and what you
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: have been through is extraordinary, and I think that you
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: are an extraordinary person.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Do you think that you are an extraordinary person?
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: Oh? I remember something my mom told me when I
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: was really young. It was when we were out walking
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: the dogs one day. I have no idea what prompted this,
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: but I will never forget how she just again I
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: could tell you where we were on the street, like
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: a street away from our house, walking our dogs. She
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: just turned to me and was like, Amanda, you're going
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: to live an extraordinary life. And she was like, I
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: don't know, I don't know what it is, but you're
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: going to live an extraordinary life. And I was just
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: like okay, you like, I don't okay, I don't like,
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know where that premonition came from,
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: but it has proven to be the case. So I'm
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: living a kind of extraordinary life. But also I'm I'm
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: actually at a really interesting point in my extraordinary life
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: where you know, I'm it's it's kind of normalizing in
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: the sense that like, you know, I I'm a mom,
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: and I pack lunches lunches, you know, and I read
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: a Little Blue Truck over and over again, you know, I,
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: you know, I and I do like really incredible work
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: that I feel really lucky to do. Like one of
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: the things that I have going on right now is
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: I have a podcast.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's what I want to talk about before me.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it please to us. Well just to say that, like,
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm still applying the lessons of what I've
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: been through to the world around me. And so when
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: I see what feels like another like my little red
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: flag goes up when I hear about other cases of
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: especially women are who are accused of heinous crimes and
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: are vilified in the media. And one of those cases
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: right now that's on my radar is the Lucy Letbee case,
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: which is a very controversial case in the United Kingdom
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: but which has raised a lot of doubts about her conviction.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: And I've developed a whole podcast series that really digging
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: deep and investigating this case. So it's it's called Doubt
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: the Case of Lucy let Be and anybody can listen
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: to it. So like I get to do. So I'm
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: just plugging away, like making a podcasts and like making
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: you know, TV shows, And but like in a way
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: that that that in itself is both kind of extraordinary
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: but also kind of ordinary, and that is, you know,
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: it's work. You know. I'm not like in an epic
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: quest anymore, you know. And so in a weird way,
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: I'm like, now that I'm finally in my late thirties,
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: I'm like, Okay, I think my next adventure is not
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: going to be about survival. It's just going to be
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: about joy. And let's see how what that looks like.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: I think you deserve that, and I wish you that.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: So The Twisted Tail of Amanda Knox is an eight
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: part series. It's streaming on Hulu. Everyone watch it, watch it,
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: watch it. And Amanda hosts the podcast Hard Knocks with
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Amanda Knox and the latest podcast that we just discussed
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: is Doubt The Case of Lucy let Be Amanda, thank
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: you so so much for your time and I really
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: loved talking with you.
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much for having me