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How Europe can Win in Tech · EU-Startups Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You are now listening to the EU Startups podcast.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome, Today, I chatted with Tom Wehmeyer.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Hope that pronounced our last name correctly.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: he's a partner and head of intelligence at the UK VC Atomico which i'm sure many of you know it is extremely active in its investment in innovative companies across the continent globally.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Of particular relevance there are state-of-european tech report.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Everybody in the ecosystem has a snapshot as to what's going on economically, politically.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: How money is flowing and out?
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: What are
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: priorities?".
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: It's very not only an interesting report but fundamental.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: I think He was kind enough to give us a little bit of sneak peek into what's coming out this year, which releases in November.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: And we chatted over Atomico's history and his own personal experiences within AtomICO—his theories on investment where money is flowing in the future —and even his own background that interestingly wasn't beginning in VC or investment but in telecoms how they helped shape interest perspective into how he approaches his work at Atomico.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: So I hope you're looking forward to that conversation!
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: in the work that we do here at EU Startup.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: So this is a conversation, it's going to be very applicable I think not just only for the audience of founders and entrepreneurs or even investors but also on a journalistic level.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: It has many applications so i am looking forward to it.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: But before you get into it Yes yes!
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I'm sure about it.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Before getting into then give me chance to present yourself.
• 2:36
  Speaker 0: Sure, so I'm Tom Daymine.
• 2:38
  Speaker 0: I am a partner with Atomico.
• 2:40
  Speaker 0: Atomaco is an European multi-stage bench capital investor and we're based here in the UK but really investing all throughout the region.
• 2:50
  Speaker 0: Investing right from pre-seed to big pre-IPO rounds.
• 2:55
  Speaker 0: We've been going for twenty odd years now.
• 3:00
  Speaker 0: And then my role as a partner on our investment committee And then actually one of the roles that I've undertaken has been what i would call market education.
• 3:13
  Speaker 0: So, it's something that I started under Atomico many years ago now was a state-of-European tech and...I'm sure we can get into that but really trying to play small role in how we develop narratives around technology entrepreneurship from here in Europe a shared fact basis, you know to allow us have better conversations and ultimately achieve better outcomes as an ecosystem.
• 3:44
  Speaker 0: And influence change along the way.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Okay yeah I do want again to state of European tech report because obviously there's lot talk on it.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: but i think its also important to kind touch how got into all this because similarly VC and investing or, you know understanding.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: I kind of fell into what i do now And i know that You Kind Of followed a similar path in That you began with telecoms if uh If i read correctly?
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: And then just come walk here A little bit about Where you Began and how that led you Into where you are With atomic.
• 4:20
  Speaker 0: yeah sure so Yeah i think as you say you Know Actually i kind of joke um often that Um When I was having discussions with Atomico about joining, i'd have struggled to really name five VCs.
• 4:32
  Speaker 0: That's how far outside the VC loop I was in my prior career and telecoms.
• 4:41
  Speaker 0: that said ultimately... Having joined thirteen years ago now it has actually helped me develop an edge.
• 4:52
  Speaker 0: The one thing is basically you're always trying to decide with imperfect information.
• 4:59
  Speaker 0: you're trying to ultimately make decisions where your yeah try and get to a sort of shared truth.
• 5:06
  Speaker 0: You know what's it doing on.
• 5:07
  Speaker 0: the thing that really matters there i think is as diversity perspectives.
• 5:12
  Speaker 0: so being able come in from outside weather different lens was worth a lot i think.
• 5:17
  Speaker 0: specifically the analytical lens I had coming from the telecom industry, has been particularly useful for me.
• 5:28
  Speaker 0: You know, one thing is hype cycles.
• 5:31
  Speaker 0: that certainly spent so many years thinking through and seeing and living hype cycles.
• 5:38
  Speaker 0: I remember when i started.
• 5:40
  Speaker 0: it was pretty much at the time of you start with a three G boom.
• 5:45
  Speaker 0: there were exorbitant levels of spend going into acquiring the spectrum licenses to allow three G networks to develop, but ultimately it would take something close to a decade for that vision.
• 6:01
  Speaker 0: That people had around three g four internet on your phones two actually become something there was delivering values.
• 6:08
  Speaker 0: so you really live the up and downs of kind of be inflated expectations.
• 6:13
  Speaker 0: um The uh You know the trough of disillusionment?
• 6:16
  Speaker 0: And then ultimately you know the realization Of value.
• 6:22
  Speaker 0: That's the application of that hype cycle mentality and being able to ultimately think with a very long-term patient mindset, having that kind of deeply in your bones is so critical.
• 6:37
  Speaker 0: The other interesting thing for me which was almost one of those full circle things where I spent seven years working on telecom incumbents helping them the disruption that they faced all around them.
• 6:53
  Speaker 0: So, you know of course like internet telephony was just this giant threat to their business models and obviously the leading disruptor there with Skype.
• 7:01
  Speaker 0: so then when I joined Atomico and working alongside Nicholas i really wasn't a full cycle moment.
• 7:08
  Speaker 0: And what always stuck with me from those experiences too is how as an incumbent.
• 7:16
  Speaker 0: You can squarely see the disruption coming at.
• 7:20
  Speaker 0: You know what's gonna take place and yet still it so hard to move when you think about structural impediments or misaligned incentives are just like that.
• 7:30
  Speaker 0: the organizational gaps in terms of talent capabilities say.
• 7:35
  Speaker 0: I think its always been an interesting lens for me, most time we're looking at start-ups considering investments you have these David and Goliath type fights And as we know, there are always so many good reasons to back with David in those scenarios.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Right and I imagine also that it must have been an appreciation for kind of innovation Right?
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Because you're seeing so many new things show up, whether it's the impact of the internet or how Skype was changing.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: You are really involved in a moment where things were changing after.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: imagine that kind of ability to adapt and that moment of change is just constant.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: with working with VCs It always looking for something which will change what currently status quo.
• 8:24
  Speaker 0: Yeah I think when we say come to realize you know, to not only get your head around the potential of change but also the long-term scale and kind of impact that can be achieved.
• 8:44
  Speaker 0: I think one story from my telecom days that always sticks with me is back in the early days of mobile telephony right in the like seventies, eighties when it just started to emerge as this fundamentally innovative new thing.
• 9:04
  Speaker 0: The studies at that time would say we believe their total addressable market for mobile telephones is not going to exceed a million devices and of course you fast forward several decades later.
• 9:19
  Speaker 0: obviously I don't know what the latest count.
• 9:21
  Speaker 0: now You know, certainly even when I left the telecoms industry back in twenty thirteen.
• 9:29
  Speaker 0: We're already and there's six or seven billion range inside you.
• 9:34
  Speaker 0: now it is kind of a remarkable thing that always sticks with you which is like its so easy to underestimate.
• 9:41
  Speaker 0: you know the outside but can come when you truly have your breakthrough.
• 9:46
  Speaker 0: innovation just fundamentally changes behaviors or changes the way that we do things on a fundamental basis and in transformative ways.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, well then moving into what you've already talked about I mentioned which is The State of the European Tech Report to get as early as we can because there's A lot of meat there i think To Get Into.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: I was Curious And Kind Of Hearing About Where?
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: where the idea came from.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: You know I liked.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: I read somewhere That it Was Originally PowerPoint Slide which I thought was a fun color for what it is now.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: It's influenced on the journalism level, i think more than maybe some people in the ecosystem realize because obviously its impacting terms of understanding data and funding and trends or something.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: but even when we report now you know... We prioritize context funding context and reporting rates, if we see a company has raised this amount.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: It's always in our interest to kind of tie it back To historical trend something that's been happening this year And I traced that back too A lot of what state European tech report kind of introduced In terms of putting That kind of analysis out there?
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: The priority Of an audience that cares
• 11:02
  Speaker 0: for me.
• 11:04
  Speaker 0: Yeah so thank you for saying that If i sort of roll the clock Back when We started I think fundamentally, as we've just been talking about Europe and European technology.
• 11:17
  Speaker 0: European entrepreneurship was an example of an overlooked market that people at the time even to some extent still now were really underestimating what You know, or just having a set of false assumptions around what role ultimately Europe could play when it comes to tech and how successful we can be.
• 11:51
  Speaker 0: In terms of building a thriving ecosystem around entrepreneurship.
• 11:55
  Speaker 0: so our perception therefore was this is fundamentally knowledge gap on what's fundamentally missing within the evidence base?
• 12:05
  Speaker 0: There were no In our view at the time like shared data set that you could point to.
• 12:10
  Speaker 0: that said hey look what's happening in a very evidence objective.
• 12:15
  Speaker 0: Data driven way.
• 12:16
  Speaker 0: so i was kind of the opportunity and i think we also kinda felt there is no holistic way, talk systemically about what does it ultimately take.
• 12:28
  Speaker 0: build a thriving entrepreneur ecosystem say maybe would see some you know, some kind of reports and data sets at the time on investment.
• 12:38
  Speaker 0: But certainly there was nothing looking at talent.
• 12:40
  Speaker 0: There was nothing in a systemic way or systematic way about liquidity landscape.
• 12:46
  Speaker 0: so what we wanted to do is also try and tie all these things together now.
• 12:51
  Speaker 0: as I say it started with that because like in reality We had no plan for this to become huge platform that it has gone on to become in this way, but we just kind of felt like hey here's the gap.
• 13:07
  Speaker 0: Let us go and scratch our itch that we see and put something out
• 13:10
  Speaker 0: there.".
• 13:10
  Speaker 0: It just happened to be a right thing at the right time ever since then because we felt the pull from the market that people valued you know?
• 13:22
  Speaker 0: This viewer and lens that were able provide which should keep feeding that beast if
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well then so this year's is coming up right it's in I want to say November?
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Is that right?
• 13:38
  Speaker 0: yeah under the year
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: okay end of the Year i mean It's there.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: is there anything you can give us In terms Of like how its developing?
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: maybe something That You've seen This year?
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: thats kind of uh yeah been different from previous reports.
• 13:52
  Speaker 0: yeah.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: and
• 13:53
  Speaker 0: So Maybe Actually i'll sort of re anchor it back To what we did last year because you know one of The things that we did last year was, um... We kind of put out this framework for how to best move the needle.
• 14:07
  Speaker 0: For the next phase-the next act for European technology.
• 14:12
  Speaker 0: so basically when were trying think about okay like we've got a certain level and it's great!
• 14:17
  Speaker 0: How do you get somewhere even bigger?
• 14:20
  Speaker 0: And what are ultimately going be things that can fundamentally make progress more viable.
• 14:29
  Speaker 0: And so we talked about four pillars, it was like fund the future which is basically about you know right capital market dynamics from angel investment to public markets fixing a friction with all of our continuing to lower barriers to start scale and ultimately act as one region.
• 14:48
  Speaker 0: empowering talent.
• 14:49
  Speaker 0: if you think about talent, it's the most critical raw ingredient that we have.
• 14:53
  Speaker 0: So how do you kind of mobilize a track retain your talent in the best way?
• 14:57
  Speaker 0: And then and then the last one was embrace risk which is... How did we continue to evolve this cross-cutting point around mindset and basically ambition and risk
• 15:08
  Speaker 0: tolerance?".
• 15:10
  Speaker 0: We put that framework out there with series of calls for actions around it.
• 15:14
  Speaker 0: I think when Actually move in the last twelve months, particularly considering for this year.
• 15:25
  Speaker 0: There were so many important initiatives on the table both at a national and European level say obviously you think about Ewing because as one example Obviously number of initiatives around unlocking institutional capital And said we'll definitely be taking it big.
• 15:44
  Speaker 0: dive into that I think.
• 15:45
  Speaker 0: The other thing yeah You won't be surprised to hear i think it's gonna come up a lot is this idea of well we talk alot about technological sovereignty and building european resilience.
• 16:03
  Speaker 0: What do you actually mean by that?
• 16:06
  Speaker 0: We will be taking a look right through the stack from energy to compute defense, Trying to bring some data to the table, you know help us see what's real versus.
• 16:22
  Speaker 0: there is a lot of rhetoric out then.
• 16:24
  Speaker 0: And yeah!
• 16:24
  Speaker 0: Of course as you know it's an European level report but we take look at the underlying geographic dynamics and this has been year where have seen huge amount momentum in UK I'm sure will touch upon that in the Nordics and kind of bring to life a little bit around.
• 16:45
  Speaker 0: what is it that we're seeing
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: there.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: It's not surprising to me you have your finger on the pulse when it comes these topics, but I think twenty-eighth regime, E.U.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Inc.,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: because yes there's been so much talk about it and everybody is very excited for... And just anybody that I have on this podcast mentions in one way or another this idea of how they support it and what they think about relationship with the U S. but you're right That feels like maybe There's a bit of stagnation In terms.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: we've been hearing So Much About It.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah Okay What Now?
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Where Does This Go?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: I will definitely be interested in kind of seeing what
• 17:23
  Speaker 0: that has to say.
• 17:24
  Speaker 0: Yeah, and i think like you know what you're describing is exactly a kind of... You know?
• 17:28
  Speaker 0: What I often would describe as almost this commitment gap whereby it can be frustrating because on the one hand there's an almost consensus view That some these things really matter.
• 17:42
  Speaker 0: We have got them right And ultimately This coming decade for Europe Is crucial.
• 17:51
  Speaker 0: And yet we get stuck.
• 17:53
  Speaker 0: You know, and a big piece of what's missing is well it's gonna take some really bold decisive leadership ultimately to kind of break through the deadlock in whether that's... Bold leadership at the member state level.
• 18:12
  Speaker 0: so you have to push though a kind of ambitious version of EUing.
• 18:20
  Speaker 0: Whether it's something like a good example of this is the TV initiative, right?
• 18:24
  Speaker 0: Where I think from a capital stack perspective.
• 18:29
  Speaker 0: It has been really needle-moving in getting more euros flowing into venture and growth innovation ultimately.
• 18:38
  Speaker 0: but you wouldn't have that without the bold decisive leadership of Macron and obviously Professor TV behind and being able to leverage that positioning, then also bring along other institutional leaders with it.
• 19:00
  Speaker 0: It's a very interesting model.
• 19:01
  Speaker 0: I think is going have to be replicated through some of the deadlocks we see throughout the variety of different pillars that matter.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, I that's why the report matters so much to me is the context because you know this information Is very much out there and a lot of people have access To it.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: but if they see all in one place And to kind of give them A context around decisions on things are happening some point.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Of course You know us in the media That supposedly what we're here for as well right?
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: But It's still...you Have access to another data set that can give you this kind of learning and these kinds conclusions, maybe we just naturally get into.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: With that in mind because being on the media or being in journalism... We care so much about the audience!
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: And we consider our audiences to be about everything what they do with them.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: In this podcast I think when we publish work constantly thinking how does an audience react?
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Is it something their interest is?
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Are they prioritizing this?
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Do you consider as well in the drafting report, is it something that you're considering saying oh we know journalists are going to be referencing this.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: We need to kind of adapt these numbers and make sure they're easy to report on.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: or we know investors are gonna take this as signs to invest in these companies and we should be aware of this?
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Is that something consider?
• 20:23
  Speaker 0: yeah I mean i think like It's very much a front center for us.
• 20:30
  Speaker 0: You know the nice thing though because Because were trying macro level view.
• 20:38
  Speaker 0: And then basically, you know work with this like unifying principle that there's one set of facts to basically then go and argue for on-to-go build narratives off the backoff too use to input into whatever argument it is your trying to fight.
• 21:02
  Speaker 0: I think actually we found There is like a common interest that allows us to try and tell one story.
• 21:12
  Speaker 0: Of course, in reality we also know though the VCs are going kind of more about investment amounts than what's happening from liquidity perspective.
• 21:21
  Speaker 0: similarly you are absolutely focused on those things and you know policy makers might be more interested in seeing some of the stuff that comes out at the survey.
• 21:31
  Speaker 0: And perspectives on, what's not working?
• 21:35
  Speaker 0: And hearing I guess like that scaled voice of their ecosystem an understanding about what perspective we bring to table in terms views on regulatory landscape.
• 21:50
  Speaker 0: And then I think the other sort of dimension in how we've tried to think about this is well Okay, like let's make sure that everything can be exported and downloaded.
• 21:59
  Speaker 0: Then all their data is you know It's like We can put the data out there?
• 22:03
  Speaker 0: We have a certain take an interpretation Of what it means and why matters we try and do.
• 22:09
  Speaker 0: that isn't in as in As objective and balanced way as we possibly can but of course You know The same dataset.
• 22:17
  Speaker 0: two are different.
• 22:18
  Speaker 0: Um, you know audience is that it's going to be interpreted in different ways.
• 22:21
  Speaker 0: So then therefore it's like okay well I'll tell you what.
• 22:25
  Speaker 0: here's the data.
• 22:25
  Speaker 0: You can export all for yourself and go do what you want with there?
• 22:29
  Speaker 0: And so yeah i actually think one of The most gratifying things at their of the whole report has been To precisely see that to see people Go and take the data on them build on top Of a thing That was always part of.
• 22:42
  Speaker 0: the intention Is hey this should Be your contribution to basically just putting that evidence base out there and then allow others go in, write stories tell stories develop narratives with them.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, well to look behind the scenes here a little bit I have been curious as to what the process of development is like.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Is this something that takes the whole year?
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: The moments published are just onto next edition.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: How many people work on it?
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: do you different departments jumping in depending on section?
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: how do you develop them?
• 23:26
  Speaker 0: Yeah so actually now they almost become around things.
• 23:36
  Speaker 0: We not only want to be putting information out there at the end of year, but also engaging in a constructive way around the macro issues of European technology day-in and day-out.
• 23:48
  Speaker 0: You will see that we're either constantly having conversations like this or hosting roundtables around their data... ...or putting our newsletter out where active on socials and engaging In the debates, I think that common thread with all of it is... You know what we want to be able do?
• 24:08
  Speaker 0: Is take day-to-day events and connect the dots in a bigger picture way.
• 24:13
  Speaker 0: And then try give some articulation about why does this fundamentally matter towards overall goal which is how you make Europe the best place for building scale to retain.
• 24:30
  Speaker 0: you know technology companies and practically speaking of course there's a bit of crazy crunch period in the lead up to report that typically starts after this summer.
• 24:42
  Speaker 0: We are thinking about themes we've kind alluded all through year, I think it is really a report that ultimately stands on their shoulders with a lot giants.
• 24:56
  Speaker 0: if In super close collaboration with so many different partners around the report, you know.
• 25:05
  Speaker 0: With primarily primary goal of that being to make sure we always have access to their right data sets I think one thing is what can be doing?
• 25:19
  Speaker 0: To bring new fresh differentiated insight into a table.
• 25:23
  Speaker 0: because if just keep repeating same things year after year although there's some value And being able to look long between me.
• 25:29
  Speaker 0: Yeah, I ever like you know the same keep your eyes and seeing how they're developing.
• 25:35
  Speaker 0: we also want to be able to bring new perspectives in and say that partnerships are super key for them.
• 25:40
  Speaker 0: then course yeah nothing matters is just distribution.
• 25:43
  Speaker 0: i'm making sure it gets as many people as possible on and distributing a in that way.
• 25:48
  Speaker 0: um so yes very much uh very much a team effort and yeah it's like over the years we've sort of We've been able to develop the muscle of putting it all together and also try to be quite innovative in terms, making sure that we continue to evolve with content.
• 26:10
  Speaker 0: Last year for example was super cool... We worked on one of our portfolio companies Electric Twins.
• 26:16
  Speaker 0: basically generate a synthetic audience off-the-back of their annual survey which then allows you To ask any question you like of this synthetic audience that's been generated and there is a little Q&A chatbot in the website to do.
• 26:33
  Speaker 0: And similarly we work with another portfolio company of ours, Wanda Studio... ...to create some video content off-the-back of their report.
• 26:39
  Speaker 0: so yeah.. There are always new things that were trying to push the boundaries on it.... ...to keep interesting or relevant.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Well, well I'll definitely be paying attention for the sex edition as that usually have but to move on past sex.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah i don't want this become the report episode because there's more I wanna kind of talk you about here.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: so moving away from That But Still Kind Of On This Atomical Influence In History Everything It's Important To Mention That This Year Mark The Twentieth Ambers here at Atomico and you know with that in mind You've spoken about how the Ecosystem looks like when you joined.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: The things I were there are things That we're not.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: they're.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: just if you looking at the history of Atomica really How do you see?
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: The impact that it's had, And maybe even now you See the next twenty years shipping out.
• 27:34
  Speaker 0: yeah Yes Yeah as you say It was a twentieth anniversary earlier this year.
• 27:40
  Speaker 0: I think if i roll the clock back to when atomic over started you know that they're sort of founding hypothesis.
• 27:46
  Speaker 0: And the bets there though you know the nicholas made in starting a time ago was so not obvious right?
• 27:51
  Speaker 0: it wasn't.
• 27:52
  Speaker 0: your technology entrepreneurship, young would thrive from europe.
• 27:56
  Speaker 0: the betting on european european vc and as an asset class to develop also no obvious and say yeah.
• 28:04
  Speaker 0: when i think therefore about where we stand today All of these things now, you know I think have really proven themselves to be.
• 28:13
  Speaker 0: fundamentally You know the right bets and i think we've come in an enormous way In terms of just proving the importance.
• 28:23
  Speaker 0: Proving their value, proving they're global relevance of European entrepreneurship and European technology.
• 28:28
  Speaker 0: And so from an Atomaco perspective it's great too having been a small part To do that, you know i think this was always atomico's mission from inception.
• 28:39
  Speaker 0: as a consequence we've always tried to play whether it's through the state of european tech or many other different initiatives.
• 28:47
  Speaker 0: I'm really participatory role in thinking about okay like what are things at week and do?
• 28:52
  Speaker 0: two units basically help for their broad vision for European entrepreneurship to be realized inside.
• 29:02
  Speaker 0: Yeah, I think you know.
• 29:03
  Speaker 0: certainly in hearing Nicholas reflect on twenty years of atomic are i think that was absolutely what he would say has been.
• 29:09
  Speaker 0: one of the most important achievements is there.
• 29:11
  Speaker 0: We put european entrepreneurship and we've really championed for helping to create better conditions to allow generations of European entrepreneurs to succeed.
• 29:25
  Speaker 0: nothing was being amazing right and obviously we had a a look at this through our own portfolio.
• 29:30
  Speaker 0: companies is just seeing how much greater the success has been than anything we could have imagined.
• 29:39
  Speaker 0: At the inception of Atomaco, I think that the ecosystem itself has massively overachieved to the upside.
• 29:48
  Speaker 0: back then certainly twenty years ago when were really talking about first world building hundred million Euro-dollar companies, raising growth rounds in ten million increments.
• 30:05
  Speaker 0: That was sort of where the bar was and obviously like today we talk about trillion euro companies.
• 30:10
  Speaker 0: then we talked about billion euro rounds.
• 30:15
  Speaker 0: those are the norm.
• 30:16
  Speaker 0: I think that just gives you such a sense how far things have come
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Well, what do you say then?
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: to a lot of because I would hear from many founders of kind of the two Blocks.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: for them and many other people we are mature unicorn founder right.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: so they talk about this from deep experience.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah is one course regulation which continuously comes up.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: And also access to funding which I think is especially relevant to our conversation here now.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: What do you say to these founders?
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: that's saying this still a major blockage in Europe and it's still a big distinction between the kind of path-to success available across the pond, versus what's available
• 31:01
  Speaker 0: at Europe?
• 31:05
  Speaker 0: Yeah!
• 31:11
  Speaker 0: Building on the front lines and doing hard work underground are closest to understanding what a barrier is, it's greater success into even bigger outcomes.
• 31:26
  Speaker 0: And that by the way completely reflected in all of our founder surveys we've done through years with their report about things.
• 31:38
  Speaker 0: holding them back from moving faster and moving at a greater scale is basically the friction of trying to operate across European markets.
• 31:48
  Speaker 0: And then, effectively we've been bootstrapping this ecosystem and systematically underfunding innovation here in Europe.
• 32:00
  Speaker 0: Of course like... We're not the only ones who put that out there because I lost count now with the amount reports have being developed to diagnose these issues.
• 32:08
  Speaker 0: in spite of these hurdles, we've seen remarkable success.
• 32:16
  Speaker 0: And something that I wrote about recently was what happens when regulation goes right?
• 32:25
  Speaker 0: To me the prime example is if you look and trace why Europe's had success When it comes to fintech You can You know things like pc one pc two and sort of the arc.
• 32:39
  Speaker 0: if you have financial services regulation that emerge.
• 32:43
  Speaker 0: That played a role in kind opening an opportunity to generation companies like revolute like carna monson.
• 32:50
  Speaker 0: twenty six wise yes so many others.
• 32:53
  Speaker 0: i'm the kind of road the rails there, get these things right.
• 33:12
  Speaker 0: When it comes to capital, when we did our tenth anniversary edition one of the things that was said is what's seen this scale coming in?
• 33:21
  Speaker 0: basically ten X over a decade so dramatic improvements and also importantly the sophistication the kind of quality and value that investors can bring to founders.
• 33:40
  Speaker 0: And yet, in spite an order-of-magnitude increase we're still almost behind on a relative basis.
• 33:48
  Speaker 0: where you've seen things grow in the
• 33:50
  Speaker 0: U.S.,
• 33:50
  Speaker 0: I think this is one of the constants which has always been like... We could make forward progress but the world does not stay still.
• 34:01
  Speaker 0: so Take things for granted that even though we've moved the needle in a super positive way, um That weekend.
• 34:09
  Speaker 0: Yeah We can sort of you know Just not continue to be proactive and campaigning for more and and And so yeah I think that's uh You know?
• 34:21
  Speaker 0: That's why you continue to hear from from founders as you say there Hey look great then we've made all these positive changes But let's make sure that we also fix these things.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, no way.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: And you're right because even though there are these complaints and critiques it's always done through the same angle that your doing of a positive thing in saying yes those hurdles exist but we have overcome previous hurdles when they process overcoming this.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: But its important to still acknowledge them and not pretend nothing is going on that could be addressed.
• 34:57
  Speaker 0: Yeah I think one other things I think it's sort of underrated is just how important.
• 35:06
  Speaker 0: It is to actually have a positive narrative.
• 35:10
  Speaker 0: and you know, i think that ultimately You will drive much more change in followership an action if you inspire And get people to believe in opportunity.
• 35:25
  Speaker 0: Then if you are constantly um, you know inner place of kind you know, and then negative mindset of well in doom and gloom.
• 35:35
  Speaker 0: And say yeah I remember like a couple years ago we were on a particularly gloomy period for European tech?
• 35:45
  Speaker 0: So at that time it was more important than ever to step into the narrative that is, yeah it's positive.
• 36:02
  Speaker 0: It's ambitious and its solution oriented if you like.
• 36:10
  Speaker 0: so yeah...it's kind of interesting.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Well, it's... I think as much of the success that Tomoko is saying and even the success we've seen at you starts evident in fact.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: That there's an interest There's audience And money flowing In a kind direction.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: It becomes more positive More unified.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: We talked about sovereignty mentioned at beginning.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: These are all things mattering.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: All these things seem to be agreeing on Yeah, and a continent level which is a bit unprecedented.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: I feel that you know we're made of all these Single markets.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: And yet We all seem to say no No there's space to grow and their space to kind of have one overarching layer That we can all kind of benefit from.
• 36:59
  Speaker 0: yeah, and they think you know ultimately um We have to do that right because i think To be truly Competitive and to truly matter on the global scale.
• 37:11
  Speaker 0: We need that alliance, you know at continental scale To make sure we're really relevant And ultimately have the right leverage in conversations with other Global superpowers.
• 37:28
  Speaker 0: So it's just so fundamentally critical.
• 37:31
  Speaker 0: It is great how this consensus I think of course You know you do see competition between different member states, different countries continue to be a challenge understandably.
• 37:46
  Speaker 0: But yeah I mean certainly from our perspective we're optimistic that alignment is there and then there's good examples now of where kind of alliance in collaboration it really happening?
• 37:58
  Speaker 0: And ultimately what?
• 38:01
  Speaker 0: What's really been my reflection from kind of documenting how this ecosystem has grown and evolved.
• 38:07
  Speaker 0: The reality is, there are talent capital ideas product services like these all developed on a very cross-border basis in an organic way.
• 38:19
  Speaker 0: anyway if you just look at any whether your stock home or in Berlin or London The nationalities that make up the teams behind any given company, you will absolutely see not just European diversity but global diversity in terms of talent brought together to work towards a common goal.
• 38:45
  Speaker 0: It's kind of so fundamental already for our ecosystem.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Well, to follow this example.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: I think it's good.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: tend on this positive note.
• 38:54
  Speaker 0: Yeah
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: On the positive idea of what we're doing is good and it's making an impact And we're going in the right way.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: so wanna thank you Tom for his conversation.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: It was worth a wait In my opinion.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: iIwas very glad We got it done and yes Thank You Very Much.
• 39:10
  Speaker 0: No look!it Was really fun To chat and um...you know..i think also i will do My bit now too which Is I think when i think about the fundamental ingredients and components of what matters, basically infrastructure required to support this ecosystem.
• 39:31
  Speaker 0: An amazing storytelling layer is just so fundamental right?
• 39:41
  Speaker 0: Having a real estate tell the stories of what's working, both challenging in a super constructive way but also being able to you know highlight success stories is so important.
• 39:54
  Speaker 0: I think we've underestimated it for a long time and so its great that.
• 39:57
  Speaker 0: Well, thank you.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Thank it's very kind of you.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: we do try and uh We could do a whole other episode on start-up journalism And tech journalism.
• 40:11
  Speaker 0: Yeah I'd love to put some questions
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: for ya.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: I mean yeah You might regret that i'm an open book when It comes To these things but well have to consider.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: So yes, thank you very much Tom.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: It's been great on the YouStarbs side and hopefully we'll have it back soon!
• 40:31
  Speaker 0: Yeah Great Thankyou.
• 40:32
  Speaker 0: anytime Thanks
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Tom
• 40:35
  Speaker 0: Cheers.