Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 15 - Was Tiamat Leviathan?

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Ep. 15 - Was Tiamat Leviathan? · Martyr's Row

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Luke, the evangelist, was the author of the gospel
0:04
which goes under his name. He traveled with Paul
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through various countries and is supposed to
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have been hanged on an olive tree by the idolatrous
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priests of Greece. Welcome to Martyrs Row. Welcome
0:36
back. Episode 15. That's crazy. It's some type
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of milestone. It's gotta be. Yeah. I mean, you
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get your learner's permit, I guess. Isn't it
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16 now? Didn't they up it? Oh, I have no idea.
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I mean, I'm not in that position. I'm way too
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far removed. If I can't get it now. Yeah, that's
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true. Yeah, I don't know. That would be wild.
1:01
So then when can you actually drive? 18? And
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it may depend on the state. Well that's always
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been true. Yeah. I thought it was like 15 and
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a half universally to get your learners. Oh,
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15 and a half? That's what it was in Ohio. That
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sounds like an Ohio thing. But then at 16 you
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can get your drivers. Why 15 and a half? I don't
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know. That doesn't make any sense. So it's like
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you get your learners and then six months later
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you can get your driver's license. That seems
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irresponsible probably Be like there's like you
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have to get certain amount of hours behind the
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wheel. Yeah. Yeah, but why would they give you
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less time than everybody else? We're all driving
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tractors there It just seems weird. So you had
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to calculate what day is the half? Yeah How I
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mean that just seems like too much work It's
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maybe my parents has told me that it could be
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a lie. Oh, that's probably definitely true That
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has to be true. That doesn't make any sense.
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Otherwise, I don't know. Yeah. If you're from
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Ohio, let us know. Let me know. Did my parents
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lie to me? Parents also comment. No, you've got
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to wait until six months. Or they were just like,
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oh, we forgot. You know what's terrible? Up until
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that point, I never wore glasses. Mmm, but I
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needed glasses for probably about a year or two.
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Okay, but did you know that um, I had a suspicion,
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okay? But I was in two. I was too embarrassed
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like I don't want to be a four -eyes Like I'm
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not gonna say anything so you were so what you're
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eight years old no, I was like 13 14 and you're
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like, nah, I don't want to be a four -eyed That's
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why I said you were eight. Oh, yeah now I get
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it Some of us mature differently It's just an
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Ohio thing Yeah fuel my music I got bullied get
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some glasses Stay tuned, you'll hear that music
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in a little bit. Hear what the power of bullied
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by glasses can get you. The power of bullied
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by glasses. That's a weird sentence. It is. There's
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a lot to unpack there. But that's not what we're
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here for today. No, but I was going to say it's
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funny because I took my learner's permit test
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because they give you like an eye exam and you've
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got to take like the written test. Yeah, yeah.
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And I was blind as a bat. But I was too afraid
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to say anything. And also I didn't really understand,
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I just thought I couldn't see anything. But I
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was like, I convinced myself that everyone saw
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this way. Did you think that, or did you actually
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convince yourself? I think I convinced myself.
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Because it was like a slow regression where it's
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like, I'm starting to see less. And you're like,
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huh, I guess everybody does this. Yeah, it was
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to the point one day where... I was in class,
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and I had to sit all the way in the front just
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to barely read the board. And you're like, how
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do people in the back? Yeah, I'm like, they can't
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see anything. So I'd always be like, hey, can
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you read off the board real quick for me? I just
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want to make sure I didn't miss anything. Yeah.
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It was just my sneaky ways, like, I can't see
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anything. And then I took my... my permit test
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and barely made it through the eye exam. Oh,
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you passed the eye exam? I did, yeah. No way!
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It was a total guess. I guessed every single
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thing. Well, apparently I didn't guess well enough.
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Okay. Because the lady turned to my mom. They
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were onto you. And she was like, does he wear
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glasses? And she goes, no, why? She's like, he
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should. He's real close. That's what she said.
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He's real close. He's going to need them soon.
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And I drove for a few months without glasses
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still. No, they didn't put the restriction on?
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No, because I technically passed. Weird. Yeah.
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And my driving was horrible. I'm sure. I was
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so bad. And I kept missing the roads I was supposed
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to turn down. I couldn't read the sign. Mom was
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like, yeah, turn at such and such road. I'm like,
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OK. That was it. Was it? Well, as soon as I got
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glasses. And you're like, look, I've only been
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driving for six months. Yeah, I'm so new. I didn't
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have a whole year like they do in Florida. They
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have a whole year, mom. Yeah, well, then I finally
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got glasses and I realized that trees have individual
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leaves on them. And I was like, oh, I can read.
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Yeah, so you want to hear something crazy? Yeah.
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Same thing happened to me. Are you serious? Yeah,
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I'm responding to you like this is. Exactly.
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You're responding like I'm the only one. I did
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that intentionally I Just say like whoa, that's
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weird. So same exact thing. Are you serious?
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Yeah, but the weird thing is is like I didn't
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I didn't I didn't know but I also Didn't think
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I was like I didn't think my vision was bad.
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Oh Interesting. So like it wasn't as bad. I think
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as yours must have been but Because what's your
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prescription? I have no idea. It just docs our
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prescriptions. I don't know. I could pull it
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up. Just call your eye doctor. Hey, real quick.
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I know it's 4 a .m. What's my prescription? That's
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a little hint back to if you've watched the first
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episode or the trailer, actually. Yeah, the trailer.
6:35
Yeah. But no, I yeah. So same thing. But I didn't
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know. I also didn't think my eyes were that bad.
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I just like same like similar thing. I just thought
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that like Things didn't have definition. Okay.
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Yeah, but I could still see stuff Because my
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vision is not that bad That's helpful and I'm
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nearsighted. Oh, so that's like so waiting as
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you can see near Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, cuz
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that's me suit me too. Yeah, I can see close,
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but I can't see far. Yeah, okay Got that I can't
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talk but that is confusing though. It's like
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why do we decide to define certain things? By
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what it's lacking or by what it yeah possesses.
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We don't know which is which yeah, well, let's
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be consistent Yeah, I don't know that doesn't
7:30
make sense, but yeah, please world Please chaos
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be a little more organized But yeah, so like
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that was that was an interesting thing too because
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then I was like wait what I I failed it and I
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had there's failed it yeah, because I I actually
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just didn't know so I wasn't like you I wasn't
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like trying to like trick everybody yeah and
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to be fair like I think the only reason I passed
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is because I got a good look at it before I had
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to go behind too far before well you you knew
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because I looked at it and I was just like yeah
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yeah so you probably like gained a better memory
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Nice, I'm blind Well, not anymore though, I guess
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no now my memory stinks But yeah, I don't that
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was weird I'd like yeah, so I just failed it
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and they were like, oh you can't see you need
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glasses to drive You can't see and I was like
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wait what so when I was 15, I had to get glasses.
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That's crazy Yeah a whole six months before you
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did I mean, we're not the same age, but we had
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the same amount of time on the road. That's true
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But um, but yeah, so so same thing and put glasses
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on Driving down the road like oh they're yeah
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trees aren't just green blobs Yeah, it's like
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oh, they're actually like leaves on theirs So
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if you're a person who saw trees for the first
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time write your age in the comments with no context
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Just write your age That's like the, not your
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current age, the age you wear when you saw leaves
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for the first time. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you
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wear glasses. Or if you don't. And if you don't,
9:14
and you can't see leaves, you should probably
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get glasses. This is your warning sign. This
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is your realization moment, like Paul and I had
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when we were at the DMV. And you know what's
9:26
interesting, since we're talking about medical
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stuff. Okay. Do you know who else was a medical
9:31
practitioner? Who? Our boy Luke. You got me.
9:34
You got me. I knew it was coming. I knew you
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did. Wow, I did not see that one coming. Just
9:44
this whole episode, I'm just trying to gaslight
9:46
you. Yeah. You're like, no actually I did not
9:49
see that coming. I'm trying to like in a bad
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way gaslight you so that it's so obvious. What?
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Huh? Like there's no way you didn't see that.
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You're so good at this Paul. We're an hour in
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and you're like, dude, okay, come on. Oh enough
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is enough. Okay, I'm gaslit, okay? Whoa, I'm
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stopping. I stopped like 30 minutes ago. You
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did? Yeah. You're just paranoid now. You're paranoid.
10:19
Got PTSD gas lighting. PTSD gas. Gas? Lighting.
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Lighting. Sorry. That was a laugh brick. Yeah,
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it was good. But you know what's funny? So anyways.
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So anyways, what I was trying to say. Don't gaslight
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me please! If you've been gaslit comment below
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the age at which you were gaslit It might coincide
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with the first time you saw leaves yeah, or just
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your parenting your parents parenting the truth
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This is our parent every parent gaslights their
11:06
kids You kind of have to you because they won't
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stop talking especially me imagine me as a kid
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yeah Did unicorns actually, like, run down the
11:15
street? Yes. Yes. Just, can you just stop for
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a little bit? I just need to make a phone call.
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That's what, um, I was joking with friends of
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ours at your church. Um, recently. That sounds
11:29
so weird. I don't know if I can name -jap out
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of here. It doesn't matter. And it was funny,
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your kids were running around just being goofy.
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And we were joking. We were like, they are Steven's
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intrusive thoughts that he holds back. Then your
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wife just goes, I have to live with three of
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them. It's true. Sometimes she'll look at me
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and be like, that's what you used to do. This
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is you. Yeah, it's pretty funny like my youngest
12:00
was like our coffee table is yeah almost the
12:04
same height as the couch and He was like in his
12:07
pajamas and he just like slowly slid his whole
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body onto the coffee table from the couch and
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just had his head resting on the couch and I
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looked at My wife is like what and I was like
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I've definitely done that. I have definitely
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done that You know, you have your feet up on
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the coffee table, and you just slowly slide your
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whole body onto the coffee. It's actually really
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comfortable. I know! Yeah. Okay, so Paul's done
12:33
it too. I also do the thing where I lay with
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my head on the seat of the couch, and both my
12:39
legs are up in the air against the wall. I do
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that too. It's so cozy. Here's the thing. Welcome
12:44
to Martyrs Row, where Paul and I are in real
12:47
time realizing that we're this. Where Paul tries
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to say something, and then we go off on tangents.
12:53
No, it's the podcast where Paul and I realize
12:56
that we're the same person. It's so true. Just
12:59
slowly, one story at a time, surprising each
13:02
other with, isn't this weird about me? Me too.
13:05
It's not that weird. Yeah. While all of you go,
13:08
guys, you're the only ones. It's exclusive to
13:12
the two of you. We think because it's both of
13:15
us that everyone... We've guessed it ourselves.
13:20
It's like well if there's at least one other
13:22
person there's got to be a thousand. That's the
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sample size. I need it. Yeah This room right
13:28
now They were the same we're the same everyone's
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the same we're also both wearing flannel. It's
13:35
kind of awesome There is so much similar that
13:39
we have going on I know you can't even see you
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should see what kind of feet we have yeah 17
13:46
toes. Oh, that's a different episode. That's
13:49
a different episode. Or is it? We need like a
13:52
sign that goes different episode. Actually, yeah,
13:56
just slapping on. Yeah. It's like a seal, like
14:00
a warning seal. Cattle prod. So what were we
14:05
talking about? um the physician yeah you know
14:08
what else he did though what is especially amongst
14:12
theologians and scholars he's considered one
14:15
um a very one of the greater historians of our
14:19
time as well or of our time his time let me put
14:23
that let me put that differently his time that's
14:26
also a different episode and he was not but what's
14:31
interesting that if you look up a list of who
14:33
the who are the some of the greatest ancient
14:35
historians okay his name won't show up okay But
14:40
if you look into the details of how people talk
14:42
about his writing and his accounts, they actually
14:45
like, oh no, he's actually insanely detailed.
14:48
His precision with geographical markers, with
14:51
names, with customs, the approach he had to history
14:55
is about as precise as you can get, which is
15:00
incredible. But the reason he's left out of like,
15:04
like Herodotus or Tacitus or Plutarch or any
15:07
of these guys, is because he has a motivation
15:11
to write this theological narrative. And so he's
15:15
kind of pulled out of the historians because
15:17
he doesn't attempt to be unbiased. But as far
15:22
as his methods, he is on par with everybody else.
15:26
That makes sense. Which is impressive. They acknowledge
15:29
him. Yes. But... They don't put him in the historical
15:33
category. Yeah. Because they put him in what
15:36
category, Paul? More of a theological category.
15:39
Okay. But in storytelling, what would the category
15:42
be? Oh. It's a myth. Wait, it's a what? A myth,
15:49
myth. Oh, we're not there yet. No, we're not
15:50
there yet. Okay. Do you want to get there? Let's
15:53
get there. Let's write a song first, though.
15:54
About myth? Yeah. Three, two, one. And here we
15:59
are. To the back room. To the back room. This
16:04
is the piano room. Welcome to the piano room.
16:10
Decided to show you that Paul knows how to play
16:12
piano. If you learn anything on this episode,
16:18
that would be it. That's it. Hopefully that's
16:22
all you learn. I hope they learn more than that.
16:27
We'll see. Only in this segment that's it. Yeah.
16:30
So we're just going to kind of go for it. Nothing
16:33
planned. No. A few ideas, directions, but we'll
16:37
let your fingers lead the way. Sounds good. Ready?
16:40
Yeah. Let's go. Three, two, no. Okay. Off the
16:45
dome. Here we go. Death and dying And now you're
17:24
with me But I stand on the shoulders Of all who
17:38
came before I was killed It's a Paul turn around.
19:04
Just like he did Three two one Well, that was
20:30
a little bit different. Yeah, it was kind of
20:32
fun So hopefully the audio is good cuz and then
20:35
we'll stop talking about it Everyone's like skip
20:38
Bad audio No, hopefully we'll work on it. It'll
20:43
sound great. We won't know right now though.
20:45
We'll have to figure that out later You'll find
20:48
out slightly after we do yeah, so Paul yeah,
20:51
we've been on like a three -episode bender at
20:54
this point. We've just become church pastors.
20:58
I'm gonna do a 472 -part series. Well, just three.
21:03
I mean, three is reasonable. But I feel like
21:06
we're gonna keep going. Well, maybe. We'll see.
21:08
The day I get to pick up and read out of that
21:10
notebook, the day the series is over. I know.
21:15
But I feel like that's one of the things that
21:18
this podcast is building to. It's one of those
21:22
things where like it's kind of becoming an answer
21:24
like yeah, each episode is kind of designing
21:28
and building out framework Because that's one
21:30
of the things we talk about a lot is like really
21:33
creating the room defining terms Like building
21:36
building the cathedral that people can walk into
21:39
and have discussions about Yeah, and I think
21:42
that's important because that's it's really easy
21:45
With especially with this stuff that you know,
21:48
we've been looking at for a long time now. Yeah
21:51
Spend a lot of time in which is probably very
21:53
new to a lot of people sure To some extent and
21:57
so it's easy to be like I'm all all the way up
22:00
here as far as like I'm just way down this path
22:03
Yeah, and it's easy for me to stand higher up
22:05
on the mountain big. Hey, you should be up here,
22:07
right? And you're like, okay, but how do I get
22:09
there? Yeah, and it's like it's not fair for
22:11
me just to keep yelling at you Like why aren't
22:12
you up here and be like, no, here's the path
22:14
to get here now. Let's go together. Yeah And
22:17
in some ways, I feel like that is something that's
22:19
important that I feel like Martyrs Row is intending
22:21
to do, is creating that cathedral that we can
22:26
walk into and we can live in. Because I think
22:29
going to Sunday school or going to small groups
22:33
or Bible study or whatever you're going to, a
22:36
lot of times you can take a passage or you can
22:39
take a book of the Bible and you can talk about
22:41
that and create this framework. In a lot of ways
22:45
the way that you would when you read a book and
22:47
now you have all these images in your head Yeah,
22:49
and it's creating this framework that you can
22:51
live within and then a lot of times what happens
22:53
is we take that subject or we take that book
22:56
of the Bible or that Bible study or that Sunday
22:58
school lesson and It disconnects from the next
23:02
one we do so like then then we go to another
23:05
Bible study or the book that we're reading or
23:08
studying Changes now all the sudden the space
23:12
that we're in is looks different Yeah, but it's
23:14
it shouldn't look different because it's part
23:16
of the same story and that's one thing I think
23:18
that yeah, like you're saying trying to bridge
23:20
those two things. That's what we care a lot about.
23:23
It's like, no, let's show this is all the same
23:25
story. Yeah, we need to keep building out one
23:28
space. We're in a different room, but that's
23:29
the door to the other room that we were just
23:31
in. Yeah, yeah. And the exterior all looks the
23:34
same. It's all one building. Yeah. Yeah. And
23:37
in some ways, it's like create the rooms and
23:40
then knock the walls out. Yeah. and just kind
23:42
of go like, oh, we're all in, this is all one
23:45
thing. And so, yeah, I think the less segmented
23:48
we are with that, the better. So in some ways,
23:51
it's, you know, being three into one topic. And
23:58
I guess we're not really three into one topic.
24:00
Which is also, it's like, the whole thing is
24:01
like this whole topic. I feel like we've been
24:05
building to this moment for a long time. This
24:10
one? I feel like the one we're building to is
24:12
a period. Well, we're building to another moment,
24:14
too. But I feel like even to this point that
24:16
we're at, it's like, this is a huge thing that
24:18
we're talking about. Yeah. But if we just came
24:21
on episode one talking about this, that's true.
24:23
Everyone would be like, tune out. That's true.
24:25
That's a good point. So it's like, yeah, it's
24:27
a pathway that we're all going through. And it's
24:29
like, now we can say this. And it's like, oh
24:31
yeah, I know that makes sense. Yeah. At least
24:33
based on how we've approached it. Yeah, and you
24:35
might be listening to it. through the front segments
24:38
and you hear what we're saying now and you're
24:40
like, I don't, I mean, I haven't listened to
24:43
anything up to this point, but you know, to be
24:47
honest, like for us, we're building that in a
24:51
way where we want you to come along and then
24:53
just go backwards if you need the framework.
24:56
So like, we feel comfortable saying it, not because
24:58
we know that you've listened to all the previous
25:00
episodes, but because we know we've done the
25:03
previous episodes. So it's like, well, at least
25:06
what I'm saying is in context of this podcast
25:09
and the conversation that's happening. So if
25:12
you're like, hmm, I'm very lost. Go back. You
25:16
gotta go back a few episodes. A lot of it. Maybe
25:23
you don't, like maybe you just jump around on
25:26
the questions that look interesting. So speaking
25:29
of questions, I've got one for you Paul. It's
25:36
not a cheesy one. Darn it. My question for you
25:42
is, are you ready? I'm always ready. I've always
25:49
got to remember my questions. The glowing object
25:52
on your knee? There's illumination coming up
25:57
from underneath. My knee is illuminated. Light
26:02
comes down, not from the depths. So here's my
26:08
question, Paul. Was Tiamat Leviathan? Not first
26:15
and last name. Was Tiamat Leviathan? Hello, nice
26:21
to meet you, Tiamat Leviathan. That's a wild
26:23
name. Powerful. German? German. Definitely German,
26:28
right? Or Nordic? Nordic, I would go more, if
26:31
you like. That would be, that you're contemplating.
26:34
Dang. What does that human look like? I don't
26:37
want to know. Just tree trunks for arms. Oh man.
26:42
Yeah, so was Tiamat Leviathan? Answer me that.
26:45
Riddle me this Well, that's a great question
26:51
thanks, I just came up with it Those those names
27:00
are just rattling around in my brain all day
27:02
just like I gotta ask yeah, I gotta ask Paul's
27:05
gotta know this answer Well, so it's interesting
27:08
so for those that do know If you if you know
27:12
Tia might just wrap the rip you're in the right
27:14
place not a great guy No. Also, guys, interesting
27:20
monster to describe. Well, Leviathan might be
27:25
more familiar. And I'm not talking about the
27:28
book by, what's that guy's name? I almost had
27:31
it. Oh, yeah, I don't know. The philosopher.
27:34
You know, I was so disappointed when I read that
27:36
book for the first time. John Doe. Yeah, Mr.
27:38
John Doe. Moby Dick? Anyway. What's that monster's
27:45
name? That's it The white whale no isn't there
27:51
a sea creature yeah the whale no isn't there
27:54
like a huge octopus in it oh Probably never mind.
27:59
I always think of 30 ,000 weeks under the sea
28:00
that might be what I did that as well That's
28:03
a great movie the ocean is a scary place. It's
28:06
a scary place. It gets scarier. It does there's
28:08
a reason for that Okay, I think why well before
28:11
we get there, okay? We kind of are getting there.
28:14
So is the water scary Leviathan Levi Leviathan
28:18
Ask that. Yeah, Paul. Why is the water scary?
28:22
Why am I so scared of the water? Well, so Paul
28:26
answer me I've got a beach twit plant. Why am
28:31
I so scared of the water? It just keeps getting
28:35
darker and darker down there Don't be scared
28:52
child. Oh, you're supposed to tell me that don't
28:54
be scared child. Okay, just Leviathan down You're
29:02
gonna kid oh boy What's my hope? I'll actually
29:09
read that for you. But I do want to say, for
29:13
those that aren't familiar with what Leviathan
29:15
is. We have fun. We do have so much fun. That
29:20
one you can see throughout scripture. And that
29:22
one you can see here. Exhibit A. Leviathan. I
29:27
think it's in two references to it in scripture.
29:31
It's a little tiny. Yeah, just a little tiny
29:34
one. A 3D character. I should edit that in. That
29:38
would take years. Maybe. Disney animators? Please?
29:42
Pixar? Put a little water monster here. Yeah.
29:46
Just something. It's just a picture of me in
29:49
the pool. Please, mister! Well, it's a sea monster.
29:57
And we actually see it... in Psalm 74, so I'm
30:02
gonna start in chapter, in verse, chapter 74,
30:07
verse 12. I'm gonna see what you hear when I
30:12
read this to you. You're gonna see what I hear.
30:14
I wanna hear what you hear. I wanna understand
30:18
what you hear. Okay, I'm gonna close my eyes
30:20
and listen. Just so much you hear. Viewers, stop
30:24
looking at us. Close your eyes. And listen. Yet
30:27
God, My king is from of old, working salvation
30:31
in the midst of the earth. You, God, divided
30:36
the sea by your might. You broke the heads of
30:39
the sea monsters on the waters. You crushed the
30:42
heads of Leviathan. You gave him as food for
30:45
the creatures of the wilderness. You split open
30:47
springs and brooks. You dried up ever flowing
30:50
streams. Yours is the day, yours also the night.
30:54
You have established the heavenly light and lights
30:57
and the sun. You have fixed all the boundaries
31:00
of the earth. You have made summer and winter.
31:05
Well, Paul, to me, that sounds like a creation
31:07
story. That's great. That's exactly what it is.
31:11
But wait, Paul, I'm confused. Yes. That's in
31:14
the Psalms. Isn't that interesting? Why? Not
31:18
why is it interesting? Why is it in the Psalms?
31:22
How do the psalmist know these things? Well,
31:24
so that's I thought is a whole other episode
31:27
that is actually just why is there so much? Context
31:31
in the Psalms. There's a there's a lot and I
31:34
think just like with music There's so much we
31:37
can express through music that we can't express
31:39
normally. Yeah true And I think the psalmist
31:42
often capture that in how they write. That makes
31:48
sense. Which I think is really cool. But what
31:50
I find fascinating this is because there's a
31:52
few tropes that we see here to kind of really
31:55
establish what he's talking about. One of them
31:58
being that he's talking about the creatures of
32:02
the wilderness, which is wild. He's opening springs
32:05
and brooks. He dried up the ever -flowing streams.
32:09
And he says, yours is the day and the night.
32:12
That's a classic Creation that we see in Genesis
32:16
creation. Yeah, true where it's there was day
32:19
and there was night Yeah, and then you've established
32:22
the heavenly light lights and of the Sun. It's
32:24
like, oh well, we see that too He fixed the boundaries
32:26
of the earth. We see that right he made summer
32:29
in winter. It's like, oh, so you're saying that
32:30
you created all things, right? It's like that's
32:34
Fascinating it is especially because it's like
32:37
we and this is one of the things we've been talking
32:39
about it's like he's He didn't just come up with
32:43
the name Leviathan. Mm -hmm. So the psalmist
32:46
here and does it specify it's David? I keep that's
32:50
always that's a good question But like the psalmist
32:53
here regardless of if it's David or not a masculine
32:56
ASAP Okay, boy ASAP. So a mask a mask ill Know
33:02
ASAP is where he's from. Oh, so a mask. Oh a
33:06
little a mask a little mask a little mask Oh
33:09
So I'll just call him the psalmist. What is a
33:15
maskel? I don't think that's a name. A little
33:19
rascal? I don't think that's a name. Please sir,
33:22
just a little rascal. I think his name is Asaph,
33:27
personally. Of Asaph. But it's like a maskel.
33:32
Like a David. Like a dirge from Asaph. This is
33:36
like a little thingy scribbled on a napkin. People
33:39
know this answer. Smarter than us. Thank you
33:41
guys. Yeah on a dictionary Just comment below.
33:44
I want to place this back over here. Okay the
33:47
glowing light from below the illumination But
33:52
no, I think it's interesting because the the
33:54
psalmist here is not making like it's not like
33:57
you That's a really good point that like a lyricist
34:01
or a musician is kind of taking stories Yeah,
34:04
and they are putting melody to them in order
34:08
for them to be passed along from generation to
34:10
generation Yeah, stories to be learned and understood
34:13
and heard right? Yeah Like honestly one of the
34:16
this is kind of a funny thing but castle on the
34:19
hill Do you know that song just by the name not
34:22
by the name? So it's an Ed Sheeran song. Okay
34:26
It's it's like I love the song because it has
34:28
like this it's like very If you know the song
34:36
you're like I get what he's trying to do yeah
34:38
But it's one of those songs where it's like it's
34:42
it's quick and upbeat But the lyrics are you
34:45
know he's describing people that he grew up with
34:48
oh, that's cool, and in the castle on the hill
34:50
is is like Like because he's Irish so it's like
34:54
there was a castle near where they lived Yeah,
34:59
there's a castle I guess near the town that they
35:01
lived in and they would go sit on the hill and
35:03
look at the castle like kind of how Like for
35:06
calling back on those memories that he had yeah
35:09
And it was like these are the people that rate
35:10
like telling the stories of these people and
35:13
like kind of solidifying them and I and that
35:15
made me think about like Jesus and the lady that
35:19
that breaks the jar at his feet, right? And he
35:22
says, I tell you the truth, wherever this, wherever
35:27
it is told about me, this woman will always be
35:31
remembered for what she's sacrificed, right?
35:34
So it's like that type of thing. It's like the
35:37
stories and particularly songs where it writes
35:40
down and records these stories for us and specific
35:44
characters. So ASAP is not. or the Psalmist is
35:49
not coming up with the name Leviathan. No, and
35:54
what's interesting about it too is the order
35:57
of events that he places it as, where before
36:00
God sets the boundaries of the earth, before
36:04
he creates the seasons and the night and the
36:06
day, we see that there is this quote unquote
36:09
battle where he beheads the sea monsters and
36:12
he kills Leviathan. And it's like, oh, well that's
36:16
fascinating yeah and especially when we look
36:18
at the idea of what Leviathan is which we talked
36:22
about which is a sea monster right we see that
36:25
as well and it's like okay so this is a creation
36:30
myth right I say that with context of our previous
36:33
episode sure yeah and it's like okay but does
36:37
it add detail or does it just clarify detail
36:41
that's already in the Genesis accounts? And I
36:43
think that's the interesting thing for me. It's
36:46
like, no, this stuff's actually already kind
36:48
of alluded to in Genesis. Now, what it doesn't
36:53
mean, because I don't think we can take it too
36:55
far necessarily. We can't just say, oh, yep,
36:58
there were sea monsters here. That's not really
37:00
what it's trying to say. But what it's trying
37:03
to say is, there was chaos, and God ordered the
37:06
chaos. He killed the chaos by creating order.
37:10
And we see that because what happens, it's like,
37:12
well, in the beginning, God created the heavens.
37:15
He talks about setting the heavens in place.
37:20
He created the heavens and the earth, and the
37:22
earth was, Paul's word, chaos. It was without
37:26
form and void. And it's like, okay, so what is
37:28
that? It's like, well, I think there's a really
37:30
strong case like that is water. Yeah, especially
37:33
when we look at I don't know if we've talked
37:34
about it on this podcast before But it says in
37:38
the spirit of God was hovering over the face
37:40
of the deep. Yeah now the word deep there is
37:43
to home and what's fascinating about that is
37:47
That word is the hebrew version of a mesopotamian
37:52
word. Okay I'm trying to remember the language.
37:57
We'll go with that. And that word, which there's
38:00
a specific word. Do you have it on your notepad?
38:03
Not the name of the word. But basically, Tahom
38:07
is the Hebrew version of the Mesopotamian word,
38:12
Tiamat. OK. It's like, oh, well, that's interesting.
38:16
Yeah. And why is that interesting? Because Tiamat
38:17
is a sea monster who Marduk, their god, Beheads
38:21
and creates the the skies and the waters, right?
38:25
He separates. He separates Tiamat Yeah, and it's
38:28
like so we see here in Genesis that The the spirit
38:32
of God was hovering over Tiamat to home. He had
38:36
dominion He had victory over the deep the deep
38:39
and it's like well, that's so cool. But what
38:41
do we see the psalmist say? He says oh he killed
38:44
Leviathan. Yeah, and he cut its heads off. Yeah
38:48
That's that is fascinating and then he fed it
38:50
to creation. Yeah, cuz basically what you're
38:52
well, that's crazy. It's wild But yeah, so yeah,
38:57
cuz my brain is piecing all this together as
38:59
you're saying it So it's like cuz that always
39:01
that was always a thing for me is like you get
39:04
to Genesis 1 1 Genesis 1 2 and you're like this
39:07
it seems like we're missing Yeah, but the same
39:10
thing happens in Psalm 74. Yeah where you go,
39:14
all right, skies, heavens, earth, these things
39:17
are all here. And then real quick, before we
39:21
keep going, let me cut off the head of this monster.
39:24
You know what I mean? Or the heads of this monster.
39:27
Separate that. And you're like, okay, that seems
39:31
wild. Except for there's a Mesopotamian myth
39:37
that... Basically says the same thing. Absolutely.
39:40
So I didn't know that though. So so so tea like
39:44
Tiaman. Mm -hmm Am I saying that right Tiaman
39:49
that's that's how I say it. Yeah is it mean it's
39:51
right is the Hebrew Equivalent to home. Yeah
39:55
to home is a tea. Oh, I see what you're saying.
39:58
Yeah Yes, if you looked in Hebrew, sorry, that's
40:01
why I asked how you said it cuz I thought I was
40:03
saying I just, my brain thought I was saying
40:08
to Holm. Yeah, so hovering over the deep. It's
40:14
unfortunate that our translation says the deep.
40:18
Where the Hebrew word was echoing a Mesopotamian
40:22
word and they were both, if you read Psalm 74
40:26
first, then you're like, oh they're talking about
40:29
a sea monster. But in some ways, It's not necessarily
40:34
saying it's a sea monster. Right. But it's taking
40:37
advantage of people's understanding of those
40:40
motifs. Yeah. And utilizing it. Yeah. Especially
40:44
when we look at a psalmist, it's like, well,
40:46
they're using very poetic language as well. Right.
40:48
It's like, so why wouldn't they use that language?
40:50
That's what people knew. That's what they understood.
40:52
Well, to take that a step further, what the psalmist
40:55
is doing is pointing to Genesis 1 and going,
41:00
hey, Guys remember. Yeah This Hebrew word is
41:05
the same as this Mesopotamian word referencing
41:08
the the character that is like Leviathan. Yeah,
41:13
and Leviathan Tiamat It's it's all the same thing.
41:21
Yeah, and so like it's always to represent the
41:24
chaos of water Right, and it's ultimately not
41:27
even just water but just chaos. Yeah and water
41:30
typically represents chaos because of its unpredictable
41:33
nature. It's like you can't predict what it's
41:36
going to do. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, it's chaotic.
41:38
It's messy. But what's happening there and what
41:42
the psalmist calls out a little bit more plainly
41:45
for and in some ways helping us modern readers,
41:49
if we can look at that account and we can echo
41:52
it back to Genesis one, which is what the author
41:56
is trying to do. Yeah. When in reminding us the
41:59
psalm is written to remind us about Genesis 1,
42:02
right? And when we remind us about Genesis 1,
42:05
what is it doing? It's going hey Leviathan Tiamat
42:09
the deep this the sea monster that's being separated
42:13
That sea monster that deep that those waters
42:17
were not separated by Marduk. Yes, they were
42:21
separated by Yahweh. Absolutely. That's what's
42:23
happening there. Yeah So in Genesis 1 and in
42:27
Psalm 74, which gives us insight into Genesis
42:29
1, which reminds us that that word there is reaching
42:33
out to this Mesopotamian myth and going, hey,
42:36
by the way, you guys think it's Marduk? It's
42:39
not. It's Yahweh. Exactly. And that's essentially
42:41
what's happening there. Yeah. So when we set
42:44
up that in episodes beforehand, we're... Talking
42:48
about it's like you don't just come in and go.
42:50
All right, Genesis 1 This is the first time anything's
42:53
ever been written. Yeah, which is what you think
42:56
like when you grow especially if you grow up
42:58
in church You just kind of go like well the Bible
43:01
was the first thing ever written first one Yeah,
43:03
and there was no knowledge before that and it's
43:05
kind of weird when at least it was for me when
43:06
I realized oh They're actually older books, right?
43:09
There's actually older writings. Yeah in older
43:12
traditions. Yeah, but then it's like that doesn't
43:14
mean it's true. It just means it's older. Yeah,
43:17
and in a lot of ways, which we've explained this
43:19
in other episodes, is the Bible is answering
43:23
the myths of the world and redirecting them the
43:29
same way that Paul does by saying, hey, this
43:33
unknown God, this is Yahweh. This is the one
43:36
true God. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah. And so
43:41
Why is that? Dare I? So because of that. Dare
43:45
I? You dare. But because of that, that's what
43:49
we wanted to talk about, is the Bible itself
43:52
is referencing other myths in order to redirect
44:00
attention away from false gods to the one true
44:04
God, corroborating that this story is true, there's
44:12
truth here in this story. Not that there was
44:16
a sea monster, but there was a deep to tame,
44:19
there was chaos to tame. Because I feel like
44:22
I need to say that. No, it's important to say.
44:24
Leviathan, Tiamat, these monsters of the deep,
44:28
they represent chaos. So in some ways they're
44:32
like a parable, they're the myth element or the
44:37
supernatural element that is allowing us to personify
44:43
chaos. And that's the easiest way to say that.
44:45
Yeah, absolutely. But the other myths from other
44:49
places are bringing validity to the scriptures
44:53
and scripture itself, the Bible itself, is calling
44:58
back to those in multiple places. Which is cool.
45:01
Yeah, it is really cool. So, I dare you. Oh.
45:06
I've been waiting three ever since. Continue.
45:08
Continue. Okay. I dare you, Paul. Oh. So let's...
45:14
So I can't even read my own writing. So educate
45:16
us on other myths. Well, yeah. So I think, and
45:19
I like the way you set that up, because it's
45:23
one of those things where when we talked about
45:25
myths, even... In the last few episodes, we looked
45:28
at the historical reality, this handholding between
45:31
supernatural and natural, and how they try to
45:34
explain these events, utilizing, trying to answer
45:38
or explain both those things. And it's like,
45:41
yeah, we do see, and we will see, this is my
45:45
very quick setup before I just go into it, is
45:49
there are a lot of vital similarities, but there's
45:52
also differences. But I think it's important
45:56
when we look at these is, okay, what are the
45:59
things that are in common and not in common?
46:01
I think both those things are very important
46:03
for us to look at. So, speaking of Mesopotamia,
46:07
let's start right at the beginning. So this is
46:09
a collection that I wrote down of creation myths
46:13
across different civilizations. And so starting
46:16
with Mesopotamia, this is just like three quick
46:19
bullet points about what they have. So basically
46:22
for them the universe begins a primordial waters
46:26
Marduk slaying Tiamat forming earth and sky from
46:30
her body Creates humans from divine blood to
46:34
serve the gods So it's like that's pretty wild
46:38
actually yeah because of how similar it is to
46:41
the Hebrew Creation which we're familiar with
46:44
where God speaks everything into existence in
46:46
six days humans made in his image to rule earth
46:50
And it's like, yeah, so the Mesopotamian, it's
46:53
from the blood. Yeah, right. So they have this
46:56
mix of, because there is like a level of divinity
47:00
that's given to us is what they say. Whereas
47:03
for us, it's like, well, it's not that there
47:06
is divine blood given to us because scripture
47:08
is very specific in saying, no, it was his breath
47:11
that was made to animate us and give us life.
47:15
But we are elevated because of our status of
47:19
being an image bearer. not because I have divine
47:22
blood inside of me. What I find just between
47:27
those two is so fascinating is it's that small
47:30
little change in there that's actually extremely
47:33
problematic. We've talked about the importance
47:34
of bloodlines before. For the Mesopotamians to
47:38
believe that how we were created was with divine
47:43
blood, it shows that there's a level of divinity
47:47
inside of us. any kind of cross relation, or
47:54
any kind of mixture with divinity is normal.
47:58
Yeah, that's actually a good point. And it's
47:59
like, oh, well that corrupts Jesus then. It does.
48:02
And it's like, well that's super problematic.
48:05
Right. Yeah, yeah, so it's more so like, we're
48:10
of the line of these, or down line of these gods.
48:15
So, bloodline, what am I, hereditary? What am
48:20
I trying to think of? Try not to say heresy,
48:26
but hereditary. It's in that way versus being
48:30
made in the image and the likeness. And that
48:33
it's the breath of God that animates us and the
48:36
word of God. So it's like life and death and
48:39
the power of the tongue is interesting because
48:41
it's like that. It's extremely interesting. Right,
48:43
because it's one of those things where it's spoken
48:45
into existence. It's breath. the breath of God,
48:51
the ruach, the spirit of God, versus the blood
48:55
of God. So we don't have God's blood blowing
49:01
through our veins. Blood blows, right? It doesn't
49:07
flow. But that is an interesting distinction.
49:11
So it's taking one thing, it's going, here's
49:14
this myth, and going like, actually, it's not
49:17
blood, it's breath. Yeah. And it seems, again,
49:20
it doesn't seem like a big deal, but it actually
49:22
is a huge deal. Well, the biggest deal is that
49:25
it's not starting from nothing. Yeah, and that's
49:28
the other thing. It begins with primordial waters.
49:31
Where else do we see that? Not necessarily a
49:33
beginning, but what was the universe? What was
49:35
Earth? It was primordial water. It was chaos.
49:38
Yeah. Um, that's fascinating and that's just
49:40
one myth right technically. Yeah, so okay. So
49:43
here's a greek one. Um chaos births gaia Uh uranus
49:48
and other primordial gods Primordial is the word
49:51
that just keeps popping up here. I know it's
49:53
like anti -delivian. Yeah, um titans rule until
49:56
zeus overthrows them prometheus creates humans
50:01
So let's jump to a Norse. I'm going to start
50:03
just kind of reading them back to back real quick.
50:05
But real quick, Mesopotamia comes before Israel.
50:10
Yes. The Greek myth comes after. Correct. Israel.
50:15
Yeah. But is more down line of the Mesopotamian
50:19
tradition. It's pretty interesting, right? Yeah.
50:21
Yeah. So here's the Norse one, which is down
50:25
in that same line. What that means is like, if
50:27
there's a straight line this way, the Hebrew.
50:31
the Hebrew steps out of line, but the Mesopotamian
50:35
line keeps going down into the Greek. So essentially
50:39
the pagan line keeps going, but the Hebrews sidestep
50:42
it, and they go, no, it's not blood, it's breath.
50:46
No, it's not Tiamat, it's Leviathan. It's not
50:53
these, it's this. Sorry, it's not Marduk, it's
50:59
Yahweh. So that's what they're doing. They're
51:01
like sidestepping. They're like, no, this is
51:04
you're so close, but I know you're really close.
51:06
Like a lot of the details here we're doing pretty
51:08
good, but it's actually over here, guys. Yeah.
51:11
Hey, look over here. And it's interesting because
51:17
some of these seem so far. Right. But yet if
51:20
we if I had written down more. We could see how
51:24
close some of these are. So this is a Norse one.
51:28
So Ymir is slain. He's a giant, by the way. And
51:31
his body is made from, or everything is made
51:33
from his body. So there's this giant, Ymir, and
51:37
he's killed. And then they're like, yeah, let's
51:38
just make everything out of him. The crazy thing
51:41
about that is like, what's their origin then?
51:44
Right. But I don't think they cared about that.
51:47
They didn't for them care about whatever Yeah,
51:50
we care about that. Yeah, and then Odin creates
51:53
humans from two trees That's wild like kind of
51:57
initial idea. Yeah, especially look at the idea
52:00
of two trees Yeah, we have a tale of two trees
52:04
ourselves The tale of two trees of two trees.
52:08
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I guess tree of life and the
52:11
knowledge of good and evil. Yeah I don't know.
52:14
I just found that interesting. So here's a Hindu
52:17
one. I often forget that there's two trees. Oh,
52:21
yeah. Like in the beginning, there were two trees.
52:26
Further into the beginning. That's actually a
52:29
good point. Yeah. So here's a Hindu one. The
52:33
universe emerges from Brahman. Two versions,
52:37
one Purusha is sacrificed and his body forms
52:40
the world. Two. Brahma creates the world from
52:44
a lotus flower. So there's like two versions
52:46
of what might have happened. Yeah. And they're
52:49
both kind of interesting. Well, all the creation
52:53
myths so far don't start from a Big Bang. Right.
52:59
You know what I mean? Which I have a lot to say
53:01
about that, even. OK. Which we kind of touched
53:04
on, but I'll save it for right now. OK. I'll
53:06
save it for right now. OK, so here's a Chinese
53:10
one. From that was gonna be the Trump voice So
53:22
the universe starts with a chaotic egg containing
53:27
pangu pangu breaks the egg forming yin and yang
53:32
Nua forms humans from clay Okay, so again, it's
53:38
like There's some very interesting details and
53:40
some very interesting differences. Just sounds
53:43
like a bad breakfast. This chaotic egg. Who gave
53:48
me chaotic eggs? And then here's the Egyptian
53:52
one. It's hard to read these with a straight
54:09
face none created shoe To be honest with you,
54:18
it's not even making fun of them. It's like what's
54:21
funny to me is how dumb English is And and our
54:29
our area our traditional arrogance is to be like
54:32
all these crazy names and all this Wow What is
54:36
it? It's like no like look what English does
54:38
to language. It makes it so stupid That's why
54:42
we think these guys don't know anything. I know
54:44
you can't pronounce their words. I know So here's
54:47
a Mayan one and it's like well don't say it like
54:49
that like that's not how that's not that name
54:53
Like the pronunciation is part of the name. Yeah,
54:55
like I don't know it though. Yeah So here's here's
54:59
a Mayan one the gods The gods heart of sky and
55:03
heart of earth create the world humans are first
55:06
made from mud the wood, but it fails Oops, finally
55:11
with corn which becomes sacred Makes sense. I
55:16
knew you liked that one. Yeah, yeah, makes sense.
55:18
And then here's the Aztecs. Four failed creations,
55:22
each ruled by a different son. The fifth son
55:25
is created when, oh man, Nana Hudson sacrifices
55:30
himself. Humans made from bones of past worlds
55:34
and blood of gods. Humans made from past worlds
55:39
and blood of gods. From the bones of past worlds.
55:41
That's wild. So there's quite a This one, the
55:45
Aztecs, I think are very interesting in the new
55:47
detail they add. And it's that strange idea,
55:51
which is 100 % a lot of other episodes, which
55:55
is like, okay, was there, what happened before
56:00
Genesis 1 .1? Or did anything happen? And that's
56:05
part of the question. And I think it's a very
56:08
interesting conversation to have. I find it specifically
56:12
interesting because the Aztecs kind of touch
56:14
on that. Yeah. It's like, it's this weird detail
56:17
that they add in there. It's like, where did
56:18
you even get that from? This is like the fifth
56:21
time the creation has been done. Yeah. Well,
56:24
and the Mayans and the Aztecs come later. Yeah.
56:28
But they have a lot of interesting details, both
56:31
of them. Absolutely. In their myths and traditions.
56:35
The corn one really stands out. The corn one's
56:37
awesome. But they also talk about like mud and
56:39
clay made of earth. And we see that from a few
56:42
places where there's this idea that humans were
56:44
made from the blood of gods or made out of clay.
56:48
Yeah, or tree. Yeah, or tree. So like organic
56:50
material. Yeah. Or earth -grown organic material.
56:54
Yeah. Which is essentially what man is made from.
56:58
Which is fascinating. Yeah. And I think that's
57:00
the one thing that's interesting is humans are
57:02
never just kind of there. Right. But they were
57:05
created from a god. Yeah. Or some kind of supernatural
57:08
being. but not necessarily by a god. Correct.
57:12
Yeah. And what's also interesting about it is
57:15
that a lot of these stories, the god creates
57:20
the universe by sacrificing himself or a part
57:23
of himself. Yeah. Or it's made from the sacrifice
57:27
of something else. Right. And it's like, I think
57:30
that's also very interesting. It is. Because
57:32
it's like, oh, so they have to create from something,
57:34
which is usually themselves. Right. Yeah. So
57:37
then the question is, is like, Well, what's the
57:39
origin of the origin story? Yeah, yeah. Because
57:43
it's it's that idea is like, well, when we say
57:47
what's the beginning of all things? Yeah. They
57:51
weren't necessarily asking that. They were asking,
57:53
what's the beginning of us? Which I don't know
57:56
if they're more narcissistic or we are. Like,
58:01
in some ways, they weren't like, hey, God, what
58:04
is the beginning of you? They were saying, what's
58:07
the beginning of us? And I think it kind of explores,
58:10
or kind of exposes their minds and how they thought,
58:13
which for them, it's like, oh, like a God just
58:15
being there is not a big deal. Yeah. It reminds
58:19
me of, I think it was actually Wes Huff that
58:22
talked about this on an interview I saw with
58:24
him, where he talked about the resurrection of
58:27
Christ, where for a lot of the people at that
58:30
time, it was not weird that he resurrected. It
58:33
was weird that you would worship a crucified
58:35
God Yeah, it's like they weren't caught off guard
58:38
by the resurrection part at all, right? They're
58:41
just like yeah, that's fine. But like he was
58:43
crucified. Why would you want to worship him?
58:44
Yes graced Yeah, and it's like I think that's
58:48
fascinating with the differences in our mentality
58:50
sure And so I think we see that even here because
58:54
one of the biggest things which I think shows
58:58
very very Loudly in all these myths. Yeah, is
59:03
that okay? So what was there before everything
59:06
kind of happened sure it was this primordial
59:08
watery chaos And it's like that's almost a universal
59:12
element every single one of these myths Yeah,
59:15
but it doesn't sound like it's all creation right.
59:18
It sounds like it's just there was Something
59:24
there was but it's usually going on. It's like
59:27
it's chaos though, right? And so their form of
59:31
making order is definitely different than how
59:33
the Hebrew myth tells it. Right. But it's like
59:37
there is still a chaos and order element to it.
59:40
We see it in the Chinese one, creating yin and
59:42
yang. Right. It's like, well, that's chaos and
59:44
order. That's balance. The balance, yeah. Yeah.
59:46
Except in the Hebrew tradition, in the Christian
59:51
tradition, it's not a balancing chaos and order.
59:55
Right. So it's not equal parts chaos, equal parts
59:58
order. It's elimination of chaos. So as order
1:00:03
is created, chaos goes away. As light comes,
1:00:06
there's no more darkness. Whereas all of the
1:00:09
other myths are this balance between the two.
1:00:14
That's where it's tough to be like, well, why
1:00:19
are there bad things or why is there evil stuff?
1:00:22
It's like, well, you wouldn't know how... good
1:00:24
good things were unless you had evil or you had
1:00:27
bad things yeah and you're like well okay but
1:00:30
that's actually not part of the christian faith
1:00:32
part of the christian faith is like right now
1:00:37
the earth is chaos yeah and the goal is that
1:00:44
there's order not that there's a balance between
1:00:48
chaos and order But instead, there's a full elimination
1:00:51
of chaos. Yeah. Watch out, guys. Trying to create
1:00:56
order here. But doesn't it make sense, though,
1:00:59
that we would see descending in from a lot of
1:01:02
these different civilizations? And I also made
1:01:05
sure I wanted to add in these ones that are from
1:01:08
very diverse parts of the world. Yeah. Because
1:01:10
for me, it shows, OK, no matter what part of
1:01:13
the earth you were on, everyone had a story to
1:01:17
tell about creation. True. And there's so many
1:01:20
elements to it that are exactly the same. Or
1:01:23
at least are so closely tied to one another that
1:01:26
it's the same story. And I was like, I think
1:01:29
that is fascinating in and of itself. But then
1:01:32
we see the influence and it's like looking at
1:01:34
that balance between chaos and order. It's like
1:01:37
wouldn't we see that from these wicked beings
1:01:40
trying to gain authority for themselves? Trying
1:01:42
to gain... Worship and power for themselves sure
1:01:46
where it's like, yeah, they're creating chaos
1:01:47
right and they have to explain it Yeah, and in
1:01:51
some ways it was it was created for them, right?
1:01:55
Mm -hmm. It was for them to be able to kind of
1:01:57
play with Yeah, yeah, but also the thing that
1:02:02
this sticks out to me too about mine and Aztec
1:02:04
and that's like again They kind of come later
1:02:07
the corn No, no, it seems like Let me put it
1:02:12
this way. It seems like a lot of the pagan myths,
1:02:18
because myth is not the, like, for the Christian,
1:02:23
myth is not the bad word. The bad word is pagan.
1:02:26
Yeah. Right? Yeah. So myth is not a bad word.
1:02:29
It's a descriptor of historical things that happened
1:02:35
that have supernatural events or characters in
1:02:41
it. And things like Leviathan, things that are
1:02:45
literally in the Bible, even all the way into
1:02:48
the English translation, even though we have
1:02:52
the deep in Genesis 1, we still have Leviathan
1:02:55
in Psalm 74. So that's a real quick note too.
1:03:01
If you're having a hard time not seeing all of
1:03:06
the supernatural things that are happening in
1:03:09
the specifically Old Testament, just for starters,
1:03:13
because that's where it all started. One of the
1:03:18
best places to go is the Psalms. And don't read
1:03:21
the Psalms as like feel good rhythmic phrases
1:03:30
that can go on your wall, over your desk. It's
1:03:34
like read it as, this is a creative retelling
1:03:43
of the true myth, the true story of what's happening.
1:03:49
And so it gives insight, the Psalms, which is
1:03:52
honestly wild, because there's a lot of things
1:03:55
in the Psalms, like for years I would read the
1:03:58
Psalms and be like, what in the world is this
1:04:00
even talking about? Turns out, It's talking about
1:04:03
everything that came before it. Yeah, it's talking
1:04:05
about a lot. It's talking about stuff and it's
1:04:07
giving context and clarity to stuff that came
1:04:10
before it that in our English translation doesn't
1:04:13
necessarily want to give us that supernatural
1:04:16
of a translation. Yeah. But they left it all
1:04:19
in the Psalms. And in some places in the Psalms
1:04:23
it was watered down a little bit too. But that
1:04:26
type of thing. I think it's important, in the
1:04:28
Psalms is great but also like any a lot of Old
1:04:32
Testaments. There's some weird stuff in there.
1:04:35
And I think the Psalms are really interesting
1:04:37
because it's easier for us to read them outside
1:04:40
of how we've been told to read them. That's true.
1:04:42
Because that's one of my biggest phrases that
1:04:44
I say all the time. It's like, let's read the
1:04:46
Bible not the way I was told to read it, but
1:04:48
let's read it how it actually reads. Yeah. because
1:04:52
there's going to be times and it happens it happened
1:04:53
to me all the time and I didn't really realize
1:04:55
it until I realized it yeah and it's like oh
1:04:58
yeah I've read all of this stuff but I read past
1:05:01
it because it didn't make sense right I just
1:05:03
kind of skipped over it yeah but then it's like
1:05:05
okay so one of the things that can be helpful
1:05:07
and I think it's even good we look at well what
1:05:09
did God do when he created the universe when
1:05:12
he created everything yeah we spoke it it's the
1:05:15
spoken word so it's like Let's speak it when
1:05:18
we read it, too. And that's something I think
1:05:21
is a fun practice to get into. If you have the
1:05:24
opportunity, it's like, well, when you sit down
1:05:26
to read the Bible, let's read it out loud. Just
1:05:30
to yourself. Just hear yourself speaking these
1:05:32
words, and then catch those times where you're
1:05:34
like, that doesn't make any sense. What is that?
1:05:36
And then underline it and go figure it out. Just
1:05:40
be like, what is that? Let me just look that
1:05:42
up. Because I think that's such a cool way to
1:05:44
kind of expose a lot of these elements that are
1:05:47
in there that we don't read because it's not
1:05:49
in our worldview to read them. Yeah. Yeah, in
1:05:52
a lot of ways, like it's not anything to be scared
1:05:55
about. It's not anything to be like, well, that
1:05:57
makes that that type of language or understanding
1:06:01
that in some ways makes the the Bible feel less
1:06:05
true. Yeah. And that that's probably the hardest
1:06:08
hurdle for a lot of people is like, if I really
1:06:10
read into if I really read and not read into
1:06:13
it, but if I really read it and stop and think
1:06:17
about and contemplate what it's actually saying
1:06:20
and not just move past it to the points that
1:06:22
are potentially practical use for you, because
1:06:26
if you do that, you'll most likely be out of
1:06:29
context if you skip over all the stuff that came
1:06:31
before it. Yeah, you're gonna miss a ton. Yeah,
1:06:34
but in that way, it's okay that on the other
1:06:39
side of... modernity on the other side of industrial
1:06:43
revolution on the other side of enlightenment
1:06:46
you have We have to still read the Bible as it's
1:06:51
laid out and as it's written. I like that Yeah,
1:06:55
because if we don't then all we're doing is trying
1:06:57
to make the Bible Be be simple for us. We're
1:07:03
just trying to force fit our own ideas into what
1:07:05
it says Yeah, which will break down. Yes, it
1:07:08
will. Yeah Essentially, what happens is you are
1:07:12
developing your own Jesus to worship. Yeah. Which
1:07:16
in and of itself is an idol. And that's terrifying.
1:07:20
That's scary. It's more scary than what's actually
1:07:25
in the Bible. That's so true. Even though what's
1:07:28
in the Bible is pretty scary. Yeah, it can be.
1:07:31
Speaking of which, flood myths. Well, do we want
1:07:34
to get there? Are we I've got I've got three
1:07:37
more sections Well, so I'll set it up with this
1:07:41
how we do on time actually we might need three
1:07:43
more episodes I'm down with it. These are so
1:07:46
fun. I think we might need that cuz yeah, I think
1:07:48
we're there's yeah We're going in well, then
1:07:51
I'll I'll set it up with this and I'll say this
1:07:55
to kind of close that out is Yeah, I think this
1:08:01
episode is creation myth yeah, okay, we'll stay
1:08:03
there which is I mean that's a lot It is. And
1:08:05
I went through them pretty quickly, too. Yeah.
1:08:09
But I think what's important with this is this
1:08:12
is this weird mix where, one, it's like, OK,
1:08:15
so as Christians, we say we believe the Bible,
1:08:18
which means that we don't question what it says.
1:08:22
Right. But now it's like, OK, which we just ask
1:08:24
is like, well, what is it saying? Right. That's
1:08:27
the question. But regardless of that, it's like,
1:08:28
let's just say let's just take Genesis, the creation
1:08:31
account. We're like, that's gospel truth. That's
1:08:35
it, that's how it happened, word for word, line
1:08:37
for line. It was like, perfect, let's take it.
1:08:41
Now, let's look at these other myths, which we
1:08:44
just outlined a lot of them. And there's plenty
1:08:47
more that I didn't even write down too, from
1:08:50
other civilizations. And specific tribes as well
1:08:54
that have their own version of it. And so it's
1:08:57
like, how do they have their own story, but it
1:09:01
kind of aligns in some ways, with what the Bible's
1:09:04
saying. And so we'd be like, oh, well, they just
1:09:07
copied. And it's like, or some people say the
1:09:09
Bible copied. Right. And it's like, OK, well,
1:09:13
this is where it gets kind of confusing. Well,
1:09:14
and timeline wise. And that's where I'm getting
1:09:17
it. Both could be. That's where it gets confusing.
1:09:19
Sure. Because a lot of these were written down
1:09:23
before the Bible was written down. Right. But
1:09:26
does that mean that the Bible's version wasn't
1:09:29
older? Right. It just means it was written down
1:09:31
later. Sure. Yeah. And that's the weird thing
1:09:33
with language. It's like, what's the first language?
1:09:35
Well, we don't actually know. Yeah. Because it
1:09:37
wasn't written down. Yeah. As far as we know.
1:09:40
Yeah. We don't know how many different dialects
1:09:43
and languages or words were never written down
1:09:46
and were lost to time. Yeah. We don't know what
1:09:48
we don't know. Exactly. Yeah. We don't know.
1:09:51
And so I think what we can do right now is and
1:09:55
we do have the gift as Christians the gift of
1:09:57
faith to look into these right things with that
1:09:59
but it's like okay let's look at what's here
1:10:01
and let's piece it together that's that's what
1:10:03
i'm excited about when i look through it's like
1:10:05
well what does it say it's like well almost universally
1:10:08
everyone's saying it comes from some kind of
1:10:10
chaos in the beginning sure typically represented
1:10:12
by some kind of waters yeah well what does the
1:10:15
bible say The same thing. It says that there
1:10:18
were these watery chaos things. And then in these
1:10:22
other myths, it says, but then someone came in
1:10:24
and tried to organize it. Right. Well, what does
1:10:26
the Bible say? It says God came in and he did
1:10:28
organize it. Yeah. He did create order. It was
1:10:31
successful. Yeah. Yeah. And then this is where
1:10:33
we get into the weird parts, which we talked
1:10:35
about, where they said, oh, and then this person
1:10:38
created humans and he mixed in divine blood or
1:10:41
they were created from a tree or from clay or
1:10:44
whatever. And it's like, okay, well that's interesting
1:10:48
because that's not what the Bible says. The Bible
1:10:50
paints a very different picture and it paints
1:10:52
it that way. Not in Genesis 1 it doesn't say
1:10:53
that. Well, what do you mean? It doesn't say
1:10:57
that there was divine blood mixed in. Oh, I'm
1:10:59
saying as far as creation of humans. Correct.
1:11:02
Because that's where I'm getting at right now.
1:11:03
Okay. Is because when we talk about that, that's
1:11:05
when it becomes very problematic. Sure. With
1:11:07
bloodlines and the purity of the humanity of
1:11:11
Jesus. Yeah. And that's where scripture is very
1:11:14
clear and intentionally very clear that no, there
1:11:18
is no divine, unhuman blood poured into this.
1:11:22
There is the breath of God that was poured into
1:11:25
us. We're covered by the blood of Jesus, but
1:11:28
we're not infused with the blood of Jesus. Those
1:11:32
are very different things and they're very different
1:11:34
intentionally. So when we look at these other
1:11:36
myths, where do they break down specifically?
1:11:39
I think that's where they break down specifically.
1:11:41
Yeah, and the Bible tells us, not in Genesis
1:11:44
1, but in Genesis 6, where a lot of that might
1:11:48
come from. Right. Because if these other myths
1:11:51
of creation are the insertion of bloodline or
1:11:55
blood into humans in the creation of humans,
1:12:00
well, that does happen in Genesis 6. Right. And
1:12:03
so that's kind of where that branches off. And
1:12:05
that's what I was going to say about specifically
1:12:08
that the Mayan stuff and the Aztec stuff kind
1:12:11
of pops out a little bit more. And some of it
1:12:14
is like, and it's true in the Mesopotamian space
1:12:16
as well, but it's one of those things where what
1:12:19
pops out to me a lot is it feels like the Genesis
1:12:24
account is, hey, this is what's happening. And
1:12:29
their accounts feel like, This is the information
1:12:33
given to you. So Somebody came and gave us this
1:12:37
information. Yeah, like in other words to clarify
1:12:42
it feels like the pagan myths were given to them
1:12:50
by Who who wanted to shape their world? Yeah,
1:12:57
and it wasn't something that they contemplated
1:13:00
and developed And the same is true of the Hebrew.
1:13:05
But it's like God Yahweh is not just saying,
1:13:15
hey, it's me, not Marduk, but is also clashing
1:13:22
with Marduk and saying, hey, this guy's wrong.
1:13:27
Does exist. but is wrong well and that's the
1:13:30
important thing we look at it's like okay which
1:13:32
human was there in day one of creation right
1:13:34
no human right and so how do we know what how
1:13:39
it happened yeah well because we were told by
1:13:42
someone or something right and so i think there's
1:13:45
a case being made not today unfortunately but
1:13:49
it's like when we look at and we actually will
1:13:50
get there eventually with these myths yeah as
1:13:53
far as the knowledge bringers, the ones that
1:13:55
bring knowledge to humans. And that's a universal
1:13:59
myth as well. And it's like, well, here are all
1:14:03
these lies that are getting spread, this misinformation
1:14:06
about this is what happened. And then Yahweh,
1:14:11
this was bouncing in my head apparently, just
1:14:15
Trump jokes. And then we have Yahweh, he's like,
1:14:19
let me set the record straight. Right. This is
1:14:22
what happens. Yeah. And that's like, because
1:14:26
I was trying to like make it as simple and precise
1:14:29
and that was it. Yeah. So from what I said into
1:14:33
what you said back into maybe me reorganizing
1:14:36
my brain one more time is like it's almost like
1:14:42
by the time you get to Genesis six and the sons
1:14:45
of God corrupting the daughters of man. and you
1:14:50
have this translation of information and bloodline
1:14:55
into the human space, which is a payoff episode
1:15:01
later on that we're not quite at, but we keep
1:15:04
talking about different elements of it, is God
1:15:09
coming and saying, like, hey, what these guys
1:15:12
told you, let me back up and tell you, like,
1:15:16
that's not the start, this is the start. They're
1:15:19
telling you that this started in a different
1:15:21
way It didn't start in a different way just directed
1:15:26
at the wrong person right and maybe that's maybe
1:15:30
that's the simplest way to put it is all of all
1:15:33
of these myths point to different people and
1:15:37
Only one of them points to the right one. Yeah,
1:15:40
so they're all yeah, very similar. They're all
1:15:44
almost the same thing and Even the Bible references
1:15:49
the other. Which would be interesting to look
1:15:54
at the other myths and see how much they reference
1:15:56
other myths. That's kind of interesting. Because
1:15:59
it's really cool that the Hebrew Bible references
1:16:05
other myths and corrects them. It pulls it back
1:16:09
in and says, no, no, no, this. Yeah, this is
1:16:11
what you were told. This is actually what it
1:16:13
is. I'm telling you the real the real truth.
1:16:17
These are all other gods that have told you things.
1:16:20
And these other gods have told you things the
1:16:23
way that they want you to understand it and believe
1:16:25
it. But they are coming as, they came to you
1:16:30
as imitations of the one true God. They came
1:16:34
to you, what is it? They came to you masquerading
1:16:37
as an angel of light. And as they came to you,
1:16:41
they told you kind of the truth. But they directed
1:16:46
it towards the wrong person who themselves who
1:16:49
needs who deserves the glory for it Yeah, right.
1:16:53
Yeah, and that's let me follow this path real
1:16:56
quick. This is Paul thoughts. This is not This
1:17:00
is our conspiracy corner. Oh, this is our conspiracy.
1:17:03
It's not really conspiracy. We did that once
1:17:04
We just left it behind because we got into this.
1:17:07
That's a good point Which is wilder than Conspiracy
1:17:10
Corner Like the reality of history but it's like
1:17:14
the true reality of history, but I love it But
1:17:18
it's like let's like look at the the serpent
1:17:20
in the garden. Yeah, it's like well, what did
1:17:22
what was his deception to Eve? Was it a total
1:17:26
lie? No, not at all. It wasn't it was actually
1:17:29
there was truth in it. Yeah, and why is that
1:17:32
important? Well because Eve knows enough She
1:17:35
doesn't I mean obviously she didn't hear everything
1:17:37
right Adam probably added his own flair to it
1:17:40
based on her answer to the question Yeah, that's
1:17:43
something but it's like okay. Well What like
1:17:47
why did he have to mix in truth with it? Because
1:17:50
she already knew some of the truth, right? and
1:17:52
so he has to do that so he can then twist it
1:17:54
and shape it to what he wants right and so Why
1:17:58
why are all these creation myths? Why do they
1:18:01
share the same through line? And I think because
1:18:04
I think because all these people have a level
1:18:07
of understanding of what happened. Right. And
1:18:10
why would they have that? Well, because God walked
1:18:12
with Adam in the garden. Yeah. He would have
1:18:15
heard the story from Yahweh. Yeah. And as that
1:18:18
story gets passed down and passed through, people
1:18:22
are like, OK, what happened again? Like, I kind
1:18:24
of know. Yeah. And then but I don't fully remember
1:18:27
the whole story. And then you have these other
1:18:29
beings coming in and saying like, hey, check
1:18:31
this out. To be completely honest, I don't think
1:18:34
I've actually considered the fact that, and again,
1:18:39
that's what... what we were talking about earlier
1:18:40
is like creating different cathedrals or spaces
1:18:43
like going from book to book or story to story
1:18:47
and creating whole different worlds in your mind
1:18:50
of what that is because we do that with like
1:18:52
fiction books or a tv show you live in the world
1:18:56
of this tv show and their world building is what
1:19:00
you call it and so like you live in that but
1:19:02
the problem is is the bible the the Bible is
1:19:08
one world to live within. But it's like these
1:19:10
snapshots of these scenes. Yeah, and we can't
1:19:12
separate them. And it's like, what's the bridge
1:19:13
between them? Yeah, and I think sometimes we
1:19:15
forget that Adam left the garden. Yes. So, Adam
1:19:21
in the garden... Is not really discharged. Yeah,
1:19:23
good point. Adam in the garden is not different
1:19:26
than Adam outside the garden. Yeah, he still
1:19:29
knows and did what he did. Yeah, he just doesn't
1:19:31
have access anymore, right? So like his security
1:19:35
code got turned off now the interesting question
1:19:39
that we would never know the answer to is Does
1:19:42
his knowledge change? So like does he get? Men
1:19:46
in black Like memory wipe, you know what I mean?
1:19:50
Yeah, I don't think so Well, there's no indication
1:19:53
of that. There's no indication either way. So
1:19:55
then if you look at that, then through the line
1:19:58
of Seth, at some point, like, I mean, seventh
1:20:01
from Adam, Enoch, like, you have these lines
1:20:07
where, like, of course they're going to be telling
1:20:09
stories and they don't have TV. Well, I think
1:20:12
that's why Enoch is such a significant figure
1:20:17
in that story because of his writings. It's kind
1:20:21
of like what he talks about is in a way, it's
1:20:25
like, okay, everyone has been given this forbidden
1:20:27
knowledge, as he calls it, from these other divine
1:20:31
beings that are coming here to corrupt everybody.
1:20:34
And he's been given his information from Yahweh,
1:20:37
from these angels, these messengers of Yahweh,
1:20:40
and they say, no, no, no, this is what you need
1:20:43
to know, this is how it works, this is truth.
1:20:46
And so that's why his... stuff is so significant
1:20:50
because it's kind of that correction. There's
1:20:53
all this mixed up lies and corruption out here
1:20:56
that people are believing because what else do
1:20:58
they have to believe? Which is consistent with
1:21:00
the Bible. And then Enoch hears from the angels
1:21:02
and he goes, okay, now I have the truth. This
1:21:05
is it. Yeah. Yeah. Which is consistent with how
1:21:09
the Bible is laid out. It's like they're telling
1:21:11
you all this stuff. It's not Marduk. It's this.
1:21:16
It's Yahweh. It's pulling all of it back in.
1:21:19
So yeah, it's weird how even the Genesis account
1:21:24
is answering the true myth in the corruption
1:21:29
of the chaos of all the other myths going on
1:21:32
in order for there to be... And that's why it's
1:21:36
interesting that there's... one true myth, and
1:21:40
then there's so many other ones. The offshoots.
1:21:44
Yeah. And it's like, it's really funny how we
1:21:46
go, all right, there's one, and then there's
1:21:49
this other category that holds all the other
1:21:51
ones. Yeah. And it's like, these are all just
1:21:53
imitations over here. But that's not just us
1:21:56
doing it. Right. Like that's historically what's
1:21:58
happened. Yeah. Those things have been separated.
1:22:02
I mean, and you know, I think that's. What's
1:22:04
interesting about that though is like even though
1:22:06
they have been separated, they still tell the
1:22:08
same story. You're right. And I think that's
1:22:10
what's fascinating is like if myth was just us
1:22:13
making up stuff. Right. Of these ancients making
1:22:16
stuff up, we wouldn't expect the same story.
1:22:19
Yeah, exactly. You'd expect completely different
1:22:21
stories. Yeah. But they're not completely different.
1:22:24
Yeah. Yeah. And you get all these different stories
1:22:27
in different languages. Yeah. And that's interesting
1:22:31
because of a bunch of other myths. That we'll
1:22:35
get into on the next episode next episode Where
1:22:41
language becomes important? I wasn't even there
1:22:44
yet. It's gonna get bring a rain jacket Bring
1:22:48
your rain jacket Next time on martyrs row grab
1:22:54
your rain jacket. We'll see you then three two
1:22:58
one