Latest / World Ablaze with George Fontes / 61 - Tahmina Watson - Immigration Lawyer and Published Author

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61 - Tahmina Watson - Immigration Lawyer and Published Author · World Ablaze with George Fontes

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You are listening to a Fonts Media Network production.
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Welcome to episode 61 of World of Blaze.
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On this episode, I have Tamina Watson.
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Tamina Watson is the founder of Watson Immigration Law,
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where she has an expertise in investor, business, and family-based immigration.
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She is a published author of multiple books and a strong advocate for immigration reform.
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We spent some time discussing the various work visas, how they relate to a person's immigration status,
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as well as touched on some other immigration issues that relate to the United States
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and how that may affect immigrants around the world.
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I hope you find this conversation informative,
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and I hope that it opens the door for having further conversations with you,
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your friends, and your family about this sensitive issue.
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Well, firstly, I thank you for being here or taking the time to be here.
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I know that you're busy.
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I was reading up a little bit on you, and you're a published author.
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I have another book coming out, which is an achievement.
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I mean, just doing one is an achievement, but I mean, which number book is this?
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it was like number uh let's see um six six or seven yeah i mean yeah i i you know i love saying
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i've lost count i went to 92 like deepak chopra or something how did get to 90 something what are
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they doing that i don't know how to do so um yeah i'm working on it but it's interesting every book
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has journey and life of its own. And this is at the early stages of its life.
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Yeah, that's crazy. That's something I've never done, never achieved. And so hats off to you for
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that. And you specialize in immigration law, correct? Or did you practice any other types
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of law before then? I practice immigration, US immigration law now for my entire career in the
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United States. But when I lived in London, I was born and raised in London, and I was a lawyer there
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In my early days, I did criminal defense law, some amounts of civil law practice.
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Okay.
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So one of the bigger reasons I reached out to you is because, one, you're an authority on this.
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Two, you are published, and you do have a law firm that specializes in this, namely immigration and immigration law.
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And with everything going on, I wanted a perspective from someone who's actually in it, who can actually interpret law and can explain what's really going on and what rights there are for those that are considered illegal or undocumented that are coming into our country.
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And from what I understand, there's always like, there's a difference versus when they're on one side of the border and when they cross over.
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And of course, there's the other, the other situation where airports are kind of like Switzerland or neutral.
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They don't really have any borders.
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Like they're not a country, right.
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Until they actually cross over into the destination they're going to.
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So there, there's a lot of that.
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And I also want to get your opinion on how things are being handled by the administration.
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And we don't have to get too political per se, but I do want to get some better explanation of the laws, the rights.
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and is the administration going about this the correct way?
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Because I have my opinions.
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I know other people have their opinions.
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Again, I talk to people in the intelligence community.
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I have other journalists I speak with.
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And not a lawyer, though, that specializes in this particular subject matter.
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So with that being said, I thought, hey, Tamina, maybe you can help us with this.
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Maybe you can explain a little bit.
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I would be honored.
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My question to you is, who is your primary audience?
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um well our audience is pretty much i don't know everyone whoever's willing to listen to be quite
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honest uh we have a worldwide audience uh multiple countries hundreds of thousands of downloads so
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i'm not really sure exactly who everyone is but what a great problem to have yeah well
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i don't know about that i just i just try to keep things going and make sure everybody is uh
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satisfied whoever does like my particular brand anyway and i think everybody who is listening to
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this episode now, which is great. But, you know, regardless, again, I'll be honest, this show can
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get political, but there's times where it's not. It's just, hey, let's talk about the facts. Let's
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talk about what's going on. Let's talk about what's happening from a factual standpoint,
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from the standpoint backed by data. And that's one thing that I'm hoping that you can do for us.
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You know, and one of the things that were, that was in, well, contested for a while,
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or people didn't understand, and even I'm still foggy on,
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was the right to work, as in the H1, H2A visas or H2B visas.
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Can you explain how that works and how that relates to someone
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who has one of those visas and works in the United States?
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Sure.
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So thank you so much again, George, for having me
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and asking some of these brilliant questions
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because when people hear sound bites in the news,
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it gets even more confusing because one side,
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It says one thing and another says another.
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And then, you know, the listener or the layperson doesn't know really where anything stands.
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So just back to basics for a moment.
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The United States immigration system was created in 1990 and the current system that we work with.
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And it created a family-based system, an employment-based system.
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In the employment-based system, we have temporary work visas and we have green card options.
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But the temporary work visas or the temporary visa programs are in the employment-based system.
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There's no temporary visa in the family-based system.
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The family-based system is primarily to get a green card.
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You with me, Sufa?
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Yeah, with you.
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And so in the employment-based temporary visa categories, there are various different types of visa categories which are labeled as a letter and then a number.
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and so H1B, H2B, H2A, O1A, O1B
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and so there are these letters and numbers
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and then letters again
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that signify specific categories of visas
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and when it comes to these visas
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they're really defined by the type of work
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somebody's going to be doing
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so if you're a priest coming here
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to be a priest at a church
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you would get a religious visa, R1. If you are, quote unquote, a genius, one of the top people in
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your profession would be getting an O visa. And that was a matter of controversy during the first
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time President Trump was in office because the first lady had that visa. So the H-1B visa is a
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work visa as well. And the basic premise of the H-1B visa is that you must have a bachelor's
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degree in a specific subject matter that gives you the academic training and theoretical training
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to do a particular job that requires that training. So even though I'm a lawyer,
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I would not be eligible for a job in the computer industry because my degree is not in computer
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science okay so the specific degree has to match the specific job any work visa has three primary
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requirements to show number one that there is an employer number two there's a job and number three
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there's an employee that you're going to sponsor, the employer is going to sponsor. Now, the employer
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has to make specific promises. Number one, that they are going to pay the prevailing wage for that
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type of job in that type of area. So, an entry-level doctor in Kansas City may get, let's call it $50,000
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a year, but the entry-level doctor in New York might be getting $70,000 a year. So the prevailing
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wage is determined by the Department of Labor and they decide what the salary will be and the
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employer has to essentially promise that they will pay that salary. So that's the number one promise
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and number two promise is that they have the finances to pay that salary for a job that
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actually truly exists okay and so when we hear debates in the news often the debate is about
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bringing in cheap labor particularly on the h1b front you might remember around christmas 2024
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was major news by controversial discussions where elon musk supports the h1b
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and Steve Bannon does not support the H-1B.
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And then President Trump said, yes, he supports the H-1B.
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And so there's controversy among leadership about the benefits of an H-1B.
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But what are the facts?
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The facts are that employers in the United States,
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such as Microsoft, Amazon, Boeing, you name the big corporation,
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they use H-1B visas because they generally cannot find enough talent to take those jobs.
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Why is that? It's because our education system is not producing sufficient talented minds or people
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for our workforce. Now, the question that comes up from that is, well, they're cheap labor,
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you're paying them less. And the answer is no. If anything, it costs more to hire somebody on an H-1B.
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And the reason is not only are they the employer making the promise as per the Department of
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Labor's guidance, but they also have to be competitive because the people that they are
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trying to recruit are being courted by multiple companies. And so they have to make sure that
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the employer's offer is attractive enough for somebody to say, yes, I would like to join you.
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So they are often being competitive in the market. But secondly, the employer has to then
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pay for legal fees, HR fees, compliance fees, so forth. And so for anybody listening,
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is an important visa in our immigration system because often people behind the scenes that are
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managing important parts of our lives and you just need to look at your telephone your cell phone
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the hardware the network the software often are being managed by high-skilled immigrants who might
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be working at some of these telephone companies or the wireless companies or the you know the
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technology companies, all the apps that you have on your phone by a lot of high-skilled immigrants.
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Okay. So that was great on clarifying the H1B. I also have further questions as to differences
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between classification H1 versus H2, but I want to back up a bit because you're right. A lot of
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people were thinking this is just cheap labor. And I want to say something about that. And I'm
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kind of, and I'm not saying I'm correct in this, but I'm kind of thinking where this argument
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possibly may have come from. And I know this from the construction industry and various other
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businesses that I've owned also throughout the years. And I will say that sometimes there's a
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difference between prevailing wage and the market value of a job in a certain area. So let's say
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a construction worker, for example, if you're a framer, prevailing wage, I'm just throwing this
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South, or it could be $25 an hour.
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But due to the market demand and what usually pays an experienced framer in that particular
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area, they're actually getting paid, let's say, upwards of $45 an hour, especially if
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they're in the union.
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So I'm wondering if that may have contributed to the misunderstanding of, as you said, cheap
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labor.
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Could it have been a difference between what was considered market value for a job and
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what was considered a standard prevailing wage That a really really astute question And that could be a perception that a lot of people have But I come back to competitiveness of the limited amount of talent
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that there is in this country. And so when I know I live in Washington State, so it's very easy for
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I mean, we talk about Microsoft and Amazon.
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But when there is somebody
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that both these companies might want to hire
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and the startup, smaller companies,
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want to hire the same person,
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they have to be competitive with competitive market rates.
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Otherwise, they will not have that talented person join them.
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So while there is perception
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that actually is probably widespread,
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Ed, George, so great question. Thank you for asking that. The pool of people that these companies
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can draw from are still limited. And so you have to pay market value. And in addition to that,
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there are, you know, no secret, if you go look at any job ad for monster.com or indeed.com or
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wherever, salaries are posted.
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And these salaries, when somebody promises a salary,
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that is through a form on the Department of Labor's website.
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And the Department of Labor's website will have a lot of data
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that can be accessed by the public.
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And so it is, again, coming back to you, George, it's a good question.
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But the reality is these companies pay the market value.
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Right.
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And I was just asking the question because I'm wondering if that's where that perception came from.
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And they probably, because I've seen it myself, you know, and I'm not saying that applies to the situation, for example, when we're talking about engineers, but just wondering if the public may have, I don't know if someone out there probably came across that data and they thought, well, yeah, they're getting cheap labor.
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And of course, it has to be competitive, especially, you know, again, I have been an employer.
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And I do know that, listen, if you state a salary and publicly and it's publicly available,
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everybody has to be, you know, offered the same wage, at least the same starting wage,
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and then, you know, move up from there.
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So I understand that.
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I was just wondering if you thought that that issue that I brought up may have been part
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of that misperception is, I guess, how I should have worded it as to whether or not they're
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really paying for cheap labor.
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I don't believe that's the case.
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But I do want to ask this.
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Is there a myth?
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Okay, is this a myth?
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With an H-1 visa, for example,
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is there a contract between the employer and employee
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for a certain amount of time?
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Is that true?
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Sure, yes.
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That's actually part of the application process
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where you have an off letter or a contract
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that spells out the terms of the employment.
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H-1Bs can be part-time
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and the contract would specify that.
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But the actual application form would also specify
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if it's part-time or full-time.
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The boxes on the forms ask specifically full-time, part-time,
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wages, hourly, annual, monthly, whatever the way it is.
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And so that's a contract.
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And the employer actually has to contract with whatever else they're doing.
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There's a lot of compliance involved where if they are applying
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for an H-1B, the employer has to post a copy of the quote-unquote wage promise that we just talked
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about in an inconspicuous place in their office for 10 days so everybody can see it. So, if anybody
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is, you know, feeling like there's an issue, they can most definitely complain. But there is a
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process for this and it has to be open. And that posting is a very important part of it to make
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sure there's visibility and compliance.
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And then all of those forms get signed by the employer.
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I guess my question was more about the time.
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I guess I should have been more clear in my questioning.
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It was, okay, does the employer enter a contract with the person who is to be contracted under
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this H-1 visa as in response for them?
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So does that mean that they're committed to this company?
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like that person is also committed to this company
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and working for them for, let's say,
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two years, three years, four years, five years.
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Is that true of an H-1 as well?
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Very good question.
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So the employment contract would look exactly the same
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as it would for you and me if we were hired.
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Gotcha.
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So the employment contract wouldn't look necessarily different.
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It might have an additional couple of paragraphs
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saying subject to approval of your H-1B.
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but H-1Bs initially will be
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or any H-1B can be issued
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for up to three years.
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Okay.
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But total time
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that we can have on an H-1B
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is six years.
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So they have to first get into a lottery
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and the lottery period is opening up
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March 7th to 24th this year.
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And if somebody is selected in the lottery
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then they don't have to be in the lottery again.
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Once, you know,
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So employer A has gone through the lottery and sponsored them and they worked for company A,
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even if it's for one day.
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You know, we're looking at a lot of layoffs these days, which are, you know, bringing up
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different types of nuanced problems.
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But as long as they worked for company A, they can move to company B, C, D, E, F, G,
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as many times as they want without being in the lottery, but only up to six years in total.
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And there are people in the U.S. who have been on H-1Bs for much longer than six years,
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but only if some technical steps have been taken towards their green cards.
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So, okay, let's go over that then.
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So when their six years is up, for example,
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what's the process for them to be able to remain in the United States for a longer period and continue to work?
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Yeah, really, this is something that employers struggle with
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because planning has to happen way in advance of the six years.
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Okay.
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You don't have to necessarily test the market.
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You're making the wage promise and you're having certain compliance issues,
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but you're not testing the market because it's a temporary position.
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But if you are going to sponsor that person for a permanent position,
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You have to test the market to ensure that no American worker has been left out before you offer that job to a foreign worker.
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Now, to test the market, there are many steps that have to be taken.
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First, you have to ensure the Department of Labor believes that this is the right wage for the job.
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So you have to apply and Department of Labor might take 8, 9, 12 months.
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give permission on that wage. Then in your local area with the main newspaper of that area,
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including three other ways of advertising. So the government wants to see that you've made
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a bona fide effort, a real effort to advertise a position. And that has to be advertised for at
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least 30 days and then you have to wait 30 days to accept applications. Now, if somebody applies
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for the job who has the minimum experience required, the employer cannot move forward
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with that application unless he hires this person or they hire this person and continue with the
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other position. So, if you've tested the market and somebody exists, you can't go forward with
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that application.
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And so there are...
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You can't go forward
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with the H-1B application.
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Not the H-1B.
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It's called a permanent labor certification,
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a permanent reward application.
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Ah, got it.
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And so there are many steps
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that the employer has to take
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to test the market
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before they can make
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that permanent application.
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Okay, so they can't convert this
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into a permanent status of work
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unless they can prove that,
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yeah, we literally couldn't find
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any other candidate in the marketplace to fill the position.
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That's correct. That's correct.
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And when that application gets to,
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it has many steps,
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many different timelines,
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and many different points of potential failure.
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Okay, so how soon should an employee,
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not employee, I'm sorry, an employer, I mean,
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how soon should an employer be taking these necessary steps
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to make sure that they're doing the right thing
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before they get to the point of that person or that said employee, their H1 expiring?
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Really great question, George.
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A lot of employers will wait until the first three years have gone by.
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And then they'll start thinking about it.
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Because if the green card application, the permanent labor certification application,
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has not been pending for one year or more,
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they cannot extend the H-1B beyond the six years.
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So there's a lot of counting back and counting forwards
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to see when you do these steps.
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And because it's very complicated and not cheap,
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the process is expensive.
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Employers don't necessarily want to do this until they have to.
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But there are a lot of employers keenly start the process
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as soon as the H-1B application has been approved,
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because they know all of these steps will take time
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and often these timelines can't be controlled.
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So, for example, during the first Trump presidency,
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everything was backlogged significantly.
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And it took four years for the Biden administration
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to reduce timelines in various different application processes.
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and so um employers have to be mindful that these timelines can can change and
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go back and forth and this is not just the timeline this is just the processing
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to get the green card that's a different type of calculation and an assessment altogether
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if you're from India China Philippines Mexico the waiting time for people born in these countries
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is significantly longer
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than people who are born in Canada
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or somewhere in Europe.
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Can you repeat that?
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It kind of dropped.
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So people born in India, Mexico,
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you know, basic countries.
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China.
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Or China.
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Okay, so longer period for them
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than it would be for someone born in Canada
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and where else?
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Anywhere else in the world.
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Oh, just anywhere.
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Yes.
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What happens is the United States
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green card system
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has a limit
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every year.
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And the annual limit is
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140,000 green cards
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each year for employment-based
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applications.
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Is that total for the United States or
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per employer?
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It's a total
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for anybody trying to get an employment-based
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green card. So an employer
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might sponsor you, you might sponsor
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yourself. There are
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one or two categories in which you can do that.
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But they all fall under the 140,000,
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which is never enough for green card applications.
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And so these 140,000 green cards
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are then divided into 7% quotas
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for each country in the world.
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Ah, okay.
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And so if you have a country with a large population,
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there's a longer waiting time
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because they're all fitting into the 7% quota.
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So then, okay.
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So the permanent right to work,
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let's say someone gets that status.
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What does that do for their immigration status
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here in the United States?
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Because it sounds like you still have to go
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through the process of even getting a green card.
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What does that do for that person?
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Are they then, could they be considered a permanent resident?
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Because I'm foggy on that.
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So are you able to explain that?
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You're asking some really fantastic questions, George. Until somebody gets their green card in
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their hands they are not a permanent resident here Got it And you have to maintain your visa status throughout that time And that green card application with the technicalities I mentioned about certain times and certain applications
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unless you get to an approved what's called I-140, where the employer has fulfilled their
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market testing exercise and proven to the Department of Homeland Security saying,
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I couldn't find somebody, I'm sponsoring Joe Blog. Until somebody gets to that point, they cannot
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extend their H-1Bs for three years at a time. And a lot of people in this country are in that
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situation. Yeah. And so you have to have that employer continuously sponsor you for the H-1B.
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Now, one of the scenarios, George, you might have seen over the last few years is the technology
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industry has seen a lot of layoffs.
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And California has seen the layoffs.
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Washington state has seen them.
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You're all over the country.
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People have been laid off.
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Both Google and Apple just got rid of a lot of people a couple of years ago.
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That's right.
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And it actually happened in 2025 already too.
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It did.
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I didn't realize that.
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Yeah,
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it's happening.
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It's not necessarily hitting the news in the same way because there are so many other
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things that are keeping you distracted.
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It's a chaotic 2025 right now.
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Oh my gosh, so much chaos.
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But if you have lost that job, your H-1B has gone.
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But also that green card application that your employer filed has also gone.
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Right.
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So what happens to that person who, okay, because this person who's working is doing so legally, right?
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They're legally here because their employer has sponsored them to be here.
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And it's been determined that, look, we can't find anyone in the market with your skills,
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so we need you here.
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But what happens to that person when they get stuck in this in-between status where,
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like you said, there's only so many green cards available, right?
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140,000, 7%, divided by 7% among other countries, et cetera.
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But then what happens to that individual where they get stuck in that middle where it's like,
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oh, well, we're kind of stuck.
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We can't get you the green card or they couldn't make it happen to where they could extend to a permanent work status.
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What happens to that individual?
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Really complicated.
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And interestingly enough, I appear in a New York Times story.
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So if anybody is interested, they can Google my name in New York Times.
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And there's a story about some people who were laid off and what they had to do.
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So there are some more details in that particular article.
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But in essence, remember we talked about the temporary visa and the permanent visa?
28:50
Yes.
28:50
The temporary visa is what allows you to remain in the United States.
28:55
So one must always have, if you're on a work visa or employment-based immigration system,
29:00
you want to maintain status with a temporary visa.
29:05
The green card application that the employer might have filed and you met that certain stage,
29:12
you can keep your position in that quote-unquote line but a new employer has to go through the
29:20
entire exercise all over again a new employer so different so that person would have to work
29:25
for somebody else at that point yes or if or if if the current employer is giving you a new job
29:33
because they're shuffling or restructuring within their own you know entity and organization
29:40
they too have to file a new application
29:42
because these permanent positions
29:44
are for specific positions.
29:48
There could be some slight changes
29:51
to keep that green card application.
29:54
It does sound like someone could get caught
29:55
in the middle of the timing though, right?
29:57
Oh, for sure, yes.
29:58
Because H1, you know, up to six years,
30:00
as you said earlier on an H1,
30:02
and even by year three,
30:04
let's say they're already working on
30:05
trying to get that employee
30:08
to be a permanent worker status,
30:10
but then there's only 140,000 green cards.
30:13
I'm just in my mind seeing where this can be an issue at times.
30:18
It is an issue all the time.
30:20
You're totally right.
30:21
You've hit the nail exactly where it matters.
30:26
And that waiting time is incredibly important to understand
30:30
because that becomes part of the assessment
30:34
of when you file somebody's green card.
30:36
because people from India, for example, there are calculations and many reports written.
30:43
One, if anybody's looking, you can look up CATO, C-A-T-O, which is a think tank,
30:51
and they have done a lot of studies.
30:53
And so you will look in one of their reports, just Google it.
30:56
And the reports go through a lot of different methods of doing these analysis.
31:01
And they found that anybody from India in this backlog often will have to wait 70 plus years to get their green cards.
31:13
Jeez.
31:14
Yeah, that's crazy.
31:18
That's crazy.
31:19
Really quickly, though, let's define the difference because I wanted to know the difference also between, you were talking about the categories.
31:29
So what's there between one and two, like H1, H2?
31:33
Really good question.
31:35
So H1B is, as I mentioned earlier, you must have a degree to do the job that that degree allows you to do.
31:43
And the employer has that degree.
31:45
So a degree within a particular discipline.
31:49
Exactly.
31:50
That's exactly right.
31:51
And the H2B and the H2A, these are seasonal visas where you don't need a degree.
31:59
The H2A is essentially for agriculture.
32:03
And so when you see people coming here to pick our apples,
32:08
potatoes, get salmon, for example.
32:12
Yeah, I was very familiar with the H2A and how it was used.
32:17
But I was always unfamiliar with how they classify one versus two.
32:21
And then there's 1A.
32:24
H1B is the one that we talked about.
32:26
Right. Is there an H1A or is it just H1B?
32:29
There is H1C, which is used for nurses.
32:34
It's not something I have generally used.
32:37
All right.
32:38
The H1B is typically the one that is used the most.
32:41
But then H3 as well.
32:43
So the H2A is agriculture.
32:46
H2B is for seasonal, intermittent, or one-time work.
32:51
So if you see people at…
32:54
So as you said earlier, the letter denotes the type of field.
32:59
That's exactly right. So the H2B has three types, seasonal work, intermittent work, or one-time work. And if you look at the ski resorts, for example, they likely use the H2B.
33:14
It's very commonly known that President Trump at his Mar-a-Lago estate uses H2B for a lot of the workers that come to the resort.
33:27
And these are seasonal workers.
33:29
And these two have quotas.
33:32
The H2B has quotas.
33:34
and so and the H3 visa is for people training who don't don't have training in their home country
33:41
are coming to the United States to learn a skill that they wouldn't have otherwise
33:46
but proving whether it's H2A or B or 3 or H1B it's all about the paperwork and all of the various
33:54
complicated procedures so you said you're familiar with the H2A there are timelines for it
34:01
I must have done things in advance to be able to jump into the application process for the H2B or H2A.
34:09
It's not simple.
34:11
And there aren't that many lawyers who file H2B and H2A compared to the H1Bs.
34:18
Yeah, that's, I mean, so there's a lot going on to what an H1 or H2 visa does for somebody.
34:28
And I needed you, Tamina, to explain all this because, especially when you go on social media, people don't understand what they're used for.
34:39
It's a legal right for someone to work.
34:41
And there's a reason why that person's being brought in for this particular type of work.
34:45
And everybody just seems to automatically think the worst.
34:50
It's always a negative for the United States, for example, when it's not the case.
34:55
but it can be a negative for the person who gets stuck in the middle
34:58
or gets caught in between those timelines that you were just talking about.
35:01
Yeah, totally.
35:02
And, you know, one of the reasons that there is a lot of concern
35:06
is the people who come to the United States on the H-2A or H-2B visa program
35:13
are similar to the people who are often undocumented doing this work.
35:18
And so if you look at some of the agricultural workers and farm workers, you may find people who are not on actual H2 visas.
35:35
And that's where a lot of the controversy is from.
35:39
But A, we don't have enough of those visas.
35:43
And B, there aren't enough American workers to go and do back in the sun, rain, you know, on farms.
35:52
And so, you know, if you were to ever think about doing a follow-up podcast on these issues, maybe interview somebody who owns a farm and will tell you they see every day.
36:05
Well, but that opens up an entirely different conversation
36:08
because now we're talking about not necessarily
36:12
whether people want to do the jobs,
36:13
it's whether they want to do them for the wages being offered.
36:17
And so now we're talking about competitiveness in the market.
36:21
And the other reason why people have been upset is because,
36:24
you know, look, there's many people who said,
36:25
sure, I'll go pick cherries, for example,
36:28
if it paid $35 an hour.
36:31
We know that's not the wage for that particular position,
36:33
but that's been the argument.
36:36
And so once we started outsourcing labor,
36:38
again, that's why I said this is a different conversation
36:41
and you're bringing in labor from outside
36:43
while they are getting paid the wages
36:46
according to the market
36:47
and what is a standard wage in the guidelines
36:51
of how the government says you should pay someone
36:53
for a particular position,
36:54
those positions in and of themselves
36:56
have been watered down and degraded
36:57
to a lower paying status
37:00
versus if they were paying for somebody else
37:03
like you said, you know, someone, someone here, let's just say a white guy, you know,
37:07
some white guy wants to go pick cherries. You know, that he's probably not going to go do it
37:09
because he doesn't, he's not going to do it for that amount of money. So I don't know if,
37:13
I don't know if it's an argument of whether or not people are afraid to do the work or they just
37:16
don't want to do the work because they don't think it's worth what it's paying my job. Okay.
37:21
So for my business, I'll bring this up. For example, we're in the events industry. So there,
37:26
there's times I work with everybody. I don't care what race country you're from. You know,
37:30
if you're a professional and you know your stuff and I don't have to hold your hand, we're good.
37:34
I just don't want to worry about whether or not you're getting the job done. And I have people
37:38
that are extremely good at their jobs. I mean, know way more than I do and they should. And
37:44
I'm a white guy and I know people that are Mexican. I know people that are Indian that are all in this
37:50
particular industry. And we all network with each other and we keep each other going and we keep
37:53
each other paid, but we are working hard. Okay. Now, now what I'm, where I'm trying to get at is
38:00
all summer, I am in 105 plus weather or 16, 18 hours every day working. I'm doing it because I'm
38:09
getting paid to do it. I'm getting paid well. And I pay everybody who works for me well, because
38:12
they're specialists within that, within that industry. But when we're talking about people
38:17
in the fields, they're not treated the same. And I think that is the issue that we have.
38:22
And that's why most people say, yeah, I'm not going to go pick those cherries or cut that lawn because I'm not getting paid enough for me to go out there and sweat.
38:30
And maybe we need to change the perception of how people view hard work and labor in the United States.
38:37
Maybe it's just a matter of retraining people or holding the industries accountable for making the wages livable.
38:45
What do you think of that?
38:46
That's a really, I mean, it's such a complicated situation that not just America, but probably
38:54
other countries grapple with it.
38:56
Oh, absolutely.
38:57
It's about the industry, right?
38:58
I mean let say you know you a farm owner Let just take an example of a farm owner And he you know he got a seasonal sort of cherry picking And he got to make sure the cherries hit the grocery store where we you and I are going to go buy you know a pound of cherries for maybe
39:18
How much is he actually making?
39:20
You know, that business, there's a common misconception.
39:26
And there are different businesses, different issues.
39:28
But what does the standard farm business make and what is the salary that's necessary to do that?
39:39
Now, if they're paying $35 an hour for a particular position in which they're actually losing $40 an hour, how are they actually going to keep that business going?
39:53
It's a very complicated situation.
39:57
We do need livable wages in this country.
40:00
The livable wages question comes up in childcare, in teaching, in construction.
40:07
It's not limited to the farm workers.
40:10
No, no, no, it isn't.
40:12
But the answer, you know, I don't necessarily have a good answer for you because, you know, it's just, it's way too complicated to go into.
40:24
But I will say this to you.
40:27
I have had clients who own construction companies and home care, you know, nursing homes where people are trying to get into hospice care, so to speak, because, you know, our medical industry has its own very big problems.
40:43
And so when they want to hire people for the construction industry or the, you know, nursing home, they cannot find American workers.
40:53
And one particular business owner said to me, Tamina, I was going to pay him exactly what he wanted.
40:59
He showed up.
41:00
He didn't know which side the hammer was up or down.
41:05
I've seen that.
41:07
I've seen that.
41:09
So you're going to pay somebody, you know, a very high wage for not knowing how to do the job.
41:16
You just said.
41:17
True, true.
41:17
But I think that also is a reflection of how our culture has changed over the years.
41:25
It went from being proud of working hard and using your hands to playing video games and doing other things to make a living.
41:34
So that could just be generational or a cultural shift versus what it used to be, let's say, back in the 40s and 50s and so on.
41:41
But I'm not arguing.
41:43
I'm just asking the question.
41:45
You know what I'm saying?
41:45
I think it's a great question because these are thought-provocative issues that if we don't discuss them in an amicable, loving way, how would listeners even think about it twice?
42:02
And the correlation to that is, are we really developing the workforce that we need for this country?
42:10
Do we have enough vocational training for people who can't go to our schools?
42:16
They can't afford the education costs that are required.
42:20
Are we giving them vocational tools in schools, plumbing or becoming an electrician?
42:26
Are we doing enough of that?
42:29
Are we putting enough emphasis on STEM education at kindergarten level so that the next generation of workforce can do the jobs that H-1B workers are doing?
42:40
And the other question is, are we going out of our way to make those certain positions, whether they be the hands-on positions you mentioned earlier or the professional positions?
42:49
Are we doing enough to make them attractive to people to want to do it?
42:53
I mean, is it a marketing issue?
42:56
Well, totally.
42:57
It's so complicated, George.
43:00
No, it is. It is.
43:01
We really need the entire society to come together and say, we see a solution this way.
43:10
If we don't find the solutions ourselves and we're not invested in the solutions and we're not speaking up about what each group of people needs,
43:20
we're never going to have the solution and we're going to get railroaded by executive orders
43:25
by a handful of people who have the money and power to influence everybody else and
43:31
point out these are the problems but not necessarily come up with real working solutions.
43:36
Well, yeah. And the problem with the solution, it needs a... Solutions aren't overnight. It needs a
43:44
very well thought out, tested, qualified plan that needs to be put in place and actually,
43:50
when that is put in place, you need to stick to it and not be distracted and go off course.
43:55
And I don't think that's something that has been done. We seem very reactionary when it comes to
44:00
the workforce in America and to the markets in general. We're reactionary. There's not a lot
44:06
of planning, really. I mean, you could argue that, sure, in a business, you plan your finances,
44:13
your income versus your overhead, your net versus your gross, et cetera, how much margin you're
44:18
making on a sale, what your percentage was of this and that, and you can go through your sales cycles
44:22
versus, so you know, hey, in Christmas, I know this is going to be huge for me. And then after
44:27
Christmas, yeah, it's going to die down. We're going to take some hits because it returns and
44:30
et cetera. Now that's just data. You're just taking all that in, extrapolating it, and you're
44:35
analyzing it, and then you can make certain predictions. But are you truly, truly planning
44:41
for the future of the actual industry or the workforce down the road? Because fast forward,
44:46
Here we are now.
44:47
We're finding less and less qualified individuals in the United States to do these positions that we need filled.
44:56
Totally, totally.
44:58
And it's a conversation that everybody should be having.
45:04
And so I'm so glad you're leading the way and trying to make sure people get to hear some of these things.
45:13
It's just imperative.
45:14
You know, it's imperative.
45:15
I just look at things.
45:18
I'm just, you know, nothing special about me.
45:19
Okay.
45:20
I'm just an individual that I take it in.
45:23
I look at what's going on and I'm inquisitive.
45:26
I have to ask these questions.
45:27
I think most people have these questions on their mind, but they don't speak out.
45:30
They don't ask.
45:31
They don't talk about it.
45:32
They just kind of go, well, that's sad.
45:34
And they sweep it under the rug and they just keep moving on with their life.
45:38
Nobody's really having these conversations except for maybe people like you, because this
45:41
is what you do for a living.
45:42
and you see it all the time,
45:45
especially when it relates to immigrants
45:47
and having to deal with these work visas.
45:50
So you see it firsthand,
45:51
but most people, most average people
45:54
do not see this or even deal with this.
45:56
They just rely on what's going on in social media
45:58
to tell them what's going on.
46:00
And unfortunately, that's not the way to go
46:02
about getting your information.
46:05
Yeah, but you know,
46:06
love people to just think about for a second.
46:09
You might not need,
46:10
You might not visibly be seeing the high-skilled workers in your life, but the high-skilled workers are behind almost everything that you're doing.
46:21
If you're at the office working on Zoom, a high-skilled immigrant founded Zoom.
46:27
If you're on your phone using WhatsApp or Instagram, these are, as I mentioned before, the hardware, software network in your phone.
46:36
They're being managed by immigrants.
46:38
you know if you go to the grocery store and you're seeing the shiny apples on on the shelves
46:46
immigrants are likely picking them if you're getting the milk seamlessly appearing on your table on
46:52
your shelf immigrants are likely milking the cow or however they operate dairy stuff if you're
46:59
finding the toilet paper in the grocery store it's because an immigrant is likely driving that truck
47:04
which you know obviously was very very prevalent as or was exposed during the pandemic. Immigrants
47:12
are actually the fabric of a society and because it's much of it is invisible those who are just
47:22
living lives and you know day-to-day doing whatever they're doing it's not apparent but if
47:29
we didn't have the immigrants, life would be falling apart. And that day may be coming soon.
47:34
Who knows? I hope I haven't jinxed us, but it doesn't take me to jinx us. You know,
47:39
the executive orders alone will do it. I think what gets a little convoluted
47:43
and everything is people trying to throw a blanket over the word immigrant, you know,
47:50
versus those who, I don't know how you want to phrase it. I know everyone does it differently,
47:54
undocumented, illegal, whatever.
47:56
But I'm just going to say
47:57
illegal immigrants versus legal,
47:59
people who are legally here.
48:01
And I'm not sure your feelings
48:03
because you see firsthand families
48:05
that have to go through this.
48:07
But how do we move forward
48:12
in handling those who are here illegally
48:14
but are trying to be here
48:17
because they're trying to make
48:18
a better life for themselves?
48:20
And again, I'm going to keep
48:22
the politics out of it
48:22
Because I know that there are other conversations to be had with this, to be quite honest.
48:29
I've done a lot of research that comes straight from the Border Patrol's data.
48:34
So I've seen it all.
48:35
And I've done more than one show on this.
48:37
So there's not much you can say about it that I probably wouldn't know or could tell you.
48:40
But for those who are trying to do it the right way,
48:44
and this brings me back to a story of a friend I have who had to come to this country due to,
48:52
I'll just say he had to come over.
48:55
Grandfather was already here.
48:57
Grandfather was legally here for many years,
48:59
brought his grandson over to protect him.
49:01
And he's been here for a long time.
49:03
He actually worked for me for a while.
49:04
He went to university.
49:06
He's a computer science major.
49:07
He works for a utility company.
49:09
Guy's brilliant, you know?
49:10
And he's going through a situation.
49:12
He did it the way he and his family did it,
49:15
the right way they stuck to it, the whole deal.
49:17
Even if in the beginning,
49:19
he had to just get him out to save him, right?
49:21
His grandfather had to save him.
49:23
But after all that time, legally, he's here legally, period.
49:28
And he's trying to get his wife over here right now, but he's battling this.
49:31
Like, no matter what he does, he's hired multiple lawyers.
49:35
He's gone through every scenario you could think of, and it just keeps getting delayed
49:39
and pushed back, and it's been years.
49:43
And so those people, I think some people, or most people these days, look at every single
49:50
illegal immigrant as someone who's trying to do something bad or they're a bad person.
49:55
Technically, yeah, you're breaking the law, but at the same time, not every single person
50:00
is here for nefarious reasons.
50:03
How are you handling that?
50:06
Or in your experience, how have you seen the perception of people when it comes to that
50:12
distinction of illegal versus those who are legally here?
50:15
Or do people just not even see the difference?
50:17
Well, this administration, the new one, is not just making orders about undocumented immigrants. A lot of the executive orders are affecting legal immigrants too. But coming to a very basic answer to this very complicated situation is that we need immigration reform.
50:41
We have not had immigration laws, comprehensive immigration laws to keep up with the modern society that we live in since the 1990s.
50:53
And now think about how many times over the world has changed and evolved and how many, you know, evolutions we've had.
51:00
We've, you know, industrial revolution, we've had, you know, the Y2K, now the AI, globalization, the world is so much smaller.
51:13
The laws have not kept up with that.
51:15
In addition to that, America is part of many international treaties, including the Human Rights Convention.
51:22
and you know nobody is illegal they could be undocumented but human rights are an incredibly
51:31
important part of American values and so our laws are not necessarily keeping up with what we need
51:39
for this country and what we need for the future there are jobs that need to be done in this
51:46
country and there are people who want jobs from different countries there are people who want to
51:51
Just stay alive.
51:52
You know, today you talk about cartels and that's a lot.
51:56
That's one of the issues for some of the Latin American countries.
52:00
But other countries are going through wars.
52:02
There are climate change issues.
52:04
that are displacing people.
52:07
You know, the entire world needs to come together and find solutions.
52:12
But in America, we need comprehensive immigration reform
52:16
to make sure that our laws are keeping up with the times.
52:20
Okay, so in your mind, what would that look like?
52:23
Because if we look at it from, as you said, a humanitarian standpoint,
52:29
and we do need a reform, we absolutely do.
52:32
It's crazy how long it takes to get things done in the system.
52:35
And there's no reason anybody has to wait 10 years, 50 years, 70 years.
52:39
I mean, that's just stupid.
52:40
It makes no sense to me.
52:42
But with your statement of there's no illegal, there's just undocumented, right?
52:48
It's all about humanity.
52:50
So by that statement, does that mean the entire world, every country should accept everyone equally?
52:57
Should it just be an open system for anyone to just travel in and out of each
53:02
country without restriction?
53:04
No, I don't.
53:05
I think there should be agreements between countries to make sure that there are
53:09
global solutions when is um you know climate change that is you know wiping away you know land for people to live in You know my heritage is from Bangladesh
53:24
It's a small country next to India.
53:27
It's probably going to be under the ocean in the next 50 to 100 years.
53:31
Maldives might be one of those.
53:33
I'm just saying there has to be global solutions.
53:36
world leaders go to, you know, Davos or wherever, there has to be world solutions. But for our
53:44
immediate issue, we are in America, we are at the, we have borders, we are bordering Canada and
53:51
Mexico. You know, there has to be solutions that come from leadership that take into account the
54:01
values that we live by and finding common solutions and do I have an answer no you know
54:08
I'm just one person who advocates for what is what I feel is right for the highest good but the people
54:15
that hold the power can't seem to agree on anything it's become a very divisive issue
54:22
but if we could go back to love as a source of energy in our world that every human being deserves love and every human being deserves a way to just live
54:38
Why can't we come up with solutions
54:40
that can actually everybody?
54:44
And everybody does their own share.
54:47
I'm not saying America should take everybody and anybody.
54:49
I'm saying that we need to have
54:51
comprehensive immigration reform
54:53
actually can find some solutions.
54:56
And right now we have nothing.
54:59
George, I'm so sorry.
55:00
It's three o'clock.
55:01
I have to go.
55:02
This type of conversation can go on all day long.
55:06
And so I'm so sorry.
55:08
I have to leave at three because I have a call coming up,
55:10
but I just wanted to make sure that you knew that
55:12
before we dive into something else.
55:14
Right.
55:16
Well, if we have to cut it off for now,
55:19
we'll just have to pick up on another show if we're available.
55:22
Yeah, sure, sure. Totally, totally. But you know, I so appreciate it, George, because these are the conversations that need to happen.
55:31
Yeah I mean there still so much for us to talk about in regard to just immigration law and everything But regardless why don you just quickly let everybody know where they can find you and whatnot And I sure you and I will be talking again I hope we can do this again I would love that I would love that Well George thank you so much for having me
55:51
People, if they want to connect with LinkedIn, you can find me there, Tamina Watson. And my
55:56
website at my law firm is whatanimmigrationlaw.com. And I am an author. Thank you for mentioning
56:03
mentioning that. My author page is taminawatson.com. And I have a couple of podcasts.
56:09
They're all, you can't, you can't miss me, you know, just Google me or find me.
56:13
Okay. All right. Well, thanks for your time. And again, let's, let's please do this again.
56:17
I think we have to pick up and do this again and just have, just for this conversation.
56:22
Sounds good. Okay.
56:23
That sounds good. Thank you again, George, for finding me. Take care.
56:26
Yeah. Thanks.
56:27
Okay. Bye.
56:28
Thank you for listening. And I hope you found that conversation informative.
56:31
please like subscribe and share the show with others and don't forget to turn on notifications
56:37
for world ablaze also visit us at our website world ablaze podcast.com and you could buy me
56:44
a coffee as well that link is also on our website have a great day