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Throwback: The Assassination of Kwawhtemok! · Tales From Aztlantis

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: This episode is sponsored by Archeo Gato Tours.
• 0:04
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• 0:09
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• 0:33
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• 0:39
  SPEAKER_04: Or just follow the link in the show notes.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: Now, on with the show.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: You must excuse me.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've grown quite where I this hasn't been easy in the moment.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you've learned a lesson.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: A lesson in honesty.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Honesty to yourself and honesty to others.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: That lesson will stand you in good step on your money.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've all learned a good lesson.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've always heard that honesty is the best policy.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm catching on why that's some why that's some why that's so.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_04: Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to yet another episode of Tales from Ostlantis.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: We are your hosts, Curly Tlapoyawa.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: And Ruben Arellano Tlacatekat.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_04: What is up, man?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_04: How you been?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: I've been living.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Busy.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: Very busy.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I I know, man.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_04: I you've been you've been letting me know all the the variety of things that you've been doing.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: What you did a play, right?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: I did a play, yes.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um It was uh a play that um kind of brought some attention to environmental issues, uh environment environmental racism, uh dealing with communities of color, uh communities of uh low-income working class, um people down in South Texas.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's related to like the pollution that a lot of those industries down there, the you know, the petroleum industries and such uh that do a lot of chemical polluting of the environment.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of bringing awareness to that.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's uh it's also tied to some of the issues that are going on here in Dallas, especially out in West Dallas.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: After the play, uh we had a local community grassroots group that um has been organized uh for the last couple of years trying to combat some of those issues in West Dallas, uh, local polluters that are in basically black and brown communities.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: And um the city has kind of stepped in to to put a limit, um, but it's gonna take uh if I'm not mistaken, like seven years for for the company to like shut down completely.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it's gonna be operating, but it's gonna be a slow kind of shutdown that's over the course of seven years.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And like an extended decommission.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and the community you're right, and so the community, the community is is you know, uh the people who are involved with with uh with the organization called uh singleton unidos.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and uh they're like nah, this needs to happen like now.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's been going on for so long that we can't wait for you to shut it down seven years from now.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's an ongoing issue, but yeah, so I was I was part of that play, and and it was it was great.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: It was great to be um on stage and uh you know I I did get a little bit of a stage fright because this is my first first thing, first uh it was a reading, it was an actual play.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm not a thespian, um, but you know, it was it was great.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: It was great.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's definitely a different experience, right?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely, and you know, yeah, being an instructor and and being able to communicate um in front of people like really helped.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: If I if I didn't have that experience, it would have been I don't know if I would have been able to do it, honestly.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because we only had a week to practice.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um in fact the uh the the director of the play is so one of the lanzantes from our group.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh nice.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: And uh she she is uh she was uh I don't know like how they deal with this with the with the theater companies, but uh she was working with Teatro Ballas, which is the the oldest uh Chicano slash quote unquote Latino um theater company in Dallas.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's been around since the 80s, uh in fact.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and so she reached out to me and she's like, hey, we're looking for someone to play the role of uh his name was Gonzalo Guerrero.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh she's like we're looking for someone who's oh you know, can play the role of an old school Chicamo Tejano, and and she's like, I think you would fit their the role.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Oh, okay, sure, why not?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_04: Well, what I'm hearing is it was Hollywood nepotism that got you this role.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: Pretty much you knew pretty much.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: I knew the director.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that how it happens?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Can you say the name of the play?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: The name of the play is Choke.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Choke.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, choke.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: And uh the the director's name is uh Alexandra Hernandez.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so shout out to Alexandra.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, choke.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for giving me an opportunity to be on the play.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, that's just one of the one of the many things that I've been involved in, but I don't want to um monopolize the time here.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you and I got uh an unexpected visit, man, and I appreciate you uh offering uh the the couch to me because I was stuck stuck in the DFW airport.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_04: My flight had been canceled.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_04: I was on my way to Indiana, and uh you were kind enough to say, Hey man, you want to come crash?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you for that.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_04: Couch surfer.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_04: You're welcome.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: That was very nice.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it was cool to see you.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_04: That was awesome.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_04: That was a nice little visit.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_04: It was, man.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_04: It was a nice little visit.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_04: Had some good food.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: Had some good drinks.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: Good drinks, good food, good times.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, good company.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well, recently I was at the uh Indigenous Pop Culture Expo in Oklahoma City.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_04: It was held at uh this great museum called the First Americans Museum, and uh, you know, the uh the abbreviation is uh fam, right?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like you're going to the FAM for the First Americans Museum.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_04: It was how is the museum?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_04: The museum is great, it's really beautiful.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it's well done.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_04: They had a great exhibit on drums, and I guess one of the organizers was telling me that they had to start like chaperoning the white people into that exhibit because they would start banging on the fucking drums.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: Get out of here.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like they immediately made a beeline, I guess.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: It started like fucking playing with the drums that were on exhibit.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: Just like some kids, right?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_04: They just kind of helped themselves.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, what the fuck, man?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: Just very disrespectful.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_04: We can touch it, right?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, this just this shit doesn't matter.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: But what was cool is behind the museum is this uh modern uh version of a mound.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_04: And you can climb up on top of it, and it's it's oriented to the winter and summer solstices.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um is it an original mound or is it a little bit?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's it's modern.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: They they built it.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's a reconstruction, yeah.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I'm not mistaken, there are some mounds in an Oklahoma.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: I forget exactly where, but they're part of that whole uh like mound uh culture, the Mississippian cultures that extended out into like Oklahoma and parts of Louisiana.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well, it makes sense then why they would have this this mound.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_04: It's a modern interpretation of one behind.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, what's funny is you could uh you could walk along the top of it, and uh Oklahoma is flat as shit, man.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_04: There's not a fucking mountain for hundreds and hundreds of miles.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_04: It is the southern plains.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_04: So you stand on this mound and you could just see I I felt so isolated and exposed.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_04: Like I didn't realize how protected I feel by mountains.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: Like growing up here, surrounded by these mountains, like it it kind of um feels like they're hugging you.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it has a psychological effect on you where it feels very like like protection, exactly.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_04: Protected your home, and then I I all of a sudden I'm somewhere where there's no mountains.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_04: You're exposed.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: And and the event itself was fantastic.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um met a lot of great people, had fun.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's very different, very different.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_04: What were you doing there?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: So I was a guest at the Indigenous Pop Culture Expo.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_04: So they had me present uh my documentary short, the uh guardians of the Purple Kingdom.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, that's right.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: And then they had me uh talk about the uh Mexica calendar system, and they had me present the uh the game uh Tambuchi, which is the little ball game from Western Mexico that you play with the corn husk ball.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_04: And uh it's a lot of fun.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: We got a lot of kids out there from all different nations playing this game.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_04: It was very cool.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_04: Nice, it was a lot of fun.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: Like the kids dug it.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um in the future, I hope to take um like like make multiple balls and then just give them away to each kid that shows up to play so that they can take it home with them.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, here locally uh we have a group of uh uh native um uh stickball players.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Nice um that that played not that far from here, actually, here in and near where I live, like a five-minute drive.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: And they practice uh on the weekends.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: I need to find out exactly when, but you know, if I have some time, I'm gonna go over there and check it out and see what see what stickball is all about.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: I've been hearing a lot about stickball.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, um it's probably not the same as Tambuchi, but I'm sure that there's some correlation there, right?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and they also had a uh an uh an exhibition of stickball at this uh event.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well they did that, yeah.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: And they did it um with a glow in the dark ball, and they did it at night.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_04: Oh wow, so like Tron?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it was cool.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_04: They attached like glow sticks to the to the sticks that they were playing with.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_04: And so it did.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: It looked like Tron.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it was pretty rad.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_04: Did you take video of that?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um There's gotta be some video.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there's gotta be some video of this event.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_04: But it was a lot of fun.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: And now we find ourselves here, back once again.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_04: Back once again in season three.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: Is it season three?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Season three.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Don't call it three seasons.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: Because we've been here for a couple of years.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, a couple of years.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: Much to the chagrin of some of the haters.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_04: The rumors of our demise were greatly exaggerated, ladies and gentlemen.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_04: Look at all these rumors surrounding me every day.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_04: So today we're going to be talking about a topic that is near and dear to both of us.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_04: The assassination of Quau Temoc.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_04: On February 28th of the year 1525, Quau Temoc, the last sovereign Tlachwani, ruler or speaker of the Mexica Nation and the Anahuac Confederacy, was assassinated by Hernán Cortes.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_04: That year, Cortes took Quautec along on his expedition to Honduras, where he defeated Cristoval de Olide, who had claimed Honduras as his own under the influence of Diego Velazquez, the governor of Cuba.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_04: De Olide was a Spanish adventurer, conquistador, and rebel who played a role in the invasion of Mexico and Honduras, and Cortes viewed him as a threat.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, Cortes had come to distrust anyone with a semblance of authority and fearing that Cuauhtemoc might lead an insurrection in Mexico, brought him on the Honduran expedition.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: Cortes eventually ordered Cuauhtemoc hanged along with Tetlepan Quetzal, the Tlaatuani of Tlacopan.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: But we're getting ahead of ourselves.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: We should start with some basic facts first.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_04: Who was Cuautemoc and why is he an important figure in the collective memory of Mexicans?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: Early life.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_04: This episode of Tales from Ostlantis is brought to you by Ostlantis Premium.
• 13:04
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• 13:09
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• 13:11
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• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: Just visit talesfromaslantis.com and click GoPreum or follow the link in the show notes.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: And now, on with the show.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: The early years of Guatemok's life are virtually unknown.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: There are no reliable sources describing his formative years, and in fact, prior to being elected as the eleventh and last sovereign Tlatwani of the Anawak Confederacy, the historical record is relatively silent on him.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: His life is so obscure that there is no consensus as to when he was born and how old he was when he became Tlatwani.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Most sources place his birth between 1495 and 1497, making him roughly about 25 years old when he died.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Other sources claim that he was 18, but that seems unlikely given that he would have been too young to be handed the mantle of leadership.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thus, Quatemok is often referred to as El Abuelo Hoven, or the young grandfather.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: The identity of his mother is also a cause for dispute, with various sources pointing to several women.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: However, there are two contenders.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: The first one is Tlilan Kapat, Princess of Tlatelolco, and lineal descendant through her maternal line of Nasawalkoyot, the poet prince of Teshkoko.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: The other is Tiakapansin, also from Tlatelolco and a princess.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: But of the two, it is the latter, Tiakapansin, who is considered the most likely to have been his mother.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: In contrast, there is no question who Gwatemuk's father was.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: We saw it was the eighth Latwani under the whose reign from 1486 through 1502 the Annawa Confederacy reached its greatest height.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: As a descendant of that noble line, Guatemuk was a logical choice for leadership and resistance.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: As for Gwatemuk's wife, this is a little complicated and deserves more study to understand the dynamics at play during this stressful time.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: Her name was Tequichpo Ishka Shoshitsin and was the favorite daughter of Motekusuma II Shokoyotzin and his wife Tesalko Tequichpo, who was from Tonalco and the daughter of Totokiwat, king of Tlacopan, or Takuba.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Before the invasion, she was commonly known as Tequichpo Ista Shochit, and after the fall of Tenochtitlan, she became known as Isabel Moktezuma.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: More on her shortly.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: As for Quatemok, we know that he was educated in the Telpo Shkali, an institution of education for young children, primarily boys, and that he later attended the Kalmecak, a place where people from elite families sent their sons to study politics, religion, and martial arts.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: As a distinguished alumnus, he rose through the ranks and became at Lakatekutli, a high-ranking officer in the Aztec Legion.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: His political achievements also led him to become the Kwautlatwani or Eagle Ruler of Tlatelolco, and that is the extent of what is known about his life prior to becoming leader.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: We won't get into the details of the meeting between Motekusoma II and Cortes, nor the lengthy stay of the Spanish and their allies in the city of Tenochtitlan here.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: It is useful to note, however, that the Quichpo Istagshit, the future wife of Guatemok, had only recently returned to live at the palace after the death of her first husband, Atlikasi, who had been a prominent Lakatecat or commander in the Aztic ranks.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: Cortes sensed that his welcome was waning, and in a calculated move that only a conniving coward can make, he seized the way Tlatwani Motekusoma and imprisoned him in the palace of Ashayacat.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Among the nobles arrested was Quitlawak, the Tlatwani's brother who was the lord of Iztapalapa.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: After almost a hundred days, the people of Tenoshtitlan became annoyed by the presence of the Spanish and their Indian allies, the Tlashkalteca, Totonaka, Washotzinka, and others, and the rumblings of discontent became an all-encompassing topic of public conversation and debate.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: Believing that Cuitlawak wouldn't do anything to imperil the life of the Tlatwani, his brother, Motekusoma II, or Motakusoma Shokoyotsin, Cortes allowed his release with specific instructions to appease the mounting rebellion and placate his people.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_04: Having distrusted the Spanish from the start, Cuitlahuac led the resistance himself.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_04: In a desperate attempt to placate the Tenochtitka masses, Cortes forced Motecusoma to speak to his people and bring order to the city.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_04: But it was too late.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_04: Motecusoma is killed in the process, and the battle for Tenochtitlan ensued.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_04: The Spanish maintained that he'd been killed by his own people, the idea being that because he was perceived as a puppet of the Spanish, an angry demonstrator killed him with a projectile, which is usually a rock, right, is is if I remember the story correctly.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: Indigenous accounts tell a different story, that it was the Spanish who killed Monte Cosoma, when he lost his power and influence over his people.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: When the Tlatwani dead with the Tlatwani dead, the Spanish feared for their lives.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: And on the night of June 30th, 1520, they and their native allies attempted to leave the city, but were caught as they fled.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_04: Alerted by a woman gathering water on a moonless night, Mexica warriors chased and attacked the invaders as they fled.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_04: By some estimates, approximately 400 Spaniards and 4,000 native allies were killed before reaching the mainland.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: They and the horses they had burdened with much of the stolen wealth sunk to the bottom of Lake Teshco.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_04: Cortes called this defeat La Noche Triste, or the Sad Night, due to the heavy losses they incurred.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: In the Mexicayo tradition, this event is known as La Noche de la Victoria, the night of victory.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: During the confusion of the fight, Tequichpo Istakshoit and her half-sister and brother, Dona Marina and Don Pedro, made their way back to their family in the city.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_04: They had ended up in the care of Cortes after Motexoma had entrusted the ladies of the court to him when he was imprisoned and had lost the confidence of his people.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_04: They were in the thick of the combat and were among the few courtesan survivors.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: Two days after the death of Motexoma Shokoyotzin, the usual four-day mourning ritual was cut short.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: Motekusoma was deemed not worthy of a complete ritual, and they st and the city needed to elect a new Tlahtwani to provide the return of stability to a shaken city.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_04: The Council of Elders chose Kuitlawak and decided simultaneously to marry him to Tekpo Istakshochit to legitimize his right to the throne.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: She was 19 years old when she became the wife of the 10th Tlatwani.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: Kuitlawak was in the process of organizing the defense of the city when he fell ill and died from smallpox.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_04: He was only in office for 80 days.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_04: Because native peoples had no immunity to the diseases that Europeans introduced, hundreds of millions of indigenous Americans perished within the first hundred years of contact.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: As for Tekwichpo Istakshoci, despite being twice widowed in the short span of two years, her role in this epic drama was far from over.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Kuatemuk succeeded his uncle Kuitlawak and became the 11th Latwani in 1520.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like his uncle, he married Tokupo Istakshochi to legitimize his position of authority.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Even in times of chaos and disarray, the Mexica made sure to follow the protocols of succession.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Kuatemuk was instructed to reconstruct the city of Tenochtitlan and defend the Anahuac Confederacy from a potential Spanish counter-offensive.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: When the Spanish returned, they chose to besiege the city from all sides and prevented any food and fresh water from being delivered.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: In addition to this stress and uncertainty, the smallpox epidemic contributed to the unimaginable pain and suffering.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Guatemuk had considerable military experience and he succeeded in pushing the Spanish back in a series of land and naval assaults before additional troops swelled the Spanish numbers.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: After many weeks of urban warfare, Tenochtitlan was in dire need of assistance.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: Of all the Altepets that once belonged to the Confederacy, only the Tlatelolka remained loyal.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Even the Teshkoka, the once historical allies of the Tenoshka, had withdrawn their support.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: By the end of the siege, the survivors found refuge in Tlatelolco, where even the women took up arms and bravely fought to save their city.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: On August 13th, 1521, Quautemok was on his way to call for reinforcements from the countryside when he was captured while crossing Lake Techoko.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: He surrendered to Cortes along with all the surviving Pibilitin or nobles and offered him his own knife so that he could be killed honorably.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: But that was not meant to be.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Cortes had other plans for Guatemok.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_04: After the fall of Tenochtitlan, Cortes treated Quatemok with a semblance of civility, saying, A Spaniard knows how to respect valor even in an enemy.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: However, convinced that Guatemoc knew the whereabouts of a supposed hidden treasure, Cortes allowed the royal treasurer Aldrete to have Cuatemuk tortured.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Cortes had gotten it in his head that the Tenochtit had hidden a vast treasure, and he wanted Guatemok to reveal its location.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's in Utah.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: The Tlatwani of Tlacopan, Tletlanketzal, and the Siwacot, or Councillor Tlakotzin, were also tortured with fire, but even they refused to divulge information about the imagined treasures the Spanish coveted.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: According to the oral tradition, it is said that during the torture, Tetlipanketzal asked Guatemok to reveal the location of the treasure to stop the pain and torture to which Guatemok responded, Do you think I am in a bath or pleasure?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: This has alternately been quoted as Do you think I am in a bed of roses?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: The exact date of details of this episode are unknown, but in the end, a shamed Cortes stopped the torture.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: The Mexican people regard this Stoicism as the highest example of discipline and spiritual strength and resistance.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Cortés was looking for material wealth such as gold and jewels, but in the oral tradition, that's interpreted as Cuauhtemoc guarding the cultural and spiritual treasure of the Mexica people.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: In 1525, Cortes took Cualtemoc on his expedition to Honduras because he feared Cuatemoc would lead an insurrection in his absence.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: During this expedition, Cortes ordered him hanged on February 28th along with Tesla Panquetzal.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_04: Cuaute's last words to Cortes demonstrate his unconquerable spirit.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_04: I knew what it was to trust to your false promises.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: I knew that you had destined me to this fate, since I did not fall by my own hand when you entered my city of Tenochtitlan.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back after a quick break.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_04: Have you picked up your Mexica calendar for the year twelve, Flint?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_04: Or how about a paperback copy of the four disagreements?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_04: Just visit talesfromacidlantis.com for all the latest merchandise and show some love for your favorite podcast.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_04: That's TalesFromOcitlantis.com for all the latest merchandise.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: Now, back to the show.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where his story ends in relation to the historical record.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: He has since had a second life as a symbol of resistance and national pride, beginning in the late 19th century.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: Before the resurgence of Guatemalk as a patriotic symbol in the 1870s, he was not really part of the public memory.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: After his introduction into the National Pantheon of Heroes, his image and story receive attention and are used to promote the Mexican state for patriotic purposes.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Guatemok becomes a stand-in for a unified resistance from Mexico and Latin America against American imperialism.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: One example of this display of international fraternity, Mexico sent a statue of Guatemoc to Brazil, where it still stands today.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: I did not know that.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: The way that we understand Guatemoc in the Mexica tradition can be traced to the controversy over his supposed bones.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: This starts in the late 1950s in Iscatio Panguero, a sleepy town that drew national attention when it was revealed as the location of Guatemok's long-lost tomb.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: The dissimilar set of bones of men, women, and children that were eventually found ignited a fierce debate that blurred the line between history and politics.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: People took sides, and critics and believers debated the authenticity of Guatemok's bones, despite the clear evidence that the tomb was an elaborate forgery.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_04: Well, plus a prominent the the fact that all Tlatwani were cremated.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, so that was a good thing.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_04: Do we know that about Quatemuk?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_04: Well, we know that all all of the Tlatwani were historically cremated.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: Cremated.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_04: And then we also know that Quatemok was hung from a tree and just left there, right?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_04: So he wouldn't have even been cremated.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_04: But the oral tradition states that he his body was recovered.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that they hung him upside down, they cut off his head, they let all the blood run out, and then they spirited his body away under the, you know, the darkness of night and traveled in between.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's a very cool romantic story, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_04: That they they smuggled his body back to his girth his birthplace in Ishkatiopan and uh buried him there in a place that would eventually become a church.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe we can uh explore that here uh in a little bit.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: A prominent resident of Ishkatiopan, Salvador Rodriguez Juarez, claimed to have found papers that reveal the tomb's location.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: A closer look at these documents show that they were forged by mixing old documents with newer ones that were made to look old.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Nevertheless, the intellectual and material author of Cuatemo's tomb was Florentino Juarez, a prominent resident of Ishcatiopan, who was looking for a way to connect the town to the growing indigenismo that the federal government promoted in provincial towns.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people don't understand this or don't know this, but uh at that time the Mexican government would pay people in towns to play up their indigenity, even if they no longer had a uh like a traditional connection to it.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: If if it was there was some kind of historical connection to indigenity that could be sort of uh played up, the government would come in and they would set up shop and and they would create these programs where people got paid to for true, it was for tourism, yeah, not just and not just international, because we usually think of like international American, especially American tourists, but it was also for for national tourism for people in the cities in Mexico to go out into the countryside and get a glimpse of you know how the indigenous people, you know, used to live and how they live now, and how there's this continuity, right?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: And and this is part of it.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: This is what what this guy uh Florentino Juarez was was basically tapping into.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's like, Oh, there's some money to be made.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_04: And it was all tied to this uh this nationalism that that Mexico formative nationalism over what was going to be the character of Mexico's national identity.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: The importance of this event to Mexica comes through Mexico's first female archaeologist, Eulalia Guzmán.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: She had close ties to the movimiento confederado restaurador de la cultura de Anahuac or the MCRCA, especially to the historian Ignacio Romero Vargas y Turbide, who is well known for his book Los Gobiernos Socialistas de Anahuac.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: It is no surprise then that the leader of the MCRCA, Rodolfo Nieva Lopez, would announce that the Declaration of Guatemok was revealed to him by Estanislao Ramirez, who had connections to the Secret Council of Elders from the town of Tlahuac.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Ramirez was a neo Azteca who had been associated with the early Mexicanistas that predated and influenced the MCRCA people like, you know, our good friend uh Luna Cárdenas and the Society of Aztec Friends, right?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Domingo Martinez Paredes.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: And Domingo Martinez Paredes, he was part of that whole crew.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Tlacaele and yeah.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Tlacaele comes in through the MCRC later, but yeah.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: The following is a quote from a 2012 article entitled Profeccias de la Mexicanidad entre el Milenarismo Nacional by Francisco de la Peña.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, the title is Mexicanist Prophecies Between Millenniarism and La New Age, or is it Millennialism?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's millennialism, isn't it?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna read the quote in Spanish first, and then Curly will say the English translation.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: So we're getting sort of like a direct line from the oral tradition from one person to the next to the next, and these are supposed to be like the people that uh predate Nieva, and that's whom he got the the the eventually the the consigna or the mandato from, right?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_04: Translation.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_04: Nieva claimed to have received the declaration through Mr.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_04: Estanislao Ramirez, a native engineer from the town of Tlawak, and supposed custodian of the declaration through the oral tradition.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_04: But, according to another version, the secret declaration had been kept by an old man named Attilano from the town of San Lorenzo Tlacoyucan, a place where he is still remembered, who transmitted it in Nahuatl to Mr.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_04: Clemente Alvarado, an octagenarian from Santa Ana Tlacotenco, who in turn communicated it to Mr.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_04: Jose Gonzalez Rodriguez, a resident of Santa Cruz, Acalpiscan.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_04: And just a shout out to Francisco de la Peña.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: He has a great book.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I believe it's called Children of the Sixth Sun.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a it's an excellent resource for anybody interested in studying the history of the MCRCA and the origins of like this nationalist movement and how it was tied to New Ageism.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's only available in Spanish, as far as I know, but it's a fantastic book.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_04: I highly recommend it.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: The Consigna was first made public in the publication called Izcalot, which was the MCRCA's newsletter.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was later republished in the book Mexicayot by Rodolfo Nievalopes' sister Iskalotzin.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: The authenticity of the consigna has been called into question in recent years by native Nahuatl scholars and speakers who explain that the text reads as if it were originally written in Spanish and then awkwardly translated into Nahuatl despite its dubious origins, the message of the consigna is powerful and resonates with many danzantes and mexicas today.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_04: As one adherent proclaimed, what the grandfather said is that the mandate was preserved for many years in the indigenous communities.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_04: That is, it was preserved with the staffs.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_04: With the fall of Tenochtitlan, the main staff was divided into five staffs and distributed to different communities together with the symbols of command.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_05: That sounds so dumb.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_04: That's what Lakael told me.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_04: And that ultimately each person who received the staff received the mandate.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_04: There are currently many versions, but it is said that the one Nieva Lopez had was the closest and most real.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_04: That is the one that Lakha Elel had.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_04: And indeed the elders of Shochimilko gave it to him.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Just keeping it real, huh?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: This comes from a recent dissertation from 2022 by the scholar Michelle Lacey, L-E-I-S-K-Y, and the name is in Czech.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: She's a a Czech scholar, and uh I'm not even gonna try to pronounce it, but it's basically about the Mexicanidad.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh the original in Spanish.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: So so she um Lacey is over the course of like 10 years, it took her like 10 years to to uh do her dissertation.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: Damn.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and if you look at her sources, she did a lot of um um uh interviews with people with Ansantes in Mexico City, and some of them date back to like 2013, so we're looking at like 10 years, right?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so this one individual that that she quotes, that the one that you just read in English, like this is the the Spanish, she and you know she provides the the Spanish quote at uh in in the note in the footnotes, and and so this is the Spanish for those of you that want to hear the original.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Eso es lo que me decía Tlacaelel, y que, a final de cuentas, cada persona que reciba el bastón recibía la consigna.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: Hay muchas versiones actualmente, pero se dice que la que tenía Nieva López era la versión más cercana y más real.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Entonces es la que tenía Tlacaelel, y efectivamente los ancianos de Xochimilco se la entregan a Tlacaele.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, just with this quote, you have some contradiction because that's not what Nieva Lopez said, right?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we can get into that here in a minute, but just pointing out that there's even among some of the most adherent and fervent um followers of the MCRCA and Yeva and Tlacaele, like they can't even get their story straight, right?
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, listeners of this podcast will recall that we explored the pseudo-historic origins of the Declaration of Guatemok way back in episode four of season one.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're interested in a thorough investigation of the legitimacy of the Declaration, we encourage you to give that episode a listen.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Spoiler alert, it's a bunch of bullshit.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: But despite all the nationalistic pseudo-historical myth making surrounding Quatemok, he remains a powerful symbol of indigenous resistance and is a figure worthy of our respect.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, much respect to Quatemoc.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Presente.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: We we take no issue with Quatemok.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, in fact, we consider him one of our Mexican heroes, just like any proud Mexican uh people who have ethnic um origins and descent and and who follow the tradicion or who are just proud of their heritage, you know, know about Guatemoc, and and so us having that connection to Mexicayor and to Dansa, you know, we have that extra layer of of that connection to Guatemalk.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we have no no beef, right?
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_04: It was he's he could be considered a foundational figure in Chicano identity if you know if you want to think about it that way.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_04: Right just our ideas of indigenity, of who we are as native people, and of resistance.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to make that clear before you know people who haven't listened to the podcast, and this is their first time listening, and and they begin to assume that we're we're bashing Quatemwak.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: We're not.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, if you listen closely, we're taking a critical eye, a critical lens to some of the things that have been uh attributed to him within the last uh you know, you can take it back to the last 150 years because really this idea of Quatemwak as being this national hero that's being you know propped up by by the government and through the the national memory only dates back to the mid you know 19th century, especially, you know, begins to pick up in the late 1860s and into the 1870s.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Not to say that he wasn't remembered before this as a historical figure, yeah, sure, but as like someone to be uh remembered as as an icon, right?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: As a revered figure of uh Mexican heroism.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like that wasn't really a thing up until the middle of the nineteenth century.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_04: And then also, you know, quote then what his history, what we know of it, you know, just what is known of his history is fascinating enough, and it's it it in itself is worthy enough of our attention and of our respect.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't need to be embellished, or we don't need all these bullshit stories made up about him and and all this you know romanticization and mythmaking about who he was.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_04: What he did was enough to warrant our respect, in my opinion.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we don't need to if I can offer a uh you know a caveat to that.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm I'm okay with people making stories about Quatemuk and La Caída de Noshtitla and all that stuff.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: As long as they are honest with themselves and the and the public that this is a um you know, it's it's a it's a fictionalized story based on historical events.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, right?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: Make it clear that that's what you're doing, and I have no issue with it.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Fine.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: Don't try to pass it off as something.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm all about the art.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I just read, you know, I was in the in a play, you know, reading uh a script, right?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I I get it, I understand it.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying, when as a historian, when you try To pass things off as history that have no actual merit and no sources behind it, besides what you heard someone say, and you're making arguments from authority to convey a message and try to justify it, then that's when I have an issue with it.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna ask you, what are your sources?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Provide some sources for me.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_04: Proof, please.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_04: So if you're a new listener to the podcast, I encourage you to go back to the first season and uh, you know, kind of catch up on who this organization is, because we're dropping a lot of names like Rudolfo Nieva Lopez and Juan Luna Cárdenas and Domingo Martinez Paredes, etc.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_04: And if you're interested in knowing a little bit more about who these individuals are, um, I highly encourage you to go back to the first season and sort of just catch up, um, get a little background information on who these individuals were and how they played into this pseudo-historical reinterpretation of Mexican history as it relates to this, you know, Mexican nationalism and this reframing of Mexican identity couched in, you know, the role of the Aztec warrior and and just really focusing on the Mexica, right?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_04: Because this is what came out of that era, and these individuals that we've mentioned had a a large part in uh duplicating, replicating, and and spreading this information to people.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of this is information that you know people in the Dansa community and you know, cult uh quote unquote cultural practitioners follow to this day is based on this uh unfortunately misinformation that was crafted by these individuals.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: And as we go through uh this uh new season, season three, we'll provide a little bit more context for needed or necessary on some of these figures.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, uh we might even um uh later on uh in in the season maybe rehash some of the the old episodes and and provide a little bit of new information.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: So um in case you you haven't made it through the the previous seasons and the previous episodes and you haven't caught up to that point and you're just wanting to sort of listen in to the latest episodes, then we'll we'll we'll try to provide even you know some of the the old uh uh stuff that we've already covered and kind of just present it in in a new light if if necessary, just to get people up to speed because uh it's I mean what we're doing here is it's almost like taking a course in a sense, right?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, imagine yourself taking taking uh uh you know uh a history class, for instance, or uh what have you, and you start it's a 16-week course, and you know, you can't just like sign up in in the middle of it, right?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because you've already missed half the semester.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of what what's going on here.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you really want to get a sense of what's going on with with a lot of the things that we say, I mean, we do have standalone episodes that you don't have to have all this background knowledge on, but a lot of the like for instance in this episode, like you you you do need to sort of go back and and uh familiarize yourself at least to to a very basic degree on some of the some of these things that we're talking about, the movimento confederado, Rodolfo Nieva Lopez, and his role in propagating the consigna or the mandate or the nahuatliyamat.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it goes by different names, right?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like the decoration, uh what have you.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's and for those of you that don't know it, do you you do you want to kind of uh recite it real quick, the the first couple of verses, so that people can understand what what you're what you're talking about, what we're talking about, the the consigna.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have it there with you off the top of your head?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: There was a time when Curly could just recite it on command.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: There was, but with old age.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: I would say Curly, la consigna, and then he would just like step up.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: Step up, just start speaking.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and and you would do it in the slam poetry style, your favorite.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: I would that is my favorite.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if you know that, but I'm a big fan of slam poetry, especially Chicano slam poetry.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's the best.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_04: The best.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, like organizations like the MCRCA, um, I'm still, and I shouldn't be, but I still get taken off guard, a little surprised when I meet Dan Santes who have never heard of the MCRCA, have never heard of Rodolfo Nieva Lopez, who have never heard of Juan Luna Cárdenas, and I'm like, well, all of these things you're like, not all, but a lot of these things that you're repeating come from these guys.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_04: You know, how do you not know about them?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it makes me wonder like, do their danza captains even know who these guys are?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_04: They probably don't even know themselves.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, it's it's a little uh unsettling.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's disappointing, I think, is a better word.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what makes it even more disappointing?
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: It this is coming from a set of people who often privilege the oral tradition, right?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: More so than the written word.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, you know, if you privilege the oral tradition, then someone should have orally have told you where some of this stuff that you're following comes from.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: And but I think what happens a lot of the times, and I and we've touched on this before, is that some of this information gets filtered through the Mechicayot lens, and so instead of Rodolfo Nieva Lopez being the person who first presents the consigna, it becomes like you know, the uh the council of elders or no, not even that secret council somewhere.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: Secret council, no, but even before I knew of the secret council, like what I would the way that I understood that the consigna having been made public was that just someone some somewhere in in some community, right, in in a remote part of Mexico that had you know kept the tradition, you know, uh and they had been given this this like like like the quote says, right, they kind of go through this litany uh and of of names of who who said it to whom, and and that's great, but I would never hear any names.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like none none of these Atilano, like all this was like new to me when I finally decided to like dig into it.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: But in the tradicion, no one ever told me any of this.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's always in a very superficial way of elder, right?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: Some unnamed elder somewhere from back in the day told it to the person that we are learning from now, and they had learned it from someone.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and that was as far back as it went.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: It would just go back to the immediate elder that you are under at that moment.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_04: And they learned it from somewhere, and that it had been passed mouth to ear, mouth to ear, mouth to earn over hundreds of years.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_04: Hundred yeah, five hundred years.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_04: But somehow had managed to remain exactly intact, right?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like perfectly intact and nothing missing.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_04: Let me redeem myself, by the way.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_04: Our day now is hidden.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_04: Our day has disappeared, and in a completely dark place it has left us.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_04: We do not know that it comes once more, that it will come out this way once more and newly eliminate us.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_04: There it is in the land of the dead.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_04: It will extend.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_04: And just quickly we will reunite.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_04: Will we we will become near to one another?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's pretty long.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want to go through the whole thing.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's a different one.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know that version.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's it's uh it's actually this is the direct translation that that Magnus did for me.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds like the one that Magnus did.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't sound like the the one that's uh Yeah, yeah, the the original one is like We will rise.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's like our sun has hidden, our sun has has gone away and in and descended into darkness, it has left us, but we know it will return once more, right?
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: Is like And the message is great, right?
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean we've talked about this before, right?
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: When we did that episode, that's a great message.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of resistance, inspiring.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, during the Chicano movement when they picked up danza and the tradicion, it it resonated because Chicanos were an oppressed people here in the United States, and we still continue to be to a degree, not as much as we were before.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: You can make the argument that we still are, but I mean I would say that we've made some progress over the years.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: A little bit, but you know, like it did resonate with with the raza, with with the chicanara here, because it was it was a message of reclaiming your identity, reclaiming your traditions, reclaiming also the your land, right?
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: Back when the idea of Astlan, the Chicano homeland, was was still kind of fresh and new and in people's minds, and a goal to kind of work towards um in the Chicano movement.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_04: And it even appears in the um, I believe I gave you a copy of it that uh the newspaper La Cucaracha from the Varium from the Dog Patch.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_04: The the consigna is in there, and uh and it's it's connected to a story written about Tlakael.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_04: So isn't he in there?
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh the Yeah, there's ay did an interview.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right, right.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's very interesting.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_04: Although I have a question about um how you feel about this, because you in in the in this episode we say that Ulalia Guzmán was the first female Mexican archaeologist, but can it be said that Celia Nutal was the first female Mexican archaeologist, even though she was of European descent, or would it be fair to say Ulalia Guzmán was the first ethnic Mexican female archaeologist?
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so so Celia Nutal was Maybe I'm being pedantic.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: Was she was she born in Mexico?
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I believe she was.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: She was and she was raised in Mexico too, right?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think when when when people because I'm not the one that's saying, I mean, uh this is what is commonly like like people when they refer to her, that's how they refer.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just following what others have said about her.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I've seen it before.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um I've seen it before.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're right.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you could make the case that Selena Tal is the first quote unquote Mexican if you're looking at it from a national sense in terms of like your national identity.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she was the first female Mexican um you know anthropologist.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but if you're looking at it from an ethnic uh sense, then yeah, it would be Eulalia.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: She would be the first ethnic Mexican anthropologist.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_04: And and I've always wondered, and I I think it's you know, I don't know, one way or another, but I suspect that she probably went to her grave thinking that she had actually discovered the bones of Quatdemok.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that would be that would be interesting to to find out.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_04: Well, interestingly enough, and I've always been hesitant to uh to talk about this on the podcast.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like I I talk to people about it in private because I think it's cool because you know, doing the research of my family and um going back through records, marriage records and stuff.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_04: But um uh Leonor Valderrama de Mote Kusoma is uh my thirteenth great grandmother.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that's pretty I don't know.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_04: I just think it's neat.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: It is neat, it is neat.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you might you might be uh related to Quatemuk.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean somehow, right?
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_04: Like he was an uncle or something, like a great uncle way back in the day.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_04: But uh yeah, so that's my 13th great grandmother.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, I don't know.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_04: I just think it's pretty cool.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_04: I told somebody that and they were like, that's badass, bro.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_04: So does like do you get uh primer palavra now in the pansa?
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like yo, do you remember back in the MES days, the Michigago Society days in the the forum?
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: Do you remember this one time there was some fool from um if I'm not mistaken, they were either from Spain or they were from Mexico but claimed Spanish ancestry or something, and uh they were saying that that they were a direct descendant of uh I want to say Moctezuma, and they they were trying to say that that you know that they had the right to claim the throne of Mexico or something.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: You remember that?
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was some weird argument they were trying to make.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, what?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like you're stupid.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, and if you go back, you know, Mocte Suma probably has a lot of descendants.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the dude had over a hundred, you know, uh concubines or what whatever the word for it was, you know.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_04: So a lot of us can trace our um our uh our ancestry back to um Mocte Suma.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_02: But um it's kind of like the great Khan, right?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and a lot of people can trace their their ancestry to Genghis Khan.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_04: But our our friend, uh our good friend and friend of the podcast, uh Luis Herran, when I told him this, he was like tu pinche abuelito.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: That fool.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_04: Well man, it's it's uh it's good to be back.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: It is it's been it's been too long.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, I don't know, do you want to say this now or or should we want to wait about just to remind people when the seasons start?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah, yeah, because we get a lot of emails.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_04: I get a lot of emails asking when the new season, uh you know, the new episodes are gonna drop.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_04: And the way that we plan it is that each season begins with the observed spring equinox, which marks the the the binding of the Mexica year or the bundling of the year and the birth of the new year, right?
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_04: So that's when we try to time out each season to start with.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_04: So all of our concerned fans out there, worry not.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_04: We are back, and we ain't going nowhere.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_04: Nowheres And remember, the truth, well it's like medicine, my brother.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_04: And you know what I say about the truth.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_04: What's that, homeboy?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't always taste good.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_04: But it's always good for you.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_04: Good bones, too.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for listening to Tales from Osidlandis, a project of the Gemali Institute of Mesoamerican Art.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_04: If you enjoy the show, please consider becoming a Patreon supporter.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_04: You can do this by visiting TalesFromositlandis.com and clicking Support the Podcast.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_04: Your continued support will help keep the podcast ad free and independent.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_04: Until next time, Demoy Does it.