Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 293. Transitioning to A2L Refrigerants with Danilo Gualbino

Transcript

Episode 293. Transitioning to A2L Refrigerants with Danilo Gualbino · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker: I wanna take a minute to talk about what refrigeration mentor training is all about. We are all about helping contractors increase profit. We help end users reduce bottom line costs and really helping technicians make more money. And our mission is to empower those contractors and technicians by equipping them with the really the skills that they need and the knowledge that they need for success.
• 0:01
  Speaker: I wanna take a minute to talk about what refrigeration mentor training is all about. We are all about helping contractors increase profit. We help end users reduce bottom line costs and really helping technicians make more money. And our mission is to empower those contractors and technicians by equipping them with the really the skills that they need and the knowledge that they need for success.
• 0:01
  And what we do is we help contractors. By building customized training packages that work for their technicians, that work for their busy schedule to advance their skills in gauging them in continuing education and testing them. All these programs that we really do is really by the hands on approach, getting them to go out there and do.
• 0:01
  The field works so they get tangible results and we are committed to getting you the results you're looking for. All our programs are online drip model, so I can meet, which the technicians or the refrigeration professional, I can coach them, I can mentor them, and our team of professional really want to take your business to the next level.
• 0:01
  So if you're a service manager, business owner, or a technician, reach out. Head to refrigeration mentor.com or check out in the show notes. There's a book, a call link, and it doesn't matter where you're at in the world. We can help develop a program that's gonna help you and your business be more profitable in the commercial refrigeration and an eight fact industry.
• 0:02
  So if you're a service manager, business owner, or a technician, reach out. Head to refrigeration mentor.com or check out in the show notes. There's a book, a call link, and it doesn't matter where you're at in the world. We can help develop a program that's gonna help you and your business be more profitable in the commercial refrigeration and an eight fact industry.
• 0:02
  Now let's get a conversation going.
• 0:02
  I. Trevor: Welcome to the 2025 a HR Expo. I'm here with my good friend Danielo. We go back from the Copeland days when we worked out years and years ago, and that's where we first met. Yeah. And then now we, we've transitioned into different roles and learning and growing, but our passions, refrigeration.
• 0:02
  And I'm super excited to talk to to all of you today because we're gonna be diving into a two Ls and how technicians can work with a two Ls 'cause we're gonna continue to see more and more of this. But I'd love to hear about what's going on with you, Danielle, before we get kicked off.
• 0:02
  Danilo: Perfect. I remember working with you and and the Copeland. Yeah. And very good technicians and knowledge and prepare for my skills. Of course transition for these capabilities in the Copeland. For another companies I work in, in another refrigeration company dams. Natural, natural refrigerants. Ammonia.
• 0:03
  I remember working with you and and the Copeland. Yeah. And very good technicians and knowledge and prepare for my skills. Of course transition for these capabilities in the Copeland. For another companies I work in, in another refrigeration company dams. Natural, natural refrigerants. Ammonia.
• 0:03
  Yeah, because in my start work in the Roy, the name is next, Roy is York, and the next Johnson LaRose are working, are working a lot. For natural Ts and now I working with Honeywell, with Ts a l Yeah. Or HFC. And in this position, I have my, my responsible for sales in, in latam. Yeah. But try to, to working with customers with new technology or new transitions or another possibilities because.
• 0:03
  I know, I understand a little bit. I think the Indus industry refrigeration and natural refrigerants, we've tried to apply this experiencing for a ls. Yeah.
• 0:03
  Trevor: And that's one of the big things we even talked about when we worked at Cobos. How do we help the technicians out, you know, and make it easier for their transition with new technologies.
• 0:04
  Trevor: And that's one of the big things we even talked about when we worked at Cobos. How do we help the technicians out, you know, and make it easier for their transition with new technologies.
• 0:04
  Like when we used to talk about the digital compressors and the variable speeds. Now we're transitioning into new refrigerants. And this is not new. This is a, you know, we did the four oh, third 22, then the 4 0 4, the 4 0 10. This is just another transition. But there's a lot to a lot of people that have been putting fear it seems like into it because you got a threes, which is R two 90, and then you got a two Ls, which they say is mildly flammable.
• 0:04
  I just call it flammable. It doesn't matter to me. It's. But so is 4 0 4. Like I've seen big flames of 4 0 4 shootout or four 10 because they can ignite as well. So a lot of people don't think that, okay, well I'm using an HFC, it's not flammable. Well, it can, can't ignite, you know. Same with POE oil, it catches on on fire.
• 0:04
  I've seen it many, many times or, and ignite. So I, I really. Really want to focus and help the technicians out there, especially in my training programs about what a two L's all about. Since you transitioned over and started to learn about a two Ls, what are some of the, the big things that you took away that you share with technicians on a two Ls today?
• 0:05
  I've seen it many, many times or, and ignite. So I, I really. Really want to focus and help the technicians out there, especially in my training programs about what a two L's all about. Since you transitioned over and started to learn about a two Ls, what are some of the, the big things that you took away that you share with technicians on a two Ls today?
• 0:05
  Danilo: Perfect. I think the, the rules or standards have today for HL. Is a part of the, the game to understand for the change or transition for this, this refrigerants, because imagine in USA or Europe apply for the standards. But in my culture, for example, Brazil, try to, to have a our standards but don't have your standards.
• 0:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Danilo: Try to copy. Copy part of Europe or copy or American standards. Okay. But the, but this, this time you need to understand for the, who's according the standards in the globally, for a to hour a, A three. Yeah. Is a charge or the CAPA capacity to charge. It's not so open to apply, for example, 100 kilograms.
• 0:06
  Danilo: Try to copy. Copy part of Europe or copy or American standards. Okay. But the, but this, this time you need to understand for the, who's according the standards in the globally, for a to hour a, A three. Yeah. Is a charge or the CAPA capacity to charge. It's not so open to apply, for example, 100 kilograms.
• 0:06
  For, for in the system, you need to apply a architecture in this game. You need to show the pressure. You need to show the architecture or standards you need to apply. The equipment is outside, inside. In front of the manufacturers or the in, in case of the manufacturer, the manufacturers like to train or not, don't have training.
• 0:06
  Much more common in US guys or Europa guys have a trainees, but in LA is not so common. The guys have a trainee a lot. The idea is try to put this transition training for the guys for the next level to, understand for not only retrofits understand for new equipments.
• 0:06
  Trevor: Yeah, and this is something I talk about in all our refrigeration training programs is really that okay, it is a, a new refrigerant and it can be anything.
• 0:07
  Trevor: Yeah, and this is something I talk about in all our refrigeration training programs is really that okay, it is a, a new refrigerant and it can be anything.
• 0:07
  It can be an A two L, it can be an E three, it can be a natural. But if you were doing the process correct from day one, there is not much difference. That's the big thing, like, so the standards, and here in like in Canada anyway, we have an apprenticeship program, so we're supposed to go through a step on how to install properly, like cut out equipment.
• 0:07
  Instead of un it. And that's a big no-no with a threes and a a two Ls or any flammable refrigerant. You want to cut it out or make sure you purge it. And I think the big step here is, 'cause I have people from all over the world that I talk to, and they're like, okay, we're, we're transitioning to these newer flammable refrigerants or Miley flammable, low flammable, what any, whatever anyone wants to call.
• 0:07
  But what they're worried about is the people who are, have not been trained. In the proper ways of doing it, pulling in evacuation probably. What are, what are some of the things that you are training technicians and manufacturers in south America on the keys to being the keys to successfully implementing an A two L?
• 0:08
  But what they're worried about is the people who are, have not been trained. In the proper ways of doing it, pulling in evacuation probably. What are, what are some of the things that you are training technicians and manufacturers in south America on the keys to being the keys to successfully implementing an A two L?
• 0:08
  Danilo: Perfect. In this transition we started for the globally companies, for example, the globally companies starts to this transition more fast. For example, big companies in Brazil, like for apply for low GWP. Mm-hmm. And invite for OEMs to apply for this low GWP. And of course, this OEM invite for the suppliers in this case invite for the honey to supply for the refrigerants, but for the technicians.
• 0:08
  Guys need to understand for the hands-on. Not only equipment or represent, need to understand for the position, for the equipment to install, understand for the whos, for the, of course, in case of the fire or what do you need to be implement for the security or what is the fire guys in the depend of the the, the countries.
• 0:09
  Guys need to understand for the hands-on. Not only equipment or represent, need to understand for the position, for the equipment to install, understand for the whos, for the, of course, in case of the fire or what do you need to be implement for the security or what is the fire guys in the depend of the the, the countries.
• 0:09
  Yeah. Need to train too.
• 0:09
  Trevor: Yeah.
• 0:09
  Danilo: And. And maintenance guys or wherever of all the team implement for this project or this location need to, to train because it is, it's easy to apply. It is the same equipment, the same pipings, the same whatever. Yeah. But new hills. Yeah. New standards for the, the, the explosion guy gas or explosion or low low explosion.
• 0:09
  Yeah. To apply the, the, the security for this this time.
• 0:09
  Trevor: Yeah. And I think that's a big thing. I was talking with my friends in New Zealand and they got a big push to go to more of the low GWP refrigerants and the naturals. And one of the big things is, is that the regulations there have is the only way, which they don't have a lot of regulations at this point for these new low GBWP or our naturals. And what we're seeing is that the refrigerant price for HFCs, like four tens or four oh fours are so expensive for the end user that they have to move to something anyway, because they can't afford the, those refrigerant.
• 0:10
  Trevor: Yeah. And I think that's a big thing. I was talking with my friends in New Zealand and they got a big push to go to more of the low GWP refrigerants and the naturals. And one of the big things is, is that the regulations there have is the only way, which they don't have a lot of regulations at this point for these new low GBWP or our naturals. And what we're seeing is that the refrigerant price for HFCs, like four tens or four oh fours are so expensive for the end user that they have to move to something anyway, because they can't afford the, those refrigerant.
• 0:10
  What are your thoughts for contractors on. Doing that transition with the end user, like how can they be more involved and help co help that end user with that transition? What are some of the things the contractor can do with the end user?
• 0:10
  Danilo: We try to start for retrofits. Yep. For example, is much more easy because you need, in Latin case at, at this moment, LA use a po mineral oil for R 22.
• 0:10
  Yeah. You need to change the oil for POE or ts. Yeah. Need to clean a system. It's not so easy for the guys understand, for the clean because the product you start to clean in the system is not approval more. Yeah. One for one B is not approved. You need to implement and all flushing in the system to, to clean in system and try to convince this guy.
• 0:11
  Yeah. You need to change the oil for POE or ts. Yeah. Need to clean a system. It's not so easy for the guys understand, for the clean because the product you start to clean in the system is not approval more. Yeah. One for one B is not approved. You need to implement and all flushing in the system to, to clean in system and try to convince this guy.
• 0:11
  Use for a one gas for retrofit 4, 4, 8, or 4, 4 9 Yeah. Is much more easy to change. Yep. Is the first step. Yeah. Now another possibility. Okay. Now I understand for retrofit, now I need to implement for a well, or a three, for example. Yep. Need to change the equipment. Need to change the architecture. Yeah. Is the, your equipment is distributor.
• 0:11
  Or location use the hoof top used for condensing unit to use the water war architecture for the system.
• 0:11
  Trevor: And that's exactly what I tell them too, is that it 4, 4 8, 4 4 9, the retrofit. 'cause even in Canada, you can still do those retrofits. Here in the US they're starting to, with the AIMS act and stuff, it, it's gonna be stringent rules 'cause they're down to 150 GWP, which 4, 4, 8, 4 4 9 are not.
• 0:12
  Trevor: And that's exactly what I tell them too, is that it 4, 4 8, 4 4 9, the retrofit. 'cause even in Canada, you can still do those retrofits. Here in the US they're starting to, with the AIMS act and stuff, it, it's gonna be stringent rules 'cause they're down to 150 GWP, which 4, 4, 8, 4 4 9 are not.
• 0:12
  And, but when you're going to an A two L or an A three or even a natural. It's a new, it's a new install. There's no retrofit about it. So that's a really good point. Because over the, the last 20 or 30 years, every time there was a refrigerant change, 'cause there's been a lot of them already. This is not new.
• 0:12
  Is that, that you could retrofit. There's always a gas you can retrofit, but we're at a, a point in refrige the refrigeration industry, you can't retrofit to the new gases. And, and that, and that's something that's new. Something that's new.
• 0:12
  Danilo: Yeah. Another key. A message according to this transition is a glide for the refrigerants.
• 0:12
  Okay. Because you imagine you design for the system, the designer guy. Okay. In this point understand for bubble point or dewpoint. Yeah. Okay. But in the, in the field is very different because the, the guys much more common. Use only one at Dew Point or all the time. But imagine it in the condenser part. You, I use the bubble or the, the, the dewpoint in the evaporator side.
• 0:13
  Okay. Because you imagine you design for the system, the designer guy. Okay. In this point understand for bubble point or dewpoint. Yeah. Okay. But in the, in the field is very different because the, the guys much more common. Use only one at Dew Point or all the time. But imagine it in the condenser part. You, I use the bubble or the, the, the dewpoint in the evaporator side.
• 0:13
  The low temperature side use it y in the retrofit gas or low GWP gas have a lot of issues. According to Glide is a big glides, not so big glides what to use this. It and the maintenance guys or designing guys need to understand the this difference.
• 0:13
  Trevor: That's a good point. 'cause I know 4, 4, 8 4 4 9, they have big gl.
• 0:13
  Exactly 4 0 7 C. There's a few other ones too. They have big lights. When we go into these, the A two Ls, are there a big glide on those ones? We should talk about a couple of the refrigerate refrigerants as well. But is there a big glide in them? And what actually, first, what are a few of the, the refrigerant's names?
• 0:13
  So like for refrigeration, which ones do you guys offer for a two Ls For four 50 fives.
• 0:14
  So like for refrigeration, which ones do you guys offer for a two Ls For four 50 fives.
• 0:14
  Danilo: Series four. Yes. It start for four. It starting with four to have a big lights because the, the mix of the refrigerants have a lot of parts of the pressure or the products. Yeah. High, high glides in the, in the system.
• 0:14
  The five is much more common. Have a one gas, for example, 5 1 3 is a change for 1 3, 4 A. Yep. And a one is very to ease and another very good solutions. I think eight VAC system is a 5 1, 5 B because I have a, a 2 9, 9 GW p. It's a low 305 1 5 B. Okay. Okay. It is a very good solution to low GWP more than 4 5 4 B
• 0:14
  Trevor: four Danilo: five.
• 0:14
  4 5, 4 B. Have a six, six something. Yeah, six something. Gw, PGWP, but depend of the, the type of the project I I, I see for the ture for 5 1, 5 B. In the, the data centers' application. Okay. But now I, I see there are another OEMs apply these in, in and water. In chillers. At chillers. In chillers, yeah. Okay.
• 0:15
  4 5, 4 B. Have a six, six something. Yeah, six something. Gw, PGWP, but depend of the, the type of the project I I, I see for the ture for 5 1, 5 B. In the, the data centers' application. Okay. But now I, I see there are another OEMs apply these in, in and water. In chillers. At chillers. In chillers, yeah. Okay.
• 0:15
  Trevor: And so that's for, yeah, more the data center chiller.
• 0:15
  Which ones do you have now for the refrigeration application? 'cause I'm refrigeration, you know what I mean? So I'm, I'm a little biased. So what refrigerants now for a two Ls do you have for refrigeration?
• 0:15
  Danilo: I. I have the two possibilities. A median temporary, or a in and low temporary.
• 0:15
  Trevor: That's a, that's a good point because you might have different refrigerants for the different temperatures, right?
• 0:15
  Yeah. For the sssts, because now you have multiple refrigerant blends in these new, new low GWP refrigerants. Perfect. So I'd love to hear I'd love to hear more on that.
• 0:15
  Danilo: Yeah. In the very good solution for low temporary and mid temporary, you try to use a a 4 5, 5 A or 4 5, 4 C is this two possibility to apply in median and low tary, for example.
• 0:16
  Danilo: Yeah. In the very good solution for low temporary and mid temporary, you try to use a a 4 5, 5 A or 4 5, 4 C is this two possibility to apply in median and low tary, for example.
• 0:16
  And in latam it's very common to to use, for example, cascade system for CO2 in the high pressure sites. It's very common to use 1 3 4 A in high sight. Yep. And now the guys need to change for 5 1 3 A for this. Yep. Retrofit too. Okay. It is a very good position. Have another possibilities to use, but need to change for the equipments, or need to change the, the diameters to pipings is a very, it's much more hard Yeah.
• 0:16
  To, to. This transition? No. Imagining the guy in the supermarket system need to close the door and implementing new equipment. He's very, in this case, we have a very problem in the the customer hands. You need to implement the equipment more fast because. Days closets is, they don't, don't have money for your customer.
• 0:17
  To, to. This transition? No. Imagining the guy in the supermarket system need to close the door and implementing new equipment. He's very, in this case, we have a very problem in the the customer hands. You need to implement the equipment more fast because. Days closets is, they don't, don't have money for your customer.
• 0:17
  Trevor: Yeah, that's right. So, and that's why I talk to a ton of retailers from all over the world, and they're, they're like, they don't want any downtime, zero downtime, but switching to naturals, switching to a two Ls there, there's downtime, like in or sections of the store. Often they, they know that that's, that's cost them money.
• 0:17
  So it's, it's a tough balance with the contractors and technicians and the, the retails. 'cause I've seen this, I've been in the field and I've seen a lot of that as well. What are your thoughts on seeing the cascades? I really think there's gonna, that's gonna grow over the next few years where you'll have a three A two L on the top side, some sort of natural or low GWP refrigerant and then CO2 pump systems going in.
• 0:17
  What are your thoughts on, on those types of systems? Will you see more of them and what refrigerant, you said 5 1 3 B, what may be one option? What other options will there be? 5 1 3
• 0:17
  Danilo: Yep. Is another options for the high site. It, is it possible to apply in, in, in hindsight to 4, 5, 4 B,
• 0:18
  Danilo: Yep. Is another options for the high site. It, is it possible to apply in, in, in hindsight to 4, 5, 4 B,
• 0:18
  Trevor: 4 5, 4 B? Danilo: I think it's need to, to understand more the standard or rules the type of equipment need to apply for GWP.
• 0:18
  Yeah. For example, I, I understand the California and US or states of in US have a, a not similar GWP to apply in the. In the same systems. Yeah, of course. Go to this for another countries. Yeah. Okay. I, I think it's a, a issue for, to the designer guys need to understand.
• 0:18
  Trevor: I know. And, and that's a big thing.
• 0:18
  We do a CO2 design course, and I've designers from all over the world, and we talk about this because they're, they're not only designing for CO2 system, they're not, right now, they're designing for other refrigerants. And they're like, it all depends And 'cause they're Glo, some of them are global. It's like, so I'm in this country.
• 0:18
  The regulations are a little bit different than this country. Than this country, you know? And at the end of the day, you want to help your customer out the best they can. But there are certain refrigerants that's just not the solution. You know, it it exactly depending on the location and the am and it's really cool learning about design.
• 0:19
  The regulations are a little bit different than this country. Than this country, you know? And at the end of the day, you want to help your customer out the best they can. But there are certain refrigerants that's just not the solution. You know, it it exactly depending on the location and the am and it's really cool learning about design.
• 0:19
  'cause my background was a technician. Now that I'm starting to learn design and talking to these designers, you gotta come up with different options for that customer and at different location. 'cause even like in Canada right now, our regulations are not as stringent as what the A AIMS act or the FGA regulations in Europe F are at this point.
• 0:19
  And we're still at the, our older regulation points. I know they met a few times and they're meeting the changes of regulations and update them, but at this point we still can use 4 4 8 4 4 9 for retrofits, for an example. And and different, different high GWP gases.
• 0:19
  Danilo: Exactly. Exactly. But imagine it for, for example, I think the guys imagine, okay, I try to apply.
• 0:19
  CO2 is very easy to apply. For example, it's not, it's not so easy because depend of the architecture, for example, in CO2. You need to apply for parallel pressure ejector in liquid vapor VFD in compressor. Yeah. Yes or not gas cooler at the ABBA system. Depend off the architecture. Depend off the country.
• 0:20
  CO2 is very easy to apply. For example, it's not, it's not so easy because depend of the architecture, for example, in CO2. You need to apply for parallel pressure ejector in liquid vapor VFD in compressor. Yeah. Yes or not gas cooler at the ABBA system. Depend off the architecture. Depend off the country.
• 0:20
  Depend off the design.
• 0:20
  Trevor: Yeah. Yeah.
• 0:20
  Danilo: Now try to, to transfer this solution for. A 12 a three or HFC. We have a lot of types of system equipment in, for example, compressors. You have a AME piston compressor, screw compressor, centrifugal compressor screw compressor. Yeah. You have a lot of types of compressor to apply the same refrigerants you, you like or need.
• 0:20
  For example, the. EER or co COP. Yep. In the system, you need environment, you need more safety. What do you need or you need to balance for all these issues in the same project. The, the, for your define for this project is very difficult for the first moment. Now you'd need to transfer these atory issues for the maintenance guys.
• 0:21
  For example, the. EER or co COP. Yep. In the system, you need environment, you need more safety. What do you need or you need to balance for all these issues in the same project. The, the, for your define for this project is very difficult for the first moment. Now you'd need to transfer these atory issues for the maintenance guys.
• 0:21
  Yeah. According, or OEM have and several countries. One year for the warrant. Yeah. After one year. This warrant for the, your customer or the maintenance guys. Yeah. And, and I think the, the good way is training. Training and
• 0:21
  Trevor: training. I love it. Yeah. No, and I totally agree with that. Like I'm training thousands and thousands of check technicians all over the world, and when they come in, they're like, well, is it going all CO2 or is it going to all propane, or is it all going to a two?
• 0:21
  It depends. You know what I mean? Then I hear, oh, what's more efficient? Like, is CO2 more efficient or propane more efficient or, or is a two l at the end of the day when I'm working with the technicians, it, it doesn't matter what's more efficient or not efficient. You can make systems super efficient, but that will cost a lot more.
• 0:21
  But it doesn't matter if the system super efficient, if you have no one who can work on the equipment, it doesn't really that you can have the best or most efficient system in the world. But if they can't fix that. You can't run a system. You can't run a store. And so I like what you said there, training, training, training.
• 0:22
  But it doesn't matter if the system super efficient, if you have no one who can work on the equipment, it doesn't really that you can have the best or most efficient system in the world. But if they can't fix that. You can't run a system. You can't run a store. And so I like what you said there, training, training, training.
• 0:22
  That's what we talk about consistently at refrigeration. Mentor. What are some of the things some of the successes you've seen with some of your customers with A two Ls? Because I know I, I've deal with a lot of people in Europe and they got a lot of A two L systems there. And the technicians, it just, they've been working with CO2, they were working with low GWP, and it just like is normal to them.
• 0:22
  'cause they've been working on so long. What do you think is gonna be some of the biggest transitions, especially in South America? And I think, I know it's gonna be, is gonna be on training, but what do you think some of the things that they can start doing today to really get through this, this section, because all it is is gonna be a blip of time.
• 0:22
  The, you know, this training cycle after they start working one, it was like, 2 90, 10 years ago. I know guys are like, I've been working on this for 10 years, but I talk with guys that are working on it today, like, I don't wanna touch it. Know what, what is that thing that you're gonna talk to, to the technicians and the contractors about training?
• 0:23
  The, you know, this training cycle after they start working one, it was like, 2 90, 10 years ago. I know guys are like, I've been working on this for 10 years, but I talk with guys that are working on it today, like, I don't wanna touch it. Know what, what is that thing that you're gonna talk to, to the technicians and the contractors about training?
• 0:23
  What do you, what do you wanna get across to them?
• 0:23
  Danilo: Now I, I have a su case to, to, to talking about in the latam, for example, you exactly start to talking for H 12. Okay, the guys okay? Oh, it's very difficult. It is dangerous. It is not safe. It okay. Need to a big company start for this project. For example, in Brazil, I have six Sixes, SUSE's, case for 1, 3, 4, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4.
• 0:23
  Ce.
• 0:23
  Speaker 5: Yep. Danilo: 5 1, 3 A. And 1, 2, 3. Three. Zd. I have a lot of a l now at this moment, implemented in for this projects. And Chile, for example, have a, a big supermarket guy have a HL in the system. 4 5 5 a implement in nine stores. Well, okay, there's a big issue to, to transfer for this, but for the convinced this customer I need to implement.
• 0:24
  Danilo: 5 1, 3 A. And 1, 2, 3. Three. Zd. I have a lot of a l now at this moment, implemented in for this projects. And Chile, for example, have a, a big supermarket guy have a HL in the system. 4 5 5 a implement in nine stores. Well, okay, there's a big issue to, to transfer for this, but for the convinced this customer I need to implement.
• 0:24
  Train for the engineer guys. Yep. Convince the end user. Train for the end user. Participated to startup for the equipment and train the guys in Yeah. During the startups and train after the startup guys for these new, new products or new transitions. Okay. But I understand the, the good way is. Train for understand more and not relaxed it, but understand for your apply nor apply to apply Yeah.
• 0:24
  Understand. To apply and what, what to need to apply this.
• 0:24
  Trevor: Yeah. I just, at the HVAC symposium event, and we did, I did a talk on taking the fear of the CO2 and low GWP refrigerant and one of the things is half the people in there that was in, sitting in there, they were already working on. A threes and a twos and CO2.
• 0:25
  Trevor: Yeah. I just, at the HVAC symposium event, and we did, I did a talk on taking the fear of the CO2 and low GWP refrigerant and one of the things is half the people in there that was in, sitting in there, they were already working on. A threes and a twos and CO2.
• 0:25
  And were they, they were, are they fearful of certain things? They're fearful that the people that they work with have not been trained yet. And when you first see something new, it's like anything driving a car. The first time you drive a car, you're a little bit fearful, you know what I mean? But you drive a little bit more and you be a little bit longer and it gets easier and easier and, but you're trained, you know, you gotta, in Canada, you have to get, maybe it's not all everywhere around the world, but you gotta go to driver's ed.
• 0:25
  So someone has to teach you. How to drive properly and you know, how, how to navigate the road. And I think it's the same thing when refrigeration, what we're doing now, you know, especially what I do on a daily basis, is that that training like you're doing to educate these, the technicians on, on the proper way to do it, it's not much different than it was, I did it 20 years ago when I was in the field.
• 0:25
  You know, proper purging practice, evacuation practice, not using your torch to, to unsweet stuff. Wow. These are the things that, that we know, but. Not everybody knows that, you know, and I think the, I think the more that we share, the easier it's gonna get. Let's talk a little bit about mitigation practices.
• 0:26
  You know, proper purging practice, evacuation practice, not using your torch to, to unsweet stuff. Wow. These are the things that, that we know, but. Not everybody knows that, you know, and I think the, I think the more that we share, the easier it's gonna get. Let's talk a little bit about mitigation practices.
• 0:26
  I, I know here there's different rules. M1, M two, M three, we're not gonna dive in too deep on that, but depending on the size of the charge for an A two L refrigerant, there may be leak mitigation rules. Do you know much on leak mitigation? Yeah. Do you wanna talk a little bit about what you've seen or, and 'cause the supermarket that you're working with, do they have any leak mitigation at their store?
• 0:26
  If they have to implement that?
• 0:26
  Danilo: Yes. In this case the guys try to implement, of course, we, we in, we don't have much more materials or education for the, the explosion gas or everything. I have a material but don't have this material translator for. Portuguese or Spanish, for example. You need to transfer your SKUs or your experience for the customer.
• 0:26
  For example, you need the fort I in front of the equipment or convince the four D customer use a pump to vacuum in the system. Yeah. For, prepare for h Well, yeah, prepare for H three because the guy What is the, the pump you use now? Oh, the same pump I use for HFC? No, it's not possible because this motor is not to apply it to h Well, okay.
• 0:27
  For example, you need the fort I in front of the equipment or convince the four D customer use a pump to vacuum in the system. Yeah. For, prepare for h Well, yeah, prepare for H three because the guy What is the, the pump you use now? Oh, the same pump I use for HFC? No, it's not possible because this motor is not to apply it to h Well, okay.
• 0:27
  In another do, do you have a, a sensors for HOL in your equipment or in the place of the equipment style? No. You need to apply that. Yeah, because for the. For example, Ian 3, 7, 8 chapter, whatever, have this information or EAC or whatever have this information. The guys don't understand the accordingly rules you need all the time to he flex or he fresh for this education for this guy.
• 0:27
  Yeah. And the part of, for me, the part of this mitigation. The key message in education?
• 0:28
  Yeah. And the part of, for me, the part of this mitigation. The key message in education?
• 0:28
  Trevor: Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. Safety and education. And the what I've seen too, working with the different contractors in, in Canada anyway, like I've been doing leak detection 20 years ago. It's not, it's not new, it's now, it's just different.
• 0:28
  Now it's mandatory that, okay, that we want to catch this, this leak. If there is a leak, we shut down the system. And we shouldn't have leaks anyway. We don't want to have leaks. That's the whole why we're, we're in this thing of changing all these refrigerants. If we never had any leaks, we wouldn't be, we'd probably still be on our 12, you know what I mean?
• 0:28
  But leaks do happen. It is just, we're, we're not gonna ever get rid of that. Even the best installations can have, have a, have a leak on it. But I think having technicians understand the training and the education different states, different provinces, different countries are gonna have different codes.
• 0:28
  Exactly. I'm always trying to help people or technicians from around the world. Okay. What is the, the most stringent code you heard? Is it, you know, is it from the fga s it's the AIMS Act? Or is your country regulations learn about what they are? Like, how do you bring those safety practices and training practices into your country?
• 0:29
  Exactly. I'm always trying to help people or technicians from around the world. Okay. What is the, the most stringent code you heard? Is it, you know, is it from the fga s it's the AIMS Act? Or is your country regulations learn about what they are? Like, how do you bring those safety practices and training practices into your country?
• 0:29
  You know, how do you, how are you able to do it safely and, and and correctly so you don't get hurt on a job? Because once again, we want to go to work, do a great job as a technician, and then come home to see your family, you know, so. Exactly. It's very, very important. So Danielle, I wanna thank you for taking the time to chat with me today.
• 0:29
  Any, any final thoughts on, on the things that you're doing? 'cause I know you're doing tons of training. You're help helping the, the industry out, helping the technicians in in South America. Any, any final thoughts?
• 0:29
  Danilo: No. Thank you for your invitation. My pleasure talking to you, talking for the all guys here in front of, of here in the, in the media.
• 0:29
  Yeah. Of course, I, I, I think he, we need to implement for education. Education for this not new. Okay. Because imagine it a two L have 15 years Okay. Yeah. To first implement, or the first
• 0:30
  Yeah. Of course, I, I, I think he, we need to implement for education. Education for this not new. Okay. Because imagine it a two L have 15 years Okay. Yeah. To first implement, or the first
• 0:30
  Trevor: 15 years ago is the first A two L?
• 0:30
  Danilo: Yes. Wow. But at, at this moment, we have ahoo in the countries to implement because now is who.
• 0:30
  In the past. Okay. It is possibility now it's whole to apply. We need to, to explore more education according that you, you, you're talking very good about. Depend off the guys electrician. Guys need a specific trainee. Mechanical guys need a specific training. Yeah. The designer guys need to a specific training.
• 0:30
  Implement all the trainees for the hands-on. Hands-on is the end of, yeah. The, the time you, you put your hands for the, the transfer. This, not technology, but need the, these implementation or solutions, new solutions for in guys in front of your customers. I think the, the key message that I I, I end here is.
• 0:31
  Implement all the trainees for the hands-on. Hands-on is the end of, yeah. The, the time you, you put your hands for the, the transfer. This, not technology, but need the, these implementation or solutions, new solutions for in guys in front of your customers. I think the, the key message that I I, I end here is.
• 0:31
  Education more is I think is a, a key message to prepare for the, the globally, for the big, big or good globally to, to. For us.
• 0:31
  Trevor: Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I, I think training and education is, and mentorship's our motto at Refrigeration Mentor, which is really cool. And one, and once again you said training and education.
• 0:31
  I, I've been reading tons of more manuals on a two Ls and, 'cause all the manufacturers that build equipment, they have to test their equipment on the A two Ls or a threes or CO2. So things do change a bit. Right. For, for example, superheat on a two Ls, depending on the refrigerant, on a compressor, it might be a lot higher than what the old standard was.
• 0:31
  And the way you, you set the system up may be a little bit different and it is gonna be different with a higher glide like you talked about earlier, which I appreciate you talking about that because there's lots of people that come into my supermarket program and they're like, what's glide again? You know it's, they might have knew it before, but it's just not something they talk about all the time.
• 0:32
  And the way you, you set the system up may be a little bit different and it is gonna be different with a higher glide like you talked about earlier, which I appreciate you talking about that because there's lots of people that come into my supermarket program and they're like, what's glide again? You know it's, they might have knew it before, but it's just not something they talk about all the time.
• 0:32
  And I think that reeducation continuing education is amazing. Appreciate you. Thank you so much for taking the time.
• 0:32
  Danilo: Thank you. Thank you, man.
• 0:32
  Trevor: Any questions? Yeah.
• 0:32
  Yes. You meant a, oh, sorry. Yep.
• 0:32
  Okay. So the question is when you mentioned about a, using a vac pump. And are you meaning like a different vac pump from the regular one using on A two L?
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: It's a versus one.
• 0:32
  Trevor: So do you mean how low of the microns? Yeah. No, so, so in South, south, south America and I, I shouldn't speak for you, they, they don't use a vac pump a lot. There's some guys don't have vac pumps.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Trevor: No. There's a lot of places around the world. People that reach out to me, a lot of time they say, I don't have that equipment, Trevor, that you're talking about.
• 0:32
  Yeah. So, so it's different. Like here, we're, we're, we're lucky we can do it. Right. We can get the equipment and it does cost, the equipment does cost as a technician, when you're starting out, you don't have a lot of money because I didn't. And, but over the years after I made more money, I bought the, the right tools.
• 0:33
  Yeah. So, so it's different. Like here, we're, we're, we're lucky we can do it. Right. We can get the equipment and it does cost, the equipment does cost as a technician, when you're starting out, you don't have a lot of money because I didn't. And, but over the years after I made more money, I bought the, the right tools. So
• 0:33
  Okay, so the question is what issues do you see with on low temp systems with high glide refrigerants
• 0:33
  Danilo: for the different, with the, the
• 0:33
  Trevor: 4, 4 8 or 4 4 9 on low temp systems?
• 0:33
  Danilo: I think this mix of the refrigerant to use is a part of the mistake of the high glide or not. But for example, if you compare GWP 4, 4, 8 and 4, 4, 9 is the same. Yeah. Okay. But 4, 4, 8 have another parts different or different t to compare. 4, 4, 4, 9. And a 12 five. Five, five A. If you compare five F 4, 5, 5 four C is the, the, the G level P same, but 4 5, 5 A have a CO2, 3% and four, five four C.
• 0:33
  Don't have CO2 in this different ret in the mix of the rets. Change for the glide. Yeah.
• 0:34
  Don't have CO2 in this different ret in the mix of the rets. Change for the glide. Yeah.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: We understand where the quiet is, but what is the problem in the system
• 0:34
  Trevor: that that high temperature temperature, high discharge temperature.
• 0:34
  Now you'll see, so you work low temp R 22 systems before. Okay. What? Demand cooling. So one thing about R 22 there, that's one of the hottest run running refrigerant with low temp 'cause it's such a high compression ratio and such a high discharge temperature. So you had to have demand cooling. Then we moved into 4 0 4 systems where you may needed a head cooling fan, depending on the operation envelope of that compressor.
• 0:34
  Doesn't matter the manufacturer. Then we moved into 4, 4, 8. Now 4 4 8 4 4 9 is higher temperature than 4 0 4, but not as hot as R 22. And depending on where you're at in the operation envelope of that compressor, you may or may not need demand cooling. So going with these A two Ls, as you get lower into GW P, they gotta add more things like our CO2.
• 0:34
  Yeah, which changes the glide on those systems. So as you get lower it, it starts to change. So what you need to look for is. Potentially that. So what you wanna look for is superheat. You'll have to have D potentially different superheat. The standard for Copeland used to say is like, oh, if you got 20 degrees Superheat Fahrenheit, which is like 10, 10 K or 11 K that may not, that's not the same with CO2 and same with a two Ls.
• 0:35
  Yeah, which changes the glide on those systems. So as you get lower it, it starts to change. So what you need to look for is. Potentially that. So what you wanna look for is superheat. You'll have to have D potentially different superheat. The standard for Copeland used to say is like, oh, if you got 20 degrees Superheat Fahrenheit, which is like 10, 10 K or 11 K that may not, that's not the same with CO2 and same with a two Ls.
• 0:35
  You might have to have a higher minimum superheat with these refrigerators at the compressor. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Great question.
• 0:35
  I wanna thank you very much for taking the time and look forward to see you at the next Refrigeration mental podcast. Thank you.
• 0:36
  I wanna thank you very much for taking the time and look forward to see you at the next Refrigeration mental podcast. Thank you.