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Spotting The Signs Of Financial Abuse · A Little Bit Richer

• 0:00
  Kia: Hi. It's Kia. Financial abuse is a phrase that is becoming more and
• 0:04
  Kia: more widely used in modern society, partly thanks to high
• 0:08
  Kia: profile cases such as Britney Spears's controversial conservatorship where her
• 0:11
  Kia: family were in control of her earnings for many years.
• 0:14
  Kia: So it's a particularly important topic this week: how to
• 0:18
  Kia: recognize different forms of economic abuse and what you can
• 0:22
  Kia: do to help friends or family who might be experiencing this.
• 0:26
  Kia: With me today is Katie Binns, an award- winning journalist
• 0:29
  Kia: who investigates financial abuse. Before we get into the episode,
• 0:33
  Kia: I just want to note that we'll be speaking about
• 0:34
  Kia: topics including domestic and economic abuse and coercive control, just
• 0:39
  Kia: flagging in case that's a trigger. We'll be including some
• 0:41
  Kia: places to go to for support in the show notes too. Okay,
• 0:44
  Kia: let's get into it. So Katie, financial abuse is a topic
• 0:49
  Kia: we're all becoming more aware of, partly due to celebrities
• 0:52
  Kia: such as Britney Spears, Mel B, and Kesha going public
• 0:55
  Kia: about having been subjected to it. Could you start by
• 0:58
  Kia: explaining more about what financial abuse is, please?
• 1:01
  Katie Binns: Yes. Financial abuse is something that is more common than
• 1:05
  Katie Binns: you might think. One statistic that always shocks me and
• 1:09
  Katie Binns: that I think is worth knowing is that 6 million
• 1:12
  Katie Binns: people in the UK will experience financial abuse at some
• 1:16
  Katie Binns: point in their lives. Shocking, isn't it?
• 1:18
  Kia: 6 million?
• 1:19
  Katie Binns: Yeah, 6 million. That's what the latest research shows. And
• 1:23
  Katie Binns: it involves someone, and this someone can be an abusive
• 1:26
  Katie Binns: partner, an abusive friend, an abusive carer, an abusive family
• 1:31
  Katie Binns: member, essentially denying you access to your finances and things
• 1:35
  Katie Binns: that you own. And sadly, it doesn't exist in isolation.
• 1:39
  Katie Binns: It doesn't happen in isolation. It happens alongside other forms
• 1:43
  Katie Binns: of domestic abuse. And it can be someone controlling how
• 1:47
  Katie Binns: you spend money, denying you access to work, running up
• 1:52
  Katie Binns: debt in your name, refusing to pay joint bills, giving
• 1:57
  Katie Binns: you a weekly allowance. And I'm really glad that you
• 2:00
  Katie Binns: mentioned Britney, Mel B, and Kesha, because they show us
• 2:05
  Katie Binns: that financial abuse can happen to anyone. It doesn't matter
• 2:09
  Katie Binns: how rich you are, how famous you are, how connected
• 2:12
  Katie Binns: you are. Anyone can become a victim of financial abuse.
• 2:16
  Katie Binns: I know that in the case of Britney, even though
• 2:18
  Katie Binns: she was earning millions from her Las Vegas residency, she
• 2:22
  Katie Binns: was given a weekly allowance. She didn't have access to
• 2:25
  Katie Binns: her credit card. When I interviewed Mel B years ago,
• 2:28
  Katie Binns: she told me how, when she left her husband, she
• 2:31
  Katie Binns: didn't have access to her bank account. She didn't have
• 2:33
  Katie Binns: a debit card. She didn't even have the money to
• 2:35
  Katie Binns: put down for a deposit for a rental property.
• 2:38
  Kia: Wow.
• 2:38
  Katie Binns: Yeah. Really wow, wow, wow. And in the case of Kesha,
• 2:42
  Katie Binns: there's allegations of her being forced to work against her
• 2:45
  Katie Binns: will with an abusive music executive. So three different women,
• 2:49
  Katie Binns: three different situations, but they all really hammer the point
• 2:53
  Katie Binns: that anyone can be a victim of financial abuse.
• 2:56
  Kia: I think, like you said, when you see it not
• 3:00
  Kia: just from a normal person's perspective but from a celebrity's,
• 3:04
  Kia: it really just does show-
• 3:06
  Katie Binns: Yeah.
• 3:06
  Kia: ... how prevalent it is.
• 3:07
  Katie Binns: Yeah.
• 3:07
  Kia: And that it can happen to absolutely anyone. And the
• 3:10
  Kia: amount of power you have doesn't exclude you from that happening-
• 3:14
  Katie Binns: Doesn't matter.
• 3:14
  Kia: ... to you.
• 3:15
  Katie Binns: Yeah.
• 3:16
  Kia: I think wow. That's really powerful. So Katie, what are
• 3:20
  Kia: the signs of economic abuse then?
• 3:23
  Katie Binns: So economic abuse looks different in different situations. And actually,
• 3:28
  Katie Binns: it can be really difficult to identify. Every person I've
• 3:32
  Katie Binns: ever interviewed about their experience of financial abuse always says
• 3:35
  Katie Binns: to me, " It started so gradually. And I thought they
• 3:39
  Katie Binns: were so caring the way they offered to help me
• 3:41
  Katie Binns: with my finances. And I thought it was really sensible
• 3:44
  Katie Binns: that what they were suggesting." And so it starts gradually.
• 3:48
  Katie Binns: That's one of the key things about financial abuse. And
• 3:52
  Katie Binns: it can be sabotaging your access to income. So we're
• 3:56
  Katie Binns: talking about someone limiting the hours you work, maybe limiting
• 4:01
  Katie Binns: your access to education and training so that you can
• 4:05
  Katie Binns: work or maybe earn more money. It can be restricting
• 4:09
  Katie Binns: your access to your finances. So someone essentially controlling how
• 4:14
  Katie Binns: you spend or making you justify your spending, making you
• 4:18
  Katie Binns: go through your receipts to justify your spending. Maybe giving
• 4:22
  Katie Binns: you a weekly allowance, making you ask for money. Maybe
• 4:25
  Katie Binns: gaining access to your benefits, restricting your use of your
• 4:28
  Katie Binns: car, restricting your use of a mobile phone to apply
• 4:32
  Katie Binns: for a job or something. It can be exploiting your
• 4:36
  Katie Binns: finances. So this is where we're talking about someone stealing
• 4:38
  Katie Binns: your money, taking out debt in your name, which is
• 4:41
  Katie Binns: truly devastating. It can be someone refusing to pay their
• 4:45
  Katie Binns: part of the joint bills. It can be someone damaging
• 4:49
  Katie Binns: your property, which obviously causes you financial harm. It looks
• 4:53
  Katie Binns: different in different situations. And of course, this might make
• 4:57
  Katie Binns: people really nervous about the idea of joint finances. And
• 5:01
  Katie Binns: I'd hate that because joint finances are a brilliant way
• 5:04
  Katie Binns: to manage your finances in a couple. Billions of couples
• 5:07
  Katie Binns: benefit from joint finances, myself included. So joint finances are
• 5:12
  Katie Binns: certainly a brilliant way to manage your finances and not
• 5:16
  Katie Binns: to be scared of it just because of what we're
• 5:17
  Katie Binns: discussing now.
• 5:19
  Kia: I think it's such a wide spectrum-
• 5:22
  Katie Binns: Right.
• 5:22
  Kia: ... of signs that you mentioned there that even just
• 5:25
  Kia: listening to you detail some of those, I'm like, sometimes
• 5:30
  Kia: you have friends who confide in you about things about
• 5:32
  Kia: their partners. I can almost identify certain situations where that
• 5:36
  Kia: could have led to that. It hasn't-
• 5:37
  Katie Binns: No.
• 5:37
  Kia: ... fortunately, from anyone that I know personally. But it
• 5:41
  Kia: opens up to your mind to what it could look like-
• 5:44
  Katie Binns: Yes, yes.
• 5:44
  Kia: ... and begin to move into, which I think is
• 5:47
  Kia: just very key for people to be aware of.
• 5:49
  Katie Binns: Yeah.
• 5:51
  Kia: So we can see how devastating economic abuse can be
• 5:56
  Kia: for people. Like you said, we've read so many stories
• 5:58
  Kia: about people that it's happened to. So is it classified
• 6:02
  Kia: as a crime now then?
• 6:03
  Katie Binns: So economic abuse is recognized by the law. Since 2021
• 6:09
  Katie Binns: it's included in the definition of domestic abuse in the Domestic
• 6:12
  Katie Binns: Abuse Act. However, this doesn't make economic abuse a crime
• 6:17
  Katie Binns: in its own right. What this inclusion in the Domestic
• 6:21
  Katie Binns: Abuse Act means is that police and other agencies should
• 6:26
  Katie Binns: be aware of the issue of financial abuse and they
• 6:29
  Katie Binns: should be more likely to recognize a pattern of financially
• 6:33
  Katie Binns: abusive behaviors as coercive and controlling behavior. And this is
• 6:39
  Katie Binns: the really important part because financially abusive behaviors are recognized
• 6:43
  Katie Binns: and prosecuted under the coercive or controlling behavior offense. And
• 6:50
  Katie Binns: people have been prosecuted and sentenced to prison for financially
• 6:54
  Katie Binns: abusive behaviors under the Controlling or Coercive Behavior Act.
• 6:58
  Kia: I think that's good to know that there is that
• 7:03
  Kia: out there. So if someone is experiencing that, you can pursue
• 7:06
  Kia: a legal route and see where that does take you.
• 7:08
  Kia: So I think it is good to know that that is
• 7:09
  Kia: there. How can we take action? So whether it's someone
• 7:14
  Kia: who is experiencing economic abuse themselves or whether we know
• 7:19
  Kia: someone close to us that-
• 7:20
  Katie Binns: Yeah.
• 7:20
  Kia: ... we believe experiencing that themselves?
• 7:23
  Katie Binns: There is help available. There are things that you can
• 7:26
  Katie Binns: do. So if you are a victim, there is a
• 7:29
  Katie Binns: hardship fund that you can apply to via the wonderful
• 7:32
  Katie Binns: charity Women's Aid. I think you can apply for up
• 7:35
  Katie Binns: to 500 pounds. Your bank may be able to help
• 7:38
  Katie Binns: you. TSB, for example, has an emergency flee fund. HSBC
• 7:43
  Katie Binns: has its safe spaces in all of its branches. Interestingly,
• 7:47
  Katie Binns: your employer may be able to help you. Just a
• 7:49
  Katie Binns: few days ago, I saw in the news that Kellogg's
• 7:52
  Katie Binns: has put together an employee benefits package essentially for its
• 7:56
  Katie Binns: employees who find themselves in domestic situations and that they
• 8:00
  Katie Binns: want to help. So your employer might be able to
• 8:03
  Katie Binns: help you. If you have a joint current account with
• 8:08
  Katie Binns: your partner and you want to deal with it, then
• 8:10
  Katie Binns: you must speak to your bank about that. That's something
• 8:13
  Katie Binns: you can do now. It used to be that to
• 8:15
  Katie Binns: close a joint bank account down, you'd have to have
• 8:18
  Katie Binns: the two parties put in writing that wish. Now because
• 8:23
  Katie Binns: of Domestic Abuse Act, that rule has been eased. So
• 8:26
  Katie Binns: if you need to deal with a joint account, you
• 8:29
  Katie Binns: must speak to your bank or building society. Another interesting
• 8:33
  Katie Binns: one is the credit reference agencies. So Experian, TransUnion, they've
• 8:38
  Katie Binns: set up a password system so that if your abuser
• 8:41
  Katie Binns: tries to take out credit in your name, the password
• 8:44
  Katie Binns: will stop them. And so obviously that's a brilliant system
• 8:48
  Katie Binns: to have in place. There's also the charity Surviving Economic
• 8:52
  Katie Binns: Abuse, which is an excellent source of support for victims.
• 8:56
  Katie Binns: They have a telephone support line, they have a survivor's
• 8:59
  Katie Binns: forum. If you are in that unfortunate position where you
• 9:02
  Katie Binns: are watching a loved one who is in that position,
• 9:04
  Katie Binns: what can you do? Well, again, there are things. It's
• 9:08
  Katie Binns: about being there for them, telling them that you're concerned,
• 9:12
  Katie Binns: telling them that you're there for them, that help is
• 9:16
  Katie Binns: available, some of the help that I've just mentioned, for
• 9:18
  Katie Binns: example. And to keep checking in with them because, more
• 9:22
  Katie Binns: often than not, it takes people time to make a
• 9:24
  Katie Binns: decision or to act. I think be careful what you
• 9:28
  Katie Binns: say around their abuser and be careful what you put
• 9:31
  Katie Binns: in messages because their abuser might be reading them. That's
• 9:33
  Katie Binns: another big one. Always have information about domestic abuse to
• 9:37
  Katie Binns: hand so that you're ready for them whenever they're ready.
• 9:40
  Katie Binns: Obviously it's a no- brainer if you're in a position
• 9:42
  Katie Binns: to help them, lend them money, offer them a spare
• 9:44
  Katie Binns: room. And I think emotional support is a big one
• 9:47
  Katie Binns: that you can offer. De- linking in your finances from
• 9:49
  Katie Binns: someone can be a lengthy process, so emotional support is
• 9:55
  Katie Binns: a big one.
• 9:56
  Kia: That's some amazing advice that you've given there. And I
• 9:59
  Kia: think even hearing how much building societies and banks and
• 10:05
  Kia: credit reference agencies are actually putting in place to help
• 10:09
  Kia: victims, I think, is stuff that even I didn't know
• 10:12
  Kia: was there. But it's really good for people to know
• 10:14
  Kia: about whether they're in that situation now or maybe they're not,
• 10:17
  Kia: but maybe that does happen later down the line just
• 10:19
  Kia: to know that you can-
• 10:20
  Katie Binns: Yeah.
• 10:20
  Kia: ... do those things. And if you are someone who is observant,
• 10:23
  Kia: it happens to a loved one-
• 10:24
  Katie Binns: Yeah.
• 10:24
  Kia: Then everything that you mentioned there is just really key
• 10:27
  Kia: and crucial. Thank you so much for your thoughts on
• 10:30
  Kia: this, Katie. As we all learn more about financial abuse,
• 10:33
  Kia: are there ways that the situation is getting more positive?
• 10:36
  Kia: For example, are there three things that are giving you hope?
• 10:40
  Katie Binns: Definitely, Kia. I think the first that the law recognizes
• 10:44
  Katie Binns: economic abuse, the fact that people have been prosecuted and
• 10:49
  Katie Binns: sentenced to time in prison for financially abusive behaviors. That's
• 10:53
  Katie Binns: something that we can take heart from. I think the
• 10:57
  Katie Binns: fact that banks and building societies are equipped to help
• 11:01
  Katie Binns: you, they have specially trained staff. And increasingly, other companies
• 11:07
  Katie Binns: and sectors and industries are training their staff to recognize
• 11:11
  Katie Binns: the signs of financial abuse. And I suppose the most positive
• 11:16
  Katie Binns: thing I've encountered over the last five years of writing
• 11:19
  Katie Binns: about financial abuse is the charity Surviving Economic Abuse. They
• 11:23
  Katie Binns: are a brilliant charity and they have campaigned and advocated
• 11:28
  Katie Binns: and supported victim survivors for something like six or seven
• 11:32
  Katie Binns: years now. And we can take heart from everything that
• 11:36
  Katie Binns: they're doing. They're really changing things.
• 11:37
  Kia: Thank you so much, Katie, for coming on to the
• 11:39
  Kia: podcast to talk about this really important topic. I think
• 11:42
  Kia: it's something that isn't spoken about enough, but it's something
• 11:46
  Kia: that's very important. And you've shared so much insight and
• 11:49
  Kia: so much advice for people who are either in that situation or may
• 11:53
  Kia: have friends or family or loved ones who could potentially
• 11:56
  Kia: be in that to know where to go for help
• 12:00
  Kia: and just have a better understanding of what people could
• 12:02
  Kia: be going through. Thank you to Katie for coming onto
• 12:04
  Kia: the podcast and for all of her work on this
• 12:07
  Kia: important issue. If you are affected by anything we've spoken
• 12:10
  Kia: about today, there are links in a description to relevant
• 12:13
  Kia: resources and charities who can help. If you enjoyed the
• 12:15
  Kia: episode, then you know the drill. Follow the podcast, tell
• 12:18
  Kia: all of your friends, and come back next week where
• 12:20
  Kia: I'll be talking about all things investing. See you then.