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Hysterical is Historical with Lisa-Jo Baker · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast with Amy Wicks, your wholehearted life and business coach.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: You should know this podcast will inspire you to grow in self-awareness, be passionate about your faith, and get clear on your calling.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you are new here, then welcome to community of multi-passionate women who love to go deep on topics like faith, Enneagram, relationships, leadership, and community.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: This conversation might provide the step you need to make the change you desire.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get started.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's my joy to reintroduce you to Lisa Joe Baker.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you've heard of her before.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: She's kind of well known in our circle of friends, but in case you haven't, let me introduce you to Lisa Joe Baker.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: She is a former attorney and even a longtime community manager at Encourage.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: She is a best-selling author, national speaker, and she's even acquisitions editor for HarperCollins.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she does a lot of things.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: And she also co-hosted for, I think, almost six years, Out of the Ordinary Podcast.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And she is just outside Washington, DC, with her husband of over 25 years and her three very loud teens.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now, we talk more about her oldest teenager and launching him this last year.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a really sweet thing.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't realize we shared that together of launching our oldest and our firstborn into college.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And she's just shared a little bit more, actually processed in real time a little bit more about that experience.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just sweet to hear that from her.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: But the whole reason why I asked her to be on the podcast again is not only have I loved her other books, but she came out with a new book this last May.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't roaring, it was weeping.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is, well, what Karen Swallow Pryor said, unput downable.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's such a good book.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it shares a little bit more about her story, her father's story.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the theme is that you can write new plot lines in your bloodlines.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's really powerful.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not going to go into the details of it because Lisa Joe does share a lot in our conversation.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we talk about different details of the book.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: But be sure to check out the link for her new book in the show notes and listen into this conversation.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's going to bless you.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's, again, lots of little things we talked about, Enneagram, parenting, launching kids to college, and of course, this beautiful work.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and as a bonus, she shares a little bit about the ending of something that was really good and wonderful and the process of some of that and how the Lord led and directed her in that beautiful ending.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Without further ado, here's my conversation with Lisa Joe Baker.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Hey Lisa.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: How's it going?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: You too.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I was can't I can't believe it's so long since like a book ago, I guess.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: 2019, a whole pandemic ago.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels so long because of all that's transpired.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's so true.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I this is so fun to be rejected.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's so fun.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And okay, so you know how people always want you to dream five years ahead, you know, like what's that what's your life gonna look like in five years?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of what we've done here, unknowingly.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And one of those things for you, one, you wrote another book.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: So good job.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you also, as you were launching this new book, you launched another kid from the nest.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: So your first kid.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I did too.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did it.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: My first.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me how it was for you because ah my heart.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: It it has been challenging.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: It has felt also weirdly redemptive.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like in 2019, I wasn't thinking about either of those things.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: I did not have this book in mind, that's for sure.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I certainly wasn't thinking about launching a kid.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: But if you've read this book, it talks about what my experience at 18 and 19 were like.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, I just God continues to write new stories, and that's how it's felt.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like launching Jackson was so redemptive for me.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, this is what it can be like.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is how a child can go into the world feeling secure and safe, and like his family is with him, and it's this wonderful sense of closure rather than running away.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was in every way it was better.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, how's it been for you?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: I beautifully said, because very similar as well.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And my oldest is a girl, and she actually has a very similar personality as mine, but her wings, she has a stronger six, and I would have a stronger eight, or I tend to pull in that direction.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was fascinating to launch her as well, and it to be launching her into a grand adventure that had been our language around it like we want you to have an adventure and we want to launch you in that, and it to feel so pure and good, instead of as you said, I can't wait to get out of here, which was sadly some of my thoughts.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And even though there was interesting, okay.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that about your story too.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, well, we could be here for hours, and I'm I'm hopeful the Lord isn't gonna ask me to write that book, but you know, I also know there's danger in saying that.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: So oh my goodness, I mean she's doing great now.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And looking ahead, I was more worried about the pain of her actually leaving and several states away.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so now that we've gotten through it, I survived, she's surviving.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: We get homesick for each other, but it's actually made the relationship sweeter.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So interesting that yeah.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Mine is a son, and I think he's a nine.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: He's very much like sort of the peacemaker.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's doesn't really enjoy conversations in which his emotions are required to engage.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not his favorite thing.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a two.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think he part of the way we've described it is the last year in our household was us preparing him, like calling him into manhood, like equipping him and giving him opportunity after opportunity, and then like verbally recognizing it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, what you did, like this passing the driver's test, or this job that you did, or how you're leading worship in church, like, buddy, this is another milestone.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're so ready.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, or when he cooks himself dinner late at night or takes care of his siblings, and actually, he ended up getting jury duty like right before he left.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And he had to navigate it and get downtown and check in with the bailiff and all this stuff.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And when he came back from that, I was like, buddy, like you should you have your adult card, like you that's right.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you can figure that out, so ready.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you're so ready.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so for us, it's been yeah, this narrative of you're ready, we see in you like the qualities of an adult man who's ready to lead, and then mentioning it, like how you took care of your siblings here, or that conversation you had with friends that was hard, like naming all the milestones toward his being ready to leave, so that he had an internal narrative from us that like you are equipped, you are ready, God has called you, like we stand next to you and we launch you out.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: But part of what I had to manage a lot of is as you know, the two, a lot of like, am I okay is sometimes in an unhealthy way based on how everybody else is around me.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to be very careful, like not to set my emotional compass to him and not to let him experience what I was experiencing internally.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be, I actually kept using this phrase.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be a non-anxious presence for him that like I was sure he was ready and he would be okay.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And even though we had moments where I would laugh and say to him, Wow, your turning 19 is so different than mine.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was like the day before we left, he turned 19.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And like we've had so many milestones for him of like graduation parties and inviting all the people in his life to like speak words of blessing over him.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there have been so many sort of celebratory, because I really feel like it's kind of like I remember my dad saying once about weddings, he's like, you need to have like a big wedding celebration.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So when you wake up the next morning, you look at each other and you're like, wow, we are married.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like that just happened.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt that way about his graduation and his leaving.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like these moments are part of his mentally absorbing this is happening.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm ready.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I know as a nine, like we actually like at his graduation party, we had all of these people.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: He had like basically a whole church was there.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: But his dad, like, sat him down in a chair in front of everybody and was like, All right, Jackson, like, I know this isn't really your thing, but we are going to speak into you now what we see.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like choked up thinking he sat there and I watched it.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard for him to like center of attention is not the thing that mine wants at all.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: But he did, and like we had prepared him, he sat there.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: But watching him when his sister, his 13-year-old sister, read to him this piece she'd written about him, and he's like such a classic nine.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was like he was trying to hold in, like he was like sheer willpower, like I will not emote in this moment.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like wiping his fist, like I know he's trying not to cry, but he's just looking at her.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: But it was beautiful because he showed up to it with a whole heart, like he knows how I am and how emotional.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And but we were like, we had to let him know ahead of time we're gonna be doing this.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's he was like like his face when he had told him we were, but he then received it, and like I know he needs to hear all of those things.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I say all that to say, like, I was able to joke with him on some days and be like, dang, Jackson, like the morning I turned 19, I because he turned 19 the day before we left, and like on top of all of the things we had done, he was suddenly at the last minute, like, mom, it's like my birthday tomorrow, and we're gonna be in the car.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Yeah, dude, we've done like five million things for you, and we're moving you to Nashville.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yay, you, you've had we bought all the stuff you need.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, I just I don't, we gotta mark the moment.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think I gotta invite some of the guys over and like, and then can you order fried chicken?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And can we have southern food?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh my word, like this is happening still.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we end up having this amazingly meaningful night.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: All his guy friends, his youth leader, his worship pastor, they're all there.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: They stay for hours and hours and hours, and we're like leaving to drive to Nashville the next morning.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then they have like a jam session.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Jack's a drummer, they're making music, then they all lay hands and pray.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I mean, it's so meaningful.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I say to him the next day when we're driving, I was like, wow, our experiences of turning 19 are so different.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, It's so redemptive to me that God wrote this story for you that I could participate in and see what it can look like.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because the morning I woke up on my 19th birthday, on my 18th birthday, a week afterwards, my mom had died.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Two months later, my dad was engaged to somebody else.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: And six months later, he was married to someone else that I hadn't met because I was overseas.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: The morning of my 19th birthday, I came downstairs in a house that wasn't the house I grew up in with a new mom and a new stepbrother, and had to remind my family that it was my birthday.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, like to have him have this experience of 19 and adulthood and sent into the world, it was so powerfully healing.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like this reminder that God, not the same as living through your kids, but that seeing a legacy that God rewrites, because he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: He's a generational God, and he is constantly rewriting family stories.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so to watch it actually happen, like before my very eyes, was one of the most meaningful experiences of my life.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, truly, like that whole experience with Jackson from 18 to 19, was like God saying to me, Look, like I am writing the story differently for the next generation.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it was very powerful for this to set my bearing by the Lord and what he was doing, and not like how I felt about Jackson and sadness and to just keep holding this non-anxious space.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Although I totally fell apart to my husband, like several times, like in a total breakdown.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And Peter was like, Jackson can never see you like this, just say you're aware.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I'm telling you to you.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is Lisa Joe.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad we went off on this tangent.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a feeling this is what the whole conversation will be because I I think what you outlined is a picture of what God is in the business of doing, which is those 180 reversals.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I've studied the book of Esther a lot of times, Pastor's kid in the ministry forever, but I studied it again through the lens of Beth Moore during a really hard season.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember writing, Lord, help me see those 180 reversals where you basically flip the table.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes those reversals are in our own story and for ourselves specifically.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what you just pointed out, that was a moment when you saw that the Lord did that for your kid.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I I have experienced that this year as well.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so interesting, right?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know when we become a mom, it evokes all this unaddressed pain and trauma.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: But dare I say, maybe there's a whole nother chapter or book on the launching of kids and the new stories it resurrects or the pain and the healing that needs to be.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: It has been, yeah, parenthood has been the most healing journey that the Lord has walked me through because he has showed me through my parenting how he loves me, like how he feels about me.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was in how I feel about my kids that I was like, oh, like God feels this way about me.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, wow.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, in every step, and I don't say that to say parenting is the way we understand God.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'll simply say it's the way he's used for me to understand.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so he meets all of us in unique ways.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, he continues to show me over and over again, like, nope, we write new stories in families.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's what God has always been doing.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that was like funny.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like you asked that question, and it's like a Pandora's box of things.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been proud of my Enneagram nine son, who has held space because he knows his mom is a very emotive person.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he's held space for that, for the tension of like the feelings of other people around him leaving.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's been good for him to learn emotion needs to have a space.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: We have to acknowledge it.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: We have to have moments of closure.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So much so that it was really cool to see him like lean into it that last night with all his friends.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that they were getting ready to go.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I could tell he had a sense of like, I'm not ready, I don't know how to say goodbye.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, but the nine doesn't know how to be like, and now we're in an awkward emotional moment, and I need some kind of closure.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, I think we need to pray.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's pause and pray before.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And like, oh my gosh, these like boy men, you know, just like all held him and prayed.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew he was like crying in the middle of that pack.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, yeah, that's the gift your number two mom can give you.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like all these people and all their feelings in this moment.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you have a sense of closure.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I also think it's brilliant that as a nine, it just shows his health and the culture that you have created in your home, is that he declared his desire to have a celebration for his birthday.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And a moment where, as you said, there've been a ton of things in light of that.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you kind of felt like one more celebration, but he named it.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then you came along that named desire and made it happen.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I think that's just so cool.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And this is one of those beautiful examples where our ceiling gets to be their floor because of the emotional health work that we've done, the mental health work and the tools that we passed on to our kids along the way, whether we knew it was following Enneagram growth or we just were trying to do things a little bit better.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's true.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like several years ago when we've talked about birthday parties, he's always declined.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I don't like to be the center.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't want to be the focus of everybody's attention.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas this year, like that has been the entire story is him as the focus and like watching him lean in and like be able to receive that and name when he feels sad or if his friends feel sad or what they've said.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, a lot of big adult growth, I feel like in his emotional health.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad that we can give him that as he leaves.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I feel like we're picking up right where we left off five years ago.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, a lot has transpired for both of us and the world.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: A couple things.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, in that time you wrote a book that you never thought you would write, and we're gonna definitely talk about that.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: You also were part of a podcast, you and Christy Purifoy, and I know her sister, and so there's like this fun.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I know her.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really, but you know, which sister Kelly.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: That used to be Campbell.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, Kelly.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because she actually lives in the area in town and brought her meals when we first lived here, girls hung out.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, that's our fun little and she was actually on the podcast too, just like Christy.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I say all of that.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: I watched you and Christy post this podcast safely, and as you were launching your book, you were also winding down the podcast.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I know for you, you both launched into a million other things, but how how did it work for you?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or or maybe what were some of the indicators that you knew that time was closing?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think we tend to talk about the launches and the beginnings, but there's also a graceful way to end and to uh go into the next space, if you will.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think in the same way that a child launching out of the house, you know, I don't know that we would describe it as like a winding down or an ending.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, it's almost like this fulfillment of something, right?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like something is birthed, like like you've gotten through like the labor and the pregnancy and you push, and now it's like the launching of something, like, and it's this beautiful sense of full circle, of closure, of accomplishment, of all of those sort of words, rather than maybe like a work project that you dread and you're just like, I just want to be done with this deadline.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, it felt that way.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like Christy and I had hosted a podcast for nearly six years.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: It had been really meaningful to both of us for a long time, but we had sensed almost for a full year there the sense of are we reaching that point?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like the sense of fulfillment that we have poured out everything we're supposed to, in the same way that if Jackson hadn't left, there would also be a sense of like, wait, isn't he supposed to move on?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, isn't there something he's supposed to do?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, um, there was that sense of like, are we approaching that?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually my friendship with Christy has taught me to ask those kinds of questions because sometimes as a two, I can just go along with what everybody else is doing.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Even though, and I've said this to her, like, I had felt I always know when something isn't right because I start to resent it.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's what a two feels.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I still do the thing, but I feel resentful now that I'm doing it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't tell you I don't want to do it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel trapped.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And now I feel like annoyed that I'm doing it, but I keep going.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: But my friendship with Christy, she is a four, and she will just say things like, I've been praying and I just don't know if we're supposed to do this anymore.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, she will just be quite comfortable in whatever the dissonance is, whereas I'm always trying to create a harmony as a two.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was really the permission of that friendship for me to say, Oh, I just feel like low-key, annoyed, resentful, irritated, not to have conversations with you, my friend, but that I have to keep showing up for a job of a podcast while I have like this big other job I have.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I named that, she she had felt the same.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so we were able to actually enjoy that last year in the way you launch a kid because you're aware that it's the last one.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think it made it sweeter.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't resent it.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I felt grateful and lingered in all those last conversations.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the timing really did feel like the Lord's in the same way that everything was kind of leading toward the book and a kid leaving.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was the closing of a season.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: It was the fulfillment of something that we had been asked to do.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, in that way, we described it not as an ending, but like kind of like a road, you know, like now's the off-ramp.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't say that road is ended, you just say, but now I'm supposed to take this turn.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's how it felt to us that we were kind of parting ways with our listeners and we were continuing on one and they were continuing on another, but that the travel together had been deeply rich.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: It had been what it was supposed to be, but that the season had reached reached its climax, really.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love the self-awareness that you bring into this and even the differences of your personality and how you brought that conversation about that, and even arrived at the decision.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I I know that what's great about podcasts is that unless you take them down, they're still there.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And there's an evergreen element.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so exactly, exactly.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: In that same line of thinking with you knowing in your Core desires and where you naturally gravitate in stress and growth and those blind spots.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: How was it for you taking that knowledge into the book launch?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because launching a book, it's a big deal.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot to carry in that, and it's nuanced for everybody.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: So for you, what do you think either maybe helps you as a superpower, but also makes it a little bit more challenging to launch your work?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I am an Enneagram too, as I mentioned, and I'm sort of a resentful two, is the way I describe it.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like being a two.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: I really don't like when people describe two as the helper.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: I feel deeply resistant to that notion.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I really prefer how Beatrice Chestnut in her writing, she describes the two as the befriender, which I think is a much more accurate descriptor for me.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like I like to help people.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like I want to be behind the scenes.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel like I am always like, oh, how can I help make this party better or babysit your kids or help with a church event?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like any of those things.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not a good fit for me.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I am very gifted at connecting with people, at understanding what they need, at intuiting what they need.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I describe myself as a resentful too because I was shaped by a very dysfunctional father.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like my two-ness is a direct result of some of the most negative experiences of my life where I felt I would describe it as chained to his emotional health.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So in order to prevent him from having big outbursts, I completely molded my behavior, my emotions, my feelings around him and what he needed as a survival mechanism.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize that as an adult that I carried those behaviors over, which is why I would never describe myself as like a helper.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't enjoy doing those things.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to get away from it, but I was dysfunctionally molded.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it is kind of it wasn't bringing you joy.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't like it.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I recognize the resentment that comes from it.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And as a mom, where it really manifested is the sense, especially when my kids were little, that I could never be done with the day because they always needed something from me.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: I felt chained to them.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so my husband, he could plop down at the couch at the end of the day, even if the dishes were undone or you know, some kid needed something, and he'd be like, Well, just wait, I'm unwinding.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I couldn't.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I would get so mad and feel so resentful.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And he'd be like, Well, I don't understand, just be done.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized it took me took a lot of therapy and reading to realize what was happening is that it was almost like I needed some kind of permission.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you're allowed to be done now.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because in my childhood, you were never off, you were never allowed to be done.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like whatever my dad needed, whenever he needed it, you needed to be ready, like to provide that service.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was stressful as a parent.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so my husband and I, through many, many fights, that's how you learn these things.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you do.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you don't need anyone's permission.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I guess in my brain, I need you to tell me the words, Lisa Joe, you're done.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're done for the day.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like the mom shop is closed.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: You have permission to be done.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's weird because I recognize I don't need his permission, but I actually need him to verbalize.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And even now, like decades later, where I am much healthier, if I'm spiraling, if I'm having a day where I feel drowning in the needs and the wants and the emotional demands of the people around me in my job, my kids.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll start like frantically like huffing and sighing and folding laundry and like muttering under my breath about how nice it must be to watch TV to my husband.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: He'll look up and so gently be like, hey, honey, honey, do you need permission to be done?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if you do, this is your permission.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then I will laugh and be like, oh, you're right.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can be done.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, like that is that's my context.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think befriender is a word I really love because the two's superpower isn't just to be a helper, it's to intuit like how other people feel, what's going on with them.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so a healthy two is able to come alongside and offer incredible insights, incredible friendship to people because they're reading like so much more about the emotional conversation that's happening.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in a healthy way, going into book launch, I think I was able to really be aware and pay attention ahead of time, like how I was feeling, what was going on with the people around me.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think the healthiest two asks for what they actually need.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to tell my husband, like, I need book launch day to be really special.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, here are things I would like to happen on book launch day.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like I reached out to certain friends and I was like, Christy, I would like you to come and be with me.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so she did.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like she came.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like Pita created special moments, other friends stopped by.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I named the things I knew would help me have a really meaningful day.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then I also paid close attention.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a two under stress goes to an eight.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's weird because we're so passive and we can be manipulative almost in how we understand people and what they want.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we can be so, you know, compassionate and so amenable to everybody until you've pushed us too far.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly we're like gonna bite your head off and you're like, wait, what just what happened here?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's because the two will keep like a running checklist in their mind of everything they've done for someone, waiting for that person to reciprocate.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then when they don't, we're finally like, and now you've maxed me out.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I am now empty and I'm mad at you.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to be very careful walking through stressful seasons to pay attention to that.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what lists am I keeping?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Who do I feel has done me wrong?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's this weird subconscious thing.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, I saw this friend, I called her last.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, she still hasn't called me and she knows I have book launch.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: I have to be like, whoa, like that's crazy, Lisa Joe.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who are the friends you'd like to see?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Reach out to them.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know you feel this way.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's all right.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just try to be very aware of like what is happening in my sort of emotional storage depletion levels, and then to pay attention to what I need and that I can't assume because twos we are very good at anticipating what you need.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you don't assume or anticipate what we need, it makes us very angry.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like Peter had to finally, after years, be like, I don't know what you're thinking.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd be like, How can you not know?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's obvious I did all these things for you.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now you should do this for me.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, just ask me, like, just tell me what you need.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I just was very in tune with my emotional tank, like how full or empty I felt.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then what I was hoping for from people, and then asking for those things specifically.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's well said.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what you are outlining here are not too dissimilar than the nine, the expectations can be summed up unversionally into needs, wants, and desires.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when we can get clear on what those are, if we if we put them in those categories, oh, there's a need, want, or desire here, what am I supposed to do with that?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm supposed to express it, I'm supposed to share it with others, or wrestle out is that an appropriate need, want, or desire right now?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right here for this moment?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other flip side too is us women in general carry on way more responsibility than we were ever expected to or hoped for.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're often responding to those expectations, but it's more of a reaction instead of actual response.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if when we're tuned in, right, when we have the self-awareness, I mean, really a lot of this, even like how we communicate, how we make decisions, the goal is to get to a responsive position instead of a reactive position, which you know, gosh, if we could just kick that happens, and it's it's so simple, but it's not easy.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: We could just do that too.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: It would flip a lot of things in our lives for sure, right?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love that distinction, not to react, but to respond.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's really beautiful.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot of that themed in your book.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: And as I've explored your book, I kept thinking about the phrase.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: If it's hysterical, it's historical.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that's floated around there for a while.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like you went through the process and explored why.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And for you, why in those hysterical moments, what the history was behind that.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like it it sort of outlines what it could look like for us every day.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: How do we go through that process?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, I think it's like you know, we've talked about it's great to have counseling, have a coach help you through it, but man, I think this is been a great book to do that.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure you've heard that phrase before.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to hear your take on it, or maybe even how it aligns with the work that you've done in this book.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: My take on the book or that phrase.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry, that phrase.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: If it's hysterical, it's historical.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, so the book is called It Wasn't Roaring, It Was Weeping.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's a memoir that I hope reads like fiction.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like I hope it's a page turner for people.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, it's this exciting, interesting book about a kid who grew up in sort of the outback of South Africa with a pretty intense father.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: His mom died, and then I, you know, you kind of left wrestling with this parent in the larger context of a country that was going through this huge transition under apartheid and coming out the other side.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then I ran away to America and try to like reconcile these stories about my father and my country, and it has a happy ending.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I can just say like it's a good, it's a good book.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like my grim seven can get through it.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Nines and sevenths are you're welcome.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think that phrase is really powerful because the book is talking about my dad's history and my country's history, and then the wider family that I grew up in and its history.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a pretty hysterical all-around.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, like South Africa has a pretty violent background, apartheid is a terrible evil, but it came out of a hysteria, right?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like this paranoid fear, this othering of entire races of human beings and a rage that was living hand in hand with this.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was like the context of the country I was in, but the context of my family, too, is that I came, you know, descended down through a family line that actually can trace its way all the way back to Vikings.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we get the word berserk from the Vikings.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: They would do these berserker rages, they would whip themselves up into with alcohol and drugs before they fought, in order to be able to be these insane warriors.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is the bloodline I come from.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know that.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Explains a lot, right?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Growing up in a house with a dad who was like this fervent Christian man, but punched holes in the wall and screamed and threatened.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we were terrified of him when we weren't in awe of him because he was also amazing.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he was like both the hero and the villain of every story of my childhood.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's this very confusing cocktail that you try to make sense of as a kid.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And as an adult, when I found myself literally screaming myself in a berserker hoarse rage at one of my children, the thought dropped into my head, oh, I am my father.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so shocking.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized I have to figure out how to write a new story.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it was historical.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: This hysteria was historical.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I just spent years then kind of unpacking it, tracing the threads of family and of nation to try to decode how did we get here?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I write something different?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: That was my goal.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so I talk a lot about this idea about we can write new plot lines in our bloodlines.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like we can change the history, like we can, and it's biblically evident, like it's actually what God does through the family trees that Jesus is descended from.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I just knew it was possible.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't sure what the steps would look like, but the book unpacks a lot of what the journey looked like.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you kind of noted the big moment that you've outlined in the book where you're having this moment of hysteria with your son.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we would maybe summarize as a brokenhearted moment, the moment we realize we're both the victim and the villain.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you take that moment, that brokenhearted moment, you're giving it to the Lord, obviously, and it turns into this long journey.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: So as you were finally taking this journey into a book, and again, it wasn't warring, it was weeping, such a powerful title.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: But how did you finally get from this is my personal journey to something that I'm gonna share with others and invite them to explore the story with me in line of maybe exploring their story?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because no one in their right mind tells stories like this.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was not my intention.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like no, it would be so hard.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: So terrible.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: For you know, for a decade, over a decade, my literary agent had been asking me, when are you gonna write a book about South Africa?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I would always tell her, like, what is there to write?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's nothing.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, I grew up there till I was 18.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: I live here now.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: I genuinely believe there was nothing to say.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Genuinely.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had a moment in 2019, right after my most recent book then had come out.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was invited to speak at the big moms convention that Mops does, where they have like thousands of moms gathered together.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I've spoken many times there on the topic of anger, what it's like to be an angry mom, how to deal with our big feelings.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like this was all sort of part of that journey I'd been on for a long time.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, so they asked me to actually speak on the main stage, like their big venue, and asked if I would speak on this topic again of anger.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, I don't mean what more can I say?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like at this point, I feel like I've covered all the topics.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how more to dissect this idea of my own anger, how about being an angry mom?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I was standing in the bathroom.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's so vivid for me.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was brushing my teeth, and a thought dropped into my mind that was so far removed from my own thinking that it's one of those moments where you realize, oh, this has to be prompted by the Holy Spirit.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's so shocking to me.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't come from within me.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the thought was, you should talk about what it was like to be the child of an angry parent, to give hope to these moms.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I like, I was so shocked.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: I took the toothbrush out of my mouth and put it down and with a mouthful of foam, like addressed the mirror and was like, No, I will never, everybody, Satan.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I like felt nausea.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: I like cold sweats.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: I A would never have described myself that way, which is why I know it was from the Holy Spirit.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: I would, I've never used that word to describe myself.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: My childhood was just my childhood.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: It up until then, I would have described my childhood as pretty average.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is just normal.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was this is my family.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're passionate people, you know, is how I would have described it.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first time I felt like the Lord was like, there's something here you need to look at.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, and listen, if you're listening, you know that feeling.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a closet in your home right now, like an emotional closet that you never look at.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: You never, you don't even pretend that thing even exists.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like the Holy Spirit was just like, Hey, can you just turn your head and acknowledge this room in your life?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, No, definitely not.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do not want to talk about that.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: We'll not be having that conversation with anybody.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I knew if I was gonna talk about that, I would have to talk to my dad.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: And he and I have never, ever had a conversation about my childhood, his temper, nothing.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Even though he was on his own journey with the Lord, he had changed a lot.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I had never once said to him, dude, that was rough, dad.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or like, why did you treat me that way?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or because if you ask those questions, what if he says I didn't?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: What if he says you remember?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't acknowledge right the most horrifying fear of any kid who comes out of a dysfunctional childhood.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, I just was like, no, God, sorry, whoa, you that got that wrong.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then I just couldn't stop thinking about it.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like it haunted me.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I reached out finally to my dad.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't even have the courage to have a phone call.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: I left him a voice note explaining I'd been invited to speak and that I thought I should speak about what it was like.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought I was gonna vomit as I said it, like to be the child of an angry parent.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Would that be okay with him?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this is my encouragement to your listeners: this is how you know that God knows and he's in the business of writing new stories.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because I, A, didn't come up with that idea myself, and B, when he prompted me, it was the right time because he knew what was happening with my dad.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad responded with the most incredibly grace-filled message about how he couldn't imagine there's any part of his life worth talking to anyone about.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if it would help like one other parent understand how God can redeem their story, then I am welcome to like talk about it.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that was this huge watershed in our relationship, in what I shared on that stage, and then ultimately in what would become this book.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: I thought God just wanted me to give the talk on the stage, but really what he was doing was like opening the door, then it took five years of what would eventually become this book.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: The five years is a long time in the especially these days for writing and the process of that.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: So much angst in that.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you kind of gave a hint too, you reached out to your dad beforehand and asked permission.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know that is often a stumbling block for a lot of writers I know, and coaches, even.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I myself I've tried to figure how to artfully share some of the harder aspects of my story while covering either for my family of origin or the family in my home.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, any other tips that you'd have for us as we struggle through and figure out what does that look like to share and and yet honor other people in the story?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think that there's a perfect way.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Ann Lamott has famously said, like, if you didn't want to show up as a bad character in my book, you should have behaved better, is essentially her take on it.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: She and I disagree about that.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, I don't think that's a believer's stance, I think.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: On if yeah, if you want to have some kind of ongoing relationship with the people in your lives, I really love what Mary Carr says.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she is her book on the art of memoir, is was like a Bible to me when I was writing.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot recommend it enough.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and just for anyone who's trying to decode their story, she says if someone shows up in your book, they should be pleasantly surprised, not negatively surprised to see themselves in the story.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: And her books, she had an incredibly traumatic and abusive childhood, but she talks about how it's complicated because she loves her parents and they ended up being reconciled.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: But she's writing these really hard things, but she's writing it through this lens of like deep love for them.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I really paid attention to what she had done when she had written, she A, let them know she was writing, they spent time remembering things together.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: She then gave them the entire manuscript to read ahead of time and made herself available, like flew to be with her mom when she was reading it ahead of time so they could talk and process through things together.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think some of it will depend on what your relationship is with your parent.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: My dad and I, throughout the five years, became much closer because of this.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think it opened up conversations that we would never have had otherwise, which is a grace gift from the Lord.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: I had conversations with my brothers we would never have had outside of them knowing I was writing this book.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was very stressful to my family that I was gonna write this book, very stressful.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: I initially did not frame it as asking permission.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: I told my brothers, I don't need your permission.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is my story.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need your permission.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: The two in me like took a very eight posture.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was very like, I've spent my whole life like compromising and shape shifting, and now I'm not gonna.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't recommend that.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I understand why I did that, but I think where we ended up getting was much healthier, where I was able to be very open-handed and just say, I love you.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not trying to write a hit piece.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I love dad.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just a progression.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad and I talked a lot about how scripture is full of the stories of people who got it wrong in horrifying ways.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like there would be no Bible.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: If we didn't have all of these stories, we don't have all the bad stories.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's true.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think it helped me that I'm an ocean away.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: I know there was a lot of stress on that side, a lot of conversations I wasn't in.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: I had to hear piecemeal from different members of my family about how stressed different people were about the book.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: That was hard and would shut me down for months at a time.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: But my dad finally one day said to me, How he used to call it our book.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, How's our book going?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I don't know.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's kind of stalled out.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then he asked me, Did you have a conversation with one of your brothers recently?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes, Has that made it harder?
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then he just said to me, You need to know, I have told the family.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Joe is writing this book.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: I gave her permission to write it.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: There would be no scripture if we didn't have this terrible stories of people.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: She's writing it, like, get on board.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a kind of gift I don't know if I would have the courage to give my children.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was such a powerful thing he did.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that I got to miss out on a lot of what it took him to get there because we don't live in the same country.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: It took a lot.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: His wife, it was a lot for her.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, I think, still hard for some of them that I wrote it.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: My brothers make movies for a living.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: They're filmmakers.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I remember telling one of them, you know, this is just my story.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's my version of what happened.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then he said, and the book opens with this he said, Yes, but you know that the person who tells the story publicly sets the story in cement.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: People are then like, oh, this is how it happened.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Whether I have a different version.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Version than than you or not, it'll be public.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: So like I had to just be very aware of that.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: And we ended up having, this is the thing about God.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the work, there's the work, there's the book the reader reads, but there's the book we lived, you know, as a family, where he just kept going back to that closet and opening it up and being like, and now let's talk about this part.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: And now let's, you know.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and the thing people often ask me is like, I think they're looking for like, what are the steps?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do I do it?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: And what I always tell people is this honestly, like, God will do it.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: The only part that is your responsibility is to be willing to make eye contact with that room or that closet.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, that's it.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's all I did that moment in the mirror.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: He, God, initiated everything else.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: I just kind of followed along and two steps forward, three steps back, hard conversations, difficult moments, frustration.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, now there's a breakthrough.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of that was his doing.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I just kind of stumbled along behind him, is how I feel.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's my encouragement to people who are coming out of really hard places.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: The truth is that God wants you to be whole, he wants you to be healed, and he, he will initiate all through scripture.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: He is always the initiator.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I genuinely can tell you that that was my experience.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: I just kind of kept following whatever he prompted next.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we had hard conversations, we had good conversations, and I was more shocked than anyone that there is a book that arrived at the end.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you bring up a really important point that God is always kind in these.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: But my guess is if you're in your mid-30s to mid-40s, there is going to be a moment or a couple moments that you're invited to open that closet door or that that door to that room that you haven't wanted to go to.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it might pop open unexpectedly.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: And other times it might be it's time to take care of that.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: But our philosophy at Simply Wholehearted is bring all the broken pieces so God can mint and make the whole heart.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I know there's a lot of fear to speak in that room or open that closet door.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I I've lived it.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: You clearly, Lisa Joe, you've written about it, lived it.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: But there is freedom.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think your book is a testament to that.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's freedom on the other side of being willing to go through that.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you'll appreciate this description because you describe, you know, wholehearted so beautifully.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: When I was contemplating writing the book, I was standing in the kitchen with my friend Christy.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: She and I did this podcast called Out of the Ordinary.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was talking to her about how I felt like maybe I was supposed to write about this.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, but it sounds like a nightmare.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why would I ever want to write these stories?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I had shared some of them with her.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: She just stood there in shock and she was like, Oh yeah, I wouldn't want to write anything.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: I want to unto that one.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: And she goes, but I'll just tell you this.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, I don't know if I'm brave enough to write it.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't tell you I think you should write it.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: But what I can tell you is this the thing we know about the Lord is that he will heal us as deep as we allow him to go into our hearts and our souls.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if you keep him here at the surface, that's not sinful.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like he will love you here.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: But if you trust him to go into those really deep places, you will be healed as deep as you allow him to go.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that is what I can really bear witness to.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: That is what he did.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like a depth of wound.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've ignored for 30 years.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like the depth was so deep into the guts and the being of who I am.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: And through this process, not of writing the book, but of approaching these conversations with God taking the lead, the level of healing has been extreme, but it has been hard.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I say that honestly, but the freedom on the other side of it has been something I couldn't have imagined was uh was a possibility.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: I love that phrase.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: It'll really preach because we're sharing this podcast conversation right about the holiday kickoff, right?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be Halloween here, and there's already Christmas decorations at the store.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean we're starting in the thick of it, right?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've found a couple things.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: This topic of if it's hysterical, it's often historical.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think some of that tends to crop up around the holidays because of the pressure, because of the painful history.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and so the Lord is not likely inviting each one of us listening or thinking about this today to write a public story about our stuff, but likely he's inviting you to do what just Lisa Joe had described about is there someplace deeper?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: And in going deeper, greater intimacy is built.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: So help help our friends as they're wrestling through this desire.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that you can that you would be simplifying it, but making it maybe more possible and help us have the courage we need.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I'll just say this like timing is everything.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: There are gonna be stages of your life.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly, there were for me where I didn't even have capacity to acknowledge that this room existed in my life.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was too busy drowning in like toddlers and carpool and score sports practices and work.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everyone's going about their lives.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, nobody's like, let me schedule in a like three-year period of breaking down all these horrible things from my childhood.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not a thing, right?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we can't just take off from our lives.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're living our lives, we're in the middle of them.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the thing I want to encourage you: God knows that he's got you, he loves you, but he will continue to put opportunities in your path to look.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he'll ask you, look over here.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: And whether it's listening to a podcast like this, or a conversation with you have a friend, or like an irrational screaming fit you have with one of your children, or how you recognize just physically you're out of control with your behavior, your voice, your temper, your hands.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: God will, he will offer you these moments of pause.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's up to you to take him up on it, like to say, oh, what's happening right now, and then enter into it with him.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the great thing about him is he's not asking you to take three years off from your life.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's just gonna come get up in your business, like while you're living your life.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes that means you're gonna listen to this podcast in a car while you're driving to pick up a kid and you're gonna cry and you're gonna talk to him, and he is gonna be present and he will do a bit of the work.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: He will start the work.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're gonna dry your tears because a kid's getting in the car and you have to make dinner and you won't think about it again for a couple of weeks.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's gonna be another moment.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing about him is he just keeps building, just keeps building on all the things that you're willing to do.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so that closet that's full of chaos, he isn't afraid of it.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: He's like the Marie Kondo, like it brings him joy to go into your messy emotional despair closet and just gently like start cleaning it out.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he just will.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's my biggest advice is just to trust him, like just to trust that every time like there's this little moment, take him up on it.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: That that's the only part you have to do.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just take him up on it and see what the Holy Spirit does with you in that pocket.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: I used to say to writers for years, like, if you've only got an hour in the day to write, don't spend it discouraged, spend it writing.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: I feel that way about this kind of healing.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we tend to think, well, I need to put that off till I'm at a marriage weekend or a retreat.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, if you've only got 10 minutes in the day for the Lord to heal you, like, don't spend it discouraged, spend it with him.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let him, you'd be amazed at his ongoing ability to keep going in there, sorting through and cleaning and purging alongside you in the middle of your everyday.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: I love that visual of it being joyful to him and bringing him joy and delight to sift through the mess.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't scare him.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: He's not intimidated, he sees order.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's his job.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Chaos wholeness.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here to bring order, booze.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's perfect.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's perfect.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I really hope that my friends not only get the book, it wasn't roaring, it was weeping, but also maybe the audiobook because and I know there's some words that if I were to read it, I would stumble over and you the pronunciation just perfectly.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think both would be great.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they could even listen to yours and Christy's podcast that has like six years of great content.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: But as they do that and they have all this advice and wisdom to sift through, is there anything else that you want to leave us with, whether it's in light of the holiday or just in light of examining our story a little bit longer?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that you use story.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the subtitle of the book is long, but it is interpreting the language of our fathers without repeating their stories.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe I just want to offer you hope headed into the holiday season, because we can go home for the holidays or have family over and just feel like we're trapped.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is just the story I live on repeat.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: These behaviors, these frustrations, these bad habits.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it can feel like you're trapped.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we have a God, though, who is here to heal us.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I think often of the scene of the man who is lying at the pool of Siloam and he's been lying there his whole life, like trying to get in.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so when Jesus comes up to him, he asks such an odd question first.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Do you want to be well?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the dude's like, Yeah, I'm like lying here, but nobody wants to put me in.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just such a great moment.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's so gentle, isn't it?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: But he also reminds us, like, we have to take initiative too.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's here and he's saying, Do you want to be well?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the thing I want you to think of going into the holidays.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do I want to be well?
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because some it's much easier to just keep living those patterns.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: But Jesus is here saying, Do you want to be well?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do, like I can help you with that.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so my encouragement is if you pick up the book, maybe it just gives you a picture of like one family and how we started to do that because it is possible.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, the audiobook, if you have Spotify, it's on there and it's on Audible and all the places.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, you get to hear me speak English and Afrikaans at Cosa and Zulu, and there's a little bit of everything on there.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think I sing at one point because I'm like trying to recall this childhood song that I'm talking about.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I I have heard from people, and I'm so glad that the audiobook is a fun, immersive experience.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, you've written it in a way that it it feels like fiction and and yet it's a story about your life and the work that the Lord really did in exploring that.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Lisa Joe, this has been amazing.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: It went as long as I thought it probably would, even though I always aim for shorter five years has been too long.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: And whether you have a book in the next five years or not, know that you're always welcome here.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love learning from you and getting to talk with you.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope my friends, as they listen, not only get your stuff and listen, but that they go say hi to you on the socials as well and say thank you for giving your time because that's a good idea.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love connecting.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, find me at Lisa Joe Baker on Instagram or Facebook, all the places.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, my favorite thing is actually hearing from people who've read it.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's so special to know how it resonates with their story.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I would love, love to connect there.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's the best gift you can give our friends for sure.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: This was amazing.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate you.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, you guys.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Ugh, wasn't that so good?
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think I smiled the whole time and just nodded and tried not to interrupt.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think I even muted myself a few times because I just I was like, uh-huh, right?
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to keep hearing more and to talk to her.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, I know you enjoyed it as much as I did.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope that you share it with your friends.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: If it blessed you, especially if something specific blessed you in this, pass it along to your other girlfriends who will not only enjoy hearing from Lisa Joe Baker, but also who will probably want to get her book, her very relatable and stirring book.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't roaring, it was weeping.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you know I love to tease about what's ahead.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna want to make sure you do not miss next week's conversation with Anjulie Pascal.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about prayers for every feeling for the season ahead.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, guys, and I go on and on about it because the resource was so good.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely rant and rave in all the good ways about the book and the resource that we're gonna be talking about.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it was just a beautiful conversation.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: I actually even cried at the end.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll want to tune in for that one, especially as we enter into these busy holiday seasons.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to be able to come in with the spirit of Advent and really soak and savor the goodness while also holding maybe loss and grief as well.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you'll join me next week.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: Until then, remember we're all broken, we're all blowing it.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's the brave one who does something about it.