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What really happened to Epstein victim Virginia Giuffre · The Morning Edition

• 0:04
  S1: Virginia Giuffre was fearless in taking down some of the
• 0:07
  S1: world's most powerful people as Jeffrey Epstein's most prominent victim.
• 0:12
  S1: She helped expose his crimes and hold his friends to account,
• 0:16
  S1: including the man formerly known as Prince Andrew. But despite
• 0:21
  S1: her heroic battle in the most notorious sex trafficking case
• 0:25
  S1: of the 21st century, few know about one of her
• 0:28
  S1: toughest fights. It was one she fought privately at home
• 0:32
  S1: in Australia. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're listening to
• 0:36
  S1: Morning Edition. From The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald today,
• 0:40
  S1: Good Weekend magazine's senior writer Melissa Fyfe and a today
• 0:44
  S1: reporter Carla Hildebrandt on their four part investigative podcast Virginia.
• 0:50
  S1: And just a warning. This episode contains mentions of suicide,
• 0:54
  S1: domestic violence, and other content that may be distressing to listeners.
• 0:59
  S1: Mel and Carla, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:02
  S2: Hi, Sam. Hi, Sam.
• 1:04
  S1: I'm so looking forward to speaking to you because many people,
• 1:06
  S1: when they think of the late Virginia Giuffre, they think
• 1:09
  S1: of that infamous picture of her about the age of
• 1:12
  S1: 17 with Prince Andrew. He's got his arm around her waist.
• 1:16
  S1: That's what comes to mind for many. The two were
• 1:18
  S1: introduced by Jeffrey Epstein, but Mel, is that what initially
• 1:22
  S1: drew you to her story or was it something else?
• 1:24
  S3: Actually, the thing that I was first attracted to was
• 1:28
  S3: the fact that there had been this battle happening over
• 1:31
  S3: her estate and that had been going through the WA
• 1:34
  S3: Supreme Court. And I thought that was really interesting. And
• 1:39
  S3: one of our editors said, well, why don't you look
• 1:42
  S3: into her Australian life? Because people don't realize that Virginia
• 1:46
  S3: lived half of her life in Australia after marrying an
• 1:49
  S3: Australian man. So when I started to look into it,
• 1:53
  S3: that was the basis. But then I kind of realized
• 1:56
  S3: very quickly that Virginia had been the subject of a
• 2:01
  S3: violent restraining order in Perth, and she had had her
• 2:06
  S3: two children taken away. And that is not on you know,
• 2:10
  S3: it's not unheard of for a mother to have her
• 2:12
  S3: children taken away. But it's quite unusual. And I was thinking, well,
• 2:15
  S3: what are those circumstances? How did it get to that?
• 2:19
  S3: And then I knew that I would need some help
• 2:21
  S3: with this. So I reached out to Carla, who's a
• 2:25
  S3: fantastic reporter at WA today, and Carla's been doing a
• 2:29
  S3: lot of the on the ground reporting over there.
• 2:31
  S1: And Carla, you know, as you've said in the feature
• 2:33
  S1: that you wrote with Melissa and also in the podcast
• 2:35
  S1: that you both have made the story, it's not about
• 2:38
  S1: Jeffrey Epstein or the Epstein files, but a battle that
• 2:41
  S1: Virginia was fighting in private for much of her life. So, Carla,
• 2:45
  S1: tell us a bit about that.
• 2:47
  S4: Yeah. So Virginia credits one man with her escape from Epstein,
• 2:51
  S4: and that's Robbie Jeffrey. She met Robbie in Thailand, and
• 2:58
  S4: that's when she had just left Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.
• 3:02
  S4: So she goes to Thailand, and when she's there, she
• 3:05
  S4: meets Robbie, who's doing a martial arts course at the time.
• 3:09
  S4: And within ten days they are married. And he's, you know,
• 3:13
  S4: he's seen as the savior, the person who saved her
• 3:16
  S4: from that horrible life with Epstein.
• 3:22
  S5: I met this amazing person. And long story short, we
• 3:26
  S5: got married in a Buddhist temple in Chiang Mai, and
• 3:29
  S5: he took me home to move to Australia, where Australia
• 3:34
  S5: became my home.
• 3:36
  S4: So she moves back to Australia with him. And so
• 3:39
  S4: what Mel and I were looking into was, were the
• 3:41
  S4: instances of domestic violence throughout their relationship. So our earliest
• 3:45
  S4: understanding of domestic abuse is around 2010. And then later
• 3:50
  S4: on we found evidence that she was assaulted. We actually
• 3:53
  S4: found the documents that came up in the Epstein files
• 3:56
  S4: of all places in 2015 in Colorado. Then we end
• 4:00
  S4: up examining the last four months of her life after
• 4:03
  S4: another alleged assault in Perth.
• 4:05
  S1: Well, Mel, this is what I wanted to go to
• 4:07
  S1: you to ask because you both have chosen to investigate,
• 4:10
  S1: in particular, these last four months of Virginia's life. Virginia,
• 4:14
  S1: as many of us know, tragically took her own life
• 4:16
  S1: in April last year. So why? Why are those months
• 4:20
  S1: of her life so important?
• 4:22
  S3: I think what we see with Virginia's last four months
• 4:25
  S3: is a woman that falls outside the legal systems and
• 4:30
  S3: also other systems. Really, after this alleged incident in January
• 4:37
  S3: the 9th, 2025, where both she and Robbie allege violence.
• 4:43
  S3: She basically is hotel hopping and in fear of him,
• 4:47
  S3: she says. And the police investigate, but they don't press
• 4:53
  S3: any charges, despite the fact that. And we've published these
• 4:56
  S3: in the good weekend. Peace. She took many photos of
• 4:58
  S3: her injuries at the time, and part of our investigation
• 5:02
  S3: was trying to understand why that was why, why nothing
• 5:08
  S3: eventuated from that particular alleged assault. But the second thing,
• 5:13
  S3: which was really interesting, going back to this question of
• 5:16
  S3: why Virginia lost her children, is that after this incident
• 5:21
  S3: in January, where Robbie Giuffre was given a 72 hour
• 5:26
  S3: police restraining order, so he was the one that was
• 5:29
  S3: told to go away from Virginia as soon as that expired. Within,
• 5:34
  S3: you know, half a day, we think he was the
• 5:36
  S3: one that went up to the Perth Magistrates Court and
• 5:39
  S3: successfully applied for a temporary restraining order against Virginia, which
• 5:43
  S3: was although interim, it was six months. And it named
• 5:47
  S3: two of her youngest children as well as him. So
• 5:50
  S3: she couldn't go home. She couldn't get any of her possessions.
• 5:53
  S3: And then she couldn't at all, you know, talk to
• 5:55
  S3: her children and contact Robbie. And that's a very serious thing. And,
• 6:00
  S3: you know, of course, we know that these things are
• 6:02
  S3: put in place for a good reason. There's a whole
• 6:05
  S3: system in Australia and not just WA, but around Australia,
• 6:09
  S3: where these interim orders are available to people who are
• 6:14
  S3: really in emergency situations and they feel like they are
• 6:18
  S3: unsafe and they need to be protected from a potentially
• 6:21
  S3: violent partner. And part of the issue here that we
• 6:25
  S3: discovered with Virginia was that the bar is set very
• 6:28
  S3: low for these orders. You know, the evidence that you
• 6:31
  S3: need is not like a normal court proceeding. And also
• 6:35
  S3: you can get them held ex parte, which means that
• 6:39
  S3: the other person doesn't even know or needs to be
• 6:42
  S3: notified or attend that court hearing. And so they can
• 6:47
  S3: be done very quickly and with a lower level of evidence.
• 6:50
  S3: And now we spoke to many domestic violence experts who
• 6:53
  S3: said that this is really good. This system is is
• 6:56
  S3: good because women in particular, and they mostly are women
• 7:00
  S3: need it. However, what these experts also said was that
• 7:05
  S3: we are seeing rising rates of a thing that's called misidentification,
• 7:10
  S3: which is where the victim gets misidentified as the perpetrator. Now,
• 7:15
  S3: obviously in this situation, Robbie had every right to go
• 7:18
  S3: to the court if he was felt in fear of Virginia. However,
• 7:23
  S3: it did raise questions about what are the kind of
• 7:27
  S3: things that magistrates need to look for when people are
• 7:31
  S3: applying for these orders. And we've basically found that that
• 7:36
  S3: was a real issue and that has a cascading effect.
• 7:39
  S3: So once you're got that order against you and you're
• 7:43
  S3: treated as the perpetrator, anything that you do from there
• 7:46
  S3: on in life is made very difficult. And we saw
• 7:50
  S3: that with Virginia in the last four months. She became
• 7:52
  S3: very isolated, and there was very little she could do
• 7:56
  S3: about that, because when she objected to the order, it
• 7:59
  S3: was going to take her six months to actually come
• 8:02
  S3: back into the court to hear that objection. And over
• 8:05
  S3: these four months, we were able to piece together what
• 8:09
  S3: she was doing through access to diaries, photos, text messages
• 8:17
  S3: and a lot of exclusive access to her US based family.
• 8:21
  S3: All of these things meant that we could reveal what
• 8:24
  S3: really happened to Virginia in those last four months, before
• 8:27
  S3: she sadly took her life on the 25th of April 2025.
• 8:35
  S1: We'll be right back.
• 8:39
  S3: Virginia Giuffre helped vanquish a prince and a millionaire.
• 8:43
  S6: And I won't stop fighting. I will never be silenced.
• 8:46
  S3: But one of her toughest battles was a very private one.
• 8:50
  S7: It was the worst thing that could have happened to her.
• 8:52
  S7: Her children were her life.
• 8:56
  S3: Virginia, a podcast from the newsrooms of the age, the
• 9:00
  S3: Sydney Morning Herald and WA today, out now.
• 9:08
  S1: And so Carla and Mel, we've spoken about how there
• 9:10
  S1: was domestic abuse that had occurred between Virginia Giuffre and
• 9:14
  S1: her then husband, Robby Giuffre, in the lead up to
• 9:17
  S1: her death. But let's just zero in on this critical moment.
• 9:21
  S1: When a magistrate issued an interim restraining order against Virginia,
• 9:25
  S1: which then prevented her from seeing two of her children.
• 9:28
  S1: Is it the case that the magistrate and the police
• 9:31
  S1: involved didn't know, or perhaps weren't told, that years earlier,
• 9:35
  S1: Robby had been actually arrested for assaulting Virginia back in
• 9:38
  S1: the US? And so Carla and Mel, we've spoken about
• 9:42
  S1: how there was domestic abuse that had occurred between Virginia
• 9:46
  S1: Giuffre and her then husband, Robby Giuffre, in the lead
• 9:49
  S1: up to her death. But let's just zero in on
• 9:51
  S1: this critical moment. When a magistrate issued an interim restraining
• 9:55
  S1: order against Virginia, which prevented her from seeing two of
• 9:58
  S1: her children. Is it the case that the magistrate and
• 10:01
  S1: the police who were involved in this didn't know or
• 10:04
  S1: weren't told that years earlier, Robby had been actually arrested
• 10:08
  S1: for assaulting Virginia back in the US?
• 10:10
  S4: Yeah. So he had been charged, but he had been
• 10:13
  S4: charged in 2015 in Colorado. So we're not sure about
• 10:19
  S4: the information sharing between Colorado and Australia.
• 10:23
  S3: And the other complicating factor, Carla, of course, was that
• 10:26
  S3: Virginia had suppressed that report herself. You know, when back
• 10:30
  S3: in the day when she wanted to keep all of
• 10:32
  S3: the secrets of her marriage, she had suppressed the report.
• 10:35
  S3: So we're not sure whether even if the Australian police
• 10:38
  S3: were trying to find it, whether they would have found it.
• 10:41
  S1: And do we know why she was trying to keep
• 10:43
  S1: the secrets about her marriage?
• 10:44
  S4: We think maybe so they could enter and leave the US.
• 10:47
  S4: But also it could have been to avoid. We thought
• 10:50
  S4: it might have been, could have, could have been to
• 10:51
  S4: avoid media attention as well.
• 10:53
  S3: Yeah, definitely. She wanted to avoid media attention because she
• 10:56
  S3: was gearing up in this battle against Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell,
• 11:00
  S3: and she wanted to have no other distractions. I think
• 11:02
  S3: she didn't want the media to be reporting on this
• 11:05
  S3: part of her life that she didn't really want to
• 11:08
  S3: have in the public, and she also wanted to protect
• 11:10
  S3: her children, I think.
• 11:12
  S1: And just a note here that Robbie Giuffre did issue
• 11:14
  S1: a statement through his lawyer. So just tell us, what
• 11:16
  S1: did he say?
• 11:17
  S3: Basically, we put every allegation in the podcast and in
• 11:21
  S3: the Good Weekend piece to Robbie and through his lawyers,
• 11:25
  S3: he responded that Virginia had suffered significant mental health issues
• 11:30
  S3: and an overreliance on prescription medication due to the pressure
• 11:35
  S3: of being in the public eye. And he said, quote,
• 11:38
  S3: this may have led to Virginia's change of perspective. He
• 11:41
  S3: also had what we interpreted as a bit of a
• 11:44
  S3: go at Virginia's US family, and he said that he
• 11:48
  S3: was limited in responding to, quote, various unfounded allegations for
• 11:52
  S3: legal reasons, because there is the ongoing estate case and
• 11:56
  S3: that he and the children are just wanted to remember
• 11:59
  S3: Virginia as a loving wife and mother.
• 12:02
  S1: And Mel, I wanted to ask you something further. I mean,
• 12:04
  S1: what does it say to you that someone, as public
• 12:07
  S1: and high profile, as wealthy as Virginia, could be failed
• 12:10
  S1: by so many of our systems?
• 12:13
  S3: Well, the thing about the issue that we were talking
• 12:15
  S3: about before, which is misidentification and also perhaps being on
• 12:20
  S3: the wrong end of a police investigation, particularly misidentification, we
• 12:25
  S3: know affects indigenous women particularly, and also women who come
• 12:32
  S3: from more diverse backgrounds. So I think it really says
• 12:36
  S3: something that someone like Virginia, who is a white woman.
• 12:41
  S3: And also at the time, you have to remember Sam.
• 12:44
  S3: She was very wealthy. Her estate is worth around 30
• 12:49
  S3: million AUD. So she did not lack the funds for
• 12:53
  S3: the fight. But still she found herself outside the system.
• 12:57
  S3: So I think that speaks to the problems, the more
• 13:00
  S3: systemic problems that we're looking at here.
• 13:02
  S1: And, Carla, I just wanted to go to you because
• 13:04
  S1: you've been interviewing Virginia's family for months. They've called for
• 13:08
  S1: a police review, a public inquest, among other interventions. So
• 13:12
  S1: what are they hoping comes from these investigations? Should they
• 13:15
  S1: take place?
• 13:16
  S4: So in June, the WA police announced an internal review
• 13:20
  S4: into their dealings with Virginia. Um so we had written
• 13:24
  S4: to them. What month was that. I don't know, earlier
• 13:28
  S4: this year we had written to them asking for an
• 13:31
  S4: internal investigation. Cole Blanche, the commissioner, got back to us
• 13:35
  S4: and said, you put it to the Ombudsman. So then
• 13:37
  S4: we didn't hear back. And then Virginia's family wrote to them,
• 13:40
  S4: and then they didn't hear back. But then we heard
• 13:43
  S4: some chitter chatter that there was going to be, you know,
• 13:46
  S4: something was going to happen. And then in Parliament, he
• 13:48
  S4: did confirm that they were doing this internal investigation. So
• 13:52
  S4: they're going to review their own interactions with Virginia. But
• 13:55
  S4: that doesn't cover her interactions in the courts or with
• 13:59
  S4: other agencies, with her health providers, anything like that. So
• 14:03
  S4: the families also requesting for an inquest into her death,
• 14:07
  S4: a public inquest. So, you know, the inquest system in
• 14:09
  S4: WA is different to other states as well. And there's
• 14:12
  S4: not very many public inquests, especially into suicide. So that's
• 14:17
  S4: a public inquest will be able to see exactly who
• 14:20
  S4: interacted with her and what failings or what things could
• 14:23
  S4: be changed for future victims. So that's what her family
• 14:26
  S4: is calling for.
• 14:27
  S3: We're also reporting today that the WA Ombudsman is going
• 14:31
  S3: to be reviewing the police's interactions with Virginia as well.
• 14:36
  S3: So that's a significant development.
• 14:38
  S1: And a question for the both of you. I mean,
• 14:39
  S1: what are you hoping that people will take away from
• 14:42
  S1: both your podcast and the investigation as a whole?
• 14:45
  S4: So I think one of the things that we, you know,
• 14:48
  S4: we hope people take away, we were both really struck
• 14:50
  S4: by Virginia's notes on domestic violence, particularly controlling behavior and
• 14:56
  S4: those coercive control tendencies like controlling behavior, jealousy. She wrote
• 15:01
  S4: so articulately and just incredible. Like she just put it
• 15:06
  S4: so concisely about her experience into these notes, almost like
• 15:10
  S4: she was writing to in the future, like advocate on
• 15:15
  S4: this issue. Like it felt like she was writing like,
• 15:18
  S4: you know, controlling behavior is abuse. Recognize warning signs. It
• 15:23
  S4: was these things like that. She would be either telling
• 15:25
  S4: someone else or, you know, talking about in the future.
• 15:28
  S4: So it was just incredible.
• 15:30
  S3: Yeah. She said we must challenge traditional notions that confuse
• 15:34
  S3: love with control, and also that DV does not discriminate.
• 15:39
  S3: And just to explain the notes, they were sort of
• 15:41
  S3: diary notes, sort of like things that were written down
• 15:44
  S3: in a kind of a notebook. We think that they
• 15:46
  S3: were mostly from January, February, in those early months of
• 15:49
  S3: 2025 after the separation, and they were given to us
• 15:53
  S3: by Virginia's family in the US. And it really did
• 15:56
  S3: seem that, like at the very sort of end of
• 15:59
  S3: her life. This is a woman who had gone through
• 16:02
  S3: child abuse, two lots of trafficking. I mean, even before
• 16:05
  S3: Jeffrey Epstein, she was trafficked. And then this marriage, which
• 16:09
  S3: had its difficulties as well as its highs. And here
• 16:12
  S3: she was in the Perth wheat belt on her farm,
• 16:16
  S3: just thinking about what a healthy relationship was. And we
• 16:19
  S3: were really struck by that. It almost seemed like Carla said,
• 16:22
  S3: like she was thinking about advocacy in that area. She
• 16:26
  S3: was really engaged in what domestic violence kind of constitutes,
• 16:30
  S3: and very much the coercive control debate that we see
• 16:33
  S3: going on in Australia right now.
• 16:39
  S1: Well, it's an absolutely heartbreaking story, but we're so lucky
• 16:42
  S1: that we've had both of you reporting on it. So
• 16:44
  S1: thank you so much, Mel and Carla for your time.
• 16:47
  S4: Thanks, Sam.
• 16:48
  S3: Thanks for having us, Sam.
• 16:51
  S8: You can listen to all four.
• 16:52
  S1: Episodes of the podcast, Virginia on your favorite podcast app,
• 16:56
  S1: and make sure to check out Melissa Fyfe and Carla
• 16:58
  S1: Hildebrandt's feature at the age.com.au and smh.com.au. In the meantime,
• 17:05
  S1: here's a preview.
• 17:08
  S3: Virginia Giuffre helped vanquish a prince and a millionaire.
• 17:12
  S9: Prince Andrew's accuser Virginia Giuffre.
• 17:15
  S10: One of the most prominent and vocal accusers of sex
• 17:17
  S10: trafficker Jeffrey Epstein.
• 17:19
  S11: Outspoken survivors of their abuse.
• 17:21
  S6: I won't stop fighting. I will never be silenced until
• 17:23
  S6: these people are brought to justice.
• 17:26
  S3: But one of her toughest battles was a very private one.
• 17:29
  S12: I was really shocked that she hadn't broken something in
• 17:34
  S12: her face.
• 17:36
  S13: You're going to go there to protect her? That's funny.
• 17:37
  S13: I mean, hell, you're her biggest threat right now.
• 17:40
  S4: In Australia, our systems failed her.
• 17:44
  S7: It was the worst thing that could have happened to her.
• 17:46
  S7: Her children were her life.
• 17:50
  S14: I don't think any of us really understand what she
• 17:53
  S14: carried every day.
• 17:54
  S15: She was a fierce advocate for so long, and it
• 17:57
  S15: shouldn't have been on her to be advocating for herself.
• 18:02
  S4: Even in death, the conspiracies persisted.
• 18:05
  S9: Virginia Giuffre. That she was involved in a serious crash,
• 18:09
  S9: which has left her with just days to live.
• 18:11
  S16: Where she writes, quote, I am making it publicly known
• 18:14
  S16: that in no way, shape or form am I suicidal.
• 18:17
  S17: The story just doesn't add up for me. I believe
• 18:20
  S17: a shred of it at this point. I've seen too much.
• 18:24
  S3: Virginia. A podcast from the newsrooms of the age, the
• 18:28
  S3: Sydney Morning Herald and WA today out now.
• 18:40
  S1: If you or anyone you know needs support, you can
• 18:43
  S1: contact the National Sexual Assault Domestic and Family Violence Counselling
• 18:48
  S1: Service on one 800 respect 1800 737 732. Lifeline on 1311114 or
• 18:58
  S1: Beyondblue on 1300 224 636. Today's episode was produced by Josh towers.
• 19:09
  S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are
• 19:13
  S1: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like
• 19:17
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• 19:20
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