Latest / The Light Medicine Podcast / Treating Infections & Brain Diseases with Light Medicine | Ep. 11 with Martin Junggebauer

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Treating Infections & Brain Diseases with Light Medicine | Ep. 11 with Martin Junggebauer · The Light Medicine Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: What brain PBM does, it works directly against those three mechanisms.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the light, speci specifically infrared light, is absorbed in our mitochondria by cytochrome C oxidase, specifically by the copper center of cytochrome C oxidase.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I will not make it too complicated, but um it will photodissociate nitric oxide.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: So nitric oxide can bind two cytochrome C oxidase and kind of block the ATP production process.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: And because we photodissociate, meaning release nitric oxide from cytochrome C oxidase, we kind of remove that blockage and have more ATP production.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's one mechanism.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: And also there are electrons released that are important in that process.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: But this is very important just to understand in general, we improve mitochondrial function.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hello everybody, and welcome to a new episode of the Light Medicine Podcast.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, after a couple of best of episodes, we are finally back.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've been to the US for our main annual conference, which also brought us a lot of very good new content.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you can be sure that we will have more great guests over the next couple of weeks.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: But today I'm really happy that I have my good friend and research and business partner Martin Jungebauer as my guest.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: We both have a very similar background in development economics, global health.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: And Martin also specializes in neurosciences.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So he's actually a very good expert when it comes to antimicrobial photobiomodulation, but nowadays also on transcranial photobiomodulation.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so thank you, Martin, for being with us today.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start with you telling us a little bit more about your background and what brought you into this field of light medicine.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Robert, thanks a lot for having me.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Great to be here.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: What brought me into light medicine?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, it's you.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: So my story into PBM starts in 2010 when I meet you.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like back then, I had never heard about uh photobiomodulation.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think people didn't even call it photobiomodulation.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: People used to call it low-level laser therapy.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we were, yeah, back then still students over the next couple of years.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you told me quite a bit about what your dad does in his company, in his clinic, what you do, how you're involved.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: But things uh started becoming more serious when we finished our master's degree in 2013.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I was planning to do my PhD at our university in Marburg, but um, yeah, you actually came up with a very good um research idea.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: So your dad was um using photodynamic therapy in his clinic on cancer patients for a couple of years already.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you had that really great idea um to um yeah kind of study if we can use photodynamic therapy to treat infections.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that research project was super tempting.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: I really liked the idea of working with you, but also entering the medical field and yeah, having a pretty dynamic free life, travel the world.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I decided let's give it a try and let's see what's there.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and actually the research you were just referring to, the project we started um now already 13 years ago, um, yeah, was mainly the malaria research study.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we yeah, we're looking at infectious diseases in an acute stage, which are still like considered as like global killers with high annual deaths, especially in um yeah, in Africa.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, um, we decided on malaria to give it a try with the antimicrobial photodynamic therapy.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, before we went to India, so maybe this is also a little story to share, but then afterwards we shifted to Nigeria.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit from your perspective.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think maybe let me tell you how you explained that idea to me.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because first I couldn't really catch it, to be honest.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: But then you told me about an FDA-approved device for blood cleansing.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh a device called Mirasol System.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it um it would take out a small portion of your blood, half a liter.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an extracorpal blood desinfection system.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And what they do with their blood sample, they put a photosensitizer in it, riboflavin, and then activate that photosensitizer by UV and blue light.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the mechanism of um that photodynamic therapy protocol.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an FDA device, uh, approved device on the market since 2007.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a very solid rationale for that protocol.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, we had that interest in um, let's say, development in general.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like we studied political science first and global health.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so our idea was why not combine our medical interest and our political interest in that study and um find maybe new protocols that could benefit developing countries in some way.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it was a super tempting, but um, yeah, at the beginning, very difficult project because coming out of university, we didn't have a medical background, not much medical expertise.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have it now, I believe.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we tried to get funding for the first couple of months and realized, okay, um, without proper medical background, it's not easy to do.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how we started getting more involved with the company also.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: We realized, okay, we have to fund that study ourselves.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, then we looked for ways of funding it.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And one way was um like publishing our book.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I spent more or less the first two years just learning all about PBM, learning a lot from you, from your dad, from all the experts in the uh ISLA network.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, after two years, we had really um acquired pretty solid knowledge and were able to write our book.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that book actually financed our malaria study in the end.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And our first little study was, as you said, conducted in India.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the really uh the bigger study was then um I think we published that one in um 2021, so a couple of years later.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, because we had a really good research team in Nigeria, and um malaria, the most severe kind of malaria, plasmodium fasiparum, is the parasite causing it, is very prevalent in this state of on do in Nigeria.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we had good contacts to on do.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we had a proper setup to do that study and could finally launch it.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it was was a good success, right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually also important to emphasize here what you already explained a little bit about the background, because yeah, many of our listeners are probably familiar with photodynamic therapy.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um in the beginning, actually, we were looking into riboflavin or methylene blue, and methylene blue is very popular these days, so that's I think important to mention here.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: But when we did use methylene blue inside the bloodstream with red laser activation, it was always, at least in theory, the issue that it might be harmful to blood cells and due to the strong photodynamic reaction.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, we decided for riboflavin, also because of the technology you were already talking about, this Mirosol system, where they are just using riboflavin, so just vitamin B2 as a photosensitizer, and this is just yeah, very safe.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: We had all the um safety data from the in vitro research available, and therefore it was just uh a very promising and safe treatment pro uh protocol, which we developed for the study in Nigeria, and then I think yeah, we made two studies actually.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: The first trial run was with I think 20 patients, 10 in each group.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think 12 in each group, yeah, 24 for patients.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, and um I think this was already like very impressive that about 90% of our treatment group were basically parasite-free at the end of the treatment, if I remember correctly.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, correct.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we saw quicker improvements in our um PDT group.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to mention um the other group, our control group, received uh the conventional ACT therapy.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it works pretty well.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's a it's a rapidly working therapy against malaria, and the fact that we saw um even quicker improvements of symptoms and uh parasite clearance with our protocol was super encouraging.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that actually led us to the second phase of the study where we had well at least 120 patients, I think, in total, and 50 in the control group, uh 60 in the 50% in the control group and 50% in the treatment group.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, this was really encouraging to see that all the data from the first smaller group was totally confirmed.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think after the five treatment, what we did, or maybe you can explain a little bit more in detail the treatment protocol and um yeah, the results in the end.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so our PDT group uh received five treatments within nine days.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we treated people every other day.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we conducted parasite counts and looked at all symptoms after each treatment.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if I remember correctly, I think 30% of patients were already parasite free after two treatments.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think after four treatments we had 80% parasite-free, and yeah, almost, as you mentioned, almost everybody was parasite-free after five interventions.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: So the protocol was we used 200 milligrams of intravenous riboflavin, would be infused over half an hour, and then we would wait half an hour because it takes some time for the riboflavin to bind, and it binds very selectively.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's why it has so many uh so little side effects, because it has a 99.9% um selective binding to the guanine base of the DNA of our parasites.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we wait that half hour and then we have to activate the riboflavin, and it has two absorption peaks.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: It absorbs UV light and blue light.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, maybe interesting um to mention.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Before we um we thought about that protocol, we used a blue laser of 405 nanometers, and um, but we knew exactly um you have to match to hit the absorption peak of riboflavin like really, really perfectly.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we did we developed a new blue laser just for that study with 447 nanometers.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um so these are the two colors, UV light around a 380 and uh blue light around 447 to activate riboflavin.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we would um apply those colors, um, I think UV light for half an hour, blue light for half an hour, and then we would follow up by uh also using red, uh green, and yellow just to support the immune system, support mitochondrial function on a systemic level.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that was our protocol.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and this was actually the very first human in viro study on antimicrobial systemic photodynamic therapy.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: As we talked about, we already had the lab data from these systems in the US proving that you can basically get rid of all different types of pathogens, viruses, parasites, bacteria, fungi, everything in the blood probes just with riboflavin and blue and ultraviolet light.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, our malaria study was actually the very first published human study with amazing success.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, even though there is sometimes already an effective protocol with the ACT therapy, which you're already talking about, um yeah, I think it was very impressive to see that it was much faster the recovery or the parasite killing with our approach.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we will also or we would not expect on any resistance towards the pathogenes in the future, and therefore this is like drug resistance is a big issue, of course, when we talk about such diseases, and um therefore we feel that it's a very promising treatment for the future of all different kinds of infectious diseases.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what do you think?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: How does this translate into other um yeah infectious diseases?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because yeah, malaria is a big topic, but mainly in um yeah, countries in Africa.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, many of our practitioners are always asking us is the protocol or might the protocol be the same way effective for treating other viral parasitic conditions?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we can go back to that mirror soil system I talked about before.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So they did a lot of uh in vitro tests on different pathogens, as you mentioned, viruses, bacteria, fungi, parasites, and they saw significant lock reductions in all those pathogens.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: So and that's it's because it's a very generic mechanism of action.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's uh through the development of oxygen radicals that then oxidize lipids and proteins.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: So they kind of kill off the pathogens and prevents them from replicating.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, because it's a very generic process, a generic mechanism of action, it seems to work on basically all kinds of pathogens so far.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we have really good uh seen really good results on Lyme disease, chronic Lyme disease, hepatitis also.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: But even on a conventional flu, it has been used with good success.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I think there's a lot of potential.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what we have to keep in mind, the pathogens have to be accessible for light somehow.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: So uh why we why did we choose malaria at the beginning?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um was partly also because they have a development stage in red blood cells.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we could use the intravenous laser application to target uh the parasites.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something you always have to consider.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how do you target, where do you find those pathogens in your body?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a very good point, actually, that the treatment has proven to be very effective in acute stages of such diseases.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, but as you already mentioned briefly, we also see very good success in chronic infection, like Lyme, for example.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, the mechanism is probably a little bit different because we don't talk about a direct um yeah photodynamic effect in the bloodstream.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess there we need some more basic research about the mechanisms.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: We see if we see the improvements from a clinical point of view, but not everything is 100% um yeah clear about the mechanism.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are your thoughts on that?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot comes down uh to our systemic effects.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we support our immune system, especially white blood cells, um, are stimulated by by red laser, especially, but um we also support mitochondrial function, so we have more energy available, we um improve um perfusion, blood flow in our body, oxygenation.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we bring our whole entire body um into a stronger state, let's put it that way.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: We support natural processes and our natural healing mechanisms.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and even if it's not a direct photodynamic effect on a specific pathogen, the uh conventional, normal IV laser protocol with all five colors should have an effect because it it's simply it makes us stronger and brings our body back to a good, normal, natural function.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's actually a very good explanation.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, for everybody who's listening, either suffering from a um maybe chronic disease, chronic infectious disease, or if you're a practitioner and you treat a lot of such conditions.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we have very good, effective protocols available with a systemic light application in combination with good formulations of our photosensitizers.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to learn more about that, you can always feel free to reach out to us and we are happy to supply you with the protocols, the research, and yeah, all the related information on that topic.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe we can also in that context explain um how the blue light works.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's to a large extent, it's it's absorbed by uh fl flavoproteins and um porphyrines.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And these are uh present to a higher extent in bacteria, for example.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um bacteria with a higher prevalence of those molecules would absorb large portions of blue light, for example.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that would be what we call an endogenous PDT, endogenous photodynamic effect.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because through the absorption by porphyrines and flavoproteins, we also develop some oxygen radicals, and even without using a photosensitizer, we have a small photodynamic effect.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: That is actually something which is very commonly used in acne treatments in the face, for example, because here you don't need to penetrate deeply, you can just target topically with blue light, and uh we know that we have yeah, like natural photodynamic effects on the skin towards the acne in a very effective way.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: But again, if you have something in a systemic on a systemic level like chronic infectious disease, then you should go the yeah, intravenous or systemic approach with the light.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so let's move on to the next topic.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: As um I already mentioned in the introduction that your main field of work or your main expertise these days is actually transcranial photobiomodulation.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So basically everything related to brain issues, to neurodegenerative conditions.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's start with you.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um I know you're very good at that.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Please explain a little bit the mechanisms in not too complicated words, I would say, what is happening in the brain when we target our brain with red or especially infrared uh wavelengths of light.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't mind, I would like to give a little bit of context.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if we think about what makes up for a healthy brain, or on the other side, what are factors that cause neurodegeneration?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: A lot comes down to um a couple of things I would like to highlight.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: One one aspect are neuroinflammations.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: So neuroinflammation is really correlated to almost all brain disorders.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Not only neurodegenerative disorders, but also mental disorders, um, brain injuries, um basically everything you can think about.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um so neuroinflammation, chronic in neuroinflammation, of course, is very important to mention it has to be chronic, plays a big role in neurodegeneration and also mitochondrial function.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Most people only think about mitochondria as powerhouses of our cells.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's the most important task they have to fulfill, they produce ATP.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And keep in mind our brain is very energy sensitive.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: It only makes up for approximately 2% of our body mass, but it um consumes approximately 20% of our energy.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So meaning even a small shortage in ATP supply can have a large detrimental effect on our brain.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um that is one um aspect of mitochondrial function.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: But there are many more actually.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: For example, mitochondria also have to balance um oxidative stress levels.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because in in our mitochondrial respiratory chain, we need oxygen in complex four, um, cytochrome C oxidase, where we also have our main chromophore, our photoreceptor for infrared light.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: There we need oxygen because it's there it's reduced to water.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh back to my okay, so mitochondrial function.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um because we use a lot of uh oxygen in the mitochondrial respiratory chain, and it should only react in complex four, uh, where um oxygen is reduced to water.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: But there's always a chance that um oxygen might react prematurely along the mitochondrial respiratory chain.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it is common to happen in complex one and three, not so common in complex four.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And when that happens, mitochondria release reactive oxygen species.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And they also have a built-in antioxidant system, and it can run out of balance if we see mitochondrial dysfunction.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another thing that's very important when we talk about mitochondrial function in our brain.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Also, mitochondria have their own DNA, so they produce proteins that can only be produced within our mitochondria, and they're very important for brain function.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And plus, there are a lot of membrane dynamics going on in our mitochondria that affect other organelles.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, one more thing to dimension, now we have a model that describes mitochondria as information processing systems.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does it mean?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: It means mitochondria.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of uh sense the outer environment of a cell.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um so they will check for metabolic um um metabolites, um, for uh endo neuroendocrine uh signals and so on.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they will translate all those signals in um in signals that can be understood by other organelles or our nucleus, where we have 99% of our genome.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it has a large effect on our epigenetic regulation.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Consider mitochondria also as important epigenetic regulators.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: So this is just to give you a little bit of context.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Also, cerebral perfusion um, or let's say impaired cerebral perfusion blood flow to the brain is correlated to the onset of dementia, particularly, but also uh neurodegenerative processes in general.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And what brain PBM does, it works directly against those three mechanisms.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the light, specifically infrared light, is absorbed in our mitochondria by cytochrome C oxidase, specifically by the copper center of cytochrome C oxidase.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I will not make it too complicated, but um, it will photodissociate nitric oxide.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: So nitric oxide can bind two cytochrome C oxidase and kind of block the ATP production process.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And because we photodissociate, meaning release nitric oxide from cytochrome C oxidase, we kind of remove that blockage and have more ATP production.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's one mechanism.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And also there are um electrons released that are important in the process.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: But um, this is very important just to understand in general, we improve mitochondrial function that includes ATP output, but not only.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Then, because we um photorelease nitric oxide, I think most of your listeners, of our listeners, will know that nitric oxide is a very important signaling molecule, and maybe its most important function is to signal for vasodilation.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So meaning blood vessels widen and that will improve improve blood flow to our brain.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a second primary effect.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, um, because our mitochondria can now metabolize more oxygen, it kind of signals back to our body.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we need more oxygen now, so um we improve oxygenation in our brain.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: So these are uh three primary effects that are um caused by the um absorption of light in our mitochondria.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I would also highlight the importance of um glymphatic system enhancement.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: So uh our glymphatic system is our waste product, uh, toxin debris removal system in our brain.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's directly correlated um to neuroinflammation.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if our lymphatic system does not work properly, we kind of uh stay with all those toxins, all that debris, and we can't remove it properly.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, that will lead to um neuroinflammation.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And PBM can stimulate our glymphatic system by four mechanisms.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about improved blood flow to our brain.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we now have a higher blood volume in our brain, but of course um the total available space has not increased.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: So there's um an increased outflow pressure for cerebrospinal fluid.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Cerebrospinal fluid is a fluid, it's 99% water, and it's a fluid that is used in our lymphatic system to remove all the waste products.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we have um yeah, um a higher pressure for that to flow out of our brain.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Another mechanism is let's talk about for a second how um our galymphatic system works.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the cerebrospinal fluid flows in the perivascular space close to the arteries, and then it flushes into the interstitial space where it picks up all the waste products.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when it flushes from the perivascular to the interstitial plays, it has to cross a water channel protein called aquaporine 4.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, that water channel protein becomes more permeable after PBM.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: This was a very interesting finding.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another mechanism that can enhance lymphatic system function.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, plus, a small extent, a small portion of the infrared light will be absorbed by water molecules.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And um it will make the cerebrospinal fluid, I mentioned before, it's 99% water.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: It makes it uh less vicious, so it uh can can um flow more freely.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's another aspect how we can enhance our lymphatic system.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: So overall we have um that waste product system really enhanced by brain PBM, and that's a very important mechanism to reduce or keep neuroinflammations at bay.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, because of that, so these are um four very fundamental aspects of a healthy brain.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um because they are so fundamental, um, they kind of trigger um um a downstream cascade of different effects.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, these would include increased neuroplasticity.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: We see a really uh strongly enhanced BDNF, brain-derived nootropic factor values after PBM.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: We activate stem cells, we have an influence on our epigenetic um expression.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh mitochondria play a role, as I mentioned before.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there is, I don't know if you know that study, it was published last year.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um they treated um rats and irradiated the spinal cord area of rats and found that 1,300 genes reacted positively uh to that intervention.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we we saw an upregulation of many longevity um genes, a down regulation of genes um correlated with, for example, apoptosis.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: So these are um yeah, a couple of downstream effects that are also very important.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, thank you.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: That was a very good summary.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, everybody can really understand that there is actually a lot of science um behind transcranial photobiomodulation.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: There are hundreds of publications out there, so all the things you were just mentioning or explaining are all published in the scientific literature.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And also here, if you want to learn more about the mechanisms, um you can always reach out to us.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so coming a little bit more to the practical side of the application, so from your experience, both from the theoretical knowledge, but also from our clinical experience now, which is now also data collection from the last 10, 12 years.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you see the most promising applications of transcranial photobiomodulation?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you feel we have the best research available?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the best research is definitely out there on neurodegenerative disorders, dementia including Alzheimer's, but also Parkinson's, for example.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, all the mechanisms of action I just explained.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: These are uh processes that are going wrong in dementia and Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, neuroinflammation, mitochondrial dysfunction, impaired blood flow to the brain.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: These are all um core hallmarks of neurodegeneration, as I explained before.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so here we have a very solid um mechanism, a very solid rationale of how it should work.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we also have a lot of good studies that show exactly that, um especially on Alzheimer's and dementia.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think there is a review um that summarizes 36 studies, and I think they highlighted all studies somehow reported beneficial results for what was pretty remarkable.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that is the main indication.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Alzheimer's dementia on not only as a treatment for those, but also um as a preventive method.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because everything we talked about is a perfect preventive tool you can think of.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: If we move on and talk about Parkinson's, here um we have a couple of small human studies now, and they were also pretty expressive, still with small patient numbers, um, but um they saw significant improvements of cognition and mobility in those patients.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what was interesting, there is one study on which they conducted a long-term follow-up.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: So people were first treated uh in a clinical setting for three months, but then they would follow up doing a brain PBM at home for five years, and that study really looked okay.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um did the improvements maintain?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer was yes, and um they even saw more improvements over time.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that was pretty remarkable in a disease that yeah, only gets worse normally.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: So um that was really, really interesting.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there is now um larger trials on the way on Parkinson's on Alzheimer's disease, and yeah, I mentioned it's a very good preventive tool.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think that is also shown by research on cognitive function.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: So there are also studies, um, even studies showing that brain PBM could enhance cognitive function in healthy people.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: They saw um improved attention span, better memory performance, quicker reaction times, even in healthy people.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um so for sure, um it shows how good as a preventive tool it is.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And another domain uh are certainly brain injuries.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's also a lot of, I think around 30 human studies out there now on brain injuries.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um a hallmark of those brain injuries is of course also mitochondrial dysfunction, um, but also structural damage to blood vessels, for example.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, so maybe in that context, important to mention brain PVM can not only enhance blood flow in existing blood vessels, it also has um an effect on angiogenesis.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we kind of build new blood vessels, and that's also a very important mechanism when we talk about brain injuries.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: So these are mostly the degenerative disorders we can treat by brain PBM.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then there is um the whole field of mental, psychological disorders, depression, anxiety, PTSD.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's research is a bit more mixed in the outcome on those um that domain of brain disorders.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: But many studies also showed great results.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it makes a lot of sense if we think about depression, for example, also as a metabolic disorder.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not only psychological.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: We now understand that um our whole body is involved, um, inflammation levels play a big role, our gut microbiome plays a big role, but also how our mitochondria function, um, how our metabolism works on a whole whole body level.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: That is very important.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe a side note, um, there is a big review on depression.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And in the end, it recommended a combination of brain and systemic, meaning intravenous PBM.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because also by intravenous PBM you can um see improvements in depression.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, um and autism is maybe the last domain I would mention.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are this was just my question.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on children in general?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is a question which we are very often asked, and I feel this has a tremendous potential in the treatment of different issues uh of child development and autism and things like that.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, it is safe and possible to use brain PBM on children.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: You should use a device that allows you to downregulate the output power because you you would kind of at least partly calculate the desired output power um by by body weight.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So uh don't give full energy, but yes, it's very possible.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um there were um studies conducted on um young kids.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think of one study with an average age of 9.1 years.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: So they started treating young young kids from the age of five on by brain PBM.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and what what was observed in in autism are uh improvements in social communication awareness.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Those kids showed less uh restricted uh behavior, and maybe also interesting to mention stress levels of caregivers of the family were reduced.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So also on autism, we have interesting research.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, interesting.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so now translating it a little bit about uh into the field of technology.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the studies you were mentioning have been conducted, I would say, with kind of limited technology in the past, very often with more simple LED technology.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, as you know, as many of our listeners know, we now finally have this very first real laser helmet available, uh, which we are just launching, bringing into different clinics, into research institutions.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, what do you how do you feel about that, or where do you see the new technology will bring us to?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: I feel excited, uh, first of all.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like um I think having now laser diets as a source will really um enhance penetration properties of the light beam.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we can deliver um yeah, significantly more energy to cortical structures in our brain.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, what we know about PBM, there is a biphasic dose response.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um so um, if the dose you administered is too little, it basically has no effect on our human biology.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have a therapeutic window.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, we have to be careful not to overdose.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's why it's a biphasic dose response.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: We have a therapeutic window and we can overdose.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: But overall, I'm excited because in brain photobiomodulation uh you mostly have the problem that you do not deliver enough energy to the brain.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that should be uh significantly improved now.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: So um, a common question I always like to ask people uh when you take a look back and yeah, for yourself, is there any sort of personal success story or patient case which like really blew your mind where you would say this was so impressive that it really brought a lot of motivation um for myself to go into this field or something you can really like to share with the audience?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um of course I'm thinking about our common friend Ela, but I know you had her on your podcast before, so I'm not gonna tell that story.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: The father of my brother's wife suffers from um Parkinson's.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I gave him my helmet, and I saw him improving after, let's say, three or four weeks significantly, like before he was really um his mobility was really impaired, and his hand was shaking all the time, and um he was super slow in responding to people, like you could not have a good conversation with him anymore.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, he was using the helmet um I think four to five times a week.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And after two, three weeks we saw really a big change in in his whole energy, and yeah, he could go on longer walks, um, he could answer to people more quickly.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so um yeah, that that's maybe the biggest personal story I that comes to my mind.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Great, thanks very much.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Very nice to see.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so coming to towards the end, I know you also have your other new projects going on right now where you help people to yeah, I would say empower themselves to really get to their full potential.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um so tell us a little bit more a bit more about your new so-called Insights project.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: So Insights is a pretty comprehensive project.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it it combines uh integrative medical technology with um everything you can do in your life, in your lifestyle, and on a psychological mental level to support your health.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we talked about it.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I have a degree in neuroscience and psychology, and I know how important our mindset is when it comes to general health, but uh specifically brain health.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: And Insights is um first of all a program where I teach people about lifestyle adjustments, about mindset adjustments, and um that on a very practical level, about what everybody can do to support and take health in their own hands.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: And practically, it now comes as retreats.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm offering retreats for now non-medical, but they will soon transition to become also medical.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, it will include practical methods like breastwork, meditation, um, but uh there's a lot of knowledge transfer about what I just talked about.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the medical retreats, uh, they will uh bring in, of course, PBM, but also infusion therapies and uh many other um longevity or integrative uh medical technologies.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, my my long-term goal is to bring that all together in a medical center at one point.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully in a couple of years from now, yeah, we might be talking about um my or our center.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: For most likely it's gonna be for neuro regeneration.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, most important question now for audience: how do they find you?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want to share?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like your contact information.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're writing great newsletters which you just where you just launched one on the uh transcranial photobiomodulation.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just feel free to share all the contact information, newsletters, or whatever you would like to share with your audience.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you're right.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: There is a Substack.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's my newsletter.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: My blog is on Substack.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Light and Equanimity.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, feel free, feel free to subscribe and also connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also publishing articles on LinkedIn, so you can find me just by by looking for my name.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I also have a website online, but for now it's only in German and it's mostly about um mental psychological aspects and lifestyle aspects of health.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it will soon also have a portion about PBM.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: So for everybody who speaks German or basically everybody else, because you can now so easily translate websites, um, just go to my website martinjunkibauer.com.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: So just my name.com.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you can also reach out by email, of course.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you could use my my Weber email, uh, Weber Medical email address, just my last name, junkiebauer at webamedical.com.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, perfect.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think yeah, we talked through a lot of topics topics.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it was basically good for two podcast episodes.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: We um yeah talked about the antimicrobial protocols, but also about the brain research and protocols.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it was a lot of good content today.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: I really hope everybody enjoyed this episode.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I would like to thank Martin very much for his contribution.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, more to follow in the future, that's very probable, right?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Robert, thanks a lot for having me, and uh, thanks a lot for setting that great project up.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think it provides a lot of valuable information to so many people, and yeah, I'm excited to see your next episodes.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Take care, everybody.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, bye, everybody.