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PTO, Guilt, and Patient Care: The Truth About Missing Work in Healthcare · Banter At The Bedside

0:00
SPEAKER_04: I feel like I'm choosing between my kid, work, my health, their health, the de the teacher's health, my patient's health.
0:05
SPEAKER_04: It's like, I don't know what the is the right answer.
0:07
SPEAKER_04: And when I came back, I had lice.
0:09
SPEAKER_02: God forbid the sun beamed out on my forehead.
0:12
SPEAKER_04: Right.
0:13
SPEAKER_02: 105 degrees.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: God, sorry, guys.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, and welcome back here to Banter at the Bedside.
0:33
SPEAKER_01: It's I'm Abby and I'm one of your main co-hosts.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: We're excited to be talking to you today about what it's like to work in healthcare when you maybe don't feel well, you're coming off being sick, maybe you have someone at home that's sick or even working through pregnancy.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: We still have to come into work because there's no one there to replace us.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: We're here to share our stories, our experiences, and our opinions.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: As a reminder, this is not medical advice.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: Please seek the care of your own medical professional.
1:02
SPEAKER_01: This is for entertainment purposes only.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: Our thoughts and opinions are all of our own.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: We do not represent any entity at all.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: As always, we're joined by our other main co-host, Nurse Kaylee.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, welcome back.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: We're also joined by Nurse Cody, who is one of our reoccurring hosts.
1:22
SPEAKER_01: And then we're joined again by Dr.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: Jeff.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: He's here to talk to us about being sick.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, Dr.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: Jeff.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, thanks for having me back.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: We love having you.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: You're funny.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: I do want to point out if you listen to Dr.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Jeff's first episode that he was on about codes, and he was like, I've never had a code in the ICU.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Just a follow-up from that episode.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to tell it, Jeff, what happened the week after?
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I thought this might come up.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, like the week after I had three codes in the span of like uh hour and 30 minutes.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: And then since then, um, it's been one code after another throughout the hospital.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Um and the ICU.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: So it's I've probably been averaging probably you know two or three a week since that episode, Eric.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: You jinxed yourself.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: You jinxed yourself.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: So if you don't believe in hospital jinxes, Dr.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: Death proves it.
2:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's not anecdotal at all.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Not not at all.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: It's it's not just how the hospital behaves.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: I really wanted to talk today about coming in, working while sick, physical illness, viral bacterial illnesses, all of us coming to the hospital or to our healthcare facility and having to kind of work through that.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Work through even sometimes our family being sick, what it's like when we have to leave a sick child or a sick parent or a sick loved one at home and come to the hospital and can and take care of other people while we know we're leaving someone at home.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, I thought I would just kind of open with a story that it might be a little triggering because even when I tell it now, I'm like, ooh, that was bad.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: But when I worked in my nursing home, so I was like 21, 20, I didn't really know my kind of rights.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: I got strep throat and I was a nurse tech.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: And I tried, I tried to call out.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Like I called, I was like, I got antibiotics from the free clinic on campus, and so I just can't come in.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I don't feel good.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't come in, I shouldn't be around the residence.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: And the nurse manager on at that time, he was like, I need a doctor's note.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Okay, well, I have a note from the free clinic on campus.
3:44
SPEAKER_01: And he was like, No, they'll just give you a note for anything.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Like, I need your actual doctor.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Well, that's three hours away because I'm at college, like this is a college town, so I can't do that.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And it essentially, like, it was a slight back and forth, and he essentially is insinuated that if I didn't come, I'd be fired.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: He's like, Well, you better come or there's going to be consequences.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: And so I show up and they're like, You just have to wear a mask.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: We put you down the hospice hallway.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: So we had like different sections, so we just had one hospice wing, which had a max of eight residents, so it was slightly easier if no one was like actively passing.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Or like, we put you down that hallway so that it will be easier for you.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Okay, like could barely talk because my throat hurt.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: And then one of the residents down there, she was still alert oriented on comfort care.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: And I come in with my mask and she's like, What's wrong with you?
4:42
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I have strep throat, they wouldn't let me call out, so I'm here.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: She was like, I don't want to get strep throat while I'm dying.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: Get out.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, That's a fair point, but I need the money.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it was just like, there's so much pressure for me to come.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: And I just feel like that that is something that a lot of people experience, or what kind of happens is that there's like just this pressure of like, well, there's no one to replace you.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: So like we'd rather have you here sick and put a mask and gloves on you than no one.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: So what are your thoughts or stories?
5:19
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, strap.
5:19
SPEAKER_04: We'll just put you down at the hospice.
5:21
SPEAKER_04: It doesn't matter.
5:22
SPEAKER_04: They're gonna they're gonna die anyway.
5:25
SPEAKER_04: They're they're here to die.
5:26
SPEAKER_04: That makes me think about something during COVID when they would say, like, well, you can work while you have it, you'll just take care of the COVID patient.
5:32
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, we'll just put you guys all in the COVID ward together.
5:36
SPEAKER_04: So, because it was yeah, I guess some places were so short-staffed.
5:39
SPEAKER_04: They're like, No, it's fine.
5:40
SPEAKER_04: You you have COVID, the patient has COVID, y'all can just stay together all day.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: Everyone can just have COVID together, a little COVID party.
5:47
SPEAKER_04: Now that that was not anything like where we worked.
5:49
SPEAKER_04: I had just seen that around where they were talking about possible ways to manage people having to work while they were while everybody was sick.
5:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's kind of interesting.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I I feel like probably a lot like you guys, um, I grew up in unless you were like throwing up or you couldn't stay out of the bathroom, like you were going to school, you're doing all, you're doing everything that you're supposed to be doing, right?
6:14
SPEAKER_00: And now nowadays it seems like the the rule of thumb is you, you know, there's a policy that most places have um put in place where you have to follow whatever the policy is, it kind of varies company by company.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: In Abby situation, they're just like, well, we still need somebody to come in and work, so you're just gonna come work sick.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, it's to their benefit and it's more convenient for them.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: You're kind of just like thrown to the wolves with your illness and being expected to come into work anyways.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: But if it was a time where they weren't strapped, they're like, How dare you come into work if you're if you even have the sniffles?
6:49
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
6:50
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna call out.
6:53
SPEAKER_03: Cody don't care.
6:55
SPEAKER_03: Cody's not gonna come to work say anymore.
6:59
SPEAKER_03: He's gonna call out now.
7:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I used to not call out.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna call out.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: When you used to not call when you used to not call out, why didn't you call out then?
7:10
SPEAKER_04: Well like was it with your work ethic where you just needed the money, you didn't want to use your PTO?
7:14
SPEAKER_04: Like why would you go to work instead of calling out?
7:17
SPEAKER_02: I guess I just felt like I w was gonna get in trouble for calling out.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: There's a few occasions I should have called out, but it's another story.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: Another day.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: A different hospital.
7:31
SPEAKER_01: I will say, I think like generationally, like it it's weird to call out to a hospital because you're calling like you're calling your direct coworker, like you're very rarely calling like a manager or like a leader.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, at least as a nurse, you're calling your charge nurse who sometimes is like your direct colleague.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: And I just remember there were times when I would call like a charge nurse, and they would be like, Well, are you sure?
8:01
SPEAKER_01: Are you sure?
8:02
SPEAKER_01: And there was like just this generational difference of like some of the older nurses being like, It's fine, you're fine, come on in.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: Or like questioning, like, well, what are you really sick?
8:12
SPEAKER_01: Are you really sick?
8:13
SPEAKER_01: Are you going to the party tonight?
8:15
SPEAKER_04: I hate that shit.
8:16
SPEAKER_04: Why what's wrong?
8:17
SPEAKER_04: None of your business.
8:18
SPEAKER_04: I'm not coming to work.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:20
SPEAKER_04: I don't ask people.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: I never asked people, but definitely there was definitely like a generational thing.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: And I remember there was one at my when I was a bedside nurse, and she would if we had to call out to her, it was always like, Oh my god.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: And I like had just a terrible migraine once.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I can't even like stand.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: And she was like, Are you sure?
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Are you sure?
8:41
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Yeah, I'm I'm sure.
8:44
SPEAKER_04: Don't gaslight me.
8:46
SPEAKER_04: My head hurts.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: My head hurts.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm sure.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: But I feel like that's some of the some of it too, is then you like call and you're like, Well, could I work?
8:55
SPEAKER_01: Could I get through this?
8:57
SPEAKER_01: Especially if it's not like like Jeff said, like a throwing up or like a fever, like things like a migraine.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: That's like it's debilitating to me, but it's not, it's not a communicable thing.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: It's not something that people can even like visibly see, but it it is painful.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: It does have a lot of side effects and symptoms.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, well, yeah, like could I could I work through this?
9:24
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Should I?
9:27
SPEAKER_01: For my own health, should I?
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: So, like, no, I'm not coming in.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: But I think I think that's like I think, especially after COVID, people give a lot more grace than we used to for like coming in with like, like, don't come in with a fever.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: Our team, and I see you.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: If you have sniffles, you get corn.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: If you're like everyone on the team's like, what are you doing?
9:51
SPEAKER_01: You're going to get all of us sick.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: Get out.
9:55
SPEAKER_01: And Jeff knows this because he's did you get kicked out, Jeff?
10:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I also quarantined myself a little bit too because I feel bad, right?
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't have a fever, so I wasn't breaking any rules.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, there was a there was a time there when I went into the ICU and I was sick like three weeks in a row.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: So like week on, week off, but I was sick, it seemed like for a month and a half.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: And uh, but yeah, I would I think what happened was is I started uh picking up shifts in the ER again, and then um, you know, I was just around a bunch of you know, runny-nosed kids and people with poor immune systems.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: They just gave me every viral upper respiratory tract infection all in like a six-week time period, and so I would come to work and just feel terrible.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: And it's probably a bit of an exaggeration, but I mean, I was just I felt god-awful, and I worked through it all week, and then I would be off, and I would start to feel fine again, and I would pick up a shift like Tuesday or Wednesday on my week off, and then I would be sick again starting like Saturday night, and then I would be sick for another seven days.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I came into the office, and you know, our offices are partitioned off, and so I kind of picked the spot that's as far away from people as possible, and I would just sit in there, even I would sit in there with the mask on, and everyone else, the other, the other attending that was on, they all sat in the seats, they all sat in the big room where every with everyone else.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'd be in there like heat turned up on a blanket, just like sitting there, just like, oh my god, what is the dick?
11:36
SPEAKER_01: That's miserable.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: But he would walk, he would walk in and we'd be like, go to your side, get away from them.
11:44
SPEAKER_04: Unclean, unclean.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: We would do sign out, and I'd be sitting in the doorway, kind of like leaning in, like, yeah, he would.
11:54
SPEAKER_04: He'd be like, Yep, that's what happened.
11:57
SPEAKER_04: But well now too, since COVID, like I do think people are more apt to at least like wear a mask, even if they're not sick, but if they're like like if I have like the sniffles or my throat doesn't feel right, and I'm like, I feel fine, but like something could be brewing.
12:10
SPEAKER_04: I'll just wear a mask while I work, where I never would have done that before, which I don't know why, but um, I feel like you see a lot more people doing that.
12:18
SPEAKER_04: I which is very courteous.
12:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: It's funny now because now you kind of get angry if somebody's like coughing and sneezing around you and you don't and they don't have a mask on.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: You're like, you just hand it to them, you're like, go put a mask on.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: Don't get me sick.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: Get out of here.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: We well, we had the typhoid, we joke about a typhoid Mary situation in our office back in COVID, where someone did come in at the tail end of like didn't have a fever but was still coughing, came in, and then slowly each one of us throughout the office ended up with COVID, and it was like a whole month because it was so slow to move throughout.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: So it was a whole month of all the NPs and PAs getting it, and so it was like a whole month of us being short staffed because we kept each getting COVID because of this one person, and it was like one of the new PAs had a double ear infection, which is not catchable, it was it was like not catchable, and we're like, get out of here, go home.
13:27
SPEAKER_02: You know, I never got COVID.
13:30
SPEAKER_02: Lucky.
13:31
SPEAKER_04: Are you serious?
13:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and even when I was like what my friend got COVID, took her to work one day, drove around, never got it.
13:39
SPEAKER_02: My brother got COVID, didn't know it, took him to the airport, picked him up from the airport when I knew he was COVID positive, never got it.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: Went all the way to Croatia on the flight back.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: My friend, two of my friends got um COVID over there, never got it.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: We need to we need a sample of your blood.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say if Cody disappears, it's because someone's come and stolen his first blood.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we can edit this part out.
14:09
SPEAKER_04: Like, what are you bionic?
14:11
SPEAKER_04: How did you never get it?
14:12
SPEAKER_04: I don't understand.
14:14
SPEAKER_04: I lasted a while, but then it took me out hard.
14:17
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: Our our typhoid Mary took me out.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: And then and then that's when I came, I came back to the hospital.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: I was COVID-free, but I was still so weak and sick from it because I couldn't eat um and had been in a bed for over seven days.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: But I came back to the hospital and I was like sitting waiting to do an intubation.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: The nurse forgot to label the paralytic and the sedation, so I'm like standing there getting just like getting weak, and I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, please figure the drugs out, and then intubated everything was fine, and then went and laid on the bathroom floor of the hospital because I was like so like weak, and I was like, I just need to lay down.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't feel well, so I'm like laying on our bathroom floor, just like these cold tiles feel better than anything's ever felt in my whole life.
15:11
SPEAKER_04: God, you know.
15:12
SPEAKER_04: Oh god, it's bad if you're laying on the bathroom floor in the hospital.
15:17
SPEAKER_04: It felt so good.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: Did you get anything else besides toilet from toilet?
15:22
SPEAKER_01: No.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: I I did leave the bathroom when I when I gathered my strength, I left the bathroom and I was like, guys, I think I'm need to go home because I just laid on the bathroom floor because I feel so good, good idea.
15:34
SPEAKER_04: Well, I have a question for the physicians.
15:37
SPEAKER_04: What do you guys do if you are sick and you have to call out?
15:40
SPEAKER_04: Do you have to find somebody to do you personally have to find somebody to like cover?
15:43
SPEAKER_04: Or is there like a system in place?
15:45
SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, that's a good question.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: So um I don't know what it was like before I started.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I have a feeling that the system we have put in place now is because of that.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: But at this point, there's always somebody who's on call.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: And so um you we work a week on, week off.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: And so this is probably the third time I said that this podcast alone.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: On our weeks off, um, every I think like three months, you have to do a week of call.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: And essentially, whoever calls out, you just have to go in and cover for them.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: So it could be one day, it could be three days, it could be I'm on consults one day, and then I'm on Mickey another day, and then I'm over in Kelly.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: It just it just depends.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Um the part that gets a little bit tricky is if one of the pulmonologists calls out and a critical care person is on call.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, usually then they have to like talk amongst the pulmonologists and somebody has to find a way to cover the palm service.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, it's it's interesting because it's interesting or more annoying.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's anything that makes me more irritated than when I'm on call, and then I get called, then I get a text message.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey buddy, we need you to come into work tomorrow.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, uh yeah.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, I feel like that's most people, and you know, fortunately for us, it doesn't really happen a whole lot.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: In terms of like the my APP group, we don't have anyone.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: So if one of us calls out, we'll send out like a message to our group to see if anyone can come in.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: But if no one can come in, there's there's no one, and you can't float, like as Dr.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: Jeff just kind of touched on.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Like, if one of the pulmonologists calls out, he can't cover the palm console.
17:38
SPEAKER_01: He can't cover palm clinic because he's not a pulmonologist.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the same is for the APP.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: So an APP on like the hospital service or in the neuro ICU, like they can't just always pop over to our ICU and cover us.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: Some ICUs and some facilities, like they share APP groups, and so that makes it easier, but it's still like there's no float pool like the nurses have, there's no backup, or oh, you're you can pop over and work in NSICU or down on you know the floor unit.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: It we don't have that backup, so I feel like there's more pressure since becoming a nurse practitioner.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: Like, I have to come in.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: Like when I got into my car accident um last year as I'm driving into work, like because I was the only NP on that like thankfully someone could come in, but I couldn't come in.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: I'd just gotten into a car accident.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: If no one could come in, then the it would have been the doctor alone that night covering the whole ICU.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: You still came back too early, yeah.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: I did.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: I did.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: I will admit I I had a concussion.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: I thought I was fine.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: I didn't have any headaches for a whole day at home.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: I was fine.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: The ED doctor told me once I was headache free, I could go back to work.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: So I had it was two days after I was like, I'm fine.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: I have had no headaches.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: The ED doctor said I could go.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: But again, it was this pressure of if I don't go in on night shift, there might not be anyone to go in.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: Like, we can't guarantee it, or it's going to strain my team.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: Someone on my team has to pick up extra.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: So I went in, and about 45 minutes in, I was it I had like the worst headache of my life.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: I had so much pain, I was nauseous.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Cody was there, and Cody was kind of like my I don't want to say assistant, my partner in helping.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, the you know, the doctor on was very kind and sent me home early and was able to manage the unit.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean it there was a lot of pressure.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: I felt pressure, not from my team, but from my role um that I had to come in and pressure of if I don't come in, it's leaving my physician alone.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: And that's a lot of patience for one person to take care of alone on ninth.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: And it could cause harm if we don't have enough staff.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: So if there's not enough staff because I I'm not coming in, like that's where the pressure comes.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: And maybe I think too big picture to down far down the line and come up with stories in my head, but that's kind of my thought process.
20:39
SPEAKER_04: So no, I think that that's just part of being a conscientious person.
20:44
SPEAKER_04: But you know, the job we work, it's 24 hours, it never ends.
20:49
SPEAKER_04: Like you you don't just clock out and go home and that's it.
20:51
SPEAKER_04: Somebody else has to take your spot for the most part if you're at the bedside.
20:55
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
20:55
SPEAKER_04: Um and I think that's part of it, like I think Jeff says, just how we were raised.
21:00
SPEAKER_04: Like you go to school, you go to work.
21:02
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then a lot of it's like I don't want to leave somebody else have to take over for me, like putting more burden on other people.
21:09
SPEAKER_04: And ultimately, you know, you just want the patients to be able to have the care that they need.
21:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
21:13
SPEAKER_04: So it's hard.
21:14
SPEAKER_04: It's like, it's not like, you know, people who, well, I'm sick, I couldn't go into the office today, I'll just work from home.
21:19
SPEAKER_04: We don't have we don't have that option at the downside.
21:22
SPEAKER_04: Um so it's tough.
21:25
SPEAKER_02: I think when I was younger, I was able to go to work and muster through it.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: But the older I get, I'm like, I tried like I throw my back out three times in the past year.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: The first time uh it was like, I'm gonna be fine, I'll be fine.
21:39
SPEAKER_02: But meanwhile, walking around punched by and the charge was like, just go home.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: Take a take a quarter of an occurrence and go home.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: And so this last time I took my back out, I was like, mm-mm, mm-hmm.
21:55
SPEAKER_02: No, I'm calling out because I was literally laying on the kitchen floor, so I was like,
22:01
SPEAKER_04: I've worked with a bad back and it severely I mean it made my recovery so much worse just trying to come into work.
22:08
SPEAKER_04: I don't even think I made it through a whole shift just like you.
22:10
SPEAKER_04: And I've learned now I'm like if that happens, I'll just take the day or two that I need and then I'll be fine.
22:16
SPEAKER_04: But if I try to go to work, especially trying to like pull on patients and stand up all night, it's it's not it's not good.
22:24
SPEAKER_04: You can't mess around with stuff like that.
22:27
SPEAKER_04: You just take an occurrence though.
22:28
SPEAKER_04: They don't, you know, there's no excused absences for us.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: I get the sense that we're all kind of pretty strong-willed individuals who kind of like push through a lot of stuff that maybe we shouldn't.
22:40
SPEAKER_04: Um no, no.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, like you were saying, like, if you're sick, you're supposed to call out, but a lot of times you feel guilty about doing that, or sometimes you just flat out don't, right?
22:53
SPEAKER_00: You come into work anyways.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: As I've spent more time in the hospital in in you know, in this career, you know, I kind of think a little bit about how we're all there to take care of people.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: And so I kind of have a new outlook on calling out of work if you're sick.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: And that is that if you're sick enough to where you think that your ability to give 100% and give everything you have to the patients that you're taking care of, if that component is compromised because of how sick you are, then that's a good enough reason to call out of work.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: Which isn't something I really thought of because I was like, well, if I can show up and I can make it through work and be there, like that's good enough.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: But honestly, when it comes to taking care of people, it's really not.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, what do you guys think?
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, has your outlook on doing that changed over time?
23:49
SPEAKER_00: Or is it still kind of like it has been?
23:52
SPEAKER_04: It's like one of those things where it's like, do as I say, not as I do.
23:57
SPEAKER_04: Like, I I if somebody else asks me, I'd be like, No, definitely you don't need to come to work, stay home and recover and don't feel guilty.
24:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
24:03
SPEAKER_04: But then when it's me, I I do think my perspective has changed.
24:06
SPEAKER_04: I do think that I'm more likely to call out instead of coming to work.
24:11
SPEAKER_04: But sometimes if I look and I know that we're already short, if it's something I feel like I'm okay and I'm not like infectious, I'm just still gonna come.
24:19
SPEAKER_04: Um you know, and that's just yourself as a person.
24:23
SPEAKER_04: If you have kids or animals or whoever at your house, like that's a whole nother thing.
24:28
SPEAKER_04: Cause like maybe I'm fine, but now they're sick and they have to stay home from school and I don't have an option, then I have to call out because I don't have child care.
24:36
SPEAKER_04: So sometimes it's like I've used up or me, whoever, maybe used up your call outs because your kids were sick.
24:42
SPEAKER_04: And so then if you call out when you're sick, you're actually gonna be in trouble.
24:45
SPEAKER_04: So you're like, Well, I'm just gonna go.
24:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: Because the second you run out of your call-outs, you actually get sick and then you have to go to work.
24:59
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
24:59
SPEAKER_04: And there is no excuse, there is no excuse to absences.
25:02
SPEAKER_04: Like it doesn't matter if you have a doctor's note.
25:03
SPEAKER_04: We it doesn't matter.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: There was one time I had done so I had to help set up a clinic in India.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was at an orphanage, and when I came back, I had lice.
25:17
SPEAKER_04: Every time you travel, something be happening to you.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: It's all part of the growth.
25:24
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, okay.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm prepared.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: But I came back in gay fever.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: I came back and I knew no one would want me on the unit with lice.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, blinking with your hair?
25:35
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, might have to close the whole building down.
25:38
SPEAKER_04: How many lice would have been in Abby's hair?
25:40
SPEAKER_04: Oh my god.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: It was bad.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: It was so bad.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: They were so big.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: I didn't call out though.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: I didn't call out for lice.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: And um, I just remember one of the nurse managers how hard I would laugh if somebody was like, I have lice.
25:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, I called my manager and I'm like, well, I'm not really sick, like I'm not debilitated in any way.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: I can function, my head just itches, but I do have lice.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: Like she's like, Don't you dare come.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Okay.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I had to call out each day, and it was a weekend, so then a different covering manager was on the next day.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, the reason?
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: Nah, that would have gone to the grave.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, Cody, you don't have to worry about okay.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
26:30
SPEAKER_04: Well, they can get in his beard, they can get in your beard.
26:34
SPEAKER_04: Cody's gonna be like, yeah, I have lice, but like, bitch, shut up.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's what happened.
26:43
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's what happened.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: But I had to call each one.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: I had to call out each day, and the nurse, the second nurse manager was like, Well, you can still work.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I mean, I can, but what if we what if I give lice to the patient?
26:58
SPEAKER_04: You kind of have to wear the the tightest cap I ever seen.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: I did not go to work with lice, but I think, yeah, like I think people when we talk about it, it's always the like fever, the illness, like the feeling sick.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, like when you have kids, you have to and they're sick, you have to call out if you don't have childcare, if you have lice a thrown out back.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: Like it's not always just like, oh, I have a fever, I have a viral illness, too.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: It's like physical things, but or mental things.
27:29
SPEAKER_04: I mean, we're talking about being sick, like physically ill, but there's some days when it might be easier to work if I was physically sick than working in like a mind space if I've got something going on.
27:40
SPEAKER_04: Because I mean, mental health is health, and yeah, everybody's got their own things.
27:46
SPEAKER_04: And sometimes if you're not able to focus on what you're doing, it's just as bad as trying to work when you're, you know, physically sick.
27:53
SPEAKER_04: And I think we all do that, and that's not something that we talk about as much.
27:56
SPEAKER_04: There's no mental health days.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: No, not not in critical care.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I have another question for you guys.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: When you guys miss work, what happens?
28:04
SPEAKER_00: So, like, do you have to come back in a different day to make up the day that you missed, or do you just like miss out on a part of your paycheck?
28:12
SPEAKER_04: If you if you're sick and you have PTO, they're gonna make you use PTO.
28:17
SPEAKER_04: So you'll use they'll you'll just use PTO for it, so you'll get paid.
28:21
SPEAKER_04: Um So that's what happens, but we don't make it up.
28:26
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: It's not you guys have to make it up.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: The doctors have to make it up, the nurses don't have to make it up.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: We our setup is for the nurse practitioners for us, it's more and what I know kind of across the board is usually closer to um like what regular jobs are, like a regular nine to five kind of setup are.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: All my nurse practitioner friends and all the other systems, it's the same.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: We have a sick time, we have PTO time.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: And if you call out sick, you use your sick time.
28:58
SPEAKER_01: And if you don't have sick time, you don't have sick time.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: But with the nurses, they don't most facilities, you don't start getting PTO until you hit your 90 days.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: And so if you're sick in those 90 days or something happens, then they will go without a check.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: They will go without paying.
29:17
SPEAKER_04: And see, the problem is if you run out of your PTO, and let's say, like, you know, things happen unexpectedly.
29:23
SPEAKER_04: But say you have some sort of chronic illness or something has flared.
29:26
SPEAKER_04: If you run out of PTO, you're not getting a paycheck.
29:28
SPEAKER_04: If you're not getting a paycheck, then you're not earning your benefits.
29:31
SPEAKER_04: And so then there's this whole bad spiral of, well, now you've lost your benefits and you probably need those because you're so sick that you can't come to work.
29:39
SPEAKER_04: So then you try to get an FMLA, but you haven't worked enough to get, and it's it can be really bad, I think, for people with chronic illnesses.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it doesn't even, it's not even things like, oh, you're sick in chronic illness.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: Like they go out on maternity leave and they come back with like next to nothing and PTO because they used it all for their maternity leave, and then the the baby goes to daycare for the first time, and as babies do, they get sick, and then you don't have child care because they can't go to daycare, so you have to call out, but then you don't have any PTO because you were just on maternity leave for three months.
30:13
SPEAKER_01: So it is kind of like so.
30:16
SPEAKER_04: Then it's like as a mom, it's like, do I try to send my kid to daycare sick?
30:19
SPEAKER_04: And hopefully they don't catch me.
30:21
SPEAKER_04: Hopefully, they don't get another kid sick.
30:23
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's it's really tough sometimes.
30:26
SPEAKER_04: Um, and look, ever everybody's kids go to sick go to daycare sick.
30:30
SPEAKER_04: Like that's just how it is.
30:31
SPEAKER_04: There's immune systems are great when they leave there.
30:33
SPEAKER_04: My kids went to daycare, but it's tough.
30:35
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure it's tough for dads, but it's especially tough as a mom to be like, I feel like I'm choosing between my kid, work, my health, their health, the day, the teacher's health, my patient's health.
30:43
SPEAKER_04: It's like, I don't know what the hell is the right answer.
30:46
SPEAKER_04: But whatever I pick, I'm gonna feel guilty.
30:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: And guilty no matter what.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Always guilty.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: As a mom, Kaylee, has your kid ever been one of your kids ever been like so sick, but you've gone to work and their dad has like watched them?
31:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
31:00
SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
31:01
SPEAKER_04: Um so like when they were little, if like the were their dad they didn't the place he works doesn't have occurrences like we do.
31:10
SPEAKER_04: They don't keep up with your absences.
31:12
SPEAKER_04: So like we would just Yeah, I know.
31:15
SPEAKER_04: We would just weigh the benefits of like, well, I'd have to use PTO and miss out on this like shift if or I'd get an occurrence.
31:22
SPEAKER_04: So sometimes that would happen.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: Um, we didn't have family that were just near that could help most of the time.
31:30
SPEAKER_04: I mean, the odds are I'm not working if I was only working three days a week, but there were plenty of times when I came to work and he stayed home just because the big financial benefit was better.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: What was there any like guilt of like, oh, I'm leaving my sick kids to come to work to take care of other sick people?
31:50
SPEAKER_01: Or no?
31:51
SPEAKER_04: There was not like a guilt.
31:55
SPEAKER_04: Yes, just because it's like I would rather be taking care of my kid and like making sure they felt good.
32:00
SPEAKER_04: But I knew that they were with their you know parents, so I f didn't feel as bad.
32:05
SPEAKER_04: But you know, I have a job to do and I it's no small thing.
32:09
SPEAKER_04: If if my kid's taken care of, then I'm gonna go take care of these patients.
32:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: I know when I don't know Pete's nurses probably are I d I just know when my mom had cancer and it's like I'm at the hospital taking care of people and I'm not at the chemo with her, like, or I'm not able to be there for the surgery because I have to be here and working, and it was like a prioritization of like when when could I take time off and um be there with her, but there was I did always kind of like have a sense of guilt some as I was like taking care of other people, and then it's like I'd have a mom and their daughter would be like sitting bedside and I'm like, that should be me.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: I should be with my mom.
33:01
SPEAKER_04: Um Yeah, I'd the family members who can like work from anywhere and they come in.
33:06
SPEAKER_04: I think that they're you know that's that's so nice.
33:09
SPEAKER_04: They're very blessed to be able to have a be able to, you know, have a support system when they're in the hospital.
33:14
SPEAKER_04: But I would be the same way.
33:15
SPEAKER_04: I'd be like, Well, I I don't know what I'm gonna do if they won't because they won't just let you take uh leaves of absence very easily.
33:25
SPEAKER_04: You have to have so much approval.
33:27
SPEAKER_04: And I don't know, it's just a it's a lot.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: But on the other side of that, it's a lot because if people aren't if we're not there, the hospital can't close.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: Like, and we all understand that too.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: Like, so that's kind of like the push and the pull.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: This is not a business that ever closes.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: This is not like my husband's business.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: Every fourth of July and Christmas week, the whole business shuts down.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: Everyone gets those weeks fully off, and the business still is operational and runs.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: That never happens for us.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's kind of like the other thing that I was thinking about with this topic is like, man, like there's businesses where if everyone called out, if everyone got sick and called out, it would be okay for a few days.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's not us.
34:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:15
SPEAKER_04: No.
34:15
SPEAKER_04: And people too, it'll bother me a little bit.
34:18
SPEAKER_04: Um, and they'll be like, I don't understand how you have like so many call-outs.
34:22
SPEAKER_04: You only work three days a week.
34:24
SPEAKER_04: Or so I've heard people say things like this to people or about people.
34:28
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, yeah, but you you can't help when your kid gets sick, or you can't help when you got into that car wreck.
34:33
SPEAKER_04: Like, you know.
34:34
SPEAKER_04: Like, would you have gotten that car wreck if you weren't going to work?
34:37
SPEAKER_04: It's like, we work, a lot of nurses work three days a week, three twelves, but it's the amount of time you would work all week, and that's doesn't negate like you can't help when you get sick or something happens.
34:48
SPEAKER_04: So I don't know.
34:49
SPEAKER_04: Or when it hits people say that.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: When it hits midshift, like you go in fine, and then halfway through you're like, oh crap.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're like, I feel like that's that's but I've seen that happen to Jeff, Dr.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Jeff, a couple of times.
35:05
SPEAKER_01: Those were a couple of the times he came in in the morning, bright-eyed, bushy tails, and then by lunch we're quarantining.
35:11
SPEAKER_04: We're like, get away from us.
35:14
SPEAKER_04: That's how fast it can that's how fast it can happen.
35:17
SPEAKER_04: But what I do think, and I would love to hear from people who work at different hospitals, like if your hospital has a policy that says you can't work when you have a fever, so you don't come to work and you can prove that you have a fever, why isn't that an excused absence?
35:31
SPEAKER_04: Because you're just complying with a policy.
35:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
35:33
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was during COVID.
35:35
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but if you were sick for any other reason, you still got in trouble.
35:38
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, but I still have a fever.
35:40
SPEAKER_04: Right.
35:40
SPEAKER_04: It doesn't matter.
35:41
SPEAKER_04: It's not the right type of fever.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: It's not like how dare you have a fever and follow the rules.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: You're in trouble.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: And then we're gonna use that.
35:48
SPEAKER_04: Can you make that make sense for me?
35:50
SPEAKER_02: Did they just curious um check your temperatures during COVID on your way in?
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Did they really scan our forehead?
35:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's like you don't yeah, you don't remember.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: They're like, you're cold.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: It's there's if I'm 33, I'm dead.
36:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm not walking into work.
36:07
SPEAKER_04: Or they're like remember that I think I blocked that out.
36:10
SPEAKER_02: You don't remember.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: It was never like an accurate temperature.
36:15
SPEAKER_02: It was always like, all right, you're good, you're 94 degrees.
36:18
SPEAKER_04: The infrared those things are they'd suck.
36:21
SPEAKER_04: They did it to the kids going to school.
36:23
SPEAKER_04: I remember that.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they did it to us all the time.
36:25
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, my kids have been running around, they're hot.
36:27
SPEAKER_04: What are you talking about?
36:28
SPEAKER_02: God forbid the sun beamed down on my forehead.
36:31
SPEAKER_04: Right.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: 105 degrees.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: It's just a shirt.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: There's no sun protection.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: There's no lice there, but it's it's heating up.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: My favorite part was they gave everyone those thermometers to take home with them.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: And then they used a different thermometer when you got to the hospital.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: And if your temperature was high, they'd be like, all right, just wait a couple minutes, and then they would redo it.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: You're like, okay, you're good now, go.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
37:04
SPEAKER_04: I remember we had to key in every morning before we came to work this little thing in the tracker that says I'm not sick, blah, blah, blah.
37:10
SPEAKER_04: And like, if you had it was like an attestation you had to do, and then they changed it by saying, like, okay, well, by clocking in, you're saying all these things, and then it finally went away.
37:19
SPEAKER_04: But yeah, I don't think that you should get punished for following the policy.
37:23
SPEAKER_04: No.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, I agree.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Why would it be a rule if they didn't want you to follow it and then they're gonna penalize you for you know following the rules of your contract, it makes zero sense.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess that the attendance policy is supposed to be generous, it's not the best system and it it needs a lot of work.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: So if there are people listening and their system has it figured out or fig somewhat figured out, let us know because I'm really interested in hearing.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: But Jeff, I do have a question for you, another question for you.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: What is it like in residency when you guys are like sick or like I don't know, anything happens, like someone passes away.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, how does that work in residency?
38:08
SPEAKER_01: Because you have to like hit a certain number of hours, right?
38:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, so I've got I've got at least one, I've got one good story about this, and then after I get done explaining all this.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to when it comes to the hours you put towards in residency, whatever rotation you're on, you have to do so many shifts.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: And so many, and if you don't work a certain number of shifts, if you have other parts of that rotation that have it's like so many hours with um some other educational component that you have to meet.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, the number I heard quoted a lot was 14 shifts to make the rotation count.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: So basically two out of the four weeks.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: Um but when you have to call, it's it's interesting because I feel like as we as I went through residency, so my residency was pretty long.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh excuse me.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: Java's getting sick again.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Are you sick?
39:17
SPEAKER_04: It's it's the it's the hangover, it's the night shift hangover.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: It's the night shift.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, so my residency was kind of long, so it was um like residency fellowship together was all six years.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: But as I went further on into residency fellowship, you could see that it things had shifted from people being able, people who like didn't really call out at all, to now all of a sudden people were calling out for whatever.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so like the few times that I had to call out, the process was easy to call out.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: You just called the the chief resident and told them you weren't gonna be at work, and they would have usually I mean, they kind of went overboard.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: They had like first call, second call, third call.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: And so if the reason why they did that is because usually the people that were on call, they had like a pretty easy rotation that they were on where they weren't in the hospital a lot, or there was like a week of vacation built in somewhere, so they would need backups.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: Um usually if you were third call, you're like, oh, I'm good.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Um I don't have to worry about being called in this month.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: But if you were second call, there was a lot of instances where the person who was first called didn't have anything going on, they were still in town, and they're just like, Hey, you have to come in and work, and they'd be like, Oh, well, I can't come and work, I'm not coming in, just for whatever reason.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: And so they called the second call person, and then they would be required to come in.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: And crazy enough, this happened to one of my co-residents.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: The first call person said, No, I'm not doing it.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: So they called the second call person.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: They also were like, No, I'm not coming in to work.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: And so they called the third call person, and they could work, but they had just got done like moonlighting or something like that, and they got in a ton of trouble in because they were they were like moonlighting and they couldn't work because they were working.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh and and the funny part was is like you guys shouldn't have even called me to begin with.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: There's two other people who are in town who are not doing anything.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: They just said no because they didn't feel like it.
41:39
SPEAKER_04: But I didn't know that was an option, yeah.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: If I would have known that, I would have just said no as well.
41:46
SPEAKER_00: That's so they didn't go in and they were working another job at the same time.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, the third person wasn't expecting it.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: I do want to I do want to just say I I don't I didn't know that there were three backup calls.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: Like that's crazy.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's crazy.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: I didn't wow, that I feel bad for that third person.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: Cause you really like really if three if if I'm getting called in, things better be.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: If I'm the third, things really better be.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: Shit better be hit in the fan or something.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: The original person on shift called out the two backup people called out, so now you're the fourth person.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's crazy.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: That's four people, and not like there's a catastrophic event or you know, typhoid Mary came into the unit and got everyone sick.
42:32
SPEAKER_04: Seriously, like everybody's we all know something happened.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that you guys had such a backup, significant backup.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: That has at least kind of hopefully made you feel better to be like, okay, I'm not, I can't come in.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's at least three other people that could should be able to come, should be able to come in, I guess.
42:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: The better.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was still.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, back then I was still kind of young in my like career, just because I, you know, schooling just took forever, but I still had that mentality of no matter what, I'm coming into work.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: And so I would, when I was a resident, you know, I would come into work just so sick, and it like, and I was like, that's just what you do.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: And then um, it was probably kind of like a naive view on what it means to call out of work, um, just because then you'd hear about other people calling out of work for whatever reason.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it used to irritate me because I'd be like, you know, I can't believe that they would call out of work for that.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, how could they do that to people that they work with?
43:42
SPEAKER_00: Like they just don't care.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: And um, that's kind of how I saw it.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: But that, you know, that's why I kind of asked that question when we at the beginning was because things have changed a little bit.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there was a pre COVID world in the hospital, and then there's a post COVID world.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: I do think.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: That that is one of the benefits from COVID is now the culture of coming into work sick is changed.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's changed significantly.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: Like pre-COVID, we would not have yelled at anyone to get out of the office and go home post intro during COVID and post-COVID world.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Get you get out.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: We don't want you here.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: We'll figure it out.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: I'll work alone.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: I'll be the only NP on shift.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: I'll cover all the patients with my physician.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: Do not get me sick.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: But that uh kind of goes like hand in hand with the story I have for you.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: So towards like the end of my residency, right before jumping into fellowship, had to been probably halfway through residency because the person that I had trained with, it was like kind of in the middle of COVID.
44:50
SPEAKER_00: And he he just came into work like you're supposed to, you know, came into work, showed up for a shift, did everything that he needed to.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: And apparently somebody like didn't write something down.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, because we all had that's when we were doing the temperature checks, and he was he went to work, and they were so strict about this that a police officer came in with a security camera footage of him to the ER and was like showing everyone the picture, like, hey, do you know this person?
45:22
SPEAKER_00: Do you know this person?
45:24
SPEAKER_00: Went around to all the attendings, like, who is this person?
45:26
SPEAKER_00: Where do where are they working at?
45:29
SPEAKER_00: And um, I just remember the one attending sitting in the room that I was in.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: He was sitting there reclining in his chair, looking at the board.
45:36
SPEAKER_00: They showed him the picture, and it was clearly one of the residents.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: And he's like, I've never seen that man before in my life.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: So the attending alive.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, big time.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: That's a real he doesn't work anymore, but it was the most baller move I've ever seen.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: He's like, I I've never seen that man before in my life, and there is no other resident that looks like this guy.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: He's unmistakable.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: And at that point, that that resident had been there for like he that resident had been there for like four years, I think, at that point.
46:15
SPEAKER_04: I I can't believe it.
46:17
SPEAKER_04: So, like they forgot to write his temperature down, so they were like patrolling to find him to make sure he didn't have a fever.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, the story's a little bit loose.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe they didn't write his temperature down, or he's like, I'm not doing this, and just like went through.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm not really 100% sure.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: Police officer with them showing his picture.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the police hunted him down in the hospital.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: I feel like we have that there there's better things we could have done than that.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: But that seems like a waste of resources.
46:43
SPEAKER_04: Okay, was the technique no, but well, I say that, but the parking police do that every day, so like how mortified I would be if an officer showed up and like, come here.
46:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:57
unknown: Yeah.
46:58
SPEAKER_04: I'd be like, wait, don't you want to cuff me first?
47:01
SPEAKER_04: I was like, me and Kaylee both had the same response.
47:05
SPEAKER_03: No.
47:06
SPEAKER_04: Oh no.
47:10
SPEAKER_04: Sorry.
47:11
SPEAKER_04: Oops.
47:12
SPEAKER_04: Oopsie doopsie.
47:13
SPEAKER_04: No, that was a joke.
47:15
SPEAKER_04: God, that was a joke.
47:16
SPEAKER_02: It's a joke.
47:17
SPEAKER_02: Did y'all have it where like when if someone went out sick with COVID, they couldn't come back until they tested negative?
47:25
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that shit changed every week.
47:27
SPEAKER_04: It was something we wouldn't.
47:28
SPEAKER_02: I was like, they didn't go, and because they would get paid, like the hospital would give them like COVID pay, so they didn't have to use the PTO.
47:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, dang, I wish I had COVID.
47:35
SPEAKER_02: But um Yeah, you never got it.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: No, that was the ask when I would wish I did get it.
47:41
SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna pay me to, I'll be asleep for about three.
47:43
SPEAKER_02: Because that's where one girl was out for two months.
47:45
SPEAKER_02: They're like, her test just isn't coming back negative.
47:48
SPEAKER_04: I'm like at first it was like you had the test, and then it was like, Well, if you've been a fever all for this long and don't have symptoms, and or and it went through all the iterations till finally they were like, Oh, it's just gonna show up positive forever.
48:00
SPEAKER_04: So if you've and then it was like, actually, if you had it yesterday, but you slept last night, go ahead and come to work.
48:06
SPEAKER_04: And then they're like, Well, if you didn't sleep, that's fine.
48:08
SPEAKER_04: Go ahead and come in, um, and we'll just put you with the COVID people.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: It was it got real weird, it changed all the time.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: Cody, I think you had one story too that's kind of like I think probably is like signifies like the turning point of like no, this like don't come to work sick.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, I really do think that there was a turning point in healthcare.
48:32
SPEAKER_02: This happened I was still a traveler.
48:36
SPEAKER_02: This happened like around the time that my mom got like super sick, like right before she passed.
48:41
SPEAKER_02: And we're at work, and this no one on the unit was COVID positive this night.
48:48
SPEAKER_02: And this nurse, she was actually one of my well friends, but she had a duck bill on, and we're like, What is why is she just walking around with a duck bill?
48:58
SPEAKER_02: Like, no one's on isolation, and then she proceeds.
49:03
SPEAKER_04: Like a 95?
49:05
SPEAKER_00: A 95.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I thought you actually meant like a fake duck bill.
49:10
SPEAKER_04: I was like, wait, let's clarify a 95.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: They called it a okay, a 95.
49:15
SPEAKER_02: So then she proceeds to like come, she like set away at first, like away from the nursing station in like her little cubby, and then she like walked over to the nursing station where we all were, and she was like, I tested positive for COVID.
49:29
SPEAKER_02: Why are you near us right now?
49:31
SPEAKER_02: Like, you should have called out, and then she was like, Well, I that's not the policy, yada yada yada.
49:38
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I said you should have called somebody.
49:40
SPEAKER_02: I said it, another nurse said it, other nurse said it.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: And so the night went on, and then I had made like a comment or something, she didn't like it, and so I printed out the policy.
49:53
SPEAKER_02: Come to find out that she knew the policy, I printed out the policy and it said you have to call this person, then this person, then this person, and she didn't like that.
50:00
SPEAKER_02: She thought I was being mean.
50:01
SPEAKER_02: I was like, Well, it's the policy.
50:03
SPEAKER_02: I said some of us have immunocompromised parents that we had to go home to, and I can't risk getting sick from somebody who's just being negligent and irresponsible.
50:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
50:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:14
SPEAKER_02: Let's fast forward two weeks.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: That's on purpose.
50:16
SPEAKER_02: Right, let's fast forward two weeks, my mom dies.
50:19
SPEAKER_02: And then she thought this is so morbid.
50:23
SPEAKER_02: She thought it was from her that she got me sick, then I got my mom sick.
50:29
SPEAKER_02: I was like this close to like maybe I should just let her believe it.
50:33
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I did let her believe it for a second, but she believed it for a second, probably for long enough to feel bad.
50:41
SPEAKER_01: Not the cancer.
50:42
unknown: No.
50:43
SPEAKER_02: You did it.
50:45
SPEAKER_02: You killed my mother.
50:48
SPEAKER_04: Do you you feel good about yourself now?
50:50
SPEAKER_04: Why did she tell you?
50:51
SPEAKER_04: If you're gonna come people people just don't have to keep their mouth shut.
50:55
SPEAKER_04: My god.
50:56
SPEAKER_04: It wasn't killed my mother, prepared to die.
50:59
SPEAKER_02: It was like you're mad at me for getting mad at you for not wearing a mask.
51:06
SPEAKER_02: Like, your anger towards me is unjustified.
51:10
SPEAKER_02: You did something wrong, you should have came to work sick.
51:13
SPEAKER_02: First of all, you feel like crap.
51:15
SPEAKER_02: Call out.
51:15
SPEAKER_02: She's also one of those people who literally called out all the time.
51:19
SPEAKER_02: So she was on like a final warning, like, you can't call out.
51:22
SPEAKER_02: So this is why you have to save your PTO and your call out.
51:25
SPEAKER_02: So when something does happen, you aren't killed out here killing people's mothers.
51:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she didn't kill your mom.
51:37
SPEAKER_03: You don't know that.
51:38
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:40
SPEAKER_03: She sees this You're killing my mother.
51:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
51:46
SPEAKER_04: I just can't believe she told you.
51:47
SPEAKER_04: Like, if you if you have to come, whatever all the reasons that you came to work, you're wearing the mask, whatever, but like I was gonna say it though.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: She didn't just tell me, she tell like she taught her to the first time.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm saying, though.
51:56
SPEAKER_02: That's stupid.
51:57
SPEAKER_02: The nursing supervisor came to the floor and then she asked her a question.
52:00
SPEAKER_02: I was like, drama, you know you're in the wrong because you're telling and asking everybody, trying to get justification that you possibly are in the right, but you're in the wrong.
52:11
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
52:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:13
SPEAKER_02: You call out for paper cut, but you won't call out for COVID.
52:17
SPEAKER_02: Goodbye.
52:18
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Nick.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: Do you guys have a uh time like when you called out that you felt really bad or really guilty about it?
52:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, is there like one one specific time?
52:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, I did as um it it always seems for me whenever I'm too sick to work or my car accident or whatever is when I'm on nights.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: And the way our staffing is on nights is it's just me and a physician.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: I always feel bad when I can't come in on a night shift, or if someone helps cover me um because I can't come in, they're working extra nights, and those that's just really hard to like flip-flop.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: And then when I got into my car accident, like I felt bad then and having to be out with my concussion and dizziness.
53:04
SPEAKER_04: You never but you never call out though, that's the thing.
53:07
SPEAKER_04: No, like you don't, and you cov you cover a lot.
53:10
SPEAKER_04: Like when you're talking about if somebody else has to be.
53:12
SPEAKER_04: I know that you go in and cover a lot of those shifts when you're not scheduled to work.
53:18
SPEAKER_01: I don't get sick though often either.
53:22
SPEAKER_01: COVID's been the only time I've been gotten sick and I got real sick.
53:26
SPEAKER_04: I think the only time I feel g that I can remember that I felt guilty for calling out was because I was um too hung over to go into work.
53:35
SPEAKER_04: And I just felt like that was something completely within my control and I didn't plan well.
53:43
SPEAKER_04: Um I mean, that was many years ago, obviously.
53:49
SPEAKER_04: I would never do that now, but um I did feel bad because I was like, that's unprofessional.
53:54
SPEAKER_04: Like you knew you had to work, you shouldn't have gotten, you should have drank that much.
53:57
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I should I I definitely didn't need to go to work in that state, so you know.
54:03
SPEAKER_02: I ever felt bad.
54:06
SPEAKER_02: Because I'll never really call out.
54:08
SPEAKER_02: Nah.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: Mm-mm.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: Mm-mm.
54:10
SPEAKER_02: Because I know when I'm there, I actually work hard and I don't when I call out, it's not for I don't feel like going in a day.
54:18
SPEAKER_02: It's actually for a legit reason.
54:20
SPEAKER_04: I also feel like I've been a person who has always picked up extra.
54:25
SPEAKER_04: I've come in when they might say, like, hey, we don't have a charge nurse for the shift.
54:28
SPEAKER_04: Can you work?
54:29
SPEAKER_04: Like, yeah, sure.
54:30
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, I think we're probably not the problem people, so we probably don't have much to feel guilty about.
54:38
SPEAKER_04: I'm not saying if you call a lot your problem, I'm just saying we don't tend to call much.
54:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
54:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
54:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: You help.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like a tally.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: What about you, Dr.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: Jeff?
54:49
SPEAKER_00: So this is uh this sounds it sounds really bad, but I promise you guys can ask my wife and she will vouch for me.
54:58
SPEAKER_00: And this was over like a two like a two-year time span.
55:02
SPEAKER_00: And so when we're in training, you get either Christmas or New Year's off a whole week long, right?
55:09
SPEAKER_00: And so I would, and this was, you know, this is when there was different strains of COVID kind of going around, and the difference between the northern part of the country and the southern part of the country were wildly different just because we're a little bit more rural out here, and so things didn't spread quite as fast.
55:31
SPEAKER_00: And so it seemed like my family up north, every time I would talk to my father, who works um at the time for an EMS company, um, he would tell me about you know when things were coming through.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: And I we could expect it probably about I don't know, a month and a half, two months afterwards.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: That's when it would hit us really bad.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: And so I would go back home for Christmas, and then I would start to like not feel good at the end of my week off, and I would drive home, and then I would get home, and then I would be sicker in a dog for like a week on the couch, just fever, sweating.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: My wife would just be like, What you know, do you need anything?
56:14
SPEAKER_00: She would like go get me soup and gatoring, just like, hey, I have to go to work.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: Here's all your stuff, here's your stuff for the day.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: And then I would call, and then I'd have to call out for a week.
56:24
SPEAKER_00: So it looked like I was off for Christmas and New Year's for two years in a row.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: That's and I was like, I feel like such, I felt like such a POS, but I was like, but I was like, But you're not enjoying New Year's.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: You're not enjoying it.
56:40
SPEAKER_01: You're just like, yeah, the optics of it looks terrible.
56:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it looked so bad.
56:45
SPEAKER_00: And one of them, one of them, my following, and it always happens where Christmas and New Year's is at the end of a rotation.
56:52
SPEAKER_00: And the one year, my rotation after that, I was like on a rotation where I just didn't have to be in the hospital.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: I was doing something else, so it looked like I was off for like six weeks.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it looked so bad.
57:06
SPEAKER_01: The optics look bad, and I think sometimes that's where some of this pressure comes from, too.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: Like you can be at home, but the optics, and and we know that the optics of it being on the other side can look really bad.
57:18
SPEAKER_01: Like it can look so bad, like, oh, of course they're calling out on on New Year's.
57:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, of course.
57:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, no, I'm actually at home sick.
57:28
SPEAKER_01: And and because you also know when you're at work and someone calls out and the optics don't look well, you also hear what people are saying, like, oh yeah.
57:38
SPEAKER_01: So it's like you know the chatter that happens, and I think that's where some of that pressure comes from, too, is that chatter that really doesn't need to be happening.
57:47
SPEAKER_01: If someone's not there, none of us need to be talking about it, truthfully.
57:51
SPEAKER_02: Because I never really think about if someone calls out, I don't really think like, oh my god, they called out.
57:58
SPEAKER_02: How dare they?
57:59
SPEAKER_02: Now, when I was in management, yeah.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: Well, you had to.
58:03
SPEAKER_02: He's all called out.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
58:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, please come to work.
58:06
SPEAKER_02: But now I'm just like, I don't actually would prefer you call out.
58:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't want to do it with you.
58:13
SPEAKER_04: Well, this is the thing about the hospital.
58:15
SPEAKER_04: Like we say the hospital never closes.
58:16
SPEAKER_04: The hospital is always gonna figure it out.
58:18
SPEAKER_04: That place is always gonna run, it's always gonna do something, it's gonna stay running.
58:22
SPEAKER_04: And none of that is worth you coming to work when you don't need to be at work.
58:27
SPEAKER_04: So you don't need to feel guilty if you're sick, your kids are sick.
58:30
SPEAKER_04: Maybe you really do need a mental health day.
58:32
SPEAKER_04: You know, take it.
58:33
SPEAKER_01: The hospital's always gonna figure it out.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: The hospital will always figure it out, and that's what I tell people now, too.
58:39
SPEAKER_01: It's always gonna figure it out.
58:41
SPEAKER_01: We will, the team will always figure it out.
58:43
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to worry.
58:45
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, any final thoughts from anyone?
58:48
unknown: No.
58:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been fun.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: These have been some really great stories.
58:53
SPEAKER_01: If you're still here, make sure you hit the like, follow, leave us a comment.
58:57
SPEAKER_01: Have you come to work sick?
58:58
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever felt guilty?
59:00
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a crazy story?
59:02
SPEAKER_01: Did the police come searching for you in COVID?
59:05
SPEAKER_01: Have you had the lights?
59:07
SPEAKER_01: Tell us.
59:08
SPEAKER_01: We've shared a lot today.
59:11
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, from all of us shift talkers here at Banter at the Bedside.
59:16
SPEAKER_01: We'll see you later.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: Bye.
59:18
SPEAKER_03: Bye.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: If this felt your kind of conversation, make sure you're following.
59:23
SPEAKER_01: Leave us a review, and we'll see you back here soon.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: Bye.
59:28
SPEAKER_03: Step into the light where the stories come.