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Is parenting with Shame a good thing? · Head Shrink Inc.

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, we're gonna talk about shame today, whether it's a good or a bad thing.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, welcome to Head Shrink Inc.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: You are here with Doc David.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and Dan.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: And the counselor guy named Dan.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're both um licensed mental health professionals, and we like to talk about relationships and um things that relate to relationships, pop culture, all kinds of things.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: So today Dan's written a blog post about shame.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I mean you say it's a bad thing, and and I read like I do all of your things, I read through them.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, I skim through them.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: And uh so I I was I was thinking hashtag sad.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: I was thinking, um I don't necessarily think shame is always a bad thing, but you would probably disagree.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yes, let me let me let me pull pull back a little bit.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I did a meme as we do, we meme, and I put it on Facebook, and I think I'm gonna do this from now on.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'll put out like a controversial meme and then like write a blog based on people's reactions because people were like losing their minds because they were defending shame, like shame's so great, and I'm a parent, and I shame my kids, and they need to feel shame, and we have all these societal problems because kids weren't shamed enough.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I I interacted with a lot of people who are defending shame, and the main question I had was what evidence do you have for connecting these societal problems with a lack of shaming?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason I was asking that question is because there's a lot of evidence that shows shaming actually contributes to problems, it doesn't negate problems.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I I think I had a link.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Psychology Today has a lot of articles by really well-written articles about from psychologists who were talking about the evidence against shame-based parenting.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I I was reflecting on all these comments and I wrote a blog because one person asked me basically, okay, if you're telling us not to shame our kids, then what are we supposed to do?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the impression I got was like, other than shame, what is parenting?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I you know what I mean?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like is so I don't know, I I think people are so so connected to shame, like they need it.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's the only way they know how to parent people, I guess.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, I chances are that they were shamed themselves, right?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: If we if we go with the idea of we do how we do life how we were raised, we we raise our kids how we were raised.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, and that that doesn't always fit, but I think that like when it's like these big hot button issues like shame, for example, that's definitely probably how that person was raised.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, oh I agree.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I asked this on the blog, or not the blog, but the uh the Facebook post, how do you define shame?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because I mean, I have a meme, you know, you you you're not really nuancing anything or providing caveats or qualifications.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's a meme, it's supposed to provoke.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: So when people are reacting to it, they are basically saying, Well, if I can't shame, then how am I supposed to keep my kid accountable and give them discipline and consequences?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I basically said, like, you can all those things are appropriate for parents.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I coach parents on on doing all those things, having rewards and consequences, accountability and discipline and structure.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: All those things are vital for parents and child development, and all those things don't require shame.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: So people were just like, What?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: Who it's just like what kind of crazy talk are you talking about?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: So so I I I wrote this blog out of a reaction to this conversation that we're having on Facebook, and so what I want to I'm calling it the parent toolbox.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's I want parents to expand their if if if you're dependent on shame, okay, that's great.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it's gonna it's not great.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's not great.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: So so here's here are the problems with shame.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Shame um is ineffective, so it it doesn't actually discourage bad behavior and promote good behavior.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: What it does is it just kind of gives gives the message to your kid, don't bother me.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's what it what it is.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I I want clear I want clarification because so are you saying all shame is bad, or are you saying shame within the realm of parenting is not a good idea?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Within with as a parenting strategy, I think shame is a terrible choice.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, because I mean shame is used all the time, I think, for in the in the legal system, you know, that you have to go in front of like when you go when you go and testify in front of a judge over a speeding ticket, you have to do that in front of a lot of people.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: And that's pretty shame shaming, I think.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't think maybe the intention is not to shame, but it's like definitely an embarrassing moment.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of shame.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: There's a embarrassing moment.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: Or every once in a while you see a judge that gets a the the punishment is you have to wear this sandwich board and walk out on the street that says I'm a thief or I stole from somebody.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and I've seen it, they do that with kids, but they also do it for adults.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean, I don't know if I don't know the benef the benefits of that, if that like really makes a person not want to steal again.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it does.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: But like we're talking specifically within the realm of parenting.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, and there's other cultures too that are shame-based cultures.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you and I are familiar with the Bible, and so that was written from the ancient Near East first century, and so that was a shame-based uh culture.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, y I'm not I'm not necessarily even thinking on a societal level or a cultural level.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking just as a parenting strategy.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to modify your kid's behavior and discourage bad behavior and promote good behavior and build a relationship with them and build certain qualities in your kid, like taking responsibility, being honest, respectful, having self-efficacy, shame does not work for those things.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's ineffective.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I mean, again, it's a meme.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: You can't explain a lot, and I'm what I'm talking about is specifically to uh just parent strategies.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um should should we define shame?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: How do you define shame?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I was thinking sh shame I'm sure there's a technical definition, I don't have it right off the top of my head, but I think of shame like in parenting is your kid does something, and so then you resort to um ridic ridiculing your kid or comparing them to the kid who doesn't do these things in order to um cr try to change behavior.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think one of the things I was thinking of, like when you consistently shame your kid, what I think it teaches your kid is to go underground with whatever it is that whatever that thing is that you're shaming them about.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um whether it's talking to a friend that you don't want them to hang out with, whether it's looking at porn, whether it's using right, using drugs or something like that.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um I mean it may work for some kids temporarily, but I think if you do it consistently over the long term, kids are kids and adults, they're just gonna go underground with whatever it is.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think shame is when a parent attacks a kid's identity based on their behavior.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: So if a kid lies, then the parent thinks of them as a liar.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like that the way it's all encompassing as well.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's all encompassing that that action, that behavior you just did now becomes your identity.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm not gonna say you lied, I'm gonna say you are a liar.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's gonna shape all future conversations.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's always gonna be in the back of my mind, okay.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm talking to them, but I know they're a liar.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I'm gonna kind of put them in that box for the future.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: That to me is shame, and and the reason I think people react to that is because it's like, well, what if they did lie?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: I and I am in no way saying if you remove shame from the equation, you never talk about bad behavior.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: I would I would point parents more towards the guilt route.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Guilt is more about uh focusing on the action or the behavior.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: If your kid lies, they lied.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Keep it in that terminology.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: They are who they are, all the all the qualities that you know them to be of the good and the bad, and in addition to that, they have their behavior, which is um, you know, so I think that's a little bit different.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I guess in Western cultures, we kind of have the individual, like their identity and their behavior.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there's a benefit to that, at least in our context, that's what the evidence is.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's I think that's hard.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: I was just with the family last night, where I think it's hard because what I suggested to the family last night is when an incident comes up, instead of piling on, like you have this big pile of poo, right?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so then, oh, here's the kid, they just did something else, let's pile that on the poo.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so then at some point you just have this big pile of poo, and that's who your kid is.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Instead of looking at each individual incident as an individual incident and then moving on from that.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the problem is if your kid keeps doing the same thing over and over that's becoming this big pile of poo, then you need to address that.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: There's something else going on.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: But if your kid like lies one time, then a week later comes late for curfew, then you know, three weeks later gets caught doing something.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't if you just pile all that onto this big pile, then that is gonna be like that does contribute to the shame idea.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when parents do that, they're dismissing the positive.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, because it's like, oh, he lied last week, he came in late today, and he's not telling me about this other thing.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: When really, like that is a very selective picture of what's going on.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because you have to dismiss, like, oh yeah, he did the chores without being asked, he, you know, gave me a hug the other day, he gave me a compliment, he helped out with his siblings.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna disregard all that and focus on that one lie, that one late curfew, yeah, and this other thing, and I'm just only gonna see that.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's shame.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's you're doing that because that's what you learned to shame people, and it's like you you gravitate to that.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: People who like shame-based parenting, I think gravitate to that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the interesting thing about you describing that is that then it's not actually about the kid, it's about the parent.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's about the parent.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: And being able, I think being able to see that on your own, like, oh, this is about me, is next to impossible.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's why it's it's helpful to have a therapist type person kind of point it out to maybe that it's something to look at and consider.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I worked with a parent the other day, and they basically said to me, All my woes in life are due to this kid.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it and it and it basically like so extreme.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: This parent basically said to me, like, all her problems with parenting, like all the all the difficulties that come with parenting, like, you know, you you basically you don't get to take care of yourself, you're always taking care of somebody else, right?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: And you never get a break.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Hooray, parenting, it's expensive, and you you know, you don't get any meet time, and so she basically said it's all his fault because of him.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, that's like you you're you're taking things that are outside his control and making making him responsible.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Forget the fact that she had sex with somebody to get pregnant and then had a child, and then yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: But that's a lot of pressure to put on a kid.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I mean, so it's like that's part of shaming is saying you're always this, you're never doing well, you know, you're always this one thing, or you're never this one good thing.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's about identity.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's basically this is who you are, and any good things you do, I'm gonna dismiss, and any bad things you do, I'm gonna highlight.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so to me, that's about shame.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and what it does is basically what you said, kids um don't kids lose respect and trust for their parents at that point.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: They don't see their parents as having authority or influence because they don't think parents are credible.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: If parents are just gonna always see the negative, then it's like, why should I listen to this person?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then the second thing is is it forces their bad behavior underground.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that they're gonna stop doing the bad behavior, they're just gonna get better at keeping it secret.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think basically I think a lot of that's because they're trying to avoid that conversation with the parent.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: That that shame conversation.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: What would you what would you okay?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: So if a parent's listening to this and they're thinking, okay, maybe am I a shame-based parent, what would be what would you say would be some thing, some key phrases or some things that they they're not gonna go to a therapist that then kind of do a self-evaluation to determine, oh wait, maybe this is me, maybe I'm doing these shame-based things with my kid.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um maybe two things, and you can throw in a couple, I'm sure, is keep keep an eye out for absolute language coming out of you.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're saying you never or you always, like if you're putting it in very absolute terms, then that means you you probably uh your your perspective of your kid has probably been shaped in a negative way.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to expand it out a little bit um to relationships with significant others.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think if you if you say these things to relate to anybody that you're close to, chances are then you have a shame-based relationship with them as well.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then the other thing I would say is uh you know, i if if your if your focus isn't necessarily on behavior, so I I'll give you an example, and it my wife like I think she's forgetful, but in my in my mind, I I don't see it as like individual events.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: In my mind, I've painted her as forgetful.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that actually really hurts I know it sounds minor, because I mean it's like the keys or her phone or whatever, but I I she reacts with pretty strongly because I think it really hurts her feelings, and I think it's you know, I'm I'm kind of evaluating myself now.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Is um I don't see her as having forgotten this thing, I see her as a forgetful person.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I'm thinking about it now.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just the pile of poo.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: I dismiss all the times that she yeah, no, it is the pile of poo.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I dismiss all the times she is on task and and remembers things and is thoughtful, and I just focus on that one time she forgot her keys, and then I I know myself, my whole mood and demeanor changes because then I become very critical, unhelpful.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: I I become a jerk.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: You she no I become very kind of mean, and so it's easy, it's it's shockingly easy to do, and I I know I just know for myself the the kind of person I become, I don't like.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like when when it's all said and done, I'm like, I kind of didn't like me right there, and I can see why she didn't like me either.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um so okay, so if you focus on like labels, I think that's another thing.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of saying you forgot the keys, you say you are a forgetful person, that's a label, and I basically have shaped her identity in my mind in that certain way.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: How would you so how about for you?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking more like what what do your like if you pay attention to your kids and they are actively hiding things from you, um I think you should that's not a typical trait of a of a trusting relationship.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so I would want to know why is my kid actively hiding things from me.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, one thing they could be addicted, or they're trying to not disappoint me.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: And if they're trying to not disappoint me, then that means I'm giving them some type of message that um that they're disappointing at some level to me.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good moment, and so they're making choices that obviously I don't agree with, and so I I guess I would want to see what kind of conversations am I having.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um and chances are they're shame-based type conversations, right?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good one.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I think for me it's hard, like with my my experience of growing up is that I was a pretty passive aggressive kid, so I would lie about things and um you were?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm passive aggressive now, but I'm more I acknowledge my passive aggressiveness and I know when I'm doing it.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas when I was a kid, it just I was just trying to get away with things with with my parents.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so I project that onto my kid now.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like he he says, I did this thing or I didn't do this thing, and I immediately go to that pile of poo.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay, yes.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I think he's probably not telling the truth when he's one of the most honest kids that I know, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so my wife has to stop me at times and yeah, and say, Why would he be lying?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I realize, oh, this is me kind of projecting myself as a child onto him and his behavior.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, but I think I've seen it in other parents where they ascribe a negative intent for the behavior.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I I'll give you an example.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't do this, but I could.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is my oldest daughter is like so selfish when it comes to anything that my younger daughter is like touching or interested in.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, even if she looks at a toy, Layla will run and say, uh, my doll or my baby.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: And she hadn't touched it for like two weeks before.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, she she couldn't give a crap about it.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then Lucy like just looks at it and it's like, that's mine, don't touch it.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: So in my mind, I could be like, you know, I could say that's not generous, and that is referring to her behavior, or I could say, you are not generous, you're selfish.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and at that point, that's shame-based parenting, I think.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: And if I repeat that enough, that gets internalized by my daughter and becomes part of her identity.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of saying that behavior, when you just did that, that was selfish, I think that's totally fine and appropriate to say.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: If I start then saying, you are selfish, when you did that, that's evidence that you are a selfish kid.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Every time this comes up, this is what you do, therefore, then you are a self-discipline.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: You're selfish or self-centered or whatever, you know.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: If I repeat that three, four times a day, every day, in her mind, it it's kind of like with media, you know, you repeat a lie enough, it becomes the truth.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: That will be part of her identity.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: And that is very destructive because that negative belief about herself will cause lots of harm for her and those around her.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's what what's crazy about it makes me think of the one of the chapters in the book when parenting backfires, that oh now it's a sc now it's like losing.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we did I didn't raise my kid that way.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: And the thing the thing about that is that if you you may not have raised your kid that way, but if you gave him the message that they are that person over and over, then in essence that's who you raise them to be.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: If you if it's I didn't raise my kid to be a liar, but you always called them a liar, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: Then essentially you did you did raise them to be a liar.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, when I see parents doing what I just said, in their minds they're thinking, I'm doing parenting.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm teaching my kid that when they did that, that was bad.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: But you're actually not teaching them, you're actually indoctrinating them into these really negative beliefs.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of saying something like, that behavior you just Did um was selfish.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: That that redirects their attention to the behavior and then they can change it.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: But when you do shame based, it redirects their attention to themselves.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: So they're not focusing on what I did and why it was wrong, they're focusing on what uh who I am and why I'm wrong.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: And how it makes me feel, I think, when my parent calls me that, and so I want to avoid that feeling, and so therefore I'll go underground with it, or or avoid my parent.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: And when we're talking about this, this is not our own personal opinion.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: David's been doing this for 15 plus years.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: I've been doing this for six.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: We have seen this day in, day out.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: This is not just our own neoliberal wishy-washy, give everybody a trophy award um feeling.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is like cold, hard clinical experience, and then there's a lot of evidence to support it too from social science.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think, okay, so so what's if a parent recognition recognizes this in themselves, like what are they supposed to do differently?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's five things you can do.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um let me pull it up here.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Get out your pen and paper.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: Or these five super important things on how to not uh shame parenting shame or shame parent your kid.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think what parents are trying to do when they do their their shame-based moves, I think they're trying to influence their kid in a positive way.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: They're just doing it in a way that backfires.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you I think there's three ways to influence your kid, but there's actually probably more.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: The first one I would say, you and I talk about this a lot, it's in the book, having a rationale for your rules.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: So just let having a conversation with your kid about the rules, letting them have an input.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't need to have a rationale for my rules.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm the parent.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: They should just listen to me.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: Do what I say.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: No, because I said so.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that may work when the kids are younger.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: We're being j we're joking.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: That's not a good idea to do that.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Do as I say and not as I do.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um that that will work when your kid is younger.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: You go to bed now, you brush your teeth now, you eat your veggies, you don't need to explain it, they just need to do it.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: When they get older, your kids are think critical thinking beings.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: They need to critically think through what they have to do.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: So if people understand why they have to follow a certain regime, certain rules, expectations, they're more likely to do it than if they don't understand it.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so uh so that's that's my first thing.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, that's really about a ra having a rational conversation, listening to their perspective on it.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you disagree, just understand where they're coming from and then explain why you have the rules set up in such a way.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm sure you've had many.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: I I think you I remember you mentioning a family where you really emphasize reasonableness, and that actually landed really well with the dad.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: I was just thinking of that word when you were talking about rationale, because even if if I think if you have a rationale for something, it needs to be reasonable as well.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because you may have the most you may have a rationale that is just the dumbest rationale and the most nonsensical rationale, but you you're listening to this podcast and you're thinking, well, it's my rationale, and right it's what I say as the parent.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna add that it needs to be reasonable.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if you say you need to go to bed at seven, because the studies show that every teenager needs, you know, 12 hours of sleep or whatever.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um but then the kid has homework they need to do, or they have something else that they need to do, it's it's not reasonable that rationale.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I think you have to be reasonable.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: And reasonable would be would other people, if you went and talked to other parents, um, would they consider what you're asking your kid to do to be reasonable?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, is a good way to judge if it's reasonable.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like if if your kid complains about doing the chores and you basically said you're a member of this family and you have to contribute, that that's a fair reason.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's not I so we're not saying you have to go like research every choice you make as a parent, right?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: It can be your own reasons, but the kid has to understand them in order to follow them.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, the next thing I would say is have honest conversations.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: So this speaks to what you were saying.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: If your kid's being secretive or lying or going behind your back, you have to be able, they have to be able to approach you and be honest.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And in order for that to be done, they have to feel safe to talk to you.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: So if they know when they share certain information and you freak out and you yell and scream and ground them and just go off the deep end, they are never going to be honest with you.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: I guarantee it.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And if they are, they're probably lying.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's not actual honesty.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want your kid to be honest with you, you have to make it inviting, you have to be welcoming to some degree to that information.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: So they have to feel somewhat safe in order to share that.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you definitely want to know what they're doing.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: One thing, yeah, one thing you may consider doing is going to a public location to have the conversation where there's some limited privacy, like a coffee shop where you're sitting at a table in a booth or something, because then both of you are gonna be on somewhat good behavior about you know the yelling and screaming piece of stuff, but then maybe you can also still have a good conversation about whatever it is you need to talk about.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: Or even having a third party there.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think if you have a third party there that you both trust and both know what's going on, um they can maybe be helpful as well.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um the third one I would say is people don't care what you know until they know that you care.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just just understanding your kids.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna put that on a bumper stick.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just understanding your kid where they're coming from, understanding their perspective, and then letting them know that you care.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I've seen this with couples research.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I read this theory uh a while back and it really kind of changed the way I do couples counseling.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: You can teach people all kinds of good skills, but they won't really do them unless they believe that their partner is is really cares about them or or they there's an emotional investment somewhere.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's the same with parenting and with your kids.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you're if your child genuinely believes you have their best interest at heart, they're gonna be more open and willing and uh uh ready to receive what you have to say, even if it's difficult or harsh or or blunt, they will listen to you because you you know they know that you care about them.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um okay, so I have four more tips.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: That was just the first tip.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, those are three, right?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: That was three for how to influence your kid, but I have four more things.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so give one more, and then if if people are interested, they could go to your website and get the rest.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'll just I'll just mention two really quickly.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Positive reinforcement.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, never give your kid a reward without it coming with some conditions.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: I see parents try to bribe their kids where they'll give them a reward and then hope the kid does good behavior.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: Don't ever do that.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's the worst.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Have them do the behavior, then reward them.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um the other thing, too, is negative reinforcement.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, take something away if they're not behaving in the way you want.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Again, have that established up front so it's not a surprise attack.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the buy-in, we kind of addressed that already.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Kids need to have an input and a voice in their teenagers um and the rules that they have to follow so that way they feel like they are bought into the plan.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's their plan, it's not something being imposed on them.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'll end with this is that um again, basically kind of like what we just said, I think the greatest resource parents have are the relationship they have with their kids.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: So if if your kid trusts you, they respect you, they admire you, they value you as a parent, they're gonna follow what you say.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: If they have reason, good reason to distrust you, to not take you seriously, to to feel negatively about you, it's kind of like it's a lost cause, you're treading water, it's gonna be antagonistic and a power struggle.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: So the best thing you can do is honestly just build a positive relationship with your kid.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Get interested in their interests, have good communication with them, be respectful towards your kids, so they'll be respectful to you.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, have reasonable expectations of them and rewards and consequences.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: When you do those things, it helps all the other stuff too.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh again, I've seen another uh another research study that shows that when people increase their relational investment, it decreases conflict.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: So um that that's a that's just a solid mental health advice right there.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I would think that if if you're finding anything any of this um conversation to be useful to you and you're thinking, yeah, I want to help with my kid, but I don't even know where to start.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's where I think getting with a competent um family counselor is gonna be usually helpful.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because they're they're that third party that can um kind of uh hold all the anger and the frustration and kind of can be helpful in producing a good conversation back and forth.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I say competent specifically because um there's a lot of therapists and counselors out there that aren't good.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so um maybe that's a podcast we can do where we're talking about how do you define how can you find a good one versus a bad one, you know, versus a bad one.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: But get with a therapist, and I mean you just do a Google search local wherever you live to you know, search for marriage and family therapists near me.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so you'll you'll have a lot of different organizations that will come up, or psychology today is another resource where you can put in your zip code and it'll populate a list of local um therapists and counselors.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um all right, so thanks for tuning in.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: Not tuning in, listening in.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: I keep saying tune in.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening in today.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: If you have any questions, feel free to email at headshrinkinc at gmail.com.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um you can find me on Facebook at DocDavid, and you can find Dan.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Counselor Guy.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Or wait, no, I'm Counselor Dan or at the mental health guy.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: So your Facebook page is counselor dan.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: Counselor Dan, yeah.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a great picture of him up on his page.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, thanks for listening in.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we'll talk to you next week.