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Fourth World Book Club #11 · 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast

• 0:01
  Tad Eggleston: Good morning, everybody. Welcome back to 22 Panels and the Fourth World Book Club. I am joined by Mark Harker.
• 0:09
  Tad Eggleston: Mark Pratt and Sean Harkle Road, I, like, I almost made you guys one person. Don't announce this secret.
• 0:17
  Tad Eggleston: Mark Harker Road, Sean Pratt, Prot Hawker Road.
• 0:21
  Tad Eggleston: John Mark, something like that.
• 0:25
  Mark Pracht: We are a unit.
• 0:26
  Tad Eggleston: that I know from plays in Chicago, who like comics, too, and make me happy.
• 0:33
  Tad Eggleston: Actually, I just saw a couple of…
• 0:40
  Tad Eggleston: I was sorting a bunch of comics for somebody, and came across some… some…
• 0:47
  Tad Eggleston: what was it, Pacific Comics?
• 0:51
  Tad Eggleston: Had some Kirby stuff, yeah.
• 0:53
  Sean Harklerode: We're a duck.
• 0:54
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:57
  Tad Eggleston: I came across a couple. And it was weird, because, like, they were new enough that I didn't expect them to be Kirby, but I looked at the cover, and I'm like, is that Jack Kirby? And it doesn't actually say on the outside, so I had to open it to go, oh, okay, yeah.
• 1:11
  Tad Eggleston: I think… I think a lot of those specific ones were, his concepts, and then they turned him over to a different writer and artist. Yeah, no. Like, I know…
• 1:20
  Tad Eggleston: It looked like there was some of that.
• 1:23
  Mark Pracht: Silver Star, I think. That was, you know, yet…
• 1:28
  Mark Pracht: Forgive me, Kirbyites. Yet another one of his patriotic characters, you know, or patriotic imagery characters, and
• 1:37
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, no, like, that was sort of… I remember that was… that was sort of, like, the last…
• 1:44
  Mark Pracht: I don't want to say gas, but that was the last little bit of work he did in comics before he bugged out.
• 1:51
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I think I saw… well, there was Captain Victory and the Galactic Rangers.
• 1:56
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, that's it. That's the one.
• 1:59
  Tad Eggleston: Well, no, Silver Star was there, too.
• 2:03
  Tad Eggleston: And, and I think, I think…
• 2:07
  Mark Pracht: to one half dozen the other. I mean…
• 2:11
  Tad Eggleston: I, I, I, I, I think I saw, both of those.
• 2:19
  Mark Pracht: I mean, like, this stuff's always…
• 2:21
  Tad Eggleston: Familiar. Yeah.
• 2:22
  Mark Pracht: the stuff's all interesting, but… and it's sort of like… that… from what I understand of that line, that was sort of what he originally intended for the Fourth World, was he was going to start up these ideas and then turn them over.
• 2:33
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 2:34
  Mark Pracht: else, and then it just never happened, and…
• 2:38
  Mark Pracht: Why? I don't know. Is that because editorial was just unenthusiastic? Is it because Jack wouldn't let go of it? Is it because…
• 2:46
  Tad Eggleston: Alright.
• 2:47
  Mark Pracht: You know, and… I don't know, I can certainly say from,
• 2:56
  Mark Pracht: So, like, at this point in our reread, in our read.
• 3:00
  Mark Pracht: my reread, I think, maybe first time for you, both of you guys, I can't remember.
• 3:04
  Tad Eggleston: I think so.
• 3:05
  Mark Pracht: Very tired this morning, so I apologize.
• 3:11
  Mark Pracht: that, you know, we've gotten through Jimmy Olsen, which…
• 3:16
  Mark Pracht: you know, always sort of felt like a contractual obligation that sort of just fit in. He made fit in.
• 3:23
  Mark Pracht: And… now… These last three issues that we read, which are, forever People 10.
• 3:33
  Mark Pracht: It's all tenth issues, right?
• 3:36
  Sean Harklerode: Yes.
• 3:36
  Tad Eggleston: Yes.
• 3:37
  Mark Pracht: New Gods 10, Mr. Miracle 10, Forever People 10.
• 3:43
  Mark Pracht: Personally, I feel like, Forever People's really running out of gas.
• 3:51
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, and it is. I mean, I think it only has one or two issues left.
• 3:55
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 3:57
  Tad Eggleston: Though, though, just because I, I, I started down the Pacific,
• 4:02
  Tad Eggleston: rabbit hole, I do need to quickly, toss out, you know what else started in Pacific Comics?
• 4:10
  Tad Eggleston: as a backup story to Star Slayer number 2?
• 4:14
  Mark Pracht: John Sable?
• 4:18
  Tad Eggleston: The Rocketeer?
• 4:20
  Mark Pracht: Oh, yes, yes, yeah, I knew that, I knew that.
• 4:23
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:26
  Mark Pracht: God, John, you know, I never… I had never thought about it. John Sable is, like, a perfect series for our pulp thing, too.
• 4:33
  Tad Eggleston: We should, we should, we should think about that.
• 4:35
  Mark Pracht: Effort? Yeah.
• 4:36
  Tad Eggleston: I love that book.
• 4:37
  Mark Pracht: Anyway… Haven't read it.
• 4:39
  Tad Eggleston: I like Mike Grel. I haven't… I haven't actually read Soundsable, but I like Mike Grel, so…
• 4:45
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, so now I'm off the Pacific bandwagon, and we're on to… yes, Forever People was…
• 4:53
  Mark Pracht: Like, I… I don't…
• 4:54
  Tad Eggleston: Gasping.
• 4:56
  Mark Pracht: I… I… that… that whole book, I was just like, okay, so this is a dead… dead man story? I…
• 5:01
  Tad Eggleston: Yep.
• 5:03
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 5:04
  Mark Pracht: And not…
• 5:04
  Tad Eggleston: It was a good Deadman book.
• 5:06
  Tad Eggleston: Or an okay dead man book.
• 5:13
  Mark Pracht: I know this is an audio… audio thing, but I… my… my…
• 5:19
  Mark Pracht: Holding my coffee cup… cup… coffee.
• 5:22
  Tad Eggleston: Alright, it was a… it was a passable Deadman book.
• 5:29
  Sean Harklerode: I… To me, it just felt like this was…
• 5:36
  Sean Harklerode: When you talk about, you know, expanded storytelling, you know, Drawing something out.
• 5:42
  Sean Harklerode: I mean… Nothing happened.
• 5:45
  Mark Pracht: None.
• 5:46
  Sean Harklerode: Right? This… I mean, It's Kirby, so… great art, don't get me wrong.
• 5:53
  Mark Pracht: 100%.
• 5:55
  Sean Harklerode: But… It just seemed like…
• 5:58
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, what do you mean? The scavengers stole the body, and Deadman had to follow it.
• 6:06
  Mark Pracht: Well, apparently the.
• 6:07
  Tad Eggleston: At the end.
• 6:07
  Mark Pracht: stole the body.
• 6:10
  Mark Pracht: Which, I'm like, what is this? I don't understand, what are you doing? Like…
• 6:17
  Mark Pracht: I'm question mark man. I don't know.
• 6:21
  Tad Eggleston: Well, I mean… Right.
• 6:24
  Tad Eggleston: I missed the question mark, because the helmet was my thing.
• 6:29
  Mark Pracht: But I see it now, yeah. Yeah.
• 6:31
  Sean Harklerode: I mean, the end of the last…
• 6:32
  Tad Eggleston: This is the… this is the secret Riddler origin story.
• 6:38
  Mark Pracht: Well, I mean, but on top of that, like, it's not only is it a question mark, but it's like…
• 6:43
  Mark Pracht: exactly the Riddler… symbol question mark. Like, it's not even…
• 6:50
  Mark Pracht: It's bizarre. It is a, like… and it's a weird thing to fixate on, yes, I'm sorry, dear listeners, but it's just, like, one of those things where I was… I flipped that page, and I'd totally forgotten about that, and I was like, what the hell? What is this?
• 7:03
  Tad Eggleston: Well, see, I had a different fixation, because, the… the collector guy…
• 7:10
  Tad Eggleston: Do we have a name for him? The Big Bald Guy?
• 7:13
  Mark Pracht: Oh, the,
• 7:15
  Mark Pracht: the, the, it's… they've given him a name. He's, he's part of that, he's part of that.
• 7:22
  Tad Eggleston: Go ahead.
• 7:24
  Mark Pracht: There's… they have, like, a structure. It's like…
• 7:27
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 7:28
  Mark Pracht: There's the… the scavengers, and then there's the,
• 7:34
  Mark Pracht: I forget, because he's got the underling, who's, like, the…
• 7:37
  Tad Eggleston: Right, the director. He's the director. Yes, yes. So the director, like… I mean…
• 7:45
  Tad Eggleston: First, you know, he's got a hook hand, but therefore he needs a…
• 7:51
  Tad Eggleston: When he's on the phone, it's, like, on a mechanical arm that holds it up to his head, so that he can give a thumbs up.
• 8:02
  Tad Eggleston: But then…
• 8:06
  Tad Eggleston: even more weird to me is that he… he lights his cigar, and also, like, there's an awful lot of red into that cigar. The way I understand it, you don't want to get that much of your cigar burning at once.
• 8:21
  Tad Eggleston: But he uses the hook hand?
• 8:27
  Mark Pracht: Hey, man.
• 8:28
  Tad Eggleston: With a match? It's not even, like, a built-in lighter in the hook hand?
• 8:34
  Sean Harklerode: Look.
• 8:36
  Sean Harklerode: Only Jack.
• 8:38
  Sean Harklerode: had the vision to cast Lawrence Tyranny as Blofeld.
• 8:44
  Mark Pracht: Ha ha ha ha! Nice.
• 8:47
  Sean Harklerode: It's…
• 8:47
  Mark Pracht: Nice. Good call. Good call. I don't know.
• 8:53
  Mark Pracht: Like, the other…
• 8:54
  Sean Harklerode: And look, Jack knows more about cigars than I think we do, so I'm not…
• 8:58
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 8:59
  Tad Eggleston: Well, I don't know that that's supposed to be a cigar, because it's in a holder, too.
• 9:05
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, but it's really thick.
• 9:08
  Mark Pracht: It's also brown. I don't… yeah, I don't…
• 9:11
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah. It's a char root.
• 9:14
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 9:14
  Mark Pracht: Possibly. But…
• 9:16
  Sean Harklerode: I don't know.
• 9:16
  Mark Pracht: Now, like, I think that what you're talking about here is, like, Jack, for…
• 9:22
  Mark Pracht: For whatever reason, decided to meld this into the… Deadman… storyline.
• 9:32
  Tad Eggleston: Right. It has to be a guy with a hook.
• 9:35
  Mark Pracht: And then, of course, it's like, well, it's not me, because there's lots of guys with hooks in… Right.
• 9:42
  Mark Pracht: I mean, it…
• 9:43
  Tad Eggleston: Certainly in the comic book world.
• 9:44
  Sean Harklerode: I didn't kill my wife!
• 9:47
  Tad Eggleston: And the world of piracy.
• 9:49
  Tad Eggleston: And the fugitive.
• 9:50
  Mark Pracht: It was the one-armed man. Right.
• 9:54
  Mark Pracht: But, no, I mean, like, I don't know, like… I… this book feels like even Jack is bored with the… the Forever People.
• 10:06
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 10:06
  Mark Pracht: You know? And I don't…
• 10:11
  Mark Pracht: I don't… I still don't… I still don't understand half their… who… what their powers are, half of them.
• 10:18
  Mark Pracht: And…
• 10:19
  Tad Eggleston: Do they understand what their powers are?
• 10:22
  Mark Pracht: I don't know.
• 10:23
  Mark Pracht: I'm not gonna…
• 10:26
  Tad Eggleston: Maybe… maybe… I think the issue here… Is that he… he wanted… To have his 60s counterculture.
• 10:40
  Mark Pracht: Absolutely.
• 10:40
  Tad Eggleston: But he… but he forgot… the hallucinogens.
• 10:49
  Mark Pracht: Should've brought in Ditko.
• 10:51
  Tad Eggleston: So they haven't… they haven't found themselves yet. They need to go on a trip.
• 10:58
  Mark Pracht: Well, I mean, like, look, I don't… I don't know, I…
• 11:01
  Mark Pracht: here's… here's my theory, and I know we have, like, two more issues of this series to get through.
• 11:07
  Tad Eggleston: only one.
• 11:08
  Mark Pracht: Well, and thank God, we're finally gonna get the Omni-Man back,
• 11:13
  Mark Pracht: Which, to me, was the best idea in the series, right? I love that idea of, like, you know, it's Captain Planet, but whatever.
• 11:20
  Tad Eggleston: But he's called Infinity Man on…
• 11:23
  Mark Pracht: Affinity, man.
• 11:24
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 11:25
  Mark Pracht: That's right. Infinity Man. I always forget it. It's terrible. I really should know this better, but…
• 11:32
  Tad Eggleston: Well, because he only appears in two issues.
• 11:35
  Mark Pracht: He's been gone for, what?
• 11:37
  Mark Pracht: 8 issues.
• 11:38
  Tad Eggleston: When you'd think he should have been in at least 8 out of these 11 issues.
• 11:43
  Mark Pracht: Well, to me, that's, like, the coolest idea in this book, is that there's, like, you know, and actually, when you talk about counterculture and, you know, collective
• 11:53
  Mark Pracht: collective power and collective, you know, intent. Like, that's a… that's a really cool…
• 12:00
  Tad Eggleston: Greater than the sum of our parts?
• 12:02
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, that's really a cool mistake.
• 12:04
  Tad Eggleston: But then also having to sometimes decide whether or not
• 12:10
  Tad Eggleston: Even though the sum of their parts is…
• 12:13
  Tad Eggleston: greater, maybe they need the more specific parts, and the… I mean, you could work in lots of strategy, where it's like, do we want to be Infinity Man, or do we need…
• 12:24
  Tad Eggleston: Do we need, what's-her-name that can change how people look at her?
• 12:28
  Mark Pracht: Beautiful dreamer.
• 12:30
  Tad Eggleston: beautiful dreamer to… to… to, like, do her thing, and do… I mean, we'd have to actually define some of the other powers, because, like…
• 12:39
  Mark Pracht: Right. Instead of Seraphin just pulling whatever he wants out of his… hat, you know, literally.
• 12:47
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, that's okay. Like, I mean, you probably want some sort of limit on it, but, like…
• 12:55
  Mark Pracht: Oh, no, I mean, no, I mean, like, it's, it's very, it's very Batman Utility Belt-ish. Right. But, it's a.
• 13:02
  Tad Eggleston: Well, but with the power of a mother box and a boom tomb, he could have a little literal Batman… I mean, they never explained how Batman fit all that shit in his utility belt. It could work.
• 13:15
  Mark Pracht: Who's who in the DC Universe had a structural diagram of how that belt worked, and I believe every inch of it. No, I'm kidding. Anyway…
• 13:25
  Tad Eggleston: I think somebody worked out how much it would have weighed, and it was like… Hundreds of pounds.
• 13:31
  Mark Pracht: He has trained himself to peak human conditioning. He can carry anything.
• 13:38
  Mark Pracht: Good.
• 13:41
  Tad Eggleston: The beginning of every backfight should be him dropping the belt to improve his speed and agility.
• 13:48
  Mark Pracht: But I don't know, like, I… like, I accept that in Batman, right? I don't know why, I… but I… No, like, with this, it's like, we're… we're talking about these… we have all these multiple characters, and for me.
• 14:02
  Mark Pracht: and I'm gonna say this, and then you guys can talk, because I talk too much on these things. But for me, like, when you have a group dynamic like this, it's really helpful
• 14:13
  Mark Pracht: for every character to have their specific thing that they do, right? And it feels very muddy. And I kind of wonder if this isn't the first book that Jack really hoped to hand over to, say, Mark Ivanier or someone, you know?
• 14:30
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 14:31
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, that's possible, but otherwise, you know, if that wasn't the plan, where it was gonna be a case where somebody else got to flesh out the characters more, if, like, I was…
• 14:42
  Tad Eggleston: Redoing this series now. The first five issues would have to have at least half of each issue dedicated to really getting to know a character. A character.
• 14:54
  Tad Eggleston: And part of updates… I mean, something that I'm shocked hasn't been done more in Legion of Superheroes is, like, the Mark Waid run.
• 15:08
  Tad Eggleston: Like, the opening page would have…
• 15:14
  Tad Eggleston: the Legion members that were going to be involved in this issue.
• 15:18
  Mark Pracht: Right. And their power set.
• 15:21
  Mark Pracht: Sure.
• 15:22
  Mark Pracht: Well, I mean, yeah, and it's not like… it's not like Justice League, right? Because, you know, Justice League, you're bringing in characters that you know from someplace else, right?
• 15:30
  Tad Eggleston: And there's generally a tighter cast.
• 15:34
  Mark Pracht: Yes. Well, and they, you know, at least in this period, they were always like, okay, we're gonna break into 4 teams.
• 15:41
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 15:41
  Mark Pracht: And there'd be the two teams… the four teams of two heroes that would go off and each do one thing.
• 15:47
  Tad Eggleston: Right. It was very formulaic, but it was…
• 15:50
  Mark Pracht: It was useful.
• 15:51
  Mark Pracht: And, to the point that I'm making about, like, everybody has their specific power set, like, you know, when…
• 15:59
  Mark Pracht: at least in my mind, whenever Batman is in a Justice League situation, his value is with his intellect and his… his problem-solving skills, and that's what they focus on. It's not what he can pull out of his belt, because there's Superman or whoever, you know.
• 16:15
  Tad Eggleston: When Superman is involved, it's gonna be brute strength and morals.
• 16:20
  Mark Pracht: Right. If Green Lantern is involved, it's more ethics than morals, you know? There's, like… Although…
• 16:28
  Mark Pracht: Although, you know, at this period, I think every… every one of these characters could have been… like, there wasn't the…
• 16:35
  Tad Eggleston: No, I mean that they're… that those are the ones that they use when there's… I mean, I don't know this period as well, but overall, from what I've…
• 16:43
  Tad Eggleston: seen throughout, it's like… If the question is strictly a moral one.
• 16:50
  Tad Eggleston: Superman or Wonder Woman are gonna be more…
• 16:54
  Tad Eggleston: centered on making that decision. If moral compromises might need to be made
• 17:02
  Tad Eggleston: because of ethics or laws, it'll wind up being Green Lantern.
• 17:08
  Tad Eggleston: If… It's… We need to get this job done.
• 17:16
  Tad Eggleston: It's Batman.
• 17:18
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 17:19
  Tad Eggleston: Kid hell. Well, I'm…
• 17:21
  Mark Pracht: You know, I don't know. I think it's really kind of funny, this conversation we're having.
• 17:26
  Mark Pracht: about Forever People, it really feels like we just read the final issue.
• 17:32
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 17:33
  Mark Pracht: Because, like, but it… it… like, I don't know, and Sean's been very quiet, I don't know how you felt about it, but…
• 17:40
  Sean Harklerode: Well, I haven't read the final issue.
• 17:42
  Mark Pracht: Well, no, I mean, I'm talking about this issue we were just talking about.
• 17:45
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah, I mean, the issue we're talk… I mean, I just felt like… it was… I didn't…
• 17:54
  Sean Harklerode: I wasn't really engaged. I… it started… I…
• 17:58
  Tad Eggleston: I can't figure the timeline of how long it took.
• 18:01
  Sean Harklerode: to build, the follower, and then it wasn't Peter Davison, you know, following Tom Baker around.
• 18:10
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 18:11
  Sean Harklerode: and then everyone's gone off to get new jobs.
• 18:18
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 18:19
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, what frustrates me about Forever People is, other than Miracle and BARDA,
• 18:26
  Tad Eggleston: They are the characters that, in Issue 1, I was most intrigued by.
• 18:32
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah.
• 18:33
  Tad Eggleston: I wanted so much from this book.
• 18:36
  Tad Eggleston: And it fell so flat that we've… I don't even think we've had other people give us anything.
• 18:42
  Tad Eggleston: I don't think that these characters have… I mean, we're 10 issues in, and I can't remember the characters' names.
• 18:48
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, I… yeah, I… yeah.
• 18:51
  Sean Harklerode: If, if you… Trey Parker and Matt Stone.
• 18:56
  Sean Harklerode: who South Park was epic.
• 19:01
  Sean Harklerode: You know, there… one of them was speaking
• 19:06
  Sean Harklerode: And I think it's always Trey Parker who's speaking.
• 19:10
  Sean Harklerode: But, if your story Has a lot of and then…
• 19:18
  Sean Harklerode: You know, it's not as exciting as if this happens, so this happens.
• 19:25
  Tad Eggleston: Right. So this happens.
• 19:27
  Sean Harklerode: And…
• 19:28
  Tad Eggleston: Or even… or even the… the…
• 19:31
  Sean Harklerode: Or butt.
• 19:32
  Tad Eggleston: right, but even the, the, the…
• 19:37
  Tad Eggleston: Improv, yes and works better than and then.
• 19:43
  Mark Pracht: Well, yeah, because, like, yes, Annie.
• 19:44
  Sean Harklerode: Particularly with…
• 19:46
  Sean Harklerode: with Forever People and New Gods this month, it was all, and then this happened. Right. This happened.
• 19:52
  Sean Harklerode: And then this happened. I didn't get a lot of…
• 19:56
  Sean Harklerode: character development, I didn't get a lot of…
• 20:02
  Sean Harklerode: you know, I just was not totally engaged. I mean, I do, and I, you know, my…
• 20:10
  Sean Harklerode: my second James Bond reference, or my first James Bond reference of today's podcast, you know.
• 20:16
  Sean Harklerode: Page 17, I mean… Jack had clearly recently seen,
• 20:24
  Sean Harklerode: you only live twice, because that is Blofeld's exit from the volcano.
• 20:31
  Sean Harklerode: in the little rail car.
• 20:35
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 20:36
  Sean Harklerode: Goodbye, Mr. Bond!
• 20:39
  Mark Pracht: So, it's true.
• 20:42
  Mark Pracht: I don't… you know, I… I think that…
• 20:45
  Mark Pracht: I just… you know, I guess we're sort of shifting over towards New Gods, because I think you're absolutely right.
• 20:53
  Mark Pracht: it is a lot of and then. The one thing I will say about New Gods this month was, at least…
• 21:01
  Mark Pracht: I was sort of, like, I thought it was exciting… it was an exciting read, like.
• 21:07
  Mark Pracht: it was action, action, action, action, action, right? So… And…
• 21:13
  Mark Pracht: you kind of wish that the… you kind of wish that the buildup to this bug invasion of Earth was a little more…
• 21:22
  Mark Pracht: nuanced.
• 21:24
  Sean Harklerode: Because, like, if it had been, like, 3 issues building up to this, and then now, okay, they're here, and now what are we gonna do about it?
• 21:31
  Mark Pracht: then I could have taken an issue that was just, like.
• 21:34
  Mark Pracht: A lot of punching, you know?
• 21:37
  Mark Pracht: And to Jack's credit, there is some build-up, you know, the last issue was a build-up to this issue. Right. And,
• 21:46
  Mark Pracht: I love… I think Forager is a real fun character. I still love Orion. I do think it's weird that his facial thing, you know, his ugly face, doesn't see… like…
• 21:59
  Mark Pracht: It seems to come and go now without…
• 22:04
  Mark Pracht: without much reason. Like, I noticed in a couple of drawings, I'm like, well, why does he look like that now? Isn't Motherbox making him look…
• 22:12
  Mark Pracht: handsome, you know? And sometimes it was because he was under the mask, or whatever, but it.
• 22:17
  Sean Harklerode: Right.
• 22:17
  Mark Pracht: still, I was sort of like,
• 22:22
  Mark Pracht: But yeah, no, I think… I think that…
• 22:25
  Mark Pracht: to Tad's point, I think that it is very telling that we have seen revivals of Mr. Miracle, we have seen revivals of new gods. No one has ever tried to revive.
• 22:37
  Tad Eggleston: It does actually look that… look like Mark DeMattis did a 6-issue series in 88.
• 22:43
  Mark Pracht: That got retconned in Death of the New Gods.
• 22:46
  Tad Eggleston: No.
• 22:48
  Tad Eggleston: And in Death of New Gods, the group are killed by Infinity Man?
• 22:58
  Mark Pracht: He's like, you kept me out of the book for a whole year! Right.
• 23:06
  Tad Eggleston: So, they do appear in the new 52 series, Infinity Man and the Forever People.
• 23:17
  Mark Pracht: Well, that's more than I knew about it. I mean, like…
• 23:19
  Tad Eggleston: I'm literally just reading this on Wikipedia now, and it's way more than I knew about it, too.
• 23:26
  Mark Pracht: Yeah. I mean, and look, I think that…
• 23:33
  Mark Pracht: I, I don't know, I just… I think…
• 23:39
  Mark Pracht: I don't know. Anyway…
• 23:41
  Mark Pracht: I'm glad we have one issue left. I'm glad that they're bringing back the Infinity Man for the last issue. I look forward to reading it. Just thumbing into the first couple of pages, I'm like, well, at least it… this seems to actually be re-engaging with this Fourth World Saga thing.
• 23:56
  Mark Pracht: Finally, you know?
• 23:59
  Tad Eggleston: No.
• 24:00
  Mark Pracht: to me, Yeah.
• 24:02
  Tad Eggleston: There is also the un-people in… ammo game…
• 24:08
  Tad Eggleston: Amalgam Comics one-shot Challengers of the Fantastic was the Forever People and the Inhumans put together.
• 24:19
  Tad Eggleston: But yeah, there's… there's really…
• 24:23
  Mark Pracht: I'm really tired.
• 24:23
  Tad Eggleston: Really not much.
• 24:24
  Mark Pracht: stuff. Anyway…
• 24:25
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, there is… there is a super young team, from… from… from, Grant Morrison.
• 24:32
  Tad Eggleston: And it looks like 52 number 6.
• 24:35
  Tad Eggleston: We're, like, the fifth world version.
• 24:38
  Mark Pracht: I could tell you right now, if they announced, like, a Grant Morrison-written Forever People revival, I'd be like.
• 24:45
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, I'd be all over it.
• 24:47
  Mark Pracht: It'd be all over it.
• 24:48
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 24:49
  Tad Eggleston: Well, for that matter, I need to go find the Dematus, because I could see…
• 24:56
  Tad Eggleston: I can see Mark DeMatis doing cool things.
• 25:00
  Mark Pracht: Commatus actually did, a New Gods run, too.
• 25:05
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 25:06
  Mark Pracht: And I think he did a, Mr. Miracle at one point or another.
• 25:10
  Tad Eggleston: I believe that.
• 25:11
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah, Jim DeMatis.
• 25:13
  Mark Pracht: Yeah. JM.
• 25:14
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 25:15
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah.
• 25:16
  Mark Pracht: Oh, not… yeah, marked about… I'm sorry.
• 25:19
  Mark Pracht: when I hear Dematis, I think… Jim.
• 25:24
  Tad Eggleston: Well, I think we're talking about the same person. JM is often.
• 25:29
  Mark Pracht: Jake.
• 25:29
  Tad Eggleston: to his friends.
• 25:31
  Sean Harklerode: Oh, really? I thought I did not know.
• 25:32
  Mark Pracht: Well, I hear it called Barca.
• 25:35
  Tad Eggleston: No, I know, but every time, almost every… I'm not either, but almost every time I hear him in an interview.
• 25:41
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 25:42
  Tad Eggleston: the person talking to him refers to him as Mark.
• 25:46
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 25:47
  Tad Eggleston: And the handful of people I know who… who are friends of his always refer to him as Mark. So I could be wrong, but…
• 25:56
  Mark Pracht: Seems like a nice guy. We were at a panel for him. But, anyway.
• 26:00
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, I'm a big fan, I mean, I… I am too.
• 26:04
  Sean Harklerode: I mean.
• 26:04
  Mark Pracht: like, if all he had ever written was the, the Justice League International, and…
• 26:10
  Mark Pracht: Stop making thumb… Justice League International and…
• 26:13
  Mark Pracht: Kraven's Last Hunt. I mean, like, that's…
• 26:18
  Mark Pracht: Right. That's a… that's a legacy right there.
• 26:20
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, and I know he was working with Geffen, but… You know.
• 26:26
  Mark Pracht: Anyway…
• 26:28
  Mark Pracht: let's move on. Let's move on. Like, I feel like we've talked a lot about a book that really wasn't.
• 26:34
  Tad Eggleston: No, I'm totally, totally ready to, to, to move on, sorry.
• 26:39
  Mark Pracht: No, it's fine.
• 26:39
  Tad Eggleston: I thought we'd kind of already segued into.
• 26:43
  Mark Pracht: Yeah. New gods?
• 26:44
  Tad Eggleston: New Gods. Which, I agree, it was action-packed, but, like…
• 26:51
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, I… I'm… I'm probably gonna be in the minority here, but I… Feel like the… the…
• 27:00
  Tad Eggleston: The unifying factor of this month's books is that… Ultimately, not a lot happened.
• 27:09
  Tad Eggleston: It was beautiful, and there was action, but… Not a lot of why.
• 27:17
  Sean Harklerode: Yes.
• 27:18
  Mark Pracht: I gotta… I gotta imagine, like, cause, like, we only have…
• 27:23
  Mark Pracht: like, I think both Forever People and New Gods end with 11, right?
• 27:28
  Tad Eggleston: I know Forever People does, I forget if New Gods makes it to 11 or 12, let me check.
• 27:34
  Mark Pracht: look at it Because then there's… cause, there's Hunger Dogs that's in here.
• 27:40
  Mark Pracht: But that's… we should save that to the end, because that's.
• 27:43
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.
• 27:43
  Mark Pracht: the return from… There may be… Flippin' forward here.
• 28:01
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, no, New Gods? Well, okay, let me.
• 28:04
  Mark Pracht: Chris, who came back…
• 28:06
  Tad Eggleston: New Gods goes to 11, and then 5 years later, Conway picks up with 12.
• 28:18
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, but that's not in this… that's not… that's not in our purview. Right.
• 28:22
  Mark Pracht: Because after that.
• 28:25
  Sean Harklerode: Right. Then we go to the 10 years later.
• 28:28
  Tad Eggleston: New Gods is…
• 28:29
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 28:30
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 28:30
  Mark Pracht: to the… the, hunger Dogs. No, wait. There's a 10… yeah, because they… wait, there's the 10 years later…
• 28:39
  Mark Pracht: Which is, an issue… okay, so, if… let me see if I can remember all of this. So, they canceled the book at 11.
• 28:48
  Mark Pracht: then, Continues with, you know, Mr. Miracle for a while.
• 28:58
  Mark Pracht: Then that gets canceled. Then he leaves DC, goes back to Marvel, and then… after his Marvel contract is up.
• 29:07
  Mark Pracht: Jeanette Kahn is like, these books are great.
• 29:12
  Mark Pracht: let's bring him back to do another… like, we're gonna reprint all of them, and then we're gonna have Jack do another issue to try to…
• 29:22
  Mark Pracht: wrap it up. And that's the 10… that's the…
• 29:26
  Mark Pracht: that's the… the book that I'm looking at here, and then after that, there was the Hunger Dogs graphic novel that was supposed to really wrap it up. Even… even Gods Must Die is this story that he wrote for the reprint series.
• 29:44
  Sean Harklerode: Right.
• 29:45
  Mark Pracht: So…
• 29:48
  Mark Pracht: at least for our reading order, I feel like after next month, we should just do Mr. Miracle, then come back and look at that other stuff.
• 29:57
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 29:58
  Tad Eggleston: I think that is our official reading order, let me check.
• 30:02
  Mark Pracht: I make… I make no promises that I know what's going on.
• 30:07
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 30:07
  Mark Pracht: But…
• 30:08
  Tad Eggleston: You just came up with the reading order to begin with, you didn't pay attention after that.
• 30:14
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, January is all 11, February is… Mr. Miracle, 12 to 15.
• 30:24
  Tad Eggleston: March is Mr. Miracle 16-18, and the second story of the New Gods reprint series, number 6.
• 30:35
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 30:36
  Tad Eggleston: And then… Hunger Dogs is April, and we will have… We will have complete…
• 30:42
  Mark Pracht: completed the Kirby. Anyway, but, I mean, like, I… I… it…
• 30:48
  Mark Pracht: The new gods this month didn't…
• 30:51
  Mark Pracht: bother me the way Forever People did, and I shouldn't even say that.
• 30:55
  Tad Eggleston: Because at least I knew the characters.
• 30:57
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 30:58
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, like, yeah.
• 31:00
  Tad Eggleston: Like, like, I mean, Forever People, I don't think, would have bothered me if it had been character building. There was some character building without any plot moving forward in New Gods. Because you have, like, no character development so far in Forever People, there was…
• 31:20
  Tad Eggleston: I did, though, read that the reason Deadman was in was an editorial decision, and they actually
• 31:29
  Tad Eggleston: want a dead man to be put into Forever People instead.
• 31:35
  Mark Pracht: I just… you froze, and…
• 31:39
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah, you froze there, Tad.
• 31:41
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 31:42
  Sean Harklerode: An editorial decision, and then we…
• 31:44
  Tad Eggleston: He was supposed to put him in New Gods.
• 31:47
  Tad Eggleston: But he didn't want to put him in New God, so he slipped him into Forever People instead. But Infantino wanted the Kirby touch.
• 31:54
  Tad Eggleston: on… Dead man to try to juice him.
• 32:00
  Mark Pracht: I mean… I don't…
• 32:03
  Mark Pracht: Here's, like, and this is going back, but, like, the Kirby Touch was giving Dead Man a new follower body?
• 32:12
  Mark Pracht: Like, isn't that sort of, like…
• 32:15
  Mark Pracht: Like, isn't the whole Deadman thing that he could, you know, possess?
• 32:21
  Mark Pracht: various.
• 32:21
  Tad Eggleston: I mean… What's it?
• 32:23
  Mark Pracht: Isn't that his power, Sid?
• 32:25
  Tad Eggleston: As it turned out, Kirby coming to DC really didn't pay huge dividends for another decade or so.
• 32:33
  Mark Pracht: Oh, no. No, no, no, yeah, no, and I think that… I think, I mean, like, this… and I think we should do a wrap-up, you know, like, at the end of all of this, of, like, what the actual legacy of all this is, because, like, I think that there is this weird, like.
• 32:48
  Mark Pracht: I think… I think a lot of times your… fervent…
• 32:55
  Mark Pracht: This is something for later, so I'll just stop talking, because I have, like, all sorts of, like, thoughts about it. At least finish the sentence.
• 33:05
  Mark Pracht: But I just think that a lot of people think that Kirby was hamstrung, or that… that they, you know, like, every time Kirby goes someplace and it doesn't work out the way they think it should, that it's somebody is screwing Jack. And it's like, maybe, maybe not, but, I mean, it's also, like… like, I think…
• 33:27
  Mark Pracht: and this is probably a conversation for next month, too, but I mean, I don't… I don't think that Forever People was ever a really good idea for a book. I think that almost what they should have done… what Jack should have done, and I think would have been better, is to have a new God's Book that would be about High Father and shit happening on…
• 33:45
  Mark Pracht: New Genesis, and you could do all those stories about, like, the history and the… and then have Orion
• 33:53
  Mark Pracht: on Earth, waging this war to protect Earth, you know?
• 33:59
  Mark Pracht: and then Mr. Miracle, and then that would have been your triptych books to… to really…
• 34:05
  Mark Pracht: I think that… because I think that every time, every time a new God's Book has gone back and told, like, a High Father story, we've all loved it.
• 34:14
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah.
• 34:16
  Mark Pracht: And.
• 34:17
  Tad Eggleston: And I think that is absolutely the, the… Biggest legacy of… Kirby at…
• 34:31
  Mark Pracht: DC?
• 34:33
  Mark Pracht: And Tadic…
• 34:34
  Tad Eggleston: is that he… he laid found… Am I frozen again? He laid foundations for things that…
• 34:45
  Tad Eggleston: still resonate, you know?
• 34:47
  Mark Pracht: 100.
• 34:48
  Sean Harklerode: Oh, absolutely.
• 34:50
  Mark Pracht: like… Darkseid is one of the greatest villains ever.
• 34:55
  Mark Pracht: 100%. I mean, like, and… and…
• 35:00
  Mark Pracht: you know, we can have that whole conversation, is Thanos a ripoff of Darkseid? Is, you know, whatever, but,
• 35:10
  Mark Pracht: But, like, this… this… sweeping mythology.
• 35:16
  Mark Pracht: As a large-scale idea, has been fantastic.
• 35:22
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 35:23
  Mark Pracht: I just think that…
• 35:25
  Mark Pracht: And maybe it was because the sales weren't what DC wanted, you know? They wanted Marvel sales, or whatever that was, and it just…
• 35:33
  Mark Pracht: didn't get there. But…
• 35:37
  Mark Pracht: I don't know. I think that, to go back to this actual book, I mean, like, I think…
• 35:45
  Mark Pracht: I actually kind of like Mantis as a villain.
• 35:48
  Mark Pracht: I like the idea that he's a bug.
• 35:51
  Mark Pracht: Or… is pretending to be a bug, but, I mean, like, the name…
• 35:56
  Mark Pracht: it almost seems like… it almost seems like a retcon, sort of like, oh, I came over with this character named Mantis, and now I have these bugs. Shouldn't Mantis be one of them? And I'm like, oh, that's a… that's a perfectly valid idea.
• 36:10
  Mark Pracht: I… I think…
• 36:14
  Mark Pracht: I would have been… I think I would have been happier with… I like… I've always liked Forager as a character.
• 36:20
  Mark Pracht: the, Cosmic Odyssey book that, They did in the 80s.
• 36:28
  Mark Pracht: What?
• 36:30
  Sean Harklerode: Who did that?
• 36:32
  Mark Pracht: It was.
• 36:33
  Sean Harklerode: Remember reading that.
• 36:35
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, it was, I want to say it was Dematis… Dematis.
• 36:41
  Mark Pracht: Maybe I'm wrong. But it was, but it was, .
• 36:46
  Sean Harklerode: Jim Starlin.
• 36:47
  Mark Pracht: Oh, yeah, it's Jim Starlin and,
• 36:51
  Mark Pracht: Oh, my God. Like Mignola? Yeah, Mignola. And, I've… I love that book, I was… I have a very big soft… and… and Forager was one of the characters that they brought in, and I really… I was really taken with him. But…
• 37:10
  Mark Pracht: I think, as I was reading this book, I was like, isn't this one too many… Child raised by…
• 37:19
  Mark Pracht: you know.
• 37:21
  Mark Pracht: Like, how many kids were they handing around to different, you know, Like, I almost.
• 37:26
  Tad Eggleston: A lot.
• 37:26
  Mark Pracht: Forager… I always wish Forager was just one of the bugs, you know?
• 37:31
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 37:32
  Mark Pracht: And then, actually, that would make… that would make Orion's, let's just call it what it is, racism,
• 37:41
  Mark Pracht: That much more immediate, you know?
• 37:43
  Mark Pracht: His… his disdain for the bugs, you know?
• 37:48
  Mark Pracht: That was my thoughts.
• 37:51
  Sean Harklerode: And, he does… he does refer to them as Eternals.
• 38:01
  Sean Harklerode: Porting, the future here.
• 38:06
  Mark Pracht: What, a movie that…
• 38:08
  Sean Harklerode: Forager refers to… Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:10
  Sean Harklerode: Fair.
• 38:11
  Mark Pracht: Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, there… there's a… there's a bouillabez of… of… Thematic and, and, you know…
• 38:20
  Mark Pracht: terminology in these books, but… Anyway, that was, like… but…
• 38:25
  Mark Pracht: as a whole, I enjoyed this… I enjoyed this New Gods issue, just because it sort of just went slam bang.
• 38:34
  Mark Pracht: It's gonna be a big battle issue.
• 38:37
  Mark Pracht: And we had a big battle, and that was the end of it, you know?
• 38:42
  Mark Pracht: And they drove by Mantis. I will say, this splash page on, 16 is pretty fucking incredible.
• 38:56
  Sean Harklerode: Oh, yeah.
• 38:57
  Sean Harklerode: I mean, that's… It's not.
• 39:04
  Sean Harklerode: I don't think… the, the cover…
• 39:10
  Sean Harklerode: To… to this, but it is very…
• 39:13
  Sean Harklerode: Reminiscent of… of the, dust cover on my omnibus.
• 39:19
  Sean Harklerode: But I think it's… Dark side that he's punching.
• 39:26
  Mark Pracht: I don't know, I… I like that… one of the things I really love about that splash page is that he… he gets a splash page, but then he also kind of gets two panels out of it.
• 39:35
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah. You know, cause he's got the rubble.
• 39:43
  Mark Pracht: But yeah.
• 39:45
  Mark Pracht: And… I don't know.
• 39:48
  Mark Pracht: I think that there are a couple of… there are a couple of, like, wacky, Kirby art moments.
• 39:55
  Mark Pracht: the, the, the drawing of Lincoln on,
• 40:05
  Mark Pracht: The private detective on the bottom of page 14 on the right.
• 40:09
  Mark Pracht: like… His face seems a little wonky, you know?
• 40:13
  Mark Pracht: But I mean, this is all… you know, that's Kirby.
• 40:18
  Mark Pracht: it's not about anatomy, it's about energy, so… Yeah.
• 40:22
  Mark Pracht: I find it charming, actually, so…
• 40:27
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah, no, to me, I mean, it's what we're looking for when you're reading a Kirby book, those.
• 40:32
  Mark Pracht: That's…
• 40:33
  Sean Harklerode: Sometimes familiar faces, they're blocky.
• 40:36
  Sean Harklerode: You know, the hands…
• 40:39
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, the… yeah. I've broken my wrist!
• 40:44
  Sean Harklerode: I found it interesting, and I really liked it, because it gets to what I think, Jack was really going for, with this series, on page 17, where he refers to Light Ray, the planner.
• 40:59
  Mark Pracht: Hmm.
• 40:59
  Sean Harklerode: Fine. So… you know, that's a clear reference to Odysseus, right?
• 41:06
  Mark Pracht: Right.
• 41:07
  Sean Harklerode: Right, Odysseus was the planner.
• 41:10
  Sean Harklerode: And, I mean, he's creating this new mythology, and maybe it doesn't… to Tad's point.
• 41:20
  Sean Harklerode: Maybe it doesn't take off in that moment.
• 41:24
  Sean Harklerode: But he lays a foundation for that mythology to take root later.
• 41:33
  Mark Pracht: 100%.
• 41:35
  Sean Harklerode: But I think that's a clue to… to what he…
• 41:38
  Sean Harklerode: really had planned for these characters, had he been able to continue.
• 41:43
  Mark Pracht: Yes. I mean, like, and I think, you know, I think…
• 41:50
  Mark Pracht: I… yeah, I don't know. I think I… I…
• 41:56
  Mark Pracht: One of the things that I continually think about is, you know, he talked about how he wanted to hand him off to other teams to work on, like, who did he have in mind, you know?
• 42:08
  Mark Pracht: I… I would… I would hazard to guess that he would probably have handed one book off to Mark Ivanier and, Steve Skeetz? Skeetz? Yeah.
• 42:19
  Mark Pracht: But, you know, his two assistants, can't remember.
• 42:27
  Sean Harklerode: Right?
• 42:27
  Mark Pracht: Sherman, yes, yes, that's it, sorry.
• 42:30
  Mark Pracht: Apologies to… Mark Evanier, if you're listening.
• 42:34
  Mark Pracht: But…
• 42:37
  Mark Pracht: No, I think I… I thought… I think, to your guys' point, it is… it is true. Nothing really happens.
• 42:46
  Mark Pracht: Really.
• 42:47
  Mark Pracht: Overarching, narrative-wise.
• 42:52
  Mark Pracht: But I, I thought it was a, it was a fun little book.
• 42:55
  Mark Pracht: That's my opinion.
• 42:59
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 43:00
  Tad Eggleston: And… Mr. Miracle, I had… similar opinions.
• 43:09
  Tad Eggleston: It sets up… the interesting could…
• 43:16
  Tad Eggleston: You know, because it's, it's, it's pairing them with the PR guy.
• 43:21
  Mark Pracht: Hmm.
• 43:26
  Mark Pracht: Well, I think that that also… I mean, this is something we should… talk about…
• 43:33
  Sean Harklerode: Are we moving on to Mr. Miracle?
• 43:36
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 43:39
  Mark Pracht: I think that…
• 43:43
  Mark Pracht: part of this issue feels like it's setting… like, I have to assume that Jack knew
• 43:51
  Mark Pracht: that forever people and new gods were ending.
• 43:54
  Mark Pracht: Right?
• 43:55
  Mark Pracht: And that… He got sort of a…
• 44:01
  Mark Pracht: the marching orders, as I understand, were just…
• 44:06
  Mark Pracht: make… bring Mr… make Mr. Miracle a superhero book.
• 44:11
  Mark Pracht: And I feel like he's setting those. He's like, okay, I need to change this up a little bit.
• 44:17
  Mark Pracht: So, like, I think that's bringing in,
• 44:21
  Mark Pracht: the original Mr. Miracle son as his publicist, it gives them a chance to, like, they can move around the country, they can do the, you know, like, it's the stuff that we're gonna see in the next several issues, you know?
• 44:35
  Mark Pracht: Right. Before he comes back and…
• 44:38
  Mark Pracht: For the first time, tries to wrap all this up.
• 44:42
  Mark Pracht: But, you know, again, I… I didn't think…
• 45:03
  Mark Pracht: I don't know. I mean, I think… the story in itself was fairly forgettable. I mean, I don't…
• 45:10
  Mark Pracht: I'm, like, thumbing through it right here, and I'm like, okay.
• 45:16
  Sean Harklerode: They, you know, they, they come back.
• 45:20
  Sean Harklerode: to Earth, and they land in the X latitude.
• 45:25
  Sean Harklerode: Which… again, appears to me, getting back to my, you know, promised second Bond reference.
• 45:33
  Sean Harklerode: you know, I think we have another Blofeld, another Spectre, you know, here,
• 45:43
  Sean Harklerode: Because, what, he accuses them of being the, you all nation agents.
• 45:49
  Sean Harklerode: Does that mean the United Nations? You know, what is that?
• 45:55
  Sean Harklerode: But then, I mean, I do like the head, who's literally just head. Right.
• 46:02
  Sean Harklerode: And… you know, this takes place before the movie Moonraker, but basically, he's Hugo Drax here.
• 46:12
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 46:13
  Sean Harklerode: Going to terrorize the planet With orbiting, you know, Satellites filled with plague.
• 46:23
  Sean Harklerode: Which, you know, I don't know if the screenwriters, you know, they certainly didn't, you know, base the movie on the book.
• 46:33
  Sean Harklerode: So, I don't know if they based it.
• 46:35
  Mark Pracht: Well… Base that portion on this.
• 46:37
  Mark Pracht: I think we all know that they base Moonraker on the spy that loved me.
• 46:44
  Mark Pracht: Well, you know.
• 46:45
  Sean Harklerode: underwater, it'll be in space!
• 46:52
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, I don't know, I feel like the movie Goldfinger is more based on…
• 46:58
  Sean Harklerode: the book, Moonraker.
• 47:00
  Mark Pracht: But,
• 47:02
  Sean Harklerode: It's all that.
• 47:05
  Mark Pracht: I do, I do love seeing more of the female Furies.
• 47:14
  Mark Pracht: I… I really love that. I love… I love seeing Barda in charge.
• 47:28
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah.
• 47:30
  Mark Pracht: I, you know…
• 47:37
  Mark Pracht: I just… I… I… we had this… we talked about this last month, but man, I do kind of wish…
• 47:43
  Mark Pracht: that… we got to see more of Scott's process when he makes these escapes. It would make it…
• 47:51
  Mark Pracht: Like, that's such an element of drama that's just not… Even there, you know?
• 47:59
  Sean Harklerode: Alright, I have you in my clutches, Mr. Free!
• 48:03
  Sean Harklerode: But… I'm gonna create an elaborate… Trap for you.
• 48:12
  Sean Harklerode: Just to see.
• 48:14
  Sean Harklerode: Right. What you can do, right?
• 48:17
  Sean Harklerode: You know, he sees… the head, sees in his mind that he's an escape artist.
• 48:23
  Sean Harklerode: Which, if I see in your mind that you're an escape artist.
• 48:29
  Sean Harklerode: Why would I want to then.
• 48:32
  Mark Pracht: Give you something to escape from?
• 48:34
  Sean Harklerode: To escape!
• 48:37
  Sean Harklerode: trick.
• 48:39
  Sean Harklerode: I…
• 48:41
  Mark Pracht: I don't know, I just… I think that, yeah, I… I, I, I don't know.
• 48:47
  Sean Harklerode: It's part of the formula.
• 48:49
  Mark Pracht: Of course!
• 48:50
  Sean Harklerode: But, it did… it did strike me as, like, in his mind, he's an escape artist. I'm just curious.
• 49:02
  Mark Pracht: Well, I mean, it is part of the formula, but I mean, that's sort of the point I'm saying, is like, I wish that formula was a little more…
• 49:10
  Mark Pracht: like, the formula was a little more like, okay, here's Scott inside of this… sarcophagus.
• 49:17
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah.
• 49:18
  Mark Pracht: You know, he can even use his little pieces of equipment and stuff, but it's like, okay, I'm gonna use this laser that I've secreted in my fingertip to cut through these bonds, and then, you know…
• 49:30
  Mark Pracht: It's sort of like… there was that one where… that one issue where he was in the… the… the deadly car wash, or whatever it was.
• 49:39
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, yeah. And it was just like…
• 49:41
  Sean Harklerode: Dr. Blunderbar?
• 49:43
  Mark Pracht: Dr. Wunderbar, and
• 49:46
  Mark Pracht: And, you know, and it turned out he just had laser shoes that cut through the floor. And I'm like, well, that's…
• 49:53
  Mark Pracht: Okay, that seems kind of easy, so…
• 49:57
  Mark Pracht: I don't know. I mean, and maybe…
• 50:00
  Mark Pracht: I don't know, I don't know anything about an escape art. You know, like.
• 50:05
  Mark Pracht: The most awesome thing, you know, we talk… we talk about that whole idea that he was… he was looking to ship these over to other artists, and…
• 50:14
  Mark Pracht: Could you imagine, like, Steranko taking over this book?
• 50:19
  Mark Pracht: like… That would have been…
• 50:21
  Tad Eggleston: It'd be interesting.
• 50:22
  Mark Pracht: That… that would have been amazing, cause, like.
• 50:25
  Mark Pracht: Y-you know, I think he could probably tell
• 50:29
  Mark Pracht: You know, he could make those escapes, like, visceral and…
• 50:34
  Mark Pracht: have some knowledge of how you would actually do it. Like, obviously, a magician doesn't reveal their tricks, but…
• 50:42
  Mark Pracht: You know, it would have been, like.
• 50:45
  Mark Pracht: I think… and also, it's Jim Steranko, he would want to show the physical skill and power that is necessary to do these things, you know?
• 50:55
  Mark Pracht: I mean, I think that…
• 51:01
  Mark Pracht: these characters… I love these characters so much. I love Scott, I love Barda, I love… I love the… I love the concept. It is…
• 51:09
  Mark Pracht: it's just, I think that… Sometimes this whole gimmick of the escape artist thing seems kind of thrown out.
• 51:19
  Mark Pracht: Or just there.
• 51:21
  Mark Pracht: Rather than something that feels intrinsic to the storytelling.
• 51:25
  Mark Pracht: And maybe we're just saying the same things over and over again, I don't know, but…
• 51:29
  Tad Eggleston: No, I think that that's, Valid…
• 51:38
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, yes, we've said it before, but we've also not said it.
• 51:44
  Tad Eggleston: If that makes sense. You know, it goes back and forth.
• 51:48
  Mark Pracht: We can sit here, we can talk or not talk.
• 51:54
  Tad Eggleston: No, but what I mean is, like, particularly with Mr. Miracle, there have been issues where…
• 52:04
  Tad Eggleston: He's done wonderful things that were very intrinsic to the storytelling, and issues where he didn't succeed as much at that.
• 52:14
  Tad Eggleston: So…
• 52:19
  Mark Pracht: I will say, I know, I know what.
• 52:21
  Tad Eggleston: Value in calling out the difference.
• 52:23
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah. Hot.
• 52:25
  Sean Harklerode: Go ahead, Mark, and then I…
• 52:27
  Mark Pracht: Now, I will say, to Sean's point about the bond thing,
• 52:37
  Mark Pracht: I think this, Mike McCracken.
• 52:42
  Mark Pracht: It's gotta be a ball pastiche.
• 52:47
  Mark Pracht: Nice. But I mean, like, didn't you, like, when that… when he came in, I was like, oh, here's James Bond.
• 52:54
  Sean Harklerode: Right.
• 52:54
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, I mean, like, yeah.
• 52:56
  Mark Pracht: Like, right down to the, like.
• 53:00
  Mark Pracht: Flirting with pretty females is only natural for the male, you know?
• 53:08
  Mark Pracht: But yeah, I mean, and I know we're trying to keep it to a tight hour today, but I, like, I did…
• 53:14
  Mark Pracht: I liked Mike McCracken. I thought that that was an interesting Mike McCracken.
• 53:19
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah.
• 53:20
  Sean Harklerode: I don't know that he's ever… I don't recall him showing up again, but I enjoyed that.
• 53:26
  Mark Pracht: Call me. I will do a Mike McCracken series for you that will kick butt.
• 53:31
  Sean Harklerode: I, you know, I think…
• 53:33
  Sean Harklerode: to me, you know, this issue, again, to… I agree with Tad. However, just the characterizations made this
• 53:45
  Sean Harklerode: a much easier, faster read, you know, enjoyable read, because I… I really care about these characters, and I… 100%. I see Oberon at the end, and, you know.
• 53:57
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah.
• 54:00
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, 100%, 100%. Like, like, and I… and I said that that's… that's part of, like, bringing in the… bringing… like, and that's the thing, is, like, you brought in all those female Furies.
• 54:13
  Mark Pracht: And it's exactly what I don't think happened in…
• 54:17
  Mark Pracht: Forever people, like, they're… like, I don't know a lot about those characters, but their power sets are always clear.
• 54:25
  Mark Pracht: Their visuals are very distinctive, and they have a personality that's tied to both of those things.
• 54:34
  Mark Pracht: Like, it's not… it's not particularly deep.
• 54:37
  Mark Pracht: like, Stompa, I couldn't tell you what her…
• 54:41
  Mark Pracht: Deep fears are, or anything like that, but…
• 54:44
  Mark Pracht: I can tell you who Stampa is, you know, as a… as a character in this drama. And I…
• 54:53
  Mark Pracht: And I think that seeing Barda interact with those characters was fun, and seeing, you know.
• 55:01
  Mark Pracht: I always kind of like it when Scott seems like he's just sort of, like.
• 55:08
  Mark Pracht: Kind of on the outside of the… you know.
• 55:12
  Mark Pracht: Because in a lot of ways, this feels like a Barda story more than anything, you know?
• 55:18
  Mark Pracht: To me.
• 55:21
  Mark Pracht: That and Mike McCracken.
• 55:23
  Sean Harklerode: Yeah.
• 55:24
  Mark Pracht: All nations agent.
• 55:29
  Mark Pracht: Anyway… So… I guess that's about an hour. We should probably wrap up.
• 55:35
  Tad Eggleston: It does.
• 55:36
  Mark Pracht: to a birthday party.
• 55:38
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah, for a nice one-year-old, so, like…
• 55:41
  Sean Harklerode: Oh!
• 55:42
  Mark Pracht: Those are always fun.
• 55:45
  Tad Eggleston: But, birthday parties are fun? Yeah, no, I'm…
• 55:53
  Tad Eggleston: Is it wrong to say I'm looking forward to wrapping up and looking at as a whole?
• 56:01
  Tad Eggleston: It is rough to say that. You're shaking your head yes. I think…
• 56:06
  Mark Pracht: No, no, it's not wrong to say it. I, like, I think that, you know.
• 56:11
  Mark Pracht: I, you know, I reiterate the story, like, this is part of the deal, is, like, I think that…
• 56:19
  Mark Pracht: These books are so important to… Kirby's career development, right?
• 56:28
  Mark Pracht: That they're important to look at.
• 56:32
  Mark Pracht: But I also think that, you know, I think that in a lot of ways, these books lay bare
• 56:38
  Mark Pracht: kirby's weaknesses, and I think that…
• 56:44
  Mark Pracht: they are… they do become kind of a slog, and I know that that's not, like… this was all my idea to do this, and…
• 56:53
  Mark Pracht: I hate to say it, but I mean, like, there does get to be this point where you're just like, come on, Jack.
• 56:59
  Tad Eggleston: And I cannot emphasize enough that I think it's been worth doing.
• 57:04
  Tad Eggleston: And I don't want to truncate anything. I think it's worth doing, and worth doing the way that we've done this, but I think the way that we've done this also emphasizes what you were saying earlier about people who want to insist that, oh, it was just editorial interference, blah blah blah…
• 57:23
  Tad Eggleston: I don't know if I can buy that.
• 57:25
  Mark Pracht: No, I mean, I think that… I think that…
• 57:28
  Mark Pracht: I mean, I've said this prior… in prior episodes, you know, like, what were the other books on the shelves? Like, you had, like, the Neil Adams, Denny O'Neill books, and the… Right. …and the… like, this… this seems…
• 57:44
  Mark Pracht: I can only imagine that in 1972, or 73, or wherever we're at right now, this kind of felt like your grandfather's comics, you know? And it's like…
• 57:56
  Mark Pracht: I can see, you know, certainly.
• 57:59
  Mark Pracht: You know, there was a lot of talk about if there had been a direct market, these would have been massive hits, and it's like, okay, but there wasn't.
• 58:08
  Tad Eggleston: I honestly think that if there was a direct market.
• 58:12
  Tad Eggleston: Some of these would have died sooner.
• 58:16
  Mark Pracht: Quite possibly.
• 58:17
  Tad Eggleston: And, or, somebody would have been able to walk in with numbers and say, Jack.
• 58:23
  Tad Eggleston: if you want this to keep working, we need to get the numbers up, and this is what I think you should do. I told you that we'd have editorial, but this is my advice.
• 58:34
  Tad Eggleston: You know, and it's not like he didn't have people around him that, like… I mean, Mark Avenir comes up a lot. Marc Avenir is a solid writer.
• 58:42
  Tad Eggleston: If he'd just handed over even just dialogue duties to Mark Evanier, they could have changed these books.
• 58:50
  Mark Pracht: I… Look, man, you're… you're preaching to the choir on that subject. I think… I think that Jack… Jack…
• 59:02
  Mark Pracht: My god.
• 59:04
  Mark Pracht: Like, there's pri- there's people who are… who could listen to this, and then they want to burn me at a stake, but Jack had a tan ear for dialogue.
• 59:11
  Mark Pracht: He really did.
• 59:13
  Mark Pracht: even when
• 59:15
  Mark Pracht: Even when he would write stuff and, like, and he would, he would write stuff into the margins of those Marvel books that then Stan would take.
• 59:22
  Mark Pracht: And it would be essentially kind of the same line, but he would massage it into something
• 59:28
  Mark Pracht: better. I mean, and that was later in the run, so whatever. But, but… like…
• 59:35
  Mark Pracht: there… there is weird shit that happens in all of the dialogue here that I still don't understand. Like, the weird…
• 59:43
  Mark Pracht: quotation marks around certain words that are like, what is that? What does that have to do with, like…
• 59:49
  Mark Pracht: That they're, you know, it's like a…
• 59:52
  Mark Pracht: I wish I could find an example, but I'm like, why is there a question? Why are there quotation marks? I don't understand that. And… and it just is like…
• 1:00:02
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, yeah. But…
• 1:00:06
  Mark Pracht: Yeah. And I have to, you know, and when I talk about, when I talk about that overnight flight.
• 1:00:13
  Mark Pracht: you know, this is what I'm talking about. By the time I got to this point, I was just like…
• 1:00:17
  Mark Pracht: what am I reading? What… what…
• 1:00:22
  Sean Harklerode: Well, it feels to me like… It's a golden age… comic.
• 1:00:30
  Sean Harklerode: without… the… energy of a Golden Age coming.
• 1:00:38
  Sean Harklerode: Right?
• 1:00:39
  Sean Harklerode: The… there's little characterization
• 1:00:44
  Sean Harklerode: But, you know, it's telling a story, which, you know, you know me, I like to get a comic book that tells a story, in one issue.
• 1:00:55
  Sean Harklerode: but… It doesn't have… I think the energy… That… that the…
• 1:01:04
  Sean Harklerode: Golden Age had. I mean, well, Golden Age stories were typically 3 stories in a book.
• 1:01:10
  Mark Pracht: Right? Right.
• 1:01:11
  Tad Eggleston: Well, but I also don't feel like it consistently tells a story in one issue. It's not only that it doesn't manage to have continuity, I think that…
• 1:01:22
  Tad Eggleston: There are a lot of times where it's all middle, or if you've got a beginning and an end, but the middle's really muddy, or…
• 1:01:31
  Tad Eggleston: You know…
• 1:01:32
  Mark Pracht: And I think… to what Sean just said, like, it's Kirby artwork, okay?
• 1:01:39
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah. That's got all the energy in the world.
• 1:01:43
  Mark Pracht: But it's coming up against the storytelling.
• 1:01:48
  Mark Pracht: And Jack is an incredible storyteller visually, but the dialogue and the actual plot feels like it's out of gas, but the art keeps telling you, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's almost… it gets to be kind of exhausting, because you're just like…
• 1:02:05
  Mark Pracht: Okay?
• 1:02:08
  Mark Pracht: why am I not more excited about this, right?
• 1:02:13
  Mark Pracht: And the thing is, is like, if we take… like, I feel like Commandi… maintains that energy.
• 1:02:21
  Mark Pracht: Hell, I think the demon maintains that energy a lot more…
• 1:02:25
  Mark Pracht: on a more regular basis. I… it's just, I feel like this was so personal, and so…
• 1:02:34
  Mark Pracht: It meant so much to him.
• 1:02:36
  Mark Pracht: that I think it just, like…
• 1:02:38
  Mark Pracht: he's trying to throw the kitchen sink into it, and… and the contractor's going, like, I already have 4… I have 4 kitchen sinks, I don't need any more, right?
• 1:02:47
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 1:02:50
  Tad Eggleston: Dear?
• 1:02:52
  Mark Pracht: So come back next week when we tell ya. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:55
  Tad Eggleston: Well, I mean, again, like…
• 1:03:01
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I mean… There's so much that this could be.
• 1:03:06
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah. And so much that's hiding in it, and, you know… Yeah, it's not…
• 1:03:16
  Tad Eggleston: I don't wanna, you know, I never wanna call it bad, because it's not. It's just…
• 1:03:23
  Tad Eggleston: you know, I like…
• 1:03:27
  Tad Eggleston: There are hints of him trying to work through his… both… both his professional demons and his war demons. There are…
• 1:03:35
  Tad Eggleston: Hints of him having something big to say.
• 1:03:40
  Tad Eggleston: But, I almost…
• 1:03:42
  Mark Pracht: I mean, like, all of these things are there.
• 1:03:44
  Tad Eggleston: I almost feel that, like…
• 1:03:47
  Tad Eggleston: Not only by trying to do it all at once, but by trying to do it all at once so fast, he robbed himself of…
• 1:03:57
  Tad Eggleston: Doing something truly epic.
• 1:03:59
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, I mean, and it's like I said, like, I think… I think that a different…
• 1:04:04
  Mark Pracht: a different structure to the books would have been interesting. Yeah. Like, a new graphic book that was all that mythological stuff… mythological stuff. The Orion stuff that's about, like, okay, here's the war on Earth, and then Mystery Miracle that's about the… you could actually do
• 1:04:23
  Mark Pracht: More of the lineage stuff.
• 1:04:25
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 1:04:26
  Mark Pracht: And I think.
• 1:04:27
  Tad Eggleston: But, I mean, even without, like, deciding what to do for him, like, I wonder how different it could have been with, like.
• 1:04:38
  Tad Eggleston: An inker that he truly trusted.
• 1:04:42
  Tad Eggleston: A… script partner.
• 1:04:48
  Tad Eggleston: and an editor that he trusted that was more of a sounding board than a, I'm gonna change anything.
• 1:04:55
  Tad Eggleston: And done over 5 to 10 years.
• 1:05:02
  Tad Eggleston: Rather than one. Yeah.
• 1:05:05
  Mark Pracht: No, I think that's not.
• 1:05:06
  Tad Eggleston: The part that we don't talk about enough is when you think of this as all done in one year, it's amazing!
• 1:05:15
  Tad Eggleston: But, I mean, it's why soap operas have trouble being amazing all the time. When you're… when you're recording 250 episodes a year.
• 1:05:24
  Tad Eggleston: I'm certain that if you combed through all of The Young and the Restless, you would find some of the greatest writing in American history for, like, 5 episodes here and 3 episodes there.
• 1:05:36
  Tad Eggleston: But to maintain that level, at that rate.
• 1:05:41
  Mark Pracht: That's why they have a team of writers.
• 1:05:44
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 1:05:44
  Mark Pracht: Right? And I think that… I think that, you know.
• 1:05:50
  Mark Pracht: That's… yeah. I mean, and like, look, we still have… we still have a ways to go on this. Right.
• 1:05:56
  Mark Pracht: But… so I don't want to blow our wad of, like, this is what.
• 1:05:59
  Tad Eggleston: No, no, this is more stuff for next month, yeah.
• 1:06:03
  Mark Pracht: It's… it's just, I think, you know, like, I don't want anybody to think that I'm dismissing these books, because I'm not.
• 1:06:10
  Tad Eggleston: not.
• 1:06:10
  Mark Pracht: I… and I certainly am not dismissing Jack Kirby, because Jack Kirby…
• 1:06:14
  Tad Eggleston: God? No.
• 1:06:15
  Mark Pracht: was a stone genius. The thing is, is like, as with so many people who are genius, man, you need somebody to come in and be like, okay, let's trim this off, and let's trim that off, like.
• 1:06:27
  Tad Eggleston: Well, and being genius doesn't stop you from being human.
• 1:06:31
  Mark Pracht: Right.
• 1:06:33
  Mark Pracht: Well, and I also think… I also 100% feel like you're right. I mean, like, he had… he had Steve Sherman and… and Mark Ivanier sitting there with him, doing his…
• 1:06:44
  Mark Pracht: You know, his assistants, Man, like…
• 1:06:48
  Mark Pracht: even there as a solid writer, you could have put them on, you know, you could have… like, I… like, at least let them write the forever people, you know?
• 1:06:58
  Tad Eggleston: And, like, one of the things I will toss out is who knows if he used them and they were too starstruck.
• 1:07:06
  Tad Eggleston: you know, if I'm gonna, like, want to make certain that I give all credit, they were young, you know, that'd be a question we'd have to ask evenir, or whatever.
• 1:07:14
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 1:07:15
  Tad Eggleston: you know, I don't want to make it out as, oh, he just completely dropped the ball, he had…
• 1:07:19
  Mark Pracht: Well, there is, like, one or two issues where it says, like, concepts from Mark Ivanier and Steve Sherman. Right.
• 1:07:28
  Tad Eggleston: Right. I mean, so, like, Jack wasn't…
• 1:07:31
  Mark Pracht: Jack wasn't…
• 1:07:33
  Mark Pracht: so wrapped up in… in himself to not credit people who give him ideas. I don't… look, I still think…
• 1:07:43
  Mark Pracht: that there's a lot of this… this whole thing that happened, right? That was… these books were coming out right about the same time that Jack moved out to California, and that Jack was… started going to San Diego for Comic-Con, and meeting all of these kids who thought he was a god, right? Yep.
• 1:08:01
  Tad Eggleston: Well, and he was already feeling burnt.
• 1:08:04
  Mark Pracht: Yeah.
• 1:08:06
  Tad Eggleston: I learned from Marvel, and he was setting up a new house, and his kids were.
• 1:08:10
  Mark Pracht: But I mean, I just think… I think it's sort of the…
• 1:08:13
  Mark Pracht: It's… it's like I call it the Roddenberry effect. It was the… Roddenberry after Trek was canceled, and then he started going to these conventions, where you have this room full of fans telling you that you are the great bird of the galaxy, and that you are a visionary who knows the future, and blah blah blah blah, and… and
• 1:08:34
  Mark Pracht: it's really hard to not start thinking of yourself in that way when all these people are telling you that, right? Yeah, yeah. And the thing is, it's like.
• 1:08:43
  Mark Pracht: To the point where I saw… it was a really interesting thing recently, where somebody had written into something, and they're like, I'm a huge Star Trek fan, and I don't know how to continue when I look outside the world, outside the window, because this isn't the world that Roddenberry promised us. And I'm like.
• 1:09:01
  Tad Eggleston: Rod and Derry didn't promise you a world.
• 1:09:03
  Mark Pracht: Roddenberry was just a guy who wrote a fucking TV show, you know, and he didn't…
• 1:09:07
  Tad Eggleston: He proposed a world, and yes, it seems like people have chosen otherwise, though one might point out that we haven't hit the World War III that happened in his world.
• 1:09:23
  Mark Pracht: yet. Well, yeah.
• 1:09:26
  Mark Pracht: And I hope we don't. But that's…
• 1:09:28
  Tad Eggleston: Kinda.
• 1:09:28
  Mark Pracht: But, I mean, like, that's a different story altogether, but I mean, it's sort of like, it does lead into this path where… and this is a whole different can of worms to open, but I mean, like, that I… I do…
• 1:09:42
  Mark Pracht: like, I think that… I think that this online world and this terminally online world has kind of taken something that has always been there in fandom, which is this sort of, like.
• 1:09:54
  Mark Pracht: tenuous grip on reality, And made it…
• 1:10:00
  Tad Eggleston: Dialed it to 11?
• 1:10:02
  Mark Pracht: Dialed it to 11.
• 1:10:03
  Mark Pracht: And I think that there is… there are… Because it's…
• 1:10:06
  Tad Eggleston: Because it's one more.
• 1:10:08
  Mark Pracht: Because it's one more, it's one louder.
• 1:10:10
  Mark Pracht: See, if you need to get over that…
• 1:10:12
  Mark Pracht: We just turned it up to 11.
• 1:10:14
  Mark Pracht: Anyway, but I mean, you know what I'm saying. Like, I think… I think that our… our terminally online world has taken everything and dialed it up to 11. Yeah. But, and I think… but I think that it's also, like, I… I encounter people all the time on, like, even, like, you know, like, on Blue Sky or Threads, or wherever, who seem to…
• 1:10:35
  Mark Pracht: have a problem grasping the reality of, you know, like, Sean and my friend Tim Seeley.
• 1:10:43
  Mark Pracht: you know, has been getting… left Twitter because of death threats over how he wrote Ileana Rasputin in his miniseries. And it's like.
• 1:10:53
  Mark Pracht: It's a… It's a fictional character.
• 1:10:57
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 1:10:58
  Mark Pracht: It's a fictional character. No one was really hurt, you know? Anyway.
• 1:11:02
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 1:11:02
  Mark Pracht: I can… that… sorry, rant, rant over.
• 1:11:06
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, you'd be.
• 1:11:07
  Mark Pracht: Go to your birthday party.
• 1:11:11
  Tad Eggleston: No, no, there's… there's a lot to be mined in our… in our next couple
• 1:11:15
  Tad Eggleston: episodes of the Fourth World Fan Club, and for that matter, it comes up in our other… well, not Fourth World Fan Club, Fourth World Book Club. It comes up in the Pope Lotter Book Club as well, because we're looking at a lot of the same.
• 1:11:31
  Tad Eggleston: Type of fandoms, and same type of…
• 1:11:36
  Tad Eggleston: taking… I mean, what superheroes ultimately are is just another genre of fiction, where you're taking…
• 1:11:45
  Tad Eggleston: You're taking something that's very… Comfortable to a set of readers, and trying to… need a…
• 1:11:57
  Tad Eggleston: A deeper meaning into it.
• 1:12:00
  Mark Pracht: Well, yeah, it's a… again, I know we're trying to wrap up, but I mean, it's like that article that I shared on Facebook recently, where it was about… the guy had written that there's not enough
• 1:12:10
  Mark Pracht: civilian characters in comics anymore. Like, every time there's a new character, it has to be somebody with superpowers. Or if there's a supporting character that's been there for 10 years, let's give them superpowers, you know? And it's like.
• 1:12:22
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 1:12:22
  Mark Pracht: And it's because, like, everybody wants like…
• 1:12:27
  Mark Pracht: This idea of just being… that there's a value in just being a normal person, you know?
• 1:12:35
  Mark Pracht: not to… like, it's one of those things when I get people who are so angry about Finn in the Star Wars movies not being a Jedi, and I'm like.
• 1:12:44
  Mark Pracht: Yeah, he's still a hero.
• 1:12:46
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 1:12:47
  Mark Pracht: Like, the coolest fuck… the coolest character in all of Star Wars is Han Solo. He's not a Jedi. Yeah.
• 1:12:53
  Tad Eggleston: I have pitched this before, and this is a… this is another place where I'm gonna do it.
• 1:13:00
  Tad Eggleston: The more of this I read, the more I think it's…
• 1:13:08
  Tad Eggleston: spiritual sequel is Alan Moore's ABC Comics.
• 1:13:13
  Tad Eggleston: With the difference being…
• 1:13:15
  Tad Eggleston: that Moore was a writer that likes to have a lot of control, who doesn't do his own art.
• 1:13:22
  Tad Eggleston: And, you know, you can write 5 books in a month.
• 1:13:25
  Tad Eggleston: Much easier than you can draw 5 books in a month.
• 1:13:30
  Tad Eggleston: And I wonder how much just that difference wound up being…
• 1:13:37
  Tad Eggleston: And the fact that I don't think Moore tried as hard to tie them all together. He just made them different genre books, but they have a very similar feel.
• 1:13:47
  Mark Pracht: Sure, 100%.
• 1:13:49
  Tad Eggleston: So that might be… that might be what we float into from Fourth World, from Fourth World to ABC. Just an idea.
• 1:13:58
  Tad Eggleston: I would actually even love to do it similarly, where we read them in the order they came out across the line, rather than one…
• 1:14:07
  Tad Eggleston: series.
• 1:14:08
  Tad Eggleston: So anyway…
• 1:14:10
  Mark Pracht: I… I could be interested in that. Anyway, go to your birthday party.
• 1:14:14
  Sean Harklerode: I would say that next month's episode goes to…
• 1:14:17
  Tad Eggleston: Sean Harker wrote, do either of you have anything to plug right now?
• 1:14:19
  Mark Pracht: And then it stops.
• 1:14:22
  Tad Eggleston: Do either of you have anything to plug right now?
• 1:14:28
  Mark Pracht: I mean, we're both… we're both artistic associates at the City Live theater, and they're opening their Christmas show, which is…
• 1:14:37
  Mark Pracht: Sherlock Holmes in the Christmas… Clowns?
• 1:14:41
  Mark Pracht: Sean and… neither Sean or I are involved with it, but we're going to the, opening day… opening performance this afternoon, so…
• 1:14:50
  Tad Eggleston: Okay, well, you have to tell me what you think, because I love Sherlock Holmes, but… but…
• 1:14:54
  Mark Pracht: It's… I go back and forth on…
• 1:14:57
  Tad Eggleston: On non… on non, non-Doyle. Sometimes it's done really well, and sometimes it's not.
• 1:15:04
  Tad Eggleston: G.K. Chesterton.
• 1:15:06
  Sean Harklerode: Oh, it's based…
• 1:15:08
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, that could be… that could work.
• 1:15:10
  Mark Pracht: I… I'm gonna… I'm gonna say you need to wrap up, because I… Yes. I could go on and on about that, too, so…
• 1:15:18
  Tad Eggleston: Well, another time. So many things to talk about.
• 1:15:23
  Tad Eggleston: For 22 Panels, this has been the Fourth World Book Club. We will see you after the next page.