Latest / Pod Therapy / #381: Medicating Depression, Addiction Accountability, Losing Weight

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#381: Medicating Depression, Addiction Accountability, Losing Weight · Pod Therapy

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but again, I'm going there on the second, so
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I would not don't.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Regular sushi dinner. Don't give a ship. That's a performance
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: T shirt night. Oh, wet T shirt is game? That's cool.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What T shirt night is the same night as the
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: boy scouts? Yep, yeah, that's all right. That's how they learn.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: That's they prepared kids as badge is that he prepared,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: always ready splash them.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Let's get the I kind of miss Whitney and be honest. Yeah,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna be honest. From fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. This
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: is pod Therapy, real people, real problems, and real therapists.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: You could submit your questions anonymously at pod therapy dot
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: nets or email us at pod therapy guys at gmail
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: dot com. Whitney is not here. There's only one person
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: who knows outside of this office who knows where she
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: is and good luck. Yeah that's Jim. That's not Whitney.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: It's time for some podcast.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: I just got a text and uh, okay, yeah it's
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Bea and okay, yeah, apparently we're bombing.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I got that too. It's like we all got ship.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Nothing about Whitney. I just hope she's not in Yemen.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: I need to make some calls real quick.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Well, welcome back.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: To another fine episode of our program as we begin
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: our march into Mental Health Awareness Month. It is coming
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: up here in May. That is in May.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Oh I was not aware that they're doing it this year.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, we like to keep it going, so that'll be
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: coming up. We always like to put together a couple
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: of special little ditties in May. Lots of fun times
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: and we usually do some kind of fundraiser that'll come up.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: And it's also the time of year where we do
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of trying to drive the the average listener
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: and the main show over to patreon dot com. Slash
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Therapy through a couple and the Hat support a mental
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: health program that has endured for eight long years. And
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: the other day I went into Spotify and I went
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: through the search thing to see their podcast collections. You know,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: they got a lot going on, and I just wanted
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: to see where we would show up in mental health podcasts.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: So they have categories and then they have them ranked
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: all the way up to fifty top fifty in every category,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: and they do not have a mental health category. So
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: I went into health and fitness. We did not appear
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: in the top fifty. So then I typed in the
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: word therapy in the search bar.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: I'll bet you could type in pod therapy and I
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: didn't want to give it to scroll.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: There's still quite a few actually, but we did show
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  Speaker 1: up when I typed in therapy, so I was really
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: proud for that. We were probably in the top ten.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: So that was pretty cool, just to show it's an
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: honor to be nominated.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so thank you Spotify. Glad that we could really
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: a nominations just a search engine. But that's fine. There's that.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can searched for it. But I was just
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: glad we arrived. So we've made it. But yep, pay
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: trend dot com slash therapy. You can join our pre
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: show show where you can learn all of these hosts
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: favorite and unfavorite vegetables.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: Oh and you'll also if you if you tune into
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: this week's pre show show, you will hear Jim just
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: get something right.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, oh thank you, just gets it right and win
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: a bet. Yeah, I want to bet.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: I want to bet.
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, got something right, very rare, just no question, yes,
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: just right, just slam dunk on one.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really good. It was weird.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Well good, I just got myself some beers.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: I really look.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: I looked for a button on my drop pad over
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: here that had a drop before Jim got it right.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Did not have I don't have that drop, which we
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: need now. I feel that we need a jingle of
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: some kind.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: It will hurry, it will hurry to get it to.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Us, though I'll need it eventually. Yeah, broken clocks are
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: write twice.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: It was a little bit like winning a hand of
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: poker with a royal flush. Yeah, but only betting five dollars.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely under bet on that. Yeah. Also,
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: my confidence was very low. Jim. Jim had all the power.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Jim had the U.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Jim got di selected be the terms yep yep, and
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: he got a beer.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Yep. I took a nick and I both owe Jim
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: a beer. Yeah yeah, not even could be domestic. You
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: have to be good. Yeah, just PBR daddy likely fa whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know about all that.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: She just reaching out. The sacup is going under his desk.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Oh good, He's got a nice warm natural ice.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Excellent. There you go, there you go.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Damn, these things are six percent alcohol cold. It is
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: cold ice brewed for.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: A smooth taste.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: M Y gotta pop this bitch open, and uh it's
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Natty paid up.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there we go, debt paid. I kind of think
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: that Jim brought that case of Natty Ice in. He did. No,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: it was Whitney she ice like years ago.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: It was in like her second week because she was like,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: oh I saw that you guys have be I thought
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: i'd buy some beers and.
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: We were like, what the fuck? Where did you find
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: Natty Ice? She got at the gas station. Yeah, I'm
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: surprised this is still in here. Wow, and cold you
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: refrigerated the fridge?
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: All right?
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: That many of them left, well, it's a rare minus
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: one patroon dot com slash therapy, you can hear all
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: about our cook one.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, Nick joining the Natty Oh shit, I'm really
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: gonna have to do a little bit more thinking on
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: the next time. So I need a jingle, by the way,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: somebody please We got some great questions for the show,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: and our first one is a short and sweet one,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: but I think very good.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Very relevant.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Here am I medicatable? I like that word? Am I medicatable?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Hello? Friends?
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: My therapist has been encouraging me to see a psychiatrist
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  Speaker 1: to discuss getting on some medication for depression. I don't
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  Speaker 1: really understand how medication can help you with the thoughts
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  Speaker 1: that I'm having. You can't medicate away the fact that
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  Speaker 1: I hate myself. I guess I'm just wondering what signs
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  Speaker 1: might suggest someone would benefit from psychiatric care. Uh, and
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  Speaker 1: what are your takes on what can actually be changed
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  Speaker 1: using medication? Thanks Anonymous.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: I do want to say that if your name were
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: Kate and your write in name were Medicatable, that's a
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: really good name.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: For this show.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, we need to bring back people using
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: fake names that go with the question.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know it's Houston. Yes.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Like we had like something like somebody Terry or something recently.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: I think it wasn't.
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  Speaker 1: The last was like thoughtful terror. I don't know what
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: it was, but Terry was in it. Or it might
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: have been Thomas.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know. I starved with the t terrible. That
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: might have been it terrible Terry. This this story is great.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Let's yeah, let's send this one back.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, rejected, send back, send this back when you.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Got me, Kate.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I think we can just call the writer Kate, Kate,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: and actually all right, yeah, all right, that's okay. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: so what do we think about depression the medicine and
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: this question of like how often do we even think
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  Speaker 1: that's a good idea depression?
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: They say depression?
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  Speaker 1: They did, you know, they said medicine for depression.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So I get the writer's point. Okay, the writer's
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  Speaker 2: point basically saying like, here's the problem. The problem is
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  Speaker 2: is I hate myself? Right, So what's the pill that
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: you take that not hate yourself?
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: I've got some of those, yeah, uncle Jacob's pharmacies, open,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: k I got The problem is you're looking for the
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  Speaker 1: wrong stuff, shopping at the wrong.
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  Speaker 2: Guaranteed like this doctor, that is right, we can So
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I'll give you my take on this, which may or
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: may not be worth anything. But I really understand that
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  Speaker 2: because it doesn't make sense, It doesn't make logical sense. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: why would this change my thoughts? However, if you think
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: about it, like like, if there's something wrong with your heart,
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  Speaker 2: if there's a defect, then we we can notice that
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  Speaker 2: in different things, right in your pulse, your blood pressure,
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  Speaker 2: all these different things. If there's something wrong with any
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: other organ, you can see it in all these different things.
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  Speaker 2: If there's something wrong with your brain, you kind of
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  Speaker 2: see it everywhere, like in a way like it could
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  Speaker 2: be anything from your balance to your vision to the
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  Speaker 2: way you taste food. And that does include perception or
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  Speaker 2: other problems like heart problems, right, yeah, exactly, it could
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  Speaker 2: be brain and so perception is one of those things,
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  Speaker 2: and so it it from that perspective, it does make
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  Speaker 2: a little bit of sense where yes, you're there isn't
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  Speaker 2: a pill that's just going to change your thoughts necessarily,
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  Speaker 2: that doesn't exist. But if you are able to medicate
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  Speaker 2: your depression and your depression changes how you see the
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  Speaker 2: world or how you perceive the world, right, it likely
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  Speaker 2: will have an effect on how you feel towards yourself.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yes, no, that's a really good point because
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  Speaker 1: if you watch commercials for antidepressants, they warn you this
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  Speaker 1: could also cause suicidal thoughts. So clearly they have a
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  Speaker 1: finger on a button here. Clearly there is a button
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  Speaker 1: that can influence your perception of things, your thoughts and writer.
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  Speaker 1: This is a really good question because a lot of
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  Speaker 1: people just think depression is a mood thing, like it's
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  Speaker 1: just a I feel the emotion of sadness, and really
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  Speaker 1: it is bigger than that, It is more enduring than that,
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  Speaker 1: and that's why when we look at the symptoms of depression,
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  Speaker 1: sadness is one of the things. And we're also looking
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: for changes in behavior like anhedonia, weight, fluctuation, lethargy. None
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: of those are emotions, right, those are just behaviors that
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  Speaker 1: we're noticing in the person. But another thing that we're
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  Speaker 1: looking for in the diagnosis of major depressive disorder is
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: the thoughts that you are having. And actually we do
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: associate those with that brain disease. And we're going to
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: talk in a second about how SSRIs affect the brain
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  Speaker 1: and why this actually influences thoughts. But like, this is
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: a symptom that we're looking for and it's one that
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: we want to see change. You could ask the same
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: question about therapy, How can therapy make me stop hating myself?
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: And it starts with acknowledging that you're saying these things
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: in your own head, that you are perceiving yourself a
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: certain way, that you are forming a full opinion on
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: yourself that's focused on what is lacking in you, what
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: is unsatisfying, A sense of despair, a sense of stuckness,
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  Speaker 1: that nothing's going to get better, a valuation of yourself,
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  Speaker 1: and so like therapy and medicine are trying to wiggle
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  Speaker 1: that perspective free. But a lot of people have this
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: false idea that if they take the pills or if
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: they do therapy, they're going to love themselves. That's it's
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: not true. Like the goal is to not want to
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: kill yourself. That would be great. We'll take sadness, we
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: just won't want pathological dying sadness, right, or sadness to
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: the point of despair where you can't do anything.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Or I mean with a lot of medications really are
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: about what's the word I'm looking for, but decreasing symptoms
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: to a more manageable difference, managing symptoms. Yeah, it's it's
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: more about that than it is about like a cure.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: All it's a dulling of the edge of the blade. Yeah,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: just bringing back onto the road.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna say two.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, there is a you say in your letter
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: that your issue is with the thought and not the
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: type of thought. I don't know quite how a frating myself. Yeah,
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: your issue is like I have. The thought I have
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: is that I hate myself. Will this pill get rid
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: of that thought? And the answer is, of course not.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: But we know about different types of thoughts. We've talked
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: about different types of thoughts of the show. If I
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: go to my therapist and I say, I am you know,
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: I've got I am picturing suicide, I'm contemplating suicide.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: I've got a plan, alls I've bought the stuff to
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: do it. I am. I am right there, I'm ready
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: to go.
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  Speaker 3: That is a different type of thought than an intrusive
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: thought that comes in as I'm just driving down the
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: road and go, what if I just turned into oncoming
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: traffic right now? So we we identify those as different
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: types of thoughts. We already do that, yes, And now
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: tell me, guys, with the with the medication, what we're
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: really looking to do here is we're kind of changing
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: how the brain works a little bit on some small degree,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: and so we're looking to put that thought that that
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: I hate myself thought into a more manageable box.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: And that's what that medication is going to help us do. Yeah,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: to give you kind of another way of looking at
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: sometimes it's easier to see the effects of this with
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: like anxiety. So if so you have somebody that is
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: so anxious that they can't work on their anxiety. It's
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: kind of like, let's prescribe a medication to dull this
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: a little bit, make it affair so that. Yeah, so
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: then now how psychotherapy can come in and actually provide
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: you some tools to deal with.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: And that's very much the way we fight depression. Depression
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: is a son of a bitch. It is really hard
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: to fight because depression is like a fucking mental ecosystem
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: that comes in and it's like it's hard to point
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: write at it, whereas anxiety usually is very specific, Like
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: you're talking to somebody with anxiety and like, I am
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: specifically fearing this, this is what triggers me. Here's my experience.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: And they're very motivated. They're like, make it the fuck
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: go away. Like, I'll take any drugs you want me
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: to take, I'll do any thinkings you want me to think.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I will read a book depressed people, just one though, yeah,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: just one book. Let's not go crazy and only a
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: coloring book. But like depressed people, part of the disease
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: of depression is it disables your ability to fight it
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: because it takes away your will power. So then you
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: feel like this this gripping despair, and you sense that
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: this cannot get better, you lose all your fight and
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: that's how it starts to drag you under the water here,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: and it's just like slowly starts to win. So you're right, Nick, Like,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: whenever we're trying to fight depression before we can usually
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: even have a fighting chance with psychotherapy, which is designed
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: to help loosen up some of these thoughts and change
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: and challenge them. Sometimes we need the medicine to make
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: it a fair fight. So let's talk a little bit
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: about that. And we're gonna circle around to exercise, and
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna bring it up now because this is actually
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: very related to the medicine.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Because I was gonna leave, but yeah, we're gonna come back.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: So like a famous medicine that we use for antidepression
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: is a selective serotonin re uptake inhibitor ssriyes, and all
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: these are doing. You've got these old dripping faucets in
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: your brain that drop these things called neurotransmitters, and your
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: brain needs this stuff. It's just the fluids that run
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: through the brain, neurochemicals, and one of them is called serotonin.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: And all this medicine does is sort of clog the
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: drain that sucks back up the serotonin. Okay, so you
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: imagine this little sink is dripping. We're just throwing in
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: some tissues. We're clogging up the drain. It slows it
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: down so that we get more serotonin in that sink,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: and your brain is just getting more of its own serotonin.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Once we get that serotonin up in your brain, which
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: is why it takes weeks and weeks for this medicine
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: to even work, because we're not really adding much to
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: your brain. We're just allowing the slow and steady build
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: up of serotonin. This neurotransmitter, serotonin stimulates a neurogenetic growth.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: So you have this thing called the dendritic forest. So
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: you have all these old neurons. You remember this from
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: biology class. They show you a little like tree endings
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: that are like reaching out and touching each other. Well,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: we have seen that in a major depressive disorder patients,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: they're dendritic forest. The little trees they get scarce and
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: so they lose touch with each other. The density starts
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: to thin out, and the serotonin we've discovered, which rigorous
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: exercise can also do, increases the density of that forest.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: It stimulates. It's like a fertilizer on the tree forest
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: that's causing it to bloom. And so we're getting denser
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: dendrite connections. As we get that, we're noticing a stabilization
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: in mood. So the spikes and the valleys are lower
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: and higher, right, So the spike's damp in a little bit,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: so people don't feel as much anxiousness as much negative
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: power emotion, and the lows kind of raise a little bit.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: So they'll say, you know what, that despair just turned
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: into more like a moderate sadness. And some people will say, look,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I actually feel kind of numb on this medicine, which
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: will take compared to something like major depressive disorder. Right,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: we can do numb for a while, will take that.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: So people will tell us I'm still having the thought
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I hate myself. It bothers me less, and it kind
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: of equates this to another motion like irritability. Right, So
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: you might say, I'm so pissy whenever I don't have
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: any sleep and I'm sleep deprived. My kids are making
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: noise in the house and it's the same thing they
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: always do. But I am fucking furious and I'm throwing
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: the remote control. I'm yelling at the kids, and I'm
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: stomping upstairs. I'm so angry at them. Those sounds just
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: bother me. When I have a good night's sleep, i
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: wake up, my kids are still making that noise. I
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: have a higher tolerance for it. I still dislike that sound.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: I still am bothered by, but like my pain, tolerance
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: to deal with it is higher. I am still irritated,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: but the irritability is not breaking through and controlling me
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: as it does when I'm sleep deprived. That is a
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: really good metaphor to describe what the depression is doing
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: and what the inside depressant is trying to do against it.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: So by increasing the serotonin and density of the dendritic forest,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: by getting some of those soothing things that we get
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: out of this extra serotonin, then basically you'll still have
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: the thought I hate myself. I dislike what I'm seeing
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: in the mirror. I'm unsatisfied in my life accomplishments. I
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: don't feel like I have worth. But just like with
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the noise from the kids, it doesn't cause as much distress.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: It is bothering you less. That is the force field
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: that the SSRI gives us, and that is the opening
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: that we often need for psychotherapy to jump in and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: now get to those thoughts and start challenging them. Just
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: like the guy who's had no sleep and is like,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I really need therapy to help me deal with my
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: kids better. I don't want to blow up on them,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: And it's like, well, number one, let's get your brain
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: a fighting chance, right, Let's get your eight hours. Then
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I will come in alongside you and we'll start working
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: on the anger cycle, and we'll start working on cognitive
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: distortions around your kids and understanding your relationship with these
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: noises and blah blah blahs and behavioral interventions you could
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: do to manage your kids differently or change your house differently,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: But without that brain chemistry, it's a really hard fight.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: So when we're fighting depression, we usually talk about like
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: the triangle, like we're trying to wiggle all the corners
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: of the triangle and the three big areas that we're
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: trying to wiggle to just kind of break depression free
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: in the person's life. One biochemistry, So that's the medicine option.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: It's also nutrition. It's also fitness as well, can be
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: part of the biochemistry side. Another piece of the corner
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: is the cognitive side, and that's where therapy is usually
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: very involved. And then the last piece of the corner
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: is actually, so we got biochemistry, we've got cognition, lifestyle
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: and so like anything we can that also is usually
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: where we're gonna find fitness. But getting you out of
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: the house, getting you into sunlight, getting a job, getting
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: a hobby, getting friends, socializing, saying yes, reading books, listening
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: to music, doing anything the fuck differently than you did before.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: If we can wiggle all three corners, sometimes we can
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: jostle the depression loose over time, but a lot of
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: times it's an endurance challenge where we're gonna get better
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: if we do everything as throw the kitchen sink at
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: the fucking problem as long as we can, and eventually
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: this this cloud that's over us, this ecosystem will dissipate
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and people will get better. But writer, we got to
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: throw everything at it. And that's why that medicine can
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: be helpful.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: It's just a tool in the toolbox. It's not gonna
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: fix it. Yeah, And I think that's you know, I
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: always I think Jim used the analogy of four I
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: kind of use like a three like three three legs
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: on a stool. Yes, like psychotherapy, psychopharmacology, and then lifestyle
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: slash exercise kind of being the third. And each of
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: those is going to be very important, you know, and
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: they serve a function. But you know, Jacob's right, one
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: of those is just one by itself. A lot of
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: times it's not going to fix. It's usually usually yeah,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: it's usually a combination of those.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: On this topic of depression, there is some really great research.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I actually was going to forward you a really great
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: article slash podcast on this, and I'll plug the podcast.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Great show Psychiatry and Psychotherapy podcast, really really good, been
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: around forever, run by a great psycho or a psychiatrist.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: They go deep into it.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: He uses all of his grad students to like do
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: research papers for every show. It's really really good. It
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: actually qualifies you for continuing education. It's really really cool.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: You could take tests after it and get CEUs.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: What would we need to do? Probably less, Dick jokes
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: a few. Yeah, we'd have to cut it down a few?
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: How many less? Oh boy? If it's if it's more
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: than one, I'm not okay, okay, yeah, yeah, I think
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: it's like Fox for the R rating.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: I think like maybe you get one because I just
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: bring it down like half a joke. Yeah, maybe just
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: like give the set up but not get a bunch
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: of lies.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: We should do that. That would be a great show,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: is just keep setting up dick jokes and never deliver it. Oh,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: just my wife's used to that.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: We have to start over again. Yes, that'd be fine.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: But no, there's some great new research that I was
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: just looking at. So, uh, powerlifting, like high intensity workouts HIT.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Is that what that's called?
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: So high intensity interval training?
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, so research showing that powerlifting or maybe the word
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: powerlifting is not correct, but like.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Powerlifting is going to be different than HIT. Well, but yeah,
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: go on.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: So they were just it was high intensity stuff, so
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: not endurance work, not necessarily cardio work. It was lift
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: the fucking thing, go big and huge data showing that
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: that was having as good or better of an effect
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: than a lot.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Of the SSR eyes.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: It was fascinating and like, but this is something so
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: like metabolic psychiatry is this whole new area. Actually sent
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: you a link to a clinic that's just doing an
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: entire residential treatment. Yeah, that's metabolic psychiatry based, but like
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: the other big piece of research was ketogenic diet and
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: like that another one that was really doing a lot
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: of work for epilepsy and and also for depression. And
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: so it's like really fascinating you think about like your
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: microbiome and like all the hormones and endorphins and like
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the way that the brain body connection works. All this
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: stuff is interrelated, and so like it really is interesting
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: writer because you think, like, what the fuck can any
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: neurochemical do to my thoughts? And then you realize, Bro,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: you are neurochemicals.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Right, That's what we are.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can I can get you to think thoughts
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: about ladies by injecting a fucking chemical in you.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: How did you control my thoughts? I get to thoughts
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: for a motherfucker. Yeah, Like all it's all I do.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: And give you some of that. I mean, it is
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: really interesting that how exercise basically turns your brain into
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: its own pharmacy. It does. Yeah, it basically allows for
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: all of these things that are already floating around in there,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Like you know Gym's talking about SSRIs. SSRIs are just
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: allowing for substance, Yeah, to work better. That's it. That's
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: all it does, you know, and it's you know, and
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I brought this up. I remember a few episodes ago
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: about like how you know, when we're exercising, you know,
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: muscles will burn fat molecules for fuel, right, and so
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: the release of these fatty acids into the blood stream.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: It releases fatty acids into the bloodstream which are then
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: carried on transport proteins as is a trip to fan right,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: the turkey stuff. That's it, Yeah, exactly, the turkey was
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: the same. That was the exact same joke that you
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: made last time. That's the only word I know that goes.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: I know that not even a joke, a statement, a
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: thing that he says. Side note, Okay, last last episode
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: episode title for the for the Patriot part of the show,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: he called uh concrete jungle wet dream tomato. Yes, in
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: reference to a joke. It wasn't a joke. It was
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: a reference made by the Hawktua girl or whatever. Oh.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: So when we were when we were doing the New
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: York City trivia, we're talking about New York City, he
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: made that reference and the three of us did not
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: respond to it at all, And then he made it
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: again later on in the show. And the three of
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: us did not respond to it all. Yeah, so Jim
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: was like, God, damn it, someone's gonna laugh at this. Yeah,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: so then he made that the episode time. Yes, So
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: if there's anything, we're all number one in comedies. If
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: you tell a joke and no one laughs, make sure
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: to tell it two more times.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Also, nobody in the discord no, no, not one person no,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: And one person I think got it wrong on purpose
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: and said, oh, Jim's making that is like a Frank
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Sinatra reference, and I'm like, it's Beyonce, and so like
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: I jump in and correct them. And now that I'm
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: looking back on it, I'm pretty sure it was a bait.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: I think they did that to piss me off. Probably, Yeah,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you were talking about turkey juice.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, so trip to fan is carried on these transport proteins,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: but now it has to compete for spots because the
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: free fatty acids are also on these transport proteins, which
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: means you have an excess to trip to fan, which
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: gets in passes the blood brain barrier goes into the brain,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: while trip to fan is essential for creating serotonin. Right,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: So now you're you're basically just creating more of its right,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: and so like I mean, so exercise is useful for
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: that number one because it definitely has a huge effect
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: on biochemically what's happening in the brain. Yes, so it
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: does that, but it also does a lot of other
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: things too that like other forms of therapy like equine
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: therapy or experiential therapy and things like that do, which
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: is that it kind of puts you in a position
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: where you kind of learn more about yourself and you
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: kind of push your limits. You're like, oh shit, you know,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I didn't think I could do this, and look look
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: at what I just did. This is amazing. I just
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: did this thing.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: You know. Novel is a big treatment for depression. Yeah,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: doing learn all the fucking language. Yeah, go somewhere you've
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: never gone, do anything different.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Being able to like have those experiences it kind of
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: puts everything else into perspective, like, oh, yeah, maybe I
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: can handle these depressive thoughts because I didn't think I could.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: You know, I didn't think I could deadlift two hundred
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: and twenty five pounds and I just did that no problem. Yes,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: you know, and now like you know, it's.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: It's anything novel, anything new. Exercise definitely releases tons of
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: stuff into your brain and and does increase the dendritic
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: density as well. But you know, writer, just my last
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: thought on this, hearing you say I hate myself, I
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: just want to also remind you that in mental health,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: we associate that thought with a delusion. Okay, depression is
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: a delusion to us. It is a false narrative that
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: is not true, and it's so deadly because to your bones,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: you believe it is true. And every that's being nice
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: to you that's trying to talk you out of that thought,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: they are lying, or they're trying to be kind, or
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: they're merciful, or they pity you. But the real objective
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: truth is that you do not have worth, and all
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: of your worst criticisms of self are true, and that
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: feeling is a fact. We know that is not the case.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: The reason this is a diagnosable illness in a human being,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: a disorder of an organ, which in this case is
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: the thinking brain. We know that is true. That is
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: that it's lying to you because this is delusional talk.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: These are false narratives, they are false perspectives. We know
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: that because we have studied this for a long fucking time,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: and we can see that when people have these symptoms
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: of depression, they start thinking this way. And I tell
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: you that writer, not to invalidate your realities or what
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: you're going through, but to challenge them and insist that
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: you disbelieve them.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, And when.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: We do therapy, we let people talk it out. We
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: let people say what they're feeling. We don't tell them
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: they're wrong, and you know, no, no, no no. We
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: talk through what they're feeling and what their truth is.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: But we always leave room for the hard fucking fact
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: that depression is a delusion, that it is lying to you,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: and that if we endure and we do everything different,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: if we throw the kitchen sink at this and we rally,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: and even though this thing is trying to pull you
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: under the water, it's a fucking octopus that's wrapped all
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: around you and it's dragging you to the fucking deep.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: If you will fight it, you will prevail, It will
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: let you go, and you will get past it. And
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: then one day you will look back and you'll think,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: holy shit, I can't believe how dark my thoughts once were.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I can't believe how little I thought of myself, how
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: willing I was to die. That's how dark it can get.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: You have to not believe that shit. I need to
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: believe your buddies on a podcast that these thoughts are false,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: that they will not endure, and that you can get
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: beyond them. And if you have to take some medicine
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: to make it a fair fright fight, writer, I hope
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: you will do that, because that is what is clinically recommended.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: And also, I think that's one of the things that
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: you know, we talk about, you know, people asking like,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: well do I have this diagnosis? Do I not? And
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: we're kind of on both sides of that fence like, Okay, yeah,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: maybe you do, but understand what a diagnosis is and
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: what is actually mean. But some people get a lot
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: of relief from having a diagnosis, and I think this
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: is one of the cases in which that can be
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: very helpful. Yes, because especially for people with depression, where
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: they feel like this is me, like my depression is me,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: and then when they get that that diagnosis of major
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: depressive disorder and they realize that, oh shit, no, that's
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: not me, right, that's something I'm dealing with, that's a
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: condition that I have, but that's not me. That can
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: be very helpful absolutely.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Depression is like a fucking parasite in your brain, and
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: it convinces you that this is the truth, right, and
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: it wants you to end it, and like you just
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: have to fucking remember it's not me.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: It's the parasite. It's like a worm in your brain.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: A brain.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you find yourself it's just like wanting
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: to say dumb shit about autism, and it's just like
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: gets to a microphone.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: That's the worm talk.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: That might be the fucking worm. Have you seen the
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: onion article? RFK breaks into sour Patch Kids factory demands
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the no where autism is made anyway. Writer, hang in there,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: take your pills, buddy, there's nothing wrong with take a
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: little bit the doctress, do what the docs tell you
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: to do. We're gonna take a quick break, and when
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: we come back, we are talking about the difference between
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: fault and grace. You're listening to pod therapy.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: They're spelled differently. That's spoiler support done. Today's episode is
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: brought to you by Judy Schneider, Leon Casa, Carolyn Albert,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Sammy Scoop, Sarah Smith, mikem Darren Cunningham, Cody, the DeLorean Guy,
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  Speaker 2: Freddie and Leisha and Gabriel Adam. Would you like to
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: sponsor to the show? Become a thera producer on patreon
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: dot com slash therapy. So this is gonna be a
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: one v one trivia? Are you blind? Let's do it?
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I can't be blind, all right? One v one? Since uh,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: since it is April, uh huh and uh we're fresh
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: into the new baseball season. We got some major league
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: baseball trip let's fucking go.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: I got nothing, but it feels if it feels like
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: the right, if you're ever.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Gonna win major League baseball trivia, I think, yeah.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I got a good shot against points, two
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: points on the fly, one point, multiple choice, Jim, it's
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: all yours, all right?
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Here we go, which picture through a perfect game on
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: June eighteenth, nineteen ninety nine?
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: You know what, I'm gonna take a shot on this one,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: all right? Give me Nolan Bryan?
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Fuck? What what was the year nineteen ninety nine? June eighteenth,
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: nineteen nine nine? You were thinking? June nineteenth? Oh God,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: I get it, though, I get it.
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah, let's see who was big at that point? Would
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: that be like a Randy Johnson? Oh shit, is that
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: your answer it is no.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Oh that was solid though he was one of thetimate choice.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Give me options, okay, Randy Johnson, David Cone, Pedro Martinez,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Roger Clemens, gimme Clemens, no.
• 32:03
  Speaker 6: Pedro, no, no, you know what, the multiple choice and
• 32:15
  Speaker 6: you each whift on the fly.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: I think that's five points from Okay, it's Jacob. Which
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: major league team was the first to win one hundred
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: games in a season?
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: Oh?
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Wow, wow? Oh the Yankees?
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: No, all right, I'm gonna take options.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, the New York Yankees, Chicago Cubs, Boston Red Sox,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Saint Louis Cardinals.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Fuck, I'm gonna go with the Cardinals.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Hold on, I just want to see what year this was.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: It's gotta be one of those original teams, because I mean,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: come on, by now, somebody has to have won one
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: hundred games.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, you would just say Cardinals. No, God damn it, Tubbies. Yes, fine,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: all right, Jim who is the only player to win
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: the MVP Award in both the American and National League?
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: Oh all right, so you know what have to be
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: common era? Yes, would be because back in the day
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: they didn't trade a whole lot. Yeah, I want a
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: whole lot of free agents.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: All right, give me options, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds, Frank Robinson,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Albert Poohles. Okay, I was gonna say bo Jackson some
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: I'm really glad options take the most bo Jackson, Like
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: I'm going with Barry Bonds. It feels bo jacksony no, no,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: come back over here.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Give me those options again. Well, the two that the
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: left are Frank Robinson or Albert Poohles.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Jesus, I don't know who either of those people are.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I definitely know what.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Now give me Frankie Robinson. Yes, yeah, bitches, it wasn't.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Gone back and forth because there's still the reason. I
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: knew that. Yeah, I think he only played.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: I also knew that, as is clearly indicated by the store.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, Jacob, Yes, which team drafted Derek Jeter options? I
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: mean drafted Boston Red Sox, Cincinnati Reds, New York Yankees,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Atlanta Braves.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: There's no fucking way the Yankees picked I don't think
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: that the Yankees picked him up.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: I feel like this is going to be another one
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: of those long list of reasons that the Reds are
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: still bad. I like your reasons.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you to know spiritually though. I see
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: that point, and you deserve it.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, the twins would have been the perfect Yeah,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: they draft everybody, right, all right?
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: So no Yankees, no Reds. The other ones were socks?
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: And who red Sox.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: Or the Braves or the Yankees? We have? We don't
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: know for sure that the Yankees aren't. Aren't it. I
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: don't take the Atlanta Braves? No, God damn it? Is
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: it the Socks?
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: No, Jesus another dime. I'm kicking ass, dude.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: We're These are tough questions, all right.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: So we're one to one to ten to five every
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: time we fuck up that many times? Right, yep, that's fair.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Oh it's gonna be a steep climb out of this hole,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: all right.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Question number two. I thought we already covered this differently.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Oh that's right.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Faults, yeah, all right. Difference between fault and grace. I
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: recently listened to one of your episodes about addiction, sorry,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: and it sparked a question. I really struggle to find
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: the line between giving myself grace when I fail and
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: engage in a negative behavior while still taking responsibility for
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: what happened. I guess I feel like every time I fail,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: it has to be completely my fault, because otherwise it
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: would mean that I'm not in control. If I could
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: have stopped it and didn't, then it's my fault, and
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: I feel so guilty for having failed. If I couldn't
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: have stopped my behavior, then that horrifying because it then
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: that's horrifying because it means that I don't have control,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: which means I might never be able to fix it.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: So how do you balance these two things? Hopefully this
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: question made some sense. It's confusing my brain too, Thank
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: you anonymous.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: See this makes perfect sense to me. Good question. Yeah,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: because we talk a lot about this in addiction recovery.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: First off, I would ask you to kind of think
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: about what faults, what that word means to you, Okay,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: because based off the question, it doesn't sound like it
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: sounds like the way that you have attributed it is.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: It's more than just fault. So we like to talk about,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: or at least I'll speak for myself, the difference between
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: guilt and shame, right, okay, So guilt means I recognize
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: that I did something right my actions cause this result,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: I am guilty, Yes, that's it. Shame is something you
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: pile on top of guilt. So guilt is I did this,
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: I'm responsible. Shame is I'm a shitty person because I
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: did this and I'm responsible. Right, those are two different things,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: and I kind of picture this as being similar to that. Yeah,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: I like that. I like that a lot.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: And this is a really good question because, like we
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: do see addiction as medicine right, as science, and we
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: do look at this as a disorder of the brain,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: and it is very complex. A moment ago we started
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: talking about the complexity depression and how there's all these
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: metaphors we could use, like a like a parasite and
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: your brain is functionally broken and you can't believe it.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: So like this is where I kind of place this,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: And Nick, I'll be curious if this resonates in a
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: good way to me if somebody has what I consider
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: to be the disease of addiction or the propensity for addiction,
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: but usually by this point it's manifesting and their behavior
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: a certain way. I've always said, like, you're not responsible
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: for that, right, Like you're not responsible for having this
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: this unique way that your body and brain wants to
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: interact with the intoxicating substance and the dependency that quickly
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: can form. Like, there's a lot of factors here. I
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: consider that a disease, But there is a behavioral component
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: to this that you are responsible for. The metaphor I've
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: always liked is a blind person's not responsible for being blind.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: They are responsible for starting the car and trying to drive.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: That's on you, asshole, Like you should have known, right,
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: And if they're like, no, I'm not blind, I'm sure
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: I can do it this time, you're in a bad
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: case of denial here, and all the destruction that you're
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: about to cause in your life and the lives of
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: everybody else on this fucking street, it kind of is
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: your fault. And then whenever you finally crash the car
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: and you've destroyed people's houses and destroy people's lives and
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: your own and you're all sorts of messed up, we
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: drag you out of this burning hunk of metal, and
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: then we're trying to talk to you about it, and
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: you say, guys, guys, guys, I'm not responsible for all
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: the wreckage I've caused. I finally accept that I am blind, yes,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: and no, like, you're not responsible for the fundamental condition
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: that led to this becoming a problem, you do get
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: held responsible for the mess, it'll be your insurance paying
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: for all the damages. Right, you need to get out
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: there and make it right. And it's okay that people
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: are fucking pissed at you, and you're allowed to take
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: ownership over all the damage you have caused, as long
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: as that damage causes the conviction in absolute fucking steel
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: that you never forget again. You have a disease, your
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: eyes do not work. You cannot pretend that that is
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: not true ever again. That to me is the balance
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: between those two things.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: I would agree. I think, you know. The way that
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: I just kind of think about it too, is like
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: like if you're driving, is I guess a good example
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: or similar example, like you're driving a car and you
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: have a medical episode, right, okay, whatever happens, you are
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: legally at fault right right now. That doesn't mean that
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: you intended to have that medical episode anybody, Yeah, it doesn't.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: And it also doesn't mean that you had the intent
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: to do anything wrong. And I think that's one of
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: the things that happens often with addiction, is like the
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: the addicted person really truly believes that they're going to
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: be able to do this and get away with time.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: It's going to work. Yeah, I can. I can do
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: this without my family knowing, and I can do it
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: this one time, and I can maintain my job, and
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: I can do it this one time and no one's
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: going to get hurt. They may not think through it
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: very well exactly. They may they might be wrong, but
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: they do believe that at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, and
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: I think you know, And and that's like, yeah, you
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: are one at fault for that. You are legally at fault.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: You did this, you know, this led to this, which
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: led to this, right, that's there's no real debating that.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: But the big thing is is like how you okay,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: So now you know that, what do you do with it? Right? Right?
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: And do you move on? Can you adjust your life?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Can you make changes to ensure that this doesn't happen again?
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: Can you work on fighting the delusion? Right this idea
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: that no, I can handle this, I can maintain this,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I can still I can still do these things, you know,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: can you still work through that create a functioning life?
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Because again, like so many people try that and they're
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: still they cause more havoc. Yeah, you know, and and uh,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: you know they're still responsible for those choices. But we
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: do also understand that this is yes part of the.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Pre submitting to the truth of this problem, right, which
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: is the thing I think we've always admired about the
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: twelve steps and again twelve steption on magic recipe. They
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: just stumbled upon something that later psychotherapy would solidify and
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: try to push forward, right, But they found it organically,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: and that was the very first part of their program
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: is you've got to surrender to this truth. Your life
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: has become unmanageable. Your will power will never be sufficient
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: to fix this fucking problem. Your eyes don't work, your
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: eyes will never be able to see the road. And
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: if you're going to keep pretending like that shit's not true,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: you're going to keep getting the same results. So the
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: beginning of their program starts with a complete and utter
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: surrender to something you don't want to be true and
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: a recognition that your life is unmanageable and that you
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: are never going to be sufficient to do it right,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: You can't do it, and they defer to the higher power. Thing.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: To me, it's just about a complete surrender that if
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I am one on one with my own brain, I
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: am outnumbered. I will always lose because it is my
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: brain that has the disorder. And that becomes the next
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: part of the program, which is a desire to make
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: it right, a desire to make amends, to apologize the
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: people you've harmed, to make reparations when those are possible.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: When you are wrong from now on, to promptly admit it,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: and to take ownership of what you do. And so
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: this is where there's grace and fault because you're taking
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: ownership and responsibility. But you're not responsible for the original problem.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: We often say, you're not responsible for the disease of addiction.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: You are one hundred percent responsible for your recovery. Somebody's
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: not responsible if they get diagnosed with cancer. They're responsible
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: for doing all the treatment necessary to survive it.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Right, If you pretend like you don't have fucking cancer
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: and you're still doing two packs a day and you
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: do no treatment, you're abdicating your responsibility. Now there is fault, right.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: But if you suddenly develop a problem, a disease like cancer,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: now the difficult and painful treatments that you must undergo
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: to remove this problem from your life, that is your responsibility,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: and it is an endurance challenge, and you're gonna need
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: to submit yourself to support and full recognition and awareness
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: of this truth. You have to accept that right. So
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: that Grace and Fault writer, it's an excellent question because
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: for a lot of people, we also have to be
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: really careful in treatment. And this goes back to the
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: very first thing you had said, Nick, guilt and shame.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Guilt and shame don't build things, and we don't want them.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: We don't want them in rehab. We want conviction, we
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: want certainty, we want respect for the illness. We want
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: people to own their that this is their truth. But
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: whenever they sit there and they dwell on shame and
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: they start spiraling into self hatred, we usually pretty quickly
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: try to take that out of their hands because you
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: can't build anything with that. That shit's a sledgehammer breaks
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: through the wall of denial. But after that we got
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: to set it aside. We got to get a different
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: set of tools.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: And I think you know with that too, is like
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: that guilt in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: you know, like it's an acknowledgment. Yeah, you know it
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: need Yeah, we need to acknowledge that. And then you know,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: because we can make you. We can come up with
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: a million examples of how people throughout history have like
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: because of things that they feel guilty about or behaviors
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: that they did. By taking responsibility, it changed their life
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: and they made change and they made their lives better
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: right through. You know, like having a relationship that completely
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: fell apart and it was very terrible, but from that
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: you learned how to have a good relationship, right, you know,
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: and so now you're better prepared and you've applied that
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: to the next relationship. Or you know, having gotten fired
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: from a job teaches you about how to keep a
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: job right right, and you take that information, you apply it,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: and you make the next job better. It's kind of
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: the same thing. Like it's hard to be able to
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: make significant changes in your life without taking ownership. And
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: part of taking ownership is acknowledging your responsibility. Is acknowledging
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: part of that guilt and being able to deal with
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: that and process it in a healthy way like that,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: So guilty is guilt is not a bad thing. Shame
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: is bad because shame is assigning you as a person
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: and who you are as opposed to guilt is just
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: acknowledgment of the behavior, taking responsibility. There's nothing wrong with that.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Well, a couple of shows ago, we were giving advice
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: about parenting, and you had talked about with the child.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: Be upset at the behavior, only don't don't don't tell
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: the child. They are a type of person.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: You're not a liar, right, you are? Lying? Lying is bad? Yeah,
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: you are behavior. Lying is bad. I don't like that.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: Speeding is bad. You are not a bad driver, Jim,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: as the officer.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: Told me, I don't remember, don't remember that deep in
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: my soul.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: And he just let me know my friends are wrong
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: and I'm a good driver. Okay, that's why he didn't
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: give me a ticket.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: And that's the delusion I was talking about. Okay, that's
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: what I'm talking about.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Hey, look I but this is the point. I accepted responsibility.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: As soon as he walked over. I said, okay, you
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: turns are not allowed here.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Needs to get tickets.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: I do, buddy, I've had them. I think that's all
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: why they don't. And this is because they know they'll work.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: You know again, this is why too, Like sometimes family
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: members of people who are addicted to drugs or alcohol
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: will say, like no, they need to be rested.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, you need to spend some time in jail.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: This is a good thing for them to experience. A
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: lot of family members, you know, when you've kind of
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: gone and got yourself in trouble a few times, at
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: some point they will not bail you out because they
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: want you to experience pain, you know, the dignity of discomfort.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Like it's the only way you're going to learn is
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: if you start to equate this behavior with consequences. But
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: if they reach out and grab the hot iron every
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: time you're reaching to touch it, you'll learn nothing. So yeah, writer,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: we we do want people to experience that as an
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: entry point into conviction, into responsibility, into a desire to
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: have changed, if only to avoid the bad things they felt. Right, So,
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: guilt is a useful thing to stand upon. It can drive.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: There's fault, and I think fault is associated with guilt
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: in this sense, and that we want you to take
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: ownership that you acknowledge. I'm a blind man and I
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: keep trying to drive this damage is my fault, and
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: I need your grace as I a blind man learn
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: how to live in a world where I have to
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: always remember that I have this problem. Yeah, and I
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: have to learn to trust others to guide me instead
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: of trying to rely on myself.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: And I do think too. The last thing I'll touch
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: on is, you know you talk about control. You said,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: if I couldn't have stopped it, then that's horrifying because
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: it means I don't have control. And I agree with that,
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: and I wouldn't say that you couldn't have stopped it,
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: so that should be a relief to you. But the
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: fact that you could have stopped it does not necessarily
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: mean that you have control, right, Okay. Control is a
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: little bit different the way that I like to use this. Again,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: I think we're just on a an analogy train here,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: But if you think of kind of like doctor Jekyl
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: and mister Hyde, right, like, you kind of have two
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: different competing personalities that you're dealing with. And I don't
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: know if you didn't exactly state that addiction was kind
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: of your thing. That was just what we were talking
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: about that made you think of this. But let's just
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: use that as an example since we're here. If let's
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: say I've got Nick and I've got Nick's addiction and
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: a I believe, yeah, and they they share a brain. Right,
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: if you think of the brain as like the control center. Right,
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: as long as Nick is in charge and has is
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: moving the levers and pushing the buttons, I'm gonna be okay, right,
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: as long as I'm in charge, right. If Nick's addiction
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: takes over, right, then that's a problem. You are out
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: of control. I am out of control. And so the
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: idea is is this is where I see so many
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: people fuck up recovery because they think that they can
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: maintain control when their addiction is pulling the levers. Okay,
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: that's not where you need to If you wait until
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: that moment and think that in that moment, then you're
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: going to take control. You've already found up. Yeah, you
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: let then out of the cage. The lion, lion, the tiger.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Tiger did what tiger's to do. It's you know, because
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: I used to hear people say that all the time,
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: and like whenever people were leaving treatment, you know, and
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: they're talking about what they're learning, They're like, you know,
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: if I feel like, uh, if this, you know, uh,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: if I start having cravings or I'm starting to hang
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: out with the dealers and everything, then I'll know I
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: need to ask for help, and I'm like, oh fuck, no,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: you're fucked. You're absolutely That's when you'll know, when you're
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: already hanging out, I'll see you. I'll see a couple
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: of weeks. Yeah, you don't think that. The last sentence
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: you said implies that maybe you have a problem. No,
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: the problem. What you need to do is you need
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: to find safeguards. You need to be able to set
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: up a system in place so that not not you
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: need to try to keep mister Hyde from taking control,
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: but more importantly, you need to understand that you're not
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: going to be able to keep him out of the
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: control respect for the disease exactly. Yes, what you need
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: to do is you need to child proof that. Yes,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: you know, like you need to make sure that if
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: mister grabs the wheel, there's no place he can go once.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: He's got it, You're fucked. Stay Bruce Banners. As soon
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: as you've become Hulk, it's too fucking late. Like, I'll
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: know I need help when I become up. No, but
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: it becomes hulk, we'rel fucked.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: You cannot rely on your addiction to make a good choice.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: It's not gonna walk, it's not gonna happen, so you
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: need to safeguard it and try to keep that from
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: taking over. But then again, more and most importantly is
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: understanding that at some point your addiction is going to
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: be calling the shots. So you need to create an
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: environment that doesn't allow for your addiction to go off
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: the rails. So, for example, I used to have clients
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: that would, you know, alcoholics and be like, how the
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: hell I have to go get groceries. I can't avoid alcohol.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: It's going to be there all the time. So it's like,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: how do I you know, So they'll say they'll say
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: stuff like you know, okay, So my plan is is
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: when I go to get groceries, I'm just not going
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: to go down that aisle, right, And I would say like, okay,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: well that's not going to work because as soon as
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: you walk in that door, your addiction already knows what's
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: going on, always thinking about it. Then it's like, okay,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: well I need to grab milk. Well what's the fastest
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: way to get to the milk? Like through the alcohol?
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Like it, there's always a reason to go down there.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: So you have to understand my addiction is going to
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: take over at some point, So what is a situation
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: that I can create in advance so that when my
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: addiction takes over, it can't leave with the alcohol. Well,
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: I'm going to take somebody with me, right. They don't
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: even need to know why they're there. I'm bringing it
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: just they just need I just need somebody there that
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: if I wanted to do that, I couldn't.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: I'm going to call my sponsor and be on the
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: phone with my sponsor while we're there, so do my
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: idea in the car.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Doing something like that is going to be one way of.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Well, and there's the same with alcohol. The only drink
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: you have control over is the first drink, right, and
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: that this goes with your metaphor perfectly, which, by the way,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: if you ever look into Doctor Jack and mister Hyde,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: it was a tonic that brought mister Hyde and mister
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: it's a great analogy. I'd think that if the book
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: short enough, we should make people read it and rehab
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: because mister Hyde, when he's in that you know Hulk state,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: mister Hyde, he will hide the tonic in places that
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: Doctor Jekyll will just accidentally drink it. He'll just like
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: put it in his fucking coffee, you know, and then
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: just like leave it there, and then you know the
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: next day doctor Jeckel's was wandering around and he's like, oh,
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: I need some coffee, and then he drinks. He's like
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: god damn it and he becomes hide again and like ha,
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: like the bitch was. And this is exactly what you're
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: talking about. Like, we do want you to accept that
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: if mister Hyde gets control, you do not have control.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: So in a sense you are powerless. But you can
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: learn preventative measures to keep him from ever getting in charge, right,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: you can stop him from ever coming out. But this
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: goes back to your point about the person that says
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: if I hang out with drug dealers, all know. It's
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: like the blind guy saying, well, I'll know that I
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be driving if I hear a bunch of honking horns,
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: Like no, no, no, you're still playing. You're notking it seriously. Right,
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: You shouldn't ever hold keys in your hand, You should
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: never be getting into a car. You should always be
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: on a bus like or in an uber. You should never.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: But if you're not taking that seriously, if you're getting close,
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: then yeah, you're eventually gonna lose control again.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: Now I think one of the reasons why people don't
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: necessarily take it seriously is because cravings are intense. And
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: that's one thing I think the average person doesn't understand
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: is it's not like, you know, it's not like how
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: I crave a donut, right, It's more like how I
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: crave water when I haven't drank water in twenty four hours.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: It's it from the brain's perspective, it thinks that this
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: substance is necessary for survival. So it's sending messages that
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: are that intense. And I think that's one of the
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: things that happens with people and why they feel so
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: guilty is they're just like, why can't I figure this out?
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: And it's well, part of it is because the intensity
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: of these messages that are being sent makes it really difficult. Now,
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: that doesn't excuse behavior, right, You're still going to be
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: responsible for the behavior, but we also have to understand that, yeah,
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: it is difficult. So it's not you know, I genuinely
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: think that people who do have substance use problems, they're
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: not when they when they go to court and they
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: tell the judge I'm never going to use again. They
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: believe that. I truly believe most of them really truly
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: believe that they're never going to do it again, you know.
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: But it's one of those things where it's like, holy shit,
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: I need to drink of water. I am so thirsty.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: I need to drink of water. I think I can
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: do this this one last time with no one noticing
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: the excuse for it. I'm the blind guy.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: I just need to drive really quick. It's let's just
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: street down the street. I don't just need a coffee.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: Which apparently Stevie Wonder used to do. Oh yeah, these stories.
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: Apparently there are stories of Stevie Wonder like he would
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: get his driver to pull over like half a block
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: from where he was going. Oh yeah, it had like
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: pull his own car up to get out of the car.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: Oh that's so good. And also Stevie Wonder, I would
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: trust him. I feel like he can do it.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: He can do it. Yeah, the man was amazing.
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's the voice of a generation. Yeah, God's sake,
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: he could drive half a block while being blind.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: Of course, of course, so if you're not him, then yeah,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: take personal accountability.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: Great celebrity to also yeah right, yeah he could do it.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: Where were we at? Oh?
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: Anyway, writer, thank you for this This is a great question.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: I like that we get to get into the weeds
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: on this because I think a lot of people need
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: to wrestle with this. But there's room for this. There's
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: a lane to find where you do take accountability and
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: yet you also respect your illness and your lack of control,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: and that makes you take further accountability to make things
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: right and also to make things preventable in the future.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: We are going to take a quick break and when
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: we come back, we are talking about the psychology of
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: weight loss. Buckle up, boys, we're gonna be hearing from Jim.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: You're listening to pod therapy.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is brought to you by Judy Schneider, Leona,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: Carolyn Albert, Sammy Scoop, Sarah Smith, Mike helm Aarren Cunningham, Cody,
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: the Deloring Guy, Brady and Malaysia and Gabrielle Adam. Would
• 57:23
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• 57:25
  Speaker 2: at dot com splash.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: All right, back to baseball. The count is one to
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: one to ten?
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right? Who uh Jim? All right? Who holds
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: the record for most home runs in a single post season?
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: Oh no, oh fuck? Okay, Barry bonds. There was that
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: other guy Mac mac something.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Bet you it's bonds.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: Give me Barry Bonds for two. No, God damn it.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: Options, you bitch, take it to be the last round.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: I did? Okay, Uh hold on, sorry changing the answer
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: because okay. Uh David Ortiz, Oh that's pretty good. Randy
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: Arose Ana, I think I'm saying that right, Albert Pool, Hose,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Nelson Cruise. Jesus, Bry's not even on there. No, all right,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: give me give me Big Papa. I don't think he
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: ever made it to the post either. Yeah, uh no,
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: it is not Big Pop. Who's Big Papa. We're not
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: going to tell you. God damn it that Big Poppy.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: Give me uh ship give me or tez?
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: It is also not him? Ship?
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Is that also Big Papada?
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: Were the other three options? Randy Arose and a Rosarea
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Arose Arena, Albert Pool, Host, Nelson Cruise, Cruise. No, Pool,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: yos have more points.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: He's dude, Statistically, this is impossible.
• 59:06
  Speaker 7: Three we're taking six guesses a turn. Getting there's only four.
• 59:13
  Speaker 7: Six guesses are the four fucking options? Jacob which picture
• 59:18
  Speaker 7: has the most career strikeouts in MLB history?
• 59:21
  Speaker 5: On h man, it's like Cy Young and people like that.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: But I think that's percentages. Nolan Ryan had a ton
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: of strikeouts. I think Nolan Ryan or Randy Johnson, Yeah,
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: they're up. There was freaking about Greg Maddocks.
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: I was gonna say bad was he got a lot
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: of outs, but he got a lot of like ground
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: ball and pop up outs.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: That's true. He was a he was a he was
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: a tactical picture. Yeah, all right, give me options Roger Clemens,
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddox, all right, set of a.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: Johnson, No, it's Clemens, No, God, damn it. Uh not Maddix.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: The other one, Johnson obviously a red herring. He would
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: not have given that to Nolan Ryant.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: That's that's when we didn't guess yet. Yeah that's the
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: one you want. Yeah, yes, okay, of course, so close
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: to five more points, all right, Jim, Which MLB stadium
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: is the oldest still in use? Shit, you discussed this
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: the other day. Somebody fucking brought this up. No, I
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: don't think so. I talked about the Polo Grounds, which
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: was in New York, but that was oh yeah, okay,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: they tore that down. I'll take options Wrigley Field, Fenway Park,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: Dodger Stadium, Yankee Stadium, give me Dodger Stadium.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: No shit, I think it's Fenway.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Oh good, all right, Last one for this round. Who
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: was the first Jacob who was the first player to
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: reach three thousand hits and five hundred home runs? My options? Geez,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Eddie Murray, Willy maysa is on
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: there twice for some reason.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 8: Take that Willy May's final answer, Yes, very good, wow
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 8: and worth double yeah damn?
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: All right, So you just caught yourself way up my man. Yep,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: I think I've got like four or five point point
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: something like that. Shit went on a rally.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: The psychology of weight loss? Can you all talk about
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: the psychology side of weight loss. I've been trying to
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: lose or manage my weight for my entire adult life.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: It's starting to feel like such a depressing thing that
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: only makes me feel like a failure. I have twenty
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: years of effort and struggle, and to show for it,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: I weigh more than I did when I started. I've
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: hit a point where I feel like I should just
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: give up, because trying and failing every day feels so
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: so bad and it's burning away any sense of self efficacy.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: To be clear, I'm not doing stupid fad diets. I
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: don't hate my current body or anything I'm otherwise mentally
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: doing well. I know what to do, I just don't
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: do it. I know there are a lot of factors
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: that go into something like this, So people have told
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: me to forgive myself for slips. But if a friend
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: broke as many promises to me as I've broken to myself,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't be friends with them anymore. It's my
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: fault that I've ended up here and that I can't
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: seem to fix it, and I don't know how to
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: make peace with so much failure. So what do I do?
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: Just give up on weight loss and make peace with
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: the fact that I failed so many times that I quit,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: or keep trying and failing while my self esteem and
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: self efficacy slowly erode. I don't really understand why I
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: can't seem to just decide what I'm going to eat
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: and then eat it and adhere perfectly the same way
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: I decide not to cheat on my partner and then
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: never do that. Given that you all know the little
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: brain tricks and habit strategies and motivational interview stuff. How
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: do you react to yourself when you knowingly choose food
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: that goes against your diet? Sorry, there are like twenty
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: questions wrapped up in here, but any kind thoughts or
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: any kind of thoughts are appreciated.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: Anonymous, I only have unkind thoughts excluinally.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: One brand of coke in this building. You tease this
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: a little bit, So let's let's hear an update.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, so I well, I probably am going to
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: use this question to like talk about the bigger pictures
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: because I've only ever like talked about it in passing.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: So I've been overweight probably my whole life except being
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: a kid. But like puberty did it all right? Because
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: like you're you're growing so fast that like every time
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: you start to get overweight, you thin back out again. Yeah,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: gets you just keep getting talling exactly, so like at
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: some point you start sorrow. Yeah, and that that shit
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: all caught up to me. And so from like that
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: point on, all right. I looked into my BMI. It
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: turns out I'm too short. Yeah, that's always the bit
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: so for me. In July of twenty twenty four, I
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: got on the scale, and I was real close to
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: the heaviest I've ever been. So I'm six feet tall
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: and I was about two hundred and fifty pounds, and
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: I've probably gotten above that before, but I've never clocked it.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: I've never gotten on the scale and seen the numbers,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: so I don't know that was real to me. So
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: I had two fifty, and you know, really can relate
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: to this letter. Like so many times in my life,
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: I've said, Okay, that's it. I'm going to start doing
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: this the right way. And it's not a lack of knowledge.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Like we all know that two slices of pizza is bad,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: you know, and like you can learn about carbohydrates, and
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: you can learn about proteins, and you can count calories.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: And I have done every single one of those things
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: through out my life, and over and over and over
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: again failed and and like.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: Because you were counting them too late.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it turns out I thought it was you know,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: like it's it's a golf thing. It's like lower is better,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: and I was going the other way. Oh no, I
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: mean you were counting them after you are you ate them?
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 7: Yeah?
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you did that beforehand. That was three?
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, four, five, ten M and MS. So it
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: is really really defeating man. And like I want to
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: be careful not to open up my own like emotional
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: bottle on this because I relate too much to this
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: letter and it is it is tearful. I mean, I
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: can't remember how many times like you're looking in the
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: mirror or you're talking to your doctor. Several years ago,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: I was diagnosed with fatty liver disease, and famously on
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: the show, I announced I haven't been drinking for a while.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: It wasn't something we talked about on the show, but
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: it was something that like would periodically just get mentioned,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: like Jim doesn't drink anymore, and you know, I didn't
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: have an alcohol problem, but my doctor had told me, like, bro,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: you have what was called severe steatosis. And so when
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: you're just FYI for liver disease, thinking people, there's three
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: phases of liver disease. There's steatosis where you just have
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: fat and that comes in mild, moderate, and severe, soys
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: think of one, two, three stage. Then there's the second level,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: which is fibrosis. This is where scarring is starting to
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: appear on your liver. It is in different phases of reversible,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: and that also has mild, moderate, and severe, so levels one, two,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: and three. Then you break into cirhosis. Once you're into sirhrosis,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: it's bad news bears, and there's levels one, two, and
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: three for that. So I was at stage three steatosis
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: in the first phase, the fatty liver part. No scarring yet,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: but at a very severe stage of that, where basically
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: my doctors were like, fibrosis is imminent. Your liver is
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: going to start scarring as it's dealing with this. And
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: of course for me, I'm like, I don't even drink
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: that much. How the fuck is this possible? And then
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: of course they educated me and said, no, homie, you
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: have accumulated enough visceral fat, fat that's sticking to all
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: your organs and especially your liver. Your liver has packed
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: it in there that it's now inhibiting the function of
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: your organs, which was news to me because I really
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: thought fat was just something that goes around you like
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: a bubble shield. I just thought, like, I see it
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: on the outside. It's not on the inside. It is
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: around my waist stomach fat. Yeah, it's different. Fat had
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: no idea about visceral fat and so they're sitting me
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: down and did a lot of good cycle education with
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: me that I needed to help me understand. The reason
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: your liver is being hurt is not because there's fat
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: on your body. It's because there's fat in your body.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: And like, your liver's holding onto this because there's actually
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: something it's supposed to do as a way that it
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: burns the energy when it needs it, but it never
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: gets to burn away the fat because you're constantly giving
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: it a whole new supply of carbohydrates and more calories,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: so it never has to touch this stuff. This is
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: why we get into calorie deficits, so that our body
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: will use more of its calories than it takes in
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: every day. And essentially, your fat is a giant battery system,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: and you just start using your batteries and that's what
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: you need to do in order to release the fat.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: So I relate to this letter because for my entire
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: adult life, I would go through these periods of working
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: on it, trying and for me and I'm about to
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: reveal how I lost all the.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: Weight and I'm still losing weight.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: But it is a very controversial thing, and so I
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: have to be really careful with that.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: Today, off legs.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: I cut off both legs and the fatty liver gon,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: I just cut it out, just get rid of that.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: You don't need a liver. The way it just fell
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: off fell right out of me.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: So today I'm down to one ninety and I want
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: my doctor and I want me to get down into
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: the one seventies. So I'm still chugging along. But I've
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: reached one ninety a long time ago and just kind
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: of have been living in the one nineties all of
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: April and just kind of taking a break and then
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: getting back into my pattern. But the way I did
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: it was with intermittent fasting, and so like, I get it.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: That is a really controversial thing for me. Where my
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: brain clicked was two things. For myself, one realizing that
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: the best diet is the one you can stick to.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: And for me, I fail when my goal is to
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: approach every meal and make a healthier choice on that meal,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: because if I get a salad, I'll cover it in
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: ranch and cheese and all the fun things that I like.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: If I get pizza, I'll eat pizza and then I'll
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: have two slices and I'll want more because there's more
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: slices there, and I'll want some chicken wings and I
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: want some fries. And now I'm in this terrible debate
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: within myself where I'm trying to limit myself. And I
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: discovered that, much like an alcoholic, the only bite I
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: could control was the first bite. Like after I had
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: had one of anything, it was off to the races.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: My brain would say, fuck it, you already had one
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: slice of pizza.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: Have ten.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: And like the other thing I realized is much like
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: an alcoholic, I don't have breaks. Like for me personally,
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: it is just speaking about Jim. I learned about myself
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: and my body and my brain that once I get started,
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: I do not feel full. I do not feel saated.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: I don't know if there's an enzyme that I'm lacking.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know that I will keep
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: going until the pizza box is gone. I've seen people,
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: I see members of my family do this. I remember
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: seeing my son do this and thinking like how the
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: fuck He like ate several bites of a piece of pizza,
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: put it down on the plate and walked away, and
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: I said, oh, Son, you're pizzas here and he said,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: I'm full. And I remember thinking like like an alcoholic
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: can see a guy drink half a beer and then
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: go to throw it away, be like, what are you doing?
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: You know, like or drink half of a whiskey and
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: be like lick the ice cubes, like what are you doing?
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: I realized, like I would eat all my food, I
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: would eat all the food that was left. I would
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: eat the leftovers of everybody else's plates. I never felt sated.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: So for me and my mind body relationship, I realized, Okay,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: I need to just not have anything. I need to
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: have periods of time where it isn't about learning portion control.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: I'm not telling myself I'm only going to have light
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: beer or I'm only going to have half a beer
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: for me, just for Jim. I had to decide I'm
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: just not drinking, right, and that's the equivalent here. I
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: am just not eating during this window of time, and
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: then when that window is complete, I will eat. But
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: I'm just like we used in the last question, I'm
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: gonna set myself up for success. So I'm gonna have
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: already prepped salads and getting into fresh veggies and like
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: looking up really fun meals while I'm fasting. That like
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: I'm fucking starving. I want the stuff so bad, but
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: I'm like looking up things that I want to look
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: forward to eating, and then I'm prepping it, and then
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: whenever I break my fast and during my feeding times,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: I'm eating like mostly keto like carb free things, protein, veggies,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. So over time, that's how I lost
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: that weight. And I tell you that story writer, because
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: not to give you one more fucking suggestion of a
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: way that you could lose weight. And I know it
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: could come off that way, but it's to talk about
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: how many units of suffering I went through fasting, Like
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: I think it was the last question thee before that,
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: which is what triggered this question, because I think we
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: answered a question about weight loss, and we talked about
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: one of the hardest things a human can go through
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: is trying to do that, because there's no fast way
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: to do it. It is a slow and deliberate process
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: of deprivation or calorie deficit or working out. But you
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: got to pick your suffering. You're gonna have to do
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: one right. Either You're gonna get into the gym or
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: swim and burn a fuck ton of calories and not
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: over replenish.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: Them, even if you go to the gym. That's not
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: gonna be the answer. It's not.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: And that's one of the other things I would always
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: beat myself up about for years. It'd be like, Jim,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: why can't you just fucking go work out, buddy, why
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: can't you do it? But the problem is when you
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: get it, you can't. And humans are stupid a fucking efficient,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: Like we're bipedal things. We were designed to run across
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: the serengetti and run animals to death. And then you
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: get on a treadmill and you run for a fuck
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: an hour and then the machine says you've burned five
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: hundred calories, and I'm like, I drank five hundred calories
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: in my gatorade, like while I was here, Like this
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: did jack shit, And so like it really can be
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: discouraging because like even our muscle building and what we
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: can do, when you start really building muscle, the muscle
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: starts eating fat, so you start burning calories when you're
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: not working out, which is a great problem to have
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: when you can do enough work to have built up
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: those muscles.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because muscle is calorically expensive, right, So like if
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: you and I weighed the exact same amount, but I'm
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: muscle and you have mostly burning issue. Yes, yeah, it's
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: it takes more calories.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: For me to maintain it right, which is a good
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: problem to have. But like all of these things are
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: extremely exhausting and like so for me, I had to
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: go to this conversation internally, and this is where I'm
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: going to get to about how to go through this, writer,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: because my fasting experience and my weight loss journey has
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: been the most emotional experience of my life, the most enduring,
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: difficult emotional experience of my life.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: Which says a lot because emotional guy.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: I'm and it is a it is a very difficult thing.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: You start to real just like a drug addict or
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: an alcoholic, you associate food with fucking everything. It's how
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: you celebrate, it's how you grieve, it's how you reward
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: yourself for a hard day's work. It's it's cake with birthdays,
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: it's pizza on Fridays, it's all the things. It's it's
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: everything in your life, and it controls and regulates your emotions.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: And so I had to raw dog fucking life and
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: learn how to deal with my emotions.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: That's that's exactly what that means. Completely unprotected.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: Oh you're right, flapping in the wind twice today, There
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: it is, and so you know when you're Here's how
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: I got through it. So going through these what I
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: measured as subjective units of suffering. So I looked at
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: it and said, I can have Jim's personal suffering experience.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: There's certain amounts of units of suffering when I work out.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: There's certain amounts of suffering when I diet. There's certain
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: amounts of suffering when I fast. I chose fasting for
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: me because for me, that was the better ROI like,
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: the return on investment was better. The amount of units
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: of suck were measured in minutes for me, and so
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: I didn't mind the amount of minutes of suckitude for
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: the payoff of what I was getting in the way
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: that I was also finding a better work life balance
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: with Like, I only have control over that first bite, right,
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: So I had to prevent the first bite, which is very,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: very hard to do because you're literally going through physical
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: cravings because your body rightly expects something. Like it's one
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: thing to say I crave chocolate and then you're not
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: giving yourself chocolate Like that was really hard. It's nothing
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: to say I crave any one calorie, Like your body's like,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: what the fuck are you doing to me? Like this hurts?
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: Make it stop. So it's not for everybody.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: It was very, very physically and emotionally taxing, as was
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: being fat, as still is being fat. I am still
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: twenty pounds worse than where I need to be, and
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: I'm still not where I want to be. And like, yeah,
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: I've dropped all these sizes and stuff and that's cool,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: and like it's easier now. It's easier to fast whenever
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: you're or to work out. I also started working out.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: I was gonna tell you about this.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: I've been going every day two weeks, doing a circuit
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: at Planet Fitness and doing cardio beats a Planet Planet Fatness.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: But like, it's a lot easier to do it now
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: that I've gotten to a place where I have something
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: to protect than when I had something to get right.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: I'd rather be a defending super Bowl champion than the
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: fucking Browns and trying to whip my way from So.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: The other thing, too, is like when you get far
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: enough into this into your weight loss journey, it becomes
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: more rewarding to keep it going, Yes, because it actually
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: gets easier in a sense, like if you think about, okay,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: so you were two fifty, you're now down to whatever,
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: one ninety. Okay, so that's sixty pounds, right, imagine what
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: sixty pounds feels like.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: Right, Oh, go pick it up and then you go hold.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: And so you think about like, Okay, I was doing
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: everything with this weight. Yes, I was sitting on the
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: toilet and standing up with this way.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: I was.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: Doing everything.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: I was doing your mom with this way. Yes, got
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: her great joke. But then like when you drop that,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: then you're like, oh, it's it becomes easier to move around.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: It becomes more rewarding to move around, which means I
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: move I move around more, right, which means I lose.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: A little bit more.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: And like I'm it's paying down a debt, and like
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: in the beginning, you know it sucks a dick because
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: you're like, I have no spending money, I can't enjoy
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: my life, but I'm paying down this debt. You pay
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: down a percentage of your debt, you start to be like, wow,
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: I feel I can breathe. Right, Yeah, so the weight
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: loss is the same thing, and so far right the
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: questions that I've answered that that you asked about are
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: like brain tricks, habit strategies, motivational interviewing. I had to
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: do a lot of self talk to get through this.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: I have a huge journal that I've been keeping since July,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: so now it's been almost a year. It's like eight
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: months in or something. And in like, I had to
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: journal every every single day. I'd weigh in every single day.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: Whenever I felt tempted, I would I would sit there
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: and write about it. I would talk to myself. I
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: would also have to make it. Honestly, the best training
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: I had for this, and I mean this completely seriously.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: All the addictions work that we know. When I started
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: treating this like an addiction, I started having success when
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: I treated it that way. When I didn't trust myself
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: and I had to constantly remind myself, you have a
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: fucking problem. You can't have just one, and so you
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: have to own that all the fucking time. Never forget
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: that you are blind. Do not get behind the wheel
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: of the car. And whenever you're going to you know, refeed,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: you have to do it in this extremely safe, structured place,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: like you have to be very careful. You can't just
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: go do this at a burger joint, because you will
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: shut that shit down even after you fasted, you know,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: like you will shut that shit down. So like I
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: had to use a lot of brain tricks to set
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: myself up not to relapse on my calories, and so
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: I did. It's like we talk about with our patients
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: all the time in addictions work, like they have to
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: have strategy, right, like what's your plan for going in
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: the grocery store? I would need accountability. And I didn't
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: join like overeaters Anonymous, but it does exist, and I
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: did sample some of their literature and borrowed heavily, you know,
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: from a lot of that thinking, but like definitely a
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: lot of writing to myself, coaching myself, making plans of
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: how I was going to handle things. So like if
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: I was being invited to a family barbecue and I
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: knew it was on a non eating day, I would
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: not compromise and I would come up with strategies for
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: how I was going to avoid that, and I'd also
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: get help. And so I had some family members that
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: knew what I was doing and they would support me.
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: And so if anybody was like, oh, why is you know,
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: Jimmy not getting a burger or what's going on man?
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: They would run interference, or they would pull somebody aside
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: and be like, hey, don't don't ask them about that. Man,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: he's going through health thing.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: And why don't you mind your own fucking business. Yeah,
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: don't go fuck yourself.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: So like, but again, I needed that team work. Or
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: there were times that I was feeling really weak and
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: I was like, fuck this, I think I'm gonna go
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: do this thing or make this bad decision, and like
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: I would have basically accountability partner in this case, my spouse,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: who would talk me through it and be like, hey,
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: I'm not to stop you, but like, tell me what
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: you're feeling right now? Why do you want to do that?
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, I just want to enjoy myself. I'm
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: a grown ass man. I want to go to this
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: place and have wings and fries with my buddies and
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: do whatever. It's like, okay, you can. How are you
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: gonna feel afterward? They'll play the tape forward and I
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: would and I'd get to the end of that trick.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: And that's another trick from motivational interviewing writer, playing the
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: tape forward imagining how you're going to feel. One of
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: my best tricks is any time that I thought about eating,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: I would close my eyes and I would imagine eating
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: the entire thing. And then I'd imagine that I sat
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: right back down to where I'm at right now, and
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: I would tell myself that I already ate it, because
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: in my body, I can't feel the difference feeling like
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: before I eat and after I eat, I do not
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: feel physically any different, And so I would just convince
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: myself that I already ate it, and then I would
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: let myself feel the emotions that come with that disappointment,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: starting all over again, start your count over again. Lost
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: track of my pattern? Here we go, lost control. So
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: a lot of the advice we answered with other questions
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: today writer about like respecting that depression is a parasite
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: your brain, respecting that there's an accountability, but there's also
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: a sense of I have to know when I do
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: not have control and keeping myself the fuck out of
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: those situations. That is how I ultimately got success. Those
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: are my brain tricks. Those are the things that helped
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: and understanding the thought and shame and fucking guilt spiral.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: It is the worst, But there's an old saying that
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: like nothing tastes as good as skinny feels. And I
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: would argue that same concept, but a little bit in reverse,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: like there will never like no diet, no amount of fasting,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: no working out, has ever caused me as many subjective
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: units of suffering as the sadness and despair of watching
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: my health suffer and being told by a doctor, you
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: know you have liver disease, like you're you're on a
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: bad track, buddy, you're in danger. Or my doctors do
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: my blood work and tell me I'm in danger or whatever.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: These are the things that or just the shame, the
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: shame of being fat. It is such a fucking emotional experience.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: It is so deep.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: It is who you are, it's what people see, it's
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: your personality. It's the fucking butt of every joke. And
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: oh that was another thing I did that helped me
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: as I joined the reddit thread fasting, and I was
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: just is like a support group and we're constantly posting
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: in there and getting feedback from people and reading other
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: people's stories and you know, reading seeing other people's progress
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: and posting your own progress.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: It was a fucking journey. It still is a journey.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: I'm still on it. So anyway, that's probably the end
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: of my rant.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well I'll jump in here and say that thank
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: you Jim for sharing some most of that may not
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: even help, Yeah, but they're yeh yeah exactly. And and
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: this is the thing, like I definitely agree. The further
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: I get into fitness and understanding this, the more I
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: feel that this is true, that losing weight is probably
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: the single hardest thing a human being ever has to
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: do or program Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly. There's no doesn't
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: want you to do that is to lose weight. Yes, okay,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: so that's point. That's one factor. I think there are
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: multiple factors working against this. Number one just biologically an evolution.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, okay, so evolution, we are not programmed to
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: skip meals. If food is available, you fucking eat it
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: because we don't know when the next one's come and
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: you take it as much as you can, exactly. And
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: so that's the reptilian part of the brain that is
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: always there and it's active. You don't miss this because
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: you don't know when the next one's happening. So that's
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: one thing that makes it difficult. The second thing that
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: makes it difficult is everybody's story. And everything that's driving
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: this behavior is different between individuals, and that's what makes
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: it so frustrating is because honestly, I would, to be
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: honest with you, I think I would rather have a
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: cocaine problem than try to lose weight, because there's what's
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: the problem that the cocaine. What because like the you
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: don't have enough cocaine, don't have enough cocaine? Is that
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: the problem?
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: Light?
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: I got you. The formula actually is a little simpler
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: when we're dealing with that than it is when we're
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: dealing with food.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 3: You know, because you're not going to stop eating, yes, exactly,
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 3: can't take food.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: Out of there. You take cocaine out of the picture
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: if I were you, But but you can. Social acceptability
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: is a lot different. You know, it's Paul's birthday. There's
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: some cocaine in the break room. If anybody wants something, yeah, right,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: you know, like you don't see that. This is something
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: we talk about on the Reddit boards all the time.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: Is just it's you don't realize how many fast food
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: places there are until you try to stop yes, and
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: then you're like fuck, yeah, it's thirty seconds. You can
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: just pull over in a moment of weakness and have
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: a big mac. Yeah. You also don't realize how tied
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: into every component of entertainment food is. Yes, we were
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: just talking about going to a ballgame. Yeah, Like I
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: can't go to a ballgame and not eat something like movies. Movies, Yes,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: celebrations socialize everything. We go to dinners around food.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: If I called gen said you want to hang out,
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: like yeah, sure, do you want to get a meal?
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: Like what are you doing? What do you want to eat?
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: Or what do you want to drink? Like it's it's
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: always there. So that's another component. The other thing, though, too,
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: is like you have to understand emotionally what's driving this,
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: and that even is different from people. For some people
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: it's about a compulsive behavior. For other people it is
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: about dealing with stress. For other people it's something different.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: And this is why you know, the formula is simple,
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: and there's there's it's it's one hundred percent true, which
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: is calories in minus calories outright, that's what it is.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: The math maths, the math maths. The problem is is
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: it's not descriptive. It doesn't explain why. Right, So it's
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: like I've used this analogy before, but it's like saying
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: that we've got a traffic jam because there's more cars
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: in the road than the road can handle. Fact, that
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: is one hundred percent true, there's no getting away from that.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: But it doesn't tell us anything about that, right. Is
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: it just that we have more cars in the road,
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: or is it that there's something down the road that's
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: slowing down traffic? You know, is there an accident? Like,
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: there's a million different things. And this is why I
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: feel you rter because it is very frustrating where you
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: feel like you can try a million different things and
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: you haven't figured that one thing out yet, right Right
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: for Jim, he seems to be onto something. Yeah, okay,
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: that seems to work for Jim. But you take that
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: exact same philosophy and apply to somebody else, it may
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: not mean anything. Fasting. So I'm I'm also in the
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: process of losing some weight. I don't feel like I've
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: got really a lot to lose, but my motivation and
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: my pressure for doing so is mostly vanity hot boy summer.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, No, Honestly, what it is is I'm a
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: personal trainer, right yeah, so there are expectations about what
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: I need to look like, right, you know, and it
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: actually affects business, that's fair, you know, like it's it's
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: it's kind of a business thing, you know. So it's
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: like I kind of have to do this in order
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: to you know, it helps build rapport and trust and
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: sure so. But anyway, there's also other reasons too why
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: I want to do it. But I've tried a lot
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: of those different things too. Fasting I did that for
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: a long time. I had to stop that. Fasting was
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: not working for me because I want to eat in
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: the evenings. I work out in the mornings, and separating
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: those two was just not going to work, I see.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: So I couldn't do it that way, so I'd find
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: some Now what's working for me is really just I've
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: kind of come up with this rule of six hundred
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: by three. Okay, so six hundred calories for breakfast, six
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: hundred for lunch, six hundred for dinner, got it.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: And if you just stay in that one, you just
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: keep it total to focus on that, SI.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's all I gotta do. That's allays going to
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: come in under. Yeah. Yeah, And so that's eighteen hundred
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: calories for the day. Yeah, I can easily way to
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: fall off if I'm doing that right, you know. And
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: and so I've got I know, like, I've got a
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: few things I can pick for breakfast, I got a
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: few things for lunch, I got a few things for dinner.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: And I know that without having to sit there and
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: do the math, I know it's coming in under that, right.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: So it's simple and it works for me. Then it
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: went to New York City and I stopped. I'm not
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: going to do that in New York City, right because
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: I'm there for fun. I'm there for entertainment, you know.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: So I can turn it off and I can turn
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: it back on again when I need to. But that
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: not everybody can do that. Sure, so you kind of
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: have to figure some of these things out. But one
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: a couple of things that I'll kind of throw your
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: way to think about. Number one, going back to the
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: brain chemistry and how you know our brain, that reptilian
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: part of the brain is looking for food. It's not
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: going to turn down a meal. One of the biggest
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: struggles that people have when it comes to caloric restriction
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: is the restraint part and saying no, because when you
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: say no, that triggers that part of the brain. It's
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: almost kind of like a challenge to that part of
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: the brain right where you're saying no, and that brain's like,
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: uh no, you don't fucking understand here. We have to survive,
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: we need this. It sends the message even harder. Yeah, okay,
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: So instead of saying instead of looking at food and
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: saying making it a yes or no choice, making it
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: a now or not now choice, now or later.
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that helped me a lot, was planning what my
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: break breaking of the fast meal was gonna be.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: We call it refeed.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: But like that that was a lot for me because
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: I'd look forward to that and so I wasn't focusing
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: on what I'm not getting. I was focusing on what
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: will come then.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and all you know, for me, it was like
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: you know with pizza. You know, at night, I'm like, oh,
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: I got a craving. I really want pizza. I'm gonna
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: order dominos, I'm gonna order something, I'm gonna have something delivered,
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: And you just get stuck in that hat and that
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: thought of like I'm gonna order pizza. But if I
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: say no, you can't have this pizza, that doesn't make
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: the craving go away, right, That makes the craving for me,
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: it made it more intense, right, Okay, So I learned
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: how to say no, I'll do that tomorrow or i'll
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: do that this weekend later. Yeah. Yeah, And then that helped, right,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: because then it wasn't like, uh, it wasn't.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 5: Was there anything procrastination can't fix honestly exactly.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: Is And like for me, people, places and things avoidance,
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: So like I had rules for myself, like stay the
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: fuck out of the kitchen, Like I just I there's
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: nothing in the kitchen that I fucking need it.
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: Will I have the rest of the house.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: Right, But like a lot of times, you'll you'll find
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: yourself opening up the fridge and just staring at leftover
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: or something like that, and then your brain you're trying
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: to shout to your brain, no, no, no, don't do this,
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: and it's like, dude, you're biologically wired to fucking ravenously
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: attack that food and feed like you can't help it.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: Going out with friends or going to or like to
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: restaurants or whatever, or like to places where food is
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: gonna be served. I would decline a lot and just
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: wouldn't go anymore, you know, And like I just not go.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: And it's because it's like I don't I know that
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: if I am there, I'm gonna feel like I'm missing out,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: and so I would just decline to be a part
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: of it, you know, and like yeah, but that it
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: is a lot like again, this is the maybe one
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: of the harder things a human being ever has to do,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: because and another thing we didn't even talk about is
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: how food has been engineered differently at this day and age.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of interesting like stuff that talks
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: about how calorie rich and carbi dents a lot of
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: foods are, but they're designed to dissolve very quickly. So
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: eat potato chips and it's like it's not satisfying. It
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: doesn't take up real actual volume space in your stomach.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: It dissolves into nothing very very quick and it has
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: a very specific mouth feel that makes you want another one,
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: another one, and another one. They're soft, they don't take
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: lots of chewing to get through anymore. It's just like crunch,
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: crunch gone, crunch crunch gone, and then it dissolves you
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: on another one and they're salty, and then before you
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: know it, you you've killed a bag and you're like, wow,
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: that must have been no calories. I don't feel any
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: of it, and then you look at the fucking bag
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: and you're like, what have I done? You know, and like, yeah,
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: they're designed to get you to consume more of it
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: to buy another bag, which is great capitalism and terrible health.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean so, like there's little tricks and stuff
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: that you can do for stuff like that. Like for
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: me with the like the pop corner chips, I love those. Yeah,
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: they kind of gives me the feeling of a potato chip,
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: but it's mine.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: Whenever I want chips during a refeed, I'll do pork.
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: So what you can do is put it instead of
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: eating it out of the bag, put it in a bowl. Yeah,
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: that way you only have that when the ball's gone,
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: it's done. It's it. You know. The other thing though, too,
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: is like you know, having this thought of like, Okay,
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: I can have some of these things. Like I can
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: go into my kitchen right now. I've got some M
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: and ms because we just went to Easter at Laura's
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 2: mom's house and shows traditional Eminems gives us candy and stuff.
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: So I got like a little thing of M and
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: M's Easter Eminem's. I can go in there and I
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: can eat two or three eminems and then like, I
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: want more, but I put it away and I just
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: tell myself, well, if I want more, I'll just go
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: back and get it.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: I can't do that, Oh kay, Yeah, you put it
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: away and say I'll go back and get it.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just like, but what I'm doing is I'm telling
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: my brain like it's not gone right, I'm not missing anything.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: I'm not missing the opportunity. It's still there.
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: Which is an interference pattern, by the way, Yeah, which
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: is another great move. Like the old story of the
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: guy's trying to quit cigarettes. He puts a cigarettes in
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: his mailbox, Yeah, puts his lighter in his nightstand.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: It's like I can go smoke anytime I want, but
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: I can only have one outside and I have to
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: go fetch all these pieces to do it. Separating yourself
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: from your trigger or whatever is another.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: And then ultimately, you know, what you end up teaching
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: yourself is you like, Okay, I'm gonna go do this,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna get away from this, I'm gonna go do
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: other things when gonna be involved. But also what you're
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 2: really teaching yourself is you're teaching your brain that you
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: have control over these different things. Like you said, you
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 2: can't necessarily control what happens after that first bite, but
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: you do have a sense of control over understanding, like
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: right where do I put myself? Exactly where does that go? No, again,
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: like for people who are eating compulsively, there are things
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: that are going to be helpful, mindfulness eating, things like that.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: But if that's not your problem, you're going to try
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: mindfulness eating and you're not going to have any success.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: You could have. It could be something else. You know.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: That means it's like mindfulness drinking.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I just enjoy the alcohol like I know,
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: I really do, though I would like more of it plays.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: And so I think that's one of the biggest struggles.
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: So please, writer, I think one of the biggest things
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: with this is like, please be patient with yourself. What
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: you're trying to do is incredibly difficult. But remember, you
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: know you've tried one hundred different things they've not worked.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: You don't need to find one hundred different things that do.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: You only need to succeed one time.
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: I've been doing it for twenty thirty years, probably twenty years,
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: trying different things. I finally fel one that worked. Knock
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: on Wood, I'd say, of all the things, and I
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: have lots of hacks and lots of tricks that I've used,
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: and I stole a lot from addiction treatment and applied
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: it here. But I'll say, above all else, the number
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: one most important thing that helped me writer support. So
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: I had the support group of Reddit and support from
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: friends and family that needed to know about it, and
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: that got me through.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: More than the man zer Lots of support from the
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: man Zeer, the man zir or the bro the bro.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: What are we fucking talking about? For men? Oh? Got it,
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: got it, it's Seinfeld.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: Anyway, Writer, I don't get me started on this ship.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: Because I could talk about it a lot. I've been
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: thinking about doing a Patreon series.
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 2: We may have to come back. Yeah, I go through
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: all my.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: Journals and take all my best ideas out.
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: But because I could, I could talk for days on
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: this topic as well. Yeah.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is why we need to do that metabolic program.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you, metabolica psych It's just there's no prescriptions,
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: it's all inside. We just got to unleash it.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: We just need to find a wealthy funder to Jacob front.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: He's got like a whole guest wing of his house.
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: He'll let us use it as a rehab sometimes.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: Sure, oh yeah, for sure. A friend. Yeah, what could
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: go wrong?
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, bring a bunch of junkies to his drug house. Yeah,
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: there's no way this goes wrong anyway. We are going
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: to take much break house is a drug house, you
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: have drugs.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: It is a house. I suppose you're right, got awful quiet.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: When we come back, we're wrapping up the show. You're
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• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: Get a thank you out there yet. What you want
• 1:37:15
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• 1:37:17
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• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: in that studio. Yeah, because otherwise you just get missed.
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Therapods, Foxy Sally and Johnny. Yeah, I
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: was gonna you and yeah, I was waiting for the
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: applause for Foxy Sally. There it is, and we're very sorry.
• 1:37:38
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• 1:37:41
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• 1:37:45
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• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the show.
• 1:37:49
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• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: That's all the time we got for this week's session.
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: Want to thank our missing host Whitney wherever she is
• 1:39:04
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• 1:39:07
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• 1:39:08
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• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: Thanks and we'll see you for appointment next week.
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: Found all right, Jacob, you uh, you definitely won trivia.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: We don't know. Well, we are very bad. Yeah, I
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: believe I won trivia. Thank you, Yes, that's true. Goodbye everybody,