Latest / Overwhelmed Working Woman: Boost Productivity, Master Time Management, Overcome Overwhelm & Stop People Pleasing / #281| The Overwhelming Emotional Labor That's Making You Consider Divorce — And The Question That Finally Tells You If It's Over
Transcript
- 0:00Michelle Gauthier: When you listen today, you will learn about overlooked emotional labor that is making a lot of women consider divorce.
- 0:07Michelle Gauthier: You're listening to Overwhelmed Working Woman, the podcast that helps you be more calm and more productive by doing less.
- 0:18Michelle Gauthier: I'm your host, Michelle Gauthier, a former Overwhelmed Working Woman and current life coach.
- 0:23Michelle Gauthier: On this show, we unpack the stress and pressure that today's working woman experiences.
- 0:28Michelle Gauthier: And in each episode, you'll get a strategy to bring more calm, ease, and relaxation to your life.
- 0:35Michelle Gauthier: Hey friend, thanks for joining today.
- 0:40Michelle Gauthier: I don't know if you're finding this, but I'm noticing during this busy season of back to school and getting everything reorganized that it seems to put a spotlight on everything in life that's already stretched thin.
- 0:52Michelle Gauthier: And for a lot of women, a lot of you listeners out there, that includes marriage.
- 0:56Michelle Gauthier: So today I've got a guest that I've been wanting to talk to for a while.
- 0:59Michelle Gauthier: Her name's Oona Metz.
- 1:01Michelle Gauthier: Oona is a therapist.
- 1:03Michelle Gauthier: She specializes in divorce and even wrote a book called Unhitched, The Essential Divorce Guide for Women.
- 1:08Michelle Gauthier: When you listen to today's episode, you'll learn why 70% of divorces are initiated by women and what's actually driving that number, the habits of couples who do make it, and how to know if you should keep trying or if it's time to let go.
- 1:23Michelle Gauthier: That is the ultimate question.
- 1:25Michelle Gauthier: So even if you're happily married or you're quietly struggling or somewhere in the middle of figuring this all out, this conversation has something for you.
- 1:33Michelle Gauthier: Let's jump into our conversation with Oona.
- 1:36Michelle Gauthier: Thank you so much for being here with us today.
- 1:38Michelle Gauthier: Tell us a little bit about how you got into this line of work.
- 1:41Oona Metz: Absolutely.
- 1:42Oona Metz: And thank you so much for having me on the show today.
- 1:44Oona Metz: I've really been looking forward to our conversation.
- 1:47Oona Metz: So I'm a therapist and I've been a therapist for about 30 years.
- 1:51Oona Metz: And 15 years ago, I started running divorce support groups for women in my practice.
- 1:59Oona Metz: And so for the past 15 years, I have these three separate weekly divorce groups, and I've seen so many women through the process of divorce and finally decided with all that knowledge kind of banging around in my head, I better write a book about it.
- 2:16Michelle Gauthier: Oona's book is called Unhitched, The Essential Divorce Guide for Women.
- 2:19Michelle Gauthier: And I wish I had this when I was getting divorced.
- 2:22Michelle Gauthier: And I did attempt to go to the support group and it had some good things, but it wasn't the best.
- 2:27Michelle Gauthier: So I just wish I would have had your resources, period.
- 2:30Michelle Gauthier: But what I tend to find in, and I don't know about all of our listeners here, but in the clients who I have had over the past eight or so years, they're coming to me because they're feeling really overwhelmed.
- 2:39Michelle Gauthier: And of course, there are lots of things that contribute to that.
- 2:41Michelle Gauthier: But more times than not, I would say 80% of the time, their relationship with their spouse or partner is one of the things on the list that is causing overwhelm.
- 2:50Michelle Gauthier: So I'm not saying that I'm working exclusively with divorced people, but I feel like the primary relationship in their life is often one of the big causes of overwhelm.
- 3:01Michelle Gauthier: So can you just tell us a little bit about what you're seeing in the trends, so to speak, of divorce these days?
- 3:08Michelle Gauthier: Who's getting divorced?
- 3:09Michelle Gauthier: Why is it happening?
- 3:10Oona Metz: One of the statistics that some people find surprising is that in straight marriages, when people are getting divorced, 70% of those divorces are initiated by women.
- 3:22Oona Metz: And I think there are a lot of reasons behind that.
- 3:25Oona Metz: We used to say in the old days that the primary causes of divorce were the three A's.
- 3:30Oona Metz: It was addiction, abuse, and affairs.
- 3:33Oona Metz: That's still true, that there are a lot of addiction, abuse, and affairs that lead to divorce.
- 3:39Oona Metz: But I think that there are other factors as well.
- 3:42Oona Metz: And one of the things that I hear so much about is unequal parenting time or unequal, inequitable emotional labor that happens in the home or household labor.
- 3:56Oona Metz: There's a recent study out there that says that when a man and woman get married, the woman's housework goes up by seven hours a week and men's goes down by one hour a week.
- 4:07Oona Metz: If that's not a sure way to feel overwhelmed.
- 4:10Michelle Gauthier: And that's audio only, so they didn't just see my face be like, what?
- 4:15Michelle Gauthier: Oh my gosh.
- 4:16Oona Metz: And that's before the children are born.
- 4:18Oona Metz: Yeah.
- 4:19Oona Metz: One of the breaking points I hear about all the time is when the children are born.
- 4:24Oona Metz: That is a particular point of conflict in the marriage.
- 4:28Oona Metz: Even if people don't get divorced for another 10 or 20 years, oftentimes when I'm meeting with them for the first time and we're going over the arc of their marriage, they talk about the birth of their children as being a time where things really shifted into an unhealthy dynamic where suddenly they were the default everything, the default parent, the default cleaner, the default shopper, the default social calendar, and the ways in which that weighed so heavily.
- 4:56Oona Metz: And then over time, that really erodes the goodwill that marriages are built upon.
- 5:03Michelle Gauthier: Okay, so I want to ask you some more questions about how we can prevent getting ourselves in that situation, but I don't want to ask those yet.
- 5:11Michelle Gauthier: I want to pause and hold those because I have some more questions about why are 70% of the divorces being filed by or requested by women?
- 5:20Michelle Gauthier: What's going on there?
- 5:21Oona Metz: There's a Harvard study that shows marriage works really well for men.
- 5:25Oona Metz: Marriage really improves men's financial health, their physical health, and their mental health.
- 5:31Oona Metz: I think men are still in this society not socialized to have important emotional connections with other men.
- 5:40Oona Metz: So oftentimes their emotional connection is with their wife only or primarily.
- 5:45Oona Metz: Whereas if you ask a woman who her best friend is, it's possible she might say my husband, but she's also going to say, and my friend Sarah, and my friend Sally and my friend Kristen are my best friends.
- 5:56Oona Metz: So men rely on women to be their emotional connection.
- 6:00Oona Metz: And then they're relying on them for that immediate seven hours a week extra housework before they even have kids.
- 6:07Oona Metz: So it can be a really good deal for them.
- 6:10Oona Metz: Whereas for women, they oftentimes get a lot busier.
- 6:13Oona Metz: And I hear from a lot of women that they feel like there's an emotional connection that's lacking in their marriage.
- 6:19Oona Metz: Yes.
- 6:20Oona Metz: And that makes it hard when that's combined with all the extra work.
- 6:24Michelle Gauthier: And I can say for myself, several good friends of mine, clients of mine who have gotten divorced, that they end up doing the filing and saying, I want a divorce because their husband just isn't going to do it, even though he's behaving potentially in such a way that shows that he's not really into it anymore.
- 6:43Michelle Gauthier: It seems to be more often than not in the cases that I know that the wife is the one who files.
- 6:48Michelle Gauthier: And to that I say, Of course, one more thing for us to add to our to-do list to have to actually be the one to go forward and file for the divorce.
- 6:58Oona Metz: I talk a lot about the difference between who's left the marriage and who's ending the marriage.
- 7:03Oona Metz: And I find that all the time too in the women I work with.
- 7:06Oona Metz: Oftentimes their husband has left in some way, like he's left through infidelity or through financial infidelity or through addiction or just not upholding the spoken and unspoken vows of the marriage.
- 7:21Oona Metz: He may have left through just being incredibly passive.
- 7:25Oona Metz: And yet she bears the brunt of ending the marriage because he won't go file anything, right?
- 7:31Oona Metz: He's not going to go to the lawyer, he's not going to fill out the paperwork.
- 7:34Oona Metz: So she has to do that work as well.
- 7:37Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
- 7:37Michelle Gauthier: Do you think it's fair to say that it's easier for men to stay married and it's easier for us to not, like in the long term?
- 7:46Oona Metz: I think it depends on the marriage.
- 7:47Oona Metz: Oftentimes I do see men staying in an unhealthy marriage, whereas women are like, get me out of here, right?
- 7:54Oona Metz: And I think oftentimes when women leave, they are fearful about leaving.
- 8:00Oona Metz: And when they leave, find that they're doing better on the other side.
- 8:04Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
- 8:04Michelle Gauthier: One of the other things I saw that you wrote or said is that there's not like an easy divorce, but that it can be really great on the other side.
- 8:14Oona Metz: That's right.
- 8:15Oona Metz: I think divorce is always heartbreaking and stressful and can be chaotic.
- 8:21Oona Metz: Nobody wants to go through it.
- 8:22Oona Metz: It's not a goal anybody has.
- 8:24Oona Metz: Right.
- 8:25Oona Metz: And yet many people actually end up going through it and they do end up feeling much better on the other side.
- 8:31Oona Metz: And it's hard to know that when you're in the beginning stages.
- 8:35Michelle Gauthier: So when I'm working with people who are feeling unhappy in their partnership, their question always is how do I know if I should get divorced or if I should stay?
- 8:46Michelle Gauthier: So what's your take on that?
- 8:48Oona Metz: I wish there was an easy answer.
- 8:50Oona Metz: Right.
- 8:51Michelle Gauthier: Take this quiz and it will tell you.
- 8:52Michelle Gauthier: Right.
- 8:53Oona Metz: It's it's complicated, right?
- 8:55Oona Metz: And it's individual for each and every person.
- 8:58Oona Metz: One thing that I would say is it's not a good sign about your marriage if you're trying to decide if you should get divorced.
- 9:05Oona Metz: Another thing I'll say is do you have an agreement on what the issues are?
- 9:10Oona Metz: Because if you are in agreement, our issue is we're not good communicators and we really need to work on communicating better, then that's pretty hopeful.
- 9:20Oona Metz: If you don't have agreement on even what the problem is in the first place, it's going to be very hard to make that problem better.
- 9:29Oona Metz: One thing that's really important is having some agreement.
- 9:33Oona Metz: And then also having motivation.
- 9:34Oona Metz: Do you both have motivation to fix it or not?
- 9:37Oona Metz: I think one of the most dangerous times in a marriage is when people are angry at each other or they're in conflict, but they stop fighting and they just decide it's not worth it anymore to fight.
- 9:49Oona Metz: And if it's not even worth it to have the argument or a discussion, if it's not even worth it to bring up the things that are upsetting you, that's a red flag.
- 9:59Oona Metz: Because those things are not going to go away, they're just going to build up more and more.
- 10:04Oona Metz: Sleep them under the rug.
- 10:06Oona Metz: The rug is going to get taller and taller.
- 10:07Oona Metz: Yeah.
- 10:08Oona Metz: So you can't see each other.
- 10:09Oona Metz: You know.
- 10:10Oona Metz: Yes.
- 10:10Michelle Gauthier: And when you really start thinking about, oh my gosh, this could go on for 30 more years.
- 10:15Michelle Gauthier: You and I were talking at the beginning before we started recording about the number of gray divorces.
- 10:20Michelle Gauthier: Why do you think that's happening too?
- 10:22Michelle Gauthier: That people are getting divorced even later in life.
- 10:25Oona Metz: Yeah, the rate of divorce for people over 50 has doubled in the last few decades.
- 10:31Oona Metz: And the rate for people over 65 has tripled.
- 10:34Oona Metz: And I'm seeing a lot of women in their 60s in my practice right now.
- 10:38Oona Metz: And I do think one piece of it is that people are living longer.
- 10:42Oona Metz: And if you got to 60 many years ago, you got to 60 and you've been married for 35 years, you might think, I'm 60, I'll stick it out.
- 10:50Oona Metz: I don't have much time left.
- 10:51Oona Metz: But now people get to 60 and they're like, oh my God, I could have 25 more good years.
- 10:57Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
- 10:57Oona Metz: I don't know that I want to be with this person for another 25 years.
- 11:02Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
- 11:03Oona Metz: So I think people are really looking towards what's my next chapter?
- 11:06Oona Metz: What do I want my next chapter to be?
- 11:08Oona Metz: And who do I want the characters in my next chapter to be?
- 11:12Michelle Gauthier: Yes, yes.
- 11:13Michelle Gauthier: If you find yourself envisioning a really cute little apartment that's just yourself, right?
- 11:18Michelle Gauthier: Yeah, you should maybe start thinking about that.
- 11:21Michelle Gauthier: It seems like most of us, I'm trying to think if I can even think of an exception.
- 11:26Michelle Gauthier: It seems like almost everyone wants to know that they put in the effort and that they tried to save their marriage.
- 11:33Michelle Gauthier: And then at some point it became clear to them that it was either a yes or a no.
- 11:39Michelle Gauthier: I don't want to get divorced or I do want to get divorced.
- 11:42Michelle Gauthier: And of course, at the beginning, people always want to know, how am I going to know?
- 11:46Michelle Gauthier: And I feel like the answer is, I don't know, but you will.
- 11:51Oona Metz: How do you feel about that?
- 11:52Oona Metz: That's right.
- 11:53Oona Metz: No, I think that's right.
- 11:54Oona Metz: And I do agree with you that's really important to try everything you can to make your marriage better.
- 12:00Oona Metz: And sometimes I'll meet with women and they'll say, I have a terrible marriage.
- 12:03Oona Metz: And I'll say, So have you guys talked about that?
- 12:06Oona Metz: And she'll say, No, not really.
- 12:07Oona Metz: And I say, Unless there's abuse, unless she's in danger, she's going to talk about it.
- 12:12Oona Metz: You gotta talk about it.
- 12:14Michelle Gauthier: Yep.
- 12:14Oona Metz: Um try as hard as you can to save your marriage because one of two things will happen.
- 12:20Oona Metz: Either your marriage will improve and you'll feel satisfied to be in it, or you'll feel like you've done everything you can.
- 12:27Oona Metz: And that will help you to have less regrets if you do initiate a divorce.
- 12:32Oona Metz: Yes.
- 12:32Oona Metz: And you feel like I know I tried everything I possibly could.
- 12:35Oona Metz: Yes.
- 12:36Oona Metz: Right.
- 12:36Oona Metz: Rather than leaving and wondering, maybe if we had gone to that couple's counselor, maybe things would be better.
- 12:43Michelle Gauthier: Yep.
- 12:43Michelle Gauthier: And I think too that trying as hard as you possibly can does not mean give it 10 more years necessarily.
- 12:50Michelle Gauthier: You might have been trying as hard as you could for the past five years, but you just weren't giving yourself credit for that.
- 12:56Michelle Gauthier: That's right.
- 12:57Oona Metz: And it doesn't mean trying as hard as you can if there's abuse.
- 13:00Oona Metz: Because if there's abuse, that's not a relationship issue, that's a power dynamic.
- 13:05Oona Metz: And you just have to leave if there's abuse.
- 13:07Michelle Gauthier: Okay.
- 13:07Michelle Gauthier: That's a good differentiation.
- 13:09Michelle Gauthier: Thank you for saying that.
- 13:11Michelle Gauthier: Okay.
- 13:11Michelle Gauthier: So if somebody listening maybe been thinking about it, or maybe they've just had their first baby and they're starting to feel that stress with their spouse.
- 13:20Michelle Gauthier: What are some of the things that you think women can do to try to prevent as much as possible divorce?
- 13:26Michelle Gauthier: What are the great habits couples having who do make it?
- 13:30Oona Metz: Definitely one of them is making sure that the work is shared in the house.
- 13:35Oona Metz: And it doesn't mean that it's equal necessarily.
- 13:38Oona Metz: It doesn't mean I'm going to cook half the meals and you're going to cook half the meals and then I'll wash the plates while you wash the cups.
- 13:44Oona Metz: Um, it doesn't mean that, but it does mean that it's equitable and that people are feeling like the shared load is equitable.
- 13:52Oona Metz: And then I also think very regular check-ins about how we're doing.
- 13:57Oona Metz: I would really advocate for a weekly check-in where people say, How is our week going?
- 14:03Oona Metz: And how's the workload feeling?
- 14:06Oona Metz: And what's coming up next week?
- 14:07Oona Metz: How can we plan for this?
- 14:09Oona Metz: And how are we doing as a couple?
- 14:11Michelle Gauthier: I feel like that last one, because I feel like a lot of couples will talk about the logistics, who's taking who to practice, what night are you cooking dinner, and that feels like safe.
- 14:22Michelle Gauthier: But that vulnerable, how are we doing in our relationship?
- 14:26Michelle Gauthier: That's such a great point.
- 14:28Oona Metz: And the more you can schedule that in and have that be a weekly part of your relationship, that will help a lot.
- 14:35Oona Metz: I also think people, when they have kids, become so kid-centric.
- 14:40Oona Metz: We're in a culture right now where there's so much energy spent on the kids.
- 14:45Oona Metz: And I was a kid in the 70s where parents didn't spend really too much attention at all on their kids.
- 14:52Michelle Gauthier: Come back when it's dark outside.
- 14:54Oona Metz: Yeah, we were free-range kids.
- 14:55Oona Metz: So the pendulum has really swung in the other direction, and there's a lot of good things about that.
- 15:00Oona Metz: But one of the things that really suffers is the relationship between the parents.
- 15:04Oona Metz: And I've talked to parents, I say, have a date night once a week.
- 15:07Oona Metz: Oh God, we could never do that.
- 15:09Oona Metz: We've got baseball practice on Tuesday and Thursday.
- 15:12Oona Metz: We've got violin lessons on Wednesdays.
- 15:14Oona Metz: We've I think you have to make it a priority.
- 15:17Oona Metz: It's like the kids are a priority.
- 15:19Oona Metz: I think the relationship has to be a priority.
- 15:21Michelle Gauthier: Yep.
- 15:22Michelle Gauthier: Yep.
- 15:22Michelle Gauthier: And I think in terms of what's fair and equitable, a lot of times the woman's like, but I don't want to make that another thing that I have to do is to set up this time for quality time with my spouse.
- 15:32Michelle Gauthier: So it's just one more thing to do.
- 15:34Michelle Gauthier: So if you can do those weekly check-ins, even as like a walk or just sitting down for coffee for 15 minutes or something, I think that's great advice.
- 15:44Michelle Gauthier: Okay, so if we do have somebody listening who is actually going through divorce, has recently gotten divorced, their best friend is getting divorced, let's recommend that they buy your book and tell them how the book will help them.
- 15:59Oona Metz: The book, again, it's called Unhitched, The Essential Divorce Guide for Women, and it's available in paperback and ebook and audio.
- 16:07Oona Metz: And the book is almost like having a therapist and a support group in your back pocket.
- 16:15Oona Metz: It's got a ton of practical advice in it, and it begins at the very beginning of divorce when you're making the decision or when the decision is made for you throughout the whole middle part where you're figuring out how to tell people and you're telling your kids and you're supporting your kids through creating new boundaries and then even to the point of dating after divorce and creating a new identity.
- 16:39Oona Metz: It's got a lot of vignettes because I find that women who are getting divorced often feel isolated.
- 16:44Oona Metz: So I have a lot of vignettes of other people who've gone through it and stories so that you can relate, and then a lot of exercises so that you're not just passively reading, but you're also working on yourself.
- 16:56Oona Metz: There's a lot of checklists in there and little quizzes and then little journal prompts and things like that so that you can also learn about yourself during the process.
- 17:06Michelle Gauthier: Which is a really interesting part of getting divorced.
- 17:08Michelle Gauthier: To say I get to start over, and do I want to carry with me all of the things that I have been, or do I want to change some things about myself?
- 17:18Michelle Gauthier: That's gonna be my new go-to gift for anyone who tells me that they're getting a divorce.
- 17:22Michelle Gauthier: Because I feel like we need ideally, you would have a therapist, a coach, a support group, your best friend, whatever.
- 17:29Michelle Gauthier: But if you could have this book that you could work on at 2 a.m.
- 17:33Michelle Gauthier: when you can't sleep, maybe that would be very convenient.
- 17:36Michelle Gauthier: So I love that.
- 17:37Michelle Gauthier: Yes, yeah.
- 17:38Michelle Gauthier: I just have two more questions to ask you, and they're unrelated to your area of expertise.
- 17:43Michelle Gauthier: This is just something that I ask everybody who comes on the podcast.
- 17:46Michelle Gauthier: So the first one is what is a rule that you've made for yourself that you very rarely break.
- 17:52Oona Metz: Oh, uh, I know because I did it today.
- 17:54Oona Metz: A rule I make for myself is that I go to yoga twice a week at the exact same time, the same class.
- 18:01Oona Metz: I will not schedule anything else in except for that at those two times.
- 18:06Michelle Gauthier: That's perfect because if it's the first thing on your calendar, then you can't have clients at that time or interviews at that time.
- 18:12Michelle Gauthier: Yeah.
- 18:12Michelle Gauthier: And what does that buy you when you consistently do that yoga?
- 18:16Michelle Gauthier: How does that help?
- 18:17Oona Metz: Well, as a therapist, I'm sitting for my job, which is we know that sitting all the time is not good for your body, but I'm also absorbing a lot of emotional energy all day long.
- 18:29Oona Metz: And so I think yoga is one really important way to work through that emotional energy and just release it from my body so that my body is not holding on to it.
- 18:40Michelle Gauthier: So that you can be ready to sit and listen.
- 18:43Michelle Gauthier: I know it is funny how listening so intensely all the time is tense or something.
- 18:49Michelle Gauthier: I don't know.
- 18:50Michelle Gauthier: There's a certain feeling I get after a whole day that's oh my gosh, you're just so dialed in.
- 18:55Michelle Gauthier: Right.
- 18:55Michelle Gauthier: For sure.
- 18:56Michelle Gauthier: Yes.
- 18:57Michelle Gauthier: Okay.
- 18:57Michelle Gauthier: And then the second question is what is something that you just love right now?
- 19:01Michelle Gauthier: Unrelated to work, but what's something you're just into?
- 19:04Oona Metz: You know what I'm really into?
- 19:05Oona Metz: At home, we've been playing the sounds of loons at night.
- 19:09Oona Metz: There's a little bit of crinkling water sounds like a little stream and then little.
- 19:14Oona Metz: It's really relaxing.
- 19:17Oona Metz: It's great.
- 19:18Michelle Gauthier: I love it.
- 19:18Michelle Gauthier: Oh my gosh.
- 19:19Michelle Gauthier: I'm originally from Minnesota, so that's the state bird.
- 19:22Michelle Gauthier: So we I love the loon sounds.
- 19:24Michelle Gauthier: That's very relaxing to me.
- 19:25Michelle Gauthier: Okay, that's really relaxing.
- 19:27Michelle Gauthier: That's a good tip.
- 19:28Michelle Gauthier: I love it.
- 19:29Michelle Gauthier: And where can people find you if they want to know more about you?
- 19:32Michelle Gauthier: And where can they buy your book?
- 19:34Oona Metz: Oh, thanks for asking.
- 19:36Oona Metz: So I have a website, it's oonametz.com.
- 19:39Oona Metz: That's o-o-n-a-m-e-t-z.com.
- 19:43Oona Metz: And I have a ton of free resources on my website about divorce, but also about all kinds of other things.
- 19:50Oona Metz: And my book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and lots of independent bookstores as well.
- 19:56Oona Metz: And as I mentioned, it comes in paperback and ebook and audio as well.
- 20:02Michelle Gauthier: Okay.
- 20:02Michelle Gauthier: Anything else I didn't ask you that you want to be sure to say?
- 20:06Oona Metz: Just if there's any listeners who are going through divorce who are out there today, I just want to say please don't go it alone.
- 20:14Oona Metz: It's really important to get support and to know that you have a supportive team around you, whether that's friends or family or therapist.
- 20:23Oona Metz: But please don't try to do it by yourself because you need the support.
- 20:28Michelle Gauthier: For sure.
- 20:28Michelle Gauthier: Okay, great.
- 20:29Michelle Gauthier: Thank you so much.
- 20:30Michelle Gauthier: Thank you.
- 20:31Michelle Gauthier: Thank you for listening to the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast.
- 20:38Michelle Gauthier: If you want to learn more about my work, head over to my website at MichelleGauthier.com.
- 20:44Michelle Gauthier: See you next week.