Latest / The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson / Lindsey Graham Guest-Hosts Verdict Flashback

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Lindsey Graham Guest-Hosts Verdict Flashback · The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to a very special episode of Verdict to his
0:05
Speaker 1: Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you, and as we promise, Senator,
0:09
Speaker 1: as we talked about your dear friend Lindsey Graham and
0:12
Speaker 1: his passing, we said we were going to put out
0:14
Speaker 1: that original episode with the Senator that he was the
0:17
Speaker 1: very very first guest of Verdict, and that is going
0:20
Speaker 1: to be this show.
0:22
Speaker 2: Well, Lindsey Graham. The Senate lost Lindsey this weekend. The
0:27
Speaker 2: world lost Lindsay this weekend. He was one of a kind.
0:30
Speaker 2: He had an extraordinary life and legacy serving our nation.
0:33
Speaker 2: Twenty three years in the Senate, thirty three years in
0:36
Speaker 2: the Air Force. He made a profound difference. And he
0:40
Speaker 2: was also he was the very first guest on Verdict
0:45
Speaker 2: right when this show launched, and he came in and
0:47
Speaker 2: joined us right when the show was started. It started
0:51
Speaker 2: on the first day of the very first Trump impeachment.
0:54
Speaker 2: This episode is in the middle of the impeachment and
0:56
Speaker 2: Lindsey came from the Senate floor leave about midnight to
1:01
Speaker 2: go to the studio to record. It was a classic
1:05
Speaker 2: and priceless episode. In fact, he starts off by saying,
1:10
Speaker 2: what is a podcast and we actually talked for years
1:16
Speaker 2: about selling t shirts. Verdict with Ted Cruz and on
1:19
Speaker 2: the back, what is a podcast? Lindsey Graham? It was.
1:26
Speaker 2: He was one of a kind. I am grieving and
1:29
Speaker 2: miss my friend. Every member of the Senate missus Lindsey Graham,
1:33
Speaker 2: and give a listen to this podcast, watch this podcast
1:37
Speaker 2: to remember why he was such an extraordinary senator and
1:42
Speaker 2: such an extraordinary human being.
1:45
Speaker 3: Hello, I'm Senator Lindsey Graham. Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruz,
1:48
Speaker 3: the number one podcast in the entire country. What is
1:52
Speaker 3: a podcast?
1:54
Speaker 4: Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz. I'm Michael Knowles.
1:57
Speaker 4: I'm joined by not one, but two usc to help
2:01
Speaker 4: us break down the most shocking day of the entire
2:04
Speaker 4: impeachment trial. Senator Graham, thank you so much for being
2:07
Speaker 4: here at vire. Gentlemen. The last time that we sat down,
2:11
Speaker 4: I was told this impeachment was going to drag on
2:13
Speaker 4: for weeks. We were going to get witnesses, we were
2:15
Speaker 4: going to get Bolton, we were going to get Hunter Biden.
2:17
Speaker 4: This was going to get long and ugly. I go
2:19
Speaker 4: to sleep, I wake up today and the Senators are
2:23
Speaker 4: voting no more witnesses. This thing could be over next week.
2:26
Speaker 4: Senator Cruz, what happened, Well, today was a big day.
2:29
Speaker 2: And let me say, Lindsey, thank you well you I
2:31
Speaker 2: appreciate your coming. This is late at night. We spent
2:34
Speaker 2: all day in the setting.
2:35
Speaker 3: A lot of money on production.
2:37
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Well, this was you're right yesterday. If the
2:43
Speaker 2: vote had gone differently today, this trial could have gone
2:45
Speaker 2: on for months. We could have seen it drag on
2:48
Speaker 2: and on and on. And it was a big deal.
2:50
Speaker 2: It was up in the air, and today was the
2:52
Speaker 2: most important vote we've had in the entire trial. It
2:57
Speaker 2: really came down to we knew we had forty seven
3:00
Speaker 2: Democrats that wanted more witnesses. Why because they hadn't proved
3:04
Speaker 2: in the case. They're losing, and so the only hope
3:07
Speaker 2: they have is extended going a fishing expedition and see
3:10
Speaker 2: if they can find something. The big open question was
3:13
Speaker 2: were four Republicans going to join them? We knew that
3:15
Speaker 2: two Republicans were, they'd announced it already. Mitt Romy and
3:18
Speaker 2: Susan Collins were voting with them. There were two other
3:21
Speaker 2: senators who were in play, Lamar Alexander Lisa Murkowski, and
3:26
Speaker 2: it was close last night Lamar announced that he was
3:29
Speaker 2: going to come out and say enough is enough. And
3:31
Speaker 2: we just found got a final decision from Lisa today
3:34
Speaker 2: just a few minutes before she voted absolutely So I.
3:37
Speaker 4: Saw the update on my phone when Senator Murkowski finally
3:40
Speaker 4: decided she was going to vote no more witnesses.
3:43
Speaker 3: How does that work?
3:45
Speaker 4: Well, that's what I was going to ask you, because
3:48
Speaker 4: it's Michael. You've ever seen his phone?
3:49
Speaker 3: Here? You get hang in there, that's worth it, worth
3:52
Speaker 3: the wait. The Russians can't get in this. You'll all
4:00
Speaker 3: have one in a five year.
4:01
Speaker 4: Senator Green, you are clearly a fiscal conservatives. We were
4:04
Speaker 4: using that kind of cell phone. What happened with Senator Murkowski?
4:08
Speaker 4: I know that you two gentlemen were healing and dealing
4:12
Speaker 4: a little bit on the Senate floor.
4:13
Speaker 3: So well, let's say number one, Ted was awesome. We
4:16
Speaker 3: had a little team trying to convince people. Can you
4:19
Speaker 3: say shit show on podcasts?
4:21
Speaker 4: Yeah?
4:21
Speaker 3: I think you just did this all right? So what
4:23
Speaker 3: would happen if you call witnesses being a shit show?
4:26
Speaker 3: You're just not gonna call John Bolton. If you're gonna
4:28
Speaker 3: call a witness, we're gonna call all the witnesses. Would
4:31
Speaker 3: you know, I want to know a little bit about
4:33
Speaker 3: the Bidens. You know, I like Joe Biden, But give
4:36
Speaker 3: me a break. If Mike Pence's son was making three
4:38
Speaker 3: million dollars a year from the most corrupt gas company
4:41
Speaker 3: in the Ukraine, don't you think you might hear about it.
4:44
Speaker 3: You only go to hear about the Bidens on this podcast.
4:47
Speaker 3: So the bottom line here is Ted made a very
4:51
Speaker 3: eloquent argument that it throws the courts into chaos. It'd
4:55
Speaker 3: be the first impeachment in history if you have executive
5:00
Speaker 3: of which will be decided by the United States Senate,
5:02
Speaker 3: that if you call one witness, you're going to call
5:05
Speaker 3: a bunch of witnesses. The President didn't get to call
5:08
Speaker 3: one witness in the house. So you open up Pandora's
5:11
Speaker 3: box and number two, the whole idea of legitimizing an
5:16
Speaker 3: impeachment in the House that took seventy eight days. You
5:20
Speaker 3: can't get a parking ticket in seventy eight days, if
5:22
Speaker 3: you can test it. Not one witness allowed to be
5:25
Speaker 3: called by the president, no cross examination. The bottom line
5:29
Speaker 3: is the whole thing was a sham, and we were
5:32
Speaker 3: trying to convince Lisa and everybody else. Don't legitimize this,
5:35
Speaker 3: don't do their work for them. They're accusing you of
5:37
Speaker 3: being unfair because you did not call a witness. They
5:41
Speaker 3: chose not to call. Why didn't they call John Bolten
5:43
Speaker 3: because it would be inconvenient. They couldn't impeach the president
5:46
Speaker 3: by Christmas. That's not a good reason to ignore the courts.
5:50
Speaker 4: Do you think that it was the public arguments, well,
5:53
Speaker 4: we all saw on TV that moved Senator Murkowski, or
5:55
Speaker 4: was it more private conversation? So I think the pivotal
5:58
Speaker 4: moment happened before yesterday. Day before yesterday, Adam Schiff made
6:02
Speaker 4: a mistake. He was standing up.
6:04
Speaker 2: Arguing and he said, he said, listen, the White House
6:08
Speaker 2: defense team have made John Bolton relevant because they have
6:12
Speaker 2: contradicted what he said. And then he threw a little aside.
6:15
Speaker 2: He said, if they'd just stipulated to it, then they'd
6:18
Speaker 2: have an argument. And it was interesting. I heard that
6:21
Speaker 2: Jay Seculo's eyes got real wide when he said that,
6:24
Speaker 2: and I got up and went back to the cloak room.
6:26
Speaker 2: Lindsey went back to the cloak well.
6:28
Speaker 3: I opened my eyes at that point.
6:29
Speaker 4: So for those of us who were not us senators.
6:32
Speaker 4: Why is that the big light bulb moment? So well,
6:34
Speaker 4: I'll tell you.
6:35
Speaker 2: So, I immediately in the cloak room, got my phone,
6:38
Speaker 2: texted my team and said, give me the transcript of
6:41
Speaker 2: exactly what Schiff just said. And I went to Lindsay
6:44
Speaker 2: and we began talking, saying, look, we need to get Lamar.
6:47
Speaker 2: We need to get Lisa this idea of if you
6:51
Speaker 2: stipulate to a quid pro quo, if you agree, even
6:54
Speaker 2: if there is a quid pro quo, we win. That
6:57
Speaker 2: might get their vote, that might give them, give them
6:59
Speaker 2: a ground to be comfortable. So we got the script,
7:02
Speaker 2: Lindsay and I together in the cloak room. We talked
7:04
Speaker 2: with Lamar. We showed him exactly what he said. We said,
7:07
Speaker 2: what do you think about this? We talked with Lisa.
7:09
Speaker 2: They said, hey, what do you think about this? They
7:11
Speaker 2: were open to the idea. They weren't convinced, but they
7:13
Speaker 2: were thinking about it. They were listening. We kept talking
7:17
Speaker 2: the next day. In the question period, I think the
7:19
Speaker 2: most important question is a question Lindsay wrote that I
7:22
Speaker 2: helped him write, and it was a question that was
7:24
Speaker 2: to the White House team that essentially said, if you
7:28
Speaker 2: assume for sake of argument. Then John Bolton testifies and
7:31
Speaker 2: everything he says is right, that we just assume everything's right,
7:34
Speaker 2: that there's a quid pro quo? Is that an impeachable
7:38
Speaker 2: offense or not? And the White House lawyers that they
7:42
Speaker 2: didn't want to go down this road. They had to
7:44
Speaker 2: be dragged, kicking and screaming to this point. And I'll
7:47
Speaker 2: tell you there was some kicking and screaming that Lindsay
7:49
Speaker 2: and I were both engaged with. But they got up
7:52
Speaker 2: and they gave the answer, the most important answer where
7:54
Speaker 2: they said, look, even if he testified, even if he
7:57
Speaker 2: says it's a quid pro quo, it doesn't change the
8:00
Speaker 2: it's an impeachable offense, which means his testimony isn't necessary.
8:03
Speaker 2: And they walked through, as we've been talking about on
8:05
Speaker 2: this podcast, that a president can always investigate corruption and
8:09
Speaker 2: if that's right, that a president can always investigate corruption,
8:13
Speaker 2: there was more than enough evidence of corruption, and I
8:15
Speaker 2: think that played. That exchange where the White House lawyers
8:18
Speaker 2: made that argument in response to the question we teed up,
8:22
Speaker 2: I think was pivotal to getting both Lisa and Lamar,
8:26
Speaker 2: especially Lisa, to yes, which we need.
8:28
Speaker 4: So what you're saying the White House team was pushing back.
8:31
Speaker 4: They didn't necessarily want to go down this road of
8:34
Speaker 4: if there was a quid pro quo, then X, Y
8:37
Speaker 4: and Z. However, if you address that argument and it
8:42
Speaker 4: still doesn't matter, if there is a quid pro quo,
8:44
Speaker 4: then there is no basis whatsoever for the impeachment.
8:47
Speaker 3: Well, there's no basis to call John Bolton. So what
8:51
Speaker 3: brought all this up? You know, Ted was very I'm
8:54
Speaker 3: a practical guy. Lisa Murkowski is independent from Alaska. Yeah,
8:58
Speaker 3: we're Republicans from Texas in South Carolina, a little different politics.
9:02
Speaker 3: And here's the problem. They could have called John Bolton
9:06
Speaker 3: and others, but they choose not to because they wanted
9:09
Speaker 3: to impeach the president before Christmas. The president would declared
9:12
Speaker 3: executive privilege had gone to court like Nixon and Clinton did.
9:16
Speaker 3: But that got in the way of this railroad right job.
9:19
Speaker 3: But the problem is there's a blurb in the New
9:21
Speaker 3: York Times, as they always do, saying John Bolton has
9:24
Speaker 3: direct evidence that the President asked him to condition the
9:28
Speaker 3: AID on investigating the bodies looking at interference by the Ukraine.
9:33
Speaker 3: That was different. The defense team of the President said
9:36
Speaker 3: there is no direct evidence there right, there was no
9:38
Speaker 3: direct evidence in the record that the House chose to establish,
9:43
Speaker 3: and from just a common sense point of view, it
9:46
Speaker 3: raises a question. Lamar is an institutionalist. He wanted to
9:49
Speaker 3: make sure that the Senate was a body that was
9:52
Speaker 3: open minded, fair, and Lisa had to go back home
9:56
Speaker 3: and explain, well, why didn't you call any witnesses? And
9:59
Speaker 3: here's the point. If we call John Bolton, now, won't
10:05
Speaker 3: the president raise executive privilege? Because if he doesn't, he
10:08
Speaker 3: forfeits that for future presidents. Do we as senators destroy
10:12
Speaker 3: the privilege? It'd be the first impeachment in history where
10:15
Speaker 3: there was no court access. We would have to decide
10:18
Speaker 3: executive privilege. And I think that made Lamar feel uncomfortable.
10:21
Speaker 4: So walk me through that just a little bit more,
10:22
Speaker 4: because this is now not an argument.
10:24
Speaker 3: So this is really important right here. So this is
10:27
Speaker 3: about what happens if we try to capture this testimony.
10:32
Speaker 3: The president was denied the chance to go to court
10:35
Speaker 3: in the House. They shut him out. What if we say,
10:38
Speaker 3: now we want to call him for a new reason,
10:42
Speaker 3: and if he'd asked to go to court, the logic
10:45
Speaker 3: is the court of impeachment decides not Article three courts.
10:48
Speaker 3: It may be the first time in history a president
10:50
Speaker 3: was impeached without ever being able to avail the courts.
10:53
Speaker 3: So what's the answer to this, assuming for a moment
10:57
Speaker 3: argueindough podcast people, you.
10:59
Speaker 2: Don't go look up, okay, you shut off your Latin
11:03
Speaker 2: into episode.
11:04
Speaker 4: So arguing, I.
11:05
Speaker 3: Am like it is a lawyer word.
11:07
Speaker 4: You put it in brace all the time.
11:09
Speaker 2: Or you say assume argumentdo which is I'm not admitting it, yeah,
11:12
Speaker 2: but assume for case of argument this is true, we
11:15
Speaker 2: still win. And so you do that in briefs all
11:16
Speaker 2: the time.
11:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right in South Carolina. What if he said
11:19
Speaker 3: it just assuming ARGUMENTO, would it matter? So I assume,
11:25
Speaker 3: for a moment, for argument, for the sake of argument,
11:29
Speaker 3: that if John Bolton did, if he was told by
11:32
Speaker 3: the president, I want to suspend a until I find
11:35
Speaker 3: more about what the Bidens did. He had every reason
11:38
Speaker 3: in the world because if you were in charge, did
11:41
Speaker 3: if I put you in charge of fixing corruption in
11:44
Speaker 3: the Ukraine and I find out that your son.
11:48
Speaker 2: Who's getting to you, I'm told that job pays a
11:50
Speaker 2: million bucks A yeak, okay, So it's pretty don't you
11:52
Speaker 2: think the podcasting, don't you think when Joe Biden gets
11:55
Speaker 2: in front of the Ukrainian parliament says, we got in
11:58
Speaker 2: corruption in the Ukraine, particularly the intersect energy sector, and
12:02
Speaker 2: everybody said, well, why is your son on the border
12:04
Speaker 2: breize by making a million.
12:05
Speaker 3: Dollars it kind of undercuts your argument. It destroyed our ability,
12:09
Speaker 3: quite frankly, to be credible agents of change. And that's
12:12
Speaker 3: a public policy. And you know, all Lamar said, that's right,
12:15
Speaker 3: there's a reason to look at that. And there was
12:17
Speaker 3: all kind of evidence that the Ukraine didn't like Trump
12:21
Speaker 3: and like Clinton at least parts of it. So the
12:23
Speaker 3: president had a legitimate public purpose. And that gets back
12:26
Speaker 3: to Dershowitz. He says, if there's a mixed motive, the
12:29
Speaker 3: reason is impeachment sucks so much. We got to get
12:31
Speaker 3: into Trump's brain and find out how much of it
12:34
Speaker 3: was personal and how much of it was public and
12:36
Speaker 3: what ted and I said, you know, they said, there's
12:39
Speaker 3: not a sentient of evidence that the Biden said anything wrong.
12:42
Speaker 3: I said, Yo, there's not. There's a herdisan dillas. You know,
12:46
Speaker 3: if you find one of these little suckers rumming around
12:48
Speaker 3: and you win, so like even I could prove this
12:53
Speaker 3: doesn't pass the smell test. And they started thinking, and
12:57
Speaker 3: I said, assume for a moment that the conversation was
13:00
Speaker 3: most beneficial to the house managers. You wind up right
13:04
Speaker 3: where you are today. There's a legitimate public purpose to
13:07
Speaker 3: suspend the AID and this is not an impeachable fence.
13:10
Speaker 3: Do you think the founders really meant to throw the
13:14
Speaker 3: president out of office who could never run again because
13:17
Speaker 3: for forty days he's suspended age of the Ukraine. They
13:20
Speaker 3: wind up getting the money and they didn't investigate anybody.
13:23
Speaker 4: But this is a real trick, a real political trick here,
13:26
Speaker 4: because you've got Senator Alexander, who you say cares about
13:30
Speaker 4: the institution. He's a wonderful man, a credibility absolutely, And
13:33
Speaker 4: you've got Senator Murkowski, who's independent. She's got to go
13:36
Speaker 4: back home. They had real problems, so they have separate problems.
13:41
Speaker 3: So I understood maybe differently than others. Now I'll let
13:44
Speaker 3: Ted talk here. You've got to address the problem in
13:47
Speaker 3: front of you from Lisa Murkowski's point of view. If
13:50
Speaker 3: we could show lie so that if you had the
13:53
Speaker 3: New York Times article in front of you, and I
13:56
Speaker 3: tried to get a stipulation the day before. Would it
13:59
Speaker 3: really matter it didn't still fall short of impeachment. Is
14:02
Speaker 3: this really what they meant to throw a president out?
14:04
Speaker 3: That you supend aid when they got the money, never
14:07
Speaker 3: did investigation the big picture stuff. Then I think that
14:10
Speaker 3: turned the thinking that you really didn't need Bolton because
14:14
Speaker 3: it wouldn't change the outcome.
14:16
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I think was really
14:18
Speaker 2: potent is Lindsey's a trial lawyer.
14:21
Speaker 4: I'm an appellet lawyer.
14:22
Speaker 2: Those are different worlds, those are different arenas.
14:24
Speaker 3: I say shit show and he says other stuff.
14:27
Speaker 4: So that's difference between the trial lawyer and apello lawyer.
14:29
Speaker 2: Look look, trial lawyers talk to jury's, appellate lawyers talk
14:32
Speaker 2: to judges. Those are different ways of framing things. But
14:36
Speaker 2: he and I teamed up very closely. We probably wrote
14:38
Speaker 2: a dozen questions together, some of which we asked, some
14:41
Speaker 2: of which we gave to our colleagues and they asked,
14:43
Speaker 2: But a lot of it we were aiming over and
14:46
Speaker 2: over and over again. We had a purpose at Lamar
14:49
Speaker 2: and Lisa, trying to move them but trying to also
14:52
Speaker 2: give them. You know, we've talked on this podcast a
14:55
Speaker 2: lot of times about framing the narrative and choosing choosing
14:58
Speaker 2: the terrain on which you find if the whole fight.
15:02
Speaker 2: Early on, the White House spent hours an hour saying
15:04
Speaker 2: there's no qui pro quot, there's no quid pro quote. Well,
15:06
Speaker 2: you know what, if that's their argument, the fact that
15:09
Speaker 2: The New York Times says John Bolton says there is
15:11
Speaker 2: a quid pro quo that suddenly makes if someone or
15:16
Speaker 2: even handed, If that's the central dispute, it's really hard
15:20
Speaker 2: to say, well, goy, shouldn't we bring him in to testify?
15:23
Speaker 2: What was important? And it took a couple of days
15:25
Speaker 2: to get us there is to make clear, it doesn't
15:28
Speaker 2: matter if there was a quid pro quot or not.
15:30
Speaker 2: That's not the issue.
15:32
Speaker 4: So I'm certain interrupt there were these competing strategies.
15:36
Speaker 3: Two okay, So here's the point. You got to know
15:38
Speaker 3: who you're talking to. Lisa Murkowski is very independent. She's
15:42
Speaker 3: not going to do something because somebody tells her to.
15:46
Speaker 3: It's inconvenient. If you want a witness, that's not going
15:49
Speaker 3: to matter. It may hurt the team if you call
15:51
Speaker 3: a witness. And Lamar loves the institution. He's about to
15:55
Speaker 3: retire he's going to do what he thinks best, and
15:58
Speaker 3: what we try to do is explain play it out.
16:01
Speaker 3: They're playing a game here. They set us up. They
16:03
Speaker 3: could have called the witness, they chose not to because
16:06
Speaker 3: it's inconvenient. Now they're asking you to deal out Article
16:10
Speaker 3: three courts bad. So assume for a moment you had
16:13
Speaker 3: Bolton in front of you. Would it really change the
16:16
Speaker 3: outcome here? Does it make it an impeachable offense for
16:19
Speaker 3: Bolton to say what he's going to say? And the
16:21
Speaker 3: answer is clearly no.
16:22
Speaker 2: Now, there was another argument that I think moved them
16:25
Speaker 2: quite a bit, yes, and it was that what the
16:28
Speaker 2: Democrats were trying to do if we'd have been fifty
16:30
Speaker 2: to fifty, this is a big one here. The Democrats
16:32
Speaker 2: were trying to go after the US Supreme.
16:34
Speaker 4: Court because if it had been fifty to fifty, and
16:37
Speaker 4: we talked about this on the show last time, it's
16:40
Speaker 4: completely unclear.
16:42
Speaker 2: If there is, they would have tried to make John
16:44
Speaker 2: Roberts decide, and whatever he did, it would have been
16:49
Speaker 2: viewed through a political lens. And so look, one case
16:52
Speaker 2: that a number of us made is is we're in
16:54
Speaker 2: a world where people have lost faith in Congress. They've
16:58
Speaker 2: lost faith in the presidency. And if we come through
17:01
Speaker 2: this and let the Democrats tarnish the Supreme Court to
17:04
Speaker 2: where they lose faith in every institution of government, that's
17:08
Speaker 2: a real problem. And Michael, I think we've got a
17:10
Speaker 2: clip here, Yes, that'll give an example of the democrats strategy.
17:15
Speaker 5: Question from Senator Warren is for the House Managers. At
17:18
Speaker 5: a time when large majorities of Americans have lost faith
17:21
Speaker 5: in government, does the fact that the Chief Justice is
17:25
Speaker 5: presiding over an impeachment trial in which Republican Senators have
17:29
Speaker 5: thus far refused to allow witnesses or evidence contribute to
17:34
Speaker 5: the loss of legitimacy of the Chief Justice, the Supreme Court,
17:38
Speaker 5: and the Constitution.
17:39
Speaker 4: Now, that is an insulting question.
17:41
Speaker 2: Now, Michael, I'm going to tell you something surprising. Elizabeth
17:45
Speaker 2: Warren helped defeat the impeachment of the President of the
17:49
Speaker 2: United States. How do you mean that little stunt she
17:51
Speaker 2: pulled was a campaign stunt. That was a fundraising stunt
17:55
Speaker 2: that was designed to thrill the left wing activists in
17:59
Speaker 2: the Iowa Caucus. There ain't nothing else going on than that.
18:02
Speaker 2: But I'll tell you what that's stunt. Yeah, helped deliver
18:07
Speaker 2: the votes of Lisa and Lamar.
18:09
Speaker 4: It did because it.
18:11
Speaker 2: Made clear this is a political game and if John
18:15
Speaker 2: Roberts doesn't vote the way Elizabeth Warren wants, she's gonna
18:19
Speaker 2: call him a political hack and throw him into politics.
18:21
Speaker 2: And it suddenly raised the price of their voting and
18:26
Speaker 2: making it fifty to fifty because you don't want to
18:28
Speaker 2: see the court thrown into that political swamp.
18:31
Speaker 3: Do you agree with that, lindsay one hundred percent. All
18:32
Speaker 3: you got to do is look at her statement. She
18:35
Speaker 3: said a fair trial in the sentence impossible because of them.
18:38
Speaker 4: This is Lisa Mercowski.
18:39
Speaker 3: Yes. So her statement was that they're going to set
18:43
Speaker 3: up the Chief Justice because they hate Trump so much.
18:46
Speaker 3: So the difference between fifty one and fifty is enormous.
18:49
Speaker 3: If it's fifty to fifty, then you put the Chief
18:52
Speaker 3: Justice in the cross hairs of history. You begin to
18:55
Speaker 3: corrupt the court. As Ted said, they could give a
18:58
Speaker 3: damn on the other side. They just want an outcome here.
19:01
Speaker 3: And I think it really mattered to Lamar and Lisa
19:05
Speaker 3: that Ted explained the historic nature of what the Chief
19:09
Speaker 3: Justice would be required to decide. And I think I
19:12
Speaker 3: explained honest to God, if you believed every word of
19:16
Speaker 3: John Bolt, would it matter.
19:18
Speaker 2: The truth is it would be a left wing attack
19:20
Speaker 2: group today put out an attack ad with John Roberts
19:24
Speaker 2: bring a MAGA hat. Yeah, and that ticked off Republican
19:28
Speaker 2: senators that helped produce the vote we had today.
19:31
Speaker 4: So you think it was just an overreach by people
19:33
Speaker 4: like Senator Warren, by these left wing groups. So what
19:36
Speaker 4: I want to know? I mean, this was a truly
19:39
Speaker 4: shocking day. What happens now?
19:42
Speaker 3: Well, I just want to fill out with what you said.
19:44
Speaker 3: It wasn't just an overreach by them. They helped. It
19:47
Speaker 3: was two senators or are good people thinking it through?
19:51
Speaker 3: And Ted bringing to the table and expertise that very
19:54
Speaker 3: few people have, quite frankly, And I just tried to say, listen,
19:57
Speaker 3: I try to be fair. Supported the Muller investigation. I
20:02
Speaker 3: actually co sponsored legislation that would prevent Muller from being
20:06
Speaker 3: fired without.
20:06
Speaker 4: Causing Yeah, what the heck were you thinking?
20:08
Speaker 5: There?
20:08
Speaker 3: Well, just to tell Trump what the hell are you thinking?
20:11
Speaker 3: I understand you know, if you fire this guy, you're dead.
20:14
Speaker 3: And I thought Muller would be fair, but this whole
20:17
Speaker 3: process has not been fair. So I could say listen, guys,
20:21
Speaker 3: it's not like I think the presence beyond being looked at.
20:24
Speaker 3: What they did in the House is dangerous to the country.
20:27
Speaker 3: It's a partisan impeachment, no due process, and we need
20:30
Speaker 3: to end it the right way. Do not make it worse.
20:33
Speaker 3: And what would make it worse is to do what
20:36
Speaker 3: Ted said, put the court in the crosshairs of history
20:38
Speaker 3: in the wrong way. And what would make it worse
20:41
Speaker 3: is to to let them go to us into calling
20:43
Speaker 3: a witness. That wouldn't matter because they think we're unfair.
20:47
Speaker 3: You've done nothing wrong here. It was the other side
20:50
Speaker 3: who did something wrong well. And as a consequence, John
20:53
Speaker 3: Roberts is not in a position where he has to
20:56
Speaker 3: make any controversial rulings where they get where he's being
20:59
Speaker 3: set up to be attacked as being political. He simply
21:03
Speaker 3: he presided over a fair trial and it was the senators.
21:06
Speaker 2: Who were voted. And look, we're elected to make policy
21:10
Speaker 2: decisions and political decisions and also to apply the constitutional standard,
21:14
Speaker 2: and that's what we did.
21:15
Speaker 4: In some way, it feels like we dodged a bullet
21:17
Speaker 4: if it were a fifty fifth you.
21:18
Speaker 3: Have no idea, No, no, you dodged a canniate truck. Yeah,
21:23
Speaker 3: but because really just play it out. We call witnesses.
21:27
Speaker 3: Then you're not just going to call John Bolton. You're
21:30
Speaker 3: going to have the whistleblower. It's going to be a
21:33
Speaker 3: nightmare for the country. You have all kinds of issues
21:35
Speaker 3: decided by the Senate should be decided by the courts,
21:38
Speaker 3: and you would set a precedent that I think would
21:40
Speaker 3: make impeachment of every president in the future almost a certainty.
21:43
Speaker 4: And it seemed actually in some of the arguments we
21:46
Speaker 4: heard during the trial, there was a threat there or
21:49
Speaker 4: an acknowledgment that if we continue down this path, we're
21:52
Speaker 4: going to impeach every president from now on.
21:54
Speaker 2: Well, and that remains a real risk that we've opened
21:58
Speaker 2: the door to.
21:58
Speaker 3: So how do you stop that? If the House loses?
22:01
Speaker 3: And one of the reasons they lost is because they've
22:03
Speaker 3: gone crazy. Donald Trump's changed the Republican Party, but he's
22:06
Speaker 3: driven the Democratic Party completely nuts. What would happen if
22:11
Speaker 3: President Trump gets re elected? Death exoneration?
22:14
Speaker 2: Well, and let me underscore that, because that's a very
22:16
Speaker 2: good point. I actually think Bill Clinton helped keep Barack
22:20
Speaker 2: Obama from getting impeached. Now, why is that Republicans impeached,
22:26
Speaker 2: and actually, lindsay was you don't try this at home, okay,
22:31
Speaker 2: And it backfired. It it hurt Republicans, it got Bill
22:34
Speaker 2: Clinton re elected. It didn't work, and a lot of
22:37
Speaker 2: Republicans took that message, Hey, wait a second, being seen
22:41
Speaker 2: being two partisan, too aggressive using impeachment. That's a problem.
22:45
Speaker 2: And so when it came to Obama, look Obama on
22:48
Speaker 2: the abuse of power theory that we've heard from the
22:50
Speaker 2: House managers. Obama abused his power in many respects, and
22:54
Speaker 2: yet all of us agreed we shouldn't be impeaching Obama.
22:57
Speaker 2: We should beat him at the ballot box, which we
22:59
Speaker 2: tried to do. But impeachment wasn't the right tool. If
23:03
Speaker 2: Republicans hadn't gotten burned so bad on the Clinton impeachment,
23:07
Speaker 2: there would have been some loud voices to impeach Obama.
23:10
Speaker 2: But as it was, people said, let's not go down
23:12
Speaker 2: that road. So, if you want to stop partisan impeachments
23:16
Speaker 2: going forward, the best way and Lindsey, you're right, I
23:18
Speaker 2: hadn't thought about it and connected it like this. The
23:20
Speaker 2: best way to stop it is for Democrats to get
23:24
Speaker 2: walloped in November, because then the next Democrats will say, okay, wow,
23:28
Speaker 2: this impeaching business. And by the way, the Republicans will.
23:32
Speaker 3: Too, well, you know we still remember okay. Lamar asked
23:35
Speaker 3: a question, what's the partisan difference between Nixon, Clinton and Trump?
23:42
Speaker 3: A lot, a little Nune, a lot of bipartisanship for Nixon.
23:47
Speaker 3: H that's the kind of thing the founders had in mind.
23:50
Speaker 3: You know, this is a constitutional death penloity for a politician.
23:54
Speaker 3: You should use exparingly. Clinton had thirty three Democrats say,
23:58
Speaker 3: let's look at it, bipartisan impeachment, and Clinton basically cheated
24:03
Speaker 3: Paula Jones out of her day in court, hit, evidence, perjury,
24:07
Speaker 3: you name it. You can't have the most powerful person
24:09
Speaker 3: in the country destory a private citizen's right to have
24:13
Speaker 3: their day in court. Now Here we are with Trump
24:15
Speaker 3: bipartisan rejection of the articles of impeachment, and I think
24:20
Speaker 3: that bothered Lamar. It was the way it was done
24:23
Speaker 3: and the outcome in the House. We don't want to.
24:25
Speaker 2: Be joined with Lamar on a question exactly Now.
24:29
Speaker 4: Lamar really rose to the occasion because what you're saying
24:32
Speaker 4: is there was a bipartisan rejection and rejection, but in
24:34
Speaker 4: terms of the people who actually voted for impeachment. It
24:36
Speaker 4: was the first time in US history you had a
24:39
Speaker 4: purely partisan impeachment.
24:41
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:41
Speaker 3: I hope it's the last. See Clinton was in his
24:44
Speaker 3: second term, Nixon resigned. If Trump wins, he'll be the
24:49
Speaker 3: first person impeached in his first term to get reelected.
24:52
Speaker 3: That will exonerate him.
24:54
Speaker 4: Now, I want to know. Obviously, the impeachment hearings have
24:57
Speaker 4: been so dreary and tedious, and.
24:59
Speaker 3: It's been kidding me.
25:00
Speaker 4: It's you know, I fun I admit it.
25:04
Speaker 3: You're watching this podcast, you're loving this well the.
25:06
Speaker 4: Podcast maybe sea Span I don't know, although actually people
25:09
Speaker 4: listen to this because they can't watch sea Span for
25:11
Speaker 4: thirteen hours and it makes their eyes and ears bleed.
25:14
Speaker 3: But this way, this is somewhere between c Span and
25:18
Speaker 3: the trough.
25:20
Speaker 4: Was there any moment that was that had some levity
25:24
Speaker 4: to it? The some foibles?
25:27
Speaker 2: I think the funniest moment was last night, the very
25:30
Speaker 2: last of the questions, sixteen hours of questions, Amy club
25:33
Speaker 2: a chart submits the last question, sends the car down
25:35
Speaker 2: number one. She sends the wrong card down so the
25:37
Speaker 2: chief doesn't read it. She realized that she screwed up.
25:39
Speaker 2: She has to run down and write her name on
25:41
Speaker 2: the car.
25:41
Speaker 3: So that starts off with it's not not cracking up
25:44
Speaker 3: at that, and it's not that hard.
25:47
Speaker 4: You literally write your name on it, you know, kindergarten.
25:52
Speaker 3: Okay, I did it three times and I didn't screw up,
25:55
Speaker 3: you know, put.
25:56
Speaker 4: Your name on the top block letters. I think she
25:58
Speaker 4: was thinking about Iowa.
25:59
Speaker 3: Maybe she was so phil this is a good one.
26:02
Speaker 3: Keep going.
26:02
Speaker 2: So her question was with the house managers give a
26:06
Speaker 2: closing argument. So Adam Shift stands up, you seem kind
26:09
Speaker 2: of puff at his chest.
26:10
Speaker 4: He starts walking.
26:11
Speaker 2: Forward, and Jerry Nadler, who is sitting in like four
26:13
Speaker 2: seats behind him, runs behind him, push a schiff out
26:17
Speaker 2: of the leg and goes to the microphone, and and
26:20
Speaker 2: Schiff is literally going Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. And he stands
26:25
Speaker 2: there behind Lynnadler, I mean glaring. He wanted to punch
26:31
Speaker 2: or strangle him.
26:32
Speaker 4: These are the two House Democrat impeachment managers. They're the leads.
26:36
Speaker 2: And Nadler just went and gave his closing arguments, and
26:39
Speaker 2: Schiff stood there for a good ten seconds, and then
26:41
Speaker 2: he just sat down and glared at Nadler the whole time.
26:46
Speaker 2: And by the way Roberts, he had his reading glasses
26:49
Speaker 2: on the tip of his nose. And I know I've
26:51
Speaker 2: known John Roberts twenty five years. You saw a slight smile,
26:55
Speaker 2: which for him is cracking up because they almost had as.
27:00
Speaker 3: Were smiling his luck.
27:01
Speaker 2: So he's actually wickedly funny.
27:07
Speaker 3: I know, John, You're right, he's a breeding and is
27:10
Speaker 3: only Mitchell O'Connell's funny in his own way. So so
27:14
Speaker 3: here's the deal. Jerry's wife is sick. Pray for it.
27:17
Speaker 3: She's got she's got pinker added cancer and I'm praying
27:21
Speaker 3: for driving. Known him for a long time. But Jerry
27:22
Speaker 3: can throw a punch. He can take a punch. So
27:25
Speaker 3: number one shift. If Jerry Nayler is out running you,
27:28
Speaker 3: you need to get better shape. So but the deal is,
27:33
Speaker 3: it was just shocking and we were all pulling for
27:36
Speaker 3: Nadler to win the race. We've heard enough of shift,
27:39
Speaker 3: so shifts started good. But after about thirty hours of shift,
27:42
Speaker 3: you're ready to turn the channel. You know, it's bad
27:45
Speaker 3: when people want to hear Nadler, not not shift. So
27:49
Speaker 3: the bottom line, here's another the classic story. And I
27:53
Speaker 3: know we got to go. Y'all gotta do whatever you
27:55
Speaker 3: do in a podcast.
27:57
Speaker 4: Wolf.
28:00
Speaker 3: Don't drink and dry.
28:02
Speaker 4: So here's the deal, flip flowing.
28:04
Speaker 3: So Chuck Schumer trying to be clever. Sometimes he is,
28:09
Speaker 3: sometimes we all fall short in his business. He invites, uh,
28:14
Speaker 3: he gives his ticket to be a spectator at the
28:17
Speaker 3: trial to parn Us to this is this cool crooked
28:21
Speaker 3: a snake guy, And the Ukraine said that I'm in
28:26
Speaker 3: on it. Lindsey Graham knew it all. And they said,
28:29
Speaker 3: have you ever taught Lindsey Graham? No, but I heard
28:31
Speaker 3: he knew it all, so I don't know it all.
28:35
Speaker 3: So they invite him to come. He shows up to
28:38
Speaker 3: get his ticket. He can't get in because he's got
28:40
Speaker 3: an anklet bracelet from the court. You can't make this one.
28:46
Speaker 4: Up, that is you know.
28:47
Speaker 3: I almost wish that Schumer's guess can't come into the
28:50
Speaker 3: trail because he's got an ankle bracelet's.
28:52
Speaker 4: Par for the court, you know, State of the Union.
28:54
Speaker 2: I heard Schumer's bringing Charles Manson.
28:57
Speaker 3: That'd be good, that'd be interesting. The guys did so, Uh, anyway,
29:01
Speaker 3: I've never done this before. If you're number two in
29:03
Speaker 3: the podcast world, you need to up your game. Is
29:07
Speaker 3: number apparently we're number one. I know that.
29:13
Speaker 4: Compliment, you know, speaking of we've got to get you
29:18
Speaker 4: out of here because the senators are off, you get
29:20
Speaker 4: a couple of days off.
29:21
Speaker 3: Now, weird union.
29:23
Speaker 4: We're I'm headed to Texas, heading to Texas.
29:27
Speaker 3: Senator Graham, you're done, is going to South Carolina? One
29:29
Speaker 3: last store. You know the two guys that led the Alamo,
29:32
Speaker 3: both of them are from South Carolina. What does that mean?
29:35
Speaker 3: We'll go a long way for a lost cause? And uh,
29:39
Speaker 3: I was an impeachment Maxas heroes. I would love Texas heroes.
29:42
Speaker 3: God blessed Texas. But Henry I was giving us the
29:44
Speaker 3: old take the hill boys. We're gonna go over the Senate.
29:48
Speaker 3: We're gonna stand for truth, justice in the American way.
29:52
Speaker 3: You know, the the the brave men and women at
29:55
Speaker 3: the Alamo. You know they stood their ground, and you
29:59
Speaker 3: know that's our charge, that's our charter. I said, hey, Henry,
30:02
Speaker 3: didn't they all get killed? And he says, that's a
30:05
Speaker 3: that's something I ignored. But it's a good point. But
30:08
Speaker 3: he did say we're still talking about him to this day.
30:11
Speaker 4: It's true.
30:12
Speaker 2: And a final point wrapping up, there will be another bombshell.
30:15
Speaker 4: There will be an whole scene.
30:17
Speaker 3: Now in Cavan all times too.
30:18
Speaker 4: Do you promise you something.
30:20
Speaker 2: Else is coming between now and and and and the
30:24
Speaker 2: verdict on impeachment that will be voted on on Wednesday.
30:26
Speaker 2: There'll be another bombshell in the New York Times probably,
30:29
Speaker 2: but something else is coming.
30:30
Speaker 4: Because I when I when I saw it today, I
30:32
Speaker 4: just thought, Okay, it's over right. I don't need to
30:34
Speaker 4: worry about it anymore.
30:35
Speaker 3: You're saying, oh my god, we both were on Cavanaugh
30:38
Speaker 3: and you asked what's next after this? Is that we're
30:41
Speaker 3: going to ask some hard questions State Department. Why didn't
30:43
Speaker 3: you understand this conflict of ventures? Why didn't you do
30:46
Speaker 3: something about it. We're going to get to the bottom
30:48
Speaker 3: of the fives and warrant abuse. We're going to do
30:50
Speaker 3: all that stuff.
30:51
Speaker 4: But by the way, this is breaking news.
30:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, we cannot live in a country.
30:55
Speaker 4: So you're because a lot of questions in the mailbag
30:56
Speaker 4: people are asked.
30:57
Speaker 3: Now, trust me now, because I actually like Joe Biden.
31:02
Speaker 3: I have traveled the world with him. But you know,
31:04
Speaker 3: if it had been Mike Pence or Vice President Cheney,
31:07
Speaker 3: they'd be all over. We can't live in a world
31:09
Speaker 3: where just one side gets looked at. I don't have
31:12
Speaker 3: any animosity in my heart toward toward anyone, But the
31:15
Speaker 3: truth of the matter is you got to have a
31:17
Speaker 3: country where the rules matter for everybody, not just President Trump.
31:21
Speaker 3: I mean not for Democrats. President Trump, from the day
31:25
Speaker 3: he took office to now has gone through hell. His
31:27
Speaker 3: family's gone through hell. And I promise you to those
31:30
Speaker 3: who care, We're going to get to the bottom of
31:31
Speaker 3: barisma because it's important we find out about barisma. We're
31:35
Speaker 3: going to find out how could you an issue a
31:37
Speaker 3: warrant four times against an American citizen. Here's the world.
31:41
Speaker 3: If Trump goes to a Russian restaurant to have dinner,
31:44
Speaker 3: he's a Russian, you know, and you know you can
31:47
Speaker 3: have three million dollars paid to your son in the
31:49
Speaker 3: Ukraine and nobody cares.
31:51
Speaker 4: Now, if President Trump gets acquitted, you're saying, the Senate
31:54
Speaker 4: Republicans are not going to give up on this. What
31:56
Speaker 4: can be done over to get to the bottom.
31:58
Speaker 3: Of Jim Rish, Chairman of Foreign Relations Community, The first
32:01
Speaker 3: witness I want to call is John Carrey's chief of staff.
32:04
Speaker 3: When you were told that there was a conflict of interest,
32:07
Speaker 3: by John Carrey's step son, who is their business partner?
32:10
Speaker 3: Why don't you do something about it?
32:12
Speaker 4: And last I checked, both you and I are on
32:14
Speaker 4: foreign relations.
32:15
Speaker 3: Last time I checked, we're on judiciary and we're on
32:17
Speaker 3: foreign relations. This is the beginning of a day of reckoning.
32:23
Speaker 4: This is not the beginning of the end. Maybe the
32:25
Speaker 4: end of the beginning. We're moving on is the end
32:28
Speaker 4: of the podcast, and it's the end of the One
32:30
Speaker 4: thing I want to know before we let you get
32:32
Speaker 4: out of here and hop onto a plane. One last
32:34
Speaker 4: thing is I noticed it's much earlier tonight. Usually we're
32:38
Speaker 4: here at two o'clock in the morning. It's only eleven
32:40
Speaker 4: o'clock at night. Why is it that, Mitch McConnell, that
32:44
Speaker 4: all these senators are letting people get out of here
32:46
Speaker 4: so early? Was there some I think the Democrats wanted
32:50
Speaker 4: to go to Iowa? The Democrats a three demo jumping
32:54
Speaker 4: to go to Iowa. Did did you talk to any
32:57
Speaker 4: of your colleagues?
32:57
Speaker 3: Were they well, you know, let's look at it this way.
33:02
Speaker 3: I'm not married, So why can't you get everything done
33:05
Speaker 3: the way you want it? I'll let ted answer that question.
33:08
Speaker 3: We've got one hundred people in the Senate. Everybody has
33:11
Speaker 3: different agendas. But Monday, so Sunday's super Bowl, right, Monday
33:16
Speaker 3: is the Iowa Caucus. Tuesday's the State of the Union.
33:19
Speaker 3: Bottom line is, this is the best Mitch could do.
33:21
Speaker 3: And I think Mitch McConnell did a brilliant job handling this.
33:24
Speaker 4: I really do bets on the Super Bowl before we go.
33:27
Speaker 2: Look, I'm rooting for the Chiefs just because they beat
33:29
Speaker 2: the Texans and so on that principle. If they go
33:32
Speaker 2: on to win, all I get to say the Texans
33:34
Speaker 2: are the second best in my record.
33:36
Speaker 3: We're pulling for the Falcons.
33:38
Speaker 4: There we are. That's our show. That's the that's the
33:40
Speaker 4: final verdict on the super Bowl. We've got a whole
33:42
Speaker 4: lot more coming. Yes, I'm Michael knowles on behalf of
33:50
Speaker 4: Senator Lindsey Graham, so gracious to spend the night in
33:52
Speaker 4: our bunker over here. Yeah, this is verdict with Ted Cruz.
33:56
Speaker 1: Senator that I'm so glad that everybody got to watch
33:59
Speaker 1: that podcast. Listen to it. If you didn't get to
34:01
Speaker 1: watch it, you can on YouTube. If you're listening to
34:03
Speaker 1: this as an audio podcast right now. It is you
34:07
Speaker 1: don't realize when you guys were taking that what a
34:09
Speaker 1: blessing it was going to be to have that video
34:11
Speaker 1: and those really fun moments, but also just to remember
34:14
Speaker 1: what a fighter he was and how you guys became
34:16
Speaker 1: good friends.
34:18
Speaker 2: He had a profound impact Without Lindsey Graham. I don't
34:22
Speaker 2: know that Brett Kavanaugh ever gets confirmed to the Supreme Court.
34:25
Speaker 2: I don't know that we get the Reconciliation Bill passed.
34:28
Speaker 2: I don't know that that President Trump has anywhere near
34:33
Speaker 2: the number of successes he's had without Lindsey Graham. And
34:36
Speaker 2: and so that podcast, You're right, when we were doing it,
34:39
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that there would come a time when
34:42
Speaker 2: he wasn't with us. To be honest, if we were
34:45
Speaker 2: going to have a guest for a second time on Verdict,
34:48
Speaker 2: Lindsey would have been right at the top of the list.
34:51
Speaker 2: And and we're not going to have the chance to
34:54
Speaker 2: do that. But I will say I missed my friend,
34:57
Speaker 2: and and thank you, Lindsey, thank you for the legacy
35:00
Speaker 2: you left for America.