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Mundane Magic for Writers: Ritual, Resistance, & the Nervous System · No Mess, No Magic

• Monica Hay: Hello and welcome to the Nomas No Magic Podcast with Monica Hay, a podcast for writers. Today I have a very special guest, Molly, who I have been a fangirl of for many a month. So it's Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: a little surreal to have you on my own podcast. Do you want to introduce yourself for us? Molly Donlan: I would love to. My name's Molly Donlin. My pronouns are she, her. I'm a Reiki master teacher. I'm a yoga teacher. I'm a lover of the science and the woo coming together. I co-host Demystify Magic, the podcast, and I host Science of Reiki, the podcast. And I am the best-selling author of Mundane Magic, among other Monica Hay: Yes. Molly Donlan: many facets of who I am. Monica Hay: Love it. And if you're watching the YouTube, this is the book, Monday Magic. I so for any of you who's who are listening, Molly's Demystify Magic podcast is like fucking huge. So I just put that out there. I I just I don't know how many like listens you necessarily get because I obviously don't see the back end, but I think you have over a thousand reviews on Spotify. So I'm just saying. Molly Donlan: Do we? my god. Okay. Slay. Monica Hay: Look at me. Molly Donlan: Well, I'm sure you know, like as a podcaster, like you're so in the analytics when you start. And then it gets to one point where you're just like, Yeah, I'm just like happy to be here. And the community Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: is like the conversation with the community becomes more important than the reviews and the numbers and all of that at some point. Monica Hay: Agreed. Yeah. I f I don't do I look at my Sometimes I look at it, I'm like, good. Like I don't actually look at the analytics typically. I I have done it I think twice since I started. Probably for the best. Molly Donlan: Yeah. It's probably for the best. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like podcasting is weird because you can't see anyone else's numbers. And so you're just Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: like, I don't know, could be big, could be small, like who knows? Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I'm yeah, I'm just happy to be here, like you said. I it's funny because I s I resisted starting a podcast for a long time because I much prefer interviewing. I don't like doing solo episodes that much. And I was like, I had to find people to interview. And my husband was like, You know people. Just start Molly Donlan: Yeah, yeah. Monica Hay: sending invites. but also I don't know. I love the medium of a podcast because there's a level of nuance that I feel like it's harder to capture on like Instagram or TikTok. That makes sense. Yep. Yep. Molly Donlan: Yes. That's why I started a podcast. That's literally why. I was tired of being like a 30 to 60 second soundbite and not being able to give all the nuance. And if you do give the nuance and the soundbite, it like tanks in the algorithm. And yeah. So I was Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. Molly Donlan: like, I can have a podcast where I can go deep into the nuance. I can pick apart Monica Hay: Exactly. Molly Donlan: all of my thoughts and feelings. And then I can create a soundbite from that. Monica Hay: Exactly. Yes, exactly. Okay. So we're gonna talk about your book. I'm very excited because it's funny, I was reading your book on a train to France months ago and I was like, I can just make my life magical. Like it was kind of Molly Donlan: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: it's funny because as an ADHDer, I don't actually find cleaning as overwhelming as some ADHDers, but I do find transitions very t very tough. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: and there are other things that I find very challenging, but It's it's funny because when I read your book, I'm like, I can just make everything magical. I can just do whatever. Molly Donlan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Isn't that freeing? Isn't that fun? Monica Hay: It is freeing. I it's funny because I feel like and I love s something that you mentioned that I wanna bring up before I start questions is the advice of like eat the frog first and how you like, This is stupid. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Ha ha. Monica Hay: If you want to explain that to the listener. Molly Donlan: Yeah. my gosh. Well, first of all, why are we eating frogs? They're so I mean, I'm freaked out by frogs. I had an experience with a frog last summer that I'll never forget. I like accidentally sat on one on my porch and like had one in my house and like it was l traumatic. So I'm not gonna eat a frog anytime soon. But I think so often we get the advice, the productivity advice is like do the hardest thing first, which if that works for you, I love that for you. It's never gonna work for me. If you're like Molly, do the hard thing, like. The other day, the hard thing was cleaning my kitchen. That's like one of my kryptonites. And if I don't clean my kitchen, then I don't eat. And then if I don't eat, I'm less motivated to clean the kitchen. It's this like vicious cycle. And so eat the frog first, people would tell me, just just go do it. Just go do the kitchen and then you can do the other things. My ADHD brain rebels against that. Instead of cleaning Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: the kitchen, what did I do? Organize my bathroom. Why? Like, Monica Hay: A little. Molly Donlan: and so The advice that I give in Mundane Magic is instead of approaching the hard thing first and meeting that resistance, whether you are neurodivergent or not, what if we did the easiest thing and built momentum to the hard thing? What isn't that Monica Hay: Yep. Yep. Molly Donlan: a novel concept? Monica Hay: Yeah, I think it's because once you do some of the easier things, then you start feeling good. It's some momentum, like you said. You're like, maybe I could do the other thing I don't really feel like doing. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: Like for me I think it's built in getting ready in the morning is like the one of the hardest hardest things for me. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: And washing my face doesn't feel very hard. Brushing my teeth feels And then getting my hair to look good. For those of Molly Donlan: Yeah, the curly hair. Monica Hay: you who are like, I want curly hair. No, you don't. Molly Donlan: I have naturally curly hair and I blow it out straight because I don't have the energy to do the curls anymore. Monica Hay: No. No. It's a whole thing. And it takes me it it's like a whole thing every morning because my curls don't stay intact at night. So I have to refresh Molly Donlan: Yep. Yep. Monica Hay: them in the morning and it's a whole thing. And like getting myself to do that is so hard. But usually the momentum goes once I've already washed my face and brushed my teeth. Like I'm a li I'm able to keep the momentum. Not every day. Molly Donlan: It's transition, right? It's if you struggle with transitions, then putting the hardest thing at the end of a transition just makes you resist it more. And Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: you know, once you like getting started is the hardest part. So why are we trying to make getting started even harder? Monica Hay: Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Let me guess our on the questions because I feel like we could just talk without having the questions. Let me let me bring in some of my my questions. So your work lives at a really interesting intersection of spirituality, nervous system science, and everyday life. I might know this a bit from your podcast myself, but for people who have not heard of you, how did you end up in this, especially since you describe yourself as a former skeptic skeptic of all of the woo things? Molly Donlan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I yeah, I didn't I didn't believe in magic my whole life. I thought it was just a thing on hocus pocus. I remember meeting my first witch in person. She was like, yeah, I'm a witch. And I was like, okay. Monica Hay: You're serious. Molly Donlan: Like just okay. What is that? And so for me, it was a journey of necessity. I my career prior to this was I spent nine years working with survivors of sexual violence. And that was my entire world. You know, I was the type of person that I went to work. And then when I wasn't working, I was volunteering on a domestic violence support line. And when I wasn't doing that, I was reading books about trauma. And when I wasn't doing that, I was watching lifetime movies and psychoanalyzing how they portrayed the victims. So that was my brand of ADHD hyperfixation was just like very mission focused, very purpose focused. And that field has come a long way in terms of how they educate advocates on the impact of trauma work. But when I started, it it was not a thing. We did not talk about secondary trauma. We didn't talk about vicarious trauma. I remember one of my mentors, my first mentor in that field, basically said to me and a group of other interns that these stories are not yours to take home. And if you're impacted by them, this is probably not the work for you. And so that moment, which we know is wrong now, but in that moment, at like 17, I was like, great, I will not be impacted by this work. And so I just sent all of that trauma that I was experiencing listening to other people's stories. I sent it underground into my body. And at 23, I developed a chronic hip pain that Doctors couldn't figure out, you know. I I saw pretty much every pain specialist I could find. And they were all like, I don't know. We Monica Hay: Mm. Molly Donlan: usually don't see this until you're like 80. And I'm like, great, love that for me. and so I started to burn out just in every aspect of that work. And because it was my whole life, I was really resistant to stopping. And so that was sort of sent me down the path of mindfulness practices and yoga and eventually, you know, ended up in a Reiki session somewhere just being like, I don't know, I'll try this kooky thing. Probably isn't gonna work, but what's the harm? And that was the first time that I experienced relief in my pain. Woke up the next morning Monica Hay: Mm. Molly Donlan: and I was just like, that was a weird coincidence. A week later went to my chiropractor and he was like, What did you do? Your hips are in alignment for the first time. And I was like, What a weird koinky dink. and really just kind of fell down this rabbit hole. And the science and understanding what was actually happening really helped me get on board with the experience that I was feeling with Reiki. And really seeing the facets of how Reiki works is so deeply rooted in in building resilience in the nervous system and regulating the nervous system. Which is what I taught to trauma survivors. You know, my work was in helping people understand when trauma happens, how does the nervous system respond to explain, you know, people's reactions and responses and and give them permission to, you know, start to notice those things and let themselves off the hook and and dissolve some of that shame that comes with the the response to trauma. And so it was like speaking the same language at different sides of the coin and Yeah, I like to say I fell down a rabbit hole and just still haven't come up for air and just find more and more tunnels to go down. and somehow ended up calling myself a witch many years later. So Monica Hay: I love it. Yeah. It's funny because I feel like I meet I meet a lot of people who are skeptical in the writing world, but I also meet a lot of people who are very witchy. Molly Donlan: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And the skeptics, I love me a skeptic. You know, I'm I think everybody starts their life journey in very different places and I I totally understand where people are coming from. But I always when I meet somebody who's witchy, there's always like this immediate like, Yes. Molly Donlan: Yeah, yeah. Monica Hay: It's like understanding that I can share with them because it does feel like you can open a different level of yourself with them that you can't open with somebody who's more of a skeptic. Molly Donlan: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: For me at least. I but I love that. And how long did it take you from that experience to having your podcast with Madison? Molly Donlan: Let's see, we started the podcast. We started in twenty three. And that Monica Hay: Okay. Molly Donlan: first experience with Reiki was in twenty sixteen. So seven years? Monica Hay: Okay. Quite a few years. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: Yeah. Nice. Two twenty sixteen. Molly Donlan: Mm. Monica Hay: I should still think about anyway, won't go into that. okay, I'm curious, what was your creative process like while writing mundane magic? Molly Donlan: Yeah, I it's interesting writing a book as a person with ADHD. And I'm I'm feeling this now as I'm like writing my second book. I'm like, what was my process? How did it work? but I I I first of all, when I was in the process of querying different publishers and knowing that I wanted to write a book, I read all the books about how to write a book. You know, I read Stephen King's memoir on writing. one of my favorites is called Write a Must Read. That was a really good book for me. And there's a quote in it that's repeated over and over that says, A book is not about something, a book is for someone. And so that was sort Monica Hay: Mm. Molly Donlan: of like rattling in my head was like, okay, even if I get lost in the writing process or feel stuck, I always had a very clear vision of who mundane magic was for. Who's for the person who feels like their to-do list is too long to fit their spiritual or magical practice into their life, or they kind of fall off and fall back on. And when life gets tough, they lose the threads of their practice. And so I said, okay, as long as I stay really clear on that person and speak to that person, I can overcome any obstacle. I am Monica Hay: Mm. Molly Donlan: also that person. So Mundane Magic was an extremely collaborative process between me and my ADHD and my community and their ADHD. So you know, it was born out of a series that I was doing on Instagram already about turning different chores and tasks in the home into, you know, spiritual, magical, mindfulness practices, whatever words you want to use. And for me when I was going through the the process of like finding an agent, writing my proposal, everything, that was all bared open. I was just very transparent about that process through the podcast and through Instagram especially. And so when I was writing my manuscript, I would go on Instagram and I'd say, okay, I'm in the living room chapter of writing this week. What chores and tasks are you avoiding? And I would get, you Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: know, maybe a hundred or so comments and I would copy paste every single comment into my outline and I wrote a spell for every single one. And then I practiced it on my own ADHD. So if I was not willing to do the thing I was writing, I said that's too high. It's not, it's not the bar is not low enough. and then for the things I couldn't do, you know, I don't have someone was like Cleaning the parrot cage. And I was like, okay, I Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: gotta find someone with a parrot. So I would send, you know, that section to one of my graduates, my Reiki training graduates. And I just said, you know, can you first of all let me know what are all the chores and tasks you have to do with your parrot? Let me write one for each of them, send it to you, tell me your thoughts, try it. And, you know, the kids' room chapter, I sent it to a bunch of parents that I know that have different ages of kids. And I was like, I want your feedback, but I want your kids' feedback. And then it was things I was like, I had to learn how to clean a fireplace. It was like I had to call my friend with a cat and be like, hey, can I come scoop your litter box and like film a video about it and just see what the response is? and so it was this very collaborative experience. And I think that's why the book has been so successful is, you know, I I remember when I first announced the book, someone made a comment that said You know, obviously the tagline is a lazy witch's guide. And I use that word lazy very intentionally because I think reclaiming that word is really important, especially if you're neurodivergent, you're always gonna feel like you're not doing enough. And that is not our voice. That's usually a voice from outside. And so laziness is just resting. And why why is that bad? but I remember getting a comment from someone saying I just bought a book that was for lazy witches and it wasn't lazy enough for me and it actually made me feel like shit. And so I said, you're gonna love this book. It's the simplicity Monica Hay: Nice. Molly Donlan: is where the magic is and the easiness to and the accessibility of being able to approach whether you just flip open the book and find a random chore or task is what I wanted. and that was who I was writing for. So Yeah, very collaborative process, very transparent process. I wanted people to be really bought into the journey of it so that they could really see themselves in the end product. Monica Hay: I love that. I love that because a lot of writers are very private in their practice, which is totally fine. It works for plenty of people. Molly Donlan: Hmm. Yeah. Monica Hay: But I also think it's really cool when people have their process so clear to people outs outside of them and into the world. I think that's a very special thing. I just interviewed somebody who has a snail mail club. And I know. I love them Molly Donlan: I love snail mail clubs. Monica Hay: too. And she She's got the idea for it last year. And within two weeks, she'd already gotten her first snail mill club out. And she's like, Yeah, I am learning to write through my snail mill club. Like, this is my first writing experience. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: And I started writing short stories and sending them out. And this is like I'm it's like publicly learning. And for some people, Molly Donlan: man. Monica Hay: that makes her skin crawl. And for some people, it works really well. Yeah. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Yeah. It's that, you know, I've learned with my ADHD, I need to hold my feet to the fire. And I'm not great at holding my own feet to the fire. So I need to publicly hold my feet to the fire. And it has worked out well for me so far, but I totally respect the people like I was a theater kid, so I'm like, give me a spotlight and a stage and I will Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: thrive. But I totally respect the like, you know, my my podcast co-host Madison, she's writing her book right now. about grief magic and she's very private about the process. And I totally respect that too. She's like, you know, much more introverted than I am. And her process is just as valid. So I think it's I think for me the process is about finding what works for you rather than making the writing process a performance that you think you need to do based on other people's shoulds and shouldn'ts. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah, I am curious. You talk you have your this quote in your book that I'm obsessed with. two minutes a day is more effective than sixty minutes once a month. I'd love Molly Donlan: Mm. Monica Hay: for us to elaborate on this because I'm obsessed with this quote. Tell me a Molly Donlan: Yeah. Yeah. Monica Hay: little bit about this quote. Molly Donlan: Yeah, I mean, it goes back to what we were talking about where, you know, getting started is the hardest part. And I mean, it whether we look at magic or we look at just mundane practices of life, I mean, if you wanted to keep your kitchen cleaner, what would be more effective? Once a month, deep cleaning it for 60 minutes, then not touching it the other 29 to 30 days? Or after every meal putting two dishes in the dishwasher or cleaning up for two minutes after each meal, right? Like we can clearly see that. Or if you wanted to drink more water, right? Like, do you take sips and have a water bottle throughout your day? Or once a month do you take the month's equivalent of eight glasses of water a day and you just chug it, right? We know this. And it's like so ridiculous to even posit those things together. And yet when it comes to Practices that are magical, that are spiritual, that are self-care even, it feels like we have to make a big to-do in order for it to count, right? I gotta do my big, elaborate full moon ritual, bring all my crystals out and all my candles and but that just creates unnecessary friction. And I'm not saying throw the deep clean out the window or throw the big elaborate ritual out the window, but don't make that the baseline. Don't make that the line for success. Right. Because on the days that you feel like shit and you have no time, that's when you need your practice the most. And so we need to create that practice in a way that it will fit our lives rather than trying to fit our lives around the practice. Because the truth is your to-do list is already long enough. And when we have a practice that needs to be big, it becomes one more thing that we punch to the bottom of the to-do list and then we've Push off and then we feel bad, and then we feel like I need to do twice as much for it to count. And then we just never do it. And so the idea of two minutes a day is basically, you know, a mixture of habit psychology, right? The easier it is to get started, the more likely you are to combine the habit, but also neuroscience, right? We Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: we know. From the research, that when it comes to building resilience in your nervous system, aka your ability to let stress wash over you rather than it, you know, becoming this tiger that you have to fight or run from or you freeze because you're just so stressed out. And in that survival response, less more often actually builds resilience in your nervous system more than a big long meditative session every once in a while or whatever it. insert meditation session with whatever nervous system regulation you prefer. and also magic, right? If we can start to weave magic and our spiritual practice into our everyday lives, then we start to see magic in these little pockets, like little micro moments of magic and mindfulness throughout our day, start to create more and more and more space for magic to exist. And I think that's that's really what mundane magic is all about. Monica Hay: Yeah. I love that you and Madison have the magic moment part of your podcast where you talk about what was your magic moment because it's a really a way of reflecting on the good things in your life. Molly Donlan: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And it really shows what you're talking about, those synchronicities and those magical moments that you might not notice if you don't look, right? Molly Donlan: Yeah. Yeah. Or if you're too stressed out, right? Like if your brain thinks Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: you're being chased by a tiger, you're not gonna see those moments. You've you s physiologically Monica Hay: Yep, exactly. Molly Donlan: can't. Monica Hay: Yeah, I am very curious. You talked about how in in the book, I think you mentioned that sometimes writer's block can be a nervous system state. I'm very curious. You're talking about the hab you know, habits, neuroscience. Can you tell me a little bit about the nervous system state that we might experience when it comes to writer's block? Molly Donlan: my gosh. Yes, my favorite thing ever. I've been doing like a a keynote for a lot of different entrepreneur groups. I call it how to stay creative when your mortgage is on the line because it's literally it it always comes down to the nervous system. So you have two sides to this nervous system. You have your sympathetic, that's your fight, flight, freeze response. That's the part of you that doesn't know the difference between a tiger chasing you. And looking at a blank page and ticking down the days before your deadline, or the fear of what are people gonna think? What are the reviews gonna say when you're still on your first draft? Right. Those are all tigers to your brain. Your brain literally has not evolved past the the the times when we were literally being chased by saber-toothed tigers and like gathering berries to stay alive. You know, it still has that wiring. And your other side of your nervous system is your parasympathetic. So that's your rest, restore, and heal response. When you're in the sympathetic, when your brain thinks you're being chased by a tiger, all of your resources go towards keeping you alive. So your memory, your concentration, your focus are impaired, your pain receptors are affected. So you feel more pain, tension, inflammation in the body. Your mouth creates less saliva and your digestive system slows down. Your immune system is impacted. Literally everything. starts to re-orient itself to keeping you alive. And so think about it this way. If there was literally a tiger in your room right now, about to pounce on you and eat you, you would not be able to put together a plot, come up with a beautiful metaphor or analogy, right? Like you would not be able to write. You would be getting the hell out of there fighting for your life or you would be like playing dead and hoping they move on to fresher prey. And so a lot of times our response to a creative block is we try to fight it. We try to push through it. We go, my God, who am I to be a writer if I can't even sit down and write a thousand words every day like Stephen King tells me I should. Ugh, why can't I get my ADHD on board with this? Right. Like that deadline is looming. What am I going to do? I'm so behind. Blah blah blah. All that self-talk. Is a tiger to your brain. That's that fight response internalized. Or we do the thing that I I am no I am no saint when it comes to this. The other day I was like avoiding working on my manuscript and instead wrote a book proposal for a completely different topic, right? Like that's your flight response. This running away from one thing and focusing on something else, right? Or I just sit and I stare at the blank page and I just watch my little mouse like just do nothing. That's that freeze response. And Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: so the idea of fighting a creative block or pushing past resistance is a fallacy. It just gets us more stuck. Instead, we need to prioritize safety. What is the fear coming up? How can I help quiet that tiger? How can I reassure my system that everything's okay? Right. Like the this we're safe right now. You know, we don't have Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: to worry about those things. And then all of a sudden you find that creativity switches back on. All of that energy that went towards survival shifts back to equilibrium and Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: we can access the creative side of our brain again. You can't do that if there's Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: a tiger afoot. Monica Hay: Yeah. I'm curious, what do you do to help create some safety in your process? Molly Donlan: For me, it's all about space. Space, space, space. I am the type of person I was wired from birth, you know, theater kid. So I was going straight from school to theater to my part-time job to going home and rehearsing lines or prepping for an audition, then going to school and repeating. So I'm someone that my wiring is back to back to back to back to back everything, you know, podcast interview, one on one session, you know, team meeting, email, e you know, like no sleep, like gym. repeat whatever that meme is. and so for me, that is my tiger response is Monica Hay: Mm. Molly Donlan: book myself solid so I don't have to sit with the silence, which is a tiger in my wiring. and so for me, I have to create space. I have to build out like I found with mundane magic, I took every Friday off while I was writing my manuscript and I called it fuck around Friday. And Fuck around Friday had no word count goal. It was just, I'm gonna write today and I have the whole day to do it. Some days I woke up on fuck around Friday and I wrote the entire day through. Some days I was like, okay, I'll go for a walk or I'll get a coffee or I'll watch some reality TV and then I'll have my laptop open and I'll kind of pluck away at some things. But it was just Fridays are my day where I have all the space for everything to come through. And it was like, what do I need? You know, if I woke up and I felt blocked, it was like, okay, where's the fear? Let's move it out of the body. Monica Hay: Mm. Molly Donlan: Let's take a walk or let's meditate or let's go to a yoga class or let's sit and have a meal because sometimes my brain is just like I can't write because I'm hungry, because my ADHD makes making a meal hard. or some days I had to clean my house and then the inspiration would come while I'm cleaning, you know. So yeah, for me the answer is always space, always creating more space than I necessarily think I need so that Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: the ideas can drop in so that I don't have that rush behind me. Monica Hay: I love that. Yeah, it's funny. I think what has helped me, because I also really struggle to feed myself. LOL, sorry, husband. He cooks most of the food. Molly Donlan: Same. Monica Hay: I can cook. I just have to have a recipe. I don't I don't love it. Not gonna lie. The steps involved, Molly Donlan: I hate cooking. It is yeah. So many steps. Monica Hay: the chopping, the God. Anyway. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: Yeah. So it's funny for me, I've had to, and this will sound very controversial to people who listen to this. Just hear me out. I have accepted that writing requires suffering. And I don't mean Molly Donlan: Ooh. Monica Hay: like I'm a drunk who's miserable. I don't mean like the artist suffering type. That's not what I mean at all. I hate that myth. What I mean is that I have to be okay with facing difficult emotions. A Molly Donlan: Yes. Monica Hay: lot of self doubt that comes up when I show up to write, and I'm like, my God, like. I can't do this. Like when I was a kid as an ADHD, I didn't, I wasn't diagnosed till I 29. And I was the stupid kid. I was my my brother was valedictorian, very smart. I was the stupid little kid who didn't know what she was doing, didn't know how to study. The only thing I was really good at was writing. And Molly Donlan: Hm. Monica Hay: now that I'm older, my brain is like, Monica, why aren't you a best selling author? You failed at the only thing you're good at. What happened? Molly Donlan: Ha ha ha Monica Hay: And so I have these difficult emotions I have to face when I show up to the page. And I've had to accept that that's be that's how being a human is. I think a lot of spiritual communities are like, we can rise above our emotions. And I'm like, we are human. We are having a human experience. And so Molly Donlan: Totally. Monica Hay: I've I've had to learn to sit with difficult emotions because I have I tried to shove them away for many years and I've had to accept that. When self doubt hits, I'm allowed to feel that feeling, process that feeling and move on from that. But I have to process it first and feel it first. Molly Donlan: Yeah, that's why you need space, right? You can't feel it if there's a tiger chasing you. On the flip side, Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: I I since Mundane Magic has been so successful working on my next book, the tiger is well, this draft isn't as good as your best seller. And I'm like, Monica Hay: Mm. Molly Donlan: Of course it's not. I spent two years on that. I know. I Monica Hay: You're like, this is a first draft or this is only a second draft. It's not done yet. Molly Donlan: know. I know. So like, you know, different tiger, but same, same approach, right? Like the fear before was like, what if this book sucks and nobody likes it? And now the fear is, well, what if in comparison this book sucks and nobody likes it? what if I've peaked, right? and Monica Hay: Right. Molly Donlan: it's it's, you know, those are tigers. And so it's like, okay, like we can sit with that, we can be with that, and we can write anyway. And if it does suck, we'll fix it in editing. Monica Hay: Yep. If it does sucks, we c we it's not like we can't edit the book. We have all these tools. That's the whole point of rev revision is to make it better. Yeah, Molly Donlan: Yep. Yep. Monica Hay: I love that. And I am very curious as we talked about the nervous system. I get this question a lot from writers I work with. How can someone tell the difference between I need to gently help my nervous system feel safe enough to begin so I can write today versus I actually just really need rest right now? Have Where do you feel like that line is? It's very tricky. Molly Donlan: Hmm. I think it comes in like the process of bringing your nervous system back into that baseline. Right. So I I I this is such a good question because I literally went through this last week. I was like, you know, I've just had one thing after another kind of this entire year. and have had zero space. And so I finally had space and I was like, perfect, I can write. And then it was like exhausted. You know? And I like to think of it as if you're driving a car on the highway and you're going, you know, the speed limit and then you slam on the brakes, all the shit from the back seat comes forward. And so you have to kind of sort through that before you can start the car again at whatever speed you're going at. And so if you're finding that, you know, when you're when you're bringing your nervous system back into that state of, Okay, there's no tiger here. And you feel just depleted, exhausted, fatigued, that is your body telling you, I have been going, going, going for too long. Right. And I also think too, the other thing we can pay attention to is the thoughts behind when we don't work on our writing. If the thoughts are guilt, shame, then we are not actually resting, right? Monica Hay: Exactly. Molly Donlan: We are actually exacerbating the problem. And so I I find it's harder to separate those thoughts when my nervous system is in that state of a tiger is chasing me. And so separating yourself from those thoughts, giving yourself actual permission to rest, sometimes for me. One thing that I will do if I'm ever like not sure, you know, because sometimes with the ADHD brain, it's like, am I avoiding? Is my nervous system? Am I just tired? Like, what is it? Is I will literally sit down on the couch with my laptop, have my manuscript open, zero expectations. I will put on like some trashy reality TV that like does not require any brain power for me to consume. And I will just tinker. I'll just tinker, just play around. Maybe I just write a word. Maybe maybe I do a little rearranging. Maybe it's a little, but I'm just like with my work. I'm with my work here. and for me, that can help to quiet some of that shame and that guilt. because Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: I'm here, I'm with it. I don't, you know, it's not one of those where I'm sitting down and I'm setting the goal of 2,000 words or whatever. I'm just sitting with it. And often for me, that will start the the creative juices, or it will become abundantly clear that I don't have. I don't have the energy in me today. And so, okay, I Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: I did my work. I I opened it. I was in there for however long. Like it could be, you know, one episode of Vanderpomp Rules is usually my go-to. Next thing you know, I've watched a season and I've written a whole chapter, right? or I'm just like, I can't do it. I'm I it's not it's not in me today. And so without shame, without blame, I close that laptop and I just I let myself rest. and I think it's, you know, giving yourself that permission to not perform perfectly every time you sit down to write. Monica Hay: I love that. It's funny you're talking about when your body is like, I'm stopping. I was it June. I had this launch back in February. I used to run a matchmaking program for writers where I would match writers with a critique partner Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: or writing friend. And I was done with done with it in June. I kid you not. I started like the day that I was done, my body was like, Okay, we're done and I had no energy for like three weeks probably, if not longer. And I just rotted and watched Outlander. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Well, like that's the thing, right? Like if you're it a lot of times I give the example of if you've ever been really burnt out at work and then you take a vacation and you get sick, that's because Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: when again, like if we're in that sympathetic nervous system response for a prolonged period of time, your immune system is impacted by it. So of course you're gonna feel fatigued. Of course you're gonna feel sick. Of course you're not gonna feel like yourself when you finally do stop. You have a bunch of catching up to do. Your body's like repairing shit. It's like trying to jump on a trampoline that has a bunch of holes in it. You've got to patch it up before you can really get some air. Monica Hay: Yep. Yeah, I think most of us don't know how to do that to actually rest. Because our society doesn't build that. That's why you need Monday magic. I love it. I Molly Donlan: And that's that's why you need mundane magic. That's why I wrote the book. Monica Hay: love it. I'm curious, are there particular kinds of Monday magic or ritual that you think lend themselves well to writing or creativity, like candles, Molly Donlan: Hm. Monica Hay: tarot, cleansing, elements, something else? Molly Donlan: Yes. Yes. yeah. I love a I love a spell candle for writing. there's something about, you know, lighting a candle, s starting the process, whether it's tinkering or whether you're sitting down for like a writing block or whatever the case may be, having that candle where you set the intention of you know, however you want to come into that writing space. So whether it's inspiration or motivation or for me, it's always like centered around my intention of who I'm writing it for and how I want them how I want them to feel when they when they pick up the work. Having a candle like that, there's actually some cool research that shows that if you ritualize a task, the anxiety of the task actually lowers and that ritual doesn't have to have any meaning behind it. and so Even if you just light a candle and there's no intention, there's no nothing behind it, that alone, having that as your ritual can be really powerful in helping shift your nervous system. The other one I really love is using tarot. So this is my way of overcoming a creative sticking point when I'm writing is I sit down and I'm like, okay, say I'm looking at my manuscript and I'm like, I really know how to answer this question, or I don't really know where to go from here, or if you're writing a novel, right? Like, I don't really know what what should come next or what should the character say? Grab your tarot deck and set the intention of like, okay, what does my reader need here? Or what does this Monica Hay: Hmm. Molly Donlan: character need next? And then pull cards and do a reading for your work. Right. So I do this often Monica Hay: Love it. Molly Donlan: whenever I'm creating a new course, I will do like a spread for the journey of the person that's coming through the course from before they find it all the way to the end. and then you start to find, okay, what are the obstacles that are gonna pop up? What are the questions that are come gonna come through? You know, if if for example, just to play this out, right? Like say I'm I'm working on my manuscript and I pull a bunch of swords. Okay, I need more logic, I need more information. Maybe I pull in a study or cite a statistic. But say I do that same reading, I pull a bunch of cups, okay, I need to connect with the emotion, I need to help them Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: see. How this is playing out within them, right? say I pull, you know, the page card. The page is the learner. Okay. We need more information here. We need to understand, right? Or perhaps it's the magician. Okay, they need to embody, they need to know they have all the tools, right? So you can really get Monica Hay: Mm. Molly Donlan: into the nuance. And I think it adds such a depth to what you're writing, because then you start to get inside the head of the person who's gonna read it. And now it's not about you. Which then takes that fear Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: of what are people gonna think of me out of the picture. Like you've totally shifted into, okay, what do they need? What are they questioning? What are they asking through the lens of curiosity? It's r it's so fun. It's so powerful. And you don't need to be an expert of tarot to do this, right? Like it could be an Oracle card. It could be, you know, whatever Monica Hay: Love it. Molly Donlan: it is. I think just knowing for me, I always connect with like the the suits, right? Like swords are logic, mind, knowledge, cups are emotions, communication, wands are passion, right? Like our hyperfixations, our fire. Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: and then what am I missing? Pentacles are very like earthly, grounded in like the tangible in the home or in our finances or in our career. And so even just knowing that alone, you can kind Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: of start to suss out like, okay, what are these cards? Giving me here. Monica Hay: I love it. And I have to bring up, because you if if whoever is listening, you might have already seen this episode. We talked about Tarot for Creativity in an episode like I don't know when, maybe a few months ago. This was written by my friend Chelsea, who Molly Donlan: Cool. Okay. Monica Hay: is gonna visit me actually next week in Amsterdam. Highly recommend. It's so such Molly Donlan: I'm looking that book up. Monica Hay: a beautiful book, Tarot for Creativity. It's gorgeous, and she goes over Such beautiful stuff. Like she has prompts. She has really fun different things that you can try. Like design a poster, an object. Like she loves a a crafty thing, which I'm learning how to get craftier. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: Yeah. yeah, it's beautiful, beautiful book. Highly recommend. Tarot for creativity. Molly Donlan: Love that. Monica Hay: And yeah, I love, I think we were talking about candles. I wanted to say something really funny. So I love candles too. But my cat is an idiot and will just walk over them Molly Donlan: no. Monica Hay: and get himself caught on fire. Molly Donlan: yeah. You gotta get one of those hurricane glasses that will go around it. Monica Hay: Yeah, I could do that. I yeah, it just cracks me up because I'm like, candles and I'm like, Sky is gonna get his little fucking fluff in there and then yeah. Molly Donlan: I know. Monica Hay: So I I've been in using it's so it's he's he's he's my baby. He's eighteen now Molly Donlan: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: and getting old. but I love this. Do you okay. I feel like you would be okay with candles that are electric. Molly Donlan: my god, yeah. it could be a freaking Monica Hay: Okay. Molly Donlan: nightlight for all I care. Monica Hay: Love it. Love it. And that is that's what it means to believe in mundane magic. To just let it be easy. Yep. I love it. Molly Donlan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Use what you have. Monica Hay: I am curious. You talked about ritual. And I feel like there's two sides of the coin with ritual. Cause some of my writers that I work with love rituals. They find that it helps them open their practice. some of my writers actually find ritual really daunting and they make it. It makes it so they feel like they're putting a lot of pressure on their practice and it makes it feel too precious because they're like opening this like, my God, this is wh this whole ritual I'm doing and now I have perfectionism and then r resistance gets worse. I'm curious, Molly Donlan: Hmm. Monica Hay: how do how do we balance between ritual feeling like it's homework because of it opening this big thing versus ritual that actually creates something that's spacious? Molly Donlan: Yeah, I love that. And I think it comes down to the definition of ritual, right? you mentioned what helps you brush your teeth is you first wash your face because that feels easy to you. And then that helps you build the momentum to do the harder thing. And then eventually, you know, you got the wash your face, then you brush your teeth, then you care for your curls, right? That is a ritual. You do it, you know, in that process, in that order, right? And so A ritual doesn't have to be like a okay, I'm gonna sit in meditation for ten minutes and channel my guides and whatever. Like it could be as simple as I have a lamp on my desk. It's a beautiful like knockoff Tiffany blue stained glass lamp, you know, it's like a it's it's adorable. When I sit down to work and I'm locking into focus, I take a deep breath and I turn on that lamp. And when I clock out for the day, because I work from home, I Take a deep breath, I clear, you know, I clock out mentally, and then I turn off the lamp and I leave my office and I shut the door. That is a ritual. That doesn't feel daunting. That doesn't feel, you know, my God, I have to do all these steps. Right. Like I guarantee any writer already has a ritual they do before writing, right? Even before I was in the magic realm when I was I was studying to be a personal trainer at one point. And every time I sat down to study, I went to the same coffee shop on the Saturdays. I got, you know, my cinnamon bun and I got my oat milk latte and I sat down and I studied. And then I cleaned my plates up, I said goodbye, and I left. That was my ritual, right? Monica Hay: Love it. Molly Donlan: And so if you're a writer, you always already have a ritual. Maybe it's your favorite pen, maybe it's your favorite notebook, maybe it's your favorite space to write. And so it's just about adding a little bit of awareness to that and intentionality to that. Right. Monica Hay: Yeah. Molly Donlan: Like some days my rituals, I feel really stuck and my ritual has to be bigger. I'm pulling the cards and I'm lighting the spell candle and all of that. And some days I just feel ready to rock and roll and I just turn my lamp on and I go. And so you get to decide what that ritual is and what that looks like. But it's really just about getting yourself in the headspace. Right. If Monica Hay: I love that. Molly Donlan: yeah, and and just to kind of hammer it home, if you're sitting there and you're a writer and you're like, I don't think I have a ritual, you have a ritual for showering. I guarantee it. Everyone who showers, you do probably the same order of operations, right? Like maybe some people they wash their face first, some t some people do their body first, some people do their hair, right? Like You I know I notice myself, like I wash the same arm in the same order. Like I wa I start with my maybe this is my OCD, but I start with my left arm, I go to my right arm, I start with my left leg, I go to my right leg. So you have rituals built into your entire day that you're not even aware of. I'm not asking you to build a whole thing. I'm asking you to just bring awareness to what you're already doing and decide, is this serving me? And if it is, continue doing it and just have your awareness with it. Monica Hay: I love it. Mine is I get stickers for my writing. That's my post writing ritual. Molly Donlan: my god, I love that. Little treat magic. We call that little treat magic. Monica Hay: Love stickers. Yes. Let me see. Let me see Okay. if you were designing a little spell or ritual for a writer who's feeling creatively blocked, what would you have them do? Molly Donlan: Okay. I would I would probably start with some kind of movement. So a walk outside, or you know, if you're in a space, I live in Maine, USA, so outside is inaccessible for most of the year. I will take a walk around my house, or you know, you could go to the library and take a walk before you sit down and write. But some sort of movement that gets you literally out of your head. And there's no no purpose behind this outside of just like just move some of the energy in the body. If some people like to do, you know, yoga or strength training or whatever, go to the gym. I don't care. Just move your body in some way, even if it's just shaking it out, right? In your chair. And then I would probably have some tangible representation of like I'm going to write now, whether that is a light you turn on, a candle you light, music that you play. I am a big fan of looping the Sims 2 soundtrack. I love using video game music because it's designed to suck you in and keep your focus there. So Yeah, whatever like game you have you find yourself lost in, if you have one of those, like I love the Stardew Valley soundtrack, the Sims 2 soundtrack, Animal Crossing, like all of those kind of cozy game soundtracks are really good. I know some writers they'll use Rainbow Road from Mario Kart, but I find that too stimulating. It distracts me. So putting on your same playlist or your same candle. I also love bringing in scent. So if you don't have a scented candle, I have a perfume that I've assigned to each of my books. And so I will literally spray that perfume on myself. And that will get me into the headspace of like, okay, this is this is who I am stepping into. So any of those like bringing in the senses, it could be again like it Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: could be a cup of coffee that you make every time that is made the same way, right? Like bringing in the sense of taste. There's some cool research around. People who take tests and they chew the same gum when they're studying versus when they take the test, they do better on the test. So it's just like getting your brain Monica Hay: Mm-hmm. Molly Donlan: to switch into writing mode through the senses. but I would keep it very simple. I would keep it like, you know, a little bit of movement, maybe it's two minutes, and then pick one's one sensory experience you're gonna tap into. And then let that be your ritual. And you can add, you can subtract, you can switch up, whatever you want to do. It's all about just like getting into that zone. Monica Hay: I love that. And this leads me to my next question. In your book, you talk a lot about clearing out or cleansing our spaces. I was shook when you talked about washing the walls. I was like, my God. And Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: you were you were talking about how energy gets stuck in these different spaces in your house. And I'm like, holy shit, I probably have so much energy stuck in different places. When what would it look like to have a cleanse of a creative practice, maybe after rejection or a burnout experience, or maybe after difficulty with our writing. What would that look like? Molly Donlan: Ooh, okay. I think the desk or the office, like what wherever you do your writing, that's that's where we start. I know for me, when I feel overwhelmed, when I feel rejection, when I feel like I'm behind in my writing, my desk is a holy hot mess, right? Like there's stuff everywhere. And I often do this exercise with creatives where you just set a timer for two minutes and you just Futs with your desk. Like just clean up, put the trash away, take the trash out, right? Like pick up all the for me, it's like always cups of different drinks are just all over my desk, right? Like put the things away that need to go away, the things that are, you know, kind of in your space that don't need to be there. And then just notice how you feel after. Like that's the biggest thing. I actually have a five-minute meditation. I call it my clutter crushing charm that I will give you the link to if you want to give it to your listeners. but it is literally just that. Like just, okay, let's feel how the space feels at the start and let's spend five minutes just kind of moving some of this energy and some of this clutter out and notice how you feel throughout the process and then after. It's so simple, but it makes such a big difference. Monica Hay: I love that. And I love that it it comes back to what you're saying that these things don't have to be these huge I'm gonna clean for five hours. It's like just take a few minutes to just do Molly Donlan: Yeah. Literally. Monica Hay: a little bit of cluttery clutter free cleaning, right? It's literally. Molly Donlan: Literally, like listeners right now, look at the timestamp that you're at on this podcast and clock it for two minutes and just clean your space while you listen and then put a comment and tell us how you feel two minutes later. Monica Hay: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah, I'm a big fan of the two minute rule. I'm like, can I just make this simple? I my bare minimum from my own writing practice is I show up for two minutes. For for a while it's two minutes. These these days it's five minutes 'cause I've upped it a tiny bit. But Molly Donlan: Whoa. Monica Hay: I that's all that's my job every day. Make sure you f show up for five minutes. And if I stay, awesome. There are some days when I'm like, I'm dead and I'm not gonna Molly Donlan: Yeah. Monica Hay: be able to stay. I'm gonna go sleep. Molly Donlan: Yeah, yeah. Monica Hay: Yep. I yeah, there's something very powerful about Tiny Habits. Have you heard of the Tiny Habits book by BJ Fogg? I can't get over his name. I'm sorry. I love his name so much. BJ Fogg. Molly Donlan: So good. So good. I have not read that one, but I everyone keeps ringing up to me. So I'm like, okay, clearly I need to add this to my TBR. Monica Hay: Well, it's what I really like. His his audiobook I appreciate because he spent years practicing to read it because he had a lot of issues with speaking as a child. And so it was something that he overcame and he he did for himself, which I think is really beautiful. So Molly Donlan: Aww. I love that. Monica Hay: I love that too. okay. Remind people where they can find you. Please talk up talk about your book. Talk about all the amazing things. Molly Donlan: Yeah, wherever you get books, you can find mundane magic in hardcover ebook or audiobook. I also narrated the audiobook. So if you like listening to me, yeah, you'll love that. and the audiobook also comes with the a PDF of the appendix. So the appendix is extremely thorough around different recipes and magical correspondences to things in your home. And I didn't want you to lose that if you're someone that likes to read with your ears. So you get that with the audiobook. and wherever you're listening to this podcast, you can find both of my podcast Demystify Magic or The Science of Reiki. If you're interested in learning more about the science side of spirituality and finding more tiny rituals that you can start to bring into your writing practice or into your life. Monica Hay: I love it. I rem I once took this with me to the grocery store, first of all, so I could look up the ingredients I wanted. And I also I Molly Donlan: I love that. Monica Hay: brought it with me to a witchy store in Amsterdam so I could also look up ingredients. Molly Donlan: Yes, it's so good, right? Like I wanted, I wrote the appendix to a place replace the stack of books that I usually like have to sort through for my practice. So Monica Hay: Yes. Molly Donlan: I always love to hear that people are like busting it out. I'm like, yes, that's why I wrote it. That's why it's so easy to find things. And it's like, so it has the I'm gonna brag about the appendix just for a second because Monica Hay: Please. Molly Donlan: I was told it could be its own book and I was like, no, no, no. I want this to be a one-stop. So it has the magical correspondences by the ingredients. So you can look up, you know, everything from basil to acorns to allspice to cayenne, et cetera, whatever you find in your house, in your kitchen, especially. But then I also wanted it to be something where you didn't have to go out and buy a bunch of things. So I flipped the appendix. So then after that, you can look up by intention and see all of the Monica Hay: Mm. Molly Donlan: different ingredients you can use. So for instance, if you don't have cinnamon and you want to do an abundance ritual, you can look up abundance and it will show you cinnamon, basil, almonds, like all of the different things that you can use instead. And so there's really like no excuse to get started. Monica Hay: Love it. I love it. Well, thank you, Molly. This has been so lovely. Very, very grateful that you came Molly Donlan: Thank you. What a joy. Monica Hay: on. And you guys should grab her book. It's amazing. It's fun. And I I low key feel very when I saw the quote on the two minutes is better. I have an episode, if you guys have listened to it, it's I think the second episode, where I make the case for half assing your writing. Molly Donlan: Yes. Yes. I love it. my God. Yes. Kindred spirits right here. I am all about half ass, half ass your life. You'll enjoy it more. Monica Hay: Yes. Half ass everything because I think one of the most dangerous things we can say to people is that anything worth doing is worth doing right. Sure, for maybe a doctor, okay? Somebody who's doing brain surgery, sure. Are we doing brain Molly Donlan: Yes, absolutely. Monica Hay: surgery when we show up to write our books? No. Molly Donlan: No, no, it's not that serious, right? Yeah, yeah. Monica Hay: Serious. You can always revise it later. Yes. Molly Donlan: And I think also remember that like nobody's writing for the paycheck. You're probably writing because you love writing. So let yourself enjoy the process. Like, what do you need to Monica Hay: Exactly. Molly Donlan: enjoy it again? That is the magic, right? Monica Hay: Exactly. Needs need to read some some smuddy books. Molly Donlan: Hm. I'm all for it. Hey. I'm not against it. Monica Hay: On that note, thanks for listening, guys. Molly Donlan: Bye.