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Like a spy novel: How Iran orchestrated attacks on Australian shores · Inside Politics

0:00
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:03
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. It's Friday, August 29th.
0:09
S1: This week, Canberra turned into a John le Carré novel
0:12
S1: with the stunning revelation from the head of ASIO, Mike Burgess,
0:16
S1: that the state of Iran directed at least two attacks
0:19
S1: on Australia's Jewish community on Australian soil. As a consequence,
0:23
S1: Prime Minister Anthony Albanese expelled the Iranian ambassador from the country.
0:28
S1: Here to discuss these dramatic developments, we have our chief
0:31
S1: political correspondent, Paul Circle, and our national security correspondent, Matthew Knott.
0:39
S1: We must acknowledge briefly, but importantly, that Paul Circle won
0:43
S1: an important journalistic award this week at the Midwinter Ball,
0:48
S1: which was the night before this podcast is being filmed.
0:52
S1: And yet he looked so fresh faced. But Paul won
0:55
S1: Press Gallery Journalist of the year, which was extremely well deserved.
0:58
S2: Thank you. I've put eyeshadow under the bags in my eyes.
1:01
S3: I'm just here with an IV drip and to feed
1:04
S3: Paul Baraka.
1:06
S1: It's above and beyond working with the handicapped this morning. Um, Matt,
1:09
S1: tell us all about this. How did we first find
1:12
S1: out about this extraordinary news that basically, Iran has been
1:15
S1: directing attacks on Australian soil?
1:18
S3: Well, this was a very sudden and dramatic announcement to
1:24
S3: give a bit of an idea of the chaos, uh,
1:27
S3: the chaotic way that things work here in Canberra. Uh,
1:31
S3: I was at a lunch at the National Press Club
1:34
S3: with a group of fellow foreign policy journalists, with a
1:37
S3: visiting official from Taiwan. Uh, the food was just about
1:41
S3: to be served. He was talking about trade and relations
1:44
S3: with China. All our phones started exploding with the fact
1:48
S3: there would be a big announcement. Something to do with Israel. Uh,
1:52
S3: our minds initially went to. Is this something to do
1:54
S3: with sanctions, perhaps? Uh, and then, uh, before the Prime
1:59
S3: Minister and Foreign minister and Home Affairs minister got up,
2:03
S3: it became clear, no, it's to do with Iran. And
2:07
S3: the Prime minister got up in the courtyard and made
2:10
S3: the very important announcement.
2:13
S4: Since the terrible events of October 7th, 2023, we have
2:17
S4: witnessed a number of appalling anti-Semitic attacks against Australia's Jewish community.
2:24
S4: I have made it clear that these sorts of incidents
2:27
S4: have no place in Australia, and that I wanted ASIO
2:30
S4: and the AFP to investigate as a priority. ASIO has
2:35
S4: now gathered enough credible intelligence to reach a deeply disturbing
2:39
S4: conclusion that the Iranian government directed at least two of
2:44
S4: these attacks Iran.
2:46
S3: The biggest one was the attack on the synagogue in Melbourne.
2:50
S3: This was a big deal in December, really turbocharged the
2:55
S3: debate about anti-Semitism in Australia. It led to attacks on
2:59
S3: Albanese from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The other one
3:04
S3: that ASIO has identified is of a Jewish deli in Sydney.
3:09
S3: They say many more could also have been wrapped up
3:13
S3: in this. It's had major diplomatic consequences. Australia's embassy in
3:19
S3: Tehran has been shut down and there was a very
3:23
S3: secretive operation to get our diplomats from there out safely.
3:28
S3: The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps has been listed as a
3:32
S3: terrorist organisation. So this is a major national security diplomatic event.
3:38
S1: Paul, the political response from Albanese, from Penny Wong was
3:42
S1: immediate and it was strong.
3:45
S5: There is no doubt that these extraordinary and dangerous acts
3:49
S5: of aggression, orchestrated by a foreign nation on Australian soil
3:54
S5: have crossed a line, and that is why we have
3:58
S5: declared Iran's ambassador to Australia persona non grata, as well
4:02
S5: as three other Iranian officials, and they will have seven
4:04
S5: days to leave the country.
4:07
S1: This is so the Iranian ambassador to Australia, Ahmad Sadeghi,
4:10
S1: was expelled, although he's got a few days to pack
4:12
S1: up his gear and go. Give us a sense of
4:14
S1: how big of a deal that is.
4:16
S2: It's a huge deal. As you mentioned, I think not-I
4:18
S2: just mentioned ambassadors don't get expelled every day. The last
4:21
S2: one was in 1941. It was the Japanese ambassador, and
4:24
S2: it was in response to Pearl Harbor. So this is
4:26
S2: the first time an ambassador has been expelled for wrongdoing
4:31
S2: that's actually happened on our shores. There were calls from
4:35
S2: the opposition last term to expel this ambassador for various
4:39
S2: contentious comments about Israel. He's expressed views that are widely
4:43
S2: viewed to be anti-Semitic. Previously, he's praised the Hezbollah leader,
4:49
S2: Hassan Nasrallah, who was killed by Israel, I think, last year.
4:52
S2: He's a kind of radical Islamic autocrat, mouthpiece in Australia
4:56
S2: who has been, um, yeah, the subject of controversy before,
4:59
S2: but the government's always resisted those calls to expel him
5:02
S2: because there's been a view that, given the US doesn't
5:05
S2: have diplomatic relations with Iran, we're often used as a
5:08
S2: back channel in the same way as the Swiss are.
5:11
S2: And DFAT has always been of the view that that's
5:13
S2: important and we should keep up diplomatic relations even though
5:16
S2: we don't agree with these guys on much. So it
5:18
S2: was a big and decisive step that the government took.
5:20
S2: And it was it was dramatic, and it was a
5:22
S2: reversal that was justified by the gravity of what occurred.
5:26
S1: Yeah. And of course, I think the government has actually
5:29
S1: said that they don't think the ambassador himself was involved
5:31
S1: or even perhaps aware of the operations. Let's just talk
5:35
S1: about the operations themselves, because it's so fascinating. It's it
5:38
S1: is something like something from a spy novel, because nobody's
5:41
S1: saying that Iranian officials from the embassy were themselves on
5:44
S1: the ground firebombing synagogues or Jewish owned businesses, but rather
5:48
S1: they sort of contracted like a sort of chain of criminals,
5:52
S1: some of whom were more inept than others, to do
5:56
S1: these jobs. Matt, just tell us a little bit about
6:00
S1: the complexity of that chain.
6:02
S3: Yes. And I think we'd have to say I think
6:04
S3: there's more to be told about this. I don't know
6:07
S3: if books will be. It's it's worth it's.
6:09
S1: Worth a book. I think it's fascinating.
6:11
S3: TV series will be made about this. Uh asio's a
6:14
S3: very secretive organisation. But details do come out over time,
6:19
S3: particularly when things like this have been successful and this
6:24
S3: is being seen within the Australian system as a success
6:28
S3: for our intelligence agencies. It took a while, but they
6:31
S3: seem to have gotten to the bottom of this, and
6:33
S3: it was clearly pretty well disguised. The fact that it's taken, say,
6:37
S3: from the synagogue attack from December to now, to definitively
6:43
S3: figure out that Iran was behind this, they'd clearly been
6:47
S3: covering their tracks pretty well. Yeah. So there's still more
6:51
S3: to learn about the way this entire thing played out.
6:55
S3: But at the ground level, there was a lot of
6:58
S3: chaos and and ineptness in the way this was carried out.
7:02
S3: We've had details coming out in court in Sydney this
7:05
S3: week about the ineptitude of some of those allegedly involved
7:10
S3: in the attack on the Jewish deli there. From what
7:13
S3: we're learning, are from court cases. You know, they went
7:16
S3: to the wrong place initially to attack that they went
7:19
S3: to twice.
7:20
S1: They did. They did sort of botched attempts on the
7:22
S1: wrong business.
7:23
S3: Several botched attempts. They didn't know where they were going.
7:26
S3: They went to a brewery with a similar name rather
7:29
S3: than to the right deli. Um, one of the the
7:32
S3: people involved was using the name James Bond on Signal
7:36
S3: to describe himself. Yeah. And you can see from text
7:40
S3: messages that have come out that it was all very
7:42
S3: chaotic and shambolic.
7:44
S1: Paul, you wrote a story about another criminal, Kazem Hamad,
7:48
S1: who is known to Australian authorities, as they say, who's
7:51
S1: a sort of a tobacco kingpin in the Tobacco wars,
7:55
S1: particularly in Melbourne. And he's suspected of conspiring more directly
7:59
S1: with Iranian spies to carry out some some of these attacks.
8:02
S1: Tell us about him.
8:03
S2: Yeah. Kaz Hamad is a is a guy who's been
8:07
S2: written about by my colleagues at the age. Our crime
8:09
S2: reporters a lot over the past couple of years. There's
8:11
S2: been this campaign of firebombing tobacconists. I think there's been
8:15
S2: about 140 Firebombings in the past 18 months or something.
8:18
S2: It's quite extraordinary. And what's going on there is there's
8:21
S2: a turf war between rival gangs to control the tobacco shops,
8:24
S2: because there's such a roaring trade for black market cigarettes,
8:27
S2: because of how expensive normal cigarettes are, and also illegal vapes.
8:31
S2: And so it's a lucrative business. But there's also a
8:34
S2: contest to be the gang that provides protection for these
8:38
S2: illicit tobacco shops, because they get paid to do protection
8:42
S2: to protect them against other gangs. Kaz Hamad is a
8:45
S2: guy who's been accused of orchestrating this firebombing campaign to
8:49
S2: win the turf war. He lives in the Middle East.
8:52
S2: He's been based in Iraq and some other places from
8:55
S2: about January. And this was reported by our investigative colleague
8:59
S2: Nick McKenzie earlier this week. In January, authorities in Victoria.
9:02
S2: So I think a month after the attack, the authorities
9:07
S2: looked at ADUs and there was a lot of pressure
9:09
S2: at that time to make arrests quickly because there was
9:11
S2: such a huge political firestorm around that synagogue firebombing. And
9:16
S2: quite quickly, the AFP learnt who the perpetrators were in
9:19
S2: terms of the people who were actually in the car,
9:21
S2: who through the through the fire, they determined pretty quickly
9:23
S2: that they were young guys from the western suburbs with
9:26
S2: no clear motive, who looked like classic petty criminals. But
9:30
S2: the AFP didn't want to make arrests and look like
9:33
S2: they'd wrapped this up before publicly revealing and getting to
9:37
S2: the bottom of what they describe privately as the puppet masters. Yeah,
9:41
S2: they didn't want to put these kids on trial because
9:43
S2: no one would understand the motive. They wanted to get
9:45
S2: to the reason why they were asked to do this.
9:47
S2: Who was paying them? Yeah. And this took months and months.
9:50
S2: In January, there was the first suggestion from the AFP
9:53
S2: that foreign actors might be involved. They didn't necessarily say
9:56
S2: foreign states. They just said there are potentially foreign elements
9:59
S2: here which are orchestrating these attacks. But it became clear
10:03
S2: over time that there was the use of encrypted apps
10:05
S2: where people from foreign countries were speaking to criminals in
10:10
S2: Australia using several different layers of middlemen. At some point,
10:16
S2: middlemen at some point, those associates are those people are
10:19
S2: known to the IRGC. It's unclear what at what point
10:22
S2: up the food chain. Those people know they are being
10:24
S2: directed by Iranian authorities. But right at the lowest point
10:28
S2: of the food chain, there are these petty criminals who
10:31
S2: use these new encrypted apps, which are effectively being described
10:35
S2: to me as like the Uber Eats of crime, where
10:39
S2: you log into this app, you can only get a
10:41
S2: link to the app if you're part of a criminal
10:42
S2: network and jobs come up for firebombings for drive by shootings,
10:47
S2: things of that nature. You don't know who is being, uh,
10:51
S2: who is offering you the money. You just know there's
10:53
S2: an encrypted link that will send you cash. You get
10:56
S2: told what the job is and you go and do
10:58
S2: the job. And so that creates this anonymized system where
11:01
S2: there is someone at the top trying to get a
11:03
S2: job done, but you're none the wiser as to who's
11:05
S2: directing you. And so the idea and this was reported
11:08
S2: by our colleague Nick McKenzie as to why Cass Hamad would,
11:12
S2: would want to take out these actions on behalf of
11:15
S2: the Iranian government or to assist them is because Iran
11:17
S2: has a lot of influence, obviously, both in in Iran
11:20
S2: but also across the Middle East. And if he's helping
11:23
S2: them run their foreign interference practices in Australia, they might
11:26
S2: give him safe harbor in the region and allow him
11:28
S2: to continue to run his crime empire free of any
11:31
S2: interference from Australian authorities.
11:33
S1: So ASIO has particularly said that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard
11:37
S1: Corps is responsible for this. So what is that organization, Matt?
11:41
S1: How are they related to the Islamic regime and the Ayatollah?
11:44
S3: Yeah, it's a fascinating and absolutely huge part of the
11:48
S3: Iranian system that doesn't have clear parallels in any way
11:52
S3: to Australia or what we'd be familiar with in now, uh, nations, uh,
11:58
S3: they're kind of a parallel, uh, military in some ways.
12:02
S3: So they have an estimated 150,000 troops, for example, and
12:07
S3: they have their own, uh, Navy and armed forces and weapons.
12:11
S3: And that's on top of the official, uh, Iranian military.
12:14
S3: But then there's more of a kind of psychological secret
12:18
S3: operations side to it in which, uh, people from the
12:22
S3: officials from the IRGC are responsible for terrorist attacks, essentially
12:27
S3: around the world. So people who follow them are not
12:30
S3: surprised at all by what has come out in Australia.
12:34
S3: It's interesting to them that Australia is being targeted, but
12:37
S3: this is very much the M.O. of the way they operate. Obviously,
12:42
S3: Iran and Israel are essentially sworn enemies. They're competing for
12:47
S3: dominance in the Middle East. Iran says that it wants
12:52
S3: to wipe Israel off the map and funds proxies, you know,
12:55
S3: attacking Israel. Israel has been bombing nuclear facilities in Iran,
13:02
S3: so Israeli targets are a common place for the IRGC
13:07
S3: around the world and Jewish sites as well. Like this.
13:11
S3: There's been assassination attempts, bombings of Israeli embassies all over
13:17
S3: the world, places like Thailand, Argentina, um, events in Europe, France,
13:22
S3: the United States. You know, Iran is believed to have
13:25
S3: been behind assassination attempts on Donald Trump. So there's a
13:29
S3: long history of this type of behavior, and now it's
13:32
S3: Australia that's experiencing it. And actually an ASIO director general,
13:37
S3: Mike Burgess, has for several years been listing Iran as
13:41
S3: one of the principal countries of concern for foreign interference,
13:46
S3: alongside China and Russia.
13:48
S2: And Kylie Moore-gilbert, who's the Australian who was captured in
13:52
S2: Iran for years, wrote in our papers earlier this week
13:54
S2: that when she was in jail, she was questioned by
13:56
S2: Iranians about synagogues and Jewish figures in Australia. There was
13:59
S2: a guy arrested in Berlin in January by German authorities
14:03
S2: who was believed to be spying for Iran, going around,
14:06
S2: finding Jewish sites. So this is happening. This is a live, uh,
14:11
S2: kind of systemic pattern of global anti-Semitism, which, I mean,
14:15
S2: there's been a narrative that's formed this week, which I've
14:18
S2: seen online in particular, which is, you know, along the
14:21
S2: lines of these revelations about Iran show that there is
14:24
S2: no anti-Semitism problem in Australia. And to I understand the
14:27
S2: argument to some extent, but if you're a Jewish person
14:29
S2: living in Australia and you're feeling as if there is
14:32
S2: this global, uh, kind of superpower that is determined to
14:37
S2: target Jews all across the world, does it make you
14:39
S2: feel any less safe?
14:40
S1: No, it's it's it's it's terrifying. It would be even
14:43
S1: more frightening, I think.
14:44
S3: No. And the Jewish community is saying essentially on this, uh,
14:47
S3: we warned you that Iran was a terrible actor. There
14:51
S3: are quotes from parliamentary inquiries from a few years ago
14:54
S3: in which there are people saying, we have security at
14:58
S3: Jewish sites because we're afraid of Iran.
15:01
S1: And the Iranian diaspora. Elements of it in Australia have
15:05
S1: have been saying the same thing, too, because they say
15:07
S1: that they've experienced harassment, um, from, um, from people representing
15:11
S1: the regime on Australian soil.
15:13
S2: So if it's the wrong word to describe Iran, by
15:15
S2: the way, they're not a superpower, but they are. They
15:17
S2: are a powerful state which has a very well funded
15:20
S2: network of global foreign interference.
15:23
S1: If it's not an obvious question, what is the strategic
15:26
S1: interest of Iran or the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps in
15:31
S1: these kinds of attacks in Australia? Is it to sow
15:34
S1: social disharmony within Australia or community disharmony, or is it
15:38
S1: just pure terrorism, the spreading of terror? Is it to
15:41
S1: advance Iran's interests in any kind of strategic or practical way?
15:44
S1: Like why would they why would they do this?
15:47
S3: Yeah, I've been speaking to experts about this. And look,
15:50
S3: there are there are different theories. Like as we said before,
15:53
S3: this isn't a new thing. Uh, Australia? Yeah, it's far away,
15:57
S3: but we're we're an important country, to be honest. We're
16:01
S3: a very close ally of the United States, which is
16:04
S3: another sworn enemy of Iran. We've traditionally been close to Israel.
16:08
S3: That's obviously been changing since the the war in Gaza.
16:12
S3: We have significant and influential Jewish and Iranian communities here.
16:17
S3: But why now and why in this way? There are
16:19
S3: a lot of different speculations about that and whether this
16:23
S3: was a smart strategy or not. I was speaking to
16:26
S3: one expert yesterday who was saying it's it's baffling on
16:29
S3: the surface because there was always the risk with something
16:32
S3: like this that attacks on Jewish sites, you know, would
16:35
S3: create more sympathy for the Jewish community.
16:38
S1: And heightened awareness of anti-Semitism and.
16:40
S3: Heightened awareness of anti-Semitism could create more sympathy for Israel,
16:44
S3: to the extent that people link the two in their minds.
16:47
S3: So there's a risk to it. Now, there's a lot
16:50
S3: of talk about the way, the way the Iranian government
16:54
S3: is working right now. I mean, they're in a very,
16:57
S3: very weakened state. You know, the way they've come under
17:00
S3: attack from Israel and the the US, they're in a
17:06
S3: pretty beleaguered economic state. Are they key proxies in the
17:10
S3: region have either been taken out or weakened. So say
17:14
S3: in the past year what's happened to Iran is really dramatic.
17:17
S3: They're absolutely on the back foot. Different factions competing for influence. Yeah.
17:24
S3: Some people I was speaking to would be saying, you know,
17:26
S3: this is the IRGC showing that we can cause some
17:29
S3: disruption in Australia. That is their M.O. is to foment
17:34
S3: chaos around the world. So if Australia is in a
17:37
S3: state of chaos with different elements of society fighting each other,
17:42
S3: that's a good thing. But exactly what the ultimate strategic
17:46
S3: rationale was for them. Uh, you know, about these specific incidents.
17:51
S3: We don't fully know that yet.
17:52
S1: Yeah. Um, I just want to ask quickly about the
17:55
S1: listing of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a terrorist organization,
17:58
S1: because that's been another political response, Paul, to what's happened
18:01
S1: this week. But there has been some basically argument or,
18:05
S1: you know, the coalition has attacked the government for not
18:07
S1: having listed this organization as a terror group before. What's
18:11
S1: happened there?
18:12
S2: Yeah. So this is kind of the political talking point
18:15
S2: this week. It's a it's a tool that the opposition
18:18
S2: can use to hit the government over the head with,
18:21
S2: to make them appear flat footed on this and reactive
18:25
S2: in 2022 and three, there were widespread protests after the
18:30
S2: killing of a young Iranian woman, Mahsa Amini, who died
18:33
S2: after being treated brutally by the Iranian morality police because
18:37
S2: she wasn't wearing a hijab. This sparked huge protests in Iran,
18:41
S2: one of the biggest in many years, and a really
18:44
S2: brutal crackdown from the Iranian government. There was tortures, there
18:47
S2: was lots of, um, there were lots of people died
18:49
S2: in the crackdown. They shut down the internet. They went
18:52
S2: into universities. It was. It was a real it was
18:55
S2: a real show of force by the regime. And there
18:57
S2: were huge protests in Australia at that time, too. There's
19:00
S2: about 30,000 Iranians in Melbourne, and they were protesting regularly
19:03
S2: and regularly in the CBD. Many of those people protesting,
19:07
S2: including some of the leaders, were telling the Australian government
19:10
S2: at the time, and Claire O'Neill was the home affairs minister.
19:11
S2: She's now the housing minister that they were being followed
19:14
S2: to their homes. They were having the air out of
19:17
S2: their tyres. Uh, they were being watched and they believed
19:20
S2: that there were IRGC or Iranian government linked figures in
19:24
S2: Australia kind of monitoring this protest movement and trying to
19:28
S2: harm them and strike fear into them. And this is
19:31
S2: how autocratic and, you know, uh, you know, halfway autocratic
19:35
S2: regimes like Modi in India, uh, the Chinese government, they're
19:39
S2: highly suspicious and paranoid governments. So they they monitor their
19:43
S2: diasporas closely. So that kind of that behaviour led to
19:46
S2: calls from the coalition at that time to list the
19:49
S2: IRGC as a terror outfit. The argument from the government
19:51
S2: was that it's a effectively a branch of a government,
19:54
S2: and the Criminal Code in Australia doesn't allow a branch
19:57
S2: of government to be listed as a terror organisation. You
19:59
S2: can only list outfits like Hamas or ISIS because they're
20:03
S2: not parts of a government. They're effectively paramilitary or other groups.
20:07
S2: So the government said no at the time. They've obviously
20:09
S2: reversed this week. There was a much stronger case to
20:12
S2: do it this week. So the reversal is understandable. It's
20:15
S2: totally unclear if listing them two years ago would have
20:18
S2: had any effect.
20:19
S1: Would have had.
20:19
S2: On thwarting what's happened. But it's a it's a political line.
20:22
S1: Yeah. Knotty. What does it mean to be listed as
20:24
S1: officially as a terrorist organisation? Like what practical effect does
20:27
S1: that have?
20:28
S3: Look, to be honest, I think it is largely symbolic
20:32
S3: in many ways. I mean, it makes it illegal to
20:35
S3: say for Australians to fund or support groups like this,
20:39
S3: but with the IRGC, that's not a super relevant thing
20:43
S3: because they are part of the state. It's really a
20:47
S3: way of, uh, distancing ourselves from Iran. This has been
20:50
S3: a big part of what the diaspora has Jaspers wanted
20:53
S3: is limiting all our connections. It would limit any relationships
20:58
S3: that Australian officials could have with them, for example. But
21:02
S3: to be honest, would this have stopped these attacks from happening?
21:05
S3: I don't necessarily see how it would have. The IRGC
21:09
S3: is going to keep doing what it does. You know,
21:12
S3: it's got its it's got its modus operandi. Um, but yeah,
21:17
S3: I think this is really a symbolic thing. We're saying,
21:20
S3: how do we communicate to Iran in every way possible
21:24
S3: that this is absolutely unacceptable? This isn't normal diplomatic espionage practice.
21:29
S2: And a big, big part of normal terror listings. For example,
21:31
S2: if you list Hezbollah, that's a way for Australian authorities
21:34
S2: to crack down on any Lebanese Australians who might be
21:38
S2: supporting that group. As you mentioned, there's no Iranians who
21:40
S2: are expressing any local support for, uh, the IRGC. I mean,
21:44
S2: most Iranian Australians left after the revolution. Many of them
21:48
S2: are from minorities like Baha'is. There was a special program
21:52
S2: in the 80s to bring in persecuted religious minorities. So
21:54
S2: it's a very different case to Hamas, Hezbollah, all of that.
21:57
S2: And to me, the government's argument about not listing them
22:00
S2: made some sense. And it's unorthodox.
22:02
S1: Yeah, it's been absolutely fascinating to read all your stuff
22:06
S1: this week. Thanks, fellas.
22:07
S2: Thanks, jacki. Bye.
22:14
S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong with technical assistance
22:17
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