Latest / WiseNoise: The Creative Practice Podcast / WN09: Matt Burns on starting and agency, going global and presentation as an artfrom
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hello and welcome to Wise Noise, the podcast about creative practice. This is episode nine. yeah, on to number nine. I'm out for a walk in the woods beside my studio. Well it's a few minutes away, but it's quite nice to escape the noise of the road. And get out here. I have there's a little bench that's situated in the middle of the woods. And I'm going to get to that little point and have a little protein bar in my pocket. And I'm gonna sit and munch that happily. ⁓ before I get back to finishing off the edit for this podcast. ⁓ on this podcast we have Matt Burns. Matt is the executive creative director of Thirst. which is a global drinks brand agency. ⁓ this I I just love this episode. After I I really wanted Matt on because I knew I knew he'd bring the gold in terms of like j just trying to figure out how you get from a freelance designer to running a multinational agency, you know. So like I I start off with a podcast talking about it, but I've got previous with Matt. ⁓ I met him many moons ago when he was fresh off the boat from Australia. And yeah, I've watched ⁓ obviously ever since ⁓ him flourish. ⁓ and I remember getting a text off him saying, I've started an agency ⁓ way back and I was like, ⁓ that's really cool But also like ⁓ a difficult and daunting task many pals have I've started an agency and then two years later I'm back just doing freelance. But Matt has just gone from strength to strength to strength and is just absolutely doing world class design work. And as you'll tell from this podcast he's just a bloody nice bloke. ⁓ and I really enjoy the chat with him. And I do think I like I it's called wise noise for a reason. I do hope In between some of the conversational chat and banter there is some pearls of wisdom ⁓ coming up from the surface and I think this is w one of those that's like chalk a block. I think some of the things you have to say in this podcast ⁓ are really ⁓ not just inspiring but very valuable for all levels of creative practice, ⁓ agency owner from ⁓ Johnny freelancers to agency owners. So Hope you enjoy this listen. ⁓ if you do enjoy the listen, give me all the algorithmic friendly stuff, the subsc subscribe, the thumbs ups, the follows, the reviews, the shares, all of that stuff. Just kind of get the word out there, really appreciated. And I think Matt deserves to be presented in as many earlobes as possible. ⁓ And the other way you can support the podcast is wise love.shop. I'll put up some sweet new s wise noise swag. You can get yourself a magic mug for twelve pounds or a t-shirt for ⁓ tw w what are they priced at? Twenty-two pounds. Anyway, they're really nice and they'll help towards supporting the podcast, i.e. giving me some money for all the time I'm spending bringing these world-class ⁓ I guess to your ears. and because you listen to the podcast, why not type in Wise Noise Ten to get ten percent off a ten percent discount off and yeah and buy yourself something else extra from the shop. ⁓ yeah that's enough sales pitchy stuff. Hope you enjoyed the podcast. Here's Matt Byrne. ⁓ yeah, so yeah, thanks for joining me man and busy guy, meeting overrunning and everything, and you're just still ducking in. You're working hard this morning. speaker-1: I know. I was I was trying to politely get off, but ⁓ so I thought I'd just quit drop you a quick message there. But ⁓ Yeah serves me right for maybe doing a test video, you know, it's always a bit of a busy, busy time of the day. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-1: Where are you? Where are you? Where are you based there? You based ⁓ you based out of nowhere now, ⁓ Yeah well speaker-0: Well, I'm I'm less in the middle of nowhere. I'm I'm in the middle of slightly somewhere now. ⁓ I was on the Isle of Loose. We were on the Isle of Loose for about eight years and that was amazing. ⁓ but Then we've moved to Aberdeenshire now. I'm in a Boeing, which is like about half Norrod side Aberdeen City, along Royal D side. So yeah, it's ⁓ lovely round here, man, yeah. But it it does mean that there's like ⁓ all all the ⁓ mod cons of the mainland, like indoor toilets and ⁓ hygiene. But no, it's like it it's cool man. It's just ⁓ really nice to be like actually living it still has like a beautiful countryside and safe community and all that, but it's just really nice, especially now the girls are like they're almost teenagers now, so their interests are kinda going into the cinema and going to gigs and all that kind of stuff. So just being like half an hour from a city is much more ⁓ agreeable to them where like I think the living on an island was far too small for their ambitions, you know. speaker-1: Yeah, wow, okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great experience. Never been to Lewis, but I'd love to go. ⁓ I think I said to you, I'm I'm off to Cork. Off to Cork ⁓ in a couple of months with with some lads for a lads weekend down in Cork tonight. That should be nice. You'll need to l where the hot spots are. speaker-0: Yeah well ⁓ well I'm a little slightly out of touch. A lot of the a lot of the classic ⁓ pubs there, like the Oval is a great pub. I I was there at Christmas and ⁓ yeah, it's like like there's loads of pubs that haven't changed f in like decades, you know, still wooden pubs, but and you get like amazing Murphy's Beamish actually, Beamish is the proper hardcore stuff when you get there. speaker-1: Yeah, it's good. speaker-0: Yeah, Beamish is great. And they're actually like the old Beamish brewery. They're like a they there's a lot of building work going on, but they're turning that that into like a an amazing c I don't know if it'll be ready or if it's open or whatever by the time we go, but they're d it's meant to be like this multi million pound kind of like ⁓ a little bit like ⁓ the sort of Guinness storehouse in Dublin. They're making their Cork version with like Beamish where you can take a tour around the brewery and all that kind of stuff, you know. So yeah, that should be amazing when it opens up. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, awesome. speaker-0: Yeah, but but yeah, so it'll be really cool. But yeah, Quark's fab, man. It'll be excellent for like a a wee weekend. but yeah, we haven't spoken in a while, man, actually. And 'cause I was like ⁓ I 'cause I was thinking back to those ⁓ Parktic days, you know, when you would arrive just straight off the boat from Australia. You had ⁓ you know, with the sort of boomerang in your pocket and ⁓ You had one of those hats. Remember you had one of those hats with all the corks hanging off it? Like the speaker-1: I still have that hat. I still have that hat, yeah. speaker-0: And I'm trying to think of other stereotypical Australian things that you had. You had a kangaroo on your arm and I thought like, ⁓ my god, that's that's highly unnecessary. Yeah. but yeah, the kangaroo died sad sadly after that. But no speaker-1: I've still got the accent. I don't have ⁓ I don't have all those things. The ⁓ the ca the kangaroo didn't l ⁓ last in the cold weather. ⁓ no, no. He got it like that. ⁓ kangaroo got out of here back in Sydney, but ⁓ I've still retained the accent. So ⁓ yeah, it's been about fourteen fourteen ⁓ fourteen years since I've been here now. speaker-0: Yeah, amazing man. Yeah, 'cause it was like ⁓ 'cause this is gonna make it sound like about I think it was like a gumtree advert. It's gonna ⁓ there's there's certain things you say when you suddenly realize when you say them out loud you sound about a thousand years old. That like ⁓ I cause I th I I had I had loads of work on and I put a gumtree advert on of just like, look, is anybody kind of like a freelancer and I can just give you like lots of ⁓ like a few days a week type of thing of like just helping out with loads of small jobs. And I think I went to meet meet you down in like Velvet Elvis, I remember. I don't know if Velvet Elvis is still going in Park. ⁓ but ⁓ but yeah, and I remember going in and I was like, normally it's like students and I I I just needed somebody who had a decent kind of like grip on like you know, the holy trinity of InDesign, Photoshop and Illustrator. And I was just I I kinda went in, I was like, sh ⁓ fuck. I was like, he's actually better than me It was annoying. We were showing me your portfolio and I I remember specifically you had like the work you did for all the young nudes and you'd made this type of graphic ⁓ like you spelt out the letters but it was all like it you know, using sort of pencils. And I was like shit, that that's like that's amazing. And I was I I was kind of apologetically saying like, yeah, you can work, but it's basically like business cards I'm kinda gonna give you, you know. But ⁓ I I think I think you were just kind of like ⁓ desperate for any kind of work, ⁓ just, you know, straight off the boat like you were. You have to feed your kangaroo for fuck's sake, Matt. speaker-1: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. ⁓ I'm trying to remember the Velvet Elvis. Did we have a pint, Pierce? Is that is that how the or what the meeting was? We was it a pint or speaker-0: Yeah. No, 'cause you you you you kinda got a touch of the gumtree average. I like, ⁓ I meet you in the Velvet Elvis. And ⁓ but yeah, pro probably had a pint. Any excuse for a pint. that that that that was the start of it, but ⁓ you know, 'cause I I ⁓ 'cause like yeah, 'cause actually a l a ⁓ a theme of this podcast, a lot of it is like generalism versus specialism. It's like it's kind of one of the main topics speaker-1: Yeah. Well no. speaker-0: And I think I be because I was just kind of like open to every sort of like any job coming. So I was like super busy with lots of small jobs. But I think early on you kind of focused on the sort of drinks industry ⁓ in terms of your practice, yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, so that that was it, you know, I kind of moved over. ⁓ and ⁓ it was essentially it was essentially like a bit of a like probably I would say like an eighty percent start again. Like I I like I worked with a lot of people back in back in ⁓ Sydney. and I'd felt I had already fallen in love with with craft beer in particular before I w before I moved over. ⁓ but it was essentially like, you know, let's let's let's Let's start again type thing. So but but a part of that decision is like I knew that I wanted beer to be my focus. ⁓ but when you're starting again, you can't just turn on a switch, as you know, Pierce. You can't just flick on a switch and being like, I'm gonna do beer and I'm I'm I'm really busy all of a sudden. So you have to make ends meet and you do what you do what you need to do and you you kind of make a living of being a an independent designer. ⁓ but I still That as my focus, you know. So it was it was a few years of chipping away at that when I moved over. ⁓ I I tell this story a lot where ⁓ in in in that first first year of being in Scotland, I I have Scotland was my initial focus, and I made a spreadsheet. first and only spreadsheet of of my career. ⁓ and in the spreadsheet, four breweries in Scotland at at the time and and if if if that's correct, it was forty four, forty four breweries and ⁓ I s I I just emailed all of them and I just sent them my work and said that what I love and ⁓ and and I just ⁓ you know would like to do some work. And I think I got out of forty four emails, I think I got like three responses. ⁓ Two of them said, fuck off. And one of them said, Yeah, right, got some got some work for you. ⁓ and that brewery, that brewery that said got some work for you was was fine ale's up in Argyle. And the marketing manager there, ⁓ his name's Chris. Me and him became really good mates for the three years of working together. ⁓ he loved he loved craft beer just as much as me. We sh we sh we shared a similar philosophy of what we thought the industry. could be. and we we tried to come up with lots of ideas to go into business together. ⁓ but essentially we we landed on Thirst. So my first my first sort of brewery client in in in Scotland he ended up being my business partner three years later and then we started Thirst. So Chris he he was like marketing marketing ⁓ marketing direct ⁓ managing director ⁓ and and he leads the business side of things and ⁓ and I lead everything creatively. So ⁓ brilliant. It was just ⁓ it's just a bit of a story of ⁓ I don't know, trying to connect dots, ⁓ doing what you need to do to to to make ends meet and trying to be entrepreneurial and ⁓ when you smell an opportunity, ⁓ just just trying to grab hold of it. ⁓ so Started off with craft beer. ⁓ it that evolved into, you know, spirits, ⁓ into into wine. it evolved then into like working with bigger beer brands. ⁓ so yeah, Thirst Now is almost eleven years old and ⁓ still very much specialising just in the beverage industry and and really lucky to have grown the team and growing the growing the client base to clients all around the world. speaker-0: Yeah, amazing man. It's it's such an amazing journey from that ⁓ the power of the spreadsheet. and and I know it ju it just it it it is a lot of like sticking your neck out the turtle method in terms of like right, this is wanna do wanna do and it's like obviously and I think the percentages are kind of like the same when you're doing a lot of cold emailing like that, you know, you'll you will get like ninety-five percent will r ignore you and and some that get back will just say no thank you but then you you just need that one you just need one out of all those emails ⁓ to come good. ⁓ and and it's fascinating there your relationship with Chris because like I often thought about when like I kinda got busy when I was ⁓ running my studio on the Isle of Loose and I c was kind of feeling like big work was kinda coming in. And I can remember thinking about like trying to expand And one of my thoughts was the fact that like I kept thinking about, ⁓ I need another designer to kind of like, you know, handle the work. But but I was I actually kinda thinking, I need somebody to actually run the business, be like the actual business manager, you know. I I can I can do the work, I can do the design work. So I I I from the outside kind of looking in, I think that was like a a really good dynamic between yourself and Chris that like, you know ⁓ I ⁓ I'm I I'm just assuming this is what happened, but he kinda looked after these kind of like winning new business and the kind of like spotting gaps in the mark that marketing kind of sense of like, you know, ⁓ targeting kind of clients, etc. So he he brought that dynamic and then when the work was one you could kinda take care of the actual ⁓ the design and the craft of that. Is that how it worked? speaker-1: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And you know, every now and then, like, you know, a a student or a graduate will will ask me for what's you what I want to start my own agency, what's a bit of advice you could give me. And I'm like, you find someone to to to run the business. They kind of look at me being like, That's shit advice, but it's it's it's it's the truth. ⁓ because you know, I I ⁓ I understanding the commerciality of of the work and the agency and all that's really important, but it's quite hard. For me, for me personally, to to be attached to the money and the business and to attach to the creative at the same time simultaneously, it it's it's almost like two parts of your brain. You know, so actually being able to to take some of those decisions and have someone else own those sorts of decisions, which are the more logical, the more strategic, the more business side of things. And for me just to be purely focused on, you know, the creativity, ⁓ coming up with those solutions, creative solutions for clients and thinking about also how to evolve and and nurture those like relationships from a creative point of view ⁓ has has just helped so much. ⁓ so that that dynamic between Chris and I and the relationship between Chris and I is is something that I feel is is a big part of why First has been successful. Sure the the work and the relationships and and all that is one thing, but the fact that we have just just two two minds that work quite differently, ⁓ but share a love for one mutual thing, is is is is I think why we've had a lot of success over over the years. speaker-0: Yeah, amazing man. ⁓ and when you're starting to grow the business then I I'm also interested in terms of like when you do bring on a team on w other designers on board, you know, because you put probably start out you were the sole kind of like doing all the sort of design work. And then when it kind of expands and you get other kind of designers in. I'm just w wondering how you handle that because like i you know, advancing from ⁓ just being the the designer to more creative director role and having that trust in kind of ⁓ other people kind of in their own kind of strength and abilities. Did that take quite an adjustment and what you know, because I I've I've occasionally I've had to kind of collaborate and ⁓ work with people but a lot of time most of the times it's just a hundred percent I'm I'm looking start ⁓ and you can get kind of precious and have your own sort of ways and ideas about how something would look. ⁓ but I I I t I take it you have to kind of like ⁓ let go of the ego somewhat or let go of ⁓ almost trust in other people's visions more than your own when you when when that w when you become a creative director in that respect. speaker-1: Yeah, a hundred a hundred percent. Like like I back back in Sydney I did work for a ⁓ like a small small studio for for about a year and a half or something like that. ⁓ but that was when I just first graduated and then like I I never worked like in a in a in a big studio environment and I ni I didn't progress through the ranks in a studio. ⁓ so like I I've never really been able to experience ⁓ You know, what what what like that kind of like what the what the different levels of roles look like, what those different responsibilities look like, what what it kind of means to be a creative director and, you know, be able to kind of inspire people and and and lead people and direct creative and get the best out of people. No one has ever really showed me how to do that. And exactly the same for Chris. Like Chris was marketing manager of a brewery. No one showed him how to to run a business, how to Have to, you know, do all the the other like similar things in terms of like leading people and making decisions and things like that. Like, you know, Chris and I have been for the last 11 years like learning on the job. and you know, and and experimenting and making plenty of mistake mistakes, but learning from them and progressing that way. ⁓ so yeah, it's it's it's it's very much been an evolution for me where like you know, we we sort of in the in the design team. You know, we sort of took on our first person and to be honest, there wasn't really a massive change there because I was still very much on the tools. I just some had someone else on the tools next to me. And then but that was probably the same when we sort of maybe grew the design team to maybe five people. I was still very heavily involved in like and responsible for generating, you know, concepts and design work and rolling it out and and kind of doing everything really. But then it sort of gets to a point where it's like, Well, there's probably enough people now to be kind of, you know, thinking and doing the work and the client base grew and it sort of then the demands on me kind of shifted where I was sort of more kind of trying to kind of keep people right and and ⁓ just dabble with design a little bit but I could feel myself starting to manage people more. And then, you know, the design team probably when it was at its biggest was probably, you know, about sixteen, seventeen strong. Whereas like n I'd n I'd never been in that situation before and you kind of sitting there looking back, being like, God, am am I doing this right? Am I am I am I doing it the way people need me to do it? But and then there's another part of me is like, you know, well fuck the way it's meant to be done. How do I want to do it? And yeah, it and it's still something, you know, I'm learning, you know, it's it's I I like it's ⁓ I'm I'm not on I'm I don't get on the tools as there's nowhere near as much as as I ⁓ I used to anymore. I try to here and there but ⁓ it's very much like a the the role that I I play at Thirst Dow is is something that I've had to like kind of just hone and and craft and I don't know, shape myself rather than kind of modeling it off ⁓ something that I've seen done by somebody else. So yeah. Winging it winging it in a sense, yeah. Yeah, well speaker-0: That's a you do an amazing job at winging it it seems because like, you know, in terms of ⁓ you know, when you read about the culture of the agency, I think you fostered a really good culture there, it seems from the outside, you know. And and and absolutely it's kind of like amazing that you know these things ⁓ it's different ⁓ completely different ball games and di completely different skill sets that you need from just like b being at the tools as you call it, you know. It's like it you're kind of going into more management and like ⁓ team leadership and you know, development and e even on a HR basis. Making sure people are really happy when they show up to work, you know, and and all that kind of stuff, you know. yeah, and ⁓ what what I'll probably do then Matt is I I'm gonna share like the screen and we'll ⁓ talk about one of your big clients, ⁓ which is Brue Claddy. I should yeah, there we are. Brue Claddy, share screen. Yeah, okay, cool. So ⁓ I can you can we see Brooklady on screen there now, yeah? speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So speaker-0: Yeah, so so I was just gonna talk 'cause there's actually three different projects here which are all list on website, which kind of goes to the extent of how much of a big client they are for you. So like the first one was like ⁓ talking about when you first brought them on and developing like just ⁓ developing the brand from where it was originally. speaker-1: Yeah. Abs absolutely. Yeah. And ⁓ there's a couple of there's a couple of ⁓ you know, brands that we've worked with that have these little like little sentimental stories behind them and Brooke Laddie is one of ⁓ Where ⁓ like what the first time I ever came to Scotland on a on a holiday before I moved here, ⁓ I I took a bottle of Brooke Laddie back with me for my for my mates. ⁓ when my first son was born, it was the bottle of ⁓ of whiskey my parents bought me. ⁓ to celebrate, you know, first first child and my first American client when I went to the gym, I took them with bottle of of classic Laddie. So it was this brand that was like you know ever present throughout throughout my life and and my journey here in Scotland. And then the day that the the the the the pitch came in to to to do the kind of the repositioning and redesign of Brooke Laddie It was a little bit of one of those, ⁓ my God, that's the brand that's been, you know, follow me around, been there with all at all these big moments in my life. Yeah. So it was a little bit of a little bit of a moment. and ⁓ but the the brief itself was really interesting because the brick laddie's always been a pretty nice looking brand. This is very much like from a design point of view, it was an evolution. It wasn't a re reinvention. And it was always a brand that I thought looked pretty good. But when they said they wanted to redesign their packaging, I was a bit like, phoo, huh? Already thought it looked pretty sweet. Like that that's that's gonna be an interesting challenge. But it was it was once you got into it, you could see the opportunities, you could see like, okay, I can see how we can make an impact here. ⁓ so we actually started with the brand strategy. And ⁓ Brooke Glady is the first B Corp distillery in Europe. ⁓ like the environment, sustainability, ⁓ and their impact on the world is is something that's hugely important to them. It's it's like where they actually like, you know, how they grow their ingredients, their relationships they have with farmers, the community that they've built on on Isla. ⁓ it it's it's very much about like how can they be creating a a a better whiskey making environment, ⁓ a lesser impact on the world and ⁓ and the world around it, ⁓ still make ⁓ you know, beautiful, beautiful whiskies at the end of the day. So we went through this ⁓ brand ⁓ brand positioning kind of ⁓ period where it was essentially like a study of like the the full whiskey eco making ⁓ whiskey eco making ⁓ the ecosystem around ⁓ making whiskey and ⁓ this this idea of progress ⁓ and how can we actually create a better whiskey world tomorrow so this was very much this idea of ⁓ marginal gains and it wasn't about sort of you know trying to make this enormous change ⁓ and and and and this huge shift because it's quite an overwhelming thing to say that we're gonna completely change the the whiskey world tomorrow. It was about understanding all the little bits that go into actually making whiskey from from the ingredients to the farming to the community to the packaging and making marginal gains across the board. So then when you actually stop one day and look back, you can look at the progress that's been made through the entire ecosystem rather than ⁓ trying to make these in these huge leaps, which when you try to make those huge leaps, it can feel quite overwhelming and you make no progress at all. So pro the the idea of the strategy there was this idea of ⁓ was about progress drop by drop. So go thinking about the marginal gains and all the different things that we can do and how that adds up to cumulative change over time. So then when it came to the design of the brand, a huge piece of what they were doing at the time was was ⁓ removing the secondary pack. And you know, Piers, you'll you'll know what it's like when you go into a whiskey store here in Scotland. ⁓ like Scotch whiskey famously comes in boxes. It it's it's like the it's the done thing. And you have a huge canvas there that creates that standout on shelf. ⁓ and there's a huge canvas there for all that storytelling. ⁓ plus it also, you know, adds to the specialness of, you know, it could be something that's gifted or ⁓ you know it adds to the kind of ⁓ I guess it just adds to the specialness of that with that whiskey purchase. But what Brooke Laddie wanted to do, classic Laddie, was was at the at this p point in time was they're gonna remove the secondary pack. So that w that was huge. because and all they were doing is speaker-0: Yeah, sorry, it also speaks to that sort of incremental step within the industry, you know, just doing something that like ⁓ seems quite small decision, but it it could actually have a huge impact on like i y what how people perceive the industry, yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you had a sustainability thing there in play. And we we also wanted to make sustainabil ⁓ sustainability inroads on their core packaging. ⁓ which I'll talk about in a sec. But w the other thing that we realized was like that bot gonna have to work really, really hard on shelf because it wasn't gonna have a box to amplify its presence on the on the shelf. So from a sustainability point of view, we actually we just wanted to start from where they were. ⁓ at that point in time, we wanted to look at their current bottle. It was an off-the-shelf bottle. It was the most used bottle in the spirits industry. It was the bottle called the Oslo bottle. ⁓ it was pretty heavy, had a big punt on it. it wasn't very distinctive in its shape or silhouette. ⁓ the glass, it was you know, really thick. So we what we wanted to do was, you know, we wanted to understand everything. We wanted to know how many bottles were coming in on a pallet, how many bottles were leaving on a pallet, because if we could make Optimizations from a palletizations perspective. That would mean, you know, less trucks, less shipping around the world. We wanted to know the weight, the glass thickness, the the ⁓ what the stocker was made of, what the capsule was made of, what the the aqua coating ink was made of. And we wanted to just study all of that to see what gains that we could make. So the footprint of the bottle was smaller, the glass thickness was smaller, the punt was shorter, ⁓ the the ink coating over the top was using organic inks. And then we just put all of that together and in removing that secondary pack, we were able to make a 65% reduction in CO2. So it wasn't about making the most sustainable bottle the world has ever seen, but it was making inroads from where the brand was yesterday. So 65% reduction in CO2 was pretty good. But then you also had the brand lens to come in as well. You needed to have that impact. And it also needed to feel special. So the bottle has this nice big canvas on it to get that brand impact. It was also a brand that Yeah, had all that beautiful typography, the grid, that very much that Swiss design. So the the big canvas on that bottle allowed us to get all that beautiful brand impact on there. And then we worked in the the the kind of the the premium, the luxury details, like the embossings, the little engravings in there, the the the print finishes that made it feel like a special ⁓ sort of luxury product at the end of the day. So that was the story behind the redesign of the classic Laddie. We took that then into campaign. ⁓ which is ⁓ what we did on the the not your class which was ⁓ you know it was very much a case of like you everything that we do at Brooklady is different. But you can't just sort of put on a you know a poster, ⁓ wait you know, we're different, you should buy us. ⁓ plus the whiskey industry is pretty serious as well. And I had this little insight of, you know, when was the last time you smiled in the whiskey aisle? How we sort of just bring in that sort of rye smile. ⁓ when you're in that that but that whiskey purchasing moment. So you know it was a playoff classic laddie. There's nothing classic about us, not in the way we look, not in the way we make whiskey. So we wanted to sort of portray these not your classic whiskey drinkers, but just to bring that that warmth and that irreverent smile into the into that whiskey moment. But it was a bit of a gift, a pretty, pretty nice lens to be able to fly, you know, above the line and straight, straight through the line into to the on trade, into the off trade. So even when we were thinking about in-store activation, it was like not your classic POS, not your classic serves, not your classic activation, not not your classic became friends. ⁓ and then we took that into I'm not sure if you got the l out the luxury one there as well, ⁓ Pierce, but ⁓ we took that into to luxury as well. So I guess like when you go into luxury, luxury whiskey, everything gets heavier, everything gets more gold, more weight, more material. We wanted to try and like redefine the rules of luxury whiskey ⁓ and again bring in that idea of ⁓ of ⁓ real progress into into luxury whiskey. So we created a second whiskey bottle here. It's actually the exact same weight as the core bottle. We worked in some beautiful design details into that to add to the experience. Like it's got this little sh little ⁓ angled ⁓ like bore ⁓ essentially the bit where the whiskey comes out of the bottle. We put a little chevron on that just so the core of that whiskey was Extra smooth. Again, we retain that really good canvas. We actually pair the age statement on the ⁓ on the design of the label with a bit more of a philosophy around age. I think one of the things that happens in whiskey is like everything is focused on that number, whereas we want it to be more than a number. We have this philosophy that we pair with the age statement. And then when it came to the secondary pack, ⁓ we were the first ⁓ spirit brand in the world to use a the hundred percent ⁓ ⁓ paper pulp mold that wraps around the bottle almost like Batman suit. So that that mold that you see there around the around the bottle, it's made from a hundred percent paper pulp. There's no there's no ⁓ there's no glues, there's no magnets, there's ⁓ there's ⁓ it's like a dyed ⁓ recycled paper pulp. So all that detail is worked into the mold ⁓ that adds that you know that extra layer of of decoration. So it was a world's first which is pretty cool. ⁓ definitely sort of the grabbed the headlines and grabbed a lot of people's attention. ⁓ and it was a way of doing luxury ⁓ and adding that extra level of you know desire, ⁓ but without a huge impact on on the environment. So so yeah, it's ⁓ it's a amazing, you know, story. It was it was it was a project that started, I think, ⁓ in 2000 and I'm gonna say twenty one, like right in the middle of COVID. ⁓ a lot of a lot of Zoom calls, ⁓ a lot of you know remote working. ⁓ but yeah, a special a special project for us at first, special project for me because of the I guess those personal ties I had with the brand. ⁓ definitely had a little bit of stage fright at first. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: No, it sounds amazing man, and it's fascinating to hear how, you know, I think as a designer you sometimes get obsessed about like sort of colour and type and all all these things are important in brand, but it was amazing to hear how you really looked at the sort of sustainability of the bottles and y at those incremental gains as part of the branding and how that's carried across into the into the luxury packaging is ⁓ that was fascinating to hear about, you know. An amazing way of like tackling the brand. strategy is is making those incremental games. I I just was fascinated by like I love the photography on this project on the campaigns one. So I kind of writing the photography be brief and getting developing that. Did you work with an external photographer or studio with that or is that done in house or speaker-1: Yeah, we work with a ⁓ photographer called ⁓ Justin Bettman. He's based in ⁓ LA. ⁓ so the shoot was actually done out in LA. And I guess we we just wanted to like deliver and entertain consumers ⁓ something they haven't seen before in in whiskey. So I guess when you think of like the classic whiskey drinker, you think of, you know, the really the really fancy suit, you think in the mahogany bar, you think in the cuff links. You're thinking like perfectly groomed, all all those sorts of stuff. Maybe a a perfectly manicured beard, ⁓ unlike unlike mine today. You know, you're thinking about everything just being like just just perfect and so so. ⁓ you know, quite quite idyllic. Whereas, you know, it was just it was a very simple insight here of, you know, we're not we're not classic in any sense. So we our our our perfect whiskey drinker. doesn't have to be perfect in any sense either. So we found these really irreverent characters. You know, we're we're drinking it out of we're drinking a serve out of a pineapple. We have the the older lady there with the with the the disco ball and the you know the the the beautiful jab ⁓ beautiful like colouring throughout these scenes as well. So just Justin Betman's an amazing, ⁓ super talented photographer, does a lot of like beautiful portraiture. really really is able to capture, I think, like the spirit of these individuals and their and I guess they're ⁓ you know they're they're kind of like the this a little bit of this like yeah their spirit and their the humor that comes through through their characters. and it just it just delivered on, you know, whiskey photography the world hadn't seen before. So it was super fun. ⁓ captured a lot of people's ⁓ imagination which was great. speaker-0: Yeah, no, it's perfectly pitched man, 'cause as you were saying there is like, you know, how how often have you smiled in the whiskey aisle? And I think there is a a fine line to tread because like, you know, y humor can kind of go a bit too far where you can like suddenly feel as though like the whiskey itself is a bit of a joke. But I think this kind of creates that that little smile but it still keeps it really cool and it's still ⁓ you know, all those little ⁓ touches of having the Brooklady kind of teal kind of punctuate ⁓ punctuate the kind of ⁓ the color toning of the actual photographs is like you know really lovely. Re it's it's really classy as well as being humorous, you know. So I think it's really beautifully pitched the photography. speaker-1: Nice, amazing. Thanks, babe. speaker-0: Yes out. So ⁓ I think we've been ⁓ chatting a bit too heavily about ⁓ design and all that. So I have the bingo wheel of wisdom round Matt. This is a bit of a palette cleanser. So this is like I'll h hold it up for the camera. So this is the bingo wheel and I have ⁓ ninety questions here. Well, I need to I'll I'll probably mute the audio while I roll the balls, but I've a first couple of balls rolled out. And The idea here is that we just ask random questions. ⁓ some of them are design related, some of them are not. But yeah. So yeah, let me see. ⁓ first out is eighty nine. Where's my questions? Eighty nine is what's your go to karaoke song? speaker-1: Right, okay. ⁓ my god. ⁓ maybe maybe do it and enter Sandman by Metallica, it's an easy one sort of belt out. Yeah. Just the crowd going. speaker-0: Yeah, you d have a fairly hoarse voice at the end of it, you know. Yeah, good man. A lot of those metal ones ⁓ are are pretty easy on the ⁓ you know, you don't really they you don't really need to have good melody or pitch, you just need to kind of bark it out all. Yeah. Twenty eight. ⁓ music or podcasts while working. speaker-1: Yeah. Exactly. music. Music. Yeah. I c I can't have someone else's voice in my head next to my own. So definitely definitely ⁓ music. But ⁓ I do I do run a lot and ⁓ I would say I'm fifty fifty when it comes to running, sometimes a podcast, sometimes music. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, it depends. I like ⁓ I s I suppose that's it's also slightly geared towards more solo designers 'cause like that's quite an important choice during the d d the day. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ like like if there's I can't listen to a podcast, especially if I've kinda got to like if there's any emailing work or I have to kind of like write up something, then you can't l it's it's impossible to listen to that. But if I've kinda got a really nice kind of like logo project or something that I can dig into then I'll even go like an audiobook where I can just kind of get lost in it. what if it's just what if it's just pure kind of creative design. fifty eight I it's re the question here is local or remote, but I don't even know what that means. Okay, I'll go for the next ⁓ f forget about it. It's a dud question. I probably like I probably left it in there by mistake. How do you handle creative block? That's a more interesting question. speaker-1: Creative block. Yeah, cool. So I I I I just I reset. I g I go back to to what I know. So what like in this particular like what the challenge is, like w okay, so what what facts do I have? What am I trying to what am I actually trying to say? ⁓ and just just try and reset and just go back through the process a little bit, you know, like what's really important like to ⁓ to us here at Thirst and and to me is like everything's rooted in in some sort of truth. So like just just a little bit of like reset going back to like what am I trying to actually say here? ⁓ sometimes I like just grabbing some people and just having a chat, even if they don't say anything, I just kinda like speak at them for a bit and I find the solution myself. ⁓ but just just going back through the just asking the right questions in the head and I guess just going back and not trying to overcomplicate c overcomplicate things, you know, I think the best solutions kind of, you know, like they sort of they they kind of ⁓ they're the most obvious sometimes, you know. So yeah, just just trusting the process and knowing that it ⁓ it will get there eventually. speaker-0: Yeah, it's good. Yeah, as you're saying there, it's ⁓ always great to have, you know, you have your core principles as an agency and ⁓ you also when as you s said there in terms of building the strategy for Brooke Laddie, you it's always ⁓ that that that's really like your your guiding light when it comes to creativity because you know creativity can go in all sorts of directions. So it's like good to have that kind of r reset, as you said, come back to like what you set out to do in the first place, you know. speaker-1: Everyone always says ⁓ you know, the best ideas come to come to them in the shower, right? Whereas like I guess like how else can you just create that kind of like that easy flow state in in your mind? Like I have a lot of ideas when I'm about running, or you know, everyone says it happens to them just before bed because you know it's certain parts of their brains are are shutting off and stuff like that. So like sit I think sitting behind your computer or You know, just just trying to solve it in in Illustrator with pixels around, that just doesn't work. speaker-0: No, no, absolutely not. But ⁓ I b I'm also a good believer in the what's the Picasso quote that inspiration finds you working, you know. So I I do find that like, you know, behind me there's this sort of drawing desk and I kind of like I I kinda measure a good week by the t amount of time I'm kinda over at that side of the room rather than this side of the room because like, you know, when I'm over there I'm ⁓ that's where I'm coming up with the ideas and the really kind of strong stuff. So once once I'm there with the sketchbook I find this So like one kind of idea will lead to another type of thing, so so there's also that part of the process. ⁓ cle clean desk or organized chaos? Thirty four. speaker-1: I I like the idea of a clean I like the idea of a clean desk, but I I I tend to not be able to maintain it. So speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Clean desk clean clean desk in theory, organized chaos in practice. speaker-1: Yeah, e exactly. Some reason I can never find ⁓ like paper to draw on. And the other day I actually actually had a ⁓ a a broken rib recently and ⁓ I'm I'm I was drawing something ⁓ for somebody and I'm holding it up and they're like, Matt, what are you drawing on? I'm like, I sh just my X ray report. I can't I can't find anything else to draw on. So I I've pour over bills and I'd I've I've got a letter here from HMRC. I've got ⁓ so ⁓ pretty I like the idea of being, you know, in control and having a beautiful little Japanese notebook with all my sketches in there. I like the idea of that. Wish I was that. ⁓ I just in f in practice practice it just goes to shit very quickly. speaker-0: Yeah, no, absolutely. I love that, like, you know, on your on your HMRC da attacks. Just doing a little doodle. Yeah, nice man. speaker-1: How do you like this thing? speaker-0: Yeah yeah. One last question saw this round. ⁓ sixty seven, do you like watching sport or would you rather a deep introspective French art house? speaker-1: We just had French art house. speaker-0: Yeah, it's kinda like it's more of a kind of deep introspective French art house. As in it's like it's more like kind of going to see like a really kind of involving ⁓ deep film, thoughtful film, or do you just rather kind of like stick on the tennis or the or the footy and and and just kind of have that? speaker-1: Sport for sure. ⁓ I I can watch I can watch any sport. ⁓ especially if it's live. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. I don't I don't I don't play a lot of a lot of sports. I g I say I run, but I don't play a lot of other sports, but I just I like I just like watching ⁓ Like I don't play golf, I like watching golf. I don't play tennis, I like watching tennis. I don't play cricket. Cricket's my favourite sport. I'm the worst cricketer you'll ever meet, but I love watching cricket. so definitely definitely sport. I need to I can't be sort of thinking creatively all the time. I need to give the old the old, you know, brain a rest some time. It's a great outlet for that. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. totally a great outlet and I I I'm I'm definitely more towards sport. I do like ⁓ you know I do like ⁓ sticking on a really good like the getting engrossed in a good film but it's a tougher kind of sell sometimes, you know, where especially if like as you said there's life sport on and you know my wife she'll be kinda going like, ⁓ you watch so much football and I'm like but it's kind of ⁓ it's it's live drama, it's unscripted drama like you know, even the worst game ever You know, you could be watching for eighty minutes and then the last ten minutes will be incredible. You know? It's just like and and and you don't necessarily have to think or like get like emotionally involved and it like ⁓ stimulates ⁓ another side of your brain that isn't the kind of like, you know, ⁓ deep level thinking that you do it day in, day out. So it's a it's a great release. It's a nice nicer release than having to go and ponder about like ⁓ And and I do enjoy going to see like, you know, a really nice ⁓ like say something like the Odyssey or something like that. It's amazing, but at the same time ⁓ i it's nice that there's a certain kind of speaker-1: Totally. ⁓ sorry, please. speaker-0: No, no, I'm just saying there's a nice escapism to sport that isn't as involving. speaker-1: Yeah, and I think like the feels like my wife and I like getting into into films together. So we'll watch a lot of like the big sort of, you know, like really kind of like cool films and stuff together. But w if she's out and it's and and I wanna watch something, I'll I'll I'll I'll I won't watch a sports film, but I'll look for a similar form of entertainment or just something a little bit more effortless. So I don't mind a little bit of a You know, a top gun or a or a something like that where I can just sit back and ⁓ I don't I don't care that it's a bit choosy or it doesn't all add up. I'm just but I'm but I'm just I'm just ⁓ entertained. yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. There's a time and a place for like Pringles and Top Gun kind of vibe. But ⁓ yeah, okay, cool. ⁓ well, let's get into the heavy dessert menu saw then Matt. ⁓ so still the same subjects from the last series that I put out because nobody on LinkedIn could be arsed to tell me like decent ⁓ subjects to change. So it is this the met The the menu is how to price your work, the AI elephant in room, the red flags of a nightmare client, specialist versus generalist, self promotion without the ick, avoiding burnout, your design and how to sell it, things they never tell you about in design courses. What are you selecting off the menu, Matt? speaker-1: How how many how many do I choose? speaker-0: You you can you just choose the one or you can choose a few. It's it's really ⁓ it's a i it's a it's a free restaurant in terms of like ⁓ yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. 'Cause I I skipped the starter so I can maybe have a few more desserts, ⁓ They're all they're all like ⁓ like s number seven number seven is something I'm like ⁓ pretty pretty passionate about. speaker-0: Yeah, fair enough. Man. Well it's something that nobody spoke about on the podcast before, so speaker-1: The specialists and generalists one, I'll maybe I'll do four and seven, right? So four's pretty quick. ⁓ finding a specialism is good, but you you still need to find enough enough breadth within that specialism so you you don't like run out of clients very very quickly. So for instance, like yeah, we we're a drink specialist. ⁓ we ⁓ bread and butter has been designed and packaging. But then we've sort of added added more breadth to the way we w work with clients within the drinks industry. So obviously like brand strategy and design has been our bread and butter. ⁓ but now the two other big picks that we bolt onto that is innovation, which is essentially like how do we like how do how do the brands that we work with ⁓ you know, remain relevant in the future? ⁓ it doesn't have to be new products, it can be new ways of showing up, collaborations, different ways of connecting with consumers. But essentially it's like long term relevance. ⁓ and so it's essentially another way, ⁓ knowledge of the industry, ⁓ to to add sort of that creative value. And the other bit that we do is is omnichannels, so which is essentially like ⁓ like like real brand what brand world experiences. Like it could be in the on trade, the off trade. How do we show up in store? How do we like get advocacy with bartenders and people in the trade? So Essentially it's like, yeah, we've we've we've got that niche of being within drinks, but there's breadth and it and it used to be beer and we expanded from beer into anything that's liquid. So it's finding a specialism but still being able to maintain a bit of breadth in there. Like if we were just designed for beer, that's super narrow. And then and that's tough, right? So it it's about it's about being able to still maintain a specialist set of, you know, knowledge. ⁓ but being able to apply it in a in a little bit more of a broad way and that's the sweet spot w that we've been able to find. So that's number four. speaker-0: The the mm yeah, that's really cool. I I I do like that, you know. ⁓ i it's a really good point about specialism that like, you know, i narrow it down but but do don't not too narrow, you know. speaker-1: And and then this this the selling bit, the selling thing is something I don't feel like is talked about like that much, right? So ⁓ and and I think you had an error on number eight, like what's something that they don't teach you in in in ⁓ you know design school or whatever. like like selling and presenting is i is is huge because I've seen like I've seen, you know, great work not bought by the client because the client doesn't believe in the person that has pitched it to them. And I've seen the opposite thing. I've seen okay work like delivered brilliantly. ⁓ and the the clients bought it because they they believe in the person that has done it and like presenting and well presenting or selling work is something that I've like thought about A lot over the years. Like I I'm there to inspire this client that the work that I'm doing, the way I'm thinking about the brand and the passion I'm bringing to that brand is gonna make a difference. And they're not you you can't just rely on I like this typeface and I like this this color and I think this this is nice and that this is my opinion. Like you need to be able to make it objective and and and this is this is why and this is why. And this is why it's gonna work. It's not my opinion. This is fact. So that the art, the art of selling creative work is is is massive and it's not something that anyone's taught me. I've seen people do it in a in a in a brilliant way. and I've I've tried to like hone I still hone that sort of craft of being able to sell sell work, but it is the most important thing. And I and when when when clients don't buy something that you think is right. It's not on the client. It's on you for not making them believe that it was right. You know, and it's nothing whereas the client's like, ⁓ no, I I just really like that that font or, you know, like I just wish they went for concept two or whatever. I'm like, well why didn't they? Like why didn't they go for concept? They're like, ⁓ because they just didn't get it. Well fucking that's not their fault. It's your fault for not making them get it, you know? So the selling piece is important and I'm constantly like saying to the guys, like, it's a great test of like a good piece of work as well, if you can sell it. If you can say to somebody, you know, present it to me and you can feel them working really hard trying to justify and and sell it to you, you're like, No, it's not right because you're you're you're trying to fill the gaps with with fancy words and fancy ways of describing it. But if you can present something and sell something in the most easy human way, then it's right. So I go through that process really early in in the in the in the design in like in our sort of creative process. I go through it quite early. I try to imagine myself selling it, like I'm trying to find those words and how am I going to shape this story? How am I going to present it back? How am I going to make the client believe? And if I can't do that, something's wrong with the work. So it's all interconnected, you know, the selling piece and the creative piece is massively interconnected because basically You need to make it objective. You can't make it about my opinion. You need to make it about fact. And fact needs to be rooted in truth. And that's how that's how you get it to win. So I think seven and eight are kind of connected there, you know, that how do you sell work and how on something that's not really taught in design schools? It's massively important. It's not just about it's not just about beautiful work. It needs to be right. So so yeah, that's something I'm really passionate about. ⁓ it's it's something that yeah. speaker-0: I'm shaking my head vigorously here because it's like i i in agreement because it's like ⁓ yeah, a absolutely ⁓ ev everything you say is just so so ⁓ important and it's like I'm actually kind of ⁓ w as you were talking there, I was I I think I can't wait to get this out and share this on platforms 'cause it's something that like so many people need to hear in terms of like designers and that that ability to present and sell your work is like so overlooked within the industry as a skill. And it's i as I s said, it's like something that's never actually taught in ⁓ in in college in terms of w I remember having certain kind of things about ⁓ you know, sticking your work properly t together on a portfolio or whatever. But it's ⁓ it's the actual and and I even relate it back to because I've kind of done other stuff where I've like done performance on stage, there's a certain kind of s craft Of even how you kind of speak and how you present it. You know, if you're kind of nervous p presenting it, if you're kind of ums and as and unsure about like, you know, the script that you're doing, then that's gonna translate like ⁓ the way it translates to an audience on stage is the same way it translates to a client. So you almost have to develop this kind of way of like, you know ⁓ your intonations, your like, you know, confidence leaving pauses and stuff like that. All these little things about how to actually when you're on the call to decline to g have that sort of s belief in your own what you what you're saying and trying to drag them along with all these little things are things that I've picked up absolutely along the way and I've ⁓ same as yourself, I've seen it done really badly. And it's like ⁓ yeah. speaker-1: Believes it's a great word, you know, like if you don't believe in the work that you're presenting, like you can tell. Like the client will smell it. Yeah, and I've seen like people like, you know, even in our team who ⁓ they've presented something and I'm like, ⁓ I can tell that then their heart is not quite in that as much as it was in the thing that they just presented before. So you need to almost like be able to go through that process and and if you don't believe in it, then why don't you believe in it? And what are going to change about the work in order to believe in it? Because ⁓ if you if if a client smells that, they're gonna be like, well why why am I gonna buy this if they don't even believe in it? You know? Mm-hmm. So it's the work can be different the right way. It's it's ⁓ yeah, it's it's it's ⁓ it's huge. speaker-0: Yeah, I think there's a massive maturity as well because it's very easy when you're ⁓ starting out as a designer or whatever, you know, to get in involved in that like, you know, there's this sort of orgeastic kind of thing that goes online in terms of like hating on the clients, you know. ⁓ those clients of ours, how come they don't get design or like, you know, ⁓ I showed them like ⁓ four concepts and they've chose the worst one. I was just thinking well Well, ⁓ I hate I hate that language, you know, it's like it just don't show them work that you don't like. If you're showing them work you don't like, it's all like, you know, the i it's ⁓ it it's y ⁓ sh only show concepts like I'll I'll I'll say to a client like, you know, three c three concepts or whatever But if it's if I actually do if I'm just working on a third concept just to kind of fulfil that third con I'm like I'm only gonna present these two that I really believe in, you know? 'Cause I've done it before where I've like, you know, just there w when I start kind of if I'm in that sort of zone where I'm just I'm just chucking this thing in just to make it look as though I've worked on it more, which was like probably w what I've done like way in the past. ⁓ then I I've stopped doing that and I'm like, no, this is this is really on point and I believe in these kind of two or three concepts, then I'll present those. And and then it negates the fact of like ⁓ and I'll explain to them, I'll I'll I'll totally say which ones I think are my preferable ones. But I'll always have room in there to kind of still go, like I'm not I'm not a hundred percent on board with this one yet, but if you give me more time I can make this one work. Kind of thing. ⁓ and it and it's more of a maturity ⁓ to less bitch about the clients and more like kinda educate the clients and more open up their process and speak to them in their sort of business language as well. So another point that I normally do is when I get a brief, I'll always refer back to the brief when I'm writing the sort of script for the presentation. I'll look at their own words, what they've actually said, you know, in their presentation and then I'll kind of go, well, ⁓ you asked me to do this, so this is why I did this and this and this So that they can relate it more to like, you know, this is actually a a proper response to their needs and it's y you balance it in their own language and what they've requested in the first place, you know. rather than kind of completely devi deviating off and yeah, just picking out random colours and shapes as you said. Have have a rationale behind every single choice ⁓ that's going on within the presentation. But yeah, absolutely loved what you had to say there, Matt. Yeah, that was amazing. Nice. ⁓ yeah, no worries Matt. Thanks for that, man. That's been amazing. I'll g I'll I'll ⁓ get this podcast out once once time allows. But yeah, that was that was pure gold. You're like a greased eel, Matt, when you get going. I'll look you up next time I'm dying in Glasgow or Cork or whatever. So I found my little bench and I've had my protein bar so I I can't sit still for long 'cause I'm all powered up. ⁓ wait a minute, I've gotta sneeze. Wait a minute Okay, I paused the audio for my sneeze, but I think it's ⁓ I need to get back 'cause I'm getting hay feverish. How great was Matt. Pretty incredible insight into running an agency and ⁓ just loved it from like talking about his work on Brooklady, like phenomenal. How they got into repositioning that Distillery brand and how they've taken it on and various campaigns and And also l loved what he had to say about ⁓ presentation, ⁓ presenting ideas. ⁓ I was vigorously nodding through that. Listening back to the podcast. I wish I'd asked some more questions. I have a slight regret about butting in. It's like sometimes it's when I'm doing this podcast, I've said to folk it's like I do want to make it conversational and less frost Nixon. and but then there's points it's like Sometimes in my head I should have just like I should just like ⁓ w instead of coming in with my own anecdote, I should just get questions and get some more juice out of the the situation and probe a bit more into when the when they're when they're on fire to keep the fire ablaze. ⁓ but anyway, that's my own that's my note my own ⁓ feedback for later. But yeah, he was incredible. Thanks so much to Matt for coming on. If you don't know it's Thirstcraft. ⁓ yeah, just follow their work. They've recently posted up ⁓ illustration and branding for the Marks and Spencer's own brand range and it's phenomenal. ⁓ yeah, I just I keep I'm amazed at ⁓ how much talent they have in house. to come up with some like stunning illustration, motion work, all that stuff. It's class. ⁓ yeah, so with my thanks to Matt and my thanks to all of you guys for subscribing. We're also on the YouTube, I should tell you that as well. So if you just listen to the audio of Matt talking about the Brooklyn work, there's also the video I cut out those little bits talking about the work and I have a video of ⁓ the actual work as we talk about it. So if you wanna See that that's at ⁓ wise love.studio, the YouTube channel. Get subscribing there. There's a few other clips and anything I do post out from the podcast will be on there. ⁓ the mailing list. So the mailing list is at the bottom I of my website. I have started to get some emails out and I want to get ⁓ a regular every couple of weeks ⁓ I'll email out. Stuff about the podcast, what's going on in the studio, and yeah, maybe discounts for the shop as well. So to encourage me to get more stuff, more actual original designs up in the shop if I'm not too distracted by client work. But yeah, thanks very much for tuning in to Wise Noise. We'll be back with Wise Noise ten. I've got a graduation special. I've interviewed two Greys Common design graduates, ⁓ Charlotte and Tegan, and I and I've just I've got to get the edit together. It's a bit tricky with two people ⁓ but I'm getting the edit together and I'm kind of excited to share that one. So it's excellent to get a perspective of some graduates from this year of our Lord 2026. So stay stay tuned for that one. Sign up to the mailing list and you'll be the first to hear about it. Cheery bye.