Latest / In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch / Cochav Elkayam-Levy

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Cochav Elkayam-Levy · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

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I am Rabbi Ami Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York.
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And you're listening to, in these times,
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international law always seemed to me humanity's way to ensure
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and enshrine progress and dignity.
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But since the extreme violence that Hamas visited upon Israeli civilians on October
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7th, the silence from the international human rights community has been deafening.
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Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy, an expert in international law, gender, and
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human rights, is the founder and head of the Dvora Institute for
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Gender and Sustainability Studies.
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After October 7th, she established Israel's civil commission on October 7th,
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crimes by Hamas against women and children to document the sexual and gender-based
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violence of that horrible day.
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And campaign for international human rights organizations to recognize
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the atrocities that were committed against Israelis for her work.
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Dr. Elkayam-Levy was awarded the 2024 Israel Prize, Israel's
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highest civilian honor.
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I invited her here today to help us understand the extent of our
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enemy's calculated brutality.
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And why the international community abandoned Israel in its darkest hour.
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Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy, welcome to in These Times.
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Thank you.
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I'm glad to be here with you.
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You're one of my heroes, really a true hero of, uh, the
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Jewish people and of Israel.
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Tell us about your work and what was your life like before October 7th.
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And then I want to ask you, uh, how your life changed after October 7th.
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So just before October 7th, you're an expert on international law.
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You were teaching international law with emphasis on gender studies,
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and you had faith and belief in the international legal system.
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Exactly.
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Yes.
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Quite different life before October 7th.
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I feel like life was, was simpler then.
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Teaching about the international legal system.
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Very much involved in the Israeli protest movement for gender equality,
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teaching feminist theories of law, how the world can be better for
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women, for children, for men as well, and how can we thrive as a society.
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This was kind of a work that I miss very much miss now doing, and now
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we're documenting the sexual atrocities and the war crimes committed.
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Against women and children on October 7th.
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I imagine you remember where you were when you first began to hear the news.
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Can you describe that for us and tell us what your initial thoughts were?
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Yes.
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I was actually with my father.
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He was, uh, hospitalized that day, not because of the attack, but
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because of personal issues, health issues, and we started getting news
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from the southern part of Israel.
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Quite shocking videos and bombings and missiles, especially in the circles of
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human rights organizations here in Israel.
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We started getting a lot of information, what is going on in the south and part
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of Israel, and uh, it was shocking.
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It was deeply terrifying.
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I feel like I can't really explain the sense of existential
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threat or the fear that we felt.
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It was like nothing else.
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I remember thinking, how can I close all the windows, the doors
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and make everything sealed?
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And I had a plan in my head, where am I going to hide my four children?
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You were living where
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we live in Moin.
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In Moin, which is halfway between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.
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Exactly.
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And all of this was happening in the south, and you still
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felt physically threatened.
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Yes, we thought this is the end of it, and we didn't think it'll
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end by Hamas entering Israel.
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We thought other groups will join from the northern part, Hezbollah and
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from the central part of Israel, Jude and Samaria groups, groups within
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Israel that will start an attack as it was just really terrifying.
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People were crying for help for hours saying they're being murdered, being
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burnt alive, their children hiding in the closet and saying that they just
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watched their parents murdered and they can't find their little sister.
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And you were seeing, you were watching this on television or you were
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receiving uh, social media reports
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Both.
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I can tell you that I understood very quickly, like a week later, that actually
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the information that was circulating outside of Israel was greater than what
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we could see that these days because the Israeli public, so many had family
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members that were murdered and videos of their family members murdered that.
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The media here could not show that, but international media did report these
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atrocities that were documented by Hammas.
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Live streamed by Hamas and different medias.
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And once I started looking into these crimes, because we saw that many UN
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organizations were not responding, were not saying anything about our hostages.
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So I took upon myself to start and report and communicate to them what happened.
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But then I realized that they actually know more than us.
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Mm-hmm.
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So your expertise was, uh, the international legal system.
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So your initial reaction was to use your skills and your expertise
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to investigate the crimes and then presumably to delineate some consequences
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with result to the criminals.
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It was initially a working group, like a very small task force on communicating
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to international organizations.
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What happened To call upon international community to respond to atrocities,
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to bring back our hostages.
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To speak up for the victims.
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I have to share that I usually teach international law in ways that explain
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the importance of the human rights system that was established from the ashes of
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our Holocaust, from the ashes of World War ii, from the atrocities that happened
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then, and that the importance of it.
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And my students ask me, so why is international law, why is it important?
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Because it's not like other legal fields that you have, like enforcement.
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I explained to them the importance of values of universal values
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of giving voice to the victims.
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This is the first class that I teach, and I could see very early after the
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attack how all of these systems that.
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Are very soft law oriented.
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The softest mechanisms internationally are failing, and I couldn't believe it.
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I felt deep betrayal.
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It was a month after the attack that I was invited to represent the Israeli
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women's protest movement at the un.
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It was a virtual event, and I delivered a speech telling
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them, how come you're silent?
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We need you by our side.
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Our hostages need you.
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The victims of the sexual violence cannot see the same silence that
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is usually inflicted on victims of sexual atrocities now inflicted on
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us collectively as Israeli women.
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I tried so hard and so passionately to call upon them to respond.
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I remember asking, is there international law for Israeli women?
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Are you gonna stand by our side?
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Are you going to protect us?
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And.
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And telling them that their silence is feeling hatred and feeling denial.
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I could understand then that something is deeply wrong, that we're seeing a
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response like never before, and that we need to start document everything
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both legally and historically.
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So we have now legal preservation of the atrocities against women, children and
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families, and historical preservation of the materials, so generations.
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We'll know what happened, and we are trying to preserve the truth of October
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7th, and especially the sexual atrocities and the crimes against women and children
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that were immediately denied by Hamas.
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So in many ways, I feel like international organization actually joined Hamas
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propaganda in denying these cons
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because if you deny the truth of what happened, or even if you don't
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relate to it, you ignored in effect.
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You're giving support to the denial of the crimes.
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Exactly.
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Yes.
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You're betraying the victims.
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You're betraying the victims.
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I can't even repeat that enough.
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I felt like, what are you doing?
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There are people that have suffered, that have lost the most important thing
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in life and that the, their loved ones, their houses, their, their lives that
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have been taken hostages, how can they don't feel like we deserve any response.
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And even to this day, the union is not representing the suffering.
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Here in Israel, the suffering of the evacuated population of the victims,
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it almost became a way to either hide what is going on here or dehumanize us.
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Did that surprise you?
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Because, uh, you know, for decades, Israelis have kind of
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had a skeptical perspective of the international community, and
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in particular the United Nations.
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Was it surprising to you?
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Was it shocking?
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Was it devastating for you?
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This, this kind of wall of resistance to attend to what happened to Israeli
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women in the manner that these international institutions would've
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attended to victims that were part of any other ethnic group or country?
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It, it really deeply surprised me and shook me to my core, and I
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have to explain that I'm not naive.
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I taught about the bias of the UN system against Israel.
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I thought about it, but honestly, I didn't think in light of such horrific
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scenes that they will remain silent.
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They will remain unable to acknowledge the suffering here.
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And in many ways, I was starting to say not only dehumanize us, demonize us as
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a nation, as a people, as a country.
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Wow.
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I feel like I'm so critical of a system that I truly.
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Feel that we need as a humanity to find ways to correct.
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But I wanna say that it's not only me.
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Many of us feel surprised that they weren't able to respond to
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the atrocities that happened here.
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And not only betrayed us as a people, but betrayed humanity and humanity's values.
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When you said they, they were not able to respond effectively, or they
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denied it or they ignored it, just personally, how did that come across?
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What, give us a few examples of what you're talking about.
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So I usually, I, I speak about three responses that we wanna
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see first initially report.
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The ATROCITIES initially report that October 7th happened in the first
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statement by the International Committee on the elimination of Discrimination
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Against Women, the most important International Women's Rights Committee.
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Uh, in the first statement it released, it didn't mention October
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7th, so initially reporting.
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Acknowledging that it was an atrocity here, and not only the committee and
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the elimination of discrimination against women, other entities as well
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have failed to report October 7th.
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Secondly, you wanna see them expressing concern, condemning the crimes, expressing
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solidarity, empathy with the victims.
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It's like that's the normal response to such an atrocity.
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The third thing is to offer help.
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We ask them for help.
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I am.
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I personally sent emails to each and every UN entity that is responsible
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for the rights of women and children from my Hebrew University
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account, asking them for help.
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Telling them that we've seen some of the most, uh, aggro crimes.
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We need our help understanding what can we do as civil society at
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this point, especially in terms of understanding the sexual violence
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that had happened, not only against women, but against men as well.
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And we asked for help and they didn't respond for weeks.
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They didn't respond.
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Some of the responses that I did get weeks later were like, do you
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have proof for your allegations?
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And I remember my heart like pounding.
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So quickly that I couldn't, I felt like I cannot even speak.
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Do you have proof for your allegation?
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This is not the language of a human rights system.
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Usually they talk about, please provide information.
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We're sorry for your lost.
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How can we be of help?
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What do you need?
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This is the language of the human rights system that I taught off,
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that I believed in and that we lost.
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Did you encounter efforts to outright deny what happened, or it was
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simply a question of, uh, ignoring you and having many weeks go by?
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Yes, we saw denial.
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Even if we saw a little bit of recognition, it was very soft.
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It was even worse than that.
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When the UN decided to initiate an investigation after a
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very strong international.
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Campaign that we held and they decided to send an expert to Israel.
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I don't wanna get into the details, I'll just say that just a few weeks
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after the attack, they conditioned the investigation on also.
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Initiating a similar investigation against Israel on the same
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allegations of sexual violence.
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So the most powerful entity fighting sexual violence in conflict that
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was never engaged with Israel.
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Now a few weeks after the attack is asking his conditioning its investigation
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against what Hamas conducted on October 7th on also investigating Israel.
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I remember myself, it was early December saying how come they
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conditioned their investigation on also investigating Israel.
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It's creating this moral equivalence and also putting Israel in the same line
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with Hamas in ways that, again, how come before October 7th, deity was not even in
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communication with Israel authorities, but a few weeks after Israel's worst attacked,
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they wanna investigate us as well.
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And I remember.
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Calling different officials here in Israel and asking them, are you sure
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you wanna bring this expert to Israel?
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And then three months afterwards, it was March of 2024, a report of the UN Human
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Rights Council announces Israel and Hamas in the same line in the annual report
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on sexual violence around the world.
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It was just shocking that they did that because they couldn't, the
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report said that they couldn't find, uh, meaningful information, but
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they yet decided to include Israel.
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And then a few months later, another report saying that Israel is committing
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genocidal sexual violence, which is the worst allegation a country can face.
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So we were fearing they're using the sexual atrocities that.
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Israeli women and Israeli men were experiencing to create a moral
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equivalence or to, I don't know even how to make sense of it.
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And you think, you think this was a purposeful strategy on their part?
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I have no doubt.
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I delivered a speech at the UN Human Rights Council just a few months
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ago, and I said that exactly, yes.
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It was deliberate from the very beginning.
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It.
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That's really quite scary when you think about it.
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It's using and exploiting the international legal system to actually
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wage a kind of war against Israel and to accuse it of the very things
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that they were victimized over.
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Is that how you see it or am I exaggerating this?
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No, you're not exaggerating.
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This is what we fear.
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It was.
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Deeply hurtful just a few weeks after October 7th, and it remains a way to
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deny October 7th, and I was actually having conversation with genocide
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researchers who told me that it's a very known technique of shaming the other
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side, of making sure the allegations lose meaning over time, historically.
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So they have more of the theory to explain the use of this.
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I could just say that as civil society organizations, from the very
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beginning, we were raising a red flag.
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This was deeply concerning from the very beginning.
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We feared that it we're serving a political agenda, that the victims are
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serving a political agenda against Israel.
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So you've had a year and a half, close to two years to.
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Kind of reflect on all of this.
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Ha.
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Have you plumbed the deepest question?
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Why?
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Why, where is all this coming from?
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Wow.
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This is the hardest question I'm faced with.
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I'll say very
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clearly.
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I believe it's antisemitism.
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I believe it's Jew hatred.
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I believe it's the result of demonization of Israel for many
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years that people have been.
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I don't know.
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So deeply invested in delegitimizing our right to
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self-determination, delegitimizing our existence as Jewish state.
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You know, at the beginning I remember myself explaining to other colleagues
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to Israeli media when I was asked, why do you think they're silent?
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I remember saying, first, there is no justification for this silence,
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but perhaps it's the result of.
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Technical or procedural obstacles.
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I remember saying that un, un women don't have offices here in Israel.
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Perhaps they're stalling, they're trying to reach a consensus.
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But as time went by, as the days went by, after we saw our hostages
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being taken away and no global response, I understood that it's.
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A much deeper problem than just a procedural problem, a political problem.
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There are antisemitic sentiments that we cannot ignore and we cannot
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like to ourselves that exist.
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We've spoken before and I've always deferred to your hesitation to describe
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in detail the nature of the crimes.
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Mm-hmm.
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You've compiled.
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Mountains of information in the meantime.
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Yes.
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Can you help us understand the nature of the crimes?
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What happened?
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What did you see?
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How, how horrific was it and was it distinctive in the
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animals of human civilization?
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It's still very hard for me to describe it, not like in the
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beginning that it's still very hard.
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Uh, it's also still very hard to continue doing this for over a year and a half now.
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Um, we're seeing videos of bodies taken out of the rubbles, naked,
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handcuffed bodies that were found, for instance, burnt in the area of, um.
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The genitals,
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uh, we see abused bodies, women that were shot in their genitalia.
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Um,
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I can continue describing mutilation of bodies.
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In one case, we have a video of a, a. For women that was, uh, burnt.
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And then you see the lower part of her body naked.
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Uh, we have high testimonies that people that share what they saw,
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uh, testimonies from Shura, from the morgue of the condition of the bodies
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and how they were found, especially women's bodies that were shot in
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the face, shot in there, as I said.
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Um, and also men.
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Um, and I wanna emphasize that we are.
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Seeing since October 7th, um, more and more evidence that emerge on a daily basis
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from those who returned from captivity and the share bravely what they have suffered,
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the torture that they have suffered,
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the hostages who are coming back, they report the same
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type of assaults against them.
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Similar assaults of sexual violence of men needing to shave their bodies, men being
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abused, sexually abused men and women that were sexually abused in different ways.
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Some of them were able to give, uh, testimonies for the world to heal,
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like amid Sona and like other hostages.
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Um, but I can tell you that new information is continuing to emerge even
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of first responders that didn't feel.
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That they're able to share what they were filming or taking photos
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of, and now they, they come to us and they share this information.
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We took upon ourselves not only to collect information, but to analyze it.
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So we bear witness to many of these violent materials to make
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sure we report accurately to international bodies, to international
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organizations, to global leaders.
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For them to know the truth and for them to know that we're doing this work.
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To make sure these crimes are not denied and are not buried.
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So when you present this mountain of evidence, how can these
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international bodies continue to claim that there's not enough proof?
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I can say that from the very beginning we found those who were
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determined to share the truth.
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We find, uh, organizations around the world and leaders around the
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world that have legally recognized, uh, the sexual atrocities.
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It happened outside the un and as I said, with pressure,
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also, the un responded in, um.
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Quite short report, uh, but an important one on the sexual atrocities.
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So since then we've seen more recognition and I think now what
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you need to realize is that the legal battlefield is just beginning.
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So we saw formal recognition, but the legal procedures are just beginning
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around the world of the prosecution of October 7th in different legal system
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domestically and internationally.
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So the.
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The battle now is for legal recognition.
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Within those organizations,
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are there international bodies that are friendly to, uh, Israel that you, you
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were pleased by their response or even surprised by their response for the good.
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I think the UN Special Rapporteur on torture has made an important effort to
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recognize the torture of the hostages.
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She released a report on February 6th, 2025, a very important report,
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recognizing the torture of the hostages and their families, and it
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kind of relates to what we found.
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Remember Rabbi Harris that I shared that while documenting the sexual
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atrocities, we also found repeating patterns of abuse of families, of torture
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families that we started documenting and understood at a certain point
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that it has no legal definition, and that Hamas was actually not randomly
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executing families, but actually very.
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Intentionally targeting families in a similar ways, and we
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released a report about it.
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We call it KIN as in familial relations, and cited in the system of it.
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So they had a specific aim to wipe out entire families.
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To wipe out and torture families.
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I wanna explain.
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So while we were searching for the videos of women and children, we
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started seeing videos that Hamas took themselves while entering the houses.
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And then you see entire families.
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Being abused.
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And, uh, for instance, um, in, in one case is Deon family.
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So the terrorist entered, uh, the house and you see the father covered
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with blood and we know they just murdered his eldest daughter Mayan.
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And the house is covered with balloons of her 18th birthday and
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her little siblings are sitting on the floor crying and begging them.
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The, the terrorists to not to hurt them and or to, were asking about their
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sister and the mother is screaming, this didn't happen, this didn't happen.
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And the father is looking, just shocked.
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And I found myself physically unable to document it.
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And I saw everything really.
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And I mean, I saw everything.
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I saw so many things, but the videos of the families.
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We're so horrific we're, we're so, uh, painful.
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I dunno how to explain it.
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I often say that if there is hell, this is what it looks like, someone abusing
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your loved ones in front of each other.
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So that was part of the cruelty to, to do it in front of
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family members and loved ones.
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Exactly.
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They murdered family members in front of one another, but made sure in some cases
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they leave family members alive to tell.
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One of the patterns that we saw is actually Hamas using the social
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media of the victims themselves.
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It's something that is quite too unique to October 7th and that it
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wasn't one creative terrorist that thought this would be extremely.
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Cruel to send this image of a son of a murdered son to his mother or
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from the Facebook of the victims to the entire family to see.
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So the fact that we were seeing this repeatedly again and again
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and again across the region of the attack, made us understood that it
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was intentional that families were the targets of Hamas, that this was
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family targeted terror was very clear.
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They separated family members.
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In one video, you see a mom separated from her son and she's begging them to
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let him stay, and I can't take out of my head her hand reaching out to him.
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And so many of the testimonies that we took since our families sharing.
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Stories of separation and how painful was their separation from their loved ones.
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So the separation of family member keeps repeating even
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now, I wanna give an example.
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When one of the Horn Brothers returned from captivity, when Hil
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was returned, we immediately said.
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To ourselves.
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Oh, they separated them.
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And then a week later, Hamas releases a video of their separation.
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So they understood that there is a distinct cruelty in torturing
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family that looks very different from the torture of an individual.
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It looks very different.
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It's very traumatizing, and we understood that there is no.
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Um, crime against it or crime describing it.
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When we are watching these videos, we feel horrified, but gradually we understood
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that other terrorist groups are watching this family targeted terror and are.
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Seeing the potential and inspiring them to act similarly around the world.
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As I said, these videos show a very unique form of violence in ways
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that, my fear is that it'll be copied in other places around the world.
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And I can tell you one of the most important things that I feel that we're
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doing is giving language to the victims to describe what they've been through.
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I hand, uh, a photo of her 19 old, um, uh, girl that was taking in captivity.
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And you, there is a video of her, one of the hardest that you see her begging
29:26
from captivity for them to save her.
29:28
And then the end of the video, you see her body.
29:31
And so our father called me after.
29:35
A year and they told me, Cochav, you know, I heard you on the news,
29:39
uh, explaining how it's different to witness your loved one being murdered.
29:45
And, um, and I suddenly understood, I've been through
29:48
how I've had two heart attacks.
29:50
I, I can't recover.
29:53
But suddenly I understood that I'm, I'm not crazy.
29:56
There is something different about seeing your loved one murdered and
29:59
I can't take her image from my mind.
30:03
So it's just for me, it keeps me motivated in exposing this and
30:09
exposing what, what happened then
30:12
you mentioned, um, that they have opened a doorway to hell.
30:18
Uh, what, what does it say about the human condition?
30:21
You've seen what most of us have never seen, never imagined, never even want
30:26
to see, and you forced yourself to do it, and you've done it out of all of the
30:32
great important personal and legal and ethical, uh, obligations that you think
30:39
you have, but you've also learned a lot in the course of time on human nature.
30:44
What do you think this says about human nature?
30:48
I feel like I'm still shocked by the evil that we are seeing
30:57
and continuing to document.
30:59
I still can't fully understand it.
31:07
I do want to remember that so many Holocaust survivors have
31:11
talk about it for so long.
31:13
It was hard for us to believe, but today, I feel like, and I
31:18
understand the Holocaust better.
31:20
I dunno if it makes sense, but I've, I've read so many books, I've read
31:26
everything since I was a little girl to understand this better.
31:30
But I think only after October 7th I can more deeply understand that
31:37
this kind of evil exists again.
31:40
I, I. I dunno why this kind of evil has surprised me, but it,
31:46
it is very, very surprising.
31:49
It's not even, you know, we talk about sexual violence.
31:51
It's not sexual violence, it's sexual torture.
31:54
What we're seeing, and one other thing that I think is important to
31:59
also recognize and acknowledge is that similar atrocities have happened
32:04
in other places around the world that was never recognized as such.
32:08
So I had a. The opportunity to meet with amazing people like Nadia Wa.
32:13
She has been the Nobel Prize winner.
32:16
Uh, she revealed the sexual atrocities against, uh, the
32:19
Yazidi community, Yazidi women.
32:22
And I remember sharing with her the kind of atrocities that we saw Hamas
32:26
committing, but also about the family aspects, sharing with her that we're
32:30
researching this torture of families.
32:32
And she immediately looked at me and she said, koha, please, please
32:35
mention that it happened to us.
32:38
And we did.
32:39
The report that we wrote also refers to how Yazidi women and the Zdi community
32:44
was torture in familial settings.
32:47
And then we sent the report, one of its draft to Professor David Crane.
32:51
He was the head of the International Tribunal in Sierra Leon, the
32:55
founder, hand out of this tribunal.
32:57
And he immediately responded.
32:58
Koha mentioned that it happened in Sierra Leon.
33:02
We did.
33:03
So for me, the ability to echo that these kinds of atrocities have been
33:11
happening around the world with no response, with no one seeing this.
33:14
I mean, many ways people ask me, so why do you think that you recognize
33:19
that now that you identified this now?
33:22
And as you said earlier, it's that Hamas allowed us to, it's this doorway or window
33:29
to hell to see it and to see not only hear testimonies, but actually seeing
33:38
again and again and again, these videos.
33:41
As things heartbreaking and as, and as I said, the, the fact that we
33:45
weren't physically able to document it made me understand that we're seeing
33:50
a very distinct form of cruelty.
33:54
But I do want to continue to believe in the goodness of people, and I feel like
34:00
we're fighting to believe that things can be better and will be better specifically,
34:06
I think for our children not to lose hope.
34:09
For them.
34:10
I don't think we have the privilege of losing hope in humanity, losing
34:14
hope, in, in believing that the reality that we're seeing now will get better.
34:23
And I still, I really insist in believing that, um,
34:29
I don't know the goodness of people.
34:32
Do you find moments of, uh, joy.
34:35
Relief in the last, uh, year and a half, or is this all consuming for you?
34:41
If I hadn't found the moments of joy and relief, I think I wouldn't have
34:45
been able to continue doing that.
34:47
First of all, my children, I, I have to say that the time that
34:51
I spend with them is healing for me, especially my little one.
34:55
He's now over three, and he was very little when October 7th happened.
35:01
He was not even two, so.
35:04
I feel like at the time I'm spending with him and with my family is really providing
35:09
me this kind of joy and, and hope if my 15-year-old, uh, boy is very, you know,
35:18
you see the youth here in Israel very much enthusiastic in changing the reality,
35:25
taking part in making things better.
35:27
So that brings me joy.
35:31
Uh, we also have.
35:32
If I'm looking at our work, I wouldn't have been able to continue
35:36
doing this if we hadn't seen impact.
35:40
After we published, for instance, the IDE report, three weeks later, the Ministry
35:47
of Justice Legal Aid Department contacted us and said they've been representing
35:53
families of October 7th and I, I didn't even think that the report would be.
35:59
Very useful here in Israel, but they called us and they said, they already
36:02
submitted our report to court, especially in cases of families that Hamma sent them
36:09
videos and images of their loved ones murders through WhatsApp or Facebook,
36:14
and they're trying to make sure those families receive recognition and as.
36:19
Terror victims, despite the fact that they weren't physically at the site.
36:23
So when we are now joining these procedures to make sure these families
36:27
receive compensation, and for me, I remember after finishing drafting
36:32
this report, I said that I'm not sure I can continue doing this.
36:36
But then three weeks later, seeing the impact that it has on families
36:41
here in Israel has meant the world.
36:44
And, um.
36:46
Yeah.
36:47
I feel like we're doing a work that is so important that it just keeps me going.
36:55
I assume that you've spoken frequently and have met, uh, hostages who
37:01
have returned and victims who are in the process of recovery.
37:07
Yeah.
37:08
What is that recovery like?
37:11
Are you optimistic that most people will still be able to find some kind
37:18
of peace and live productive lives?
37:22
Oh, that's a difficult question.
37:23
I think it's very different for each of the victims.
37:28
You know, uh, when we take testimonies, one of the last questions we ask is,
37:32
what does justice look like for you?
37:35
And each and every person has a different answer, and each and every
37:40
person has different perspective on his or her recovery or what
37:48
could change things for them.
37:50
Some of them say that they want recognition.
37:55
Some of them say that they need Israel and Israel leaders to take responsibility
38:01
for what happened on October 7th.
38:04
I wanna say that each victims bring different life experiences to, to what
38:11
happened and different abilities to recover or to see a better future.
38:17
But I do believe that many of them find strength and find very
38:23
supportive circles around them.
38:25
That is keeping me personally very hopeful.
38:29
It's like after the Holocaust people found purposeness or life stronger than
38:34
anything that has happened to them.
38:37
Some of them wanna bring children.
38:39
Some of the hostages did bring more children after returning from captivity.
38:43
So I think it's the power of life that keeps many of them going.
38:49
And my last question to you is where to now, koha What, what, what are your
38:54
plans, uh, what are your objectives in your work for the year to come?
38:59
So we're planning on releasing a second report on the sexual atrocities,
39:04
and that's one of the hardest reports that I've ever written.
39:09
So we have a new team working on that 24 7, and I'm sure that we're going to see.
39:17
You know what?
39:18
I'm very hopeful that much of this work is going to be used for the prosecution
39:23
of those responsible for October seven.
39:25
Those from Hamas who led these atrocities, and as I said, around
39:30
the world, we've been to Washington DC and we met with very determined.
39:37
I'll say individuals that are working to bring justice to what happened and to
39:42
make sure the victims are compensated, to make sure the world knows what happened.
39:47
And I feel like we're going to have a very critical role in that.
39:52
You know, what keeps me going, as I said, is the fact that, uh, we're
39:55
meeting victims again and again.
39:58
And for me to hear them saying.
40:03
Thank you for recognizing what happened.
40:05
Thank you for understanding.
40:08
Um, for me it means the world.
40:11
Dr. Cochav Elkayam-Levy, "Cochav" in Hebrew means a star.
40:16
You're a brilliant star in the constellation of Jewish
40:21
life and in the world itself.
40:24
And so.
40:26
On behalf of all of us, all of us, of course, the Jewish people, but
40:30
anyone who cares about justice and goodness and morality and law, we
40:35
thank you, uh, for what you have done and what you will do in the future.
40:40
And we wish you, uh, not only luck and.
40:46
Good fortune, but also that you find great satisfaction and
40:51
peace and tranquility as well.
40:54
Thank you so much.
40:55
Thank you so much, rabbi.
41:02
In speaking with Cochav Elkayam-Levy, I feel a powerful
41:07
mixture of pride and anger, pride.
41:11
This hero of our people is so determined to compile the evidence of human
41:16
barbarism and depravity for the sake of the dignity of the deceased and the
41:20
survivors, as well as ensuring that there is documentation of these crimes
41:26
for the current and future generations.
41:28
It is agonizing for her nearly two years later.
41:33
It is still difficult for Dr. Elkayam-Levy to describe the human depravity that
41:38
she willingly exposes herself to.
41:41
Every time I hear her speak about these crimes, I hear the tremors in her
41:46
voice and see the tears in her eyes.
41:50
I feel pride that Dr. Elkayam-Levy persists doggedly because she cares
41:56
about all human beings and feels a unique responsibility to protect the
42:00
especially vulnerable children, families, and women brutally assaulted in ways
42:07
that history has not seen before.
42:10
She even developed a new term "kinocide" to describe Hamas',
42:14
systematic torturing of Jewish families.
42:18
I feel pride that this brilliant international lawyer, single-handedly
42:23
stands in front of duplicitous, hypocritical so-called human
42:27
rights activists and demands that they live up to their stated
42:32
values when it comes to Israelis.
42:35
But I also feel anger.
42:38
Actually, it's more than anger.
42:41
It's a kind of rage that comes upon me regularly.
42:45
Since October 7th, I experience intense resentment at the pretense
42:50
and deceit of those who claim to be enforcers of human rights.
42:56
I know that many people around the world are uniquely sensitive
42:59
to the concept of justice.
43:01
I'm one of them.
43:03
I too studied international law during my three years at
43:06
the London School of Economics.
43:08
I took every class I could with one of the world's greatest experts.
43:12
She later served as a judge on the International Court of Justice
43:16
and became its president in 2006.
43:19
She was one of those teachers that every student hopes to have who
43:23
made a lasting impact on my life.
43:26
I was enraptured by the concept of international law.
43:29
It seemed to me that this was humanity's way to ensure progress in human dignity.
43:35
And so this law fair that Koha described the purposeful use of international
43:42
law to accuse the Jewish people, put us in the dock and leave us defenseless.
43:47
It's exasperating for me because I bought into the idea that law.
43:53
Is the basic building block of a free society, and that justice is universal.
44:00
We do not have different standards for different people.
44:03
Jewish women are equally entitled to human rights as every other woman.
44:08
The perversion of the sacred concept of justice to continue the centuries
44:11
old persecution, not only of Jews, but of Judaism itself infuriates me.
44:18
It undermines my faith in humanity itself.
44:21
It sobers me.
44:23
That as a species, we have not made as much progress as we would like or
44:27
think we have made over and over again.
44:31
I ask experts of different disciplines, where's all this coming from?
44:36
Why the double standards when it comes to Israel?
44:40
Why do university administrators see so clearly the moral issues when every
44:45
other minority is targeted, but somehow targeting Jews is morally opaque to them?
44:52
And over and over I get this kind of befuddled response that even the most
44:56
brilliant people can't figure out and eventually, reluctantly, and even against
45:03
their will, they conclude that it is connected somehow to the centuries old
45:10
animosity towards Jews, that there's just something about the Jews, or at
45:16
least the 90% of Jews who support Israel.
45:19
That prevents clear thinking and empathy.
45:23
This hatred of Jews is exceedingly dangerous, of course,
45:26
first and foremost to Jews.
45:29
But the ironclad law of history is that what starts with
45:33
Jews never ends with Jews.
45:36
Jew hatred blinds the hater and perverts their values, thus corrupting every
45:42
institution and society that tolerates it.
45:46
Look at those universities whose reputations were built up over centuries.
45:51
How far and how dramatically, and how quickly their reputations have collapsed.
45:58
The Washington Post, the BBC, the New York Times, where once the
46:01
places to ensure that democracy did not die in darkness where we could
46:06
receive all the news fit to print.
46:09
They are now filled with fake news propaganda and even blood libels.
46:14
International legal institutions and courts have proven to be political
46:17
bodies that bend the law to their own political objectives, to the enduring
46:22
shame of these courts and to the very concept of justice and international
46:27
norms observing the failure of so many institutions since October 7th.
46:33
I often think of that poem by William Butler, Yates.
46:37
Things fall apart.
46:39
The center cannot hold.
46:41
Mere anarchy is loose upon the world.
46:45
The ceremony of innocence is drowned, the best lack all conviction.
46:49
While the worst are full of passionate intensity, the entire international
46:55
system is working against us as a people.
46:59
This is what Cochav Elkayam-Levy concluded rather than shrug her shoulders and go
47:04
back to the classroom or even say, what would be completely understandable to me.
47:10
I've done my part I can't do anymore.
47:12
It's too painful.
47:14
Let someone else carry the torch rather than this Dr. Elkayam-Levy persists.
47:22
And for this, every Jew should be grateful.
47:26
Every person who cares about justice should revere her.
47:31
And every decent human being should honor her
47:39
Until next time.
47:41
This is in these times.