Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / Shaye Groves - True Crime Fan Turned Murderer

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Shaye Groves - True Crime Fan Turned Murderer · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: What started as an intense relationship between two young parents
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: quickly spiraled into one of the most disturbing murder cases
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: the UK has seen in recent years. Shay Groves watched
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: true crime obsessively, studied killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: and turned her bedroom into a shrine of murder. Then
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: one night, she became the very thing she idolized, brutally
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: stabbing her boyfriend to death as he lay asleep in bed.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: This is the story of Shay Groves and Frankie Fitzgerald.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcast.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: The following podcast material intended for a mature audiences. I
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: don't know why, but the coffee's hitting extra good this morning.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: It does every morning for you, doesn't it.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: But it's extra good, extra good, extra good.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I got my green tea steam in a way I
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: haven't even taken a sip.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Theres some serious steam billowing off that story. For interrupting, it's.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Gonna burn my tongue, so yeah.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: That is cooking. Holy shit, Wow, it's calling my name though.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: You're gonna melt that foam all right? Off the microphone
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: if you're not careful, maybe maybe this is an interesting case.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: We got some more true crime obsessed persons going to
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: the dark side.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, usually I ask, well, what are we covering?
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: And I have your intro like when everyone else is
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: hearing the intro is when I heard what we were
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: covering for the first time too.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, typically I give you like an elevator pitch of
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: the story. Yeah, like I'll give you like like what
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: you guys heard on the intro. I'll usually give Nicole
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: like that, or maybe once or two sentences more like
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: a day before we actually record.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Well, I think sometimes you also have to get it
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: off your chest lately.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I do. Sometimes I do. I'm like, holy shit,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: this is gonna be quite the case. Guess what we're doing.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: And then yeah, I need like someone to vent to
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: for a moment. But I try to keep it like
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: to a minimum when I talk to you about still.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is gonna be fascinating though, because I don't know,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: we like our world is pretty pretty true crime heavy.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: You don't say, and yeah, I haven't really. I can't
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: say that I've ever felt the need to replicate anything.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I agree. I we'll talk all about that post show
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: near the end, Like at the end of the episode,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: we'll go through some of that sort of stuff with
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: the true crime world and the boundaries, I guess is
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: a good way to put it. But I can tell
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: you that there is one one line that a lot
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: of people do cross that I'm completely, actually okay with,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: and that's stepping into the world of signing up over
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: in our patreons.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Gosh, I'm like, is he actually segueing that way?
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Yes? I am.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, that was good, but also cringe.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: I know, but I did it. So over on Patreon,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: we have a few people who signed up and they're
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: getting that behind the scenes access and the exclusive episode
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: that comes out at the end of every month. Not
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: to mention, we're actually going to be doing a live
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: here soon to get some input from our patrons in
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: you know, how we can restructure our Patreon and what
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: sort of things they want to see. So shout out
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: to Kay's, Holly Herdier and Angel Marie who all signed
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: up this week and they're getting that access to all
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: those things.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Awesome right on. Thank you very much.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I hadn't be doing this without you, guys, so thank
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: you so so much. But let's get into the show,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: shall we.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Okay. So it started like any other Sunday morning in
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: the quiet English town of Havante, but only July seventeenth,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, something deeply unsettling was unfolding behind closed
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: doors on Botley Drive. That morning, a woman named Vicky
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: made a panicked call to police see her friend Shay
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: had just shown her something on a FaceTime call, something
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Vicky couldn't quite process until it was too clear to deny.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Shay had confessed to her about killing her boyfriend, and
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: not just that, she actually showed Vicki his body over
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: the FaceTime call. That man was her boyfriend, Fanky Frankie Fitzgerald,
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: a twenty five year old father of two from Portsmouth.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: He'd been stabbed repeatedly, and his lifeless body was lying
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: on the floor of Shay's bedroom, partially wrapped in a duvet,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: with cleaning supplies nearby and the scent of bleach already
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: filling the house.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, and she's just phone in her friend. Yeh,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: look what I did last night. Now.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: When police knocked on the door a short time later,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Shay answered in her dressing gown with cigarette in hand.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Eerily calm over the situation. Frankie's murder would soon dominate
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: headlines across the UK, not just because the brutality of
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: the crime, but because of the strange and unsettling backdrop
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: behind it all. Cichet wasn't just another woman accused of
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: a violent act. She was something. She was someone who
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: was deeply obsessed with serial killers, with true crime as
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: a personal passion. Her bedroom walls were decorated with framed
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: art of infamous murders like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Rose West. She collected knives, weapons, boasted about studying how
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: criminals covered their tracks, and even installed CCTV cameras in
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: her own bedroom, partially for her own interest and partially,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: as we'd learned, for something much more manipulative.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: To anyone who'd been in the circle, Shay was a
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: bit of an outsider, someone with a rough pass, a
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: dark esthetic, if you will, and a growing fixation on
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: violence and control. But no one could imagine that she
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: would actually go this far. Over the next several months,
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: the investigation into Frankie's death peeled back the layers of
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: the toxic and disturbing relationship between the two. It started
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: as a whole whirlwind romance, and it turned quickly into
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: something much darker, filled with jealousy, powerful games, sexual domination
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: and manipulation on both sides, and eventually it turned to
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: a fatal turning point. So before we get into who
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Shay and Frankie were and how everything went so horribly
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: wrong in this story, it helps to understand where this
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: all took place. So let's backtrack a little bit and
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: start before they even met each other. Havant is a
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: small town in Hampshire, down in the southern coast of England.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: It's not the kind of place you'd expect to see
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: in headlines about a murder. It's more known for being quiet,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: a bit tucked away with green space and family neighborhoods.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Nothing fancy, but not the kind of town where people
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: lock their doors out of fear either. Now, the specific
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: area where this story unfolds is lay Park, a large
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: residential suburb built after World War II. It was originally
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: developed to provide homes for people whose houses were destroyed
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: during the war. Over time, it's grown into a community
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: of its own, filled with a mix of council estates,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: privately owned homes, schools and parks, a quintessential, nice little town.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: One of those parks was Stouton County Park, a big
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: draw for locals, with walking trails, gardens, and a farm
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: that's popular with families. It's a place to go to
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: clear their heads, not just think about not to think
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: about any sort of violence, let's put it that way.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: But just a few streets away from those peaceful woods
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: and lakes, one of these houses would host this unsettling crime.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Shay Groves lived on Bontley Drive that house. It was
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: a house that she shared with her daughter and her
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: longtime friend Lauren. Now, to outsiders, it probably looked like
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: a typical home for a single mom, messy at times
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: and busy, but you know, nothing out of the ordinary. Inside, though,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: the house reflected something a little bit different. The walls
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: were covered in dark decor. There were also weapons on display, daggers, axes,
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: and even a coffin shaped bookshelf. Now, there's nothing wrong
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: with this decor by any means, if you ask me,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: but in this story, it was clearly a sign of
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: things to come. However, that's not always the case. For example,
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: I'm sitting just a couple feet away from a it's
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: not ceramic but a plaster gold skull on our shelf.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: So I get it.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Well, but the weapons is maybe not the best if
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: she has like Kitto's running around and stuff. Right, it
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: depends how if they're not in arms reach and stuff.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I guess, yes, definitely, it depends on how you store it.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: You can have it displayed, but you know you need
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: to have it safely displayed. Yeah, right, exactly. Now, to
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: say that she wasn't displaying these or having them out
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: of reach of her kid and stuff like that, like
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: to say that she wasn't doing it in a safe manner,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: I have no idea. So I'm not going to disregard
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: her parenting skills in that aspect. I know a few
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: of my friends who have homes just like this, completely
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: great people. They're raising kids as well, and it's a
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: completely great safe environment for you know, raising those kids. Yeah.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: So in this case though, yeah, it might have been
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: a bit of a precursor.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, so we can't judge, but for this one we can.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Well, we can't judge, and I'm not going to judge
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: on it, But in hindsight, it's like, Okay, there was
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: something else going on, maybe I don't know. It's for
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: most people ninety nine percent of the time, this has
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: not a concern. It's not a concern. Yeah. Her bedroom, though,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: was having a bunch of pictures on the walls, had
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: many pictures framed with illustrations of famous serial killers, and
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: she kept a Celtic style dagger stowed away under her
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: pillow where she slept, Whether for protection, ritual or esthetic,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: that dagger would soon be a centerpiece of this story.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: I do have to think, say, like the bedroom, though,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: if I went to someone's house and they had like
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: posters of serial killers and shit on display, that would
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: I would probably be like slightly alarmed with that.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I have no problem with people being like, oh
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: my god, you know, obsession with the occult obsession with
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: true crime. But I do personally draw the line at
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: having pictures of serial killers. Yeah, because you're no longer
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: just like obsessing over true crime in the genre, you're
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: obsessing over the killers themselves. I draw the line at that.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, okay, like maybe if it was just like
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: one and it was just like one simple little thing,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: I might be able to just pass by that. But yeah,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: there was like numerous and shit along with everything else,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: it would probably it would flag something for me.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, totally agree. Where am I here now? Right? So,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: if you met Shae Groves on a good day, you
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: might not have guessed that she was, you know, something
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: out of the ordinary, that there was something different going
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: on underneath the surface. She was a mom, She had
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: a loud laugh, She dressed in all black, and you know,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: leaned hard into the alternative esthetic tattoos, piercings, have a eyeliner,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: the works. I mean, I've got tattoos all over me.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: I understand. To some she was just a goth girl
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: who never really outgrew the style like her parents said
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: she would one day. But the truth was a lot
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: more complicated. Shay grew up with a rough hand in life.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: She was born in nineteen ninety six, and from a
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: young age things were far from stable. She experienced physical
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: and sexual abuse as a child, trauma that's struck stuck
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: with her well into adulthood. By the time she was
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: a teenager, she was already struggling with serious mental health issues.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: In fact, she even started self harming at just thirteen
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: years old, and around the same time she was diagnosed
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: with bipolar disorder. Later doctors would also identify complex PTSD,
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: likely connected to everything she went through growing up.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: At school, Shye didn't exactly fit in. She was partially
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: deaf and wore a hearing aid, which made her an
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: easy target for bullies.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, which is so wrong it is.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: On top of that, she leaned into a dark, horror
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: inspired style. As I mentioned already, that made her stand
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: out even more. People called her weird, so I'm even
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: nicknamed her Chucky, after the possessed killer doll from Child's Play.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: You know that horror movie. Yeah? Yeah, and it wasn't
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: said kindly of course either. Well kids are the worst,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: though they can. They can be pretty brutal when it
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: comes to bullying and such.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Yet, yeah, if you're any sort of different, it doesn't
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: always go well in like elementary, middle school, high school.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, she wasn't one to follow rules or play
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: nice just to fit in, though. If anything, Shaye seemed
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: to embrace her role as an outsider. She was into
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: horror movies, serial killer documentaries, heavy metal, and anything that
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: made people uncomfortable. A lot of this was probably armor
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: in retrospect, a way to protect herself after being hurt
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: so many times. You know if people are calling her
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: chucky and making fun of her for looking different, why
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: not be different and own it right? It makes total sense. Yeah,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: now enterteens. In early twenty Sha bounced around a lot.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: She even ran away from home at one point and
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: ended up CouchSurfing, staying with friends or boyfriends, mostly of
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: whom sadly were reportedly abusive too. It was a cycle
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: she just couldn't seem to break. Unstable living, toxic relationships,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: drug use, and repeat. Then at twenty, she met a
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: guy named Ashley, and for a little while things looked
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: like they might turn around. She got pregnant. She had
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: a daughter in twenty seventeen, and for a short time
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: she really tried to clean her life up. She stopped
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: using drugs and started getting help for her mental health.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: She seemed almost happy at this point, but the stability
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: didn't last. Shay and Ashley eventually broke up, and she
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: found herself a single mom without a steady place to go.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: That's when she connected with Lauren, a childhood friend who
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: had also become a single mother. The two decided to
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: move in together and try to support each other while
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: raising their daughters under one roof.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, I kind of like that plan, so do I.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: From the outside, it might have looked like things were
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: getting back on track for Shae. She had a home,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: a best friend, and a daughter she adored. She even
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: posted proud mom updates on social media. But underneath it all,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: the darkness hadn't gone away. If anything, it was actually growing.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Now everyone has their thing for sure, for whether it's baking,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: or for others it's hiking or fashion reality TV. And
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: for Shae, as I mentioned, true crime was a center
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: point in her life. And honestly, we kind of already
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: touched on it, like we live in the true crime
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: world quite a bit with this p so hey hashtag relatable, right,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: But this for her was not just in the passing.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: She had Netflix on the ground, on the on in
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the background, constantly playing true crime documentaries, consistently consuming every
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: free moment of her life kind of thing. It was different.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: It became her aesthetic, her identity and yeah obsession as
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: someone who is you know, constantly diving into the true
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: crime all the time. I honestly, I can get very
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: I can get behind it to a degree that it
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: can get very, very heavy and overwhelming and breaks from
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: it are very welcome. So to say that it's on
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: all the time in the background and it's what you're
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: diving into consistently and constantly, that's a lot.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Well, I think I've mentioned this before. I've I've done
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: an eight hour road trip before where I just listened
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: to true crime in the whole time, and when I arrived,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: I was like kind of fucked up, like kind of
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: suspicious of everyone, and I don't know, my anxiety was
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: a little bit over the top, Like it didn't do
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: and it didn't do well for me.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: It weighs on a person heavily at times. Yeah, So
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: the fact that she's going through, like through all this
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: content of true crime and the amount that she's going through.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: It and assuming it maybe a bit too much.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's just enjoying it the entire time, Like
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: when I listen to stories when I'm researching, like it
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: weighs heavy on my heart, my shoulders. There's times where
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: like I need to take a break and absorb this,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Like I feel like I'm going to fucking break out
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: and cry at times, like you know what I mean,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: And she's just going and enjoying it, and like, like
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: you know what, it's different. There's a difference in the
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: way she consumes it.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not It doesn't really affect her in
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: any way, poorly, it.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Doesn't seem that way, Okay. Regardless though, things all ramped
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: up around twenty twenty now during the first COVID lockdown,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: like a lot of people, you know, stuck indoors. She
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: spent a lot of time online and deep diving in
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: to these documentaries with true crime. Where most people watch
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: out of curiosity or interests, you know, that sort of thing.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Shay seemed more fixated on the killers themselves. And that's
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: where I can no longer relate to her, because she
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: wasn't just studying the cases. She was admiring the criminals
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: and murderers. Specifically. Her bedroom slowly transformed into what can
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: only be described as a shrine. And I told you,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: there's these posters a Bundy Dahmer, Rose West, There's Charles Manson,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Eileen Warnos. They're all plastered all over her walls. It's
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: not just a couple here and there.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Holy shit. So she's going to bed and waking up
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: staring at.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: These people exactly. And these were like posters she'd buy
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: off Etsy with like blood dripping like art style, kind
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: of like, oh, graphic type art, and this is this
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: is her abode, this is her safe place. Now. Yeah,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: it didn't stop there. There was also her interest in
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: how killers got away with murder. She read about crime
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: scene cleanup alibis police procedures like she was prepping for
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: an exam. Almost She even installed the cv CCTV cameras
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: in her house, reportedly for quote safety and to record
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: intoment encounters as well, because it was also in her bedroom.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Huh okay.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Now these recordings, though, they would eventually become a tool
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: for manipulation, but we'll talk about that in a bit now.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: She claimed all of this was just her style. It
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: was her dark humor, and that you know, the art
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: wasn't real photos, just creepy looking pieces she liked. And hey,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: she's totally got a point, totally fair enough. But if
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: that were true, why did she also spend hours editing
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: videos of her sex life to reflect this dark style?
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Oh shit, so it's okay. I was wondering if this
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: was going to go that way, but and it does.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: It does. So she'd keep videos of her boyfriends and
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: you know, from these security cameras in her bedrooms, and
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: she'd keep them as quote evidence on these boyfriends. She
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: would edit them certain ways to make them look like
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: they were forcing themselves on her and such. Really, yes,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: and she would threaten to share these videos if they
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: didn't do what she wanted.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, So were they even aware they were being filmed?
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: I wonder most likely? Okay, and again we'll get into
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: a little bit more detailed about that too. How about
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: these videos and stuff? Now, this wasn't just a harmless obsession.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: It was a mindset one that glorified control, pain, and punishment.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: And the more she built her world around this aesthetic,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: the harder it became to tell where the performance ended
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: and where the real Shae began. Blurring that line. So
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: to me, it seems like Shaye was watching true crime
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: to understand wasn't sorry, watching true crime to understand victims
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: or injustice. She was taking notes more on like how
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: to become the kind of person that she was reading about.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: That's what it seems like to me.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Shaye and a friend, Lauren White, they had known each
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: other since they were ki. Lauren is the one who's
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: moved in and raising their kids together under the same roof.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: They weren't casual friends. They had history. They'd grown up together,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: They'd bonded over being a bit different even, and stayed
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: connected into adulthood. And then when both women became you know,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: single moms around the same time, it almost felt like fate.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: When they moved in together and you know, helping each
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: other out. They raised their daughters under this one roof,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: and from the outside it was a good setup, right.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Their daughters were close, They're co parenting, supporting each other
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: there for when they need it. They were more like
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: sisters their daughters more than playmates. Okay, Now, she had
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: always been the dominant one in this friend relationship. Lauren,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: according to multiple people who knew them, was more reserved, quiet, accommodating,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: and often would let Shade kind of dominate the dynamic
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: or make decisions between the two of them. Now, over time, though,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: that dynamic starts to look a little bit less like
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: friendship and a lot more like control. Would do things
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: for Shay that most people wouldn't ask of a roommate,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: let alone expect. Some were small things, should you know,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: wash her clothes, roll her cigarettes for her, But it
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: went a little further. Lauren would even put her socks
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: on for her.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's gone too far. Yeah yeah.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't even just helping out. It became routine.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: So these things were no longer like hey, could you
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: do my laundry for me today? I'm busy. It was like, hey,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: why didn't you do my laundry for me? Like it's
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: sitting there waiting for you go do it.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: It's not help like it's not healthy anymore.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: No, it's becoming you do my laundry. Yeah, you know
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: what I mean. Lauren was like a more of a
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: living assistant, more than an equal partner in this household
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: kind of thing. Now, there were also moments of psychological aggression.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: At least one instant was later brought up in court
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: when Shay attacked Lauren with a pair of nail clippers,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: cutting her badly enough to draw some blood. Now, Shaye
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: apparently did stop when she realized she'd gone too far.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: But again, one of those things is that it's like, okay,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: in hindsight, red flag. Well, I mean, it's a red
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: flag if your friend attack.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: She's it's almost like thankful that she's realized she went
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: too far. But I mean, she'd already she's already.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Been going too far exactly. So then came the surveillance
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: that I already mentioned. By the time the murder happened,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Lauren was already stuck in a relationship that was less
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: about friendship and more about fear. So fast forwarding a
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: bit to the actual events of the murder, Shay woke
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: her friend up after killing Frankie and asked her to
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: help clean up all of the blood. Lauren didn't scream
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: or run. She helped. She helped move the body, She
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: helped clean the room, and when she hesitated at all,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Shay reminded her, you're already involved. Now if I go down,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: you go down to and she like, you're on fucking camera.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Oh here cleaning up a body. You're fucked.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: That's fucking terrifying because she probably also is worried that
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: her friend will.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Do that to her, exactly, so she's most likely terrified. Goe.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: All it takes is ten seconds for her to touch
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the body, like, because she's panic. Okay, what do I do? Yeah, okay,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: I'll help you move real quick while I'm still thinking.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: And now it's like, well, you're on camera moving the body.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, Okay, this is real messed up already, Okay.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: And Shane knew that she could use these security footage
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: and things to manipulate people like that if you don't
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: do as I say, you know, I'll show this footage
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: to someone, whether it's your boyfriend, authorities or public or
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: your work, who knows.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: But and like, sitting back listening, I'm kind of like, well,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: look at all the shit that it's going to be
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: showing how terrible she is. Right, So I feel like
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: the friend could still get away with stuff at this point,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: you know, if they like saw all the footage and
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: stuff of the manipulation and everything. But then it's so
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: hard to in the moment, you know, realize that one
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: hundred percent.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah now. But in the eyes of the law when
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: they arrived later on, it was enough to get Lauren
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: arrested there on the spot, and she was actually even
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: charged with failing to provide a pin code to her phone.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: She was seen basically as a possible accomplice in the crime,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: but once investigators pieced together the power dynamic and got
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Lauren's full account, those charges were eventually dropped, and even Shay,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: when questioned, admitted that Lauren had nothing to do with
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: the murder itself. She hadn't been in the room when
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: it happened. She hadn't planned it. She just caught in
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: the blast radius sort of thing.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, good.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: So was she a co conspirator of Shay's No? But
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: was she Was she more of a victim? Yeah? Probably?
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say so.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now I think we've gone deep enough into these
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: these two and in the crime itself. Let's back up
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: a little bit more and let's take a look at Frankie,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: who is the victim of the story. Frankie was a
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: twenty five year old father of two living in Portsmouth,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: trying to navigate life like a lot of young dads
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: would do, balancing responsibility, social life, and relationships that, of course,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: didn't always work out. People who knew Frankie described him
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: as funny, charming, and someone who could diffuse a tense
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: moment with humor. He was known to be easygoing, the
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: kind of guy who didn't like conflict and rarely stayed angry.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: His ex partner, Charlene, was the mother of his children,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: and although their relationship had ended, he was still present
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: in his kids' lives. But Frankie had struggles of his
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: own He was by far a perfect human. Behind the
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: easygoing personality was someone who also dealt with instability. His
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: life wasn't always steady. Let's say. He'd reportedly been dealing
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: with substance use, including cocaine, and had a bit of
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: a reputation for partying and unpredictable behavior, especially when he
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: was under the influence. In February of twenty twenty two,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: he met Shay at a local pub, and that's when
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: everything started to shift. They clicked quickly. Both of them
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: were young parents, both had a rebellious streak, Both were
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: into rough sex, heavy partying, and pushing boundaries. For a moment,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: it probably felt like a perfect match for two people
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: who understood each other, who got each other in ways
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: that most people didn't. But as fast as they connected,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: the relationship also turned volatile. Just as fast. They began
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: dating almost immediately, and within weeks it was an intense
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: blend of sex, jealousy, fights, and making up again. There
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: was a deep mutual obsession, especially around their shared interest
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: in BDSM and knife play. So they're into some heavy,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: kinky shit and they brought knives into it as well.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, so the knife play is also involved in the bedroom.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Yes. Now. Most notably, they explored kinks together, including quote
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: not sorry quote consensual non consent, which is also known
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: as rape play. Okay, you know, so pretending to rape,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: but it's actually consent. It is consensual. So it's consensual
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: non consent. So we're pretending it's not consensual, but we're
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: planning it out prior to and making sure we're on
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: the same page and it is consensual. Okay, Okay. So
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: it's like, okay, we're all good. Okay, I'm gonna go
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: in the bedroom in ten minutes, you burst in. I'm
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: going to pretend to scream and not like it, and
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: you force yourself on me. That's the plans.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, So.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: It is consensual, but in the moment they act like
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: it's not right. Okay, just making sure I'm really clarifying
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: that because it is a very important distinction piece.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, because yeah, she's also filming this shit exactly.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she is filming this shit, which is very important
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: to remember.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Their relationship was anything but healthy. They broke up, they
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: got back together again, consistent they both accused each other
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: of cheating. They regularly went through each other's phones, The
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: fights got louder, the sex got rougher, and sometimes, and
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: somewhere along the way, the line between that consent and
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: coercion began to blur. By July, they'd only been together
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: for about five months, but the damage ran deep. Frankie
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: accused Shay of seeing her ex. Shay accused Frankie of
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: messaging other women and girls. The CCTV camera Shay had
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: in her bedroom was often used to record many of
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: their encounters now. Initially, she said it was for fun
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: to watch and even edit the footage into private videos
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: to keep for later or whatever, right, but as things
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: deteriorated between them, those recordings became something else. Entirely, she
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: edited these clips to make Frankie look like the aggressor,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: and she threatened to release them to ruin his reputation.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: At the same time, Frankie wasn't innocent in this dynamic.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Friends said that he could be intimidating and aggressive at times,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: especially when high and intoxicated. For example, he once texted
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Shay a threat, saying that if he caught her cheating,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: he'd hang her.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Oo.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was volatile.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: I mean I probably would have say something like that too.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Though, fair enough, fair enough. He was volatile, though, but
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: so was she right their fights could turn explosive, flip
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: to affection, and spiral once again. They were addicted to
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: each other, and it wasn't love. It was obsession, dependency,
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: and emotional warfare in all honesty. By the summer of
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Shay's mental health was visibly unraveling. She
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: was using cocaine more regularly, often alongside Frankie, and had
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: returned to self harming coping mechanism that she hadn't relied
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: on for years. Friends noticed her withdrawing, becoming more paranoid
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: and erratic. She told people Frankie was abusive, then begged
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: him to come back. This back and forth fuck you
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: love you sort of dynamic once again, right. She claimed
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: she was terrified him, yet she filmed him in bed
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: and made jokes about his performance. Their shared world of sex,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: secret and manipulations and violence even kept growing more and
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: more unstable. It was almost like a teeter totter going
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: back and forth, back and forth, and if you do
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: it hard enough and long enough, that teeter totter is
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: eventually going to break. Right somewhere along the line, that
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: pivot point can only take to so much. But in
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: one of the most unsettling parts of the Shay Graves
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: case isn't just the violence itself. It's how deliberately she
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: blurred these lines between what was consensual and what was not,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: especially when it came to that sex and power. So
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: he kind of already talked about it a little bit,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: but at the heart of it was a dangerous combination
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: of manipulation and performance. Shay was known for being controlling
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: in her personal relationships. It wasn't always obvious at first.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it looked like charm, sometimes vulnerability, but once someone
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: was close to her, she'd start to tighten her grip
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: on them. She wanted to know where people were, who
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: they were talking to, what they were thinking, and if
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: she didn't like the answer, she'd find a way to
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: twist the story or threaten consequences. Very much so like
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: she's doing to her boyfriend Frankie, you know with the
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: sex tapes. You know, I'll show people that you were
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: an aggressor sort of thing, or what she's doing with
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: her friend, her roommate Lauren, right through all of this.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: To me, it seems like with all the bad blood,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: all the violent sects. She was trying to build a
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: narrative around her, one where she was a victim in relationships,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: specifically right now with Frankie, and that he was a monster,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: and building a narrative that she could control. By July sixteenth,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: two thousand and two, things between Shy and Frankie were
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: nearing a boiling point. The relationship had already been volatile
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: for months, with breakups, makeups, blah blah blah, we already
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: know all that. On this day, it started with an argument,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: though Shaye accused Frankie of cheating on her again. This
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: time she'd gone through his phone, a regular ritual at
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: this point, but she claimed to find a message that
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: pushed her over the edge, a message between Frankie and
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: a girl who she said was thirteen years old. In reality,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: that girl was later confirmed to be seventeen, still a minor,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: and Frankie reportedly blocked her when she made the quote
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: thirteen comment. But at the moment, the difference between thirteen
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: and seventeen didn't really matter. Shaye wasn't interested in the context.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: The messages confirmed everything she feared and worse now in
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: her mind, Frankie wasn't just cheating he was a predator.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Fueled by alcohol, cocaine, and what she described as protective rage,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: possibly also digging up unresolved trauma from her own abuse
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: as a child in past history, Shay's anger became something
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: else entirely on its own. After a little while, she
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: went into the bedroom where Frankie now lay sleeping on
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: the bed. She grabbed one of her decorative Celtic daggers
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: that she kept under her pillow. She raised it and
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: began stabbing him in the neck. She thrust it deep,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: a forceful wound that severed his jugular vein and carotid artery.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: The first blow was a fatal blow.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like that, you're done.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even if emergency services have been called right then,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: right away. Frankly, Frankie most likely wouldn't have survived.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Lost too much blood.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, now, going through first aid training and stuff, because
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: I was a first aid attendant for a while. If
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: someone severs their jugular vein or an artery in their neck,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: they say, what you do is put your hands together
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: like you're praying right and pray. That's literally what you do.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: You pray that they survive.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: You're putting your hands together on the wound.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Well, yes, put your hands in front of your in
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: front of you right now, like your fingers pointed up.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: You're praying, right and you take your thumb and your
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: fingers and you go in the neck and you pinch
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: the artery closed. So make the motion like you're praying,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: because you're praying. You're that they survive because they're most
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: likely not.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Like, that's the only thing you can do, the only
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: thing you could do, and hopefully it works, but it
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: probably won't.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, her pinch the arteries, hope they survive, and pray
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: they survive. That's it.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Wow, she probably didn't even like was she meaning to
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: do that hit there?
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: To hit the arteries are her first blow and shit
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: like that or on her first blow? Maybe not, but
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: she probably meant to because she kept stabbing. In fact,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: she stabbed him a total of twenty two times in total, jeezuz,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: mostly to the neck and chest. The attack was frenzied
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: and she did want him dead. She made sure he
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: was dead.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, she was like you know, they say, the
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: more time someone stabs someone, it's like rage killing, and
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: she was though.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Now when that rage wore off, shade didn't panic. She
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: didn't call nine one one or an ambulance. Instead, she
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: started relying on her knowledge and began laying the groundwork
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: for a cover up.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: How the fuck would you cover this up?
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't. She tried. Okay, poorly in my opinion,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: but she tried. She sent a text to her ex
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: boyfriend inviting him over, possibly to try and create an alibi.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: She also messaged her friend Vicki, claiming Frankie had just
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: left the house, planning the seats to suggest that he's
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: alive and well outside of the home.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Then she walked down the hall and knocked on her
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: friend Lauren's door. She told her friend calmly that she'd
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: done him. Lauren followed her to the bedroom and saw
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Frankie's lifeless body lying in the room. Oh gosh, blood
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: was everywhere.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Shay, still eerily composed, told Lauren they need to clean
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: it up and figure what to do with the body. Now. Remember,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: by this point, she already has a firm grasp and
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: control over her friend Lauren.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, because right now I'm just like, uh,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: you mean, you need to go figure this shit out.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: But yeah, she's already really set the groundwork for she has,
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: she's worned to be help on her ear if.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: She can manipulate her to say, put my socks on
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, it's probably in a moment like this
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: where she's panicked and scared easily manipulate her into helping
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: her clean a murder scene.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: And I'm assuming there's just kids at home too.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Probably I didn't look into that, but probably. Yeah. Together
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: they discussed the possible options. They could bury him in
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: the garden, framing it as a suicide, you know, they
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: could dump him somewhere else, whatever they could think of. Right,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: And while this was happening, she did something that would
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: haunt the investigation. She picked up her phone and facetimed
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: her friend Vicki. She showed her friend Vicky Frankie's body
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: on camera, giggling, laughing and making jokes, showing no signs
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: of remorse after the fact, And when Vicky asked what
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: she was going to do, Shay casually said that she'd
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: clean it up and bury him, and then disturbingly, she added,
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: we're still friends, right.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: What the shit? So she thought this was just fine
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: and dandy and normal, she did, and she trusted that
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: her friend would just not say anything.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I guess either. Yeah, but that's not the case. Vicky
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: hung up the phone and did what any sane person
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: would do. She called the police. Now, when police entered
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: the house on July seventeenth, twenty twenty two, the scene
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: they walked into was nothing short of disturbing. She had
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: greeted them at the door like nothing was wrong, pink
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: RoboN cigarette in hand, acting like she was ready to
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: host a brunch or something like that, not standing over
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: a murder scene. But inside the house, the sense of
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: bleach was thick when that door was opened. It was
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: clinging to everything. It was obvious to officers that a
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: hurried clean up up was underway. Now, she didn't resist
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: to rest, she didn't even try to deny what she'd done.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: When they asked what was going on, her response was blunt.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: She said, he's dead, he's in my room. It's a mess.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: I took someone's life.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: And okay. So she's probably thinking that she's going to
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: be able to get away with this, maybe from the
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: footage or something that she has, or that he was
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: like sleeping with someone underage, or I don't know what's
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: going through her mind, but maybe those things like she
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: thinks she is. He was like worthy of this.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: We'll talk about it, Okay, Her defense is self defense.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Oh shit, yeah, but.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Well he's a sleeping man in bed.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, we'll get back to that though. Don't worry. Now,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: this was the kind of thing you'd expect to hear
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: in a movie. That's what the police thought, you know,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: not quite the suburban neighborhood. On a Sunday morning, uh huh.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: In her bedroom, police found Frankie's body laid out on
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: plastic bags, with a pillow over his and a duvet
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: partially covering him. The dagger that was the murder weapon
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: was now cleaned but still wet, sitting in the bathroom sink. Lauren,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: who had helped, you know, move the body and everything
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: clean up, you know, that sort of thing. She was
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: also arrested. Now at the time, police couldn't be sure
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: how involved she really was, and both women were taken
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: into custody. During the initial interviews, she admitted to killing Frankie,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: but immediately tried to frame it as self defense. She
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: told investigators that Frankie had flown into a rage after
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: she confronted him about the messages on his phone with
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: a minor, right, Yeah. She claimed he'd grabbed her by
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: the throat, pinned her against the headboard, and began choking her.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: She said her vision started to blur, started to get
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: tunnel vision, and she said she wasn't sure. She was
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: sure that he was going to kill her. So, in
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: that moment, pinned up against the head board of the bed,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: she claimed, she reached out blindly for something to defend herself,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: and she grabbed what she thought was her money box,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: which wh actually turned out to be the dagger she
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: kept under her pillow, the one that she slept with.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: She said she struck him in the neck by accident
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: and with what jo so happened to be the dagger.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: And then struck him twenty more times.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: By twenty one more times. But yeah, yeah, of course,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: her story quickly fell apart almost immediately. For starters, Frankie
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: had been lying down when the attack began. The position
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: of his body and the wound patterns and the autopsy
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: findings didn't support the idea of a struggle whatsoever. In fact,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: he hadn't even fought back. There were no defensive wounds.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: According to the medical examiner, he was likely asleep when
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: he was stabbed.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Then there was the footage the security cameras in the bedroom.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Thanks to her CCTV system, the police had access to
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: unedited recordings of her interactions with Frankie. Those videos, many
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: of which had been selectively edited by Shay, you know,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: the sexual encounter ones and stuff.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: To make him seem like a monster exactly.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: The raw files that she still had and everything they
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: panted a much different story. They showed rough sex, yes,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: but they showed it was consensual. There was no screaming,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: no struggling, no signs of fear. And when a full
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: conversation was restored off like the cards and the files,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: it was clear that she had cut the parts where
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: they were talking about what was going to happen beforehand,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: the precursor conversation, so that was even captured exactly now.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: Her alibi text that she sent right after killing killing
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Frankie also raised some red flags. She texted Vicki saying
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Frankie had left the house, tried to invite her ex
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: over all obvious attempts to rewrite the timeline. And if
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: she had actually acted in self defense like she claimed,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: then why were these conversations even happening in the first place,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: if he attacked you and you acted in self defense,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: why after his death are you inviting your ex over
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: and telling your friend that Frankie's actually left the house.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And did she just forget that she was recorded
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: all this shit at that time too? I don't know,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: because that seems weird to me.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: I think in her mind, she was just going to
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: get away with it and didn't expect the police to
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: show up at her door, didn't expect her friend to
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: call police, and then she just started spewing bullshit and
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: the evidence was too much. She didn't have time to
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: try and hide it. And I have a feeling even
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: if she did get time to try and hide it,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: she would have hit it very poorly.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and see that this is questionable to me because
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: someone who is like a true crime fanatic and like
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: consumed it so much, I just feel like she should
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: know what the fuck's about to happen here.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, not only that she didn't. She wasn't just
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: a fanatic, She wasn't just consuming it so much, she
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: was literally studying it.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but she thought she could easily get away with this.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: That doesn't make any.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Sense, right, And she was going to fucking bury him
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: in her backyard garden. Yeah, and think she's going to
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: get away with it. That's rule number one. You don't
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: bury someone in your fucking backyard.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's going to come back to you at some
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: point exactly. Maybe not right away, but it will one
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: hundred percent.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Just saying, not saying that you should study and do
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: those things. Just obviously get rid of evidence. Right, you
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: do a thing, you get rid of evidence. That's one
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: O one.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: But I mean when she was consuming maybe she was
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: consuming other pieces, right, just the pieces about like the
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: the murderers and the no bad people.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: She was specifically studying, you know, police files and how
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: they capture people, how people get away with it, crime
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: scene clean up, all those things.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, well then what the shit?
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, so she was studying those things, yet she still
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: had CCTV footage in her home, She still called and
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: facetimed a friend. She also involved another person and was
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: going to bury him in the backyard, all within hours
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: of this happening. Yeah, you have those flaws already there.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I'm kind of shocked.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll just say that anytime we cover a true
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: crime fan doing a murder, it always surprises me because
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: there have been other ones and it surprises me on
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: how bad they do.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: But also I feel like doing the act might actually
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: play a toll on you and your mind and stuff,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: and then you're not thinking clearly or something. I don't know.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to process this too and understand it, but yeah,
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: You have a good point. Maybe they're just fucking wannabes,
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: you know, and.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: Then they actually do it and it's like, holy shit, Yeah.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Like Ted Bundy or something like that is a true
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: fucking psychopath, you know. They can actually think clearly and
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: calmly and make these decisions to protect themselves, where these
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: people are just fucking wannabes and don't have that capability
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: of thinking that way. That's actually a really good point.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it could be high five on that one. Oh
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: my gosh.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Okay. Back at the police station, Lauren was questioned as well.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: At first, she wouldn't give up the pin code to
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: her phone, which led her being charged arge with a
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: non compliance under digital investigation laws. But as time passed,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: the investigators piece things together and it became clear Lauren
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: hadn't be involved in the murder itself. She'd helped after
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: the fact, Yes, under what she later described as intense fear,
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: feared that if she didn't help clean up Sha would
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: hurt her too, which totally understand. The charges against Lauren
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: were eventually dropped, especially after she agreed to testify and
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: tell the full truth in court.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's good.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, she was formally charged with murder, but she continued
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: to insist that she wasn't the killer. Of course, who
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: the fuck was then, Well, she wasn't saying that she
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: wasn't the killer.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: She was saying.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Reason she's saying that she's not a killer. I'm not
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: a killer. It was self defense. Yeah, So she maintained
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: that this was self defense and that her story. That
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: was her story, and she's sticking to it. Behind the scenes, though,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: both the prosecution and the defense were building very different narratives,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: and each one relied not just from the crime itself,
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: but on who Shay was and how she'd spent the years,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: you know, obsessing over serial killers. The trial was scheduled
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: to begin in early January twenty twenty three at Winchester
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Crown Court, the very same court room in fact, where
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Shay's so called one of her idols. Rose West had
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: once been convicted decades earlier. Dang, she probably loves that
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: most likely, And yeah, that coincidence wasn't lost on anyone now.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: The defense strategy Shay's legal team leaned into her claims
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: of abuse heavily. In fact, they described her as a traumatized,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: vulnerable woman with a long history of mental health struggles,
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: including bipolar disorder complex PTSD, and they pointed to her childhood,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: the abuse she'd endured growing up in the pattern of
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: toxic relationships that followed her into adulthood. Their goal was
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: to reframe Shae not as a cold bloody killer, but
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: as a woman pushed to the edge by the violent
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: and unstable partner. They submitted edited videos that Shade put together.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: The edited CCTV footage that appeared to show Frankie being
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: physically aggressive with Shade during sex, what the shit?
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: The ones taken out of context she specifically edited together
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: to make him look like he was raping her and
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: beating her and all this sort of stuff.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: No, that is okay now.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: In one clip even he reportedly made a chilling comment
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: quote that was a bit rapie, wasn't it.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Huh?
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: The defense used this as evidence of a relationship that
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: had turned dangerous and exploitative. Shay also testified that she
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: discovered the messages between Frankie and someone claiming to be
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: a thirteen year old girl. On that this discovery, paired
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: with the years of trauma, had triggered a panic response.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: She said that she was choked, pinned to the bed,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: and truly feared for her life.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Wow, Cay, do we know for sure Frankie was cheating
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: with this girl?
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they both were, by the sounds of it, Okay,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: don't know for sure, by what sounds of it those
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: messages with the seventeen year old, Yes, were true, But
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know the context of these messages. I don't
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: know if it was like flirting, if maybe he didn't
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: know her age. I don't know if they were sexting.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they were meeting up the message. Honestly,
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: it was in court, So it seems true to me, Okay,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: but I don't know the facts behind it. And it
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: does seem again to me that they were both cheating.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: And yeah, like it wasn't a healthy relationship.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: No, it was far from healthy. Yeah, and Frankie was
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: far from a healthy partner, but he was not a murderer,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: and he was not abusive per.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Se, right, because yeah, they were no good for each
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: other at all.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: No, because well maybe he was abusive. I don't know.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: I should should not say that. At least in the
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: sexual context, it was consensual right now. The prosecution, their
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: case was a little bit different in how they presented it.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Prosecutor Stephen paren Casey led the charge. He didn't just
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: focus on the murder. He painted a much broader picture,
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: one that portrayed Shay not as a scared woman, but
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: as a master manipulator, obsessed with control, obsessed with revenge,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: and the darker corners of true crime. They started with
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: the evidence tampering Shay's carefully edited videos, the ones that
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: the that you know, the defense were playing in the courtroom.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: It was clear that the encounter with Frankie had been
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: consensual in the real footage, and that the worst moments
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: had been clipped out of context, with the pre imposting
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: conversations intentionally removed to make Frankie look violent and unhinged,
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: and they presented the real footage in court.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'm like that's easy.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So if the defense is like, look here he's
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: raping her. There's a footage the prosecutors like, yeah, here's
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: that exact encounter, not edited, not edited, with the pre
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: and post conversations, you know, of them agreeing to this,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: you know, them laugh and chilling together afterwards, and like
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: enjoying it.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: That's why I almost think it's crazy that the defense
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: played this, you know, the edited Yeah, well that's ayraly,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: this is gonna not go down well well, And that's.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Why they say, like defense lawyer, defense lawyers are generally
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: pretty slimy because it's like, who's going to use that
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: as evidence? Look, he's raping her. No, here's the real footage.
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Why are you playing tampered ship?
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, here's the conversation pre and posts.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Then came the timeline manipulation. The jury saw how
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Shay had immediately texted her friend Vicki saying Frank had
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: left the house, part of this manufactured alibi she was
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: trying to to come up with. She'd also invited her
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: ex over shortly after the murder, likely hoping that if
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: he showed up, she could potentially shift the blame to
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: him as the murderer. Oh or muddy the timeline.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, that was the reason potentially of contacting the X.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: We don't know the exact reason, but it is a
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: potential reason.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Makes sense.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: Actually, Yeah, and perhaps perhaps most of all, her obsession
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: with serial killers. And I say serial killers, not true crime,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: because that is a very important distinction. She's obsessed with
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: the serial killers themselves.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: She's a fascination with them.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: The court was shown photos of Shay's bedroom lined with
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: all the artwork of these infamous murderers, and the books
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: about true crime, seeing cleanups and how serial killers avoid capture.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Her notebooks, in fact, were full of journal style entries
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: of how to get away with murder. As I mentioned,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: she was studying, and she clearly fucking flunked that test.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: This wasn't just a passing interest in true crime, it
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: was a lifestyle for her, and the prosecution argued that
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: she didn't just admire these figures, she wanted to become one.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: They even quoted her saying quote, no alibi is airtight
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: and no murder is perfect. Both sides called friends and
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: former partners. Vicki, one of Shaye's closest friends, was especially
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: important for the prosecution. She testified that Shay had bragged
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: about having dirt on exes and often used blackmail tactics
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: to manipulate them. Of course, much of that would most
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: likely be the videos in the bedroom, right yeah. She
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: also described how Shay had giggled on FaceTime while showing
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Frankie's dead body and completely detached herself from the horror
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: of what happened. Lauren, the friend and roommate who helped
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: clean the scene, confirmed that Shay had confessed within hours
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: of the killing, and that she had feared for her
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: own safety if she didn't help. She explained the power
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: and balance, the history of control, and how deeply manipulated
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: she had felt. Shay also took the stand and told
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: the court her versions of what happened, you know, finding
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: the message between Frankie and the supposed thirteen year old girl.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: He confronted her, grabbed her by the throat, She couldn't breathe,
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: She thought she was going to die, grabbed for what
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: she thought was a money box, but a turnout to
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: be a dagger, and it was self defense. She admitted
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: stabbing in multiple times, including through the heart, and told
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: the court she tried to stop the blood with her
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: hand before realizing there was no saving him and the
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: situation had just spiraled. However, no matter what she said, though,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: it became clear this wasn't someone who had just snapped
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: in a moment or fear or was acting in self defense.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: This was someone who fantasized about violence, someone who planned
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: for it and knew exactly how to clean up afterwards.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: By the time the jury filed back in the courtroom
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: on February seventeenth, twenty twenty three, the air in the
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: room was heavy. After nearly a month of testimony and
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: eighteen hours of deliberation. The question wasn't really if Shay
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: Groves had killed Frankie Fitzgerald. It was why she had
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: done it and how much of it was premeditated. The jury,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: seven women and four men, deliberated a unanimous verdict. Shay
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Groves was found guilty of murder.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, that's not a surprise.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: When that was read out in the courtroom, Shaye didn't cry,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: She didn't scream, she didn't even flinch. In fact, she
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: sat there dressed in dark clothes, a pentagram reportedly stitched
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: on the back of her jacket. She sat motionless as
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: the word guilty rang in the courtroom. Five days later,
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: February twenty second, Shay returned to the court to be sentenced.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: Residing Judge Kerr didn't hold back. He addressed Shaye directly,
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: saying that she had committed a shocking and sustained attack
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: that robbed Frankie's children of a father, his parents of
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: a son, and his friends of someone they deeply loved.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: But the judge also introduced a controversial idea. He called
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: it a crime of passion, not a cold blooded murder.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: To quote him, Judge Kerr said, you loved the man
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: you killed, and you killed the man you loved. The
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: phrase crime of passion stirred mixed emotions. Some saw it
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: as a fair description of how jealousy, rage and obsession
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: had boiled over. Others felt it downplayed the brutality of
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: twenty two stab wounds, an edited cover up and calculated
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: plans to try and get away with it. And honestly,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: I wholeheartedly disagree with this judge personally. I don't think
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: she loved him, not one bit. I honestly don't know
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: if she knows what love love even means, And honestly,
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: that's kind of tragic in itself for many reasons.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I fully disagree with the judge. No,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: because she didn't go about covering anything until after the fact.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: She was like super pissed off, right, and she did
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: stab him like twenty two times, which is kind of
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: like a rage passion kill of sorts. Okay, crime of passion,
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: fair enough, But yeah, I don't know necessarily if I
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: would say that she loved him.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I disagree with. You love the man
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: you killed, and you killed the man you loved. I
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: disagree with the fact that it was love. And if
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: he's referring to crime of passion as like passion love, no,
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: crime of passion as in like overwhelming emotions.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Sure, okay, because yeah, I think the passion part is there,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: but yeah, maybe not necessarily the love part yet.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because you can have a passion for many things,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: like you can passionately hate someone, yeah right, you can
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: passionately love chocolate milk, which I do. Honestly, I guess
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: that's love, But I don't think I personally do not
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: think she knows what love means. Yeah, you can't look
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: at that relationship and everything between the two of them
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: and say she loved him. No, point to one point
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: of their relationship and tell me that's love.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, their relationship was very passionate, but
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: that does not necessarily mean love mean love.
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, Either way, it didn't change the outcome.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: Shay Groves was sentenced to life in prison, with a
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: minimum term of twenty three years before she could be
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: considered for role. That means, at the very least, she
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: won't walk free until she's fifty years old.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: Which, okay, I said this before. When people are young
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: and they commit crimes, it's like scary because then there's
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: this the chance that they're gonna get out and I
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: don't know, but then they're in there so long and
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: the hope is that they're rehabilitated and yet.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that is the story of Shae Groves and
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: Frankie Fitzgerald.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: Huh. We also have to note too, like Shaye had
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: a kid, that kid no longer really has a mom. Yeah,
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: you know, like that, it's this so many victims really
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: in this story, like Frankie, like his two kids, you know,
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: his family's friends. But then also like Shay's kid, I
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: don't know even even the roommate. The shit that she's
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: gonna have to like go about now to try to Actually,
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: she's gonna have PTSD exactly well, and because her friend
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: just fucked her up.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: I feel like, and the friend who just got facetimed, Like,
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: next she gets fucking face timed, she's probably be like,
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: should I fucking answer this? Don't?
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to answer this. Yeah, I would
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: probably never answer a FaceTime call again in my whole life.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: I agree. Now, do you have a bit more written
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: here in regards to this case? So let's go through
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: this part.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: So, when the news of Shade Grows and the conviction
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: hit headlines in early twenty twenty three, it exploded across
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: the UK and of course beyond. But it wasn't just
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: the murder itself that caught people's attention. It was everything
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: around it. The serial killer posters, you know, the coffin bookshelf,
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: the Dagger collections, and the obsession with true crime that
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: made the entire case feel like, honestly, it was something
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: straight off a Netflix series. People were stunned not just
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: because of what she did, but because she looked at
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: first glance like someone they might know. Honestly, she was
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: just like an everyday person Yeah, sure, you know, a
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: little bit alternative style. But she was a single mom
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: into horror movies and watched, you know, the same true
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: crime documentaries that many of us binged. You know, the
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: Ted Bundy ones are all the ones that are popular
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: on Netflix and everywhere. Yeah, it made the story hit
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: uncomfortably close to home for a lot of people. It
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: sparked a lot of uncomfortable questions for people who love
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: the genre, not just creators and consumers of the content,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: but everyday fans who listen to true crime podcasts and
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: The Way to Work watch back to back dayline episodes
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: on the weekend. Because Shay wasn't just interested in true crime,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: she idolized the killers. She didn't study them out of
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: curiosity or understand justice. She glamorized their power. And that's
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: the important distinction between her and honestly like content creators
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: and the consumers of the content of the genre is
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: it's the true crime versus the killers? Which one are
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: you are you listening to? Which one are you consuming
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: the stories of? And on this podcast we often try
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: to tell the stories of the victims more often than not.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: And if we try and talk about if we are
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: telling the story of the perpetrator. Like in this case,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: we're trying to dissect it a bit and be like, Okay,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: don't do this shit. That's fucked up, holy shit, you
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: know what I mean.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it doesn't really seem like le even in
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: regards to her own killing, that she has any feelings
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: towards the victims whatsoever, Like it just like it's mute
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: to her. It doesn't matter. Like even yeah, her killing Frankie,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: it was just she didn't seem like she showed any
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: emotion or regard that she took his life, which was
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: like not a big deal.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: Which I don't know how to approach the idea of that,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: because as you mentioned already, like was she numbed? Was
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: her emotions numb? Did she not know how to handle it?
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: Was it something that she hit later on behind closed
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: doors we didn't see. Was that actually her honestly, like
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: with how she tried to portray herself and everything in
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: the beginning, as I'm saying, many of these things were
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: like an armor or her right. Did she even know
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: how to react? Was she surprised by her reaction herself?
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: There's so many questions revolving around that, like do you mean,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: was she sort of in shock maybe.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: And it didn't really her Her actions didn't come to
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: fruition until quite later.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: Well, was she in shock? Was she putting on a
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: facade and pretending because that's what she's used to doing,
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: is pretend. Is leaning into this being like oh, yeah,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: you know, this stuff doesn't bother me when people make
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: fun of her calling her chucky. Oh, being called chucky
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: doesn't bother me. I'm just going to watch horror shows.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: That Was she doing this to like put up a front?
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: Was she actually a psychopath and a killer? Like that?
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: Was she in shock? There's many questions that you could
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: ask in regards to that perspective.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of like, yeah, it would be interesting
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: to have an interview with her, and I don't know,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: I want to kind of this is bad, See, I
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: almost want to know more about her in the sense
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: of is she have remorse now? And like is it
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: something where we'll never know this? But does she feel
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: like she wants to do this again?
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: But that's the difference. That's the line between fascination and fixation, Right,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: You're fascinated with their story. You want to know more
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: about her mind, how it works and why she didn't
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: fucking panic and lose her shit. Yeah, she was fixated on.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: I do not in any way idolize her whatsoever.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the difference. Yeah, it's a fascination of
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: understanding and learning, whereas she has the fixation of, oh
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: my god, I want to idolize you. I can't believe
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: you're able to do that. I want to know more.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: How I want to be.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: How can I have that mindset that's that fine line.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: But where that fine line is and how to draw it,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: I mean that is technically up for debate. Yeah, because
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: some people even think listening to true crime and doing
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: this what we're doing is fucked up.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: They do. Yeah, some people out there.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: For sure, right, But we live completely healthy lives and
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: we're not about to go and do some of these things.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like sometimes it almost makes me live
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: a healthier life because I'm just like I think I
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: just always have like an extra eye out for like
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: weirds or or like is this person following me or
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: or whatever.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if higher anxiety is healthy.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I guess it is desire anxiety, But I
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: don't know. I just or I make sure my doors
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: are always locked, and.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: I mean that's good.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know, it makes you more away.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: I guess it does. But this case, and honestly, this story,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: it's it had a lot of people questioning, you know,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: is the interest in the true crime genre healthy? Why
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: are people drawn to this stuff? In fact, we even
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: had someone recently reach out to us doing a report
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: on the same topic on you know, the true crime
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: and the questions around it and ethics and everything, right, right,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: So it's it's a big old question mark, I guess.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: M h yeah, yeah, I mean that's that's honestly that
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: I know. Well, I guess I'm just trying to think
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: because yeah, I'm going to trip back to that like
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: email with the questions and like is it ethical the
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: way I guess some people present true crime necessarily like
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: we do it sometimes with some humor, and some people
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: don't like that.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we get flack for that sometimes in reviews and stuff.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: But then a lot of people are like, oh, it's
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: so heavy, and you guys like, lighten it up a
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: little bit so that I can digest it, you know.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's that's the point of our humor in
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: it is to you know, tell these heavy fucking stories,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: not only for a light in the load of listening
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: to it, but also for b you know, taking away
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: that that fear mongering power.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: Right, So when we talk about a very heavy case
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: and a serial killer who's like, oh yeah, badass and scary,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: and we call him a douche canoe, we're not quite
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: as scared of that guy anymore. It takes away that
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: power that that individual sought to have. Now they're sitting
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: behind bars, now they're rotting, and now we're laughing at them.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I mean.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's many reasons why you know, that lighthearted
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: this for us, but there are people who question it too,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: there are. But there's also the question around you know,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: she had these posters, these pictures, the artwork of Ted Bundy,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: you know, Eileen Warnos and everything, Stabby Vibes only like
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of that sort of stuff you can go
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: and buy an Etsy. Right, what's the ethics behind that too?
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: That's another big, big question mark, where's the line on that?
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: Because like we honestly we have a piece of merch
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: that we created with a it's AI generated. It was
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: specifically purposed for an AI piece of merch right, And
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: I did honestly spend fucking hours on it, altering it,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: taking into photoshop, doing a bunch of work on two
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: So it's not just AI, it's AI assisted art, if
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: you will. But this one piece of AI assisted art
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: we have it shows a woman grieving with a knife
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: in her hand over her like murdered husband in the
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: kitchen seventies sort of style. Yeah, is that crossing a line?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: You could probably argue it is.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, oh yeah, this could be like a
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: whole nother podcast and topic. But is there sometimes we've
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: talked about it before. Is there a huge difference between
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: consuming like true crime and listening to the stories and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: like the news, right, because they're both reporting on shit
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: that's happened, like bad shit.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: And stuff they are so, I mean, people think about
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: before even televisions, you like, look at like early footage
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: like when cameras were first invented in like New York City, right,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: and it's like people are walking down the street, they're
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: all on news, reading newspapers and shit, you know, you know,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: telegrams are what's the read all about it? I can't
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: remember the saying that they do like headlines read all
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Or yeah, I know what you're saying.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: It's often tragic headlines, you know, accident.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: There's always been a fascination. Yeah, what's necessarily the difference
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: of how you're consuming it.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: It's no different. You're right. News is honestly a lot
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: of the times true crime because they report the same stories.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not in the detail I suppose.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: But honestly, yeah, they do because much of my resources
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: for researching these cases is news artists.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: That's true. That's true.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: So just saying hmm, you're right with that.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: Well, anyway, that gives us some shit to think about
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: for the day if we didn't have anything else.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's no easy answers to it. So if
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: you think about it, if you want to think about it,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: go for it, fly at it, get it locked in
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: your head, come up with answers if you want. But
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: there is no easy answer. There's no definitive answer easy.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe just don't display a bunch of serial killer posters
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: in your in your room.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Don't idolize those dirt eggs.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, don't do it.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: No, they're not worth it. Is Ted Bundy good looking, sure,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: but who fucking cares? He killed people? Is Douche Canoe.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think yeah good looking or not? Like ugh, no,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: oh there's yeah. No.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: Charlie's Stharren played Eileen Warnos. Charlie's Starren is absolutely gorgeous.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: I wanted to vomit when I seed her as Eileen Warnos.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: No way, never, no, gross. Seriously, I have trouble looking
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: at Charlie's there in the same after that, Oh my gosh,
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: that's seriously just saying you know who Charlie's Saron is.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: Right, Oh yeah, okay, I do, yes, yeah, and just yeah, okay,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: well not no, we should wrap things up here.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been a bit of a longer episode and
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of ethics discussions and what's the word theories
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: and stuff. I don't know what I'm trying to say, philosophy,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of philosophy and true crime at the end
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: of this episode, and a lot to think on. But
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: thank you for being here. We appreciate you. If you
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: want to hit us up in a message with your thoughts,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: you know links in the description of this podcast you
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: can find your social media as website. All of it's
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: down there. If want to leave us a review. We
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: really appreciate it. I'll give us a five stars if
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: you like. If not, hey, whatever you think is appropriate.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: My recommendation is a five star.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: Just say yes, definitely our recommendation. If you've made it
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: this far, I like you might think that.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Either that or you're stuck driving on a road
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: trip and your hands are busy driving and you're just like, God,
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: shut up so we can get on something else because
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: I don't have hands free at the moment. Those are
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: the two options and why you're still listening. But thank
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: you for being here.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: Until next time, Stay wicked.