Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The Fight for Bronte -Janine Haskins

Transcript

The Fight for Bronte -Janine Haskins · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appoche production.
0:10
Speaker 2: This podcast includes discussion about youth suicide. If anything in
0:14
Speaker 2: this episode is concerning to you listener, discretion is advised
0:17
Speaker 2: and we've put the link for Lifeline in the show notes.
0:25
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanned. I'm your host,
0:28
Speaker 2: Adam Shann. The tragedy of youth suicide is a crisis
0:31
Speaker 2: in our community and it's often connected to substance abuse
0:35
Speaker 2: and family breakdown. However, even where there is a history
0:39
Speaker 2: of suicide attempts, police must approach every situation with fresh eyes.
0:44
Speaker 2: It's not enough to conclude quickly there are no suspicious
0:47
Speaker 2: circumstances without eliminating every possibility. Twenty three year old Bronti
0:53
Speaker 2: Haskins passed away in twenty twenty and her mother, Jeanine,
0:57
Speaker 2: was not satisfied with the investigation by the Australian Federal
1:00
Speaker 2: Police in Canberra. We make no allegations in this case,
1:04
Speaker 2: but the integrity of police investigations is a matter of
1:07
Speaker 2: public interest. Jeanine is seeking reform in the way that
1:10
Speaker 2: police and mental health services deal with at risk youth
1:14
Speaker 2: and also how the current investigates death where suicide is assumed.
1:19
Speaker 2: And it's my pleasure to welcome Jeanine to real crime.
1:21
Speaker 3: Hi Jeanine, thank you, Thank you, Adam my.
1:25
Speaker 2: Absolute pleasure and let me at the outset just express
1:30
Speaker 2: my deep sorrow at your loss and what you've had
1:34
Speaker 2: to go through, and.
1:35
Speaker 1: Also is pride the right word?
1:39
Speaker 2: I admire your courage for continuing to speak your daughter's
1:44
Speaker 2: truth up against authority and bureaucracy. What you may see
1:49
Speaker 2: is in competence or negligence, but I think whatever the
1:53
Speaker 2: outcome of what you're doing, there'll be another family, another
1:59
Speaker 2: mother who can refer what you're doing and be inspired.
2:05
Speaker 2: So thank you for that.
2:06
Speaker 3: Thank you. It's my pleasure.
2:08
Speaker 4: I guess Bronti doesn't have a voice anymore, so it's
2:12
Speaker 4: my job to be her voice and the voice of
2:15
Speaker 4: for you know, to support other families going through the
2:17
Speaker 4: same thing and sadly the families that will also go
2:20
Speaker 4: through it in the future.
2:22
Speaker 2: Well, that's right, and I think it's only by holding
2:24
Speaker 2: our systems to account that we make progress. And these
2:28
Speaker 2: systems are not perfect. They're run by human beings prone
2:32
Speaker 2: to all the flaws and virtues of humanity. And you've
2:38
Speaker 2: had a really up close examination. First, tell me about Bronti,
2:43
Speaker 2: the daughter.
2:43
Speaker 3: You knew there was a lot to Bronti.
2:45
Speaker 4: I guess I could refer to my family statement a
2:48
Speaker 4: little bit, if that's something that may help up to you.
2:51
Speaker 4: So Bronti was, I guess, the epitome of a gregarious, outgoing, funny, intelligent, caring,
2:59
Speaker 4: generous person, quite a wild child as a younger little person,
3:04
Speaker 4: quite adventure you know, she enjoyed her Joey's cub Scouts, venturers,
3:09
Speaker 4: horse riding, sport. She was quite challenged with many of
3:13
Speaker 4: those things. And also we traveled a lot when we
3:17
Speaker 4: were younger, when Bronti was younger, so that was that
3:21
Speaker 4: was a lot of fun as well. And yeah, she
3:24
Speaker 4: was just a delight to be around, as I said,
3:26
Speaker 4: very very funny.
3:27
Speaker 1: Yeah.
3:28
Speaker 2: And what did she hope for in life? What were
3:31
Speaker 2: her ambitions?
3:32
Speaker 4: She wanted to, I guess, help other people, which is
3:36
Speaker 4: what she had done with dogs. You know, she had
3:39
Speaker 4: fostered dogs, and in turn we have ended up with
3:42
Speaker 4: one of those dogs she fostered and she would rehome.
3:47
Speaker 4: She aspired to be firstly a psychologist, and she ended
3:51
Speaker 4: up being a youth worker, and just prior to her
3:55
Speaker 4: tragic passing, she wanted to open a coffee shop.
3:59
Speaker 2: And she was just twenty three at the time of
4:03
Speaker 2: her death. Yes, so sad for you. This had been
4:08
Speaker 2: the end of I guess you could say tumultuous six years.
4:12
Speaker 2: The thing started to go wrong for her early in
4:15
Speaker 2: the teen years, Is that fair?
4:17
Speaker 3: Yeah?
4:17
Speaker 4: Probably, yeah, seventeen eighteen. Then we sort of got her
4:22
Speaker 4: back for maybe eighteen months, and then we kind of
4:26
Speaker 4: lost her again because Bronti suffered from our experienced co
4:30
Speaker 4: occurring conditions of both mental health issues and substance use
4:36
Speaker 4: and got her into quite a lot of trouble. But
4:41
Speaker 4: I personally strongly believe that this was through childhood trauma
4:45
Speaker 4: she experienced, yeah, when she was very young.
4:48
Speaker 1: What happened then in that early childhood well.
4:52
Speaker 4: I mean, I can't confirm anything, but I know that
4:55
Speaker 4: I Bronti's biological father and I weren't together, and he
4:59
Speaker 4: took me to court and we had to send Bronti
5:03
Speaker 4: to Melbourne.
5:04
Speaker 3: We live in Camber on.
5:06
Speaker 4: Cut access visits, I suppose contact visits as prescribed by
5:10
Speaker 4: the family law court, and as she travel unaccompanied and
5:14
Speaker 4: stay with her father and her father's partner. There had
5:19
Speaker 4: been some emotional abuse by the father's wife, locking her
5:22
Speaker 4: in bedrooms and things like that, which I have been
5:25
Speaker 4: confirmed because the ex wife told me. And the other
5:30
Speaker 4: issue was that just after we lost Frontie, her step
5:34
Speaker 4: grandfather had he pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting Bronti's half
5:39
Speaker 4: sister when she was younger. So I guess when you
5:43
Speaker 4: put two and two together, you know, I can't prove anything,
5:46
Speaker 4: but I can assume something happened.
5:48
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's hard enough growing up generally without
5:52
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff going on in your life, and
5:53
Speaker 2: it certainly wouldn't have helped, no, not at all. And
5:56
Speaker 2: you talked about some substance abuse issues when she was
5:59
Speaker 2: in her teens, and I understand that she did make
6:03
Speaker 2: an attempt on her own life seventeen.
6:06
Speaker 4: There were a few attempts, suicide attempts, and that stage
6:11
Speaker 4: she wasn't successful.
6:13
Speaker 3: Alsoti was quite.
6:15
Speaker 4: Manipulative, so particularly when she was using substances. So it
6:19
Speaker 4: is hard to tell, but yes, she did struggle with
6:22
Speaker 4: the use of ice. And having worked in the criminal
6:26
Speaker 4: justice system, I know I've seen the results of ice
6:29
Speaker 4: and what it does to people. I think it slowly
6:31
Speaker 4: fries their brains. And that was when she was in Melbourne,
6:37
Speaker 4: living down there for a while, and then she came
6:39
Speaker 4: back and she sort of I don't use the word
6:40
Speaker 4: clean because that means someone was dirty.
6:43
Speaker 3: But she ceased using.
6:44
Speaker 4: Substances for quite a while, but she lapsed in two
6:50
Speaker 4: thousand and eighteen, I believe, and then also started or
6:56
Speaker 4: commenced using heroin, and I think she had quite a
6:59
Speaker 4: dependency on it.
7:01
Speaker 2: Right, That's a very good point you make there about
7:04
Speaker 2: clean dirty and the fact that if someone using illicit
7:08
Speaker 2: drugs is somehow unclean or morally at fault. And it
7:15
Speaker 2: seems like that's a very good point. And I won't
7:18
Speaker 2: use that word again, Thank you for that, Jannine, because
7:21
Speaker 2: there are better ways to express it. And also the
7:24
Speaker 2: trauma that leads somebody to self medicate in this way,
7:29
Speaker 2: and through this period she starts to fall into what
7:32
Speaker 2: I will call the wrong crowd.
7:34
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, And I'm an open book, Adam, and I
7:39
Speaker 4: think Blonte could be a very open.
7:41
Speaker 3: Book at times. Some of the stuff she told me,
7:43
Speaker 3: I just can't I can't hear, I must say.
7:47
Speaker 4: But yeah, she did get involved with an outlawle motorcycle gang.
7:51
Speaker 4: She was working at a clubhouse there, and I guess
7:55
Speaker 4: she became a possession of one of the gang members,
7:58
Speaker 4: which was really hard to get out of, as we
8:00
Speaker 4: know with little motorcycle gangs. However, somehow she was able
8:05
Speaker 4: to get herself disentangled from this hideous relationship with a
8:09
Speaker 4: man twice her age. However, it didn't solve all her
8:13
Speaker 4: problems and she did although she did get work in
8:17
Speaker 4: a youth residential youth program, did very well, but also
8:21
Speaker 4: put in a work as compensation claim for being assaulted
8:23
Speaker 4: and got received quite a substantial compensation payment, which really
8:30
Speaker 4: didn't help things as far as using illicit substances. And
8:34
Speaker 4: I'll just just say that I have changed my language
8:36
Speaker 4: around substance use because of the stigmatization that people who
8:41
Speaker 4: use substances live with, you know, drug addict, junkie, all
8:44
Speaker 4: that kind of all those kind of things. So I
8:48
Speaker 4: use the word dependency, and you know, I think many
8:52
Speaker 4: people have many forms of dependencies. But there is so
8:56
Speaker 4: much judgmental stigmatization towards people who use illicit substances and
9:02
Speaker 4: haven't sort of been educated enough to realize why people
9:06
Speaker 4: do start or do commence using substances. Brontie left a
9:10
Speaker 4: lot of diaries. She was very ashamed of her substance use.
9:15
Speaker 4: In the situation she found herself in. But I think
9:17
Speaker 4: sometimes that's a hole you can't really get out of
9:21
Speaker 4: so readily unless it is a really decent ladder to
9:24
Speaker 4: help you out.
9:25
Speaker 1: Absolutely right.
9:26
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are plenty of parents listening right now
9:29
Speaker 2: who may be going through the same trial as you were,
9:33
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you will tell them how difficult it is.
9:37
Speaker 2: You're a loving mother, You're trying your best. Can't lock
9:40
Speaker 2: your kids up twenty four to seven, you can't keep
9:42
Speaker 2: them away from their friends when they're adults, and you
9:45
Speaker 2: struggled to do your best for Brodie.
9:48
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, we did, and where there was, you know,
9:52
Speaker 4: there were the last two years our relationship was very
9:56
Speaker 4: fractured and difficult. You know, Bronti would break into her
10:00
Speaker 4: house because she'd lost so much weight she could get
10:02
Speaker 4: in through the dog door, and we ended up having
10:04
Speaker 4: to foot in the house. But please remember this didn't
10:08
Speaker 4: make us love her any less. Her stepfather has been
10:12
Speaker 4: in Bronti's life since she was about eight months old,
10:14
Speaker 4: so he had very much the father figure and we
10:18
Speaker 4: certainly wanted.
10:19
Speaker 3: The best for Bronchi.
10:20
Speaker 4: And when she was arrested in early twenty twenty, she
10:26
Speaker 4: spent about nearly two weeks in custody, and she came
10:29
Speaker 4: out looking the best I've ever seen her. This is
10:32
Speaker 4: where we wanted to really start to rebuild our relationship
10:35
Speaker 4: with Bronti. And you know, instead of calling me to
10:38
Speaker 4: a few choice names that she used to, she started
10:41
Speaker 4: calling me Mama Bear again. So that was a really
10:44
Speaker 4: positive kind of turning point for us, we thought. However, unfortunately,
10:50
Speaker 4: we did also recognize that the services that were there
10:54
Speaker 4: to engage, to support and engage with Bronti absolutely categorically
10:59
Speaker 4: failed her.
11:01
Speaker 1: Yes, and that we'll get to that.
11:03
Speaker 2: But she was in custody for driving offenses, driving while
11:08
Speaker 2: intoxicated and going through a red light.
11:10
Speaker 3: I believe it was yeah stop sign, yeah.
11:13
Speaker 2: Stop sign, stop sign, yeah yeah. So how long did
11:16
Speaker 2: you spend in custody? For only a short.
11:17
Speaker 4: While, It was only about two weeks. However, you know,
11:21
Speaker 4: I don't know if this is time to bring it up,
11:23
Speaker 4: but she was assessed as a prisoner at risk due
11:26
Speaker 4: to suicidal ideation. However, that information when she when Brontie
11:30
Speaker 4: applied for bail was not received by the magistrate's court,
11:35
Speaker 4: so the magistrate really focused on Brountie's substance use, not
11:38
Speaker 4: her mental health. And I think this was a distinct
11:42
Speaker 4: failing and lack of communication and collaboration between services like
11:47
Speaker 4: the ACT Prison, the Alexander McConochie Center, and the ACT
11:52
Speaker 4: court system.
11:53
Speaker 2: Because this is all happening in Canberra, Austrain and Capital Territory,
11:56
Speaker 2: so that's important to note. And so with hindsight, having
12:01
Speaker 2: her in custody gave her some space, by the sounds,
12:05
Speaker 2: to get off the drugs at least in a temporary
12:08
Speaker 2: way and get some clarity, would you say, And I
12:10
Speaker 2: wonder whether we look back again at hindsight's twenty twenty
12:13
Speaker 2: would have been better to keep her in custody for
12:15
Speaker 2: an extended period and maybe going to some sort of
12:18
Speaker 2: residential care even quite possibly.
12:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, the last thing a mother wants to do is,
12:23
Speaker 4: you know, a dog on their child. However, I did
12:25
Speaker 4: agree to undertakings by the magistrate that released Bronti on bail.
12:31
Speaker 4: I agreed that I would call the police if the
12:34
Speaker 4: book on a police station if Bronti appeared to be
12:36
Speaker 4: under the influence of the illicit substances, and the magistrate
12:41
Speaker 4: made it quite clear to Bronti that you know Bronti
12:44
Speaker 4: breach by using substances your mother, and she doesn't let
12:48
Speaker 4: the police know she could be prosecuted. Now I understand
12:51
Speaker 4: that was just putting the fear of death into Bronzie.
12:54
Speaker 4: But you know, it may have been better if she
12:59
Speaker 4: had stayed a little bit longer or been in a
13:02
Speaker 4: facility where she was safe from home. I would have
13:06
Speaker 4: preferred her to be an adult mental health forward or
13:10
Speaker 4: something like that. We do have a facility in Camber
13:13
Speaker 4: called Dulwis which is for forensic mental health either people
13:19
Speaker 4: who have been in the criminal justice system or are
13:22
Speaker 4: at risk of being in the mental health system. That
13:25
Speaker 4: would have been good. She could have probably received fully
13:29
Speaker 4: and thoroughly assessed for her mental health issues, and a
13:32
Speaker 4: treatment plan possibly could have been prepared for her.
13:36
Speaker 2: Like most parents with their child in custody the first
13:39
Speaker 2: time getting bail, you may have been heartened by the
13:43
Speaker 2: bail conditions that attached to her release. Now looking back
13:47
Speaker 2: on it, you call them a paper tiger. What were
13:50
Speaker 2: those conditions and why were they so ineffective?
13:53
Speaker 4: Well, firstly, I have a career history of working as
13:58
Speaker 4: a probational prole officers, which I worked with corrections for
14:02
Speaker 4: eight years, both in a remand center and in community directions.
14:06
Speaker 3: One sticking point for me is that when we as.
14:10
Speaker 4: A probation and prolo offs, so if someone was released
14:13
Speaker 4: from custody or released from on bail in the community,
14:18
Speaker 4: from being in the community, they had to go straight
14:20
Speaker 4: to see the duty officer at community corrections, no messing about,
14:24
Speaker 4: straight there, straight up to courts within walking distance. Now,
14:29
Speaker 4: when Bronti was released from the Alexander McConochie Center, the
14:33
Speaker 4: bail officer made an appointment for about twelve days time.
14:36
Speaker 4: Twelve days time Bronti was dead. So there's a big
14:40
Speaker 4: failing there. And I know that when I was a
14:43
Speaker 4: promotional proloffs. So if you had to submit a break
14:46
Speaker 4: which was extra work never factored into her workload.
14:49
Speaker 3: Of course you just did it.
14:51
Speaker 4: You know who cares If it's Friday afternoon at five
14:53
Speaker 4: point thirty, you get that breach. In this particular, bail
14:56
Speaker 4: officer failed to submit to breaches of Bronti's ur analysis results.
15:01
Speaker 3: So you know you've got a wonder.
15:04
Speaker 2: So was there in a urine analysis that would have
15:07
Speaker 2: shown substance abuse or substance consumption?
15:10
Speaker 4: Yeah, prior to Brodtie being admitted to the AMC. She
15:14
Speaker 4: had thrown two dirty urines, I believe, and the bail
15:18
Speaker 4: officer just didn't have time to submit those breaches.
15:22
Speaker 2: I think much has been made of the workload that
15:26
Speaker 2: these people are under. Do you think that's a reason,
15:29
Speaker 2: if not an excuse for what happened.
15:32
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a hard one. I guess.
15:34
Speaker 4: When I worked as a promotion officer, we had an
15:38
Speaker 4: extensive workload. We didn't have bail officers. We had to
15:40
Speaker 4: look after our own bails as well as doing duty
15:43
Speaker 4: officer records. Now, I really wanted to practice on a
15:47
Speaker 4: case management model with my clients, but we'd have to
15:51
Speaker 4: prepare one pre sentence report per week for court. And
15:54
Speaker 4: I actually did an evaluation on the workload assessment. You
15:57
Speaker 4: probably needed about fifty five hours a week to do
15:59
Speaker 4: your job effectively, and so I'd take a file home
16:03
Speaker 4: each week, which is to boo, but I would take
16:06
Speaker 4: a file home and do my pre sentence reports on
16:09
Speaker 4: the weekends. So, with the recommendations that came out of
16:12
Speaker 4: Bronzie's cronial hearing, the magistrate recommended putting on an extra
16:17
Speaker 4: bail officer, which they have. They have done that. I
16:21
Speaker 4: think they're still under the pump. But I also think
16:23
Speaker 4: that there's such a turnover within Act corrections that they're
16:28
Speaker 4: not necessarily getting well trained staff as who identify suicidality,
16:33
Speaker 4: problematic substance use things like that, and you know, not
16:37
Speaker 4: a lot of lived experience.
16:38
Speaker 2: No, no, you where they are quite well positioned to
16:43
Speaker 2: comment on this, given your work in probations and parole,
16:45
Speaker 2: and I should make a point about that.
16:49
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what happened after Brontie's release. Where does
16:53
Speaker 1: she go? What does she do?
16:55
Speaker 4: She was released on the Wednesday from the AMC, just
16:58
Speaker 4: just shuffled out the gates, so unless my husband was
17:01
Speaker 4: you know, Unfortunately, my husband was able to go and
17:04
Speaker 4: pick her up on the AMC, which is in a
17:06
Speaker 4: fairly isolated area. It's a near an industrial area in
17:10
Speaker 4: the Act. And then she had to return to court
17:12
Speaker 4: the next day on Thursday, so we attended with her.
17:15
Speaker 4: The bail conditions were provided certain tasks. Brontie had to
17:20
Speaker 4: make an appointment with a bail officer, attend the court
17:24
Speaker 4: Alcohol and Drug Assessment Service. She made an appointment for that,
17:27
Speaker 4: but that was another ten days or so away, and
17:31
Speaker 4: she had conditions not to consume list substances not to
17:34
Speaker 4: be behind the wheel of the car, and she was
17:36
Speaker 4: bailed to reside with us. So we have a flat
17:39
Speaker 4: under our house, so she moved into that, which was
17:41
Speaker 4: quite handy and the only thing, the only other condition
17:46
Speaker 4: was that she had to return home at nighttime so
17:49
Speaker 4: she could do what she wanted during the day. Fair enough,
17:52
Speaker 4: and that's what she did. But she did go back
17:55
Speaker 4: to where she had been living and had been using
17:59
Speaker 4: a lot of substances. And by the Friday evening we
18:04
Speaker 4: had gone out for dinner and came home and Bronti
18:07
Speaker 4: was experiencing a psychotic drug injuice psychotic episode. She thought
18:12
Speaker 4: she was in a Jewish gas chamber and that the
18:15
Speaker 4: Nazis were guessing the Jews. She was in the flat
18:19
Speaker 4: pulling the oven out. I think she might have been
18:22
Speaker 4: reading the serial number or whatever of the oven and
18:27
Speaker 4: telling me that was a secret code. And you know,
18:30
Speaker 4: she was clearly unwell. So I did what I was
18:33
Speaker 4: called ordered to do, and I rang the police. I
18:36
Speaker 4: rang access mental health. Police turned up for and a
18:40
Speaker 4: half hours later, and the mental health clinician trioh Bronti
18:45
Speaker 4: within two minutes. Even though she had a lot of
18:49
Speaker 4: red flags, and we've got s FATS, which are suicide
18:52
Speaker 4: suicide vulnerability assessment tools. She never looked at any of those,
18:56
Speaker 4: and she triaged Bronti has nothing to see here, So
18:59
Speaker 4: there was no follow up for Bronti. If she hadn't
19:02
Speaker 4: been trioged correctly, she would have been seen within at
19:06
Speaker 4: the longest, I think seventy two hours after my call.
19:09
Speaker 4: But no, the mental health condition knew better than me
19:12
Speaker 4: and triaged her incorrectly and then went back to whatever
19:15
Speaker 4: she'd do.
19:16
Speaker 2: When you say nothing to see here, You've got a
19:19
Speaker 2: young person with a history of suicidal ideation, she's just
19:23
Speaker 2: come out out of custody, she's got bail conditions around
19:27
Speaker 2: consumption of drugs, and yet nothing to see here. What
19:32
Speaker 2: should have been seen there and what should have happened
19:35
Speaker 2: if the system was working correctly.
19:37
Speaker 4: Well, she should have listened to her Bronti's mother. She
19:42
Speaker 4: also demanded to speak to Bronti, and I said, no,
19:45
Speaker 4: you can't speak to her because she's acutely psychotic and
19:50
Speaker 4: she'll probably leg it, you know, she'll just go. And
19:54
Speaker 4: this woman kept persisting that I call that sorry that
19:58
Speaker 4: she speaks to Bronti, who she referred to as the kid,
20:02
Speaker 4: and I kept saying no. The other thing was that
20:06
Speaker 4: we know, we know the risk of people coming out
20:09
Speaker 4: of custody. We know that the first the first week,
20:13
Speaker 4: the first few months, the first year, if they've been
20:15
Speaker 4: in for a while, is a really high risk time.
20:18
Speaker 4: I remember driving back from the court magistrate's court and
20:20
Speaker 4: Bronti's saying, I just want one more shot, Mama, And
20:23
Speaker 4: I said, well, no, Poppy, that's her nickname. You can't
20:26
Speaker 4: have one more shot. But clearly she couldn't get heroin
20:31
Speaker 4: that day, so she used ice. And she told me
20:33
Speaker 4: she used ice. But the police, well they knew better
20:38
Speaker 4: than me, and they when they turned up, they told
20:40
Speaker 4: me that she was fine.
20:42
Speaker 1: She'd breached a bail.
20:43
Speaker 2: I mean, surely she should have gone back into custody
20:46
Speaker 2: for her own protection and dissatisfy the terms of the bail.
20:50
Speaker 3: I was pleading. I was pleading.
20:51
Speaker 4: I said, I don't necessarily want her to go back
20:54
Speaker 4: to AMC, but I want her to go to the
20:57
Speaker 4: ED Emergency Department or the adult mental health unit. I
21:01
Speaker 4: want her to be assessed. No, she's fine. So even
21:05
Speaker 4: when I read the contemporaneous notes by the police officers,
21:09
Speaker 4: they said that Bronte was stable underfoot, lucid, and then
21:15
Speaker 4: underneath that dilated pupils and scabs on skin. So to me,
21:22
Speaker 4: I think that's indicative. I mean, I'm not a police officer,
21:26
Speaker 4: but I've trained police officers in domestic and family violence,
21:29
Speaker 4: and I know they should assume they're quite well trained
21:34
Speaker 4: in substance use. But they basically just said, no, there's
21:39
Speaker 4: nothing to see here. She's absolutely fine, I said, but
21:41
Speaker 4: she's breach of bowel conditions. Or we can't do mobile,
21:45
Speaker 4: we can't do drug testing at home. There's only certain qualificate,
21:50
Speaker 4: certain qualified police officers that can do that. That was
21:53
Speaker 4: raised within the coronial hearing as well, so I was
21:57
Speaker 4: just unheard.
21:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, a moment of sympathy for the police.
22:01
Speaker 2: They're not trained mental health professionals, they're not drug counselors.
22:05
Speaker 1: Their first responders in the situation.
22:07
Speaker 2: But I would be critical to say that if you
22:10
Speaker 2: can't make that judgment as a police officer, find someone
22:13
Speaker 2: who can. And it sounded like there was a it
22:16
Speaker 2: was a matter of convenience that this was done without
22:19
Speaker 2: a lot of follow up.
22:20
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know if it was
22:21
Speaker 4: nearly the end of their shift and they didn't want
22:23
Speaker 4: to do the paperwork. But we do have a program
22:26
Speaker 4: in Camber called the PACER program, which is paramedics on
22:30
Speaker 4: a police ambulance clinician emergency response, so it is attendance
22:37
Speaker 4: with a mental health clinician, police officers and paramedics where
22:44
Speaker 4: they go to the house if they deem it necessary
22:49
Speaker 4: and assess the person. Now, we found out during the
22:52
Speaker 4: CRONI were hearing that the PACER team was available during
22:55
Speaker 4: the time Irang, despite the police not being able to
23:00
Speaker 4: find the record of my phone call at eleven thirty
23:03
Speaker 4: in the evening, which if they hadn't have found that,
23:06
Speaker 4: the PACER team wouldn't have been operating because they finished
23:09
Speaker 4: at twelve. But they were clearly available at eleven thirty
23:12
Speaker 4: and we have that evidence.
23:14
Speaker 1: Right. So what happened next.
23:16
Speaker 3: Business is usual.
23:18
Speaker 4: On Saturday, Bronchi went out for the day, didn't see
23:22
Speaker 4: much of her. Sunday she left with the known substance
23:26
Speaker 4: user and appeared quite scattered, So my husband rang the police.
23:32
Speaker 4: That was Sunday night. Monday night, I couldn't rouse Bronti
23:35
Speaker 4: in the flat and thought she might have overdosed, so
23:40
Speaker 4: I finally got in there. She just sort of blockaded
23:43
Speaker 4: the door with a sewing machine and I called her first.
23:46
Speaker 4: They said call an ambulance, so I called an ambulance.
23:50
Speaker 4: They roused Bronti. They gave her a ventulin and Bronti
23:54
Speaker 4: refused to go with them. They didn't tell me at
23:57
Speaker 4: the time there was drug paraphernalia in the flat, which
23:59
Speaker 4: I understand confidentiality, but I also understand you to care.
24:04
Speaker 4: And they left left the call out from Sunday night
24:07
Speaker 4: from my husband. They the police turned up thirty seven
24:11
Speaker 4: hours later, so about ten o'clock on the Tuesday morning.
24:17
Speaker 1: And thirty seven hours later.
24:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'd ask them to say it's a bail
24:22
Speaker 4: compliance check because I didn't want her to think I
24:26
Speaker 4: had been ringing up and I wasn't actually me that
24:29
Speaker 4: rang up, but Bronte thought it was me. And when
24:32
Speaker 4: I heard her screaming and howling after the police left,
24:36
Speaker 4: because they said she was fine again, and I went
24:39
Speaker 4: down there and she thought I'd call the police.
24:42
Speaker 3: And that was the.
24:42
Speaker 4: Last conversation I had with her while she was still well.
24:48
Speaker 4: Wasn't in a drug injuice coma, so pretty disappointing. And
24:54
Speaker 4: then she went to she had a really good friend
24:58
Speaker 4: who we'd only recently just met. She didn't want him
25:02
Speaker 4: involved with the other people she was sort of living
25:05
Speaker 4: her life with. He came and picked Bronte up and
25:08
Speaker 4: took her to a hairdressing appointment where she wanted to
25:11
Speaker 4: get her hair extensions put back in. As usual, Bronti
25:14
Speaker 4: was running late, so the hairdresser couldn't finish the procedure
25:18
Speaker 4: and said come back in two days. Bronte paid one
25:22
Speaker 4: hundred and thirty dollars for the hairdresser the whole deal,
25:26
Speaker 4: and which is very you know, having worked with people
25:30
Speaker 4: with dependency issues, it's very unusual for someone to pay
25:33
Speaker 4: that money when they know they could go out and school.
25:36
Speaker 1: But she paid it, and she also planned to go
25:40
Speaker 1: back the next week, I understand.
25:42
Speaker 4: For two days later she was, yeah, I currently got
25:47
Speaker 4: it wrong, in it right. So that was the Tuesday.
25:49
Speaker 4: She'd made it another appointment for Thursday, and then she
25:53
Speaker 4: went across the road because that's where her ex partner,
25:56
Speaker 4: who was twice her age, was residing, and they had
26:03
Speaker 4: a massive argument.
26:05
Speaker 2: We won't use him, we won't use his name for
26:07
Speaker 2: legal reasons. Let's just call him the expart And I
26:09
Speaker 2: think it's if you don't mind. Sure, And so he
26:12
Speaker 2: had a background of drug supply. He'd been part of
26:16
Speaker 2: an outlaw motorcycle gang as an associate or a member. Yes,
26:20
Speaker 2: And of that compensation payment, Brontie had given him a
26:25
Speaker 2: large sum of money.
26:26
Speaker 1: I think about thirty thousand dollars is that right?
26:28
Speaker 4: Well that's what Bronchie told us, So that's what we've
26:31
Speaker 4: got to go on.
26:32
Speaker 2: So yes, right, So she'd helped him out significantly and
26:36
Speaker 2: he hadn't paid her back, no, And so what was
26:38
Speaker 2: this argument over.
26:40
Speaker 4: Bronte had stolen money from him on the Saturday, and
26:44
Speaker 4: with the money, she'd gone out and actually bought a
26:48
Speaker 4: whole lot of food, like crazy industrial rolls of foil
26:53
Speaker 4: and glad wrap and things like that, and lots of
26:56
Speaker 4: meals to put in the fridge. So she I don't
26:59
Speaker 4: know what else she spent the money on. You know,
27:00
Speaker 4: we were really trying to mend our relationship with Bronze,
27:06
Speaker 4: so we weren't trying to get in her face all
27:07
Speaker 4: the time.
27:08
Speaker 2: Well, it's such a it's such a delicate balance because
27:11
Speaker 2: you can't be the police officer home trying to tell
27:15
Speaker 2: her what to do and lock the door. It's not
27:17
Speaker 2: going to work. She's an adult. You have to walk
27:20
Speaker 2: a very fine line here and.
27:23
Speaker 3: People vote with their feet.
27:25
Speaker 4: And given Bronte's substance use, as I said previously, she
27:30
Speaker 4: was very manipulative. So you know, she went over to
27:33
Speaker 4: this person's house and said, oh, look, you know, mum's
27:36
Speaker 4: not feeding me. And I walked all the way over
27:37
Speaker 4: here and blah blah blah, which is not the truth.
27:40
Speaker 4: She talked across from the shops. But yes, they had
27:44
Speaker 4: a big argument because he had realized that she had
27:47
Speaker 4: stolen money from him, and she asked if she could
27:50
Speaker 4: just come in and chill and he said no. Strangely enough,
27:55
Speaker 4: when it came to the cronial hearing, he couldn't remember
27:57
Speaker 4: that they had an argument, but it was all It
28:00
Speaker 4: was all audio on the CCTV cameras that he had
28:04
Speaker 4: or under his backyard because he was a drug dealer.
28:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, I call them drug dealers when they're dealers.
28:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what they are. You know.
28:13
Speaker 2: He has motion activated cameras, at least three, I believe
28:19
Speaker 2: had five.
28:20
Speaker 3: I think five or six, but one of them wasn't
28:23
Speaker 3: working right.
28:24
Speaker 1: So what happened next?
28:25
Speaker 4: He said that he was going back to have a nap.
28:29
Speaker 4: This was I think about one o'clock in the afternoon. Strangely,
28:35
Speaker 4: when I've had an argument someone, I don't feel like
28:37
Speaker 4: I can just fall asleep. But anyway, there is footage
28:40
Speaker 4: of Brontie preparing a noose off the pagola. I haven't
28:44
Speaker 4: seen that, I won't say it, but other people have
28:47
Speaker 4: of course, And there is some considerable time that she
28:52
Speaker 4: puts her head through the noose, I believe, to see
28:55
Speaker 4: if it will hold her weight. But then she gets
28:58
Speaker 4: down and has a cigarette or something like that before
29:03
Speaker 4: returning to the noose, and then the camera.
29:07
Speaker 2: Stops right for forty six minutes. There's nothing right and
29:12
Speaker 2: that that's a motion activated camera. Yes, so you're not
29:17
Speaker 2: alleging that there was footage deleted, but the camera just
29:21
Speaker 2: didn't pick anything up for forty six minutes.
29:23
Speaker 3: Is that right? Well?
29:24
Speaker 4: Yeah, to be honest, Adam, I'm not tech savvy. However,
29:28
Speaker 4: footage was seen by the police the time Brontie had
29:32
Speaker 4: been taken to hospital and it was seized, but it
29:36
Speaker 4: was returned to him just a few days later after
29:40
Speaker 4: we lost Bronti. But we did pay eleven a substantial
29:44
Speaker 4: amount of money eleven thousand dollars to engage a CCTV
29:49
Speaker 4: independent expert to look at the footage, and he said
29:53
Speaker 4: it's gone.
29:54
Speaker 2: So there was a copy taken by the police. I
29:57
Speaker 2: presume I appreciate it was returned. Yes, okay, all right,
30:02
Speaker 2: So your expert says the footage has gone. He doesn't
30:06
Speaker 2: know why it's gone that. He doesn't make any allegation
30:08
Speaker 2: at that point.
30:10
Speaker 3: No, it's just gone.
30:12
Speaker 4: So I said, I don't know enough about it except
30:14
Speaker 4: I know that motion sensored. I would possibly mean that
30:18
Speaker 4: if it was motion sense, that it wouldn't have turned
30:20
Speaker 4: off after Bronti had had alighted from whatever she alighted
30:24
Speaker 4: from to hang herself, because there would have been a
30:27
Speaker 4: physiological response to her body.
30:30
Speaker 1: There'll be movement.
30:31
Speaker 2: So it's either a malfunction or I'm not sure, but
30:36
Speaker 2: suffice it to say. Forty six minutes later, there is
30:38
Speaker 2: more footage. At this point she is pictured suspended from
30:42
Speaker 2: the noose.
30:44
Speaker 4: Yes, and the person has the drug dealer. He's come
30:49
Speaker 4: out to let Bronti's dogs out for a walk and
30:53
Speaker 4: seen Bronti hanging, and then has tried to get her down, apparently,
31:00
Speaker 4: and then gone inside and got a knife. There's quite
31:02
Speaker 4: a period of time that he's inside, he does ring.
31:05
Speaker 1: It a minute, minutes pass minutes.
31:08
Speaker 4: Yes, I think as the next smoker, I think I
31:12
Speaker 4: ti hied it. I could smoke a cigarette for the
31:14
Speaker 4: time that he was in the in the house. From
31:17
Speaker 4: my recollection, I mean, it's now six years since I
31:20
Speaker 4: did my own investigation, over six years, but that's what
31:23
Speaker 4: came out of it for me anyway. And then he's
31:26
Speaker 4: rung triple zero. I have also heard from other people
31:30
Speaker 4: who have seen the footage that he did quite animated.
31:35
Speaker 4: And then but you know, when the police came and
31:37
Speaker 4: the ambulance came, they were working the parabatics were working
31:42
Speaker 4: on Bronte and then took her to a hospital. And
31:46
Speaker 4: I'm still waiting for an answer from the AFP as
31:49
Speaker 4: to whether a crime scene was established because the officers
31:53
Speaker 4: did not enter the house of the drug dealer where
31:56
Speaker 4: there could have been a monitor for the cameras well.
31:59
Speaker 2: They should have shouldn't That was a basic I think
32:02
Speaker 2: the problem here is, I think this is what you've
32:04
Speaker 2: tried to it forward through the coroner, was that there
32:07
Speaker 2: was an assumption of suicide before the evidence was weighed.
32:13
Speaker 3: I believe so.
32:13
Speaker 4: I mean, I am a very quite a passionate coronia
32:18
Speaker 4: or astored every form advocate now, and I know if
32:22
Speaker 4: I went on hard quiz, my specialized thing would be cronials.
32:25
Speaker 2: Just a bit sad the fact that there was an
32:27
Speaker 2: assumption by police of suicide before the evidence was really
32:30
Speaker 2: weighed up, and I think that's common in these situations,
32:34
Speaker 2: not just in how they across stuffs. I heard this
32:36
Speaker 2: many times and the I know it's difficult for first responders,
32:40
Speaker 2: but I think there needs to be the same approach
32:43
Speaker 2: to all investigations. Assess the evidence before you jump to
32:46
Speaker 2: a conclusion. Otherwise you have what's called tunnel vision.
32:49
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I know I went and saw Gary Jubilin
32:54
Speaker 4: in Live a few years ago, and it's always always
32:58
Speaker 4: resonates with me that he said, even if it looks
33:00
Speaker 4: like a suicide, you treated as a homicide to start with,
33:03
Speaker 4: to rule anything out like that, So clearly, you know,
33:08
Speaker 4: I mean, some of the police officers knew Bronti, so
33:11
Speaker 4: I think I guess they may have already, they may
33:14
Speaker 4: have had an unconscious bias about who they thought she
33:16
Speaker 4: was and things like that, but that's not how it
33:19
Speaker 4: should be. I mean, I used to work as sex offenders.
33:22
Speaker 4: I don't like sex offenders, but I still had to
33:24
Speaker 4: be professional and do my job. And I don't think
33:28
Speaker 4: Bronti was afforded that because of the lens that quite
33:31
Speaker 4: often I'm not talking about all police officers, not at all,
33:37
Speaker 4: but there sometimes is a lens placed on people like
33:40
Speaker 4: my daughter, who Brontie, who's a marginalized group of people,
33:45
Speaker 4: and the care and diligence is not applied to conducting
33:50
Speaker 4: a thorough investigation well indeed.
33:53
Speaker 2: And I think also when you look in the notes
33:55
Speaker 2: or wherever the sources are, which has the words previous
33:59
Speaker 2: suicidal ideation, there is an assumption made which is not helpful.
34:05
Speaker 1: One would hope.
34:05
Speaker 2: Out of cases like this, and we have situations over
34:08
Speaker 2: the years where people who have sue us. I'm not
34:11
Speaker 2: saying that. I'm not saying this homicide in this case,
34:13
Speaker 2: let's be very clear about that. But there have been
34:16
Speaker 2: other cases in the past where people have tried to
34:18
Speaker 2: commit suicide have indeed been murdered later.
34:21
Speaker 1: So the assumption is faulty.
34:24
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I don't you know, particularly when we come
34:26
Speaker 4: to the legal profession, things need to be evidence based.
34:31
Speaker 4: You can't assume. I mean, I learned that very early
34:34
Speaker 4: on in my probation and parol days. You can't write, oh,
34:36
Speaker 4: he was agitated. You could write he appeared agitated. It
34:40
Speaker 4: needs to be factual, you can't just assume. So in
34:45
Speaker 4: this case, I think there was a lot of assumptions
34:47
Speaker 4: made which led from the initial police investigation and went
34:51
Speaker 4: all the way down the track to the coroner. I
34:54
Speaker 4: mean the coroner originally refused to have a corona. We
34:58
Speaker 4: call them a hearing in act we just have to
35:01
Speaker 4: be a bit different.
35:03
Speaker 3: Not an inquest.
35:03
Speaker 4: But he just he provided a certificate to dispense of
35:08
Speaker 4: a hearing because there was nothing to see. Well, it's
35:12
Speaker 4: not just I'm not just talking about Bronte here. I'm
35:14
Speaker 4: talking about so many other people as well who've done
35:17
Speaker 4: their own investigations, which I did along with two of
35:20
Speaker 4: my former colleagues, and we all did them independently. We
35:23
Speaker 4: came up with so many overlaps, sent them to the
35:26
Speaker 4: chief coroner. She sent them back to our signed coroner,
35:32
Speaker 4: who then overturned his original decision and said, well, I
35:35
Speaker 4: will hold a hearing now. He should have recused himself.
35:39
Speaker 4: We don't know whether he had conscious bias unconscious bias,
35:43
Speaker 4: but there was a clear conflict if you ask me,
35:47
Speaker 4: and I'll stand by that fair enough.
35:50
Speaker 1: But at the same time, he played devil's advocate for
35:52
Speaker 1: a moment.
35:53
Speaker 2: The coroner relies upon the information provided by the police.
35:58
Speaker 2: That's all he's got effectively, and the people that he
36:01
Speaker 2: calls to give evidence in the hearing stroke in quest.
36:05
Speaker 2: You think it was possible that the coroner could come
36:08
Speaker 2: to any other conclusion when the inputs at the beginning
36:12
Speaker 2: were an assumption.
36:13
Speaker 4: Yes, I think he could have come to other potential conclusions.
36:17
Speaker 4: They're the ones that I've come to. They're the ones
36:20
Speaker 4: that you know. Ourse, we had a great solicitor who
36:25
Speaker 4: did pro bono for us, who did so much investigation,
36:28
Speaker 4: and I think he was trying to head down that
36:30
Speaker 4: rabbit hole. I was like, what actually happened here? But
36:35
Speaker 4: as I think you're very right. I think there was
36:37
Speaker 4: a decision made early in the piece that there was
36:40
Speaker 4: you know, it wasn't going to go any further.
36:42
Speaker 2: Well, you can't go back and start the investigation again,
36:44
Speaker 2: can you. If it's if you failed to create a
36:47
Speaker 2: crime scene, if you failed to go into the residence,
36:49
Speaker 2: if you failed to ask those questions at the beginning,
36:51
Speaker 2: which should have been about. And Gary Jubilan's very correct
36:54
Speaker 2: that you need to eliminate the possibilities before you pup.
36:57
Speaker 1: On an assumption. And yes, they've got a whole bunch
36:59
Speaker 1: of jobs.
37:00
Speaker 2: They're going from domestic violence to aggravated burglaries to you
37:03
Speaker 2: name Ittcartheff's and but each one needs that diligence, that
37:08
Speaker 2: moment of collecting one's thoughts, and that click didn't.
37:11
Speaker 4: Happen, no, And I think in the end I ended
37:15
Speaker 4: up interviewing some of the witnesses, the hairdresser. The police
37:19
Speaker 4: didn't bother initially interviewing the hairdresser who was the second
37:23
Speaker 4: last person to see Bronti conscious. So I booked a
37:26
Speaker 4: haircut and I went and had my haircut and chatted
37:30
Speaker 4: to her about Bronti. And I mean eventually the police
37:33
Speaker 4: did go and get a statement off her. She didn't
37:35
Speaker 4: attend at the hearing. But again, so what I guess
37:38
Speaker 4: I'm painting the picture here is a lazy, a lazy investigation.
37:43
Speaker 2: And official them all the way through, which is just
37:47
Speaker 2: running on expediency all the way through, And as you say,
37:50
Speaker 2: it finally gets to the coroner's verdict, and the verdict
37:54
Speaker 2: is that she probably committed suicide. And I guess in
37:58
Speaker 2: the strict terms of the coroner's court that's all he
38:01
Speaker 2: has to do a balance of probabilities kind of conclusion
38:05
Speaker 2: based on the evidence before them. So again, I think
38:08
Speaker 2: there wasn't much room for anything else, although I take
38:11
Speaker 2: your point, further investigations could have been made. But at
38:14
Speaker 2: that point, what are you left with? What can you
38:17
Speaker 2: do about that as a mother when that's the verdict.
38:20
Speaker 4: Well, I guess I've been campaigning ever since then. We
38:23
Speaker 4: were interviewed today the handings were the findings were handed
38:27
Speaker 4: down by ABC. I stated that I found the findings
38:33
Speaker 4: to be very underwhelming. And but you know, unless you
38:37
Speaker 4: well you either have a lot of money to back
38:39
Speaker 4: you to appeal to the Supreme Court. I think it
38:42
Speaker 4: is in the act. Then the only thing you can
38:46
Speaker 4: really do is get changes made. Like I must say,
38:49
Speaker 4: we don't use the word commit suicide anymore because commit
38:53
Speaker 4: suicide used to be a criminal offense.
38:56
Speaker 1: So of course, let me be corrected on that one
38:59
Speaker 1: as well.
38:59
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've I've corrected a few people over the years,
39:02
Speaker 4: but I mean I was the same. I didn't you know,
39:04
Speaker 4: I didn't have any I did, but yeah, we're always
39:06
Speaker 4: the first. My husband was like, you've got to talk
39:08
Speaker 4: to them about that.
39:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very good point, I guess, because it's
39:11
Speaker 2: a hangover from when, yeah, to take your own life
39:15
Speaker 2: was a criminal offense.
39:16
Speaker 4: Remarkably, I think there's still, you know, parts of the
39:20
Speaker 4: arm services where the attempted suicide can end up in
39:23
Speaker 4: some kind of reprimand don't quote me, but that's what
39:28
Speaker 4: i've heard. So basically, yes, i've been. I've founded with
39:34
Speaker 4: a very good friend of mine and another good friend
39:37
Speaker 4: of mine, the Alliance for Coronial Reform, and sadly my
39:42
Speaker 4: friend passed away after after being diagnosed with modeor neuron disease.
39:48
Speaker 3: And it's just me now.
39:50
Speaker 4: But what I do as well is I support other
39:52
Speaker 4: families going through the coronial process and agitating for change
39:57
Speaker 4: with a few other advocates in the Act, because we
40:00
Speaker 4: are the only jurisdiction in Australia where the Chief Magistrate
40:04
Speaker 4: is also the chief coroner, which we believe serves quite
40:09
Speaker 4: a latant conflict of interest. And I might just add
40:12
Speaker 4: here and impress that when we have a dedicated coroner now,
40:16
Speaker 4: but he's not statutory appointed, so he's not protected his
40:20
Speaker 4: position is not protected and he ends up doing quite
40:22
Speaker 4: a lot of magistrates work. When we lost Bronte, the
40:26
Speaker 4: coroners were magistrates and they just rotated them a bit
40:29
Speaker 4: like a duty officer. So another thing is that magistrates
40:34
Speaker 4: do not get trained in coronial work. And there's a
40:37
Speaker 4: you know, as we've discussed Adam, you know, the burden
40:40
Speaker 4: of proof is very different to the magistrate's court to
40:42
Speaker 4: the coroner's court, and coronials are supposed to be inquisitorial.
40:46
Speaker 4: You know what happened here, How can we change things?
40:49
Speaker 4: Blah blah blah, Whereas in the magistrates' court it's adversarial.
40:54
Speaker 4: So you've got a lot of these magistrates who aren't
40:56
Speaker 4: trained in coroners coronial work coming over to the coroner's
41:00
Speaker 4: court and you know, you can't undo what you've learned
41:03
Speaker 4: to practice in an adversarial manner, so effectively, where families
41:09
Speaker 4: are traumatized by losing their people, and then if they
41:15
Speaker 4: get a coronial hearing or in quest, they are retraumatized
41:20
Speaker 4: by effectively being almost feeling like a defendant.
41:23
Speaker 3: That's what I felt like.
41:25
Speaker 4: I was three and a half hours in the box,
41:27
Speaker 4: and you know that you've got the Act government lawyered up.
41:30
Speaker 3: You've got the AFP lawyered up.
41:33
Speaker 4: And I was made to feel like I, well, not
41:36
Speaker 4: killed my daughter, but let my daughter die.
41:38
Speaker 2: And that's something I say to people regularly, that there
41:41
Speaker 2: needs to representation for the families, both in the criminal
41:46
Speaker 2: courts and the coronial process, because people don't realize how
41:50
Speaker 2: alone the families are.
41:52
Speaker 4: Absolutely and I mean I worked at the Office of
41:55
Speaker 4: the Director of Public Prosecutions as a senior witness assistant.
41:58
Speaker 4: And you know, if so, Adam, if I punished you
42:00
Speaker 4: in the face and I got charged, you would be dafter,
42:05
Speaker 4: you'd be represented by a lawyer from the Office of
42:09
Speaker 4: the Director of Public Prosecutions. You wouldn't pay a penny. So,
42:12
Speaker 4: but that doesn't happen. In the coroner's core, people are
42:15
Speaker 4: paying tens of thousands of dollars to have their family
42:18
Speaker 4: represented and there's not going to be any generally, very
42:22
Speaker 4: very generally, nothing's going to really come out of it.
42:27
Speaker 4: You know, they can stop proceedings if a criminal, if
42:30
Speaker 4: it appears at a criminal offense has taken place, but
42:34
Speaker 4: that largely doesn't happen. They largely do the criminal first
42:37
Speaker 4: and then the coronial.
42:38
Speaker 2: Okay, So what do you want to see happen out
42:41
Speaker 2: of the tragedy of Bronti's death.
42:44
Speaker 4: Oh, so many things. I'd like a Bronti's Law, which
42:47
Speaker 4: is about a thorough assessment either at the watchhouse prior
42:52
Speaker 4: to I been after arrest at the watchhouse, prior to
42:56
Speaker 4: going in front of a magistrate or a judge, where
42:59
Speaker 4: there's a I think it's a five or six six
43:02
Speaker 4: step process that I've come up with, you know, around
43:06
Speaker 4: criminal history, mental health, physical health, cognitive, alcohol and drug use,
43:13
Speaker 4: those things. So there is something that is put in
43:17
Speaker 4: front of the magistrate when that person appears before the court,
43:20
Speaker 4: and they have that snapshot of information which is I
43:23
Speaker 4: know it's only a snapshot, but it's thorough enough to
43:26
Speaker 4: give the magistrate an idea of what's going on for
43:28
Speaker 4: this person. So you know, quite often you have to
43:31
Speaker 4: choose is it mental health or is it substance use? Yeah, no,
43:35
Speaker 4: we can have both. Sorry, We've got a lot of
43:37
Speaker 4: people out there with co career and conditions.
43:39
Speaker 3: That's what I'd like to see.
43:40
Speaker 4: I would like to see in the coronal space a
43:43
Speaker 4: lot more inclusiveness for families, are less adjust areal set up,
43:48
Speaker 4: I mean, who wants to be in a courtroom. I
43:50
Speaker 4: did go to one coronial of an Aboriginal man and
43:53
Speaker 4: they had it in the circle sentence in court. Much
43:56
Speaker 4: better family sitting around a round table with the magistrate
44:00
Speaker 4: not wearing or sorry, with a coroner not wearing a robe,
44:03
Speaker 4: wearing a suit. You know, all these little things can
44:06
Speaker 4: make a big difference to families, as well as being
44:10
Speaker 4: explained things in a language they can understand and to
44:14
Speaker 4: be supported. At the moment, we have family liaison officers
44:18
Speaker 4: at the coroner's court, but they have been told that.
44:22
Speaker 4: I was there when one of them told me that
44:23
Speaker 4: they're not allowed to emotionally support families, particularly if they
44:27
Speaker 4: have legal representation, which does not make sense to me
44:31
Speaker 4: at all.
44:31
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a long shopping list, and I thoroughly support
44:35
Speaker 2: all those That's just the basics, because I do believe
44:43
Speaker 2: in the coronial process. I think it's a very and
44:46
Speaker 2: I always say to people who approach me about missing
44:49
Speaker 2: loved ones or murders that have been solved, your real
44:52
Speaker 2: job is not to persuade the police, but to get
44:54
Speaker 2: to the coroner's court. I have to get that here
44:57
Speaker 2: and get that inquest, which you've done, and I think
44:59
Speaker 2: that's fantastic and I think it's so important. I mean,
45:02
Speaker 2: you're taking much further. But it's also part of the
45:04
Speaker 2: green process that somebody's situation, their background is recognized in
45:12
Speaker 2: the coroner's court and there is some finding that helps.
45:17
Speaker 2: Was that about helping your grieving process as well?
45:21
Speaker 4: To be honest, I think it's a bit of both.
45:22
Speaker 4: I mean, I've always been a bit of a well.
45:27
Speaker 4: As I said to the Attorney General once, I said,
45:29
Speaker 4: I know you think I'm a pain in the ars
45:31
Speaker 4: and the Attorney General said, no, don't think you are.
45:35
Speaker 4: I think you're just persistent. I said, I don't care
45:37
Speaker 4: what words you call me. I'm not going anywhere. So
45:40
Speaker 4: I've got that sense of persistence and pain in the
45:43
Speaker 4: arts attitude. I think people a lot of it's quite
45:45
Speaker 4: a few MLAs roll their eyes when I hear my name,
45:49
Speaker 4: and that's okay.
45:50
Speaker 3: It's a backhanded compliment, but it also gives me purpose.
45:54
Speaker 4: It gives me I'm not sitting in, you know, lying
45:57
Speaker 4: on the kitchen floor in the fetal position. So there
46:00
Speaker 4: is a I wouldn't call it selfish, but I would
46:03
Speaker 4: call it an element of looking after myself as far
46:08
Speaker 4: as affecting change.
46:10
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't know, it's the.
46:11
Speaker 4: Old cliche, but if I could help save one person's
46:15
Speaker 4: life and one and the domino effect that these tragic
46:20
Speaker 4: deaths have on families and friends, and my job is
46:24
Speaker 4: done simple.
46:25
Speaker 3: I'm not a saint.
46:26
Speaker 4: I'm not a saint at all, but if something needs
46:29
Speaker 4: to be done, I'll do it. I'm a prison reform
46:31
Speaker 4: advocate as well.
46:32
Speaker 3: So yeah, watch out fantastic.
46:34
Speaker 2: Well we should put in the show notes for this
46:36
Speaker 2: episode out people can get in touch with you, because
46:38
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are people listening right now who are
46:41
Speaker 2: a boat of the process or have gone through the process,
46:44
Speaker 2: and your experience would be invaluable to them.
46:47
Speaker 1: And once again, once again, let me.
46:50
Speaker 2: Thank you or being that pain in the art or persistence,
46:53
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it.
46:55
Speaker 3: Because you're not going anywhere.
46:58
Speaker 2: This is how the system eventually reforms itself through through
47:01
Speaker 2: being made accountable. And so all power to Jeene Haskins,
47:06
Speaker 2: and I want to thank you today for sharing a
47:08
Speaker 2: very difficult story. I know that it was Brontie's thirtieth birthday.
47:12
Speaker 2: In the last few days, when you think of the
47:14
Speaker 2: loss of potential that that tragedy has created.
47:18
Speaker 1: It is profoundly sad.
47:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a pretty hard week, but you know,
47:23
Speaker 3: life goes on. It is what it is.
47:26
Speaker 4: You know, we never move on. People tell me to
47:29
Speaker 4: move on, Well, no, it's not going to happen. But
47:31
Speaker 4: you might be wearing us up across the face because
47:34
Speaker 4: we move forward, but we don't move on brief and never.
47:36
Speaker 3: Grief doesn't go away. It just changes in form.
47:39
Speaker 1: No, it does.
47:40
Speaker 4: But I would also like to extend my heartfelt thanks
47:43
Speaker 4: and appreciation for having me. It's been you know, I
47:47
Speaker 4: feel very privileged to be able to speak to you
47:50
Speaker 4: and share Bronte's story. And I'm sure Bronti would be saying, yeah,
47:54
Speaker 4: go mum. And I just want to say one other thing.
47:56
Speaker 4: I'm a bit of a believer in signs. Whenever we
47:59
Speaker 4: see eagles, we think of Bronti and because she had
48:04
Speaker 4: an Eagle tas. But I was driving home from work
48:07
Speaker 4: just before this this session, and I was listening to
48:11
Speaker 4: ABC Radio. I'm a bit of a nerd now and
48:13
Speaker 4: a song came on that we played at bronti celebration,
48:16
Speaker 4: Big Yellow Taxi. And this was literally about fifteen minutes
48:20
Speaker 4: before I was getting on to speak to you, and
48:23
Speaker 4: I just thought, wow.
48:24
Speaker 3: Thanks Bronti.
48:26
Speaker 4: I think it was her saying, go mama, go, so yeah,
48:31
Speaker 4: I'm you know, I don't care.
48:32
Speaker 3: I'm going to take that as a sign.
48:34
Speaker 2: Get on your Janine. Thank you for your time today.
48:36
Speaker 2: I'm planed that you approached me, and I'm shocked at
48:40
Speaker 2: other people. He said to me that people didn't always
48:43
Speaker 2: want to talk to you. Shame on them. Shame on
48:46
Speaker 2: them because they could be in that same position one day.
48:49
Speaker 2: And I am so grateful for your time today. Thank you, Jeanine.
48:54
Speaker 2: That's amazing that story. You know that big Yellow Taxi song.
48:57
Speaker 2: You don't know what you've got until it's gone.
48:58
Speaker 3: Oh God, absolutely, yeah.
49:01
Speaker 2: And this is the whole point about our system. Without
49:04
Speaker 2: fire for the right process, without fighting for accountability, we
49:09
Speaker 2: don't know what we have until it's gone. And I
49:12
Speaker 2: hope that Brontie Haskins's story has resonated with the audience
49:15
Speaker 2: if somebody out there was facing the same struggle and
49:18
Speaker 2: done this. I've done this story over and over again
49:21
Speaker 2: where people have taken their own lives supposedly and the
49:25
Speaker 2: police have not necessarily given it the open mind that
49:28
Speaker 2: it deserves. And you know, the coronial process is so important,
49:32
Speaker 2: but it's only as good as the input, the evidence
49:35
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the process. So there are the
49:38
Speaker 2: people out there who've suffered this, please get in touch.
49:42
Speaker 2: You can always email me Adam Shander writer at gmail
49:45
Speaker 2: dot com. If you want to report a crime, please
49:48
Speaker 2: call crime Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero.
49:52
Speaker 2: Let's hope it doesn't take thirty seven hours for police
49:55
Speaker 2: to attend. Has happened in Bronti's case, But anyway, we
49:59
Speaker 2: keep trying. Just a quick note, I'm going to put
50:01
Speaker 2: a Facebook link in the show notes so people can
50:04
Speaker 2: get into with Janine's Coronial Reform Alliance and make your
50:10
Speaker 2: voice heard. This is the people's court. Our taxes pay
50:14
Speaker 2: for it. You have the right to expect better. And
50:16
Speaker 2: I think at every turn Bronte was failed by the system.
50:20
Speaker 2: Let's not let other people's children be failed in the future.
50:24
Speaker 2: Have your voice speak up, make sure there's accountability. This
50:28
Speaker 2: has been Adam Schapeter, Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
50:39
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
50:42
Speaker 2: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what Podshape really
50:45
Speaker 2: cares about. Right now, there's thousands of people listening to
50:48
Speaker 2: this show and our other True Crimes, and they're completely engaged.
50:52
Speaker 2: More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts each week.
50:56
Speaker 2: If you've ever thought about advertising your business in a podcast,
50:59
Speaker 2: there's a link to reach out in the show notes,
51:01
Speaker 2: or head to podshape dot com to book a free call.