Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 416] Fleetwood Mac: The Breakups That Made Rumours with Andrea Swensson

Transcript

[EP 416] Fleetwood Mac: The Breakups That Made Rumours with Andrea Swensson · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: If you listen to some of the early demos of
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Go Your Own Way, Lindsay is actually not fully vocalizing
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the lyrics because you can tell he's like playing the
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: demo for the band for the first time. And he's like,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I do not want Stevie to hear what I'm actually
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: going to say. Stevie wrote Dreams right after hearing Go
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Your Own Way demoed in the studio, and she's responding
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: directly to some of the things that he was saying
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: in that song. The dialogue that was occurring between these
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: artists is really amazing, and they had to work up
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: courage to actually sing these things out loud to each other.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: It just adds a layer to everything.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: We're totally bummed.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Rock and roll! Wow. I think I'll leave you to
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: your reading.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Little Hans says it's time to rock and roll. Rock
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: and roll! We are totally booked. Welcome back to Booked
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: on Rock, conversations with authors, musicians, and insiders revealing the
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: stories behind classic rock's greatest songs, albums, and artists. A
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: thank you to everybody who supports Booked on Rock on Patreon.
• 1:03
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• 1:06
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  Speaker 2: new episodes. If you'd like to grab the backstage pass,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: it's just $ 5 a month. Click the link in the
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: show notes or just go to BookedOnRock.com. Now onto our show.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Few albums have a story as legendary or as complicated
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: as Fleetwood Mac's Rumors, a record born out of heartbreak, tension,
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: and remarkable creative chemistry that went on to become one
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: of the biggest albums in rock history. In her new book,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Fleetwood Mac and Rumors 50 Years, Andrea Swenson takes us
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: inside the making of this 1977 masterpiece, the relationships that
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: fueled it, the songs that defined it, and the enduring
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: legacy it still carries half a century later. Andrea, welcome
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: back to the podcast.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for having me back.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Fleetwood Mac began, and this is interesting, this story, and
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I'm sure the longtime fans know a lot about this,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: but the history leading up to this album is so interesting.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: They started as a British blues band. led by Peter Green,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: and survived an extraordinary amount of personnel change. And for me,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: that Bob Welch era is interesting because I feel like
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: it musically helped prepare for what came next. Your thoughts
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: on the pre-Nicks Buckingham era as far as its lead
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: up to Rumors.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really fascinating. And I learned a ton.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: You know, I feel like I approached Fleetwood Mac probably
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: in the way that a lot of casual fans do.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I know the hits. I know a little bit about
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: the drama behind the band. But I had no idea
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: that they had literally put out 10 records before Rumors
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: and gone through so many different iterations, like you said.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Peter Green, you know, starting things off, naming the band
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: after his rhythm section. And it was so interesting to
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: me that it is the rhythm section that has endured
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: and pushed this band forward. And I agree with you,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: you know, in that Bob Welch era, as things were
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: starting to get into that more pop rock territory, it
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: really started priming them for this transition into, you know,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: the sound that they found with Buckingham and Nix. And
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I really think it was the combination of Christine McVie's songwriting,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: and then Stevie Nicks' songwriting and Lindsey Buckingham's songwriting, all
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: being able to share a literal stage together and to
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: be comfortable sharing the spotlight in that way with three
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: voices that really gave them that oomph to reach the
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: mainstream audience that they did with, well, first Fleetwood Mac,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: the self-titled record, and then Rumors.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: And when Lindsey and Stevie made that Buckingham Nicks album,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: they were already developing a distinctive sound together. What do
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: you hear on that record that points directly toward that
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Fleetwood Mac of 1975 and then Rumors?
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Their vocal harmonies are really special. So I think that
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: they realized that early on. You know, they were in
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: a band before that when they were coming out of
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: the kind of Bay Area scene. They met as teenagers
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: and then started a band when they were in college.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: So I think the vocal harmonies and the way that
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: their voice is blend together is such a captivating thing
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: it's almost like it creates like a third voice when
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Lindsay and Stevie sing together so I think that was
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: a big part of it and then I think the
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: fact that they each had something unique to say about
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: a relationship that they were also in together is something
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: that they started exploring on that Buckingham Knicks record what
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: does it mean to you know write a song about
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: troubles in a relationship with somebody that you are harmonizing with?
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: And what does that feel like? And what is that
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: conveying to the listener? Those are things that they were
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: starting to get into as a duo and then really
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: leaned hard into once they got into Fleetwood Mac.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Just last weekend, I saw a tribute, a Stevie tribute,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: and my older brother Marty was there with me. And
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: He said to me, because they were playing some of
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: the stuff off the 75 album, he said, man, people
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: forget about that album because Rumors is so huge. It
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: was an enormous turning point. You talk about the production,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: the arrangement choices on that record that really established the
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: template that they would refine on Rumors.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was figuring out what each member
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: could bring to the table and then making space for
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: all of it. You know, it's Christine's songwriting. She, I feel,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: is kind of the unsung hero of Fleetwood Mac in
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: many ways because she was absolutely cranking out hits. at
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: a time when the spotlight was really shining hard on
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Stevie as this new fabulous front woman, it was really
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Christine that was finding her voice as a songwriter. And
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: I think you hear that on that Fleetwood Mac record.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: And then I think it was also the way that
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Christine and Stevie's melodies and lyrics could be accentuated by
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Lindsay's arrangements. He had a real ear for putting all
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: of the different layers of these songs together so that
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: there are, you know, passages with 12 string guitar and
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: there's passages where Christine's playing a upright piano and then
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: a grand piano and then different organs and they're bringing
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: in all these different layers. and figuring out how to
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: put everything together while also giving, you know, John McVie
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: room to have these incredibly distinctive melodic baselines. And then
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Mick Fleetwood, you know, refining his strength as a drummer.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: I do think that they found some kind of chemistry
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: together as the five of them that they all found
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: to be really exciting. So the interesting thing about the
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: success of the Fleetwood Mac or the White Album is
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: is that, you know, when it came out, it wasn't
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: an immediate smash success. It took a long time for
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: it to climb the charts. And it was really when
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: they were in the studio working on Rumors that they
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: started to feel that success of getting into the top
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: 10 and then, you know, having a number one song
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: and a number one album and becoming rock stars in
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: the course of making this kind of follow-up album, which
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: turned out to be Rumors.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Sure, because it has Over My Head. It has Rhiannon
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: and Say You Love Me, which are three big hit singles.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: And that sets up the enormous success of Rumors. Lindsey Buckingham,
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: we know he could be obsessive about finding the right sound,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: the arrangements, the guitar parts. When did that perfectionism become
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: a creative strength? And when does it start creating tension?
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: I think it did both immediately, judging from stories that
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: I was finding about this era. You know, I think
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: he had a very strong point of view. And I
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: think that in a way you have to give it to,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: you know, Mick Fleetwood and John McPhee for always wanting
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: to empower a new front person to drive this thing forward,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: even though they were the longtime members of the band.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: And they wanted a leader. They wanted someone that was
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: going to take charge like that. But there definitely were
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: points where I think the trio of musicians that were,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: you know, had this more blues background, Christine and John
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: and McFleetwood were going, what, what do you want to see?
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: What kind of music are we doing right now? You know,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: he was really pushing them into this very pop, very
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: mainstream sound. And I do think that there were times
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: that they butt heads and then he just would, you know, demand,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: you know, over and over, you know, more and more
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: takes and, and trying to get it exactly right. And for,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: you know, musicians that grew up on the bar scene,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: you know, playing these long blues jams, it was not
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: something that they were necessarily used to. So there's definitely
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: some stories about, you know, that kind of coming to
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: a boiling point in the studio. But ultimately, they somehow
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: found a way to push through it because the, you know,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: product that they made together is incredible.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and to that, Stevie brought songs in that were
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: in a relatively raw form. Christine tended to arrive with
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: something more fully structured. And how did those different songwriting
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: approaches shape the way that the band worked?
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Stevie was, you know, really open to Lindsay's contributions to
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: her songs in terms of structure. And she knew that
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: she was bringing in very light sketches of songs. But
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: it's interesting to me, you know, that's kind of a...
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: narrative that was pushed for years around this, you know,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: dynamic of the band that, you know, Stevie was a
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: great lyricist, but maybe not as much of a composer
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: or thinking through all the arrangements. But if you listen
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: to something like the demo of Dreams, which is stunning,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: it's her alone on this, you know, little keyboard working
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: out the song. You can hear in her head, there's
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: rhythms pulsing through it. Like it has and a vibe.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: It has an atmosphere to it, even with just her
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: voice and that keyboard. So I think the dynamic was
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: that Lindsay was able to hear the things that she
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: maybe wasn't technically able to lay out herself as a musician.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: But I do think that she was really composing, you know,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: these interesting songs, you know, compelling structures and lots of
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: room for, you know, adding all these layers that he
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: would later add in. So I just think that she
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: also deserves respect as a songwriter because I hear it
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: in the demos regularly. you know, even when she's just alone.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Regarding the balance of power inside the group, I'm curious
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: as to how quickly things change or how that all
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: played out because the rhythm section, as you mentioned, years
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: of history together, Lindsay and Stevie, they arrived, they had
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: their own long personal and musical history. So did those
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: existing partnerships, was there a clash or did they click
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: right away in terms of once these songs are written
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: and it comes time to recording the songs?
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Well, I think there was a whole lot more going
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: on than just what was happening musically in the studio.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: So I hear. That made it an interpersonal drama. Let's
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: say that he, you know, with Stevie and Lindsay going
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: through kind of an on and off again relationship and
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: leading into a breakup, you know, as they're beginning to
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: start on Rumors and then Christine and John McVie going
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: through this kind of extended separation and divorce. I think
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: it led to a really close friendship between Stevie and Christine,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: you know, being the women out on the road together
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: and going through these Ups and downs of not just
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: relationship turmoil, but also what does it mean to be
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: in this growing, successful band that is suddenly getting all
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: this attention. So I think that did lead to some
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: maybe quick bonding that wouldn't have happened if there weren't
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: all these external factors happening to them at the time.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: But I do think it took a while. And I
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: don't know if all five of them ever really gelled
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: as like good buds. You know, they were very different people.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: And I think they all appreciated that they were bringing
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: their full personalities to the table and that they could
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: be these kind of five characters. There's all these different
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: quotes from the members talking about how if you look
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: at all five of them backstage as they're getting ready
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: to go on, it looks like they're in five different bands.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Like they didn't dress the same. They didn't act the same.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: They had totally different demeanors. And in a way that
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: made it even more compelling to put this together.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Because by the time they hit the stage together and
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: you hear the recordings, they're gelling, you know, that's what's
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: maybe it's, it is the music that really brought them together.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And that's when they were closest is when they're, performing
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: together because once they're off stage everything everybody would split
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: and go their own ways do you think the rumors
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: line up work because their personalities complemented one another as
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: far as like you say like with stevie and christine
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: or or the friction between everybody did that create something
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: that none of them could have made alone I think.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: The friction certainly fueled the interest in them. And at
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: a point, they just totally leaned into it. They knew
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: that people were talking about their relationships and what was
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: going on with them. And the songs were directly addressing these,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: you know, fallouts in their, you know, romantic entanglements. I
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: forgot to mention, you know, Mick Fleetwood also getting a
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: divorce through this whole period. So none of them are
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: having a great time.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: And it's all coming out in the music. And I mean,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: even the title of the album, Rumors, that was a
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: John McVie idea. Why don't we just call it this?
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Because there's so many rumors swirling in the media about
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: us and our relationships. So I think that they were
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: able to really pull into that friction and make it
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: kind of a selling point of what you're going to
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: see when you go see this band on tour. They
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: might be kind of simmering. And have these emotional moments
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: on stage where you're not sure if they even want
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: to be there. But it's coming out in the music.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, the kind of more iconic video that seems
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: to resurface every six months now on TikTok is Stevie
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: singing Silver Springs to Lindsey Buckingham. And you can see that.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: The agony and the tension and the love and the,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: you know, all of and like the resentment and all
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: of it, you know, in their relationship coming out in this,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: you know, couple minutes of live performance. And if that's
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: something that you can tap into every night as you're
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: touring behind a record that's literally about all of you
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: breaking up like that is incredible. It is.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: But it seems like for the most part, Lindsay was
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: always encouraging that with Stevie, like, just go for it.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Don't don't hold back.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah you hate my.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Guts just put it all out there you know because
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: that he knew that created great.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Art absolutely yeah and i think that they you know
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: who's to say what's performance and what's real at that
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: point when you're doing this show you know dozens sure
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: hundreds of times but i think that they both realized
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: that they were giving the audience something real and whether
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: that carried, you know, offstage and whether they even wanted
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: to see each other when they weren't performing, you know,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: it was a whole other story. But I do think that, yeah,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: that was something massive that they tapped into that wasn't
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: really part of going to see a live rock performance
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: before that.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Well, what probably didn't help, though, was the small space
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: they recorded in, right? The record plant in Sausalito was
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: relatively small, right?
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Teeny tiny. Yeah, I would love a chance to walk
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: those halls. I've watched some videos of people going on
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: tours and it really does give you this like almost
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: like Hobbit-esque feeling because the walls and the hallways were
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: even curved a little bit. So it felt like you're
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: kind of in the tunnels and going through these little studios.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Everything was dark wood paneling and really intimate little tiny spaces.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: And they, yeah, at, you know, points where, you know,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: furious with each other, but then having to go into
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: this little, you know, 10 by 20 room and, and
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: sing into a microphone together. And that also is just
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: incredible to think about, you know, when you're going through
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: something like that, it's probably the last place that you
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: would want to be, but they were somehow able to
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: just turn their attention to the music and make it happen.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Co-producers Ken Kelly and Richard Dashett, crucial to the sound
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: of the record. What did they bring that helped turn
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: all of that personal chaos into such a polished album?
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Well, the funny thing is neither of them had extensive
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: studio engineering experience, but they each brought something unique. Richard
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Dashett was the live sound engineer for the band, so
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: he had gotten to know the whole group really well
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: just by being out on the road and spending long
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: days together and long nights together working together. So he
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: had become kind of a confidant and he was the
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: kind of black box that all of their drama was being,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: you know, channeled into as they all confided in him
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: and told them, you know, told him what they were
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: going through personally and a close friend of all the
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: different members of the band. Ken Kiley, you know, he
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: crossed paths with the group when they were in L.A. working.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: They were doing a I believe a radio mix of
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: one of the songs. So he, it was just a
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: quick job. He was supposed to mix, you know, this
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: one live performance that was going to air on a
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: radio station in LA. Met the band. They came in
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: to hear how the mixes were going and they just
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: absolutely loved his work. So he had some kind of
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: ear tuned to their dynamic and their sound that they
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: really appreciated. And it was Mick Fleetwood that reached out
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: and said, hey, you know, we need someone to help
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: us with this new record. Why don't you come up
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: and help us? And they really took a chance on
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: him because they felt like he understood what they were
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: trying to do dynamically and, you know, through their sound. Yeah,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: two totally different ends of the spectrum. You have the
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: confidant and then this kind of studio wizard that was
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: kind of up and coming. And they were able to
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: spend months and months and months together. I think it
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: was a total of something like three months that they
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: were up in Sausalito at the record plant and then
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: many more months of mixing and overdubbing in various studios
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: in L.A., So by the end of the project, I
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: think Kim Kiley had been working with the band for
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: something like 11 months when they finally had a sequence
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: of the record ready to hand in.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Man, the fights he must have been in between trying
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: to mediate those. Andrea Swenson, right? Andrea Swenson is the
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: author of Fleetwood Mac and Rumors, 50 years. It's due
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: out October 27th? Yeah. Okay. So let's get into the
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: tracks now. Secondhand news and never going back again. Songs
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: like that. they came out of Lindsay's breakup with Stevie,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: but one is upbeat and rhythmic, the other intricate and intimate.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: What do those songs tell us about the different ways
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: he translated heartbreak into music?
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you get to hear, you know, different moods,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: you know, the secondhand news, a little bit spiteful, a
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: little bit harsh, and then also just a really uplifting,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: rollicking song. And I always am drawn to contrasts like
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: that in music when someone's Expressing something that has one emotion,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: but then it making you feel this other way. And then,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: you know, with Never Going Back Again, it's so wistful
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: and it's so reminiscent of the early recordings that he
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: made with Stevie in the, you know, Buckingham Nicks era.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: And it's got this really beautiful, complex guitar work. And
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: it's really short. Something that really struck me as I
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: was looking, you know, track by track through this record
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: is there's multiple tracks on this album that have only
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: one person playing. You know, you think about all the
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: personalities and all these musicians, but we've got that, you know,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: track with Lindsay doing Never Going Back Again and then
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Songbird with Christine alone at the grand piano. I think
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: it's remarkable that before you even finish the first side
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: of the album, you've heard full band arrangements and you've
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: paired it all down to just one person. And I
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: think it takes a certain amount of cooperativeness, maybe. Yeah.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: To have three songwriters that are willing to share the
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: microphone and share the spotlight in that way. And I
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: think that's another way that they're just totally unique, that
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: they were, you know, so appreciative of each other's talents
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: that they wanted it to be, you know, up front
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: and center.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: And Stevie Songz, Dreams, Gold Dust Woman, they occupy very
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: different emotional spaces. How did the band and the producers
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: shape the hypnotic restraint of one and then the darker,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: more ominous atmosphere of the other?
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: For Stevie, I think she found something in the live
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: performances of Rhiannon. I think they all did. But especially
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: her vocally, what she was able to do in that song.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: At one point, she totally blew out her vocal cords
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: and lost her whole voice touring behind that first Fleetwood
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Mac record. But I think that where she was able
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: to go full-throated and fully conjuring this witchy woman who's
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: wailing and going into this other plane, I hear that
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: again a little bit in Dreams and then certainly on
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Gold Dust Woman where she's just really laying into those
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: vocals and going full just soul-deep performance. And I think
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: that that's something that Lindsay was really wanting to embrace
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: as well. And I'm sure, you know, playing that live
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Rhiannon helped them to kind of get into that space.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: But it was interesting thinking about the recording of Gold
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: Dust Woman. They were fantastic. at that point, famous. This
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: was a few months into the recording of Rumors. There
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: were media and groupies everywhere crammed into these little hallways
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: of the record plant. And there was even a journalist
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: in the control room watching Stevie sing Gold Dust Woman.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And they talked about her doing it again and again
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: and again. And on like the eighth take, she finally
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: was happy with how, you know, full throttle she was
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: able to go with her vocal delivery. So it's, To me,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: it's just so remarkable to think about these deeply personal
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: songs and this incredibly raw presentation and performance, and they're
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: doing it while there's just random people, you know, trying
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: to hang out and like be around rock stars. And
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: it's this whole moment in music history, and they were
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: able to somehow keep it so intimate and so raw
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: and so real.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about Christine a little bit more and the
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: range of her songwriting and particularly on this album. Don't Stop, Songbird,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: you mentioned, You Make Loving Fun. Three very different responses
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: to love and change. Talk about her songwriting skills. Is
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: she at her peak here?
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: I think so. Well, I think that whole, you know,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: maybe 73 to 77, 78, she was just cranking out
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: incredible songs that were so true to her own experiences,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: even though she denied it. She would say, oh, my
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: songs aren't autobiographical. You know, these are just stories. They
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: just happen to line up with things going on in
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: my life. But yeah, You Make Loving Fun, that is
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: an ode to her basically side piece at the time.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: She had fallen in love with the band's lighting director
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: and they were They were running around having a good time.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: So it's a little amazing to me that, you know,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: she had her ex-husband come into the studio and lay
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: down a bass part on this song about this relationship.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: That's kind of unfolding in front of everyone's eyes.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Just boggles the mind. Could you ever do that? I
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: know I couldn't.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I know the amount of humility is like, it's really incredible.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And that's just devotion to the art. I think as well.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: It's like, just put that all aside and just, remember
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: what's most important is we've got an album to make,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: you know, and we want to make the best album
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: we could possibly make.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, don't stop is such an uplifting song.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: And the fact that she wrote it, well, you know,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: her marriage is ending, but it's supposed to be like
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: pumping everyone up. Like we're going to get through this.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Like that's another just wonderful, pure emotion. And then songbird
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: is so incredibly tender and, And sweet and heart-rending. I
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: know I found a couple quotes from John McVie and
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Mick Fleetwood talking about how every night, every single night
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: when she would play that one on tour, they would cry.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: And that's just so incredible. You know, they talked about
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: she can make grown men cry. You know, she's just
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: got this range of emotions that she's pouring into these songs.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: And then something I remembered when you were saying, you know,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: to think about all the things they're going through and
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: then going into the studio with these people and having
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: to express it. If you listen to some of the
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: early demos of Go Your Own Way, Lindsay is actually
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: not fully vocalizing the lyrics because you could tell he's
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: like playing the demo for the band for the first time.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: And he's like, I do not want Stevie to hear
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: what I'm actually going to say. Oh, wow.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I have to listen to that. Is that on the
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: deluxe edition?
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, I got to hear it.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting. And then if you play that one
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: first and then Dreams, Stevie wrote Dreams right after hearing
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Go Your Own Way demoed in the studio, and she's
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: responding directly to some of the things that he was
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: saying in that song. So it's just the dialogue that
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: was occurring, you know, between these artists is really amazing.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: And they had to work up courage to actually, like,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: sing these things out loud to each other. It just
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: adds a layer to everything.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Are you surprised Don't Stop was included on the album? Thankfully,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: it was for them because it's a huge hit, but
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: it's an uplifting, happy song amidst a very dark set
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: of songs around it. Maybe they figured we need something
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: like that in there. I wonder what their mindset was
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: as far as including it.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't remember at what point, you know, in
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: the sequencing that one got added. But I do know
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: that for the longest time, you know, Silver Springs was
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: supposed to be part of the album. And then they
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: just realized it was way too long. At that point,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: you know, you're mainly releasing things on to LPs and
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: you're limited to 22 minutes aside. So I think something
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: like Don't Stop was a great thing to put in there. Yeah.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Because it could have, you know, a song from Christine
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: that was shorter and punchier and that could really get
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: to the point and was probably a good candidate for
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: a radio single. But yeah, I know that that process
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: of figuring out exactly what songs could go on there was,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: you know, the last few months of everything. Yeah.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: It's a nice little rainbow through the clouds. It is,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Well, and then to have this funny story about how
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: it was embraced by Bill Clinton 20 years later, and
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: then it led to the reunion of the five people
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: from the Rumors era. It's kind of amazing, too.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: On Go Your Own Way, Stevie really objected to Lindsay's lyric,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: the shacking up lyric. Yes. Where does artistic expression end
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: and responsibility to the person you're writing about begin?
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: So when you think about how closely together these songs
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: were written and recorded, you know, it almost makes you wonder,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: was he trying to egg her on? Was this part
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: of the process? You know, he's going to test the
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: response from her and what it would do to, you know,
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: say something like that that he knew was going to
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: get under her skin. Yeah, I don't know for sure.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Only they would know that. But I do wonder if
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: part of it was work. We're in this dialogue and
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I'm pushing your buttons. And I want to see what
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: you come back with.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah. The chain assembled from pieces of different songs.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: The only track credited to all five members. And I
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: feel like that song ultimately represents Fleetwood Mac better than
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: any other song on the album. Oh, yeah.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: It is. I mean, it's kind of the quintessential song.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: you know, lightning in a bottle moment for these five musicians.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: And they each get something really cool. You know, Mick's
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: got this great drum part. Obviously, John McVie has that
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: iconic bass solo that came out of all these different
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: jams that they were doing that, you know, fills the bridge.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: And it's just, I mean, you can't really say that
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: about too many bass solos. Like, wow, you know, like
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: everyone would recognize that. And then... Christine had an early
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: version of a song that was called Keep Me There.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: And at one point, I think it was called Butter Cookie.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: And it was starting to kind of conjure the mood
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: of the chain, but not any of the lyrics. And
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: then Stevie had the lines that ended up kind of
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: becoming the main chorus. And, you know, Lindsay had all
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: the different guitar parts that he was adding in. So
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: it really is like a representation of all of their
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: different personalities and musical voices and contributions all coming together
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: and I mean, it's so poetic that it's called The
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Chain and that it was like literally a chain of
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: all of these different bits and pieces of things that
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: they had been working on. But I mean, when you
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: hear all of them come together on the harmonies, it's
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: just chilling. And to see it live, you know, back
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: then on tour and then when they reunited in the 90s,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: like that is just one of those songs that is
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: at their full power. Fleetwood Mac.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Two less discussed tracks on the album are I Don't
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Want to Know and Oh Daddy. I think they contribute
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: to the emotional balance and the pacing of Side 2.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: The levity of I Don't Want to Know is really
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: you know, coming out of the chain too, which is
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: such a heavy, you know, statement. And then you have
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: this little kind of almost like a country song. With
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: these little twangy harmonies. So that was the song that
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: they ended up putting on to the track list after
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: they took off Silver Springs. And Stevie kind of saw
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: it as like a consolation prize because they wanted her
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: to have, you know, a decent number of songs on
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: the record. They felt bad that they had taken off her,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: what was really her baby, like the song that she
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: was really in love with and proud of. So that was,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: you know, something that they added there. towards the end
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: of sequencing the record. And I do think you hear
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: a little bit of, you know, maybe what it would
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: have been like to go see a Buckingham Knicks show,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: you know, when they were touring their first record together,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: because it is very focused on the harmonies between Lindsay
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: and Stevie. And then Oh Daddy is Christine McVie's tribute
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: to Mick Fleetwood. You know, he was the only father
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: of the group at this point, and he was really
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: the daddy of Fleetwood Mac, this group. kind of guiding
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: figure that led the band through all of these different iterations.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: And he was also going through this divorce. So it
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: was kind of a tribute to him as this leading
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: figure and also someone who's going through a really difficult
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: period of his own. So he gets a little moment
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: there through Christine's voice.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I don't want to know. It's a great example, though,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: of this is the 70s. This is the pre-digital era.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: This is technology shaping technology. artistic history and music history.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: You don't have to do that now. And now if
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: you listen to it on Spotify, they include Silver Springs
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: and people almost assume, especially the younger generation, oh, that
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: must've been on the album, but it was not. I
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: thought it was on the album. Did you?
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: You had to decide. Yeah, that's what's fascinating. I guess
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: in many ways, it's a good thing because then you
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: kind of got when the CDs came along, kind of
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: over bloated a lot of these albums, double albums that
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: you're just thinking, boy, they could have left this off.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: But I think the musicians were very excited about including
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: all of the work that they wanted to put in
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: because now you could. But at the same time, final era,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: it forces you to pick the best of the best.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: But in this situation, you could argue that against that.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: But Silver Springs, would it have been as powerful? Like
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: you mentioned that great moment in the dance in 1997,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: would it have been as powerful if it had been
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: on the original album all along?
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think it all comes down to whether
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: it would have been chosen as a single. And I
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: don't know if it would have with the length. Although,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: you know, there were some pretty long songs that made
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: it to, you know, radio single status in the 70s.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe they would have given it a radio edit or something.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: But that is such a good question. I don't know
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: if we'll ever be able to answer it because it's
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: so tied to the reunion and this resurgence that they
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: had in the 90s. And I mean, what an incredible
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: way to come back and And show people that you
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: still got the intensity and the telling in your music.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: But the song itself, though, I'm assuming the longtime fans
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: at that time in 1997, maybe that song was circulating
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: around bootlegs. People knew that that was a song they
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: were probably discussing in the early internet era. Like, why
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: the hell did they leave that off? And so for
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: her to come out there and play it. A lot
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: of those fans that were older must have been like, oh,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: my God, she's playing it. This is the song that
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: was left off, right? And for Stevie, too. So they
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: must have been so happy for her. Because what did
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: she say afterwards? This is a very special song to
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: me or something. She made some comment.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Well, and I think it also maybe speaks to how
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: tied it was for her to this era and to
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: this band. Because there's other songs that got cut from
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Rumors and other Fleetwood Mac albums that Stevie would just
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: put on her solo albums. and turn into something else.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: A few tracks, actually, that got left on the cutting
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: room floor for rumors ended up on later albums, Bella Donna,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: and then even, you know, albums she was releasing in
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: the 2000s. So, you know, it's interesting to me that
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: she didn't try to have it have a new life
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: or a different life in her other work. And you
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: almost wonder if that's a song that she just felt
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: like she had to sing And to Lindsay in order
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: for it to maintain its kind of potency that it
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: certainly has.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: That tour to support Rumors. What do you know about
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: in putting this book together about what it was like
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: for them to perform these songs night after night in
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: front of each other?
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: I know it got rough for everybody, but it also
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: got a lot better because, you know, they started out
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: when Lindsay and Stevie joined the band, they were still
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: in a van. You know, they were sleeping on suitcases.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: They were, you know, making it work. And by the
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Rumors tour, they were in private jets. They were taking limousines.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: They were getting the full red carpet treatment from the label.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: And this was. It was the most successful, you know,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: two albums now that Warner Brothers Records had ever released.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: So they were like, you know, not just rock stars,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: but they were like saving this label and making it
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: legitimate and making it huge. So I think there was
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: Division on the road. You know, Stevie and Christine talked
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: a lot about the time that they would spend together,
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: that they would always, you know, make sure that they
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: had either joining rooms or were kind of in their
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: own little area so that they can decompress together and have,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of girlfriend time together to you know
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: talk about all this crazy stuff but um the other
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: huge thing that was happening during the recording of rumors
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: and during the tour was rampant uh drug use and
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: abuse um so that was a huge factor as well
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: um and led to a lot of you know probably
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: unnecessary drama poor decision making kind of um inflated situations
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: for everybody in the band and But Stevie has been
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: very vocal in the years since about her addiction to
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: cocaine that really started in this period. And that was
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: a very common substance during performances. There's stories of, you know,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Mick Fleetwood would have little bottle caps full of cocaine
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: on a tray next to his drum kit so that
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: he could take bumps in between songs and You know,
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: it was backstage and it was, you know, on the
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: buses and in the airplanes and it was just everywhere.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: And I think that was probably common for a lot
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: of rock bands in this era. But that was certainly
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: another thing that was kind of driving the bus, so
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: to speak.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Stevie said she almost died. Yeah.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, by the mid 80s, she actually went to
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: the doctor and they told her that if she didn't
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: stop doing cocaine, she was going to lose her notes.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was decaying the nasal passages of her
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: notes like it was. very, very intense stuff. And she's
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: had other substance use issues after that. And now, you know,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: has been clean for a long time and is really
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: honest about all of it and will speak about it.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: And yeah, but that was a huge thing as well.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: You know, as they're dealing with the pressures of fame
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: and trying to keep up with the demands of this
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: extremely successful album, they're also trying to just keep going.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: And I know a couple of them have talked about
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: how cocaine was in a way like a something that
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: they felt they needed because it was just so exhausting.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: They were under, you know, doing so much work and
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: under so much pressure and just had to deliver every day.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: So this was a way that they found, you know,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: that worked for them for a while.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: That enormous success of the album, of course, made them
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: a cultural phenomenon almost overnight. So the question is, did
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: that success help keep the band together or did it
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: simply make it too hard for them to walk away
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: from one another, and they just had to stay together.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: I think they all had this commitment to Fleetwood Mac,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: the band and the sound and the music that they
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: made together, that despite all of the other issues and
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: problems that were going on, they wanted to see this through.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: And they knew that once they became successful, that it
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: was going to be easier and easier to have their
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: music heard. So I think there was a shared commitment
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: kind of passion and commitment to just the craft of
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: the music that they're making together and to just persevere
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: through all of this. But I know that for the
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: following album, Tusk, that was probably the hardest point in
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: their interpersonal dynamics and their dynamics in the studio, especially
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: with Lindsay and him, you know, really wanting to take
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: control as the lead producer on the album. All of
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: that kind of came to a head. following the Rumors
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: tour and when they tried to go back into the
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: studio again.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: You call the epilogue a 50-year situationship. What do you
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: think is the biggest reason that Rumors has endured, not
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: just as a hugely successful record, but as an album
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: that people continue to feel personally connected to 50 years
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: later of all generations?
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of things. I think musically
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: it just sounds kind of timeless. They really tapped into
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: a raw form of songwriting and performance that has come
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: and gone and come and gone for 50 years now.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: You know, this singer songwriter almost bordering into like an
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Americana type of rock sound. That has had just such
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: an enduring popularity and is so relatable to so many
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: music listeners. So I think that is a big part
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: of it. And then I think it's just the pure
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: emotional honesty of the music and the fact that, you know,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: every story that could possibly have come out about them
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: has now come out. And it only adds to the
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: allure of what they were saying in the music. And
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: you can see how rooted in their own lived experiences
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: every word of every song is. And that is pretty unique.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: You know, when you get to that level of fame
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: and success in the music industry, especially this day and age,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: you know, there's people basically in a lab trying to
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: cook up how to make a perfect song that's going
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: to relate to the most amount of people. And, you know,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: often you'll see 10 different songwriters contributing to, you know,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: songs on new albums. And this was just these five
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: people and they had something to say and it came
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: directly from them to us. And I think that has
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: really allowed it to stay relevant because, yeah, like I said, there's,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: you know, a lot of other elements being added now
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: to music and that there's a lot more pretense and
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: branding and, you know, all of these things that artists
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: have to think about now just to be heard. And
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: this is just such a pure expression.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Fleetwood Mac and Rumors, 50 years, due out October 27th.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: You can pre-order now through Amazon, through quarter books at quarter.com
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: and other outlets. There are over 200 photographs and pieces
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: of memorabilia in here. So want to make sure people
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: also know this is not just a great piece of work.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: from your aspect, Andrea, as a writer, but you got
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: all of these photos and then you have the sidebars
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: that address topics like the album artwork, reissues that came out,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: each individual member. So it's a visual celebration. It's a
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: comprehensive chronicle of an album that continues to define pop
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: rock perfection. A half a century later, where can people
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: find you online, Andrea?
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Well, I have a website, andreaswenson.com. That's where I post
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: about my latest books and projects. And you can actually order,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: if you want, a signed copy. I'd love to send
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: you one. And I'm on social media as well at
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Slingshot Annie.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Okay. The Prince podcast, are you still doing that?
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: I would love to make more Prince podcasts. I have
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: not been asked back. There hasn't been a big box
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: set in quite a while, and that was really what
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: we geared the seasons around.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: So hopefully I would love to get that call again
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: because it would mean there's more music coming out of
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Prince's vault.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Andrea Swenson, thank you so much.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: That's it. It's in the books.