Latest / Becker's Healthcare Behavioral Health / J.R. Greene, Founder and Chairman of Psychiatric Medical Care

Transcript

J.R. Greene, Founder and Chairman of Psychiatric Medical Care · Becker's Healthcare Behavioral Health

0:00
This is Laura Dierdo with the Becker's Healthcare
0:02
podcast. I'm thrilled today to be joined by
0:04
JR Green, founder and chairman of the Psychiatric
0:07
Medical Care. JR, it's a pleasure to have
0:09
you on the podcast today. Thank you. Thank
0:11
you for having me. Absolutely. Now I'm excited
0:13
for our conversation because I know behavioral health
0:15
is a huge challenge right now for many
0:17
hospitals and health systems and especially
0:20
rural and in community hospitals that are trying
0:22
to figure out how to serve a broad
0:23
population with many diverse needs. And so I'm
0:26
excited to dig in a little bit deeper
0:28
with you today and talk about some of
0:29
the themes that you're seeing in the health
0:31
care space as well as how behavioral health
0:34
is really evolving right now. But before we
0:36
dive in, can you introduce yourself and just
0:38
tell us a little bit more about psychiatric
0:39
medical care? You bet. You bet. And by
0:41
the way, just in the intro, I absolutely
0:43
loved how you called it the psychiatric medical
0:46
care. So for all the Ohio State fans
0:48
and the Miami fans out there, you basically
0:50
you gave us that wonderful introduction is similar
0:53
to what they all do at the Ohio
0:54
State University or the University of Miami, and
0:56
they love
0:57
to have the in front of their name
0:59
on that sports side. So the psychiatric medical
1:02
care,
1:03
makes me have a nice chuckle this morning.
1:05
And, you know, I think the big thing
1:07
is,
1:07
as we dive into the background of psychiatric
1:09
medical care, I think the name,
1:12
is one that I've had a lot of
1:13
fun with for, many years. And the reason
1:15
being is when I go to an event
1:17
or I go to a dinner and I
1:18
meet people and I let them know that
1:19
I work, for psychiatric medical care, their next
1:21
question is, oh, great. What's the name of
1:23
the company? Well,
1:24
it's, it's it's psychiatric medical care. Because immediately
1:27
when you hear that name, you usually think,
1:29
oh, psychiatric medical care. Because I do love
1:31
the fact that our name represents exactly what
1:34
we do. Because so many organizations out there
1:36
have
1:37
flamboyantly
1:38
beautiful different names, but it doesn't necessarily
1:42
align to what their service is. So, I
1:44
know the name may may be a little
1:45
bit boring on the marketing side, psychiatric medical
1:48
care, but, I, I just wanted to start
1:50
with that, Laura. Loved how you called it
1:51
the psychiatric medical care. But real quick, the
1:53
company,
1:54
has four different divisions. We operate,
1:58
mainly today across,
2:00
close to 300 different locations in 34 states.
2:03
The four divisions are our intensive outpatient psychiatry
2:06
program that primarily is focused in rural hospitals
2:09
across the country,
2:10
where we partner with those hospitals, integrate with
2:12
those hospitals to bring an outpatient behavioral program
2:15
to that community.
2:17
Our second division is child IOP and PHP
2:20
of which we provide this more to an
2:22
urban market,
2:23
and that is where we provide treatment really
2:25
for ages nine to 18 for children, again,
2:28
for an IOP or PHP,
2:30
level of care. Our third division is inpatient
2:33
psychiatry. And in that location, we mainly are
2:35
partnering with large hospitals, which you may know,
2:38
for those listeners, PPS level hospitals. So,
2:41
really looking to med you know, manage more
2:43
of a 12 plus size, psych unit within
2:46
a hospital.
2:47
And then the fourth division is telehealth. And
2:49
so in that, we're providing telehealth into multiple
2:52
locations,
2:53
either into the acute wing or a psychiatric
2:56
facility,
2:57
even EDs, rural health care,
2:59
facilities, and we go all the way into
3:01
jails, providing that level of care to be
3:03
able to get them an MD, an NP,
3:05
a therapist,
3:06
even a nurse on call so that we
3:08
can get that level of care to almost
3:09
any location in The United States.
3:12
That's amazing to hear. And, you know, what
3:13
great services or programs you can provide to
3:15
hospitals and and patients to communities at all
3:18
levels. Now I'm curious. When you look at
3:21
the last year or so, could you talk
3:22
a little bit about the initiative you led
3:24
that had the best results? What did you
3:26
do, and how did you track them?
3:28
You know, I think one of the the
3:30
best level that we did was opening up,
3:32
our embrace you program. And and the real
3:35
the real fun reason around this was, and
3:37
I say fun because it is fun, is
3:39
I was the assistant coach, of a baseball
3:41
team. And I started having a lot of
3:43
parents coming to me because they knew I
3:44
worked for a behavioral health organization called psychiatric
3:47
medical care. So, again, getting back to the
3:48
obvious nature of what we do. And the
3:50
parents started asking me questions around what type
3:52
of medication do I need for my son.
3:54
I had five children on the baseball team
3:56
of 12 that had ADHD.
3:58
And immediately, you know, I I'd noticed that
4:00
this is a is a huge need, here
4:03
in the Nashville market. So I was able
4:04
to go back to the board of directors.
4:06
I put together, you know, obviously, the needs
4:07
when you go and speak with the board
4:09
and for those, on the call that have
4:10
board of directors that they report into, you
4:13
gotta have a lot of data, got a
4:14
lot of information to be able to share
4:15
with them of why this is a necessary
4:17
need in the marketplace.
4:19
And the great news is it was a
4:21
huge need, especially for our level of an
4:23
IOP, which has a medical director focus.
4:26
There are IOPs out there that are more
4:28
coaching IOPs, Laura.
4:30
So meaning those are types of individuals that
4:32
call in for care. It's usually a 100%
4:34
virtual, and in some locations, it may be
4:36
in person, but it doesn't have an actual
4:38
psychiatrist
4:39
or an or an NP involved, which is
4:41
highly medical. So it gives it that much
4:44
higher level of care,
4:45
and what I'll call really backed into outcomes
4:48
and scientific studies around that. As well as
4:50
when you're managing children,
4:52
there can be just a huge need to
4:54
have in person level of care. If you
4:56
can imagine a 10 year old sitting in
4:58
front of a computer screen, maybe a little
4:59
bit more difficult to manage the care rather
5:02
than having them in a room, with group
5:04
psychotherapy with an IOP or PHP level of
5:07
care.
5:07
But we really began to notice in Nashville
5:10
that this was needed, to have that level
5:12
of care,
5:13
and certainly it was. Because once we opened
5:15
the program, we were full within several months,
5:17
and now we've opened up, already, I believe,
5:19
six locations in the state of Tennessee.
5:22
That's amazing to hear. And, you know, what
5:23
a great story of how you noticed a
5:25
meeting in the community and then were able
5:27
to bring it to the organization and develop
5:29
right programming and systems in place.
5:32
And I'm curious, you know, when you look
5:33
at that and when you're working with different
5:35
organizations, when you're working with some of the,
5:38
different hospitals or or systems, what do you
5:40
notice about, the
5:42
behavioral health culture in in the services they're
5:45
they're providing? How do you build a behavioral
5:47
health culture that's gonna be beneficial
5:49
for those who are, within the organization as
5:51
well as the community?
5:53
Great question, Laura. Great question. You know, this
5:55
is one of the most, unique pieces and,
5:58
you know, and I'd have to say I
5:59
had a little bit of a,
6:01
wonderful upbringing. I was raised by a psychiatrist.
6:03
So, I'm able to say I've had fifty
6:05
years of, of psychiatric experience with my father
6:08
being a psychiatrist
6:09
when he was practicing. So that right there
6:12
really helped me to have a good grounding.
6:13
And then when I joined,
6:15
the psychiatric medical care over fifteen years ago,
6:19
our organization was very small. And I think
6:22
one of the big things of how to
6:23
build any type of organization, but obviously,
6:26
in the behavioral health realm,
6:29
I needed to help create even for myself
6:31
as the company began to grow.
6:33
Different types of people love different types of
6:35
work. And I think that burnout and a
6:37
lot of the elements today that we hear
6:39
about, you know, can quickly align to personality
6:42
types, skill
6:43
sets, being aligned to the right position, and
6:45
their right passion. And what I mean by
6:47
that is what over time is I I
6:49
needed to really develop something so that I
6:51
can understand the my own organization and what
6:53
was how it was building. But also individuals
6:56
that were working within psychiatric medical care would
6:58
know what seat on the bus they wanna
7:00
be in. So I think the first step
7:02
is when you're building a behavioral organization or
7:04
any organization,
7:05
you wanna find the right people on the
7:07
bus. Right? You wanna get the right people
7:09
on the bus, and then you've gotta find
7:10
out the right seat. So how do you
7:12
do that? Well, I'd really help kinda develop
7:14
three phases of any organization.
7:17
The three phases are starting out with improv.
7:19
And you know what, Laura? You gotta fake
7:20
it till you make it. I mean, in
7:21
that capacity,
7:23
you're you're just trying to find a way,
7:25
and you're always just like improv. You're saying
7:27
and and and. You never say but, and
7:29
you don't stop. You just keep moving forward
7:31
because there's always an opportunity.
7:33
But, obviously, you have no swim lanes.
7:36
It's very broad, and you're just trying to
7:38
literally make it. And you're trying to find
7:40
ways of growth,
7:42
obviously, being frugal as you're building out any
7:44
department within the hospital or any type of
7:46
organization.
7:47
But you also have to find individuals that
7:49
wanna work for an improv level of care
7:52
within your hospital,
7:53
or within your organization. Meaning, they like that
7:56
type of style.
7:57
They want to have no swim lanes. They
7:59
are eager, almost like what you would call
8:01
entrepreneurship. You know, they wanna be able to
8:03
get in and be entrepreneurs within their
8:05
department and be able to just just go.
8:08
That's the improv. The second phase is musical.
8:11
So now you still have a live show.
8:12
So think about Hamilton,
8:14
Cats, any of these, you know, Andrew Lloyd
8:16
Webber. Just start thinking about all the musicals
8:18
we've seen in the world. Well, you'll you'll
8:20
notice in those musicals that the show is
8:22
still live. There are still mistakes made, but
8:24
there are understudies. There is a treatment plan.
8:27
There is detail, and therefore, the swim lanes
8:30
are absolutely
8:31
significantly narrower than an improv.
8:34
And so people are able to work within
8:36
that. So you then have different types of
8:37
people that love to be in musicals. They
8:39
love that level to where there are swim
8:42
lanes. They're they're not too tight, but they're
8:44
able to kinda swim within there. They're able
8:46
to be in a live, what I'll call
8:48
atmosphere. And then the third final piece is
8:50
syndication.
8:51
And this is literally a big goal, I
8:52
think, of any system or any location that
8:55
wants to scale. We always hear that word
8:57
about scaling,
8:58
growing. And I think the reality is once
9:00
you get to syndication,
9:02
similar to how you watch right now, if
9:04
you wanna watch Seinfeld, it's on Netflix. It's
9:06
syndicated. It's very easy to be able to
9:07
find those and it's just replicated beautifully. So
9:10
when you get to a syndicated lever, guess
9:12
what? You have a very narrow swim lane.
9:14
You've got very clear paths. Everyone knows what's
9:17
going on, and you can also look from
9:19
an understudy point of view.
9:21
The CEO can switch in and out, and
9:22
usually, you won't even notice when you have
9:24
a very successful syndicated,
9:26
organization. So as you think about it, psychiatric
9:29
medical care went through this growth phase, you
9:32
know, over the past since it was founded
9:33
almost twenty five years ago,
9:35
from three locations to over 300 today. So
9:38
what that meant is our organization had to
9:40
go through all three phases. And now we
9:42
even have new divisions,
9:44
self managed facilities, you know, in terms of
9:46
that, and also partners with hospitals. So we
9:48
now have such a broad,
9:49
platform
9:51
that it gives us great diversity, but none
9:52
of that would have happened if we weren't
9:54
very improv in the very beginning. We graduated
9:57
toward a musical focus, and then we needed
9:59
different levels of skill set. Right, Laura? Because
10:01
you you have someone here that comes into
10:03
the musical that doesn't like improv. And if
10:05
you go and hire someone that is really,
10:07
really good at syndicated, as an example, you
10:09
know, we've hired from a very, very large
10:11
health system, academic health system that was so
10:13
used to a certain level of of of
10:15
management and style, hired them and put them
10:17
into a division that was improv. They did
10:19
not do well. They they needed clear direction.
10:22
They wanted that. They didn't wanna just think
10:24
on their own. And, therefore, that was gonna
10:26
cause burnout and a failure of that individual.
10:28
So to get back to your original question
10:30
of how do you manage and build a
10:32
culture, it's all about aligning people,
10:34
that wanna be into one of those three
10:36
phases. So finding an individual that wants to
10:38
be in an improv role, a musical role,
10:40
or a syndicated role, and placing that talent
10:43
in those particular areas that match their skill
10:46
set and what they want to do. And
10:48
then guess what? You're gonna love what you
10:50
do because you're now in the, what I'll
10:52
call, division that you love. Does that make
10:54
sense, Laura?
10:56
Yeah. Absolutely. I love that analogy. I mean,
10:58
being a a musical theater,
11:00
major myself, I I think that it makes
11:02
a lot of sense. We look at organizations
11:04
and how you can function within the teams
11:06
and the expectations of the culture, and and
11:08
really, you know, lean into your strengths there
11:11
and and then understanding how being pushed outside
11:14
of that can lead into to burnout. So
11:16
figuring out where the right people are in
11:18
the right places and how they can really
11:20
function at the highest level makes a lot
11:22
of sense. Real quick, Laura. If you think
11:24
about it from a health care perspective, if
11:25
you think about you've had a hospital that's
11:27
been operating for fifty years and you're at
11:29
Harvard, right, you know, in terms of, you
11:31
know, gen gen mass or, you know, NYU,
11:33
you're gonna have certain areas like primary care
11:36
or cardiology that literally already may be in
11:38
a syndicated function. But then one day you
11:41
decide you wanna open up a geriatric inpatient
11:44
psychiatry unit. Well, guess what? You're now starting
11:46
right back, you know, in terms of improv
11:49
of bringing in this new facility. And it's
11:51
gonna very quickly, obviously, within a large hospital
11:53
and you partner to bring it, it's gonna
11:55
move very quickly within a large system from
11:57
improv to musical to syndicated to be very
11:59
similar to your more established programs. But that
12:02
way, you can always see that these three
12:03
levels
12:04
can match either a brand new organization, a
12:07
new division,
12:08
trying
12:09
AI is a great example right now that
12:11
is living and breathing in improv as you
12:13
can just literally see it.
12:15
And there's no doubt it's gonna move toward
12:17
very quickly musical and then ultimately into syndication.
12:21
Absolutely. A 100%. And, you know, AI is
12:23
on the tip of everybody's tongue today, and
12:25
I can see it moving quickly, between those
12:27
stages. And, you know, looking at the future,
12:29
what else are some of the big priorities
12:31
and headwinds that you're focused on for the
12:32
next year or so?
12:34
When you when you say headwinds, you know,
12:36
I think that the biggest thing I think
12:38
there's one that's that's cultural is is a
12:40
headwind, and then I also think there's headwinds
12:42
around managing the the wonderful world of bureaucracy,
12:45
you know, and trying to figure out what
12:46
direction,
12:48
is the federal and the state government's gonna
12:50
go as it relates to behavioral health. You
12:51
know, as an example,
12:53
just recently, the, there's a 50,000,000,000, as you
12:56
may know, $50,000,000,000
12:57
that it's gonna be going towards supporting rural
12:59
health care.
13:00
So I believe that's a wonderful step, but
13:02
I've also talked to a significant number of
13:05
the step you know, the highest level of
13:07
leaders in health care. And right now, there's
13:09
just a lot of ambiguity
13:10
on how is that money distributed to the
13:12
states, how you know, what type of organization
13:15
will have access to that money?
13:16
What are the qualifiers? And and I think
13:19
that, you know, the biggest thing that I
13:20
go you know, what kind of the thought
13:22
pros process I go through with headwinds is
13:26
how
13:27
can federal legislators how can leaders begin to
13:30
take away the ambiguity,
13:33
and help make things crystal clear on who
13:35
will be receiving what types of funds and
13:37
how to apply?
13:39
I I think that is just would be
13:40
a remarkably
13:41
big benefit to all of health care because
13:43
there's, as we all know, Laura, I mean,
13:45
at Becker's and everyone knows, health care is
13:47
complicated.
13:48
I mean, I don't know if you've noticed
13:50
this, but it is a really difficult industry
13:52
to either come in, and it's also like
13:54
the mafia. You're not gonna necessarily leave.
13:57
So I I look at that and I
13:58
begin to say, hey. You know, as people
14:00
are,
14:01
trying to learn it, I would love it
14:03
if there was just more simplicity
14:05
toward funding and how that manages. Because what
14:07
ends up happening, and I think this is
14:09
more of a macro idea of when you
14:11
ask me what what are future areas.
14:13
Transparently, I wanna be able to help find,
14:16
you know, areas with our leadership team that
14:18
don't require grant funding, that don't need to
14:21
go through that process. Because one thing I've
14:23
noticed is when you get grants from a
14:25
state or you get grants from a federal
14:27
organization,
14:28
they stop at some point. And and I
14:30
think that that concerns a lot of individuals
14:33
because you get a beautiful program established for
14:35
one, two, three years while the grant's alive,
14:37
and you're you're helping so many people and
14:39
you're changing lives. But then once that grant
14:42
stops, boom, the financial stop because it was
14:45
never set up to be what I'll call,
14:47
an a an entity or level of care
14:50
that could survive without a subsidization.
14:52
And I think
14:53
that's the that's the biggest headwind is trying
14:55
to find what are care paths within behavioral
14:58
health that don't necessarily require ongoing grants to
15:03
ensure longevity of care.
15:06
Such an excellent point. And definitely, it's important
15:08
to think about and understand as, you know,
15:11
all of the the different grants are coming
15:12
from the government or or state level organizations
15:15
and Or billionaires or even billionaires. You know?
15:18
Exactly. Exactly. That's gonna come out and give
15:20
the money. I I just wish they would
15:22
find it to be simplified, but then more
15:24
focused on, okay. If I'm gonna give the
15:26
grant, let's find out. Let's give the grant
15:27
to help get the start up cost. Because
15:29
I think, you know, even with an organization,
15:31
and I'm sure you're about to even ask
15:33
a question related to how you get one
15:35
of these types of programs open,
15:37
It's really all about startup cost. So if
15:39
there are grants and funds that can help
15:41
get a program started that then can be
15:44
sustainable long term, that is magnificent.
15:48
And I think that's the biggest level of
15:49
help. Rather than just saying, hey. I just
15:51
need a million dollars every year to fund
15:53
this particular behavioral health program.
15:56
Rather, let's let's get $200,000
15:59
to start this type of program knowing that
16:01
over time, it will be financially self sustainable,
16:04
and investing in those types of care programs
16:07
and then aligning that to make sure it
16:08
can actually happen. And I think
16:10
we've been very fortunate at psychiatric medical care
16:12
to be able to find,
16:14
those type of care models with our intensive
16:17
outpatient psychiatry programs as well as our inpatient
16:20
programs and now even adolescent, which we manage
16:23
ourselves.
16:24
But with those hospital partnerships, we're able to
16:27
find a way to get them started at
16:28
a very low cost and then absolutely become
16:31
self sustaining, which is why we've been able
16:33
to grow, to well over 200 locations just
16:36
in that level of care.
16:38
Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense, and
16:40
it's helpful to see things that way and
16:42
that comes through that light. Now I know
16:44
for the hospitals and systems that you work
16:46
most closely with, there is a lot happening
16:48
right now in behavioral health. And so from
16:50
kind of the bird's eye view and industry
16:52
that you've been in, having been around for
16:54
more than fifty years, what do you think
16:56
is some of the hardest things that you
16:58
have to do in the coming year? What
16:59
do you think is, most important for leaders
17:02
of these hospitals and systems to understand as
17:04
they're heading into 2026?
17:07
You know, I I just feel like it's
17:09
a broken record, and you've probably, you know,
17:11
spoken to a 100 different, you know, leaders
17:13
in health care and, you know, probably another
17:15
100 in behavioral health.
17:18
And the number one that always pops up,
17:18
especially post COVID, is staffing. And and I
17:20
think that
17:22
the biggest element that we experienced in the
17:24
headwinds, when I believe we we spoke,
17:27
before was related to COVID and the amount
17:29
of what I'll call interim staff,
17:32
interim, call it locum tenum, but, you know,
17:34
in terms of having to have travelers that
17:36
we paid a fortune to. I mean, Laura,
17:38
it was highway robbery.
17:40
And, you know, we we had to pay
17:42
that because if you didn't have the care
17:44
professional in that location,
17:46
at your hospital, you know, at our hospitals
17:48
or, you know, at our partner hospitals, you
17:50
know, we weren't able to provide care to
17:52
the community. And it became really,
17:55
just a shocking
17:56
level of amount of money for relocation expense,
17:59
bonus amounts of money. I'm I mean, my
18:01
goodness, Laura. I remember paying people I don't
18:03
even wanna tell you here on the air,
18:04
but paying individuals a fortune to get started,
18:07
and then six months later, they quit, leave,
18:09
ghost us. I mean, who does that? And
18:11
and I think that that was
18:14
something people listening can relate to because most
18:17
likely, they all experienced it as well. And
18:18
and I don't think it was
18:20
indicative of a hospital's culture or psychiatric medical
18:23
cares. It was an indicative toward the environment
18:26
of what was going on and then also
18:28
the the locations of where we provide care.
18:30
Fortunately, over the past five years, that has,
18:33
or I guess, passed, you know, however long
18:34
since COVID ended,
18:36
that has
18:37
dropped significantly. So we are no longer having
18:40
to live in that world of travelers, and
18:41
I think, goodness, that telehealth has expanded as
18:45
as successfully as it has because that allows
18:47
us to provide that level of care and
18:49
not be put into those really difficult situations.
18:52
But we still have locations that require in
18:54
person care.
18:55
But, again, that that cultural that I went
18:57
I think went through health care and everyone
19:00
went through this, and I remember hearing Becker's
19:02
multiple speakers,
19:03
mentioning this during, you know, right after post
19:05
COVID. That seems like it's ended. What's what's
19:08
started to happen more recently is there's just
19:11
fewer,
19:12
numbers of individuals that are here that we're
19:14
trying to find. So retention
19:16
is the number one thing that our organization
19:18
is focused on. And I think that goes
19:20
into setting up, just like I mentioned before,
19:24
ensuring that the team members we bring on
19:27
are able to find which path do they
19:29
like best. Do they want to be a
19:31
part of an improv location? So what I'll
19:33
call musical or syndicated to make sure that
19:35
we can retain that talent,
19:38
so they aren't just coming in and then
19:39
leaving six months later and nine months later.
19:41
And then also on the flip side, we
19:43
as an organization and our partners, we have
19:45
to do a really, really good job of
19:47
finding the right people at the beginning. So
19:49
if it does take, let's say, three extra
19:52
months and let's say if we wanna get
19:53
a program from start to finish opened within
19:56
four months. Right? So we we sign a
19:58
contract with the facility. We are gonna be
20:00
goal to be open within four months. I
20:02
think the biggest partnership of theirs to say,
20:05
okay. We can hit that time.
20:06
But if it takes five months, that extra
20:08
thirty days may help us both to be
20:10
able to find the right talent at the
20:12
right time so that six months after we
20:14
start,
20:15
we aren't failing. And sometimes people call that
20:17
hiring heartbeat, you know, heartbeat higher, so you
20:19
just you gotta fill a slot. And in
20:21
in health care, we sometimes fall into that
20:23
because of licensure requirements, so we do a
20:25
heartbeat higher. Well, guess what, Laura? Every time
20:27
we've done a heartbeat higher,
20:29
maybe one out of 10, we get lucky.
20:31
But nine out of 10 times, that individual
20:33
is not a fit to be on the
20:35
bus,
20:36
either with our hospital or with us. And
20:37
so we do have to go through and
20:39
re recruit, which cost a fortune. And I
20:42
think that everyone knows that if we can
20:44
find the right team at the right place,
20:46
take the time to find the right people,
20:49
because it's better for the organization and it's
20:51
better for the care model, that we're all
20:53
delivering. So I think it's one thing around
20:55
just having great collaborative partnerships with, entities to
20:58
make sure we both go into it with
20:59
that,
21:01
with that vision in place.
21:03
I love it. JR, thank you so much
21:05
for joining us on the podcast today. This
21:06
has been such a fantastic conversation.
21:09
Really learned a lot, and I love all
21:10
the different,
21:11
topics we talked about today in terms of
21:13
staffing and in building a great workforce and
21:15
and the right ways to think about how
21:17
you can continue to build that foundation and
21:19
grow and develop. And, JR, I'm looking forward
21:21
to seeing you as well at our annual
21:23
media. I know you'll be speaking, with us
21:25
in April, so excited to see you in
21:27
person and be able to connect.
21:29
I'm looking forward to it as I always
21:31
do.