Latest / Back In The Closet - Two Crazy Cat Ladies / Does Raw Food Cause Avian Flu In Cats?

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Does Raw Food Cause Avian Flu In Cats? · Back In The Closet - Two Crazy Cat Ladies

0:01
I'm Jay, I'm Adrian, and together we are crazy.
0:04
Ladies. I'm going to cut you I.
0:09
Think I just peed. Buckle up.
0:11
We're back in the closet. Welcome to another episode of
0:18
the Back in the Closet with the 2 Crazy Cat ladies.
0:21
Guys, this is a real like serious 1.
0:22
Like this is just going to be a big one.
0:24
Because. Yeah, we have notes, right?
0:27
So then you know what's really big?
0:29
If we have notes. So we are joined by the
0:33
wonderful, beautiful Sabrina from RAR Cat Food and we're
0:36
talking today about the avian flu specifically and hands on
0:41
1st first hand experience with specifically the FDA and how
0:48
they are handling this whole issue when it comes to cats and
0:53
raw food. Many of you guys know that it
0:56
has been kind of like I thought it had already gone away
0:58
honestly, but it it has been kind of like a, a high high
1:04
it's. It's big in the news cycle.
1:06
Fear mongering, I want to say, I would like to say fear
1:08
mongering, but it's like a it's, it's been something that cat
1:11
parents have been really worried and scared about as far as
1:14
feeding a raw food diet and the avian flu breakout, which has
1:18
been around since like the 90s. But you know, it's been in the
1:21
news a whole lot more. And girl, Sabrina, man, she has
1:26
been covered now in USA TODAY, in the New York Times, in pet
1:30
food industry, of course, ABC, it's everywhere regarding this
1:36
one teeny tiny case. Before we jump into the meat of
1:40
this all puns intended. Very.
1:45
Good joining and and don't know you or your brand.
1:48
Would you just share a little bit about your background and
1:51
and then we'll jump into this year's adventures?
1:55
Absolutely. For those of you that don't know
1:57
me, I'm Sabrina. I'm the owner and founder of
2:00
Roar Cat Food and we manufacture cat food.
2:06
But what makes us different is we are a cat only brand.
2:09
Our focus is on feline nutrition and everything going into our
2:14
food is something I have actually eaten myself.
2:18
So the key for me is just putting something out there that
2:22
makes me feel good about what I'm doing and the choices that
2:27
I'm I'm making for myself, the environment, the animals going
2:30
into the food and the cats eating it.
2:33
Wow, that is very well said. I also want to give a shout out
2:36
to you. You are one of the very few
2:38
brands, let alone a cat specific brand that actually made the
2:42
2025 list this year and I. Think about petfood.com.
2:46
Yes, Susan Thixon. We've had her on our podcast
2:50
before a few times and you guys know her, you love her and we
2:55
all trust her and and her. And it's yeah.
2:59
And it's quite the, if you wouldn't mind this is if you
3:02
wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit about what it takes
3:04
to be on that list. I feel like especially looking
3:07
into the workers that have gone into that have gone into, you
3:10
know, these FDA suggested links between, it's incredible the
3:15
amount of detail that Susan Thixon requires from any brain
3:20
in order to qualify. Yeah.
3:24
And it's not something that you could buy into or.
3:27
Like. Anything like that?
3:29
No, absolutely not. Susan does a very thorough job.
3:33
Very thorough. The first time she sent me the
3:35
information, I was like, I can't look at this right now.
3:38
It is so detailed, you know, and you can't just make claims
3:42
without having backup evidence to kind of show where you're
3:45
sourcing things, how it's manufactured, etcetera.
3:48
So you know, she's definitely someone I go to as well when I'm
3:52
exploring new items for my pets. Exactly.
3:57
I feel like it's is she really is just such a standard.
4:00
The only consumer advocate really out there that has the
4:04
amount of experience he has that is 0.
4:06
Bias. Yeah, and and 0 bias.
4:09
I mean, she is she's been through it.
4:10
The motivations for her doing this are heartbreaking.
4:14
And I feel like what it would it the motivation is, is really
4:20
yeah. And what it honored is.
4:22
Very offensive, yeah, to be on that list.
4:26
OK, so let's let's let's just dive right in because I know a
4:29
lot of a lot of us got parents, you know, even Jay and I who
4:32
kind of understood how avian flu was spread that it's more
4:35
migratory birds, it's getting in all of this kind of stuff.
4:39
You know, we're kind of horrified when we were like, Oh,
4:40
my God, entire flocks, the chickens are being wiped out
4:43
because it's this or that or, you know, it gave us pause for a
4:49
minute there, especially since there were so many voices that
4:54
were just saying, you better be safe than sorry.
4:57
You better. And in truth, big names, big
5:02
names. But in truth, we never stopped
5:04
feeding raw food. I mean, it, it, it there was a
5:07
part of us that the fear of it because it was everywhere all
5:11
the time in our faces. And so many people in our
5:14
community were asking about us, about, about this, what are we
5:17
doing? Well, how are you handling this
5:19
outbreak? It made us really dive into it.
5:23
And diving into it I think is what gave us the the Peace of
5:28
Mind to continue feeding our kinds of species appropriate
5:30
diet. Right.
5:32
And your immune system strong, right?
5:33
Like like what we feed them. You know what you feed equals,
5:36
you know you are what you eat, right?
5:37
Like you like what we feed them equals their level of health.
5:41
And if we decide that it might be a little too scary to feed
5:45
you raw food right now and go to a processed diet instead, and
5:51
we're just weakening their immune systems, which in turn
5:53
actually makes them more susceptible to the avian flu or
5:56
any other virus out there. Absolutely, yeah.
6:00
So let's get started with. Tell us the story we're so
6:03
excited to hear, guys. We haven't heard this yet
6:06
either. So we've.
6:07
Read the articles and him the few of them and things like
6:11
that. But we.
6:12
Yeah, you've been covered in the news, your bit, your company has
6:15
been covered in the news quite a bit.
6:16
And the headlines are are are understandably shocking.
6:21
I think that we all know that the the news.
6:23
The media loves to to get you with the headlines.
6:26
Even tonight I looking it up because we looked it up earlier
6:29
and I think there were like 12 or 15 articles that I found.
6:32
I think there's there's more than 20 out there right now.
6:34
And it's remarkable. If you look at the headlines,
6:36
it's like, Oh my God. And then of course, they in the
6:39
first paragraph. And then if you read the
6:42
articles, you get a better understanding.
6:45
They do. They do.
6:49
Actually come out and say. Right.
6:50
They, they come up with some facts, but yeah, can you, can
6:53
you share for, for us, for your customers, for everyone out
6:57
there that's feeling like what the Hell's going on?
7:00
Can you share with us a first hand experience?
7:02
How did the FDA what? What's the story?
7:05
So we were contacted by the FDA, just a very generic e-mail,
7:11
like, hey, someone reported a cat was sick and your food's in
7:15
their freezer, which, OK, great. And can you give us some
7:20
information about this? So I said, OK, sure.
7:23
You know, I mean, what am I going to do?
7:25
It's the FDA. So I gave them the information
7:27
they needed. They thanked me, and I didn't
7:29
hear from them for weeks. And then they were like, hey,
7:35
will you get on a call with us? And I'm like, well, what exactly
7:39
are we discussing? Like, can you give me some
7:41
details here? No, we'll tell you on the phone.
7:45
So they send me these links for these these phone calls, these
7:49
Zoom meetings with myself and 15 FDA employees.
7:52
And I'm thinking I'm not getting on the phone with you guys.
7:56
Like I don't have any information.
7:58
So this truly went on for about four weeks and then they started
8:02
giving me a little bit of information.
8:04
Well, we believe this cat had the avian flu and you know,
8:09
we've collected a sample of your food.
8:11
And I knew they collected a sample because one of my
8:13
distributors called me, I actually got a barrage of my
8:17
distributor and then stores, the FDA is here and they're trying
8:21
to find your product and this other company's product.
8:24
And they, they told us that that cats are dead.
8:28
And I'm thinking, oh, oh, this is all news to me, right?
8:33
Coming from your stores and coming from your distributor,
8:35
not from the FDA, but that's correct.
8:39
Wow. Yeah.
8:40
And I've asked the FDA for information and they're like,
8:43
let's get on a call, let's get on a call, let's get on a call,
8:45
which is. Which is very interesting and I
8:47
do have a history with the FDA in this industry and the IT is
8:50
very interesting that they would want to put you on a call
8:53
instead of putting anything in writing, right?
8:55
Yes. So I was, as you can imagine,
8:59
freaking out like, is a cat dead?
9:02
Where's the cat dead, you know? And then they had tested
9:08
multiple lot codes of my food that the cat hadn't even eaten.
9:14
So I'm trying to like link it all together.
9:16
They ended up sending me some test results.
9:18
The test results didn't have a lot code on it.
9:21
The whole thing was just like. Shady.
9:24
Yeah, I hope the FDA is not watching because I don't know.
9:28
You are like a cat. No, I think this.
9:32
Is you didn't say it, I said it. I want to say this if the FDA is
9:35
watching or one of their friends, I I want to say that
9:38
this is this is an encouragement to to really.
9:41
To just do better. Because scaring us and then
9:44
having nothing to back it up with is not helping us truck
9:47
trust the Food and Drug Administration and, and we need
9:51
that. We need to know when we are
9:52
unsafe and, and this kind of stuff is really disturbing you.
9:56
You have all this information you won't share.
10:00
Continue. I'm sorry.
10:01
No, that's exactly, that's exactly it, right?
10:04
They're telling me there's a public health issue, but they're
10:08
not disclosing any information. So I finally wrote them this
10:12
very long letter, which I am considering putting out there
10:16
just because I do want other raw pet food companies to understand
10:19
like kind of how I moved through this because at the end it ended
10:23
up being pretty OK. So I wrote them this very long
10:28
letter, you know, essentially saying, look, I, I am not, I am
10:32
happy to work with you, but I do not feel comfortable getting on
10:35
a call with no information. You're telling me this is a
10:38
public health issue. And I feel like if you want to
10:41
move through this quickly, I need to understand what we're
10:44
dealing with. Like what food did you test?
10:47
Where did you get it? How was it handled?
10:50
Where's my sample? Right and how could you even
10:54
like issue a a recall or or like if if there were something wrong
10:59
with your food then how could you even help other cats not you
11:05
consume it if they won't even tell you what?
11:07
Absolutely. So that's an important piece
11:09
because I did have a few people that got really upset that I
11:12
didn't do a recall immediately. But what I did do is when the
11:15
FDA contacted us, I contacted our distributors with the lot
11:19
code I knew was in existence, put that on hold.
11:23
And at that point that lock code had about 2300 bags and there
11:30
were only 200 left, which meant that the rest of that had been
11:35
purchased, eaten and we have one potentially sick cat.
11:42
But I don't know the details, right?
11:44
So, you know, honestly, you do the best you can with what
11:49
you've got, but to start screaming from a rooftop, you
11:52
know, let's recall all these foods.
11:56
It just, it didn't, you know, I, it's a fine balance of like
12:01
what, you know, I know my manufacturing process.
12:04
So I understand what goes into it.
12:06
I know the meats that go into it.
12:08
I mean that the poultry, poultry we're using is, I mean, it's GAP
12:12
certified chickens coming from a, you know, NPIP farm.
12:17
So everything they're following all the safety precautions for
12:21
the birds. Right NPIP farm.
12:24
Is. National Poultry Improvement
12:26
Project and so they're required to test a certain number of
12:30
birds from each group that goes, yes, thank you flock.
12:38
It feels like a Monday, but it's not each flock before they are
12:43
harvested essentially so and they have to hold them.
12:46
So they quarantine them, they give them a blood test, they
12:49
make sure that they are negative because the thing with the avian
12:52
flu is you can, you know, and at the very beginning I was doing
12:56
some testing, but really the only, there's only two surefire
13:00
tests for avian flu and neither of them are available to right
13:05
manufacturers. Per the FDA, even though the FDA
13:08
did say that now raw food, as soon as this started blowing up,
13:12
the avian flu blew up, they said the raw food manufacturers had
13:15
to start taking protocol to for AAH 1.
13:22
H5 N one, yeah. And you know the the protocol
13:25
that they have in place is very simple.
13:28
It's make sure you're using USDA approved meat and make sure you
13:33
have in your safety plan what you will do if you find out that
13:37
there's avian flu in product that you have.
13:40
And you do. That is it right?
13:42
So I'm following their their guidelines.
13:45
I'm completely lost and I sent them that e-mail and just said,
13:50
you know, I'm happy to work with you.
13:52
I need to know what's going on. They said file a FOIA request.
13:57
And what is a FOIA request? Can you tell?
14:00
The Freedom of Information Act. So in order to get information
14:04
about my own brand, product and this cat, I had to file a
14:09
request explaining what I wanted and why I wanted it and I still
14:14
haven't gotten it and. No.
14:15
And you. And and you very.
14:18
When did you request that? August.
14:20
Yeah, and, and you very likely won't.
14:23
In fact, we looked it up today because, because the the Freedom
14:28
of Information act like Susan Thixon has been doing this for a
14:30
long time, doing this for a long time.
14:33
We have watched like you, you like hound and hound and hound
14:37
and hound and ask and ask and ask and ask and ask and ask.
14:39
And maybe in a year and a half to two years will you get an
14:42
answer which does no good in this case whatsoever.
14:45
The image is. Done.
14:46
But yeah, the the like if there was any damage to be done, the
14:50
damage would be way done by the time they got back to you.
14:53
But we looked up today and. The National Security Agency
14:57
didn't audit A FOIA request and found that there are there are
14:59
many requests that are outstanding past 25 years,
15:03
right? So.
15:06
A medal or an award put on their wall.
15:09
And I know that, you know, Susan Dixon has mentioned many times
15:12
that, you know, it, it depends on.
15:16
I'm sure she's still waiting for some.
15:17
Oh. She is.
15:19
Find what I find interesting is that you know, they, they, they
15:22
basically let the public know that there's a public health
15:26
emergency going on. They do not let you know what it
15:29
is. You would think that if that was
15:31
the case, if there really was something, it would be lot
15:34
number this test it from this freezer definitely consumed by
15:36
the cat. Boom, pull it.
15:39
See, and they have done that in the past like I have, like I
15:42
have, we have seen other cases where it's like Listeria or E
15:46
coli or something like that, where we have, where they have
15:50
provided the information or given.
15:52
But when it comes to the OR and ask for the information and, you
15:55
know, gone, gone through the, we need to recall and we need to
15:57
recall right now, especially when there's multiple, you know,
16:00
complaints going on. But in these, in this case and
16:04
avian flu specifically, and them not being able to trace it
16:09
because clearly we, we, we, I, I feel like we all know that they
16:13
just weren't able to actually detect it because didn't the the
16:16
actual test, the first Test result come back?
16:18
Negative. Yeah.
16:21
And then and then they tested it at a different lab and it was
16:24
positive. And this is the same food?
16:28
How long later? I don't know if it's the same
16:30
food because they actually and, and I have to give them credit
16:33
for this because they rarely do it.
16:34
They did send us our our samples and one had our like copies of
16:42
our original packaging with it and the other one is just in a
16:46
bag all wrapped up. You can't see what's in there.
16:50
I haven't actually opened it and tested it because when I finally
16:55
did talk to them after everything exploded, I was like,
17:01
I'd like to send this to my lab and they said you can go for it,
17:04
but if it's negative, it doesn't matter to us.
17:06
We have what we need so. You continue going because I
17:12
need. To.
17:13
I feel like we're cutting you off now, like.
17:16
So so you. Did so.
17:17
I sent them this long winded e-mail.
17:19
They told me to submit a FOIA request.
17:21
I did, and then they emailed me back a couple days later and
17:29
essentially, I think it was maybe a Friday.
17:31
They love to do things on Fridays.
17:34
They were like, we posted this about you, thank you.
17:38
And it was a link to their public warning, which covered
17:44
things that I didn't even know about.
17:45
So of course, then everything exploded.
17:47
People were calling freaking out and you're going to love this.
17:51
So I think NBC interviewed me and when I talked to them, you
17:56
know, they, they said, when did they first contact you?
17:59
And I said, oh, it was, it was right before Super Zoo said, oh,
18:02
it was the very end of July was the very first contact.
18:05
And they said, oh, they they called us on July 17th, which
18:12
was four days after this cat was euthanized.
18:15
It the cat didn't die. This is important.
18:17
The cat didn't die. The cat was euthanized.
18:20
So I don't know anything about the cat except that it did at
18:24
some point eat my food. So it I'm thinking, OK, wait,
18:30
you called NBC News? But you won't tell me.
18:35
Before, but you didn't even contact me for another.
18:38
That's the 17th. I don't know, two weeks?
18:41
Wow, it was. It was.
18:43
It was. It was.
18:46
Wow and. Messy and hard to navigate
18:49
because as you can imagine, the majority of recalls that
18:53
happened with the FDA, especially with raw food, they
18:55
happen very quickly because we as manufacturers, you know, we,
19:01
we have a lot of integrity. We don't want to put something
19:04
out there that's going to cause illness.
19:06
So even if we've tested the FDA, they just really get on you.
19:10
You need to do a recall. This is an emergency.
19:14
Your food is responsible for XYZ.
19:17
But we won't. Tell you exactly what, but it's
19:19
bad but. They didn't recall your food.
19:23
They did not issue a recall. No, they didn't.
19:27
They issued a warning. Right.
19:31
And they in in their language, which I I think Susan Thixon
19:34
points out beautifully because she's dealt with this so many
19:36
times in that warning, they say suggests a link between meaning
19:42
there is if you know, if they had proof you would and we've
19:45
seen this before when there is something that they can
19:48
definitively link, they say lot numbers AB and C sold between
19:52
whatever you know, they are issuing a recall on this and or
19:57
encouraging the. Telling the.
19:58
Manufacturer to do this. So it was remarkable to me, I
20:03
did not know this about NBC. Were they at all as a news
20:06
agency? Were they at all?
20:09
Open minded. Well, no.
20:10
Were they at all, you know, kind of curious about the fact that
20:14
the FDA would reach out to the media before they reached out to
20:18
the manufacturer? She didn't seem surprised.
20:20
She was like, huh, OK, she was pretty cool.
20:25
She, you know, we talked for a while.
20:26
She, she really was interested in what I was doing.
20:29
But of course, the 20 seconds yet on TV is just the best 20
20:35
seconds, right? So they issued that.
20:38
And I thought, oh, shit, OK. And I tried to mop it up,
20:42
explain to people like we did not issue a recall.
20:45
We don't know what's happening, you know, And so I emailed them
20:51
again and I said, are you going to force me to do a recall?
20:55
And they said no. But we really think you should
20:59
because you, we've already taken so many steps.
21:02
It's like you've almost done one anyways.
21:06
Because you put a stop on your wallet was in circulation.
21:11
Yeah, yeah. So it, the whole thing was just
21:16
very sneaky. And then they get, they send you
21:18
all this paperwork and she's like, just fill it out.
21:21
It, you know, it doesn't need to be, it doesn't need to be a
21:25
recall. We just need to formalize what
21:28
we're doing. And I got to like halfway down
21:31
the first page and it's like, I am doing a recall because this
21:34
is what's wrong with my food. And I'm thinking I'm not filling
21:37
this out. So we went back and forth for a
21:41
while and then I at this point, you know, I had talked to our
21:46
poultry company, I had lot codes of every single item that went
21:51
into our food. And you know, we do test
21:54
everything for listeria, E coli, salmonella.
21:57
So everything gets tested before it goes out.
22:01
But at a certain point the lab was like, there's no point in
22:04
testing for avian flu. PCR testing is not accurate.
22:08
It will not tell you if there's an active virus in your food.
22:13
So if it's not active, it's it, you can't actually, it won't
22:17
make anything sick, but it will show up positive.
22:20
We, we saw this with COVID right when they didn't quite have it
22:23
figured out. And you know, PCR testing is
22:26
kind of delicate too, because if you, if there's too many spins
22:29
and I don't know exactly how this all works, it will show up
22:32
positive even if it's not there. So, yeah, so.
22:39
I thought. I thought it was interesting.
22:41
I just want to put this in there because in our research that we
22:43
were doing, I really did a deep dive into chicken farmers
22:47
because to me it was devastating that millions of birds being
22:52
killed. Euthanized.
22:54
Euthanized in horrible ways, in horrible ways, like just the
22:58
humanity of it was sickening. And so really doing a deep dive
23:04
into some of these more ethical farmers, it was basically saying
23:08
exactly what you were talking about when you're doing testing
23:11
and when it comes to the ABM flu HA5H5M1 that it is important if
23:17
if for the flock to be build immunity like they're and that
23:24
it does no one any good to do this mass killing of birds.
23:29
So just the the logic of it. And there's so much more that
23:32
goes into it, but it was like, are these regulatory agencies
23:36
that are calling for this massive destruction and, and,
23:40
and putting, you know. Animals.
23:43
Like so much. Innocent animals that are not
23:46
actually. I mean, and I know that we.
23:49
Killing them. Right.
23:50
It how is how, how is this logic and this common sense and the
23:54
history of it not making it to those decision makers.
23:58
I just found unbelievable in this modern age of information
24:05
that basic information was being was basically being kicked to
24:10
the sideline in in lieu of headlines.
24:15
Lots of headlines. Absolutely, yeah.
24:17
So the fear it, it just keeps growing, right.
24:21
Because it and it is, it's it, you know, the flocks that have
24:26
been, I don't know if you want to say euthanized or what, what
24:29
word you want to use. Killed, I guess is more like it,
24:34
you know, yes, there are flocks that get sick where you have a
24:38
number of animals that there's obviously something wrong if the
24:43
majority of them. These tests are found on
24:47
healthy, active birds. And so clearly, yeah, it's in
24:53
their system, but we don't know how it's if they're spreading it
24:58
and if they are but or. Is it even in their system with
25:04
these PCR tests right like? The PCR, they don't, so the
25:09
blood test that they do is more accurate.
25:13
So there's a blood test that they give the chickens.
25:18
But what I'm saying is you can walk around with the flu and be
25:23
OK, or you can have some sniffles.
25:26
Maybe you have some sniffles and you're OK, you know, or maybe
25:30
you just got over it and it's still showing up, right.
25:34
So, yeah, so we went back and forth for a while and I finally
25:39
got on the phone with them. But one, one person at a time,
25:43
you know, and I said, you know, I still haven't gotten my FOIA
25:46
requests. I'm so uncomfortable.
25:47
And he was like, well, you know, the reason that we want you on
25:51
the phone is because we don't really have all of this
25:54
documented well. So it's not like we, we would
25:58
actually have to make you reports to send them to you.
26:02
We all just have our own notes. And that's why we all want to be
26:05
on a call with you so we can share everything we've got.
26:08
And I'm thinking is this a government agency or what?
26:12
What is going are you guys don't have it?
26:14
Actually sounds exactly like a government.
26:16
I don't have like there's not a file on a computer that people
26:19
are putting. You don't have a shared Google
26:21
Drive. I mean, so I, you know, I'm
26:26
talking to them. I'm talking to every advisor.
26:29
I have other raw food companies trying to see what they've done
26:32
previously, how they handled stuff.
26:35
And then, you know, my lab is so great.
26:38
The virologist, there's a virologist that owns the lab and
26:42
I called him and I said, you know what, what do you think?
26:46
And he said, you know what I think?
26:48
I think you should tell them you'll do a recall if you can
26:51
give them the lot codes for every item that went into your
26:55
food and they force a recall across the board.
26:59
Anyone that had one of those items in their product needs to
27:03
recall it. And I thought, yeah, you're
27:07
right. If my food's killing animals and
27:11
it's in other people's food, we better reel this in.
27:14
So I sent them a new e-mail, also quite long, and they wrote
27:21
me back and they said thank you for your e-mail and I haven't
27:25
heard from them again. That was that.
27:29
Yeah. So it was a very, you know, at
27:32
first I'm sitting there thinking, thanks for your e-mail
27:34
or thank you for your reply. Whatever they said, it was like
27:38
I'm watching my watch, you know, like when are they going to do
27:41
something? And when was that?
27:43
When was that last e-mail? I think it it was in September.
27:47
I'm not sure what day in September, but yeah.
27:52
So I. You're going pretty hard in the
27:54
paint and the news cycles in September.
27:57
That was really impressive. I've I and I really thought it
28:03
was, it was heartbreaking to me. I mean, we've, we've known
28:05
companies that have completely folded under the fear of and
28:10
the, the, the constant. Yeah, It's fear of basically the
28:14
FDA not having anything specific, but saying you better
28:17
shut it down, you better sit down because I think, I think
28:21
they, I think there is a part of this that is, I don't know, I
28:27
don't know exactly what to say. I believe there's so many raw
28:31
food manufacturers out there that the integrity of their
28:34
product is everything to them. They know that our pets are
28:39
dying, that they are susceptible to massive epidemics because of
28:45
overly processed foods. And they want to give us, the
28:49
consumer, an option to feed our pets the way they were intended,
28:53
something that species appropriate.
28:55
And the integrity of that product means everything because
28:57
it's what you would eat yourself, as you said, and it's
29:00
what you would feed your pets. And I know that that's really
29:04
starting to, especially in the dog food industry, really
29:08
starting to eat into. The margins of the kibble
29:12
companies. So I wonder about that and I
29:14
wonder how much of it they do kind of just count on a small
29:21
business like yourself just folding under that the weight of
29:25
it. I mean what you've been through
29:26
in the last 3-4 months is is a lot to handle in the dailiness
29:31
of continuing. What do you think is the what do
29:38
you think is like from like a 30,000 foot perspective, right
29:42
like or 10,000 foot perspective like looking at it like general
29:50
like if you were right, like what do you think?
29:54
And this is just complete opinion, right?
29:56
Complete opinion. But what do you think is the
29:59
underlying reason that a federal, a government agency
30:07
that's regulating food and drugs would pinpoint and bully, if you
30:16
will, or try to try to badger breast food companies and fresh
30:25
food in general? It's a very leading question
30:28
here. No, but I mean like what?
30:29
Like what would be their motivation behind bullying small
30:37
businesses or fresh food companies while they, you know,
30:42
while they still, you know, if you watch television at all, you
30:45
see, you know, all the FDA approved drugs out there that
30:48
can cause instant death and, and an erection lasting 4 hours and
30:53
you know, like, or four days or something like that.
30:56
You know, like all these, all these like crazy side effects
31:02
and, and they're they're all approved, FDA approved.
31:04
So like, what do you think is that correlation?
31:07
Like why? Why would they even hone?
31:08
And why would they even waste their time honing in on a small
31:10
business that is feeding, you know, that's that's offering
31:13
fresh. Well, that has been transparent
31:15
with them about their sourcing and all their all their
31:19
documentation. I mean, I, I think it's, it's
31:22
always money. It's always money.
31:25
Yeah, and where's the bit? Where's the money come from?
31:28
Right. And what?
31:29
Yeah. Where does the money come from?
31:31
And where? Where?
31:32
Where? Lobbyists.
31:34
That's the question. Yeah, well, I mean, actually
31:36
it's supposed to be exempt from lobbyists, but.
31:43
I, I think what's interesting with the avian flu and I hope,
31:47
you know, my other manufacturers don't mind me pointing this out,
31:52
but I feel like they started kind of, you know, if you look
31:56
at how it started, it was NW naturals, wild Coast, raw Savage
32:01
cat, me. NW naturals is bigger than us
32:06
other three, but we are, we're small ones.
32:10
So I don't know if their hope is let's start with the small ones
32:14
and just knock them out one at a time.
32:17
And, you know, it's very difficult because as a
32:21
manufacturer, like, I want to fight for all the manufacturers.
32:25
I know, I know when they're doing recalls, every time I see
32:28
a recall, I'm like, I wonder what really happened here
32:33
Because I know a lot of those companies are testing, they're
32:38
getting negatives. But then the FDA comes along and
32:41
somehow the FDA is perfect. Like, they can find that needle
32:44
in the haystack. Oh actually no.
32:47
Here's your drop of bacteria and now you are ruining everyone's
32:51
life so. I, I find it, I want to give a
32:55
shout out to you because I think this is such a sensitive topic.
32:58
It's still in the news cycles. It's something that is scary.
33:02
I mean, for Jay and I to take a beat about feeding our cats raw
33:06
food, raw chicken, raw it it, that's how big in the new cycle
33:12
it is. So we understand that fear
33:13
factor and I think the countless hours of research that we did
33:18
ourselves into the sourcing of the food, what's actually going
33:21
on? What is the documentation?
33:23
What's the percentage of cats that have actually been
33:26
affected? I feel I just want to give a
33:28
shout out to you for for having the walls to actually come out
33:33
here walk. US.
33:35
Walk us as as consumers through the transparency of what it is
33:39
to be one of those companies that has gone through this
33:42
because I think that's the biggest thing in every single
33:45
one of the 19 articles I read about you, there is.
33:48
First of all, I don't think I saw a single quote from you.
33:50
It was just your maybe one or two, but nothing that comes to
33:56
mind right now. No quotes from you, just your
33:59
company mentioned and nothing conclusive.
34:02
There was never anything conclusive.
34:04
They did mention that the FDA did not issue a recall that it
34:08
was suggested that there was a link that it was all of this
34:12
terrible. The the damage that I can't
34:15
imagine is potentially could have done to your brand or has
34:18
done to your brand while all the while knowing you the
34:24
transparency that you have put in to communicating with.
34:27
Your customers with other. Manufacturers being open about
34:31
it, I think that's another thing that they may not have counted
34:34
on is that when you do know your sourcing so well, when you are
34:39
so deeply embedded in your own manufacturing practices, when
34:43
you eat the food you sell, there is a point of view that says,
34:48
wait, I'm not going to just. Exactly.
34:51
Yeah. And and you know, what's really
34:53
scary though, is that despite all of that, and and I think
34:56
this is any this can happen to anyone is when this all started,
35:01
of course, I was like, Oh my God, did I do something wrong?
35:05
Did I did I do some? Did I kill a cat?
35:08
But as things started to unravel, like once you calm down
35:11
and you're like, Nope, let's let's ground ourselves and just
35:14
like move through this one step at a time.
35:17
It was like, no, this is not, you know, and this is the other
35:21
piece that I think is really important for raw feeders is,
35:25
you know, I did go on Reddit, which was not a good idea
35:29
either. Don't go on Reddit unless you
35:32
want to hear really bad things about yourself.
35:36
But there were people that were like, This is why I don't buy
35:38
raw food and I just make it myself.
35:40
And all I could think is with the sourcing I'm using if
35:45
because could there be avian flu in the chickens we're all
35:52
eating? Absolutely.
35:53
But that's the thing. If it's in my food, it's it's
35:57
everywhere, honestly. So you going to your local
36:01
grocery store and making your own raw food to try to make sure
36:05
that your cat's not eating something a manufacturer made.
36:09
I don't think people understand the lengths that we go through
36:11
to ensure how clean. And I don't know, clean's not
36:16
the best word, but we follow so many protocols to ensure that
36:19
that you know it. It keeps its integrity.
36:23
I use that word a lot so well. You're using, you're like
36:27
you're, you're, you're using the same human grade foods that I
36:34
could pick up at my local market as well.
36:37
So literally they like they could be feeding the exact same
36:41
chicken, right, because you're using the, the, the facility
36:45
right, is the same. They, they, they don't just make
36:49
your food alone. They make human the food that we
36:54
pick up at the market. Other manufacturers which is why
36:56
your virologist so very like smartly said if they want to
37:03
recall then it needs to be done on every every manufacturer that
37:06
is batched from these same. Right, exactly.
37:10
Is where the transparency comes in, because that would be when
37:14
you go to the source. That would be a thing.
37:16
Also, you know, in all of these news articles that I read, I
37:20
find it fascinating that with all this fear that they're
37:23
putting out there, my sweet girl, yes, With all this fear
37:26
that they're putting out there, no article once mentioned that
37:30
if you cook, if you gently cook the food to 165°, it kills any
37:35
virus that's in there. Not once was there anything And
37:38
and they I think they don't mention that because most humans
37:43
cook their chicken, right. So we could be eating the avian
37:46
food every day from this very you do what I mean make.
37:52
Your shirt that says that I eat avian flu every day.
37:56
Every day I want to, I want to point out a couple comments
37:58
because I love our community so much.
38:00
Fobby cats, Jennifer said, I bless you for your transparency,
38:03
but also for enduring this. That's a lot of responsibility
38:07
to deal with. And I know that your heart, I
38:10
love that you said once you calm down, because I know that you
38:12
know that whole, that personal part of like, Oh my God, that's
38:17
heavy. And I, I love you for having the
38:19
stamina go through this. And Judith said they don't want
38:22
to put it in writing that you don't have proof that.
38:25
So you don't have proof in print of how they are mishandling
38:28
everything. Otherwise it is just.
38:30
Well, and they admitted that, right?
38:32
Like that's, that's crazy that, that, that the FDA admitted that
38:35
they did not have any correct like reports or documentation
38:40
that they want to get on a call with you because all they have
38:43
are notes on their, you know, on their desks.
38:46
And they would. All get together and kind of
38:48
like bring it together so that maybe they could talk about it
38:50
some or to get to whatever whatever conclusion that they
38:54
wanted to come to. But but honestly, like you were
38:58
such a baller. Seriously.
39:01
It's funny too, because that conversation was one of the ones
39:05
I didn't. I was recording my conversations
39:07
with them. I would tell them I'm going to
39:09
record this conversation. And the difference between the
39:12
conversation that's recorded and the ones that aren't is it's
39:15
night and day. It's really, you know, because I
39:19
told him, you know, if you think there's actually avian flu in my
39:22
food, it is everywhere. And that and, and this is a USDA
39:27
issue then. And he was like, well, I don't
39:30
work for the USDA. I work for the FDA.
39:32
And I was like, well, I'd love to speak to the USDA.
39:34
And he's like, I'm not giving you their numbers.
39:37
And I thought, oh, OK, it's fair.
39:40
Don't give me their numbers. But it was just, it's, you know,
39:43
they, they've bounced that ball back and forth.
39:46
Well, it's a USDA issue. That's an FDA issue.
39:49
What would you mean? You've been through this at a
39:51
really, you know, we're coming from it coming, looking at the
39:55
situation as a consumer, as as cat parents that want to give
40:00
our cats the best nutrition possible.
40:03
Your company does a really good job of giving us that
40:06
opportunity for the consumer, having gone through this at such
40:09
a heightened, in such a heightened way as a manufacturer
40:13
and as a consumer. What advice can you give to us
40:18
consumers? Cat Parents.
40:20
Yeah, to to help us navigate this kind of any, this news
40:25
cycle or any news cycle that's that's kind of like this.
40:28
Are there certain go TOS for you?
40:29
Like, I don't know. How do we, how do we get past
40:34
our own fear and just go straight to information more
40:38
succinctly in a way that we know we can trust?
40:40
Oh my goodness. That is a loaded question,
40:44
because finding information you can trust I mean.
40:48
Hard. It is very hard, you know, and
40:51
I, I was reaching out to so, so many people, you know, I had the
40:55
virologist and I had the, the quality control people at the
40:59
poultry farm and the people who are actually dealing with the
41:02
USDA at the poultry farm and the USDA and the FDA.
41:05
And it was just like this myriad of, you know, God, gosh, that's
41:13
a really hard question. You know, for me as, as a cat
41:16
parent, when this first started, I, I did think it was scary as
41:20
well. You know, I knew my sourcing.
41:23
I had to weigh the risks. I have some dogs.
41:31
I, you know, I know, I think knowing where the food's coming
41:35
from, like trusting the, the source that it's coming from,
41:39
but also keeping your cat's immune system up is such a big
41:42
deal. And the best way, like you said,
41:45
is feeding, I think feeding a raw diet and feeding a variety
41:49
of things. And, you know, adding goat milk,
41:52
you can add, I mean, you can add tinctures, you know, to help
41:58
boost their immune system. But I think the thing that the
42:01
public doesn't really understand, well, I'm not going
42:04
to say the public doesn't understand, but that the news
42:06
kind of steers away from is this is a flu, OK?
42:10
So it is going to be passed most easily from a live animal to
42:18
another live animal, right? Right.
42:21
So, and I don't think pet parents really understand how
42:25
easily it has passed. I mean, you step in contaminated
42:30
poop and bring it into your home and your cat is sniffing around.
42:36
That is much easier for that to transmit than it would be for,
42:42
you know, this chicken that has already been butchered, cleaned,
42:47
right, Because they clean these birds, they go through a whole
42:51
system to ensure that they're clean.
42:53
Then we're adding stuff to get rid of bacteria, etcetera,
42:56
etcetera. I mean, and then it's going into
43:00
a stomach that is highly acidic. So is it impossible?
43:05
I can't say that it's impossible for for it to be transmitted
43:09
from, you know, meat to an animal because they have done
43:13
studies, but I don't think that's honestly the easiest way
43:19
for a cat to. To right, I have to say that we
43:22
like, that was our biggest fear when it, when it first came out.
43:25
It wasn't the food that we were feeding.
43:27
It was the fact that we go walking around our lakes every
43:29
day and we have ducks and geese and you know, and we're always
43:36
hodging the, the, the birds. Step in the ground everywhere is
43:40
there? Is it on our.
43:42
I honestly felt, I honestly felt confident in feeding the foods
43:46
because I knew that if and God forbid, if one of our cats were
43:51
to get sick, it would be from us walking around the lake and not.
43:56
Yeah. And.
43:57
And that then comes the question, do we shut it down?
44:00
Do we stop walking? Do we?
44:03
You know what I mean? Like is this a level of fear or
44:07
do we? Take our shoes off when we walk
44:08
into the house instead. Right.
44:10
Take your shoes off, wash your hands.
44:12
Yeah. Be thoughtful about what?
44:14
What You're you? Know what you're doing.
44:16
Interesting for us to even walk through those steps of fear, but
44:20
to have some logic to understand how this is transmitted.
44:23
In fact, one of the chicken farmers that I watched, he said
44:26
I test my birds all the time and if one of them gets the avian
44:29
flu, my flock will be quarantined and I want that flu
44:32
running through all of them. Absolutely, yeah.
44:36
And, and you know, that's kind of where we're at with cats too,
44:39
if you look at the USDA map of animals that have have tested
44:44
positive for avian flu. Oh, and mind you, this is
44:47
important. When they did test the cat,
44:50
which was euthanized and, and they didn't keep the body, they
44:55
didn't do a necropsy to actually see if it was avian flu.
44:59
They used APCR test which is not what I meant to use because it's
45:04
not conclusive, but they used APCR test on my food and APCR
45:07
test on the cat. So the whole thing was messy.
45:12
But where am I going with this PCR testing?
45:18
Migratory birds stepping. Well, I, I think something it's
45:21
also interesting is that there were a couple of articles not of
45:25
your situation, but early on in the bird flu where it was very
45:30
important that these cats be there.
45:32
They were indoor only. And so number of those.
45:35
And I thought that's so unfortunate that they're not
45:38
pointing out that this is more easily transmitted for cats who
45:41
are indoor outdoor who have actual access to.
45:48
With NW Naturals, right? Like it was like the, that was
45:52
the first, that was the big one. And it was like this cat is
45:55
indoor, outdoor. And so there's no way to see if
46:00
this actually came from the food with the cat ate or the birds
46:04
that it was being exposed to. Right.
46:06
So that's what I was going to say.
46:08
On the USDA, there's a USDA map that you can pull up and it'll
46:11
show you all of the cases of bird flu on every species, not
46:15
just cats. But if you look at it, there are
46:19
there's not a lot of cats, but the only ones that the FDA seems
46:23
interested in are the ones that are raw fed.
46:27
All the other cats, What were they eating?
46:30
What were they doing? Because, you know, Susan Thixon
46:33
was one to point out. Well, the final step on a lot of
46:37
kibbles is, you know, some rendered fat on top.
46:41
And that's not cooked in a way that it's going to kill a virus.
46:45
So it's, it's, it's just very, very, you know, curious and, and
46:51
interesting and, you know, these cases where there have been
46:54
multiple cats in one household getting sick.
46:57
Well, it's not because they all ate the same food.
47:00
Probably someone got sick. It's because it's.
47:03
The food and everyone else got sick.
47:05
So for me it really is just weighing, weighing things out.
47:08
You know, I have a cat and she's indoor outdoor and I have ducks
47:11
and I have chickens. So, you know, and there's geese,
47:15
there's Turkey, there's all sorts of, there's a bear,
47:19
there's all sorts of animals and so.
47:23
There's a. Bear.
47:24
Yeah, there's a bear in the neighborhood right now, which is
47:26
a little. Every time I let her out, I know
47:32
there's a risk, there's a risk for a million things.
47:36
But for me, I just have to weigh out her quality of life.
47:39
And I'm not suggesting everyone let their cat run around
47:42
outside. I'm just saying it's the same
47:45
with with food, you know, I mean, I got into this business
47:48
because I had a very sick cat and and he was on very high end
47:53
kibble and then very high end canned and it and it didn't
47:56
matter. But once he was on raw food, it
47:58
was like I knew immediately how bad he had been feeling, you
48:02
know, and it's like, I know when I eat garbage because it's
48:06
delicious, but I don't feel good afterwards.
48:10
And if I did it on day in, day out, it would ruin my life.
48:15
So for, for me, you know, yes, the avian flu is here.
48:19
It's here to stay. I think if you have a cat that's
48:21
immune suppressed, you know, be thoughtful, Yeah, maybe you put
48:25
it on a lightly cooked and you just do raw food that is not
48:29
poultry. But for me, I, you know, she's
48:34
going to keep on eating raw food and hopefully, you know, maybe
48:39
these cats will also start to gain some immunity with this
48:42
flu. Because my understanding from
48:45
vets that I've talked to is that it, most of them do recover.
48:49
So, and I don't know, you know, when I think about, that's the
48:53
other piece that's really upsetting.
48:54
I don't know who this person is. So there's someone who is buying
48:57
my food whose cat became sick. I don't know how much she knew
49:03
or didn't know because usually it's the vet that reports to the
49:06
FDA, but there came a point where they had to decide what to
49:11
do with that cat. And I don't know why it was
49:14
euthanized. Was it really old?
49:16
Did it have other conditions? Could she not afford it?
49:19
I don't, or he, I, I don't know. And that's, I think honestly the
49:24
hardest part. Is there someone out there who,
49:26
who really struggled? And I hope you know that they
49:30
know, you know, I, I wasn't like, oh, well, it's just a
49:33
little cat like that's absolutely not the case.
49:37
So. But the fact that most of them
49:40
do recover is really I think. It's really important for us to
49:45
know. I think it helps like you.
49:47
Say telling to to cat parents. That we don't need to.
49:50
Be as scared as as the media is trying to make us or the FDA is
49:54
trying to make the media to make us right like whatever but they
49:58
called NBC before they. I love this.
50:01
He's here. Someone had asked earlier for a
50:02
link to your site and a link to Susan Thixon.
50:05
Yeah, like it's in the description this he's also
50:07
dropping him here in the comments, so.
50:10
I just want to say thank you. I feel like, you know, our whole
50:13
community, we've been recipient of lots and lots of questions.
50:16
We can only tell people our personal decisions and why I
50:20
think that it's incredibly valuable to have a manufacturer
50:23
brave enough to come and publicly speak.
50:27
You know, you said earlier, I hope the FDA isn't watching.
50:29
I feel like that's a pretty powerful sentiment to say.
50:32
Like I love that you have the balls to actually come and.
50:38
Bulls. Bulls to come and be transparent
50:43
with all of. Us and share publicly yeah speak
50:45
publicly and and and let people know yeah what what the real
50:50
story is right and so so people can make decisions for
50:54
themselves when they have the truth.
50:56
So thank you for representing the truth thank you for for for
50:59
representing the cats and thank you for staying so strong and
51:03
being such a baller through this process.
51:06
Like like Adrian said, we have we have seen companies just just
51:10
buckle when when the FDA comes at the door and they're just
51:14
like, OK, we're done. We're we're closing shop it
51:16
anymore and and they just don't you know, have the walls.
51:20
They're not well, it's really it's really, really it's really
51:23
hard. It's a struggle.
51:25
I mean, it's overwhelming. And especially I can't imagine
51:28
if I had gotten on a call, you know, that early on what what
51:33
could have happened? So I think, you know, it's it's
51:37
hard. It's it's hard to stay strong,
51:39
But I really hope that the public can like look at these
51:42
and kind of be thoughtful, right?
51:46
Just like, OK, what is everything?
51:48
Because it is, it is news and news is like they they just want
51:54
to, you know. News is not like I'll throw this
51:58
out there that that that news is not true.
52:00
They are, they are owned by the entertainment industry, just so
52:03
you know, and so it they are, we want to.
52:07
Believe that there's some reputable news we.
52:09
Would like to believe. That I think.
52:11
There's some important things they're they're putting out
52:14
there. There's really important things.
52:15
And I'm not saying that you know, but again, they're not
52:19
there to to take what the FDA says and analyze it and then
52:23
give us what they're thought. They're just kind of pushing it
52:27
out, right? My suggestion would be if you're
52:30
going to, if you're going to be scared by a headline, read the
52:32
whole article and and literally understand that that headline
52:37
is, is in, in the 19 plus articles that I read about you.
52:41
It is, yeah. It was a lot of click bait.
52:45
It was unbelievable that that that was the most sensational
52:50
thing they had to say. It was not repeated in the story
52:53
itself. It absolutely said that the FDA
52:56
did not issue a recall. It absolutely did say that you
52:59
were cooperating, that there was a suggested link.
53:02
There was nothing definitive. So my suggestion to the general
53:05
public is don't ever just read the headlines.
53:08
Those are to get clicks. That's that's how it it does
53:11
work now, but do your due diligence.
53:14
Take the extra 515 minutes to really put your brain in check.
53:20
Don't just let it run. With, and if you, if you do get
53:23
scared, because we have with other pet food manufacturers in
53:26
the past, right? We have been worried about like
53:31
did something change this? You know, there's a recall,
53:33
there's like things going on and don't be scared to contact your
53:36
manufacturer. Don't when you scared, call
53:40
them. I don't care if it's Purina.
53:41
Well, they might put you in touch with the market.
53:43
Media department Media. Department like they did us when
53:46
we had some questions about their food but but it but then
53:50
they're that's telling and it's in itself right like don't be
53:54
scared to contact your manufacturer find like get to
53:57
know your source right like. Actually, and we're working for
54:01
you guys. I mean, you're making a product
54:03
for you. So your feedback, at least for
54:06
me, feedback's always welcome it.
54:09
It's, you know, you want to know and there's nothing if, if
54:12
people are hiding things, then they're not the right fit, you
54:15
know, find someone else. There's enough, there's enough
54:19
raw food out there. There's enough of everything.
54:21
I mean, it's saturated now, so. Now, it's now like 10 years ago
54:27
it was not, but now. Yeah.
54:29
Yeah, absolutely. Again, we just want to commend
54:32
you for having the confidence and the wherewithal, the
54:35
pragmatism, the rationale, the balls, the balls, the courage to
54:41
go through this. And I think for all of us as
54:43
consumers, be clear when you are making, when we are making a
54:47
decision based on fear, you know, had we and, and if that is
54:51
the case, then what? Do a little dig down into what
54:54
we're actually scared of and then do our own due diligence,
54:57
contact manufacturers, decide if we're going to walk around the
55:00
lake or not anymore. You know what I mean?
55:02
Like are we? That's exactly it.
55:05
You have to make a conscious decision yourself.
55:08
You weigh it out because it's your cat, it's your life.
55:11
It's every decision. Making arbitrary decisions never
55:15
turns out good. Or making a decision based on
55:17
what someone else tells you. We all know that.
55:20
We all know where that goes. So I think, yeah, that's really
55:23
the key, You know, do some research, be pragmatic, look at
55:27
numbers, because I will tell you the number of cats that have had
55:31
the bird flus. It's it's low, really quite low.
55:36
And and I hope it stays that way, you know, but this this
55:40
other piece is that this isn't just going to disappear.
55:42
It's going to ebb and flow, but it's going to be here.
55:46
It's probably back now. I mean, we know it is.
55:48
It's going to be here next year on and on.
55:51
It's the the world's changed so. Judith with the last quote of
55:55
the night. I love you so much, she said.
55:57
Ballsy cat parents eat avian flu.
56:01
In the T-shirt. There we go.
56:02
Oh my. Goodness.
56:04
Thank you so much. Do you think?
56:06
Anything of you? Guys, is anything that we
56:09
missed? Yeah, I.
56:11
Don't think there's anything you missed.
56:13
You know, I think it's just yeah, it's it's.
56:17
More cat parents should know, yeah.
56:20
I want to put it up. Maybe you should share those
56:22
emails. I I think that could be
56:24
empowering. Yeah, tag us.
56:26
Yeah, let's collab on it. I'd.
56:28
Love to manufacture. I think that's the other thing.
56:30
I think that there's this, you know, I get that there's
56:33
competitors out there all the time, but in this industry and
56:36
maybe only the cat community, I think that there is such power
56:39
and collaboration and cooperation over competition.
56:43
There is this the spirit of doing something with integrity
56:47
to better our community. I think that's really empowering
56:50
and I I really again had tipped to you for, for everything that
56:55
you went through. Yeah, absolutely.
56:57
And, you know, there were manufacturers I spoke with and
57:00
were really, there's just been so many people that were there
57:03
to like kind of hold me up and boost me and don't do it, don't
57:06
do a, you know, and it's like, oh, I don't know, But I, I
57:10
absolutely agree. Because you don't want to be the
57:13
one raw food company out there. That's not a good thing.
57:18
Maybe maybe some people think it is, but you want, you want a lot
57:22
of people in the same boat as you.
57:24
And I think with the FDA, you know, my hope is that if we all
57:29
kind of stand our ground, we don't need to be Dicks.
57:32
We just need to be like, I don't have the info, let's be on the
57:36
same page. If we can all have that same
57:39
behavior, maybe they will change the way that they work with us,
57:43
you know, and then those recalls will actually, because this is
57:46
my other worry. At some point there is going to
57:48
be a recall that is bad and people aren't going to know the
57:52
difference At this point. Recalls have been normalized
57:55
almost. And that's.
57:58
It's it's the boiled, fried bowl, Yeah.
58:01
And it and it could it could have devastating effects.
58:03
So thank you for saying that I. Really feel.
58:06
Like, yeah, especially from one of the best companies out there.
58:10
You don't want to be the only brand making food.
58:12
We want variety. We want this.
58:15
That's great. I mean, I want I truly, I want
58:19
every cat on raw food. I do.
58:21
I don't care what raw food it is, but let's, you know, let's
58:25
get them on the right, on the right.
58:27
I, I can't even, yeah, I can't even go to the vet's office now
58:29
because when they're talking to people about what to feed them,
58:32
I'm like. No, it's so hard.
58:35
It's hard for us to, yeah. But we're moving the needle
58:38
little bits by little bits and what you've done, what you've
58:40
been through and what you've shared with us tonight gives it
58:44
a, a, a big, a big pick in the right direction.
58:48
So thank you. Yeah.
58:50
Thank you for having me. I I yeah, these chats are great
58:53
so. Yes.
58:54
So we're doing you the best you guys.
58:56
You are all the best as well. We will see you guys very soon.
59:00
Thank you so much for joining us tonight, and we love you all
59:03
not.