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Understanding Complex Trauma with Kate Mikhailouskaya · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist podcast. My name is Gan macpherson.
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Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
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Speaker 1: those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
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Speaker 1: So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
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Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Very excited to happen. My guest today,
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Speaker 1: Kate Mikhiluskaya.
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Speaker 2: Kate welcome, Thank you guy. I'm so excited to be
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Speaker 2: here with you and have a conversation about whatever comes
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Speaker 2: up in our talk.
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Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, appreciate it so. Kate is an existential psychoanalytic
0:38
Speaker 1: psychotherapist based in Sydney who specializes in childhood and complex trauma.
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Speaker 1: She works with both adults and children, helping them understand
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Speaker 1: and heal from the lasting effects of single or ongoing
0:49
Speaker 1: traumatic experiences. With the background and existential psychodynamic and trauma
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Speaker 1: informed therapy, Kate takes a compassionate, holistic approach that supports
0:58
Speaker 1: clients and managing such as PTSD, association and emotional regulation.
1:05
Speaker 1: She also has extensive experience working with survivors of torture
1:08
Speaker 1: and extreme trauma. Kate, Welcome to the podcast. Before we
1:12
Speaker 1: get going, Kate share with the listeners where you're from
1:16
Speaker 1: originally and where you are currently.
1:18
Speaker 2: Well, I'm originally from Belarus. That's a country that's neighboring
1:22
Speaker 2: to Ukraine. Everybody knows Ukraine these days due to the
1:26
Speaker 2: unfortunate events of war, So Belarus is a little country
1:31
Speaker 2: that's just next to Ukraine and Poland. And I've been
1:36
Speaker 2: around the world. I've left home early, at around seventeen,
1:40
Speaker 2: I left my home, went to university, traveled in China
1:45
Speaker 2: and lived in Hong Kong for a while because I've
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Speaker 2: in my previous life, I've been an interpreter and translator
1:52
Speaker 2: in Chinese and Russian languages, so that's why i traveled,
1:57
Speaker 2: and I did a lot of interpreting work. And then
2:01
Speaker 2: I landed in Australia and somehow retrained to become a
2:08
Speaker 2: therapist because I accidentally landed in a place where as
2:17
Speaker 2: a volunteer in the crisis support center and I loved
2:21
Speaker 2: the work, and from there I decided to go to
2:24
Speaker 2: another university and study as a therapist. So now I
2:30
Speaker 2: am in Sydney and it's six a m. Guy here,
2:33
Speaker 2: and I woke up at five a m. With my
2:35
Speaker 2: coffee to be here on the podcast.
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Speaker 1: Well, I very much appreciate that, and we value your
2:42
Speaker 1: commitment to coming on this podcast truth truly. But go Kate,
2:46
Speaker 1: go back to that that that volunteer experience. First of all,
2:50
Speaker 1: your background is wow, very.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've lived a rich life. I've lived a rich life.
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Speaker 2: I'm very grateful for that. So many amazing opportunities. Yeah,
3:01
Speaker 2: but to go back, yeah, yeah, what I'm saying that
3:08
Speaker 2: that experience on the phones, being a volunteer in the
3:11
Speaker 2: crisis center and seeing how much it helps just to
3:17
Speaker 2: have someone on the phone and listen and that's all
3:20
Speaker 2: that people need to call at the time of crisis
3:25
Speaker 2: or at the time.
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Speaker 1: Where Why did you do that? How did it happen?
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Speaker 2: There is also a little prehistory to that, because when
3:31
Speaker 2: I was an interpreter in Hong Kong, I somehow landed
3:37
Speaker 2: a part time job at an addiction recovery center that
3:41
Speaker 2: was ran by an American gentleman who lived on the
3:45
Speaker 2: boat in Hong Kong, and he created a detox and
3:49
Speaker 2: recovery center for people who struggle with addiction on the
3:53
Speaker 2: boat in Hong Kong. In Aberdeen, it was sort of
3:57
Speaker 2: moor to there and I became an interpreter because he
4:03
Speaker 2: was importing a Russian product from Russia, the product that
4:08
Speaker 2: you sort of put in your body and then your
4:11
Speaker 2: body reacts to alcohol in a certain ways. So he
4:15
Speaker 2: needed shipment understanding how that product worked. He worked with
4:22
Speaker 2: Russian specialists. So as a part time person, I sort
4:26
Speaker 2: of landed there to help out with these translations. And
4:30
Speaker 2: as I listened to clinicians speak about patients and the
4:35
Speaker 2: doctor being invested in their recovery and what else they did,
4:39
Speaker 2: group therapy, casework, all of that, that planted the first
4:44
Speaker 2: seeds of thinking about that amazing profession of a counselor
4:50
Speaker 2: or a therapist or a caseworker or a group therapist,
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Speaker 2: somebody in the helping role that can be around or
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Speaker 2: travel along side the people who are struggling. So that
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Speaker 2: somehow has planted the seeds of potentially me being curious
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Speaker 2: about the role of a helping profession in our field,
5:15
Speaker 2: I suppose, like social work and therapy.
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Speaker 1: It's very interesting to hear you say a couple of times,
5:24
Speaker 1: I just landed in this job of this addiction. I
5:28
Speaker 1: just landed in this job. But all right, so how
5:32
Speaker 1: did you land in that volunteer position in the crisis center?
5:38
Speaker 1: How does that happen.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well I heard about it. I heard about it
5:43
Speaker 2: from a friend or a quaintance somehow. When I ended
5:49
Speaker 2: up landed in Sydney, and I started another translation and
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Speaker 2: interpreting job, which was also about China products and working
6:01
Speaker 2: with Chinese language and a bit of Russian language and
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Speaker 2: English language. I heard about Lifeline. We have crisis line
6:10
Speaker 2: which is called Lifeline, And I heard about Lifeline meeting
6:15
Speaker 2: volunteers and constantly recruiting volunteers. And somebody has told me
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Speaker 2: about this, and I had the office Lifeline office not
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Speaker 2: far from where we lived. So there was a volunteers
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Speaker 2: open night and I went and joined and I listened to,
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Speaker 2: you know, to what they spoke about the organization values,
6:40
Speaker 2: how they trained volunteers that got attracted by the courts,
6:43
Speaker 2: how you do little role plays, and what you do
6:47
Speaker 2: in emergency if somebody is really, you know, progressing to
6:52
Speaker 2: a suicide or thinking about suicide. And I felt the
6:56
Speaker 2: urge to be there, and actually the urge to step
7:02
Speaker 2: in to this world where all these volunteers are on
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Speaker 2: the phone and ready to answer, just needing someone to
7:11
Speaker 2: call and reach out and we're just there. And I
7:16
Speaker 2: just felt this shivers down my spine thinking, oh gosh,
7:21
Speaker 2: I'm going to join and I'm going to volunteer. So
7:23
Speaker 2: from there I joined a few weeks. Course it wasn't
7:27
Speaker 2: that long. We did role place and a bit of
7:32
Speaker 2: you know learning in terms of you know, what to
7:36
Speaker 2: do in a crisis and how to connect people, refer
7:39
Speaker 2: them for supports, look up what they have in the area,
7:43
Speaker 2: discuss some options with them, and just yes. And then
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Speaker 2: I joined and I started taking some shifts. They're usually
7:51
Speaker 2: for hour shifts and then sort of you can do
7:54
Speaker 2: it at least once a week or a couple of
7:56
Speaker 2: times a week, and it's just as long as the
7:58
Speaker 2: call center is always oct with people and there's always
8:02
Speaker 2: somebody to answer the phones.
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Speaker 1: That's a that's a pretty heavy duty job. I mean,
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Speaker 1: to do that and to listen to uh, you know,
8:15
Speaker 1: the difficult times, the challenging times, trauma that people is
8:18
Speaker 1: going through. I mean, it takes a certain person to
8:22
Speaker 1: be able to do that. And it also takes something else,
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Speaker 1: which is like just being able to listen and not
8:33
Speaker 1: needing or feeling the need to jump in there and
8:38
Speaker 1: try to fix someone that that that is another skill too.
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Speaker 1: But what was that? What did what was that like
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Speaker 1: for you? How was that when you were there listening
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Speaker 1: to these people calling what.
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Speaker 2: Were well, you definitely have the urge to fix things,
8:57
Speaker 2: and you definitely start feeling for the person and you
9:02
Speaker 2: have that response, oh my god, what do I do?
9:05
Speaker 2: And you sort of learn to suppress it because yes,
9:08
Speaker 2: part of our course and part of our training and supervision,
9:12
Speaker 2: you have supervisor on site that can hold your hand
9:16
Speaker 2: and you can put a call on supervisor being on
9:20
Speaker 2: the other line to sort of connect with you and
9:23
Speaker 2: they sometimes we would write some notes to each other,
9:27
Speaker 2: you know what to say, what not to say, so
9:30
Speaker 2: you know you have somebody to help. Until you learn
9:35
Speaker 2: how do you suppress that urge and you really focus
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Speaker 2: on listening ear you focus on being there for somebody.
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Speaker 2: So that's a learned skill. So it took some time
9:45
Speaker 2: for me to learn that. And still as a human,
9:49
Speaker 2: you still have that natural desire to fix things and
9:56
Speaker 2: learning that you're not there to fix things, but you
10:00
Speaker 2: prioritize being with somebody and that involves, you know, ensuring
10:07
Speaker 2: that they don't feel so alone, and that's your priority.
10:13
Speaker 2: It's a relief, it's a relief, but at the same
10:16
Speaker 2: time it's a hard thing to do. It's still a
10:19
Speaker 2: difficult thing to do because even to this day, you know,
10:24
Speaker 2: I've been counseling people close to twenty years now, if
10:27
Speaker 2: we really date back to the time in crisis center,
10:34
Speaker 2: that urge to fix things still comes up. And the
10:37
Speaker 2: more hopeless the situation is, the more you want to
10:42
Speaker 2: even if you don't, even if you don't offer things
10:47
Speaker 2: to fix you, or even if you don't sort of
10:50
Speaker 2: offer solutions, you might have the urge to be overly optimistic.
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Speaker 2: You might have the urge to say, can you.
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Speaker 1: Give us an example of what a call might have soundedlike?
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Speaker 2: Oh, it might be a distressing mother calling about a
11:07
Speaker 2: mother in distress, calling about something happening for her daughter
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Speaker 2: and being upset about a conflict and saying she's alone
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Speaker 2: because her daughter cut her off and she doesn't have anybody,
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Speaker 2: she doesn't have contact with grandkids, and therefore she doesn't
11:29
Speaker 2: feel there is any meaning to her life for things
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Speaker 2: like that. So being able to understand how hard that
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Speaker 2: is and being curious about her life and what it's
11:44
Speaker 2: almost like entering that empty house with her the house
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Speaker 2: she's being alone in and calling from to kind of
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Speaker 2: sit there in that sorrow or sit there like next
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Speaker 2: to her. It's just you just sort of that. That's
12:02
Speaker 2: probably the first first aid, if you like. And then
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Speaker 2: and then as the person starts talking and opening up
12:13
Speaker 2: more and more, they often find solutions themselves. They might say,
12:19
Speaker 2: will you know, I've got my neighbor here, or I
12:24
Speaker 2: can always reach out to my sister, or perhaps I'm
12:27
Speaker 2: going to give my daughter some space, and then when
12:31
Speaker 2: the Christmas rolls around, I'm gonna reach out to her husband.
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Speaker 2: So there would be you know, once that that's sorrow
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Speaker 2: and that all consuming crisis in the stressful moment passes,
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Speaker 2: then the person is more regulated and more sort of
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Speaker 2: calm and open to look around themselves and say, well,
12:57
Speaker 2: actually I've got options.
13:01
Speaker 1: So how do things unfold for you? After that?
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Speaker 2: After that, I entered the university to study counseling psychotherapy
13:10
Speaker 2: and started my degree and did a lot of practice
13:16
Speaker 2: because our degree had a practical component, and they sent
13:20
Speaker 2: me off as an intern to work with the refugees
13:24
Speaker 2: and torture and trauma survivors asylum seekers. That was work
13:32
Speaker 2: mostly with interpreters because there would be people coming from
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Speaker 2: Iraq and Syria predominantly, so I needed Arabic speaking interpreter
13:40
Speaker 2: with me when I was seeing a client, which actually
13:45
Speaker 2: was a bit of a godsend because it allowed me
13:48
Speaker 2: time to think. So when the client speaks and then
13:52
Speaker 2: you have an interpreter interpret, you got time as a
13:56
Speaker 2: new student, as a newbie, when you're sitting there thinking like,
13:59
Speaker 2: oh my god, this person has been through some horrific events.
14:03
Speaker 2: They are complaining of nightmares, they're talking about you know, dissociation.
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Speaker 2: They are so depressed and suffering every day. What do
14:17
Speaker 2: I say here? So you're completely thrown into this, you
14:21
Speaker 2: know very I suppose sad and distressing environment, and you
14:27
Speaker 2: don't know what to say as a new student. So
14:29
Speaker 2: the buffer of an interpreter allowed me time to learn too,
14:37
Speaker 2: you know, don't rush again. I had to really learn
14:39
Speaker 2: don't rush to fix and there wasn't anything I could
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Speaker 2: fix or don't rush with your that's gonna be okay
14:46
Speaker 2: statements because it's ridiculous, you know, say something that wouldn't
14:53
Speaker 2: make this person think like you are patronizing them, or
14:58
Speaker 2: you are being you know, ridiculous, or you know, like
15:02
Speaker 2: it's meaningless to come and talk to you. So that
15:07
Speaker 2: taught me a lot in itself. And this is where
15:12
Speaker 2: I first noticed that if we speak about instead of
15:21
Speaker 2: talking about recent traumatic events in this person's life, because
15:24
Speaker 2: that wouldn't lead anywhere. They would come in and talk
15:28
Speaker 2: about their not knowing where sisters or brothers are because
15:32
Speaker 2: they may still be kidnapped or taken away, or they
15:36
Speaker 2: would be still coming in talking about their families back
15:39
Speaker 2: home that are still in the war to own country
15:42
Speaker 2: and they have nowhere to go. Or they would come
15:45
Speaker 2: in and talk about their own symptoms that are overwhelming
15:49
Speaker 2: and not improving. So what do you talk about in
15:55
Speaker 2: your therapy session? And paradoxically, it's not about the recent
16:02
Speaker 2: events that we needed to talk about, That's what I've learned,
16:07
Speaker 2: but about something from the distant past. Some clients accidentally
16:13
Speaker 2: started talking about their childhood or telling me about their families.
16:17
Speaker 2: So they might talk about things what happened when they
16:21
Speaker 2: were five year olds or ten year olds, how they
16:24
Speaker 2: went to school, which cousins they played with, house or
16:30
Speaker 2: pets they had in their childhood, and how things were.
16:34
Speaker 2: Maybe they were reminiscent of the old Syria before war.
16:38
Speaker 2: Obviously they missed their country and you know there was
16:42
Speaker 2: certain grief there. Yeah, probably we're just wanting to reconnect
16:49
Speaker 2: with things that existed before things fell apart.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, let me just interject for one second here. So
16:56
Speaker 1: these were clients who coming from a war torn country.
17:01
Speaker 1: They were seeking therapy.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I, as a student, I got placed again accidentally,
17:11
Speaker 2: I landed. Guy, You are so correct that I landed
17:14
Speaker 2: in these places without really planning for it, Like, there
17:19
Speaker 2: was not much contemplation. It was out of my hands
17:22
Speaker 2: because my university sent me on a placement in my
17:26
Speaker 2: last year of counseling degree to start, and which is
17:33
Speaker 2: stands for Service for Treatment and Rehabilitation of Torture and
17:38
Speaker 2: Trauma Survivors. And going in there, I thought, oh my god, seriously, seriously,
17:46
Speaker 2: that sounds full on. And that's why I was so
17:51
Speaker 2: glad to have an interpreter there. As a trembling, shaking,
17:56
Speaker 2: hands shaking student, I was very glad that I had
18:01
Speaker 2: an interpret but I had excellent supervisors, and the learning
18:05
Speaker 2: that happened within that year in as an intern in
18:10
Speaker 2: that treatment center was amazing.
18:14
Speaker 1: It's what did you What are some of the things
18:16
Speaker 1: you learned from that? But but just also just to
18:19
Speaker 1: sit with with someone who's come from a situation like that,
18:26
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't imagine. Yeah, you know what. And
18:29
Speaker 1: I thought it was very interesting that you said, you know,
18:35
Speaker 1: we're not trying to address the recent traumas or the
18:40
Speaker 1: recent experiences that's going on. We're maybe more safely and
18:47
Speaker 1: helpfully in a sense, talking about the past. That's where
18:50
Speaker 1: they kind of tended to go. But I guess two
18:54
Speaker 1: things here, Kate, How how did you deal with that
18:57
Speaker 1: for yourself? That's a lot.
19:01
Speaker 2: Well, I was in therapy at that time and that
19:04
Speaker 2: helped immensely. So as I started that year, I went
19:08
Speaker 2: to therapy. That was helpful, The supervision was helpful, and
19:15
Speaker 2: my lecturers at university, which show were immntally helpful as
19:20
Speaker 2: well me going into that environment. One of them said,
19:26
Speaker 2: you know, see them as people. They're just people, you know.
19:29
Speaker 2: They are not this you know, survivor that's crawling out
19:36
Speaker 2: the strench is covered in blood and even that might
19:40
Speaker 2: have been real for some and certainly they've seen a
19:43
Speaker 2: lot of horrific things, but this is the person and
19:47
Speaker 2: you got to meet them. And then I sort of
19:49
Speaker 2: calmed myself from there, well, this is a person, his
19:53
Speaker 2: or her name is so and so. And then as
19:57
Speaker 2: you start your assessment you're talking about perhaps you know
20:01
Speaker 2: basic things like where do you live with home and
20:04
Speaker 2: your children, or you know, what do you do? Then
20:08
Speaker 2: you do? Then we did symptoms assessment, which were would
20:12
Speaker 2: be psychometric tests, and we did Harvard Trauma Questionnaire and
20:17
Speaker 2: Hopkins Symptoms Checklist. We would check where they are on
20:21
Speaker 2: those sort of scores, and as you did those tests,
20:25
Speaker 2: they would start telling you some of these events that
20:28
Speaker 2: happened to them. So you sort of just maintain your
20:32
Speaker 2: calm composure and you hold your emotions because you need
20:36
Speaker 2: to show that you are you can do, You can
20:38
Speaker 2: hold this, you can handle.
20:40
Speaker 1: Now were you? How was that for you?
20:43
Speaker 2: Oh, you're asking me to date back so many years
20:46
Speaker 2: and remember, well it was it was overwhelming, and it
20:50
Speaker 2: was It was also okay because I think I've I've
20:58
Speaker 2: heard a lot as an interpreter as well, so I
21:02
Speaker 2: wasn't completely new to hearing things and having a bit
21:05
Speaker 2: of a you know, I wouldn't say poker face, but
21:09
Speaker 2: I demonstrated understanding and calm presence and sort of listening
21:16
Speaker 2: and nodding and just being engaged in a conversation. So
21:20
Speaker 2: that wasn't new. So I think those skills of being
21:24
Speaker 2: an interpreter in different situations helped, but certainly the stories
21:32
Speaker 2: stayed with me. There was a lot on my mind,
21:37
Speaker 2: and debriefing with colleagues and then sort of having supervisors.
21:43
Speaker 2: There were a lot of people that supported me. But
21:45
Speaker 2: I wouldn't I wouldn't say it was easy. It was
21:48
Speaker 2: definitely a learning curve and and emotional sort of big
21:59
Speaker 2: ball of feelings that was landing on me again and again.
22:04
Speaker 2: And also an eye opener because we don't know even
22:10
Speaker 2: as people. You know, I'm from Eastern Europe and then
22:14
Speaker 2: I landed in Australia and I was previously in Hong Kong.
22:19
Speaker 2: As people from these countries that haven't seen war, it's
22:25
Speaker 2: we're oblivious to these things that go on in Syria
22:29
Speaker 2: or Iraq. So it was also interesting because I wanted
22:37
Speaker 2: to hear more about their life. They would be like
22:42
Speaker 2: telling me that they often go out and have a coffee.
22:48
Speaker 2: You know, you just go out to the street and
22:49
Speaker 2: you have a coffee. There's always coffee tables with people
22:52
Speaker 2: sitting outside. And this is the life in Iraq. You know,
22:57
Speaker 2: people communities just downstairs in the street having these endless
23:03
Speaker 2: conversations and everybody knows everybody so you learn a lot
23:07
Speaker 2: about countries and people beyond the war, you know, or
23:13
Speaker 2: like people in Syria that visit relatives and then they
23:17
Speaker 2: visit people from work, and they sort of spend a
23:19
Speaker 2: lot of time in each other's houses. And there's these
23:23
Speaker 2: big three stories houses, those that aren't destroyed by war.
23:27
Speaker 2: There are big three story houses, and multi generational families
23:32
Speaker 2: live sharing the floors and sort of the top floor
23:38
Speaker 2: for grandparents, and then you go your aunties and uncle
23:41
Speaker 2: and then you have kids and kitchen downstairs. It was
23:46
Speaker 2: also interesting to learn a lot just about the lives
23:51
Speaker 2: and the culture and the every day of these people.
23:58
Speaker 2: And maybe that's what got us think talking about childhood.
24:01
Speaker 2: That's what got us talking about something else, and maybe
24:06
Speaker 2: that's what got these people to look beyond trauma rather
24:11
Speaker 2: than being all consumed. You know, you've got this crushing
24:14
Speaker 2: PTSD and can't you can't do anything else.
24:18
Speaker 1: Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Kate Mikhaliskaya. Kate,
24:23
Speaker 1: so let's jump up here to present day. You know,
24:27
Speaker 1: in your bio it says your existential psychoanalytic psychotherapist. Talk
24:34
Speaker 1: a little bit about what that means for you and
24:40
Speaker 1: what you're doing now currently, who you're working with, how
24:42
Speaker 1: you're working, et cetera.
24:44
Speaker 2: I work in private practice, and I've been in private
24:48
Speaker 2: practice since twenty nineteen. I've started seeing clients privately over
24:55
Speaker 2: fifteen years ago, but as a little bit of a
24:57
Speaker 2: part time, you know, Saturday here and there. And then
25:02
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, I've got so many clients there's sort
25:04
Speaker 2: of the number ballooned to the point where I had
25:07
Speaker 2: to make a differicult decision leaving starts. Just to backtrack
25:12
Speaker 2: a little, I stayed and started. I started working as
25:15
Speaker 2: a student, and then I got employed in this treatment
25:18
Speaker 2: center with refugees and asylum seekers, and then I stayed
25:23
Speaker 2: on for seven years, and then in twenty nineteen, I
25:28
Speaker 2: eventually decided that it's time to leave the workforce and
25:33
Speaker 2: stay as a private practitioner because you know, my practice
25:37
Speaker 2: demanded a little bit more time of me. And I
25:43
Speaker 2: wrote on my website as a description of what I do,
25:48
Speaker 2: existential and psychoanalytic, because I'm sort of blending this too
25:55
Speaker 2: components in a way that they complement each other existentially,
25:59
Speaker 2: because we focus a lot in our sessions with my
26:04
Speaker 2: client on human needs and human wants and human desires
26:14
Speaker 2: and what human get or humans get or don't get
26:17
Speaker 2: from life, and how that really sort of shakes us,
26:21
Speaker 2: and what we need to restore things or what we
26:26
Speaker 2: need to make meaning and lead a meaningful life. So
26:29
Speaker 2: a lot of that comes from existential sort of us,
26:33
Speaker 2: the selves, which we can't escape or change. You know,
26:38
Speaker 2: for example, there is no point in, for example, isolating
26:45
Speaker 2: yourself and saying I'm going to cut off everyone and
26:48
Speaker 2: live happily because I can't deal with people. Let's say
26:51
Speaker 2: a borderline patient says that, or people with complex trauma
26:55
Speaker 2: who learn to be afraid of making connections. And that's
27:00
Speaker 2: where I would come in and say, well, tough chance,
27:02
Speaker 2: because that's not we can't live like that as humans.
27:06
Speaker 2: We need others, We need meaningful relationships, and that's based
27:09
Speaker 2: on existential sort of thinking that we need as humans
27:15
Speaker 2: those components in our lives. And then psychoanalytic is that
27:22
Speaker 2: component is necessary to have the freedom of expression in
27:27
Speaker 2: the session. So by that, I mean we don't necessarily
27:32
Speaker 2: follow a treatment produccol or we don't necessarily follow a
27:36
Speaker 2: goal or a focus in a session where we return
27:41
Speaker 2: to and over again to something that's in our goals
27:46
Speaker 2: You can bring anything to your session. You can bring
27:49
Speaker 2: a recent dream that you just had, or you might
27:52
Speaker 2: randomly speak about something that pops up in your mind.
27:56
Speaker 2: It might be a song, it might be a memory,
27:59
Speaker 2: it might be something sort of. Psychoanalytic thinking is guided
28:03
Speaker 2: by non randomness of whatever comes up in the therapeutic field.
28:11
Speaker 2: Psychoanalyst Pharaoh talked about the therapeutic field is that sort
28:15
Speaker 2: of air, the space that exists in a consulting space
28:19
Speaker 2: between the therapist and the client, and what comes up
28:22
Speaker 2: in the field randomly arises is not accidental. So what
28:26
Speaker 2: seemingly looks like a client might say, why am I
28:29
Speaker 2: thinking about this? Or I don't know why I'm bringing
28:32
Speaker 2: it up sort of, and they want to stay on topic,
28:35
Speaker 2: and this is where I remind them, Look, it's not random.
28:39
Speaker 2: The reason this comes up in your mind right now
28:42
Speaker 2: might have something to do with our meaning making and
28:46
Speaker 2: we will will so I encourage them to blurt things
28:49
Speaker 2: out so that then we together will find the meaning
28:53
Speaker 2: like sort of don't worry about being logical, And especially
28:56
Speaker 2: when you work with childhood trauma and childhood memories, often
29:00
Speaker 2: it's illogical or pre verbal, or it's not really organized
29:07
Speaker 2: in in in the sentence or having full sentence. You
29:11
Speaker 2: might even have not have a full sentence. You might
29:13
Speaker 2: have a word or a sound that comes up and
29:17
Speaker 2: sort of I suppose psychoanalytic therapy allows you or gives
29:24
Speaker 2: a person, encourages person to let it out rather than
29:29
Speaker 2: seek to organize it before you let it out.
29:33
Speaker 1: Hmm. I love that, And my part of me wants
29:38
Speaker 1: to say that type of working with a client isn't
29:43
Speaker 1: for the faint of heart, because you you've got to
29:47
Speaker 1: have a lot of faith and trust in yourself as
29:50
Speaker 1: a clinician, but also in the process right in appreciation
29:55
Speaker 1: for that. That's really exciting to me. But as we
30:00
Speaker 1: kind of wind down here, you have a book coming out.
30:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't wait.
30:05
Speaker 1: For me coming out in twenty twenty six. As we
30:10
Speaker 1: record this, it's not out, but it is forthcoming. Do
30:14
Speaker 1: you have a title.
30:15
Speaker 2: Yes, it's called Utilizing Childhood Memories and Natural Avoidance in
30:21
Speaker 2: Trauma Work.
30:23
Speaker 1: Okay, And what do you want to say in the
30:28
Speaker 1: book and who's it for?
30:30
Speaker 2: It's for everyone who struggled with trauma and attempted or
30:34
Speaker 2: wanting to try trauma work. It's just one of the
30:37
Speaker 2: approaches that I would recommend because it's worked for me,
30:41
Speaker 2: and I'm just out there sharing with a bunch of
30:43
Speaker 2: clinicians how we could enter trauma or we could support
30:50
Speaker 2: clients through exploring their childhoods. But what we should also
30:56
Speaker 2: be mindful of that our natural human avoidance will come
31:01
Speaker 2: up and sort of stick sticks into our wheels of therapy.
31:07
Speaker 2: And that's normal, that's expected, and I want clinicians to
31:12
Speaker 2: learn how to navigate the avoidance that comes up.
31:17
Speaker 1: You know, you've had, as you've said, rich background and
31:23
Speaker 1: rich experiences, and as you've been talking about your different experiences,
31:28
Speaker 1: I get this feeling from talking to you that's very inspiring.
31:33
Speaker 1: I mean, you bring with your with the work you
31:36
Speaker 1: do a lot of experience. What do you feel key
31:43
Speaker 1: you're bringing to the work you do?
31:44
Speaker 2: Now, I think I'm just bringing me myself, you know.
31:50
Speaker 2: I think you're right. I've got some rich experiences and
31:55
Speaker 2: I've got a steady presence and confidence in the process,
32:00
Speaker 2: so confidence in what we offer as clinicians, what trauma
32:05
Speaker 2: therapy can offer. And I think I'm bringing all of
32:10
Speaker 2: that to people who perhaps need reassurance or path forward
32:17
Speaker 2: or just somebody to be with them. And that's okay,
32:21
Speaker 2: And I think I'm bringing that to the room to
32:25
Speaker 2: consulting space.
32:27
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I Also I also feel there's kind of
32:32
Speaker 1: like a no Bs.
32:34
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, you're picking up on that guy
32:38
Speaker 2: so well. Do you know there is a chapter in
32:40
Speaker 2: my book that's called Judge Judy. I didn't know that, Yes,
32:47
Speaker 2: where I compare a quality in therapist no bs quality
32:52
Speaker 2: to Judge Judy because I love Judge Judy.
32:55
Speaker 1: But the flip side, not even the flip side, a
32:57
Speaker 1: complimentary aspect to that. That also, you emanate, is this
33:04
Speaker 1: amazing appreciation for life and for connection and for human being,
33:09
Speaker 1: this which is coming forth from you?
33:13
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I do love life. You're picking up so well, Guys,
33:18
Speaker 2: that might be your experience coming through your qualities.
33:23
Speaker 1: Look, Kate, love talking to you. How do people learn
33:27
Speaker 1: more about you and uh, your work and the and
33:31
Speaker 1: the book that's coming out. What's the best way?
33:33
Speaker 2: The best way is to head to my website existentialpractice
33:37
Speaker 2: dot org and everything is there, my blog and my
33:40
Speaker 2: book and things about me.
33:43
Speaker 1: Okay, and we'll have all that linked up here at
33:46
Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Kate,
33:50
Speaker 1: super inspiring, My God, love you back.
33:54
Speaker 2: I loved talking to you guys. Thank you so much
33:58
Speaker 2: and have a lovely afternoon. I believe it's Upton there
34:02
Speaker 2: it is. Will be in touch, thank you bye,