Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Serial Killer Stalks Philly: “Snuff Film” Cracks Case Open?

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Serial Killer Stalks Philly: “Snuff Film” Cracks Case Open? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tonight, a serial killer stalking Philadelphia.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: This is a snuff film. Cracks this case wide open.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Police find violent videos and photographs of missing women inside
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: the home of erotic photographer R.C.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Horsch.
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  Speaker 3: This video depicts a female and R.C.
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  Speaker 4: Horsch.
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  Speaker 3: Both are not wearing clothing. There's two separate cameras, one
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: he's controlling and one that's affixed. The female uses narcotics
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: and then affixed to the bed with handcuffs. He puts
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: a zip tie around her neck and she becomes unconscious.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: in these images, initially, where we seen a 27-year-old Gabrielle
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Armando and a 26-year-old Maribel Fereces, who were in the
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: house lying unconscious. They had what appeared to be injuries
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: on them, but that's all they really had. They were
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: just images. So at that time, we did notify family.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: They are still missing and haven't been seen.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Because they're dead. They're dead.
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  Speaker 5: And.
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  Speaker 1: That is what a snuff film is. It's some sort
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  Speaker 1: of film where typically the woman actually dies in the film.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: That is from our friends Live Now from Fox. Now
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  Speaker 1: we are learning not only are at least seven women
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  Speaker 1: linked to the same Philadelphia house of horrors, that there
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  Speaker 1: are very likely more. And these so-called snuff films, have
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  Speaker 1: made their way to an underground snuff film network where pervs, ghouls,
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  Speaker 1: all over the world watch women get sexually tortured and
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: then murdered on camera. Straight out to Joe Holden. You
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: know him well. Chief investigative reporter, anchor, CBS News Philly.
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  Speaker 6: Joe Holden.
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  Speaker 1: What in the world and how is it that no
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: one knew what was going on behind those closed doors
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: and that Philly home?
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  Speaker 7: I don't think we're at a point where we're able
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  Speaker 7: to establish who knew what and if people knew things
• 2:42
  Speaker 7: were going on. But what is playing out here in
• 2:45
  Speaker 7: Philadelphia was really worn to be believed to be the
• 2:48
  Speaker 7: worst case scenario. This started in late June when R.C.
• 2:53
  Speaker 7: Horsh's son was picked up. near the Liberty Bell for
• 2:56
  Speaker 7: acting like he was in a fight with another woman, who,
• 3:00
  Speaker 7: by the way, had a fake ID on her.
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  Speaker 4: R.C.
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  Speaker 7: Horse, his son, also had fake federal credentials.
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  Speaker 8: R.C.
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  Speaker 7: Horse's son is taken into custody.
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  Speaker 8: His name is Eugene.
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  Speaker 7: And then the whole case spirals from there. We were
• 3:16
  Speaker 7: told that.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, hold on. Joe, Joe, Joe. You've got
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  Speaker 1: to look at your monitor. Can I see those photos again, please,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: that you were just playing? I mean, you see this
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  Speaker 1: guy coming toward you on the street.
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  Speaker 4: Run.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Are you in? I mean, and let's see the others.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: You know, joining us, veteran criminal defense attorney Jeff Wolf. Jeff,
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  Speaker 1: what do you make of that?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it's not the most flattering photos, but
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  Speaker 5: these are mug shots, right?
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  Speaker 9: So.
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  Speaker 5: I don't want to sit here and say, okay, that's
• 3:52
  Speaker 5: not a mugshot right there. But he also doesn't look
• 3:55
  Speaker 5: nearly as bad in that one. That one's not great.
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: You're really coming at me. I appreciate that. But the
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  Speaker 5: mugshots are the worst case scenario. And there's a reason
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: that mugshots typically don't come in at a trial, which
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: is not what we're having here. But yes, you are correct.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: I get them in. I never had a problem getting
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: mugshots in.
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  Speaker 5: Well, you never went up against me.
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  Speaker 1: And compared to those four ladies that I just showed you,
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  Speaker 1: and that's the tip of the iceberg.
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  Speaker 7: Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, did you see those guys? That would make
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: a train take a dirt road.
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  Speaker 10: But according to one of the homicide detectives, R.C. Horsch
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  Speaker 10: spent his life perfecting being evil. In other words, this
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  Speaker 10: was his guiding force in life. He wanted to be
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  Speaker 10: an evil person. There were urns in that house. that
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  Speaker 10: they believe contained human remains. There are snuff films where
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  Speaker 10: they are putting zip ties around women's neck who appear
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  Speaker 10: live at one point, then unconscious, and then appear dead.
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  Speaker 10: A 55 gallon tank or barrel in the basement of
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  Speaker 10: that home with hoses leading to pipes. Their entire lives
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  Speaker 10: were organized around a fascination with death and sex. That's
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  Speaker 10: all they cared about.
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  Speaker 1: Seven missing women now linked to a house of horrors
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  Speaker 1: in Philly. Police say they have found over one million
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  Speaker 1: photos and videos depicting multiple, multiple other apparent corpses. Back to,
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  Speaker 1: we are just about to go to a young lady
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  Speaker 1: that came in touch with, this is a father-son duo,
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  Speaker 1: but Joe Holden, I wanted you to look at your
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  Speaker 1: monitor and see these people. Please pick it up where
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  Speaker 1: you were.
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  Speaker 7: Well, you know what? I mean, here's the case as
• 5:46
  Speaker 7: it stands with us is that he is with these women.
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  Speaker 7: And then somehow through videos that police are now at
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  Speaker 7: 30 percent of review, there are a million videos. And
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  Speaker 7: this man here, R.C. Horsch, allegedly then, according to some
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  Speaker 7: search warrants that we were able to review, was doing
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  Speaker 7: a process called alkaline hydrolysis. It's known as wet cremation. That,
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  Speaker 7: at the very end of the day, is what investigators
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  Speaker 7: believe was happening in the basement of that property there
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  Speaker 7: in the Olney section of Philadelphia. He was able to
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  Speaker 7: chemically destroy human remains, basically leaving police with a whole
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  Speaker 7: heap pile of questions of, you know, what the hell?
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  Speaker 7: And now there are in excess of 50 containers of
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  Speaker 7: what's described to an oily, sludgy substance taken to an
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  Speaker 7: FBI crime lab in Chicago for testing. Investigators are hell-bent
• 6:41
  Speaker 7: on trying to lift any potential presence of DNA or
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  Speaker 7: human remains from those containers of sludge to find if
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  Speaker 7: they can actually trace where their body's in this basement,
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  Speaker 7: but they are operating on the theory that this man
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  Speaker 7: was conducting what is known as wet cremation, to basically
• 7:00
  Speaker 7: snap the trail and keep investigators off his back.
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  Speaker 1: Well, one way to do that, Joe Holden, is not
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  Speaker 1: leave all the drums of wet, cremated bodies in your basement.
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  Speaker 1: But how many drums did you say?
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  Speaker 4: Fifty.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, Jeff Gentry joining us. Jeffrey Gentry, Forensic Certified Bloodstain
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Pattern Analyst and Senior Crime Scene Analyst and Death Investigator.
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  Speaker 1: author of Forensic Science, Applications to Death and Crime Scene Investigations,
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  Speaker 1: and you can find him at evidenceoverassumption.com. Wet cremation, 50 drums,
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  Speaker 1: crime scene analyst, field day. I guarantee you that he
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  Speaker 1: did not mix bodies. That did not happen. I can't
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  Speaker 1: tell you why. It's just like a dog, circles three
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  Speaker 1: times before it sits down. I guarantee you that each
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  Speaker 1: one of those 50 drums represents something individually.
• 8:03
  Speaker 11: I think you're probably right. And I'm not a defense attorney,
• 8:05
  Speaker 11: so I will be happy to say that I, like you,
• 8:07
  Speaker 11: would run the opposite way as well. And it's not
• 8:10
  Speaker 11: a coincidence that there's a murder house and people are missing.
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  Speaker 11: And this is a horrible task for the investigators because
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  Speaker 11: these guys are using chemicals to likely break down bodies.
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  Speaker 11: And the alkaline hydrolysis is a known cremation method. where
• 8:25
  Speaker 11: it breaks down the tissues, it breaks down any biological material,
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  Speaker 11: and then you can just essentially wash it down the drain.
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  Speaker 11: So that's going to be a really difficult task to
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  Speaker 11: obtain usable DNA samples, because not only are you dealing
• 8:37
  Speaker 11: with quite a big mess, but then you're dealing with
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  Speaker 11: possibly chemicals that are going to disrupt the ability to
• 8:44
  Speaker 11: get a usable DNA result. So this is a huge task.
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  Speaker 11: And what they're looking for in these drums are any...
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  Speaker 11: any tissue samples, any remaining biological material. And then of
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  Speaker 11: course they're tearing apart the plumbing to try to find
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  Speaker 11: samples as well that could be usable samples for testing.
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  Speaker 1: You said it's going to be hard. I disagree. And
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  Speaker 1: I'll tell you why. I think there's going to be
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  Speaker 1: so much DNA.
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  Speaker 6: Come on.
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  Speaker 1: If the guy left 50 drums of sludge, which we
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  Speaker 1: believe is wet cremation on victims there in the home,
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  Speaker 1: There's going to be so much more. It's not like
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  Speaker 1: this guy thought to wipe everything down with wet wipes.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Thomas Smith joining us. I want you to follow up
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: on what Gentry just said. Smith, NYPD, 30 years. He
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: is now a co-star of the Gold Shields podcast. It's
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: amazing to me. And we're about to talk to these guys.
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  Speaker 1: It's a father and son duo straight from hell. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: allegedly straight from hell. I've got a neighbor joining us,
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  Speaker 1: and I don't know how creepy that must be to
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  Speaker 1: read the news on Monday morning and find out. out
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  Speaker 1: you've been living to an alleged serial killer. I always wonder,
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  Speaker 1: did anyone notice women going in and never coming out?
• 10:09
  Speaker 9: Yeah, well, that's going to be part of the investigation
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  Speaker 9: and what detectives are going to be facing. You know,
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  Speaker 9: these interviews are going to be very, very important with
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  Speaker 9: the case going forward. on top of all the evidence
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  Speaker 9: that's going to be collected, as you were stating. But
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  Speaker 9: the statements of neighbors, the statements of the individuals who
• 10:26
  Speaker 9: were there, the other women who.
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  Speaker 12: Survived this, and the amount of women who went missing
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  Speaker 12: and are still unaccounted for until this broke. So there's
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  Speaker 12: going to be many, many more. There's much more coming
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  Speaker 12: out of this. This is going to get worse before
• 10:41
  Speaker 12: it gets better.
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  Speaker 1: Joining us right now, a woman who actually lived to
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  Speaker 1: tell the tale. a woman who went into this house
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  Speaker 1: of horrors where the father's son, Eugene, paid her to
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  Speaker 1: take photos in his upstairs dungeon. We are using an
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  Speaker 1: alias Jane and are not showing her. And I don't
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  Speaker 1: blame you, Jane. I don't blame you for keeping your
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  Speaker 1: identity a secret right now until this whole thing is over.
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  Speaker 1: Tell me how you ended up inside this murder house.
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  Speaker 13: Um, well, I initially was waiting for a bus, um,
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  Speaker 13: right at 5th and Olney, which is not far from
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  Speaker 13: the 417 Q street location. Um, and, uh, Eugene with
• 11:39
  Speaker 13: another young woman pulled up and, um, kind of, you know,
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  Speaker 13: asked me if I would be interested in taking some photos.
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  Speaker 4: At the time, I was in active addiction still. And
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  Speaker 4: knowing I was.
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  Speaker 13: Only at $ 10 in my pocket and that wasn't going
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  Speaker 13: to get me far, I did agree to go ahead
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  Speaker 13: because there was another female there.
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  Speaker 4: And that's how the initial meeting happened.
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  Speaker 1: What did you observe when you entered the Horsch home?
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  Speaker 13: Well, they kept it very dark. Um, we kind of
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  Speaker 13: just went in the front door and right up to
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  Speaker 13: the stairs. Uh, I believe Ray was in the living room. Um,
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  Speaker 13: and Eugene, myself and female went up to that second
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  Speaker 13: floor room. At that point, we did start taking some
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  Speaker 13: pictures together, her and I, um, he was not involved
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  Speaker 13: as far as in any of the pictures.
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  Speaker 4: He was there just doing the photography.
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  Speaker 1: I'm defense attorney Jeff Wolf joining us. Jeff, what can
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: you possibly do with that scenario if you're stuck with
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: defending these guys?
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  Speaker 5: I mean, you're going to have to come up with something, right?
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  Speaker 5: And what we know to be true is there are
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  Speaker 5: people out there that will pay to watch this stuff.
• 12:59
  Speaker 5: There are artistic licenses that people take with things that
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: you and I may not be interested in viewing. And
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  Speaker 5: I heard you say you wanted to take a break
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  Speaker 5: to vomit. This isn't for you. But this is stuff
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  Speaker 5: that you're putting it up right there. This is stuff
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  Speaker 5: that he was selling to a certain community prior to this.
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  Speaker 5: And there is a First Amendment right to produce art.
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  Speaker 5: And some art is disgusting to the normal citizen. And
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  Speaker 5: this may very well be that. But that doesn't necessarily
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  Speaker 5: mean that just because you're producing art that is morally
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  Speaker 5: repugnant to a large segment of the population that you
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  Speaker 5: then murdered the person.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, note to self, do not get into Jeff Wolf's
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: DVD collection. That said, back to Jane. Jane, so you're
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: in there. What was in the dungeon? What did you observe?
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: Not much. There was a bed.
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  Speaker 13: It looked like one of the old-time hospital beds with
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  Speaker 13: the metal frame. That bed actually had a set of
• 14:02
  Speaker 13: handcuffs that hung off the side of the top of
• 14:04
  Speaker 13: the headboard part. a table, a lamp, maybe like blackout
• 14:11
  Speaker 13: curtains of some sort, or maybe a blanket. It was
• 14:13
  Speaker 13: over the window, but it was a dark, dark room.
• 14:17
  Speaker 13: And not much else was in the room except for
• 14:20
  Speaker 13: the three of us and those few other items.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: Okay, Dr.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, I didn't properly introduce her, and boy, do
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I need a shrink and a drink. Sadly, I don't drink,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: so all I've got is a shrink. Dr. Bethany Marshall
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: is a renowned psychoanalyst. She's the author of Deal Breaker.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: You can see her on Peacock, Hulu, Bravo, brand new podcast.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: It's a hit on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: and you can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. You know, Bethany,
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  Speaker 1: when I asked Jane, not her real name, what she observed,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I was not prepared for her answer because what she
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: said was more chilling than the typical, oh, there were handcuffs,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: there were chains, there was a torture stretcher, blah, blah, blah,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: the same thing we always see in torture chambers. A
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: hospital bed?
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: What?
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: A hospital bed. What kind of perv doings is that?
• 15:36
  Speaker 10: Nancy, my first thought is a hospital bed is easy
• 15:39
  Speaker 10: to clean when there's blood, bodily fluids, semen, all of that.
• 15:45
  Speaker 10: You know, Nancy, so many of those snuff films had
• 15:50
  Speaker 10: women who were handcuffed to that bed with zip ties
• 15:54
  Speaker 10: around their neck, first appearing conscious and then appearing unconscious,
• 15:59
  Speaker 10: I would have guessed. allegedly aided with the drugs that R.C.
• 16:04
  Speaker 10: Horsch wanted to supply Gansi. I am desperate to correct
• 16:10
  Speaker 10: our defense attorney. He did not prey on women who
• 16:14
  Speaker 10: were drug addicts. He preyed on women who wanted to
• 16:18
  Speaker 10: get ahead, just like Epstein, just like P.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Diddy.
• 16:22
  Speaker 10: He promised them that he would get them into Playboy magazines.
• 16:26
  Speaker 10: He promised that he would take photos and make them
• 16:29
  Speaker 10: famous in some way. He just happened to choose people
• 16:33
  Speaker 10: who were temporarily estranged from family members who might not
• 16:37
  Speaker 10: notice that they went missing. You know, Nancy, I interviewed
• 16:41
  Speaker 10: one of the victims of Ray Horsch who was able
• 16:44
  Speaker 10: to get away. And you know what she told me?
• 16:46
  Speaker 10: She told me that he arranged to photograph her. He
• 16:51
  Speaker 10: was on his deathbed and he had an erection. On
• 16:57
  Speaker 10: his deathbed, he had an erection. So this tells me
• 17:02
  Speaker 10: that photographing, handcuffing, being sadistic, and not just killing women, Nancy,
• 17:09
  Speaker 10: slowly watching them drift out while they are in pain
• 17:15
  Speaker 10: was sexually arousing to him. And to this whole online
• 17:20
  Speaker 10: community of slimy individuals who now have all that material, Nancy,
• 17:26
  Speaker 10: All these women were victimized once, photographed twice, possibly killed. Third,
• 17:33
  Speaker 10: they and their families are now victimized by the fact
• 17:36
  Speaker 10: that all these images are being used as material online.
• 17:41
  Speaker 10: And that is part of the growing cancer in this situation.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Back to Jane, who actually went into the home and
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: lived to talk about it. After you saw the dungeon,
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: after you refused to lick the other woman's injection site,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: what happened?
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: I can't. We just continued with the picture taking.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, I started feeling a little uneasy
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: because questions that were being asked. And so at that point,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: I called my boyfriend and left. Personal questions.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: What kind of questions?
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: Questions about. um family members who uh was around me
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: a lot uh if i had a lot of people
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: in my life.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: I would have run they would have seen nothing but
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: elbow and tail hole that's it gone bye-bye what what
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: went through your mind when they started asking you was
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: it the father or the son.
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: The son the son um when he started.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Asking you about do you have any close family members
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: what went through your mind.
• 18:55
  Speaker 6: Paranoia.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: That's when it started getting very uncomfortable.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: I don't think you were paranoid. I think that you
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: had an instinct that saved your life. How often do
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: you lay awake, Jane, and think about how close you
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: got to being one of those women in those snuff films?
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: Every night. Just about every night since the story broke, yes.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Joining me now is Jennifer, also using an alias, It's
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: so bizarre that this is a father-son duo. Jennifer is
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Horsh's former neighbor. She does not want her name or
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: photo released. Jennifer, thank you for being with us and
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: we will never divulge your identity. You can count on that.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: You stated that the neighborhood noticed his home and knew
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: to stay away from it. Tell me what you observed.
• 19:55
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so I was his former neighbor back in Chauvin,
• 20:00
  Speaker 6: which he lived for 20 years. He was the creepy
• 20:07
  Speaker 6: guy up the street. Um, he had women going in
• 20:12
  Speaker 6: out of the home often. Um, he, you saw them
• 20:18
  Speaker 6: go in, you never saw them really come out. Um,
• 20:21
  Speaker 6: we didn't think much of it. I mean, I was
• 20:23
  Speaker 6: a kid at the time. Um, so, but our parents
• 20:27
  Speaker 6: always said, walk on the other side of the street,
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: don't wave to him. He just was not friendly. Um, he, um,
• 20:38
  Speaker 6: It was very odd. It was very different living with
• 20:42
  Speaker 6: someone like that up the street. We didn't know what
• 20:45
  Speaker 6: he was doing in the house. We had no idea
• 20:50
  Speaker 6: until he was raided in 2009 in Chauvin for drugs
• 20:58
  Speaker 6: and guns and porn. But there were no.
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: Speculations of murder at the time but later you know
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: finding out that there are women's IDs that were discovered
• 21:17
  Speaker 6: in that home that somehow just vanished by the DA
• 21:22
  Speaker 6: was shocking and it was just it was all very
• 21:29
  Speaker 6: very odd to us very scary growing up with him.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: What did the home look like from the outside, Jennifer?
• 21:39
  Speaker 6: It was run down. He didn't keep it up, like
• 21:43
  Speaker 6: upkeep it at all. It was, he had, he didn't
• 21:48
  Speaker 6: like keep his lawn nice. He was very private. Everything was,
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: you know, curtains on everything. Everything was closed, everything. So,
• 21:59
  Speaker 6: I mean, essentially he was the neighbor that was just dirty, didn't,
• 22:06
  Speaker 6: you just avoided. And that, I mean, that was how
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: he felt.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Were you shocked at all when you discovered what had
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: been going on in the home?
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: I was, my jaw hit the floor. I mean, when
• 22:23
  Speaker 6: he was raided back in 09, the top of my
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: street was, blockaded off um we walked up there um
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: they were pulling plants and guns and everything out of
• 22:36
  Speaker 6: that house his basement was uh careened into like a
• 22:40
  Speaker 6: torture chamber um and it was utterly shocking um we
• 22:50
  Speaker 6: are a suburban community to to have something like that
• 22:54
  Speaker 6: happen was It was horrific. It was uneasy being a
• 23:02
  Speaker 6: younger teen girl. And I can't explain the uneasy feeling.
• 23:10
  Speaker 6: And even to this day, I still live in... I
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: bought my family home. I still live in this family home.
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: Even to this day, that house, my children, that house,
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: we avoid it. It's had new owners, but I... there
• 23:26
  Speaker 6: is something wrong with that. Whether it was growing up
• 23:30
  Speaker 6: around that house has just always given me that feeling
• 23:33
  Speaker 6: and knowing what was being done in there. But yeah,
• 23:39
  Speaker 6: it's horrible.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: You know, to Joe Holden joining us, chief investigative reporter, anchor,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: CBS News Philly, she brought up a really good point.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: There was a raid in 2009 and I guess no
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: evidence was found suggesting what was really going on in
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the home. I wonder how many lives could have been
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: saved since 2009.
• 24:04
  Speaker 6: Possibly.
• 24:05
  Speaker 7: I mean, he goes to jail for a few years
• 24:08
  Speaker 7: on the weapons and drug charges. His attorney actually tried
• 24:13
  Speaker 7: to suppress evidence in the case. They tried to get
• 24:16
  Speaker 7: the whole case thrown out, yet Raymond Horsch ended up
• 24:19
  Speaker 7: going to prison for that. This is a full 14
• 24:22
  Speaker 7: years before... All hell breaks loose in Olney, Philadelphia, back
• 24:26
  Speaker 7: in June, where Philadelphia police are fearing the worst. They're
• 24:30
  Speaker 7: telling us, keep your eyes on the dad. Fixate on
• 24:34
  Speaker 7: the dad. We have the son, but we believe the
• 24:36
  Speaker 7: dad is the villain. And the books that you're showing,
• 24:40
  Speaker 7: they've since been canceled by Amazon within the last few days.
• 24:43
  Speaker 7: Empathy is the supposed diary of an empathetic serial killer.
• 24:48
  Speaker 7: It basically provided R.C. Horsch's own writing for what he
• 24:53
  Speaker 7: was doing, graphic sexual activities. At one point, he acknowledges
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: in the book that he strangles a woman and then
• 25:00
  Speaker 7: performs this process of wet cremation, getting rid of the remains.
• 25:05
  Speaker 7: So this is like chasing down a rabbit hole into
• 25:08
  Speaker 7: the mind of what we are only at this point
• 25:11
  Speaker 7: looking at, a potential serial killer here in Philadelphia.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Tom Smith, NYPD. Star of Gold Shields podcast. What do
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: these two have to do? Take out an ad on
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: 3rd Avenue? I'm a serial killer. An alleged serial killer.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Come bust me. Please find the 50 containers of wet
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: cremation in my basement. I mean, let me see that
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: book again. The man writes a book about wet cremation
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: and how he kills people and nobody notices?
• 25:44
  Speaker 12: Yeah, that's very.
• 25:45
  Speaker 9: Disturbing in hearing the account, you know, of your guest
• 25:48
  Speaker 9: was just as disturbing talking about that everybody knew what
• 25:51
  Speaker 9: was going on, including the district attorney.
• 25:54
  Speaker 12: So like you said, Nancy, what has to be done?
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: You know, do you have.
• 25:57
  Speaker 9: To wait until a body falls out of the house,
• 26:01
  Speaker 9: you know, before you do something? There are ways to
• 26:04
  Speaker 9: conduct investigations on information that's being developed through the neighborhoods.
• 26:10
  Speaker 9: and what's being said, there are ways to do that.
• 26:13
  Speaker 9: And that should have been done in this case, along
• 26:15
  Speaker 9: with the cooperation of the district attorney in this, especially
• 26:19
  Speaker 9: when you have past experiences of people, you have him
• 26:22
  Speaker 9: in jail, you have other worries that are going on
• 26:24
  Speaker 9: in that community. You know, when you have these thoughts
• 26:28
  Speaker 9: out there, investigations are allowed to be done. And I
• 26:31
  Speaker 9: would love to know why they weren't and who was
• 26:35
  Speaker 9: responsible for not conducting these investigations when there seems to
• 26:39
  Speaker 9: be so much evidence or intelligence enough to conduct one.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jeff Gentry joining us, certified
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: crime scene analyst and author of Forensic Science, applications to
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: death and crime scene investigations, please tell me that there
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: is a way to extract victims' DNA from wet cremation containers.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: It looks like sludge.
• 27:21
  Speaker 11: Within the container itself, I think there are ways to
• 27:25
  Speaker 11: do that. It's going to be complicated. You would need
• 27:27
  Speaker 11: to find a lab that could process possibly multiple samples
• 27:32
  Speaker 11: at the same time. So you'd have DNA mixtures. If
• 27:34
  Speaker 11: there's multiple people that are being murdered in the same
• 27:37
  Speaker 11: home or areas where multiple people have been killed or
• 27:40
  Speaker 11: harmed or bleeding, you're looking at potentially very complicated DNA
• 27:45
  Speaker 11: mixtures with multiple people, but it can be done. And
• 27:48
  Speaker 11: then within the barrels themselves, I'd be looking on the
• 27:50
  Speaker 11: outside of the barrel where the person was picked up.
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: And put into the barrel.
• 27:54
  Speaker 11: I'd be swabbing that. I would actually test inside of
• 27:57
  Speaker 11: the barrel to see if there's any biological samples left,
• 27:59
  Speaker 11: whether it be the remains of tissue or hair or
• 28:03
  Speaker 11: anything that you can get a usable DNA sample out of.
• 28:06
  Speaker 11: It's very hard once you start mixing chemicals, body fluids,
• 28:11
  Speaker 11: multiple body fluids from different people. So it is difficult,
• 28:15
  Speaker 11: but it can be done. So it is a rather
• 28:18
  Speaker 11: large task for these investigators. So you'd wanna combine that,
• 28:21
  Speaker 11: of course, with the information that they're getting from all
• 28:23
  Speaker 11: this digital media, trying to match up DNA samples from
• 28:29
  Speaker 11: known missing victims to what you're getting from your DNA results.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Ironically, twice Raymond Horsch arrested in Bucks County. That was
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: on stolen property, according to the public docket we uncovered.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Now catch this, the defense attorney joining us tonight, the
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer with a huge string of wins in court,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: he's going to love this. Horsch's work as an artist
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: inadvertently led to his more serious arrest, revealing his, quote, creative,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: obsession with sexual violence. So what's next for you, Jeff Wolf,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: arguing first amendment, freedom of speech and freedom of art.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: This was all just a pursuit of art and we've
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: got it all wrong.
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: Well, that's the path forward. Yeah, that is the path
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: forward is to argue that you have to separate the
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: art from the artists, right? That's the argument that you
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: have to be able to make. And you have.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: To let me see Wolf as he makes this argument.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Go ahead, Jeff.
• 29:31
  Speaker 13: I'm sorry.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: I need to look at you because you are, in fact,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: keeping a straight face. I admire that. Go ahead.
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: I can keep a straight face through anything. That's my job.
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: You have to be able to separate the art from
• 29:42
  Speaker 5: the artist here. And what you need to be able
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: to do is you have to argue the lack of
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: evidence here. And you have to say, look, we have
• 29:50
  Speaker 5: missing women. It is under a cloud of suspicion. But
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: suspicion is not beyond a reasonable doubt. And that is
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: the job here. That is the job of any good
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: defense attorney. And it can feel as icky and horrific
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: as we want it to feel, but that is the job.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I can't wait till you follow that train of thought
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: through to its logical conclusion. I guess all those drums
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: of wet cremation sludge just close themselves. Okay, guys, joining
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: me right now, a special guest, in addition to Jane,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: who somehow made it out alive from that house, and Jennifer,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: the neighbor of Joining us now is Christy, who actually modeled,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: modeled inside the Horsch home. Christy, what happened? How did
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: you end up going into the home?
• 30:41
  Speaker 8: So when I came to his house, he gave me
• 30:45
  Speaker 8: his address. I got dropped off by a boyfriend on
• 30:47
  Speaker 8: 2 Avenue in Kensington. They're kind of already waiting for me,
• 30:52
  Speaker 8: him and some other girl. And he opened the door
• 30:57
  Speaker 8: and that's as far as I went into is the
• 31:00
  Speaker 8: living room. Um, when I went into the living room, um,
• 31:07
  Speaker 8: it was dark. It was, I mean, it wasn't clean,
• 31:14
  Speaker 8: but I mean, what Kensington house really kind of is,
• 31:17
  Speaker 8: if you know, Kensington, Philadelphia, um, You know, he had carpet,
• 31:25
  Speaker 8: but then he had the wood panel flooring. So I'm
• 31:28
  Speaker 8: not sure if they were pulling up the carpet or
• 31:33
  Speaker 8: whatever they were doing with the wood paneling on the floor.
• 31:37
  Speaker 8: And the wood paneling looked like it was to an
• 31:39
  Speaker 8: older house.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Interesting. I'm just wondering what exactly you saw in there, Christy.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Did you see anyone else in there?
• 31:47
  Speaker 8: I can see the stairs, but... And I can see
• 31:52
  Speaker 8: the dining room kitchen area. And in that area was
• 31:59
  Speaker 8: a blonde-haired girl. She didn't seem scared. I seen just
• 32:03
  Speaker 8: the back of her. He was talking to her. She
• 32:07
  Speaker 8: looked very comfortable just talking back and forth. So I
• 32:12
  Speaker 8: didn't think anything at the time. He had a brown couch.
• 32:20
  Speaker 8: He had a floral chair and a woven like, I
• 32:27
  Speaker 8: forget what we would call them today, but they're like
• 32:30
  Speaker 8: an antique woven looking chair. Those are the two chairs
• 32:37
  Speaker 8: that I did model in. It was just him by himself.
• 32:41
  Speaker 8: I mean, his son could have been in a house
• 32:43
  Speaker 8: because his son was like my age at the time.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, Christy, because they lived together and they
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: were definitely two peas in a pod. You know, we've
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: heard so much, Christy, about the house being dark. Neighbor
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Jennifer told us it was always closed up with curtains.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: We know there's 50 containers of human cremation, wet cremation
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: in the basement. What did it smell like, if anything?
• 33:07
  Speaker 8: It just smelled like an old, dirty house, like that
• 33:11
  Speaker 8: would be moldy. If you leave your trash and you
• 33:14
  Speaker 8: have food in your trash for like a week or two,
• 33:18
  Speaker 8: that is the kind of smell like it's smell. It
• 33:22
  Speaker 8: wasn't like a, oh my God, like I gotta get
• 33:25
  Speaker 8: out of here smell. It was just like, I can
• 33:27
  Speaker 8: tolerate that, but it.
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: Doesn't smell good.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: So he was taking pictures of you in those woven
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: chairs modeling. Did he say anything?
• 33:38
  Speaker 8: While he was taking pictures, you know, he, he talks like,
• 33:42
  Speaker 8: he knew what he was talking about and he's very smart.
• 33:46
  Speaker 8: He talked about if you smell anything like unusual, like
• 33:52
  Speaker 8: I'm trying to be a scientist or something like I'm
• 33:57
  Speaker 8: trying to experiment with certain chemicals, something along those lines.
• 34:01
  Speaker 8: Cause I don't a hundred percent remember.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, a scientist. Okay. Maybe a mad evil scientist. That said, Christy, you,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: came in contact with another woman who had been inside
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: this house of horrors what did she observe.
• 34:22
  Speaker 8: She describes upstairs now she was there three years ago
• 34:28
  Speaker 8: and this is still fresh to her versus me um
• 34:34
  Speaker 8: eugene took the photos why Ray was there. He was
• 34:40
  Speaker 8: on his deathbed, basically still directing how he wanted those photos. Um,
• 34:48
  Speaker 8: she said that there was a dark hair girl in
• 34:50
  Speaker 8: the room. So from there, I feel like he might've
• 34:56
  Speaker 8: had another female always present to make another female feel comfortable.
• 35:01
  Speaker 8: That's just kind of what I'm, I'm getting, I could
• 35:03
  Speaker 8: be wrong. Um, She describes it as a dungeon. The upstairs,
• 35:12
  Speaker 8: one of the rooms, I'm pretty sure she said it
• 35:15
  Speaker 8: could have been a bedroom. She describes it as a dungeon.
• 35:18
  Speaker 8: And a dungeon meaning dark, scary, creepy, like a Halloween prop, basically.
• 35:32
  Speaker 8: That's how she was describing it. And very dirty. She describes.
• 35:39
  Speaker 12: Like a big.
• 35:40
  Speaker 8: Dumpster that hasn't came for, you're at the Chinese place
• 35:46
  Speaker 8: and they come and you smell that. She said that
• 35:49
  Speaker 8: is what she smelt. Like it was putrid, like horrible.
• 35:56
  Speaker 8: I did not ask her how she kind of overcame
• 35:59
  Speaker 8: it and still worked because she said she was there
• 36:01
  Speaker 8: for two hours.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: I wonder how. A jury would react to the smell
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: of the home being putrid. Christy, you told me earlier
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: that you really couldn't tell what his intentions were at
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: the time. You were that close to becoming another murder victim,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I believe. Now, all of this is alleged, but you
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: still beat yourself up.
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: Why?
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: You survived.
• 36:35
  Speaker 8: Whatever his intentions were and however he got away with
• 36:38
  Speaker 8: a lot of this stuff is kind of like beyond me.
• 36:43
  Speaker 8: And I always beat myself up. Like, what if I
• 36:46
  Speaker 8: went upstairs? What if I asked to use the restroom?
• 36:50
  Speaker 8: What if I went downstairs? Would I still be here today? What,
• 36:59
  Speaker 8: what I've been able to like save someone else, you know,
• 37:02
  Speaker 8: like those are questions that I ask myself every day. Like,
• 37:06
  Speaker 8: and beat myself up over like, and I kind of
• 37:09
  Speaker 8: put my mind like, Christy, you know, you, you can't
• 37:13
  Speaker 8: save everybody, you know? Um, so that, that's kind of like,
• 37:17
  Speaker 8: just like what I, what I do and try to
• 37:22
  Speaker 8: help others.
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: Dr.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Bethany, it's, it's overwhelming to think about. It reminds me
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: of the Rex Urim and torture chamber, except frankly, I think,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: possibly on a larger scale, if that can even be imagined.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: The putrid smell, the darkness on the inside. We'll never
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: know how many women lost their lives, and now we're
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: trying to track down snuff films disseminated from that home
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: to see if we can match up the women who
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: and the films dying to missing people. It's just, it's overwhelming.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: It's so dark. It's straight out of Satan's bedroom.
• 38:12
  Speaker 10: Imagine the families, Nancy, hanging on every little piece of
• 38:17
  Speaker 10: news that comes out. Over a million pieces of digital evidence,
• 38:21
  Speaker 10: each one containing a clue to some woman's life. The
• 38:26
  Speaker 10: woman that walked upstairs to that dungeon... saw the hospital bed,
• 38:31
  Speaker 10: the handcuffs hanging from the side of that hospital bed,
• 38:34
  Speaker 10: reminds me of John Wayne Gacy and my patient, who
• 38:37
  Speaker 10: was one of the homicide detectives, that noticed stalactites forming
• 38:43
  Speaker 10: on the bottom of the mattress from all the boys
• 38:46
  Speaker 10: that had been killed. So much blood pouring through that mattress.
• 38:50
  Speaker 10: And we think of all these women, the blood, the
• 38:52
  Speaker 10: body parts, the zip ties around the neck, and the
• 38:56
  Speaker 10: putrid smell. Nancy, that's not Chinese food.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: It's not food.
• 39:01
  Speaker 10: It's not rats. It's not rodent feces. Those, Nancy, are
• 39:06
  Speaker 10: possibly human remains. Beautiful women who have sisters, mothers, brothers,
• 39:13
  Speaker 10: people who are members of our society, Nancy, in the
• 39:16
  Speaker 10: city that houses the Liberty Bell. Chaining, choking, killing, snuffing
• 39:24
  Speaker 10: is a way just to please one man's sexual proclivities.
• 39:29
  Speaker 10: It's all about sex, Nancy. It's all about sex. And
• 39:34
  Speaker 10: this torture chamber is now kept alive online. And I
• 39:39
  Speaker 10: do hope that the homicide detectives who are examining this
• 39:44
  Speaker 10: will follow a trail of digital evidence to every pervert,
• 39:49
  Speaker 10: every sadist, every serial killer who was online trying to
• 39:54
  Speaker 10: get a hold of those photos, that there will be
• 39:57
  Speaker 10: greater justice not only to the family house of horror victims,
• 40:01
  Speaker 10: but to victims all across our country.
• 40:03
  Speaker 6: You know, Dr.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Bethany, I've seen so many crime scenes and so many
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: dead bodies that you'd think I would be immune now,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: but I can't understand why anyone would want to Buy
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: a video, a movie, and see a lady actually killed.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: Not an actress, but a woman actually killed.
• 40:26
  Speaker 10: Because, Nancy, these men are so sexually compulsive that just
• 40:31
  Speaker 10: an image of a naked woman or having to deal
• 40:34
  Speaker 10: with a real woman who might talk back, might have opinions,
• 40:37
  Speaker 10: might want a relationship with them, they can't tolerate that, Nancy.
• 40:40
  Speaker 10: So they keep pushing the envelope. towards more and increasingly
• 40:46
  Speaker 10: gory scenes so that they can get arousal so that
• 40:50
  Speaker 10: they can have an orgasm, Nancy. I mean, it starts
• 40:54
  Speaker 10: with adults and then women and then boys and then
• 40:57
  Speaker 10: children and then torture and then cutting people's heads off.
• 41:00
  Speaker 10: And then Nancy actually inflicting the torture themselves, not just
• 41:04
  Speaker 10: relying on other people's handiwork, but inflicting the torture themselves.
• 41:08
  Speaker 10: And that's because in the brain of men's brains, aggression, emotion, excitement,
• 41:15
  Speaker 10: and arousal are all processed through the same parts of
• 41:20
  Speaker 10: the brain. And those instincts get confused so that inflicting
• 41:25
  Speaker 10: pain and sexual arousal become one and the same. And
• 41:29
  Speaker 10: then that becomes all they want in life, Nancy, because
• 41:32
  Speaker 10: it is a compulsion.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: To Joe Holden, our friend at CBS News Philly, what now, Joe?
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: What now?
• 41:42
  Speaker 7: Well, you know, as they have to go through these
• 41:44
  Speaker 7: one million pieces of evidence, the FBI has 100 analysts
• 41:48
  Speaker 7: looking at all sorts of videos and clearing some and
• 41:51
  Speaker 7: fixing on others. And then some of my sources in
• 41:54
  Speaker 7: the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office say, without knowing what that
• 41:58
  Speaker 7: sludge actually is, is their DNA, can they run down
• 42:01
  Speaker 7: a trail? They don't know if they'll ever be able
• 42:04
  Speaker 7: to come up with a prosecution. And they are so
• 42:08
  Speaker 7: focused on R.C.
• 42:10
  Speaker 13: Horsch.
• 42:11
  Speaker 7: So my sources are telling me they're trying to find
• 42:14
  Speaker 7: anything that ties his son, Eugene Horsch, to any of this,
• 42:22
  Speaker 7: what was going on inside that home at 417 West
• 42:25
  Speaker 7: 2 Avenue in the Olney section of Philadelphia. To the
• 42:28
  Speaker 7: extent that some of your guests have said that he's around,
• 42:32
  Speaker 7: that he's interacting with them, what evidence can they develop
• 42:37
  Speaker 7: that places him in a possible jeopardizing situation? that moves
• 42:41
  Speaker 7: the case forward against him and perhaps brings some accountability
• 42:45
  Speaker 7: for what was going on inside that home. That is
• 42:48
  Speaker 7: what's next. His lawyer won't speak to me on the record,
• 42:52
  Speaker 7: has declined to comment, but they have sort of an
• 42:55
  Speaker 7: uphill battle here with the feds as they are working
• 42:58
  Speaker 7: through drug and firearms charges. He wasn't supposed to have
• 43:02
  Speaker 7: that firearm on him when they picked him up near
• 43:05
  Speaker 7: the Liberty Bell in late June. So he is facing
• 43:09
  Speaker 7: significant exposure. on just some of these counts that could
• 43:13
  Speaker 7: land him in jail for a few more years.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything regarding this case,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: there are so many women's families out there wondering, where
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: are they? What happened to them? Please dial 215-686-8477. We
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: remember American Hero Police Officer Michael Horan. Greensboro PD, killed
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: in the line of duty.
• 43:44
  Speaker 6: U.S.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Coast Guard veteran leaving behind wife Courtney and children Kayla
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: and Nate. American hero, police officer Michael Horan. Thank you
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: to our guests, but especially to you for being with us.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight, but I'll see you
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.