Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 42 - Trauma, PTSD, and CPTSD - Part 2

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Episode 42 - Trauma, PTSD, and CPTSD - Part 2 · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, welcome to Psych for Sanity.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I am one of your hosts, Dr.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in the assessment and treatment of complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I am your other co-host, Dr.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Brendel Doss.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a licensed psychologist specializing in geriatric psychology, forensic psychology, trauma treatment, and child assessment.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Doss.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: How are you today?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: I've been better.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you've had a rough week.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: I have.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've had a rough week.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: And you know what's weird?
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's one of those weeks where nothing horrendous has happened and it's still been a bad week for some reason.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't, I feel like I'm like making a mountain out of a molehill.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like I'm somehow like I don't know.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's because we just have it's been so freaking busy.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's just yeah, busy and stressful.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: And when I already lead a pretty busy life, and then when it's even busier and I have less time, I get very little.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: I choose, I choose my choices.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: When I don't allow myself a lot of recharge time, I really suffer.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: You remember not so long ago, I used to see patients on the weekends.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I do.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: And now that was a sad choice.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: We all have a max capacity capacity in some, you know.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and and yours is high.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like actually, you can take a lot.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: I try to.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then you add on more on top of already a lot for most people.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then we get we get we get Brendel being Trouble in River City.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Having a really hard week.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's a musical theater reference.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um Trouble in River City.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways, it's the music man.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: No?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I don't know that one.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, maybe later.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's talk about that later.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, no, I it's just been that's the thing.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's just been a heavier, more frustrating week, and I'm really looking forward to the end of the day when I can reconnect with my family and like do nothing and disconnect.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Really looking forward to that.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Rest and reconnection.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Stress is yeah.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Rest, relaxation, reconnection.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that I do struggle with like I I keep myself in a chronic stress state.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: I do choose that, unfortunately, at times.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think you do, and I think I I do the same.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I agree.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so this week has been not as stressful as yours for me.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I have been feeling quite a lot of anger.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: You, I thought you didn't have that.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh yeah, everyone has everyone feels angry.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay, good.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Just checking.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I am not usually in touch with mine.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think I've talked about on the show before my history of complex trauma and my healing journey over the past couple of years.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been in a period of prolonged grieving.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of sadness about things from my childhood.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought the sadness would never end.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: It felt really like I'm, you know, and I'm still sad.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: There are still things I'm grieving in it, you know, in a loss kind of a way.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: But recently, over the past month, I've been feeling a lot of anger.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of rage, a lot of like old, I think this is old grief, right?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is old, yeah.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, these are old feelings, and this is a necessary part of grief.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And feeling angry also about what happened to you.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know what to do with anger.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I generally am wanting to avoid everyone and everything so that I don't say or do anything that might be offensive, you know.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like trying to figure out this anger thing, and it is uncomfortable.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I I don't think you've done anything that made me feel like I thought because of my actions last week that you were mad at me.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Which I it was not, but I have not, there's nothing in your actions that have indicated that you're angry besides you telling me towards me.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that I I think I I I guess I can appear very composed and okay on the outside.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, while on the inside kind of hosting a bunch of turmoil.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think I told you the other despair.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: You have an aqueduct of anger.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's like a well of it, right, from previous experiences that I didn't get to feel because it wasn't safe.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it is now coming out in addition to anger about what happened to me as a kid.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Does that indicate to you that you maybe feel safe now?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, that's a great question.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've been trying to figure this out because it felt like I wasn't doing anything to access it, but it was a it was a series of events in my life that turned on the anger, and it just hasn't, it hasn't turned off.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm trying to figure out what has triggered it and what where is it coming from and what do I need to do about it?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, so gonna say it one more time.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh scream club.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: She wants me to go to a scream.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's like a rage room, but you scream instead of throat.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even I've to be very transparent.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't even fully research it as I should have.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: I just sent it to you.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's like this club in our in our local area where I it was a there was a video of a large group of people and they were just screaming together in a field.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I could I could totally see how that kiggling, but I would be helpful.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that might be cathartic.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are things I know to do to kind of like get some of the angry energy out, like um hit workouts, for instance, like any kind of vigorous activity, boxing.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, my therapist has mentioned like push-ups or wall pushes.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: There are like kind of somatic exercises like that, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: That can help alleviate or kind of like, you know, um, yeah, slowly, I suppose, kind of get it all out.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: So your idea is not a bad idea.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't know how it's gonna be for my voice.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: I like to protect it because I'm a singer.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: You are a singer, and so we want to protect the instrument.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: So when I think about like rage screaming, and I've never been a screamer, I'm not a yeller.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's not where my anger naturally wanna go, but I do, you know, I do think something maybe physical or I don't know.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's where I'm at.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and that's what we're talking about again today.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Woohoo! How to treat complex trauma, CPTSD.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a complicated one.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you wanted to make sure and mention what we're gonna be talking about today is one way to treat complex trauma.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not the only way.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, and I mean I drew from my own experience.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So um I am heavily influenced by Pete Walker.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's the the person, the psychologist who wrote um complex post-traumatic stress disorder from surviving to thriving.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've mentioned it on the show.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Richard Swartz, who's the creator of internal family systems theory and then attachment theory in general, yeah.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's kind of where I come from.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've because through my training and my healing and my work with patients, this is kind of how I've pieced together your style.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: My style of treatment.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it doesn't necessarily follow this protocol every time.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I do pieces of it with different patients, but this is kind of my right.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's important to kind of put that disclaimer, and you know, we get a lot of comments sometimes, like, oh, that's not the right way to do this, or things like that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, we always want to welcome comments and feedback.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're want to show one viewpoint with this.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is like our minds, you know, coming together, talking about these topics and who we've been influenced by.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we recognize there are lots of certainly lots of different ways to treat complex trauma and CPTSD.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, I I mentioned I wanted to I brought the book on.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is the book that I talk about most, and I I liked this book when I read it because it felt like it was um sort of for the first time outlining for me CPTSD, and it made a lot of sense to me.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it was sort of like a roadmap, so to speak, to healing.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, Pete Walker and lots of lots of trauma researchers talk about complex PTSD as being developmental arrests.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, developmental arrests that that on different areas of domains kind of pause what would be otherwise like a typical developmental progression.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Kid, yes, um, children with abuse and neglect, they often don't necessarily develop the skills or meet the milestones they need in in lots a lot of different domains.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um cognitive, somatic, emotional, behavioral, um, yeah, relational.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not uncommon for someone with CPTSD to um lack self-compassion, self-acceptance, um, self-protection, right, um, creativity, um, what else?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: The ability to draw comfort from relationships.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, because of these developmental arrests and all of these different domains, then treatment for complex BTSD is multifaceted.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and and healing happens in layers.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I guess in my mind, I'm wondering your perspective on this.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I feel like a person can make progress on a certain layer, but then they kind of need to pause and then maybe shift to a different avenue.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find that to be true in your work or do you feel like it has to be stepwise?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily think it has to be stepwise.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, me neither.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know your perspective.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think so.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I kind of feel like it depends on where the patient is.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what level of healing and in what domain I think you kind of meet them where they're at, and hopefully at some point you get to like a deeper kind of level of healing.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Regardless, you know, you're kind of I think the reason why I love being a more eclectic provider too is because I can kind of I like to try out different things depending on where the patient is.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it so I think no, I don't think it has to be.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think it can be organic.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and just because we're gonna mention some of the areas like of arrest doesn't mean that a patient with complex PTSD has all of those areas specifically.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: You might have arrests in some and not others, and that's a very highly individual and specific experience.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or you can see very put together and competent and functional on the outside, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then on the inside, right?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Be battling a lot.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's sort of been my, I think, my how how things have been for me.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so because yes, because there are lots of developmental arrests, there are different types of treatment that are going to be helpful.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um with the developmental arrest, though, what are some of those specifically?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what areas?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like what kind, what's an example of an area that would be arrested in development?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so like okay, relationally.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Someone who has some developmental arrests or tends to act a little bit more image immaturely in a relationship, um, they may have a lot of trouble accepting responsibility.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or managing conflict or being vulnerable.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Something like that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: How I experience it, and I experienced this across settings.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And by that I mean in my work in long-term care, in my work with patients in the room, um, in my work with children in foster care.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I can go into a room and begin um an assessment or an intervention, like a therapy, and I'll just get a clinical sense this person is behaving at a different chronological age than their actual chronological age.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that indicates for me, normally within a year or two of when a trauma or traumas occurred.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right, right.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: You would yes.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so that would be um, yeah, a little bit regressive.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we can, you know, younger parts of us can show up if they're not quite integrated or or healed.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, um relational is one of those real big developmental arrests.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: You got cognitive, right?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So um being able to see the positive, for instance.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people who have developmental arrests in this way and cognitively tend to think a little bit more black and white, and maybe more negative focusing.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: All or nothing.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all or nothing.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, particularly when they're flooded or they're in a flashback.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: So other areas I think would be like areas with motivation that you kind of mentioned before.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, self-perception, self-like ability to care for self, like self-care.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Ability to draw comfort from relationships, I think I said emotional intelligence.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And not not necessarily that people with CPTSD aren't emotional.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, people with CPTSD, I think, are usually quite sensitive and intuitive.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but their emotional regulation is hard.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: That um absolutely right.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that that piece of emotional intelligence, or you know, being able to identify a sensation and then an emotion and communicate it and cope with it, that that is hard.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's hard.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's really hard for people with CPTSD.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So because of these sort of key arrests, again, treatment is going to be multifaceted.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: For me, when I when I see a patient that um has CPTSD, I usually start with psychoeducation.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, usually about CPTSD, emotional flashbacks, um, and particularly the the critics, like the cognitive piece is where a lot of my psychoed comes in, and then flashback management.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we're really at the beginning for me, and this I draw heavily from Pete Walker.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is how he's conceptualized it, is to try really hard to work on the cognitive pieces associated with all of the critic attacks.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Cognitively, for people with CPTSD, there is a lot of negative self-talk.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a lot of negative thinking up here that's distorted.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because it's related to intense emotions and stories we tell ourselves that we told ourselves when we were really little and we didn't have anyone helping us make sense.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So meaning making change the narrative.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's floating around up there quite a bit.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I usually start there.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um what about you?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think psychoeducation is so critical.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of folks that come in that I'm always very conscientious when I give CPTSD as a diagnosis or when I talk about what that is for a person.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because it can be misunderstood, because I think labels matter and I want to be intentional.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't always necessarily start off the bat that the first session of that conversation.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the big piece that a lot of people come in that have that relational kind of component with their trauma that we're talking about, just even beginning to say, do you know that you're you do you know that this is anxiety?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like even starting back before step one sometimes.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like basically.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Do you realize this is a sign of anxiety or this is a sign of perfectionism?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: It can be for sure, like that.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: And this is and so even that for some of my folks can take a session or two or more to like swallow and integrate and recognize, and then over time they're starting to recognize oh.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So then you would have you're talking about a pretty um, a pretty severe developmental arrest and emotional awareness, right?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: And an ability to sort of communicate emotions.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so that absolutely can be a place that you need to start, and that can be the work for a really long time while you're building the building blocks of emotional awareness and vocabulary, even.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think even outside of folks that I give the CPTSD diagnosis, I tend to get, and maybe it maybe it's um how I present myself professionally, which I'm okay with.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: I enjoy this part of the work.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: I get a lot of people that really don't understand their their emotions.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, that makes sense.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we did the whole emotion 101 series.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because we actually do this is very true.
• 16:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think even folks that don't have severe relational trauma or CPTSD.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure, sure.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have the emotional because we don't teach we don't teach this in schools and a some families, I would say a lot, but I would I can caveat this, and but some families don't teach emotional expression and awareness.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I yeah, I for sure.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not something some people really think about.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I think that's it it really correlates with where we are in the country, not to go too global, but you know, I like to do that.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're taking this like off the map.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, sorry.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: No, but but but think about it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like we've had increased, there's an increase in mental health issues, and there's more reports of the generation right behind us.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: I forget the term.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know all the names, terms.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: They've got their own vocabulary, Gen Z.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Gen Z paral much.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Gen Z.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Dylan.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there's an increase reports after the pandemic of race of anxiety and depression.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that that they're coming into the world and now realizing, oh, why do I feel this way?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then they realize they didn't get this emotional education.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So then when you add in trauma to that picture, well, it's just really sometimes healing can it it takes it takes a very long time.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: From my I I have been in therapy in some significant capacity since I was 18 years old.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I am 40, and I'm still on my healing journey.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: I do want to put I want to put some balance with that because I think some people might hear that and be like, well crap.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: If she if she can't be healed, then no one can.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, healing is a myth, I suppose.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to say.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like you never don't have CPTSD.
• 17:44
  unknown: Okay.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not, you're not gonna like, you're not gonna heal completely.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: You are gonna continue to have flashbacks, but they are going to be so significantly lessened and reduced and not have a grip on you.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you're gonna be able to know exactly what's happening and know what to do for yourself in those moments.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And not be feel out of control of that.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: That that it's it's gonna feel it's gonna be it's gonna be so much better.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not at the same place you were when you were 18.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: I did wasn't doing any grieving when I was 18.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was in a very intellectual space with my trauma.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I had trauma, I was being trained in trauma, like I have a PhD in this, you know, like I I knew when I was going to therapy and I was talking about things, but I no, I would say two years ago is when things really split open for me and I started being able to re- I it I tell it felt like I kind of woke up.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: There were enough events, and I was doing enough, you know, I was doing EMDR kind of right before that, and things just kind of split open for me.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I started seeing aspects of myself, and I was able to really feel how I was feeling, and I was able to, you know, notice I was having emotional flashbacks and I was able to start grieving.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know what's interesting is I also feel like in the course of our relationship and our friendship, I have felt closer to you over the past two to three years.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so yes, yes, I definitely feel better now than I did then.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: I just didn't want it to be like and she's still in treatment.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: You are hopeless.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no, not at all.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: We always have hope.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: So emotional flashbacks.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Emotional flashbacks are those sudden and sometimes prolonged regressions into childlike states of fear, helplessness, yeah, despair, depression, rage.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I'm I'm in my rage phase.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: I feel well, you know, so partially I feel sometimes like I'm in a bit of an emotional flashback because I'm feeling such intense anger that is disproportionate to what is happening around me.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know some of it is old.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just intense.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so, you know, people do not, they're not aware usually they're in an emotional flashback.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the beginning pieces for me is educating people about what an emotional flashback is and helping them to identify what their particular triggers are and what kinds of feelings arise, um, what their inner child looks like, right?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: What um what kinds of coping processes are they using now that are helpful versus harmful?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so in an emotional flashback, you see a lot of emotional flooding, but you also really you start to hear the narrative in the brain that is old and scripted.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I am broken, I am bad, something bad's gonna happen, I am unlovable, people hate me.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a whole bunch of that going on during flashbacks.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you could be completely functional and be in a flashback, and it feels like you are five.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you feel you can feel quite regressed.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then usually you see some of the four F behavior that Pete Walker talks about, and that I think I've mentioned on the show before that that flee, fight, freeze, or fawn behavior.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was just about to ask you if you could say the four F's.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: So freeze is dissociative, depressive.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um the flight is um hyperproductivity, super achievement focused, um, constant busyness, addictive behavior.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um fight is anger, aggression, but also control.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: I get this way when I get anxious sometimes.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: The need to control exceptional.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: The need to control others.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Micromanagement is a manifestation of the fight.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the fawn.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So the over responsibility for other people's feelings, people pleasing, over accommodating, subsequious, right?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like chameleon like behavior.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so you could literally be in a flashback for hours, weeks, months.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Some people live in a really functional space.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: With like trauma response upon trauma response attack, you know, kind of stuck jumping from one another.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're just sort of in a sort of constant state of this was me for a really long time.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was super, super achievement oriented, got a PhD, bought the house, did all the things I was supposed to do, could not relax.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: People pleasing, overaccommodating, taking care of everybody's emotions.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: This was just my without much awareness.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: I knew and I didn't know.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you have complex trauma, things you kind of know them and you don't know them because you have these parts that are just sort of managing and keeping you functioning, and you are not really aware of the complexity of the emotions and you know, you're not fully in touch with the traumatic feelings and memories.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it gets kind of segregated and split off.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Once people are in that, how do you as a provider kind of help pull them out and or settle them if that's happening?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, a lot of times I'm working um with the critic, with the critics.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love talking about the critic.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: The critic.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: You like the critic.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do about the critic?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I for some of my patients, when the critic emerges, it can, it's not a I don't perceive it to be a full split, but it can be like I'm talking to a very different version of the person that I work with.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um a hundred percent because they're in a regression, they're in a flashback.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you can't talk people out of the negativity.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Out, it's it's some it sometimes feels just not in touch with reality.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: They cannot see themselves outside of this lens.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: It can be that severe.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and so the critic though, I I think the reason I I like enjoy working and talking with that is because I maybe I take my license then to really challenge the critic back professionally.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: I will, oh I guess, well, I guess I'm talking to the critic.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, let's do this.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Almost kind of going clinically go to toe to toe, not in a combative sense.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know from a very relational standpoint, but I talk the text and the subtext.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: You talk the what do you mean?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I'm addressing the critic's concerns, but I'm also saying, oh, the critic is here.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: I see I'm I seem like I'm definitely talking to the critic right now.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Da-da-da.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like in that sense.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of externalize it.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: You sort of talk about it as a part.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that is really a very common technique, I think, for for many psychologists, but uh also internal family systems, like sort of you, you know, yes, when we're in an we want to sort of externalize and help patients understand when we're in a flashback and these the critic, you know, is talking, yeah, it's a part of them.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if the more we externalize it, the less hold it has.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you can start creating some space.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is a part of you, and you can choose whether you want to listen.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And also understand why do you think the critic is coming out right now?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: What's happening that you need to protect or defend?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because in internal family systems theory, the critic really developed um, lots of parts developed for trauma survivors to protect, to protect from rejection, to protect from abandonment, betrayal.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: We can be perfect.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Things go, you know, so the critic is like, you're terrible.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's trying to motivate you to do better.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: So we don't it has a purpose, it has a function, even if it's maladaptive currently.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, like I find that when when people are in a real regress state or in a flashback, I think talking from that lens feels a lot more helpful.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, when I'm talking to the critic, because um the patient can feel really threatened when you try to take away the critic.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: When you know, when when clinicians try to talk a patient out of their shame, um, especially in these regress states, it can backfire.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I do find that a lot of people who are in flashbacks are really receptive to this idea of this part's protected you.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Of course it's beating you up right now because you failed that test.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: It is so important to you that you do well.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because your worth is tied to achievement.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Of course you are in despair right now.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Of course your critic is beating you up.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but you don't deserve that.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: You're a good person and you have more worth.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it kind of and that it it seems to resonate.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: It does, yeah.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I say something almost verbatim and very similar in my work when I kind of talk to the critic, and I also I always like, you know, I liked your idea of because I struggle with this a little bit at times with certain folks, is like, well, the critic needs a new job, we gotta find the critic a new way to shift.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: And one of your great feedback or comments was you know, maybe the critic can switch into a creative or playful area.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe if we could step back a little bit and we can trust that adult me, me, adult patient, can in can encourage and love and motivate themselves enough to be able to get tasks done.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than you needing to come in and beat them up to do it.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: They can protect themselves or defend themselves or set boundaries.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: And definitely over time, right?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: The more treatment a patient does and the more the system trusts that the patient is an adult, then they can like relax a little bit.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that's part of healing.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so shrinking the critic, you know, there's some some certainly some cognitive behavioral elements to it.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's some sort of identifying its protectiveness and helping it shift roles and really empathizing with it.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: These are some techniques to use.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um Pete Walker talks a bit about turning your anger on the critic, which has never resonated with me as much.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: But for some other patients who have trouble accessing anger, they can just dish it back to the critic, right?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot talk to me that way.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: I will not allow you to beat me up like this.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like you are toxic.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think the patients that I work with some are still in the place of like they agree with the critic.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: That they are not worthy, that they that I they don't have value.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you're still working on externalizing, right?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Trying to figure out the function of this.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Whose script is this, sir?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is this yours or is this is this is this someone else's?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why that was funny to me.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because I will say I will be like kind of humorously, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, does this remind you of someone else?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: 9.8 out of 10 times are like my mother, my father, you know, my coach, my pastor, you whatever.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like, okay, yes, because that's what happens.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: We internalize the scripts and the narratives around us.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then they turn into these, these parts of us.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have to work to lessen it the hold, you know.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then, you know, otherwise, I'm really teaching a lot of um to to address the fear pieces and the endangerment attacks because on the flip side of the critic and the shame and the perfectionist and all of that stuff that comes up for people with CPTSD, there's a lot of endangerment attacks.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, something bad is going to happen.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: I need to manage everything all of the time so nothing bad happens.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, time urgency, that's a big one for me.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've got to be on time, I've got to be on track, and you've got to have a routine.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, so working with the body is really important with the flashback.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: So teaching skills that are going to activate the parasympathetic nervous system.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: And what does that look like exactly in your work?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think active like how do you would how would you suggest someone activates that?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I will usually talk to people about flashback management and I will even point them in the direction of Pete Walker because it's actually his he's developed flashback management steps.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so, you know, he really suggests, and this is this has been true for me, um, doing some progressive muscle relaxation.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yoga has been really very life-changing for me.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um deep breathing, box breathing, stretching.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of research about prolonged stretching, um, dance.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Dance is another one that sometimes can be very helpful.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's playful and creative.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I used to do with intro, it's interesting.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: You say that movement, you're talking about a lot of movement-related experiences.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, teenagers when you work with teens that are sometimes still in their trauma to a degree if they're in foster care or other environments where they're still exposed to potentially their folks that are challenging interpersonally, to put it minimally.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes the boys that I would work with, if they could get into football, they were legally and ethically allowed to sort of not pummel someone, but tackle or use their physical body in an aggressive manner.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a socially acceptable way to outlive anger.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's a socially acceptable way and aggression.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: And during football season, we had much less issues with problematic behavior because they had a way that they were socially acceptable way to express anger and rage.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: So this those kinds of things are would be part, kind of like we were talking about at the top of the episode about anger.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are in a flashback where there is a lot of rage, these are the kinds of things that help.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: We don't recommend tackling anyone unless you are allowed to and unless you're playing football.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Unless you're playing football.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: But finding a way to do that safely and and comfortably that is that is gonna release us is important.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, that's sort of flashback, and that's that's that's basic.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's more nuance to it, but I'm really addressing flashbacks.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm addressing the critic um at the beginning stages, um, if they're ready to work on their trauma, because your caveat earlier is some people are not ready to do specific work on their CPTSD because they are developing basic emotional vocabulary or they have they're in crisis and we need to do crisis management or, you know, right.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: So after kind of shrinking the critic and looking at the somatic aspects, what else would you look in terms of treatment or complex trauma?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we may, you know, can we can talk a little bit about thematic and then I think maybe we can come back and talk about the relational healing pieces and also the grief.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the grief work is a is a more advanced stage of trauma healing because a lot of people aren't in the grief yet, right?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: They can't.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: They can they can be, you know, sort of functioning and not really accessing trauma, or they can be um, you know, kind of in crisis management or we're reducing sort of risky behavior, a whole bunch of things, you know, before we get to real grief work.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, somatically, so you know, after the uh flashback management and working on the critic, um, somatic healing trauma affects the body in a lot of different ways.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'm not a somatic provider.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, neither am I.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I have done enough somatic work on myself, somatic experiencing, like I've had that treatment and uh other kinds of types that I can't.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's an amazing therapeutic invention.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's phenomenal.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I can incorporate elements, but if I feel like a patient really needs somatic work, then I would prefer to someone who does somatic experiencing.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but even more than that, there's a ton of stuff a person can do at home to sort of work on some of the somatic effects of trauma.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um, because of the constant adrenalization, because of the armoring that people do with complex trauma, because of the shallow breathing, the tightening of the digestive tract, there's a lot of those kinds of issues.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: So somatic experiencing could be a great treatment if you're wanting to work on some of the body stuff, but you can also work on some of the stuff that I mentioned with the emotional flashbacks more regularly.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Foam rolling, stretching, yoga, progressive muscle relaxation.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: These are things you might do when you're in a flashback, but also on a regular basis to help develop deep breathing.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: To help treat the armoring.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: The soften.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of thing.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think um there's so much to cover this topic.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're gonna, you know, come back to the other relational elements in the grief work in terms of CPTSD because I think it deserves so much time and attention.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, even our episodes don't this is obviously not supposed to be all encompassing cover.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is traumatic stress isn't it?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, there's a lot of nuance to the treatment of complex trauma.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we've just covered some of the ways that we that we conceptualize and treat complex trauma.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, I would say for this topic, there's more to come.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: But what are you taking away from today in terms of this review?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Not only being someone that treats complex trauma, but someone that has acknowledged having it too.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: I feel I I don't want to say I don't like saying this because is this the critic or is this you?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: What part?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: What part's what here?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Who do we have here?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Who do we have here?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a little anxiety, maybe, because I want to say that after today, I'm feeling a little bit more grateful for my healing journey and being this angry phase because I do I do feel like it represents progression.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: I do feel like it actually represents like healing in the right direction, even if I don't like it and I don't understand it.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so but I don't like saying that because tomorrow I might be really mad and gloomy and doomy and pessimistic, and I can't, I'm I can't apologize.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna apologize.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you should apologize.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: I can't this is gonna sound so weird, but I'm so happy that you feel grateful.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: That freaks me out.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because I love you.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's no that's normal.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is normal friendship.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: My trouble with vulnerability, guys.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna work on it.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna work on it.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Let's end there.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: I am happy at her gratitude, and she's not gonna stop me from feeling grateful for our friendship and from her and for her growth journey.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Let us know what you think in the comments.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental treatment.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we worked in or have worked for in the past.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: But if listening to this podcast has made you think, we'd really encourage you to seek out a mental health professional in your area.