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Making a Scene with Constance Wu · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe, and each week my guests
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: pretty This is pretty smart. There's been plenty of times
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: I've wanted to make a scene, say something, get mad,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: get loud, and I just don't because I am very
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: aware of the repercussions of it. But I'd like to
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: think that every time a woman has the courage to
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: make a scene, less women have to. The last time
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Golden Globe nominated actress Constance Wu made a scene, it
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: was twenty eighteen. She took to Twitter to react to
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: her sitcom Fresh Off the Boat, being renewed. She first
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: cryptically tweeted, so upset right now that I'm literally crying
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: of as. Then the Internet, the media, and even some
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: of her cast members came for her.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: So it seemed really insensitive of her to go out
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: there and do that.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: In short, Constance blew up her career, the career she
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: had tireusly worked for and sacrificed for fifteen years. It
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: all disappeared, and then she disappeared. Well that is until
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: one year ago when she re emerged with a new
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: memoir called Making a Scene. In it, she reveals the
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: complicated moments that we didn't see in public, the moments
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: that led to her eventual breakdown. She revisits some of
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: those painful and intimate chapters of her life, the ones
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: that reshaped her world. In today's episode.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Those were the scenes that made the girl. Was the
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: sexual harassment, the intimidation, the threats, the paranoia, all that.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Today, nearly a year after re emerging back into public life,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Constance has a new perspective.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I'd be lying if I said that there
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: weren't times where it hurts, where it adds to a
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: lot of confusion. But I think there's also a way
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: to look at it as an opportunity.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: And she also gives us a glimpse into her world
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: and her growing family with an announcement I was not expecting.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, I just breaking news. Nobody knew I had a son.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: I just said that on here today. A reminder that
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: sometimes your biggest challenges are the things that will change
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: you the most, and that oftentimes when we feel like
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: we are criticizing somebody, it should really be an invitation
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: to get curious instead making a scene. I was so
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: moved constance your stories. I feel like I wanted to
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: hold it close to my chest for some reason. It's
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: like close to my heart. I can imagine you felt
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: that way when writing it. But at the beginning you write,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: I stop thinking about the girl a scene and started
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: thinking about the scenes that made the girl. I was hooked.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Then I had chills. I love a sort of like
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: a pun. Why making a scene? How did you come
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: up with the title.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: It kind of just happened organically, which as I was
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: writing the essays in that book, I feel like the
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: essays crystallize. The second the title crystallized it it would all.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: That's when I knew something was working. And I noticed
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: a theme within most of these essays where it was
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: about women being perceived as making a scene because they
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: or myself had repressed our voices for so long that
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: it sort of bubbles up, you know, because it's going
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: to go somewhere, whether it's like you get a hernia
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: or you like have a moment on Twitter, which is
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: what I had. And I was writing one essay in
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: that that was about being raped and about how the
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: movie idea of rape is very violent when really it's
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: just someone having sex with you without your consent. And
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: how my version what happened to me is I just
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: said I am not ready to have sex with you.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I did not consent. I said no, and then he
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: just didn't listen. And I didn't physically fight back because well,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, A, he's twice my size, were in his apartment.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: You know, if I fight back, I'm going to get
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: beat up. And B I didn't want to make a scene.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: And how that sort of that idea of what it
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: means to make a scene, where it comes from how
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: we judge women based on that, instead of thinking of
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: everything that led her up to those choices. It's dehumanizing
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: to say this woman is making a scene instead of
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: being like, oh, something's happening here, that's out of character,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: that's out of whack. That must mean something's going on.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Let me investigate the person a little bit more rather
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: than immediately running to judgment. So it was just making
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: a scene. The idea of that was a recurring thing
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: and every essay that I wrote, and they're all very
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: personal essays, and so the title was just kind of
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: obvious to me.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I think personal is the word I thought of too,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: particularly the essay that you just spoke about, as well
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: as the one about your producer m which we'll talk
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: about a little bit more further. But I felt like
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: you could have left out a lot of details that
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: you intentionally put in that made it so much more
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: nuanced and complex. The producer that I work with for
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: the show called me and we both read your book,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: and she was like, I feel like every woman in
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: the world has had a moment that feels something like this. Yeah,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: and it's easier sometimes to just say nothing than to
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: quote unquote make a scene.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And also it's in many ways to say nothing,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: especially if you've gotten good at playing the game awarded
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: for it. So it's kind of like, but at what cost,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: which is why I think the cost is the perpetuation
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: of repression and misogyny and the patriarchy.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: You lose yourself. I felt every time I don't say something,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I lose a piece of my soul a little bit.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I know that sounds yeah, I feel like I lose
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: a piece of my soul.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: To not do that, I want to be careful to
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: not judge women who, for example, do not want to
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: talk about these things, because I always think of my sister,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: who I wrote this about in this book, how she's
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: an introvert and she's quieter, and there is a world
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: in which somebody might judge her for not being an activist,
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: for not speaking up. But really we shouldn't blame her.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: We should blame the system that puts her in that situation.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: But we're so quick, even within progressive feminist groups, to
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: lay the blame on the woman. So I want to
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: be careful that. I was, like, you know what, I
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: am a person who is uniquely extroverted and doesn't give
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: a fuck enough to talk about these things at the
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: risk of my reputation or my career. I'm actually genuinely
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: okay with that, when I know most people a lot
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: of people aren't. So if I actually am okay with it,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: then why don't I do that for people like my daughter,
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: my little sister, who that's not their natural voice. So yeah,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: it's a fine line, because at what point are you
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: a pushover or what point are you just a person
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: who's just a little bit more introverted and sensitive and
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: less aggressive. And how do we make sure that we
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: don't judge people like that too?
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: That's well said. I think everyone has to make that
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: choice for themselves. Yeah.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: I mean that's what true feminism is. It isn't the
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: stereotype Oh I'm pretty, my bra and I have armbit hair.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: It's making the choice for yourself about what you want
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: to be, who you want to be, and being allowed
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: to be that. It's just being a fully formed human being.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that not everybody knows about your time
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: in New York, how much you hustled, what you sacrificed
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: when you were auditioning. Mm hmm. I loved reading about
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: your time waitressing. You even did something that I think
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of actors reading this or listening to the
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: podcast will appreciate. You would put yourself on tape and
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: submit to things even if you weren't called for that casting.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's amazing.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I was really like on it. I was consumed with
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: and I've always been consumed with being an actor. Yeah,
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: I was hustling. Like if I would beg my agent
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: or manager please let them give me an audition, and
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: if they didn't, I'd be like, well, do you have
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: an other clients who are auditioning? Give me the sides,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: which is the script that you use for the audition.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: I'll put myself on tape send it to them, and
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: then if they didn't have the sides. There was even
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: a time where they're like, we don't have the sides.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: I made it up, your kids. I wrote my own
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: fucking script. Yeah, and I said, I'm like, this is
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: what I think the character would do. Let me just
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: send you a sample of what I did. I didn't
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: get it, but like, it's so funny. I talked to
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: young actors and they're like, ooh, but isn't that like
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: embarrassing or bad? And I'm like, I could see why
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: somebody might shame you for that. Fuck them, man, like
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: do it? What's the worst that could happen? No, Okay,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: they tried.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I thought was interesting, Is you even did
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: it for hustlers?
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I did do it for hustlers?
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you had quote unquote made it already.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was after crazy ritations. I did it for hustle.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: I put myself on tape.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: There's this word in Yiddish hutzpa, like set you as
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: such hutzpah. It's amazing I did, but I.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Also it's hut spot in terms of like doing it,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: but also I was in like my friend's ho house
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: and we did. So it's like I didn't have to.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Like it's not like huts but like skydiving huts, but
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: time of like it's just sort of like might argue.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: Yours was scarier than something else. Yeah, like emotional, Yeah, scary.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: But I did. Yeah, I did sent in my own,
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: not asked for audition tape for hustlers, even after crazy rigations,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: was a success.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: And it worked. Yeah, so you wrote, though I usually
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: take pride in my scrappiness, sometimes it feels unfair that
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: I've had to fight so hard when other people just
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: seem blessed. Oh yeah, you know those folks when they
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: walk into the room, the air changes. They are the
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: golden ones. They have the it factor. I never had.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I feel emotional almost reading that again, it's so interesting
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: because I think of you having it and so you didn't.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: You have met bradt I have?
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: You have? I have?
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, I met him once. I felt like when he
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: walked in there was a halo around him, did you Yes,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: there he has a thing. He has an inact.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: I get what you're saying. Yeah, but I think that
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: there's different types of charisma. Yeah, you know, like the Rock.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: I have not met him like big energy, he's like
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: the way at least in interviews, he's the same way
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: he is on TV. You have a different type of charisma,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: but to me, like you sparkle and I can't believe
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: you didn't feel that way.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: The type of chrism I feel I have is like
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: a familiarity, like I feel like I'm pretty good at
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: being friends with people, but like but like the golden
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: halo that Brad Pitt has when like when he enters
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: a room. I had not seen anything like that, and
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: I was like, this is That's what I'm talking about.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I get what you're saying. Do you feel like you
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: had to like work in a different way.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I definitely feel like I've had to be scrappy and
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: I feel like I've often been underestimated, honestly simply because
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: of my size or lack thereof. That's why that essay
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: is called Little Cassandra. It's about when I was auditioning
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: for a Greek play, and Greek plays are huge, right
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: the Orisaiyah and the director was like, Ooh, I don't
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: know what we're going to do with you. You can't
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: carry this big Greek emotion. I was like, fuck I can,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: and I used all that anger that I had when
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: he underestimated me and put it into my audition and
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: then I got the part. But some people they walk
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: in You're like, oh, they're the part, And I feel
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: like I've often had to prove myself, which makes me proud,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: but sometimes I'm like, h not fair.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I totally understand. I think a lot of people will
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: read that and feel it. Yeah, so you end up
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: moving to LA from New York. You want a fresh start.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: After a breakup. Yeah, that was sort of the in
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: theater that made me move to LA.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: And eventually you book Fresh off the Boat, which is
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: a life changing role totally. How old were you.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Think, I was thirty or thirty one.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: Maybe such a good time to book a role like that.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting time.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Did you feel like you could breathe a little bit like.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: No, I felt like less. I thought I could breathe
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: a little bit more financially, Yeah, but even then, I
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: had been scrappy and poor for so long that having
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: resources money it makes for the first several years of
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: it, it makes you more paranoid, I feel, because it's like
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: you didn't have it for so long that you're like
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: kind of scared it's going to go away, so you're
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: like clinging onto it. And same thing with career success.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: I was not able to breathe more. It made me
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: feel like, oh shit, I got a strike while the
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: iron it's hot, Like it took a long time for
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: me to be comfortable with. I guess career success financial success,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: rather than have it, caused me more paranoia, which seems counterintuitive,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: but that was my experience of it, which is why
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: I was so paranoid the first two years of that show,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: when I was withstanding a lot of harassment and threats
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: from a producer.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: So that's the part people don't know, which I think
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: is really I mean integral. But also so you book
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: crazy rich Asians and so these were two central, huge
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: moments for Asian American and Asian culture, which I think
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: matters in the story as well, because there's so much
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: pressure and a huge spotlight on you. So ABC renews
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Fresh off the Boat for season six, and a fan
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: tweeted that the pickup was quote great news. You reply, no,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: it's not, and then fucking how and and more right,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: I'm so upset right now, I'm literally crying. And people
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: thought you were ungrateful. Yeah, and little did they know
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: that you were being harassed on set.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: At that point. I wasn't. Actually I was only harassed
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: the first two years.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: But it had happened, like that had already transpired.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, So it was the build up of years of
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: trying to keep that quiet.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: So it was like the book is making a scene
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: because I repressed a lot of things before at this
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: for the sake of preserving the show's reputation. But yeah,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: those were the scenes that made the girl. Was the
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: sexual harassment, the intimidation, the threats, the paranoia. All that
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: happened in the first two seasons. People didn't know, but
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: you know, nothing's black and white. So yeah, I can
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: understand people reading that and thinking I was ungrateful. I
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: could understand how there was a piece of it that
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: was ungrateful. But it's not that simple.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: It's not the whole story.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: There's this writer, Elise Lunan, and she shared this in
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: a podcast. She said, it's important for all of us
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: to recognize the cultural pattern of women being brought down
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: who dare to be seen. It's effectively a shot across
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: the bow for the rest of us. It's a warning
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: shot of what happens when people pay attention to you.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: You become visible when you express yourself, yourself or gifts
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: to the world. We can say I don't have anything
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: to do with Megan Markle or Anne Hathaway, their celebrities,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: but in many ways it's the blueprint of persecution for
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: visible women. You were so persecuted. I don't think you
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: got your fair due, do you. No.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: But I don't think I'm unique in that aspect. I
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: think that happens to a lot of people, like you
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: were saying, Anne Hathaway, Megan Markle, women who are kind
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: of persecuted for things that aren't that bad. Like I
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: was talking to somebody who said something up Megan Market
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: the other day, like, oh, I just think that she's
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: an opportunist, And I'm like, okay, Like I guess me
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: putting those self tape auditions on tape when they didn't
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: even want them, I guess I'm an opportunist. True, Like
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: if she had done something like, you know, murdered children
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: or something, Okay, I get it. I get it if
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: you don't like her, But it's just this, like I
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: don't know, I just there's something I don't like about that,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: and I know it because I used to judge women
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: in that way too when I was younger and more insecure.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: I find myself even doing it now, and that's when
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I have to check myself.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: It's the second thought that matters, though, I think, because
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: I do it too.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: We all do it, and it's not our fault that
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: we do it, So you have to not beat yourself
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: up for it is a system that has been like
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: pounded into us since we were little girls.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: I felt your struggle, I felt your ambition and your hustle,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: and you talk about all of the things that you did,
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure you didn't talk about a lot of
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: the things that you did to get to this moment.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: There's a lot.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: I know there is. I know it. I get chills
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: talking about it because I have that ambition too. Yeah,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: I get I feel.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: Why is that a bad thing? Because they want us
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: to be like who me? Oh I was discovered in
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: the pizza parlor. I'm not like oh like I wasn't
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: trying to be anything. Oh who MEI like, it's.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Like not who me?
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Yes me, That's what I want people to say.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: But what does it feel like to work so hard
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: and sacrifice so much and have all of that change
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: in the matter of seconds.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: It the experience of that changes. You know, I'd be
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: lying if I said that there weren't times where it hurts,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: where it adds to a lot of confusion. But I
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: think there's also a way to look at it as
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: an opportunity and as sort of like a chance to
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: clarify your values.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: You kind of talk about it as a silent filter almost.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but not the optics of my life. Like if
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: somebody's gonna google me or look at my social media,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: they'd be like, oh, what happened to her? Blah blah blah.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: But the actual lived experience of my life has gotten
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: so much better. Yeah, but it's it wasn't without some
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: trying times, Like it still hurts when I think back
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: to that, not when I think back to the moments
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: where like I tweeted like fucking and sometimes I think
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: it's funny because I'm like, oh God, that's so me.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: But that's left reading and.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: It's so me, like in a bar talking to my
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: friends who understand the whole, They understand the scenes that
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: made the girl they know me as a person. But
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: to like some kid who's reading my tweets, who's like
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: ten years old, who wants to be a TV star.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: That sucks for them, And I have empathy for them too,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: so I get that right. So it's many things. It's funny,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: it's sad, it's clarifying, it's fruitful. But yeah, I mean,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: they all want to peg you down to one thing.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Is there anything that you wish people understood about your
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: story that you think gets missed?
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: No, I think if you had asked me that question
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: ten years ago, there would be a lot. But I
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: think part of the reason my life is so good
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: now it's the freedom from worrying about that perception being misinterpreted. Yeah,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: freeing yourself from that is really, really, really great. But
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: I wasn't always there, and I fall back into it sometimes,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: but it's gotten better.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I read this, closed the last page and thought, this
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: is a book about forgiveness. You forgive George? Who is
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: an ex that you write about?
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, George, these are all fake names, by the way
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: I have.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, George is probably wondering why you called him George
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: in real life. Oh no, he knows, Okay, I was.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I'm still in good terms with all my exes. And
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: I like, I sent them the essays just to be like, hey,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: is this okay? That was really want to be yeah.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: That was cool of you. Heads up.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: I'd want that somebody to do that to me. Yeah,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: And luckily they're all like cool really yeah, even my parents.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: That was what I was most nervous to send the
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: essay about my parents, the last one to send it
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: to them, to be like, I read some personal shit
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: in there. I was very nervous about that, but they did.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Both of them did ask me to change little things
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: but understandable. But I got to publish it, so it's good.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: So you forgive George, you forgave the married guy, you
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: forgave M who was the producer, producer, and then you
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: forgave yourself. Did I I felt like you did? Did
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: you not?
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: I think some days I do and some days I don't.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: I think I'm still so the days that you don't.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: What are you upset about?
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's gonna make me cry right now talking
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: about it. I think it is like you know that
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: ten eleven, twelve year old kid. Yeah, it's like you know.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: The Pleasure was an essay like where I was accused
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: of pleasures I'm like, you know, I forgive myself, but gosh,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I wish I could have done something or comforted that
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: girl or you know, not same thing with the girl
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: who was the woman who was sexually harassed on the
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: first couple of seasons fresh off the boat, I wish
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: I had said something. Since then, other women, other specifically
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Asian American actresses have come up to me and they've
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: been like, oh, M did that to me too. Wow,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: So I know that I'm not alone in that, and
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: that those are only the women who came up to me. Yeah,
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: like Madge, the ones that happened. M didn't do anything
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: quote unquote that bad to me, like but still like
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: that was his pattern. So imagine that. And when I
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: think about that and how me saying that could have
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: maybe prevented that from happening to other women, I feel
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: a lot of guilt for that. So sometimes the days
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: where I it's hard for me to forgive myself or
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: when I think of that, but then I have to remember,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: like I was also in a tough place too, you know,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: So so it changes. It changes. Some days I do
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: and some days I don't.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: You know, your essay about the stuff that's unspoken is
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: so hard to feel, and you did such an amazing
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: job articulating it. That's why my producer and I were
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: able to be like, oh me too.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think if you haven't experienced it, like
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: some men who have read my book and so, and
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I'm like, imagine that every single day. Imagine the mental
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: gymnastics I have to navigate around protecting this abuser's ego
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: so that I don't seem like I'm a bitch. But
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I don't give in to his sexual requests either. That
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: takes a lot of mental space. And what if I
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: used all that mental space for my fucking work instead?
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Wow, or to sleep or to sleep anything.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like, but it's hard to understand if
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: you haven't.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Gone through it. I call it invisible hours.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, invisible hours is good.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: So you said you try on empathy for different people
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: from your past. I've never heard anybody say that, because
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: I was thinking, like, you try on characters as an actor,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: But I've never thought about trying on empathy in your book.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: What chapter, I don't know which chapter.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: I know I do that, but I don't know if
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: I said those exact words. But yes, I oh, no,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: in the rape chapter. In the rape chapter, yeah, because
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: I have empathy for my rapist, which.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Is so fascinating, and you describe that in THEA and.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: For them, the sexual harasser of min And I think
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: that's why my book isn't as juicy as people want
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: it to be, because I don't villainize, and I don't
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: villainize my rapist. I have empathy for them.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Do you do that because you want people to have
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: empathy for you or is that your natural inclination.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: No, it's not my natural inclination. It's something that I've
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: developed over years because and here's my boyfriend even said like,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: they don't deserve it, and I'm like, yeah, I don't
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: do it for them, and do it for me because
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: I feel better when I'm not holding on to this resentment.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: I feel better and I don't blame myself when I think, Oh,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: what might have made this man defensive in this position?
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: They don't deserve it. That guy raped me, m sexually harassed,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: intimidated and threatened me and made my life a living
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: hell the first two years afresh off the boat. He
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: doesn't deserve my forgiveness, but I give it to him
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: because I deserve to have a peaceful heart. It's that
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: old saying, like having a grudge is like drinking poison
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: expecting the other person to die. Well, I think having
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: empathy is like drinking nectar for your own nourishment and
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: letting that person just be that person.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: You really actually helped me because I'm not great at forgiveness. Yeah,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: And I was thinking, like, when you start creating a
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: backstory for a character, you're thinking about what made this person?
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah them? Yeah, it's beautiful training it grows your own heart.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: So you don't do it because they deserve it, because
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: those fuckers don't. But you deserve to have a big,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: peaceful heart. We deserve it. So what's the best thing
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: we can do to grow our hearts without caring about
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Because he's got his own issues. He probably cries and
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: jerks off at the same time and takes a shit
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: at the same time. He's got his own issues. So
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: you know what, let's lets him do his own thing.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: What are we gonna do to grow our hearts? Not
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: because they deserve it, but because we deserve to have
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: peace to your heart, and for me, some people anger
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: and righteousness might grow their hearts for me, forgiveness and empathy,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: even when the fucker doesn't deserve it. It makes me feel
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: really good, so I do it for me.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Is there a moment that made you that maybe just
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: didn't make the book, but really shaped who you were
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: and who you are?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, I do think some of our most formative
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: years are when we're younger, and I do think there
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: are things that have happened when I'm older that should
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: have shaped me more. But honestly, I think the Pleasure
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: is an essay shaped me the most. I think it's
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: because it's that formative time. Eighth grade. I think for
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: some reason, whatever happens to you in eighth grade friggin
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: sticks with you. That's why there's that movie eighth Grade.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: It's like something about eighth grade.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Totally.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: But I do think there are moments that other people
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: would think would be more formative, like me living in
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: the Buddhist monastery, which was great. Yeah, not as formative
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: as eighth grade. Something about eighth grade, man, I think
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: we'll never get.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Over those, like we carry that piece for us.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something about eighth grade.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Agree. I love your big feelings in the book, Thank You.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: The world does not always love them. So thank you.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: I know, and I think I actually repress some of
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: mine because I know the world doesn't like them.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's why people hated Anne Hathaway when she
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: accepted her like Oscar, because she was having big feelings.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, like, so right, good for her. Don't
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: judge her and say, oh, I think she's being in sincere,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Like whatever, who the fuck cares? She's not doing anything bad, yes,
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: but people just have ideas.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: So you talk about love in a way I hadn't
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: heard anybody talk about before. You say, so this was
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: like your first big love, and you say it was
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: a love so strong it hurt to live our lives
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: in separate bodies.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, I remember that. That was twenty three also
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: a formative time.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: But how great that you got to experience a love
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: that freaking deep. My god, it's the best.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: It's the best.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, So big love. I loved how you talk about it.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: How many great loves do you think we get?
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: They say three?
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Do you believe them? Uh?
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Huh?
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: What? So? I feel like it could be as many
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: as you let yourself.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think there are a lot of little loves.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: But not big, great loves.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I don't think it's about the person. I
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: think it's about the time and life. I see that
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: like eighth grade, like the year twenty three when I
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: was dating Buck. I think at the very end of
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: that chapter, there's a line that a lot of people
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: respond to, which I say, there's a window in your
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: life when you're old enough for sex to not be
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: a new concept, but you're young enough to love without fear.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: And he and I found each other in that window.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I think if he and I saw each other today,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: like I think we'd be cool, but I think the
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: possibility of that love wouldn't be there just because it
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: was about the time in our lives. So that's why
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: I think it's probably three. But I don't know.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it was a choice or it
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: was a timing thing. But you didn't write about your
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: current partner in the book.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: That was a timing thing.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: That was a timing thing. Yeah, okay, because you write
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: about a lot of relationships and love that you have,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: which I love because I think they hold a mirror
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: up to us. Sometimes women in particular, I think, don't
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: want to write about men or their.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Love, or they only want to write about it, but
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: sometimes they don't want to because they fear they won't
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: be taken seriously. Is that what you're saying?
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: I think or they think that it's like not feminist,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: But in some way, I think our relationships really are
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: scenes that make the girl in so many ways.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I think the most feminisiesst thing to do is to
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: be yourself. And if that's what you want to talk about,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: go for it. But yeah, I started writing that book
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: at this point, got over eight years ago, and so
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: it was before you know, I met my partner, before
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: we were dating or any of that, and most of
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: it does focus on my childhood.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: To be honest, you said you wanted to share your
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: story because it might help someone with their own. Yeah,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: how specifically have people approached you about the book?
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: For starters, A lot of other women have told me
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: that M also sexually harassed them. It's been very disheartening
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: how a lot of Asian American men have reacted to it,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: but in terms of how women have reacted to it,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: it's been very heartening. I think I tried to not
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: make myself seem like I'm just this cool, likable person.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: I don't might trying to make myself seem unlikable, but
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I tried to make myself seem complex and human cause
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: that's the kind of pros I respond to. Yeah, and
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I think some people, some people don't like that. They
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: want the like, oh who mes story? So yeah, it's
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: been a mixed bag.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: You talk about that silent filter in terms of being
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: cast now, right, because the people that you're working with
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: really match your values so much more. Yeah, you said,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: I'm no longer hustling to be someone posting to prove something,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: striving to get somewhere. Yeah, and I love when you
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: talk about making art for you. You say there will
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: always be people who don't get it.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, cause if you're catering your work to the haters
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: or to like people don't get you, then your work
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: is just gonna become.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Nothing.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: The thing that's special is your point of view and
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: your voice. So if you're bending it or catering it
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: to please people, then the thing that was great about
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: it in the first place gets diluted or disappears.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: What kind of art do you want to make now?
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: I think I'm very much a kitchen sink drama type
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: of girl. I don't want big epics, I want small stories.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I say in the book, you know, the greatest happiness
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: to me is like my kid who's like almost three now,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Like seeing her at the breakfast table with her messy
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: hair and her pajamas on, or like holding space for
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: her big feelings rather than trying to bargain them away,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: or like navigate them, just holding space for them. And
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: I think those small human stories are what I've was
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: originally drawn to. And I got a little lost because
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: the fame machine was something I had never I'd always thought, oh,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: that looks cool, but then once you've been in it,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: it's a different experience. And I think some people really
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: thrive in that experience, and that's great. I think I've learned.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: I don't. I think like in my car essay, I
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: think I'm a I'm a Toyota Camry type girl, not
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: a Rolls Royce type girl.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: That is really interesting to come to.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: I think if I was in a Rolls Royce, I
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: would actually be more embarrassed, where some people if they
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: rolled up in a Toyota Camry, they'd be more embarrassed.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: I'm embarrassed to have like you will never see you
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: have never seen me, and you will never see me
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: at a New York Fashion Week fashion show. No cool
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: if other like if people are really into fashion, it's
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: just I just feel it just feels awkward. You want
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: to talk about somebody being insincere. I think the idea
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: of me doing a New York Fashion Week sitting in
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: the front row, or like me having a fancy car,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: that feels inauthentic to me.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Well, what's your relationship with fame now, because it's like
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: you're already famous. There's no putting the toothpaste back in
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: the tube with fame.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there is, girls, you think, Yeah, that's why they
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: call it the fifteen Minutes.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: No, you're not fifteen minutes. Crazy Rich Asians is everybody's
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: favorite film was No I'll Help You. My mom, like
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: she lives in the Midwest in Chicago, does not care
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: about anything I do. She's like, she watches Crazy Rich Asians.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: She's seen it like thirty times.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: It makes people so happy.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, I mean I'll never be able to
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: get back to my waitressing days totally. Like, I get that,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: But I can make choices now that align with you.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: My newfound knowledge of who I am, what I want,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: which is not fame of course, I do like having
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: money to not worry about stop, so I had to
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: think about that. But you know, most of the things
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I've chosen now have been like theater jobs or just
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: things that align more with my values, or if I
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: were to take a big movie, the schedule would be
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: in service of, like my family life.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: What would it feel like to be on the set
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: of Crazy Rich Asians the sequel? Now, it's cause you're
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: such a different person than when you film the first one.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: I made some really great friends on that set, like
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Nora Aquafina and I are good friends, and Jimmy and
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Henry and John and I and they've all been really
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: want Those people have been really wonderful to me. But
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: it would be different because, yeah, we've chosen different career paths.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: I don't think the path that I've chosen is the
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: one that most people would have imagined I would have chosen,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: but it is a choice. But then it would also
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: just be fun to just like do a scene with
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: me or again, like just because I fucking love her
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: and we love each other. But it would be different,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: like I can't go out and drink after a night's
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: work because I had kids. You know what I mean,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: so would be very different.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: So you dedicate the book to your daughter.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was before my son was born.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: So we need a second book, so we have a
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: second dedication.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, I just breaking news. Nobody knew I had
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: a son. I just said that on here.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Oh that's fine, thank you for sharing. Yeah, it's exciting
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: to have one of you.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, we were so shocked.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Did you not know till you gave birth? No?
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: No, I mean I knew from the blood test. But
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: even when they told me that, because my mom had
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: four girls, I was like, oh, I'm only gonna have girls.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: And then they were like, you're having a boy. I
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: was like, are you sure if.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: You feel prepared to be a boy mom, it's.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Still early on. So like, it feels unfair for me
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: to say like, oh, this is different because he's a boy.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of the differences I'm experiencing are
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: I'm like, he's just a different person. It's not because
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: of his sex. But also it's like it's our second kid,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: so we have less anxiety around it. We've done it before,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: we have the stuff, so it just feels like a
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: different kid, but not necessarily because of the sex of
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: the kid, but I don't know. It remains to be seen.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: It's still early. I mean, he's not he's still a
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: little nugget.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: It's exciting.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: So you dedicate the book to your daughter, and I
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: am as I was reading it, I imagine her picking
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: it up one day. There's so many stories about my
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: mom that I'm sure exists that I don't know about,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: and she's going to be able to read about your
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: head's face. So intimately, did you think about that when
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: you were writing it?
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Not when I was writing it. The writing will not
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: be good if you're thinking about that as you're writing.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: As you're writing. You need to be in the experience
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: when you're editing and when you're going through legal. Yes,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: you think about that kind of stuff. And my mom
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: was very worried for me.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: What do you mean?
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: She was like, Ah, your daughter's gonna read this someday.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: You sure you want her to know that you went
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: through all this? Maybe that's not good to know? And
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I think, I actually do. I
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: think me learning about my mom's difficult experiences really opened
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: up a new world for me that I did not
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: have appreciation for when I was younger, so I understand
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: her point of view and I listened to it, but
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I stick with mine.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: You have to write follow your core. Yeah, I was looking.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: I was in Chicago cleaning out my childhood room. When
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: I was looking at baby photos, I was looking at
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: myself as like an eight year old, and I got
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: so emotional for some reason. You write that essay about
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: plagiarism the eighth grade one. Yes, when you look at
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: a photo of yourself now as a seventh grader, eighth grader,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: do you feel like she would be proud of you?
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: When I remember who I was in eighth grade, I
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: think she might be a little bit judgy wudgie towards me,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: because I think that's how we teach girls to be sometimes.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Would have been proud of me in the height of
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: my crazy rigasians like success so interesting, Yeah, because I
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: think she didn't. That eighth grader doesn't know what that
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: feels like, that experience. She just knows what it looks
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: like from the magazines and from social media. Me, the
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: forty one year old, I know what it feels like
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: because it's different.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: But I really have this emotional reckoning. I feel like
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: you've been wise forever.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not wise, really, No, I'm dumb. Somebody, somebody
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: who's wise would not tweet fucking how on you know
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: about the renewal of her show. I think I've lost you.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Would had it. No.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: I have had a lot of therapy and I have
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of clarity. But I'm not wise. No, I'm
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: very foolish. And what a gift, What an opportunity to learn?
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I tell myself, I do a little rapid fire, great fun.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: I know I talk a lot, so it's good to
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: do some rap and shit.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: When was the last time you cried.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Like five ten minutes ago. I think it was, yeah,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: when you were talking about forgiveness.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Maybe I think something that Hollywood took from you, my
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: student loan debt, Something that Hollywood gave.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: You knowledge that fame is not for everyone.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: What's something you used to think people were exaggerating about
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: until you experienced it yourself.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Sleep deprivation in motherhood.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Don't tell me that it's that bad.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's also great, But it's yeah, it's a lot.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: What is a book that changed your life? Something you
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: think everybody should read?
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: The Neapologan Novels by Ellena Fronte.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: I've never heard of those.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Uh, They're fantastic, and I think every man and woman
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: should read them, especially men. Actually, even though it's a
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: female story, humanizes women in a way that is. Yeah,
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: the Neapolitan novels. Everybody should read those.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: What is the smartest decision you've ever made?
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Having a kid?
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: N having a kid? Yeah, you just mentioned faith. Did
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: you always have it or was it something that was
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: a crude?
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: I have an ongoing relationship with it. I have always
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: had it. I think I've directed it in different areas,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: whether it's religion or art, or friendship or higher powers,
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: what be. I think it's essential to our being. The
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: form it takes is not always helpful to people or society,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: but finding the right form of it for yourself. I
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: think this is a pretty It's like oxygen.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, we have a pretty smart question if
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: you wanna open it and choose whichever one.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: What is the best advice someone has given you and why.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: One time I had a therapist. I was talking about
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: this new friendship that I was happening, and for some reason,
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: I was like, I was being very honest in therapy,
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't know for some reason,
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: like what if we hang out and it's not fun
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: or like it's like the worst time, or he thinks
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: I'm like a loser or whatever. And this was friendship,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: not romance. What if it's like sucks? And she looked
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: at me and she goes so, and I was like.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: What do you mean?
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: So actually, okay, it's part of it. And I was like, oh, oh,
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: and that guy and I are like still best friends
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: to the today. It's funny. But I was like, I
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: really wanna be friends with him, but like, what if
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: what do you so?
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: So okay.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: So sometimes when I'm having fears about things and I'm like, oh,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: this is the worst outcome, then I say to myself, so, okay,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: I mean unless it's like an actual bad outcome, like oh,
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: you might lose your leg if you do that. Okay,
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: that's not so that's something Oh and the worst. When
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: I was younger, somebody once told me, and I at
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: the time I thought it was brilliant. Someone once told
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: me you could get whatever you want by appealing to
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: somebody's vanities. It's true, Wow, But is it kind and
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: is it human? And is it aligned with your values?
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: No?
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what I did my first years
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: afresh off the boat was I played the game with
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: my sexual harasser, and I'd be like, oh, you're such
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: a dick whatever to make him feel like he was
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: funny and like he was a man and whatever. I
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: was appealing to his insecurities, his vanities of being masculine, but.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: At what cost.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: So it was a piece of advice that I used
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: to think was good.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: But thank you for sharing that, Thank you for having me.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Thanks Constance. Yeah, and I want to thank the people
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: that make the show possible. Colleen O'Neill, Jill Salama, Karrie O'Keefe,
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: and Phil speed Tech. Okay, you know what time it is.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Today's a good day. To have a good day. I'll
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: see you next week.