Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #524 Jason Flom with Clemente Aguirre

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#524 Jason Flom with Clemente Aguirre · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Ben Bullet. You might know my podcast stuff
0:06
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. And if you like
0:09
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction, you'll see that we have a vibe in
0:12
Speaker 1: common in that we bring stories that need to be
0:15
Speaker 1: told to the wider world. And with our pal Jason
0:18
Speaker 1: out of town, the Lava for Good team invited me
0:21
Speaker 1: to introduce a few of my favorite episodes. So as
0:24
Speaker 1: a guy who lives in Georgia, I loved hearing a
0:27
Speaker 1: story so close to home, one that was also recorded
0:31
Speaker 1: very close to home. The interview we're about to hear
0:33
Speaker 1: took place at the twenty nineteen Innocence Network conference held
0:37
Speaker 1: here in Atlanta, and the guest Clemente Shorty. Again, his
0:42
Speaker 1: story is particularly resonant in this current political climate. He's
0:46
Speaker 1: a Honduran man who established himself in the US. He
0:50
Speaker 1: got wrongfully convicted of a double murder, and then he
0:53
Speaker 1: got sent to death row in Florida, only to later
0:57
Speaker 1: be exonerated by DNA evidence and the real killer's multiple
1:02
Speaker 1: out of court confessions. Shorty is off death row right
1:06
Speaker 1: now and out of prison, but as of this recording,
1:09
Speaker 1: he could still be deported back to Honduras, where honestly
1:13
Speaker 1: another death sentence awaits, this time at the hands of
1:17
Speaker 1: the gang he refused to join so many years ago.
1:20
Speaker 1: His story is an incredible one, and it's one that
1:23
Speaker 1: needs our attention right now. So let's hear from the
1:27
Speaker 1: man himself.
1:31
Speaker 2: Clemente Shorty Aguire grew up in Honduras, but in two
1:34
Speaker 2: thousand and one, when rival street gangs demanded that he
1:36
Speaker 2: pick aside or die, he found himself with no choice
1:39
Speaker 2: but to run. He escaped to the United States, crossing
1:42
Speaker 2: our southern border illegally, and ultimately he found work as
1:45
Speaker 2: a cook, living in Seminole County, Florida, in a trailer park,
1:48
Speaker 2: where he formed friendly ties with various neighbors. But on
1:52
Speaker 2: June seventeenth of two thousand and four, Shorty was hanging
1:55
Speaker 2: out into the wee hours of the morning when he
1:56
Speaker 2: went to his friend Cheryl Williams's trailer to grab a beer,
2:00
Speaker 2: and there he found himself inside of a gruesome crime scene.
2:04
Speaker 2: The trailer had been ransacked and was covered in blood.
2:07
Speaker 2: Cheryl and her mother Carol had been stabbed repeatedly and
2:10
Speaker 2: were dead. He checked the bodies for signs of life,
2:12
Speaker 2: thereby inadvertently tampering with the crime scene. Knowing that nothing
2:17
Speaker 2: would bring them back, and fearing deportation or worse, he
2:20
Speaker 2: chose to stay quiet initially, but later that day Clemente
2:23
Speaker 2: came forward about his discovery. His immigration status and unwitting
2:27
Speaker 2: crime scene tampering made him a prime suspect, and with
2:31
Speaker 2: the deadly combination of an ineffective public defender and the
2:34
Speaker 2: prosecution's tunnel vision, Clemente was convicted and sent to death row.
2:39
Speaker 2: In this episode, recorded at the Innocent Network conference in Atlanta,
2:42
Speaker 2: we speak with Clemente Shortia Giri and one of his
2:45
Speaker 2: lead post conviction attorneys, Maria Deliberado, who, along with a
2:49
Speaker 2: list of mostly pro bono private council would properly reinvestigate
2:52
Speaker 2: the crime and test the one hundred and ninety seven
2:54
Speaker 2: pieces of crime scene evidence that had never been tested
2:57
Speaker 2: for DNA. Ultimately excluding they even found new evidence that
3:02
Speaker 2: would lead to the identity of the woman who was
3:04
Speaker 2: almost certainly the true perpetrator and who confessed to the
3:08
Speaker 2: crime on numerous occasions, Cheryl's own daughter, Samantha Williams. Shorty
3:13
Speaker 2: spent over fourteen long years in prison, most of it
3:16
Speaker 2: on death row, for a crime he simply did not
3:19
Speaker 2: commit This is wrongful Conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction.
3:30
Speaker 2: You can listen to this and all the Lava for
3:32
Speaker 2: Good podcasts one week early and ed free by subscribing
3:35
Speaker 2: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back
3:45
Speaker 2: to Wrongful Conviction. Today's show is going to take you
3:49
Speaker 2: on a journey that you will probably never forget, and
3:54
Speaker 2: not because of anything I'm going to say, but because
3:57
Speaker 2: of the story you're going to hear. And today we
4:00
Speaker 2: have as our very special guest, Clemente aka Shorty Agere
4:08
Speaker 2: from Honduras, right, who was wrongfully convicted in Florida the
4:14
Speaker 2: double murder and who served fourteen years and four months
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Speaker 2: on death row. Shorty, welcome to rofl Conviction.
4:21
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
4:22
Speaker 2: As I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm
4:24
Speaker 2: happy you're here. So you know how that and with
4:27
Speaker 2: him is one of his incredible we'll just call it
4:30
Speaker 2: what it is, dream team of lawyers. Maria Deliberado, which
4:34
Speaker 2: is a great name for lawyer, by the way, not
4:37
Speaker 2: for nothing. It's perfect and so Maria, welcome to rofl Conviction.
4:42
Speaker 4: Thank you, happy to be here.
4:44
Speaker 2: So Shorty, you were you were sort of a star
4:47
Speaker 2: in your native country, right, I guess.
4:50
Speaker 3: So you can say that I was very likable, friendly
4:55
Speaker 3: play soccer when I'm singing competition representing in this.
5:00
Speaker 2: I was told it was like the American Idol of Honduras.
5:03
Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah?
5:04
Speaker 3: I were called championships and it was between the school
5:07
Speaker 3: so it was knowledge, it was dancing, and it was singing.
5:11
Speaker 3: So I performed I and I want the first place?
5:15
Speaker 2: Wow? And how old were you?
5:16
Speaker 3: I was ten years old?
5:17
Speaker 2: Ten years old, so amazing start to a crazy journey.
5:21
Speaker 2: And is it true that as a result of you
5:24
Speaker 2: winning this competition, the gang's kind of left you alone
5:27
Speaker 2: for a while, right, for.
5:28
Speaker 3: A little bit, since Sia was going to school those times,
5:33
Speaker 3: it really wasn't di Stronos. Again, in that period of
5:36
Speaker 3: time when growing up and going to high school, I
5:39
Speaker 3: was well known because I played soccer there. But my
5:43
Speaker 3: problem was I live in a neighborhood with a rival
5:46
Speaker 3: game and I play and go to school with the
5:50
Speaker 3: other gang high power off. So it was very controversial
5:54
Speaker 3: because one would say I belonged to one and the
5:57
Speaker 3: other one would say I belonged to the other one,
5:58
Speaker 3: which it wasn't the case.
6:00
Speaker 2: And in fact, you were able to belong to neither
6:02
Speaker 2: of them because of the status that you enjoyed being
6:05
Speaker 2: sort of this celebrity in your area.
6:07
Speaker 3: Right basically, and because my mother too, she didn't play,
6:11
Speaker 3: and I have this select group of friends. It was
6:13
Speaker 3: seven of us. It didn't attract to us anything about
6:17
Speaker 3: no game at all.
6:18
Speaker 2: But then, as I understand it, when you got a
6:21
Speaker 2: little older the gangs, you were going to join the
6:23
Speaker 2: gang or get killed basically.
6:25
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, they told me they weren't playing. I was
6:28
Speaker 3: harassed and put guns in a face. I live in
6:33
Speaker 3: a neighborhood full of MS thirteens, and I got to
6:38
Speaker 3: go to school where the eighteens lived. So when I
6:43
Speaker 3: get out of the territory from the thirteens, the eighties
6:46
Speaker 3: grabbed me and made me undress in public to see
6:50
Speaker 3: if I didn't have tattoos belonging to the other game.
6:54
Speaker 2: Ultimately, you decided you had to leave because your life
6:57
Speaker 2: was in danger. Right, But what was it that made
6:59
Speaker 2: you Because that's a big step to leave your country,
7:02
Speaker 2: And it's a very important story to tell right now,
7:05
Speaker 2: especially right with what's going on in this country. Because
7:07
Speaker 2: you had a crazy journey ahead of you. But what
7:09
Speaker 2: was it that happened.
7:10
Speaker 3: Well, it was in two thousand and one January of
7:16
Speaker 3: February around there. I was with my Beyonce to be
7:20
Speaker 3: at a moment and the taxi pull up in front
7:24
Speaker 3: of my house. I'm sitting down outside and they got
7:29
Speaker 3: this raincoach, this long rail black coat and put an
7:33
Speaker 3: a K forty seven and put it in my face.
7:36
Speaker 3: The drivers step down and say, we ain't playing no more. TikTok, TikTok.
7:45
Speaker 3: In that particular moment in time, my mom came out
7:47
Speaker 3: at the door and say what you're doing? I said, Mom,
7:52
Speaker 3: go inside? What good doe? She is out here and
7:55
Speaker 3: I got a gon to my pace and my girlfriend
7:57
Speaker 3: is holding me for their life. I'm like home down.
8:01
Speaker 3: So they left. And then you say, TikTok TikTok mean
8:04
Speaker 3: the clock is running. You need to tie up and
8:07
Speaker 3: join all else. And December, a few months back, they
8:12
Speaker 3: killed one of my best friends because he didn't want
8:14
Speaker 3: to join AH. They killed him on December twenty, two thousand,
8:23
Speaker 3: So it was very very scary. My mother said, you
8:28
Speaker 3: go to your grandma. They sent me to Nicarawa and
8:31
Speaker 3: then Nicaragua is no place to live. It's like it's
8:35
Speaker 3: more poverty. They wasn't Honduras. So in two thousand and two,
8:39
Speaker 3: my sisters came from the United States already with her residency,
8:42
Speaker 3: and we went from there. I need to come to
8:44
Speaker 3: the United States. I cannot live in Nicarada for poverty.
8:47
Speaker 3: I cannot live in my native country because if I
8:50
Speaker 3: don't join again, they will kill me. So the only
8:54
Speaker 3: way I got out of here is go to the
8:57
Speaker 3: United States.
9:00
Speaker 2: Addy, everything you've been through is enough for someone to
9:02
Speaker 2: go through. But this isn't even the beginning. How did
9:05
Speaker 2: you get from Nicaragua all the way to eventually swimming
9:09
Speaker 2: across the Rio Grande.
9:10
Speaker 3: I came to Mexico and I buy some papers and
9:15
Speaker 3: I learned a national anthem of Mexico and history. I
9:20
Speaker 3: lived there for a couple of months, and I flew
9:24
Speaker 3: to Mexico City and there to New Laredo, and from
9:28
Speaker 3: there I went to a bar where when I got in,
9:32
Speaker 3: there as this coyot. Back then it was coyot. You say,
9:36
Speaker 3: it was no cartels and stuff like that, passing people
9:40
Speaker 3: and these coyote is to say, okay, you have sixteen
9:42
Speaker 3: hundred dollars on you. No, But I can call. So
9:47
Speaker 3: we arranged that here is going to pass me through
9:50
Speaker 3: all the way to Laredo, Texas. So he wanted me
9:53
Speaker 3: to swing with this the did they go inside the
9:56
Speaker 3: tire like inner two right, So because he asking me,
10:01
Speaker 3: can you swim? And this moment in time, I feel
10:04
Speaker 3: like I'm the micro fellow the river. I didn't know
10:08
Speaker 3: how big real ground there really was. You see, I'm
10:12
Speaker 3: picturing a river that is just like my grandma.
10:15
Speaker 2: It's like a stream.
10:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's something that you can pass in
10:18
Speaker 3: two minutes. I never thought I'm gonna take me seventeen
10:21
Speaker 3: minutes almost to pass the river across that I almost drowned.
10:24
Speaker 3: And you know, so he told us to take the
10:29
Speaker 3: close off, so we did, but we keep the underwear on.
10:33
Speaker 3: When he turned back and like, what you're doing. This
10:36
Speaker 3: isn't no gay shit, teed you underwere off because when
10:39
Speaker 3: you run, you need to be dry. If you wet,
10:43
Speaker 3: it's gonna it's gonna hurt you and it's gonna slow
10:46
Speaker 3: you down. Believe me, I'm doing this for a long time.
10:49
Speaker 3: So we did. Put it in a plastic bag, put
10:51
Speaker 3: in my mouth, start swimming. We make it to the
10:55
Speaker 3: other side. Somehow, God only he could help me to
10:58
Speaker 3: pass through that river because it was strong, and we'd
11:03
Speaker 3: write off. He say, every paper that you have, every
11:06
Speaker 3: picture that you have, throw it away, every money that
11:09
Speaker 3: you have, throw it away. You cannot bring anything with
11:13
Speaker 3: you to the United States unless it's American dollars. I
11:16
Speaker 3: didn't have any American dollars, so you know, it was
11:19
Speaker 3: fifty pests of Mexico. So I threw it away, and
11:23
Speaker 3: he said, when I tell you so, follow me and run.
11:27
Speaker 3: When we make it to the other side, it was
11:29
Speaker 3: like ninety five people in there, you know, females, men,
11:32
Speaker 3: you own, people from Ecuador, Columbia, Costa Rica, you name it.
11:36
Speaker 3: So we saw immigration car pass by, and then another
11:41
Speaker 3: one and you may say, I ain't waiting here. We're
11:44
Speaker 3: taken off. So I'm taking after him because he got
11:48
Speaker 3: my money. So I'm thinking I cannot let him go
11:51
Speaker 3: away with my money. You know, how am I going
11:54
Speaker 3: to make it to the other side. And this moment
11:56
Speaker 3: in time, I'm in the United States, but I haven't
11:58
Speaker 3: made it to civilization yet. With the off running, I
12:01
Speaker 3: wasn't thirty second and we hear helicopters, police cars, dogs
12:06
Speaker 3: and sirens saying stop, stop, but we're going to shoot.
12:10
Speaker 3: We hear some shots at this moment in time, everybody
12:13
Speaker 3: has take off running two and I'm running right next
12:16
Speaker 3: to this guy. So I'm running and I'm asking him
12:20
Speaker 3: where to where to? He didn't tell me where to
12:24
Speaker 3: because I think I can run him. I really believe
12:26
Speaker 3: I can run him. I'm so desperate to pass back.
12:29
Speaker 3: So it's some shots. I don't think they were shouting
12:31
Speaker 3: at us. I think they were shouting to the airth
12:33
Speaker 3: so people get scared or whatever. But that's all I
12:36
Speaker 3: hear in my neighborhood. So they really didn't call me anymore.
12:39
Speaker 3: It was I'm so used to or I was so
12:41
Speaker 3: used to. We make it to the fence, and by
12:46
Speaker 3: the time we're going to jump the fence, I used
12:48
Speaker 3: to feel this hand in my hand and say, senor
12:51
Speaker 3: please my son. It was this woman running next to
12:54
Speaker 3: me with the child in her hand. So I grabbed
12:57
Speaker 3: the kid, I give it to the next guy. I
12:59
Speaker 3: push her up, and then I jumped. We went to
13:01
Speaker 3: a house call my sister went to Houston. From Houston,
13:06
Speaker 3: came to my sister house March eighteen, six fifteen in
13:10
Speaker 3: the morning. Three months sixteen day after I was out
13:13
Speaker 3: of my house.
13:15
Speaker 2: Three months and sixteen days starting in Nicarago.
13:17
Speaker 3: Right, started from Honduras January second, all the way to
13:21
Speaker 3: March eighteen, two thousand and three.
13:23
Speaker 2: And you ended up in Florida in a little town.
13:25
Speaker 3: Right, yes, and altamund spring.
13:28
Speaker 2: So you end up in Florida. You got a job, right?
13:31
Speaker 3: Yes. My boy saw me courting lawn and shaving some
13:36
Speaker 3: kind of palms, and he led the way I work,
13:38
Speaker 3: so he offered me a job as a discwatcher dishes
13:42
Speaker 3: for a couple of months. And one day the cooks
13:45
Speaker 3: were really busy, so my mom teached me how to cooks.
13:49
Speaker 3: And I was six seven years old and everybody was busy,
13:53
Speaker 3: and they saw me cooking for me. So my boss
13:58
Speaker 3: saw and say, oh, okay, so you can cut, you
14:04
Speaker 3: can prep. I think you're going to be good in
14:08
Speaker 3: the prep line. So they may may do salads, bread
14:12
Speaker 3: and prep everything for the line.
14:17
Speaker 2: So now you're moving up in the world a little
14:19
Speaker 2: bit at a time, right, going from the cutting trees
14:21
Speaker 2: or whatever to the to the kitchen and now doing
14:24
Speaker 2: the prep work and starting to use your skills that
14:27
Speaker 2: you had developed as a cook. So things are looking
14:31
Speaker 2: up right right? And where were you living?
14:34
Speaker 3: I moved from my sister and Altimo Sprinto Longwood in
14:37
Speaker 3: the trailer park in forty four.
14:41
Speaker 2: And the trailer park is a very important role in
14:44
Speaker 2: the story. This is where this shit really hits the fan. Maria,
14:48
Speaker 2: do you want to sort of set the table here,
14:49
Speaker 2: because you've worked on this case for ten years, you
14:52
Speaker 2: know every single detail of what happened.
14:55
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
14:56
Speaker 5: I mean I don't even really know where to start at.
15:00
Speaker 5: I mean I used to be a prosecutor actually before
15:01
Speaker 5: I did criminal defense thirteen years ago. And so from
15:05
Speaker 5: that perspective getting this case, the fact that they saw
15:10
Speaker 5: him as the suspect shut their eyes to any possible
15:13
Speaker 5: other alternative is to me the biggest travesty here. But
15:17
Speaker 5: I'll sort of set the stage, I guess in the
15:19
Speaker 5: sense of he was living next door to the victims.
15:21
Speaker 4: It was a.
15:22
Speaker 5: Trailer part on Vagabond Way, and that was the name
15:24
Speaker 5: of the street, and he had socialized with them on
15:28
Speaker 5: more than one occasion.
15:30
Speaker 2: And this was a woman, her mother and her daughter
15:32
Speaker 2: living together in this trailer.
15:34
Speaker 5: That's correct, Yes, And Clemente lived with two other men
15:38
Speaker 5: about his age. They were both cousins, and so they
15:42
Speaker 5: were about the same age as the daughter and her
15:44
Speaker 5: brother also lived in the trailer for periods of time,
15:47
Speaker 5: so sort of all people of his age Clemente at
15:50
Speaker 5: the time. Obviously you can hear him today speaking English.
15:52
Speaker 5: He didn't speak any English back then. He taught himself
15:55
Speaker 5: English in prison, which is a great story that he
15:58
Speaker 5: does need to tell at some point point. How he
16:00
Speaker 5: taught himself English. It's one of my favorite stories that
16:03
Speaker 5: he tells. But he didn't speak any English then, but
16:05
Speaker 5: you know, he was able to communicate enough with them.
16:08
Speaker 5: They shared parties, they shared drinks, sort of a friendly
16:11
Speaker 5: neighborhood scene. The day that he was arrested, the mother
16:17
Speaker 5: and grandmother were killed, and the morning that their bodies
16:21
Speaker 5: were discovered, Monday had gone there in the morning, as
16:25
Speaker 5: he often did. He had been out with friends the
16:27
Speaker 5: night before. They always were known to have lots and
16:30
Speaker 5: lots of beer. If you look at the crime scene video,
16:32
Speaker 5: I mean there was just thousands and thousands of cans.
16:35
Speaker 5: And in Florida, alcohol is sold in all the grocery stores,
16:38
Speaker 5: but not until certain hours. So the grocery store wasn't
16:41
Speaker 5: open yet, and Clemente was a you know, in his
16:44
Speaker 5: early twenties. We can all remember what it's like to
16:46
Speaker 5: be able to party all night in your early twenties.
16:48
Speaker 5: And he had finished a hard day's work and was
16:51
Speaker 5: letting this with some friends and wanted to keep the
16:53
Speaker 5: party going. So he had just gone over there for
16:56
Speaker 5: a beer, as he had done many times. They had
16:58
Speaker 5: an open door policy.
17:00
Speaker 2: Let's turn over to you a climate day, because this
17:02
Speaker 2: is such a nightmare. I mean, I've told your story
17:04
Speaker 2: so many times, but you actually lived it. So can
17:07
Speaker 2: you take us back to that day.
17:09
Speaker 3: I've been drinking all day, I'm going to go home,
17:12
Speaker 3: and I went home, but I want another beer, so
17:14
Speaker 3: I went inside and I didn't find it. So it's
17:16
Speaker 3: why I wait until daytime to go to the next
17:19
Speaker 3: door and ask for a beer, like I had done
17:21
Speaker 3: dozens of time before.
17:22
Speaker 2: What time was it when you went over to It.
17:24
Speaker 3: Was like six something in the morning.
17:25
Speaker 2: Six in the morning, right, And so you went over
17:28
Speaker 2: there as you've done so many times, to scoop up
17:30
Speaker 2: a few more beers whatever? Right, What did you encounter
17:33
Speaker 2: when you got there?
17:35
Speaker 3: I turn knocked the door, but when I touch it,
17:38
Speaker 3: push open, But it didn't open all the way. It's
17:42
Speaker 3: strange because I've been in the house. I mean, if
17:45
Speaker 3: I want to give you a number over seven hundred times, right,
17:49
Speaker 3: So I know that door opened all the way and
17:53
Speaker 3: this time didn't. So I push it and it it
17:58
Speaker 3: didn't go further than was So I look, it was
18:03
Speaker 3: like a little window, and I saw Cherry Williams there body.
18:10
Speaker 2: This was the mom.
18:11
Speaker 3: That was the mother, Yes, Samantha's mother, yes, and Carol daughter.
18:16
Speaker 2: So you saw the body like, so that's why they
18:18
Speaker 2: couldn't open the door because the body was blocking.
18:20
Speaker 3: But it was blocking it, yes, sir.
18:22
Speaker 2: Right, and so now you see the body. But is
18:24
Speaker 2: there blood everywhere? Or what's the first thing that you.
18:27
Speaker 3: Her body is there? I just jump immediately inside without
18:32
Speaker 3: thinking right, and she was too close to by the door,
18:36
Speaker 3: so I had to close the door and touch her
18:40
Speaker 3: dress looking for a pose. So I said, maybe I'm
18:42
Speaker 3: too drunk that I don't feel it. So I picked
18:45
Speaker 3: her up and put it on the top of my
18:47
Speaker 3: legs into her neck because in the position she was,
18:49
Speaker 3: I couldn't touch her neck. And a moment and asked
18:53
Speaker 3: her to wake up, and she didn't.
18:57
Speaker 2: At this point, did you see there was blood and
18:59
Speaker 2: there was.
18:59
Speaker 3: Yes everywhere, and now it was like a horror movie scene.
19:04
Speaker 3: So I'm asking somebody here, and I find the grandmother
19:12
Speaker 3: of her wheelchair almost under the table, so I want
19:16
Speaker 3: to touch her too. She was dead, and I heard
19:19
Speaker 3: this noise and I'm asking somebody here. And with that,
19:24
Speaker 3: I walked in the house and my footprints were there,
19:26
Speaker 3: and it was it was crazy.
19:29
Speaker 2: You found the murder weapon.
19:30
Speaker 3: Right, I did? I did. I saw it when I
19:32
Speaker 3: saw the first victim. It was on the top of
19:35
Speaker 3: a beer box, but I didn't touch it. Then I
19:39
Speaker 3: touched until I heard the noise. Later I found out
19:42
Speaker 3: it was a dog there. But I know, I'm crazy.
19:45
Speaker 3: I heard the noise. So anyway, I went and grabbed
19:49
Speaker 3: a knife like like a domas and uh, asking somebody here,
19:57
Speaker 3: And I walked and I went to someon a bedroom
20:01
Speaker 3: and everything was everywhere in the house. Chair will flowed down,
20:07
Speaker 3: clothes was everywhere. Everything was like a like a Hura
20:11
Speaker 3: camp passed by there and then I walked to the
20:14
Speaker 3: next room, but I think went in there because I
20:18
Speaker 3: found Cherry already. So I said, oh my god, what
20:22
Speaker 3: am I going to do? So I took off running.
20:29
Speaker 3: They got running again, This.
20:40
Speaker 2: Is a really bad scenario on every level. I mean,
20:42
Speaker 2: you've got now the murder victim's blood on you, right,
20:46
Speaker 2: because you've been trying to help them, trying to check
20:48
Speaker 2: and see if they're alive. Obviously that was hopeless because
20:51
Speaker 2: they were dead. You've got your fingerprints on the knife
20:56
Speaker 2: right because you picked up the pick up. Yet, I mean,
21:00
Speaker 2: it couldn't be any worse. You can't make it harder
21:02
Speaker 2: for your lawyers, right in this case. I mean, this
21:04
Speaker 2: is circumstantial levelis it doesn't get much worse than that.
21:08
Speaker 2: And I'm sure when it eventually came to your arrest,
21:11
Speaker 2: they must have looked at it like, okay, well, so
21:13
Speaker 2: you don't really have to work too hard on this one.
21:15
Speaker 2: We got this guy dead to rights, Well what did
21:18
Speaker 2: you do? So? Now you ran? Where did you run too?
21:21
Speaker 3: I ran to my house. I'm debating. Am I going
21:26
Speaker 3: to call the policeman? And the person I'm debating is
21:31
Speaker 3: I know the police officer arrest you, they call immigration
21:36
Speaker 3: on you. It's a fact, So they did. I mean,
21:45
Speaker 3: and now I'm going to be deported for it, So
21:48
Speaker 3: I know I didn't do nothing wrong, even though everything
21:51
Speaker 3: sounds wrong so far. I didn't kill nobody anyway. So
21:57
Speaker 3: I took a shower and I'm like, I can't copolice.
22:01
Speaker 3: I decided against it because I don't want to be deported.
22:04
Speaker 3: It was my fear. It was my fear, and legitn't
22:08
Speaker 3: of fear because I'm running from my life. You know,
22:12
Speaker 3: I'm running for my life. I don't want to be
22:16
Speaker 3: killed in my country because I don't want to be
22:19
Speaker 3: a criminal.
22:21
Speaker 2: Right, What an irony? Right? You were running away from
22:24
Speaker 2: the criminals to come here to start a better life,
22:27
Speaker 2: and now now you're going to be accused of a
22:29
Speaker 2: crime that you didn't commit in the first place. And
22:32
Speaker 2: the options are all bad. Right, You're either going to
22:34
Speaker 2: go and get deported or you're going to get convicted.
22:38
Speaker 2: I mean you must have known as well that things
22:39
Speaker 2: were looking pretty bad. If you call the police, the
22:41
Speaker 2: first person they're going to suspect. We know that in general,
22:44
Speaker 2: in many cases anyway, the person who finds the body
22:47
Speaker 2: is the person they usually.
22:49
Speaker 3: But honestly speaking, I wasn't afraid they are going to
22:53
Speaker 3: be accused of the murder. I really wasn't, because I
22:57
Speaker 3: know I didn't do it. I was more afraid than if.
23:02
Speaker 2: So what happened for you, sure.
23:04
Speaker 4: So, I mean he can tell it as well.
23:06
Speaker 5: But the police eventually came because Samantha's boyfriend, which we'll
23:10
Speaker 5: later get to in more detail, actually was told by
23:13
Speaker 5: Samantha to come to the house that morning to get
23:15
Speaker 5: her laundry out of the dryer was the purported reason,
23:18
Speaker 5: or out of the washer, and to check on her
23:20
Speaker 5: mom and grandmother because she had a bad feeling. So
23:24
Speaker 5: he comes to the scene about nine am. He finds
23:27
Speaker 5: about easy of course, calls nine one one, and then
23:30
Speaker 5: the police come. So by a couple of hours go by,
23:33
Speaker 5: the police are there and you know, normally they're knocking
23:35
Speaker 5: the canvassing the neighborhood. So they knock on the door
23:38
Speaker 5: of Clemente's trailer, and first knock on the door, you know,
23:42
Speaker 5: they didn't. They just said we don't.
23:43
Speaker 3: Know anything, We don't know anything.
23:45
Speaker 5: And the police that knocked on his door, nobody spoke Spanish,
23:48
Speaker 5: so they were all English speaking, and everybody in Clemente's
23:50
Speaker 5: house then only spoke Spanish, so there's also a language barrier.
23:53
Speaker 5: And then later in the day, I mean, Clemente can
23:56
Speaker 5: tell you why he felt compelled to come forward and
23:58
Speaker 5: then sort of have that back out on him. When
24:00
Speaker 5: he came forward and tried to tell what happened as
24:03
Speaker 5: you said, they immediately were like, great, we've got our guy,
24:07
Speaker 5: and they just started accusing him of murder pretty immediately
24:11
Speaker 5: and threatening him. There was a female Spanish speaking detective
24:15
Speaker 5: finally who came unseen, and Colemente wanted to talk to her.
24:19
Speaker 5: He felt like he could trust her with the full story.
24:22
Speaker 3: I came forward. I say, this is the best country
24:24
Speaker 3: in the world. I'm telling the truth. But they're going
24:26
Speaker 3: to investigate and they're going to find out the truth eventually.
24:31
Speaker 3: So I went and I say I found in it,
24:33
Speaker 3: you know. And soon I say that I need to
24:36
Speaker 3: speak with somebody who Spanish, and it was two people
24:40
Speaker 3: behind her telling her get him getting When I asked
24:45
Speaker 3: her to talk alone, the investigator told me if you
24:50
Speaker 3: touch her, I'm fuck you up. I don't know what
24:54
Speaker 3: that world mean, but the face that he put in
24:56
Speaker 3: my face told me everything I need to know. And
25:00
Speaker 3: I'm looking crazy and I say, no, no, I'm not
25:05
Speaker 3: going to do anything.
25:06
Speaker 5: It also probably should be noted Clemente got his shorty
25:09
Speaker 5: nickname because he's four foot eleven, so not exactly you're threatening,
25:14
Speaker 5: imposing criminal, but.
25:16
Speaker 2: Also you have such a sort of a sweet gentle face.
25:19
Speaker 2: I mean like if I was three feet eleven, I
25:21
Speaker 2: wouldn't be scared of you, you know what I mean?
25:22
Speaker 3: Like right, So they bring me disinvestigator, and soon I
25:25
Speaker 3: tell him about the first victim. He started kissing me
25:29
Speaker 3: or rape. I know I didn't break nobody. I know
25:32
Speaker 3: I didn't kill nobody. So I told him, well, he
25:36
Speaker 3: mentioned something like, I don't need you to finish or
25:41
Speaker 3: have an orgasm in her. I just need you to
25:43
Speaker 3: penetrate her. And I got your DNA. I said, go
25:47
Speaker 3: for it. They my DNA because I know I'm mean acent.
25:53
Speaker 3: But there was a swap there. They took your fingernails,
25:55
Speaker 3: then my pingernails, and and she went to dig. I
25:59
Speaker 3: believe now nobody can take me out of these. She
26:02
Speaker 3: was trying to cut me.
26:03
Speaker 5: When they took his fingertiped swabs they do the scrapings,
26:06
Speaker 5: they like, jammed it under his nail.
26:08
Speaker 3: She went way too deep. So you can see it's
26:10
Speaker 3: like you have to describe a little bit. You don't
26:12
Speaker 3: have to go to deep. They always dishort always because
26:15
Speaker 3: I work in the kitchen, so you know, I'm always
26:18
Speaker 3: with sure nails and sure hair.
26:20
Speaker 2: Do you think they were trying to cut him?
26:22
Speaker 5: Because I think the perception that he tells the story
26:26
Speaker 5: was there was a lot of hatred and animosity from
26:28
Speaker 5: the police from the beginning towards him because he was
26:31
Speaker 5: not in this country legally, because they believed that he
26:35
Speaker 5: murdered these two women, one of them in a wheelchair,
26:38
Speaker 5: and so they just treated him.
26:39
Speaker 4: You know, this whole theme of the.
26:40
Speaker 5: Conference that we're attending is presumption of innocence, and there
26:43
Speaker 5: was none of that for Clemente.
26:45
Speaker 2: Right, And just for context, we're recording in a conference
26:48
Speaker 2: room in Atlanta where the Innocent Network conference is being held.
26:52
Speaker 2: So there's an amazing, amazing group here of over two
26:55
Speaker 2: hundred exgneries and hundreds of lawyers and social workers and activists,
27:02
Speaker 2: and it's an amazing, amazing place to be. And as
27:05
Speaker 2: you said, the theme is presumption of innocence, which is well,
27:09
Speaker 2: it's part of American jurisprudence. It's in the constitution, right,
27:13
Speaker 2: but it doesn't actually work the way it's supposed to,
27:16
Speaker 2: and certainly didn't in this case. So they interrogate you. You
27:19
Speaker 2: didn't have a lawyer with you at the time.
27:21
Speaker 3: At that moment in time, I say, and your lawyer right,
27:24
Speaker 3: do nothing.
27:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a common thing. I mean to be surprised.
27:28
Speaker 2: How many people, even people who grew up in America
27:30
Speaker 2: who maybe have higher education degrees or whatever, they think
27:34
Speaker 2: the same thing. Well, if I just go in and
27:35
Speaker 2: tell the truth. But when you get an adversarial situation
27:38
Speaker 2: like you were in, it changes very quickly and people
27:41
Speaker 2: are not expecting it. You had no reason to expect it.
27:44
Speaker 2: But that's exactly what happened. And so at what point
27:47
Speaker 2: did you become aware that you are now looking at
27:51
Speaker 2: the potential of being well arrested, tried, and convicted. I
27:55
Speaker 2: will even sentence to death.
27:57
Speaker 3: A wig later, they come and take my fingerprints and
28:00
Speaker 3: they told me they found my left pump print in
28:04
Speaker 3: the knife, which I say, it is impossible, and say,
28:08
Speaker 3: how come you touched the knife? Yeah, but I'm right handed.
28:13
Speaker 3: I'm not going to grab a knife with my left hand.
28:16
Speaker 3: So they charmed me with murder and they told me
28:20
Speaker 3: we're going to be asking for the death penalty. As
28:22
Speaker 3: the state asked for the dead penalty. Send you to
28:25
Speaker 3: death row.
28:27
Speaker 2: You've now been arrested you're locked up in the local jail.
28:30
Speaker 3: I assume, yeah, Seminal County.
28:32
Speaker 2: How long did it take from that point to go
28:34
Speaker 2: to trial?
28:35
Speaker 3: Twenty two months?
28:36
Speaker 2: So you're in jail for twenty two months, Yes.
28:38
Speaker 3: Sir, Seminal County jail and sam for got to be
28:42
Speaker 3: one of the most disgusting places to be at. The
28:46
Speaker 3: food is terrible because it's private, you see, Seminal County
28:51
Speaker 3: is private, so they run it the way they want to.
28:54
Speaker 3: They beat you up, They put you in a place
28:55
Speaker 3: where it's the camera. They beat you up in anything and.
28:59
Speaker 2: All that happened to you what happened to me? Because
29:03
Speaker 2: you were the most notorious guy in the jail at
29:07
Speaker 2: this time, right, your name is in the paper. You're
29:09
Speaker 2: accused of a double murder or an illegal immigrant. You've
29:12
Speaker 2: got the whole, you.
29:13
Speaker 3: Know, because of this brown little guy who apparently killed
29:18
Speaker 3: two white people. By the time I got taken the trial,
29:24
Speaker 3: I was found guilty in one hour fifteen minutes maybe
29:29
Speaker 3: the jury the jury user.
29:31
Speaker 2: The jury was out for an hour and fifteen minutes.
29:33
Speaker 3: The trial last maybe four or five days, I mean
29:36
Speaker 3: the criminal trial. The sentence in like another four days
29:41
Speaker 3: aroun there.
29:42
Speaker 5: In Florida, the penalty phase in the guilt phase or separate.
29:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's two different trial basically.
29:47
Speaker 2: So who represented you a trial?
29:49
Speaker 3: The public Defender's officer Seminal County.
29:53
Speaker 2: And did they mount any kind of a defense?
29:58
Speaker 3: No, whats whoever?
29:59
Speaker 2: No defense?
30:00
Speaker 3: They did present a case on my he did it
30:04
Speaker 3: because he drunk. He did it because he did he didn't.
30:06
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't do nothing. You're trying to kill
30:09
Speaker 3: me for something I didn't do. I didn't do nothing.
30:12
Speaker 3: I am not going to take this to me. It
30:14
Speaker 3: was no conceivable that I am going to accept you
30:19
Speaker 3: calling me a killer. And I'm there and I'm not
30:21
Speaker 3: going to stand up and call you a liar, even
30:25
Speaker 3: you my attorney. I don't care. I didn't do nothing,
30:29
Speaker 3: So you don't believe me after you he never believed me.
30:31
Speaker 2: Man.
30:32
Speaker 3: He didn't talk to nobody. I wasn't about until three
30:34
Speaker 3: third in the morning with like thirty two people. He
30:37
Speaker 3: didn't talk to no one of them.
30:38
Speaker 6: What you were wiping, I wasn't a bar before we
30:42
Speaker 6: went to my friend's house, the three todd in the morning,
30:46
Speaker 6: because back then they were saying I did a crying
30:48
Speaker 6: three something in the morning.
30:50
Speaker 3: You see, then they changed it to early in the morning.
30:53
Speaker 5: They never really were able to pin down the time
30:56
Speaker 5: of death because they were relying on Samantha and Mark
30:58
Speaker 5: Benzan who said they saw the last alive at about
31:01
Speaker 5: eleven thirty.
31:02
Speaker 4: And then they were found by Mark VanZant at nine.
31:05
Speaker 5: So the state was never able to really pin down
31:08
Speaker 5: the time of death, so they just fit it to
31:10
Speaker 5: the time when Clemente had said he went in there,
31:12
Speaker 5: but he did have a solid alibi until three thirty
31:16
Speaker 5: in the morning. He was at a local bar. It
31:18
Speaker 5: was actually me who went into that bar for the
31:21
Speaker 5: first time in probably two thousand and ten or so.
31:26
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just inmfathomable to me that as a
31:28
Speaker 5: criminal defense attorney, your client tells you where they were,
31:31
Speaker 5: you know, in the preceding twenty four hours, and you
31:33
Speaker 5: don't even walk into the bar to see, like, hey,
31:36
Speaker 5: was he here? Is there anybody that we can talk to?
31:39
Speaker 5: And I mean when I went in in twenty ten,
31:41
Speaker 5: so this is mindjew six years after the murder, it
31:44
Speaker 5: was a Saturday morning. I went in with my investigator
31:47
Speaker 5: and kind of like sat down at the bars, maybe
31:49
Speaker 5: eleven thirty.
31:50
Speaker 4: We didn't tell anyone we were coming.
31:51
Speaker 5: We just went and the bartenders like, you know, can
31:55
Speaker 5: I help you? And we said, you know, we're looking
31:57
Speaker 5: for Bob Buntruck, who was the owner. She said, oh,
32:00
Speaker 5: he's not here, you know, can I help you? I said, well,
32:02
Speaker 5: I represent Clemente Gary And it was like time stood still.
32:05
Speaker 5: I thought she was going to drop the glass she
32:06
Speaker 5: was holding. She was like, thank God, somebody is finally
32:10
Speaker 5: helping him. I know he didn't do it. And to
32:13
Speaker 5: walk into a place six years later and get that
32:17
Speaker 5: kind of reaction for me as the lawyer handling his
32:19
Speaker 5: case was just stunning. And she gave us a treasure
32:22
Speaker 5: troes of information that actually led us to who ultimately
32:26
Speaker 5: is the actual piller in this case.
32:28
Speaker 2: So yeah, and that's I'm getting the chill just thinking
32:30
Speaker 2: about that. What a moment. It's very cinematic the way
32:32
Speaker 2: you described it, But yeah, I mean it must have
32:34
Speaker 2: really weighed on the people who knew you and knew
32:37
Speaker 2: that you didn't do it. To be walking around with
32:39
Speaker 2: that knowledge and yet knowing that you're on death row.
32:43
Speaker 4: And felt helpless.
32:44
Speaker 5: You know, there was no avenue for them because there
32:46
Speaker 5: was no investigation by either the prosecution or the defense.
32:49
Speaker 5: I mean, it was just a complete collapse of the
32:52
Speaker 5: adversarial system.
32:52
Speaker 3: This particular lady who talked to her name is Jamie,
32:56
Speaker 3: and she was the street almost in front of Samantha's
33:02
Speaker 3: house until fight something in the morning, and I haven't
33:05
Speaker 3: make it home yet.
33:06
Speaker 5: Yeah, so she actually ended up alibying him until you know,
33:11
Speaker 5: five point thirty or and sort of aliby in the
33:13
Speaker 5: house until then.
33:13
Speaker 3: Because I haven't made home yet. She was from Peter.
33:17
Speaker 3: There's some peace, so Peter used to leave him from
33:19
Speaker 3: a Samantha Williams house, so she stayed there with him,
33:22
Speaker 3: having a couple of dreams that night. And I'm still
33:25
Speaker 3: on my friend's house with all the two friends. I
33:27
Speaker 3: haven't make it home yet.
33:28
Speaker 5: But the state just fit their time of death with
33:32
Speaker 5: the time he said he went in the house. Once
33:33
Speaker 5: he said he went in the house, they just had
33:35
Speaker 5: tunnel vision and that was it. They just fit all
33:37
Speaker 5: their evidence to comply with that.
33:40
Speaker 2: Wow. And we're going to get into Samantha in a minute,
33:42
Speaker 2: because this is one of those cases, and there's probably
33:46
Speaker 2: a dozen, maybe that we profiled on the show, where
33:49
Speaker 2: all the signs were there that would have led even
33:52
Speaker 2: a cursory investigation to focus on someone else, but it
33:59
Speaker 2: was not necessary because they already had somebody that they wanted.
34:02
Speaker 2: They had somebody who was an easy target, and also
34:05
Speaker 2: somebody that apparently they didn't like, because they didn't like
34:08
Speaker 2: the fact that you were here illegally or whatever their
34:10
Speaker 2: personal biases were, you know. And it's worth noting too
34:13
Speaker 2: that in a case like this, because it's such a
34:16
Speaker 2: terrible violent crime, the idea that they would allow the
34:22
Speaker 2: perpetrator to remain free just so they can close the
34:26
Speaker 2: case and you put your life, you know, which they
34:30
Speaker 2: viewed as expendable, apparently, it's really another very serious thing
34:34
Speaker 2: to look at, right, I mean, the people in that
34:36
Speaker 2: community were in danger. They still are, right, And let's
34:39
Speaker 2: talk about that. Because Samantha, the daughter whose mother and
34:43
Speaker 2: grandmother were killed, she had been in and out of
34:47
Speaker 2: mental institutions dozens of times, right.
34:50
Speaker 5: In the upwards of like sixty I think she said
34:52
Speaker 5: at the post conviction hearing she was Baker acted, which
34:55
Speaker 5: is Florida's involuntary mental health commitment sixty times.
34:59
Speaker 2: Six is zero, that is, folks, right, So I mean
35:03
Speaker 2: that's a full on revolving door in and out of
35:05
Speaker 2: mental institution. And the fact is that, as I understand it,
35:10
Speaker 2: she actually vocalized her plan when she was in the
35:13
Speaker 2: mental institution. She said that she was going to do
35:15
Speaker 2: this right in front of other people. Yeah, there was
35:17
Speaker 2: a she announced.
35:18
Speaker 5: It a couple of years before the murders on one
35:20
Speaker 5: of her Baker acts. She had to be restrained because
35:22
Speaker 5: she was so violent in the hospital, kicking, spitting, throwing things,
35:26
Speaker 5: And she said, with her mother right next to her,
35:28
Speaker 5: I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I
35:30
Speaker 5: get out.
35:31
Speaker 2: I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I
35:33
Speaker 2: get out. And I guess she should have taken her
35:36
Speaker 2: a little more seriously, and then we wouldn't be sitting
35:40
Speaker 2: and having this conversation at all. And in fact, we
35:43
Speaker 2: know now too that her biological evidence was found all
35:47
Speaker 2: over the clime scene right, not just because she lived
35:49
Speaker 2: there part time, but because she had actually done these
35:54
Speaker 2: gruesome deeds and then left her own blood for.
35:59
Speaker 5: Some eight separate blod stands within inches of the victim's
36:02
Speaker 5: blood throughout the trailer.
36:04
Speaker 4: None of Clement's DNA.
36:06
Speaker 3: So I always thought I stand up in court before
36:11
Speaker 3: my trial and asked for the DNA to be testing.
36:14
Speaker 3: They just told me, I need to be a specific.
36:17
Speaker 3: I don't know what is specific me. I thought, it's
36:19
Speaker 3: a crime scene. You're gonna investigate, You're gonna test everything,
36:22
Speaker 3: because this is when I interact with the Innery Project.
36:26
Speaker 3: And they asked me, what do you want us to tell?
36:28
Speaker 3: I say everything, everything, her nails, the cheats, everything. So
36:36
Speaker 3: it was one hundred and ninety seven pieces of evidence
36:38
Speaker 3: with blood which nobody tells ever so pictured yourself accused
36:46
Speaker 3: of a crime, which have so many pieces the evidence
36:50
Speaker 3: to be testing for DNA neither to stay or you
36:53
Speaker 3: attorney tested, and you asked the George vocally, please made
36:58
Speaker 3: my attorney tested, and he said, you need to be specific.
37:02
Speaker 3: Why would I be specific? Test everything? Right? I want
37:07
Speaker 3: to prove that I didn't do it. Maybe the killer
37:09
Speaker 3: left something behind. It was always always my argument, you
37:14
Speaker 3: are not going to find my blood there because I
37:16
Speaker 3: didn't do it. If you test them, maybe you find
37:20
Speaker 3: something else. Right. The accusume or rape, the accuracyme of killing,
37:24
Speaker 3: the acacimea, all of these things. I'm for eleven. If
37:28
Speaker 3: I stab somebody one hundred and twenty nine times, I
37:30
Speaker 3: ain't going to have this splatter blood all over. No
37:34
Speaker 3: one drop or splatter blooding me. Everything is contact. Like
37:39
Speaker 3: I say, it was my footprint on a round chair
37:42
Speaker 3: that are fall down. A mirror was done and it's
37:49
Speaker 3: not a footprint under it, it's on top of it.
37:53
Speaker 3: They found her d NA that mirror, she saying trout
37:55
Speaker 3: that mirror was on the wall when she left. But
37:59
Speaker 3: they found her blo ain't her fingerprint? No mind, so
38:08
Speaker 3: they didn't. There's nothing. So here I go to death
38:22
Speaker 3: row no English beat up. They batting me up all
38:26
Speaker 3: the time because I don't speak English, and that row
38:30
Speaker 3: ye no no. The emails the guards because they thought
38:37
Speaker 3: I was acting, so they thought it by beating me up,
38:42
Speaker 3: I will speak English. So I started taking newspapers from
38:48
Speaker 3: guard which to start reading. I don't know what I
38:50
Speaker 3: was reading. And then I asked for a Bible because
38:53
Speaker 3: I got a Bible in Spanish, you see. So I say,
38:57
Speaker 3: maybe with a Bible in English I can translate, it's
38:59
Speaker 3: going to be more easier for me. And they sent
39:02
Speaker 3: me a Penhouse letter Book, number four, four hundred and
39:06
Speaker 3: seventeen pages, Penhouse letter Book. It's a foot book, you see.
39:13
Speaker 3: I didn't know. I didn't know what it was.
39:15
Speaker 7: The other inmates so we asked for a Bible because
39:19
Speaker 7: you want to learn English, and the other inmates, I
39:22
Speaker 7: guess thought it would be funny or I'm not really sure,
39:25
Speaker 7: but that's how that's what.
39:26
Speaker 3: They give him Penhouse Letter Book number four. So that's
39:30
Speaker 3: what I got. That's what I started reading. So I
39:33
Speaker 3: stay at night when it was quiet and there was
39:36
Speaker 3: no light. That's why my eyes I all missed up.
39:38
Speaker 3: Now and I gave the light from the hallway, and
39:44
Speaker 3: I got a bat up dictionary in Spanish and English,
39:46
Speaker 3: and I will go there and I will go with
39:48
Speaker 3: the letters. I read it seventeen times, the book, the
39:54
Speaker 3: fuck book.
39:54
Speaker 4: Yes, so I taught himself English.
39:57
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
39:58
Speaker 3: But that seventeen time, I'm start getting a roused. And
40:05
Speaker 3: I got so happy. Not because I got a roused,
40:08
Speaker 3: you know. I got so happy because I got roused
40:11
Speaker 3: because I wasn't understanding what I was reading. But now
40:15
Speaker 3: I want to prove to my mother that I didn't
40:16
Speaker 3: do this. And I started writing letters. One hundred and
40:20
Speaker 3: seventy five letters I wrote. I roll oprah. I said,
40:26
Speaker 3: I don't know who you are, but they telling me
40:27
Speaker 3: you they could not television. Maybe you know somebody who
40:30
Speaker 3: can teach this evidence. They turney came me for something
40:33
Speaker 3: I didn't do, and next to it, I would put
40:35
Speaker 3: a letter in Spanish too, so it was somebody who
40:38
Speaker 3: speaks Spanish in my English that bad. They can translate it.
40:44
Speaker 3: One answer me bad. Innocent Projic of New York in
40:48
Speaker 3: Amerson from the Innocent Projects. And I got to meet Maria.
40:55
Speaker 3: Remember I just have a polic defender. I didn't never
40:57
Speaker 3: have a private attorney. I don't know what it's like.
41:00
Speaker 3: And she told me she would never lie to me,
41:03
Speaker 3: and that she will work hard, and that she thought
41:05
Speaker 3: it was something wrong in my case. They got some
41:09
Speaker 3: people were working and they would push for DNA. They
41:12
Speaker 3: allow us to test eighty two pieces of evidence.
41:14
Speaker 5: First, the first time there was two drops of Samantha's blood,
41:18
Speaker 5: and then we asked for the rest. Of course, the
41:21
Speaker 5: state agreed to blood the first time, and then once
41:24
Speaker 5: Samantha's blood came back and they had evidence of her
41:27
Speaker 5: confessions which they withheld from us for anywhere from around
41:30
Speaker 5: two years or maybe longer, hard to say, they objected
41:33
Speaker 5: to any more testing. After two drops of her blood
41:35
Speaker 5: come back. She's admitted that she's killed her family. They
41:39
Speaker 5: object to more DNA testing, but it was granted, thankfully.
41:43
Speaker 2: And she confessed on a number of occasions to a
41:45
Speaker 2: number of different people.
41:46
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's somewhere around seven or nine. But
41:49
Speaker 5: this first one was a Baker act, one of her
41:52
Speaker 5: many Baker acts, where she had tried to burn the
41:55
Speaker 5: trailer down and sort of set herself on fire. She
41:57
Speaker 5: was like, set some bedding on fire, and she told
42:00
Speaker 5: a neighbor who told the police that demons in her
42:02
Speaker 5: head had made her kill her family.
42:04
Speaker 3: She told her best friend Nikki, and two separate occasions
42:09
Speaker 3: did she her mother When Nikki asked her, what did
42:12
Speaker 3: you do? I heard them doing any stubbing motion to
42:17
Speaker 3: her chest. Had grab my guy's tab in the chest.
42:21
Speaker 3: According to the medical coach Saminar So, I never see
42:28
Speaker 3: this woman named Nikki in my life. I don't know her.
42:32
Speaker 3: She came forward to stay attorney and they send her back.
42:36
Speaker 2: So they didn't want to hear it.
42:37
Speaker 3: Oh, they don't want to hear it. They say they
42:39
Speaker 3: got the killer. But she contacted my defense attorneys and
42:43
Speaker 3: told them too. She testified it first conviction.
42:47
Speaker 2: Here. Kurus to her for not giving up right because
42:51
Speaker 2: it would have been pretty easy for her to go
42:52
Speaker 2: to the police and say I want to talk and
42:54
Speaker 2: they say no, and then she goes, well, I try
42:56
Speaker 2: my best. What am I going to do? Right? But
42:58
Speaker 2: she actually took it to the next level type of view.
43:00
Speaker 3: Yeah.
43:01
Speaker 4: And we had been piecing it together who she was
43:03
Speaker 4: based on the.
43:03
Speaker 5: Police report because we could tell that's who the person
43:07
Speaker 5: was in the statement that Samantha had made.
43:09
Speaker 4: The statement to.
43:10
Speaker 2: So now they start trying to backpedal, right now, all
43:13
Speaker 2: of a sudden, they're like, wait a minute, We're going
43:15
Speaker 2: to stop cooperating and stop giving you access. Yes, And
43:18
Speaker 2: that's when the dream team really kicks into gear, right.
43:21
Speaker 2: I mean you had not just you and Nina, but
43:22
Speaker 2: Josh Dubin. Yeah.
43:24
Speaker 4: So that was at the retrial.
43:25
Speaker 5: So the post conviction hearing was done just by myself
43:28
Speaker 5: and Marie Palmer, who's my law partner now in our
43:31
Speaker 5: investigator Polly, and then Nina came down for the first
43:33
Speaker 5: two days of the evidentiary hearing in twenty thirteen. That
43:36
Speaker 5: was a two week hearing that we put on tons
43:39
Speaker 5: and tons of witnesses, all the DNA, all of the confessions,
43:43
Speaker 5: and then we lost, of course at the circuit court
43:45
Speaker 5: level and.
43:46
Speaker 4: We knew that.
43:48
Speaker 5: We always had the idea of getting a bigger team
43:52
Speaker 5: on this case. You know, it's one thing when lawyers
43:54
Speaker 5: from my office at the time, you know, stand up
43:56
Speaker 5: before the flour Spring Court and say this is a travesty.
43:59
Speaker 5: It's quite another when we get the Innocence Project and
44:01
Speaker 5: private law firms and you know, people really fighting for this.
44:04
Speaker 4: It makes a difference.
44:05
Speaker 5: So that was always our plan, and Nina was of
44:07
Speaker 5: course amazing and instrumental in getting us help. So we
44:11
Speaker 5: got lawyers from Alabama to do the appeal with us.
44:14
Speaker 4: They did the appeal at the flour Spring Court.
44:16
Speaker 5: We all worked on it and we got the reversal
44:18
Speaker 5: in twenty sixteen, and that's when sort of the trial
44:21
Speaker 5: team really came back together. And so my role sort
44:25
Speaker 5: of formally ended in twenty sixteen, and then I just
44:28
Speaker 5: consulted with the trial team and talked to Clemente every
44:31
Speaker 5: Sunday for two and a half years while he was
44:33
Speaker 5: waiting his retrial.
44:35
Speaker 3: Well, let me tell you something. We have a DNA
44:38
Speaker 3: a confession for the perpetrator who DNA was found in
44:41
Speaker 3: the crime seat, which she said she wasn't there. Red
44:44
Speaker 3: Fresh Red Bright and then we have a judge. We
44:50
Speaker 3: have a judge who keep denying. Now, we don't understand
44:54
Speaker 3: what these judge followed the law. Right later we find
44:57
Speaker 3: out that she's got detagenda against me, using my case
45:00
Speaker 3: to get a promotion. She had stayed a sixty seventh
45:03
Speaker 3: page drueling against me and brag about it.
45:06
Speaker 2: So she was trying to get elevated.
45:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, and used his case, used my case about it.
45:12
Speaker 4: Yeah.
45:12
Speaker 5: She eventually was recused and did not preside over the retrial.
45:16
Speaker 5: That's when Josh came on, Josh Stephens. He did the
45:19
Speaker 5: jury selection and in front of her first time in
45:21
Speaker 5: February of twenty eighteen, and her complete lack of knowledge
45:26
Speaker 5: of the law. I mean, Josh just pointed it out
45:30
Speaker 5: and we were able to recuse her from the case.
45:33
Speaker 5: And then the trial started in October of twenty eighteen
45:37
Speaker 5: with quite a team Josh picking the jury, Maury Parmer,
45:40
Speaker 5: who's my law partner, Lindsay Bonie, Dylan Blackbrooks, Proctor, I mean,
45:45
Speaker 5: just Jeff Horowitz. There was like, at one point Clemente said,
45:49
Speaker 5: what did you tell them?
45:50
Speaker 3: Oh man? It was it was too many or them right,
45:52
Speaker 3: And I'm like heyo, y'all making me look bad right here.
45:55
Speaker 3: Some of you need to go see down the bag,
45:57
Speaker 3: you know, I.
45:58
Speaker 4: Said some of them on the prosecution to make sure.
46:00
Speaker 3: That it was too many to me, I don't want
46:03
Speaker 3: to look like, why this guy got so many Lowyoh
46:06
Speaker 3: he got money. He might have done it, so I
46:08
Speaker 3: don't want them to think like that. Ever.
46:11
Speaker 2: Wow, you went from having too little help to us.
46:13
Speaker 2: Well you were thinking too much help. But it was
46:15
Speaker 2: not the case. And Josh is an amazing guy. I mean,
46:18
Speaker 2: it's funny because Nina originally introduced us I don't know
46:21
Speaker 2: whatever a couple three years ago, and he says to me,
46:26
Speaker 2: you know, I'm a church selection expert. I go, yeah,
46:28
Speaker 2: he goes, I can look in your eyes and see
46:30
Speaker 2: your soul. I was like, so, you know, he's a guy.
46:36
Speaker 2: Here's that guy. He's amazing. Yeah. And he was keeping
46:39
Speaker 2: me posted. Then when he was down there at Florida, Argua,
46:41
Speaker 2: we were talking and he was giving me the updates
46:43
Speaker 2: and he was really Yeah. It was a very intense time,
46:47
Speaker 2: even for me watching from the sidelines from a thousand
46:50
Speaker 2: miles away. So let's get to the good stuff.
46:53
Speaker 3: Okay.
46:54
Speaker 2: So then finally your conviction is overturned.
46:58
Speaker 3: On now October twenty seven.
47:01
Speaker 2: But they kept you on death row anyway.
47:02
Speaker 3: Until and then back to the county, back to the
47:05
Speaker 3: county jail.
47:06
Speaker 2: Right. And it's amazing because you know, I talked to
47:09
Speaker 2: give speeches a lot, and I talked to civilians all
47:11
Speaker 2: the time about this work and about cases like yours,
47:14
Speaker 2: and almost everyone says, but I understand, the convictions overturn,
47:19
Speaker 2: you go home.
47:20
Speaker 3: That's not the way it works.
47:22
Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes it is, but in your case it
47:24
Speaker 2: certainly was not. And the conviction was overturned. They're going
47:26
Speaker 2: to retry you because they didn't like losing.
47:28
Speaker 3: Right. Oh, immediately they say same day, yeah, same day,
47:32
Speaker 3: they say, we are going to retry the case.
47:35
Speaker 5: I mean, this was a unanimous reversal from the floor
47:37
Speaker 5: Spreme Court in which the opinion said, no longer is
47:40
Speaker 5: a Gary, the creepy, shadowy figure who lived next door.
47:43
Speaker 5: He's escapegoat for her crimes. That's seven justices of the
47:48
Speaker 5: Flora Supreme Court calling Samantha the murderer and they're still
47:53
Speaker 5: trying him again.
47:54
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yeah, I mean this is seven justices in
47:57
Speaker 2: the Deep South. Yeah, with a guy who doesn't have
48:01
Speaker 2: the same skin color as they do. I mean they're
48:03
Speaker 2: saying and in the strongest possible way, that this is
48:06
Speaker 2: not your crime, that this is a huge mistake. You
48:10
Speaker 2: heard those words. How did that feel?
48:11
Speaker 5: So the prison doesn't allow They require twenty four hour
48:14
Speaker 5: notice for calls, so we couldn't even tell him until
48:16
Speaker 5: the next day. So opinions come out every Thursday. At
48:19
Speaker 5: eleven opinion came out. We knew we couldn't get a
48:21
Speaker 5: call to him, but we also knew it was going
48:23
Speaker 5: to be on the news, and so I know, I
48:25
Speaker 5: didn't interview. I think Lindsay did too, And I was like, well, Monday.
48:28
Speaker 7: If you're listening, congratulations, because we were going to get
48:31
Speaker 7: to talk to him until the next day.
48:32
Speaker 4: But guys on the road heard it.
48:34
Speaker 3: They told me, yeah, hey, Tody, they're banging on the
48:38
Speaker 3: bars and what I think you want to trial? I said,
48:41
Speaker 3: hold on, man, don't play like that because it's too
48:43
Speaker 3: it's too soon. It was six months, twenty days, so
48:47
Speaker 3: they take twenty two months in answering and don't play
48:50
Speaker 3: like that. Man. You know that's not funny. I'm serious, man.
48:53
Speaker 3: They say a funny name like your like by name,
48:56
Speaker 3: like the one you have. So hey, listen up my
48:59
Speaker 3: name to say somebody say, Jody want a new trial.
49:02
Speaker 3: Everybody go to the news and trying to find it.
49:06
Speaker 3: And I got a frame named Alex Alex Pagan who say, yeah,
49:11
Speaker 3: it's the Ogani pace in seven point four and we
49:13
Speaker 3: went there and they were saying, I got a I won't.
49:18
Speaker 2: We have limited time left. But in the time that
49:21
Speaker 2: we do have, I want to get to the ultimate victory. Right.
49:25
Speaker 2: So they immediately announce they're going to retry you. They're
49:28
Speaker 2: not done fucking with you yet. I can't think of
49:31
Speaker 2: a better way to say that. But now you've got
49:34
Speaker 2: the dream team, like we said, and you go for
49:35
Speaker 2: the new trial, and you want to take this one.
49:39
Speaker 5: Sure, we start in November. We had sort of a
49:41
Speaker 5: fall start in February. We ended up getting rid of
49:44
Speaker 5: the judge who was clearly biased against him. We started
49:47
Speaker 5: start in October with the new chief judge, incredibly fair,
49:50
Speaker 5: promised both sides of fair trial, and totally delivered.
49:53
Speaker 4: Jury selection is ongoing.
49:55
Speaker 5: Josh is picking the jury to critical in court depositions
50:00
Speaker 5: heard that really sort of crumbled.
50:02
Speaker 4: The States case.
50:03
Speaker 5: One was the ex wife of Mark Van Zant, who
50:06
Speaker 5: discovered the bodies. Two of our lawyers, Mary Palmer and
50:09
Speaker 5: Dylan Black, went to meet with her. She gave a
50:13
Speaker 5: remarkable story in an Affidavid that Mark had always told
50:16
Speaker 5: her that Samantha went out the window that night, the
50:18
Speaker 5: night of the murders. He had always alibied her, always
50:20
Speaker 5: said that she was with him all night. Turns out
50:23
Speaker 5: he was a liar. We had listened to about twelve
50:26
Speaker 5: hundred of his jail calls over the summer in which
50:28
Speaker 5: he admitted that he was a liar. Mary Palmer did
50:31
Speaker 5: an in court deposition of Mark that was just masterful.
50:34
Speaker 5: It was like the climactic scene of a movie where
50:37
Speaker 5: he basically just admitted that he was a pathological liar
50:40
Speaker 5: and his credibility was done. And the second one was
50:43
Speaker 5: Josh did a deposition of Samantha in court where she
50:46
Speaker 5: effectively said, I do a lot of things when I'm drunk.
50:49
Speaker 5: I guess it's possible I did this too, and.
50:52
Speaker 4: I don't remember.
50:53
Speaker 5: So between the actual murderer admitting hunder oath that she
50:58
Speaker 5: maybe committed this crime and her alibi witness admitting that
51:02
Speaker 5: he was a pathological liar and that she had gone
51:04
Speaker 5: out the window that night their case was done.
51:11
Speaker 2: Were you in the courtroom when you were finally found
51:14
Speaker 2: to be yes, I was.
51:17
Speaker 3: I was numb. Ah, I pray. I always think God
51:22
Speaker 3: all win. And to me it was like had about experience.
51:26
Speaker 3: You know, I lois looking at myself and I'm always
51:30
Speaker 3: going to remember these I looking at me saying it over.
51:35
Speaker 4: Finally jury came in no, so the state actually announced.
51:40
Speaker 2: No prosper nol pross, which is short for a Latin
51:44
Speaker 2: term that translates to quote, we shall no longer prosecute.
51:49
Speaker 5: They announced nor pross. We didn't know what they were
51:51
Speaker 5: going to do. They had asked for extra time to
51:53
Speaker 5: think about it. Turns out they were getting an immigration
51:55
Speaker 5: hold put on him because they had never bothered to
51:57
Speaker 5: do that in the fourteen years that he was locked up,
52:00
Speaker 5: so that you know, he couldn't actually walk free from
52:02
Speaker 5: the courtroom, which we were able to rectify later getting
52:05
Speaker 5: him an immigration bond. So they had to put the
52:07
Speaker 5: icehold on it. But we still didn't know what they
52:08
Speaker 5: were going to do. We didn't know if they were
52:09
Speaker 5: going to continue to go forward. And they came in
52:12
Speaker 5: the courtroom was full.
52:14
Speaker 4: We were all sitting there.
52:15
Speaker 5: Nina flew down or like you got to come. We
52:16
Speaker 5: think they're going to drop it. I mean they had
52:19
Speaker 5: no way forward. Really, the state stood up and announced
52:22
Speaker 5: a nol pross and I know I crumbled into a ball,
52:26
Speaker 5: I think, almost on the floor. I couldn't believe it.
52:29
Speaker 5: And the judge was so kind and kind of gave
52:31
Speaker 5: everybody a minute. I went up and hugged Clemente and
52:34
Speaker 5: we were all hugging, and then he wanted to speak.
52:38
Speaker 2: And you remember what you said? Yeah, what'd you say?
52:41
Speaker 3: I say, God send you angles so you feed, don't
52:46
Speaker 3: hear from us, and you angered. You have called upon me.
52:50
Speaker 3: And if I hear you, I will free you and
52:54
Speaker 3: I will glorify you. I will give you many years
52:57
Speaker 3: of life and I will show you my salvation. And
53:03
Speaker 3: it sounds ninety one, fourteen, fifteen and sixteen. I think
53:08
Speaker 3: everybody will help me out. The ones who send me money.
53:11
Speaker 3: They want to make me look like a human being.
53:14
Speaker 3: And I say, you don't have an enemy in me
53:18
Speaker 3: from this humble legal immigrant. If I can forgive somebody,
53:21
Speaker 3: I forget whoever, don't drunk me because I want to
53:26
Speaker 3: live a better life.
53:30
Speaker 2: Wow, So I have one more question and then we're
53:33
Speaker 2: going to wrap up. I think I already know the
53:35
Speaker 2: answer to this question, but I'm going to ask anyway,
53:37
Speaker 2: are you better about what happened to you?
53:42
Speaker 3: Angry? Better? Angry? Is what you ask?
53:45
Speaker 2: Better? Yeah? Better angry? Ye, it's sort of a similar thing.
53:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, somehow I think it's an injustice. This is I
53:54
Speaker 3: know it's an injustice. Yeah, I can say I angry,
54:01
Speaker 3: but I'm not hateful. You know. A long time ago,
54:05
Speaker 3: I let that go because what's killing me. So the
54:09
Speaker 3: way I see it now is I just try to adjust, man,
54:13
Speaker 3: and I get aggravated for things, maybe because I got
54:16
Speaker 3: stoked so many years ago. But I know I'm gonna
54:19
Speaker 3: get better. It will, it has to be.
54:23
Speaker 2: I have to lead it, and it is. And it's
54:28
Speaker 2: great to see you here. I almost when you were
54:30
Speaker 2: talking about breaking down the corner when I was broke
54:31
Speaker 2: down myself at to get a little lump in my throat.
54:35
Speaker 2: So the tradition here at Wrongful Conviction is that at
54:39
Speaker 2: the end of each episode, first thing I do is
54:42
Speaker 2: thank you both for coming and being here. Thank you
54:46
Speaker 2: having Aria and of course Shorty. And then my favorite
54:50
Speaker 2: part of the show is this, because this is the
54:52
Speaker 2: part of the show where I get to stop talking
54:55
Speaker 2: and just listen. And so I would like to now
54:59
Speaker 2: turn it over to you for any final thoughts that
55:03
Speaker 2: you have. Again, thanks for being here and for everything
55:06
Speaker 2: that you're doing, and I wish you, you know, all
55:09
Speaker 2: the happiness in the world. And so Maria, why don't
55:12
Speaker 2: you go first, and then Shorty you can close.
55:15
Speaker 5: Sure, thank you so much for having us and for
55:17
Speaker 5: drawing attention to this case, and you know, obviously very
55:20
Speaker 5: important cause overall, I mean, I think just for the listeners,
55:25
Speaker 5: you know, like you said, if they end up on
55:27
Speaker 5: jurys like really listen, hold the state to their burden.
55:32
Speaker 5: But also when the exoneration happens and all the happiness happens.
55:37
Speaker 5: You know, Clemente has a life to live and he's
55:39
Speaker 5: trying to piece his life back together, and it's especially
55:41
Speaker 5: hard for him because he's not allowed to work right
55:44
Speaker 5: now because his immigration case is ongoing. You know, he's
55:49
Speaker 5: fortunate for the benefits and the donations of others, and
55:52
Speaker 5: that's something that we continue to rely on. So I
55:54
Speaker 5: know that Innocence Project is going to do some fundraisers
55:56
Speaker 5: for him. He does some speaking and people give him
56:00
Speaker 5: donations for that. Unfortunately, he and I get to spend
56:03
Speaker 5: He lives three miles from my house now in a
56:05
Speaker 5: community for ex Houneries, so we see each other every
56:08
Speaker 5: week for laundry and groceries. But you know, any kind
56:11
Speaker 5: of donations that listeners are willing to do, we'll have
56:15
Speaker 5: that set up pretty quickly. Just really supporting xuoneries. It's
56:19
Speaker 5: great to do events like this conference that we're at,
56:21
Speaker 5: but making sure that you know, after the dust settles
56:24
Speaker 5: and their home, we continue to support them.
56:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for having me. Just taking back from there,
56:36
Speaker 3: Yu get out is not enough there for you know,
56:39
Speaker 3: after so many years incarcerated and almost everybody turned back
56:44
Speaker 3: when you family members, loves friends going away. We need medical,
56:50
Speaker 3: we need dental, you know, the mental health. But I
56:58
Speaker 3: always remember the three sides of the story, hers and
57:04
Speaker 3: the truth. They don't test evidence. I mean, they don't
57:08
Speaker 3: want to find out the truth. And that's simple. If
57:10
Speaker 3: it defended is so adamant to test the evidence. And
57:12
Speaker 3: you an attorney at there, and you client asking you
57:16
Speaker 3: to please test the evidence, maybe you should listen to him.
57:19
Speaker 3: He might be telling you the truth. So thank you
57:22
Speaker 3: for listening, and God bless you all.
57:31
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
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Speaker 2: production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
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Speaker 2: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Watis, and Jeff Clibern.
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Speaker 2: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
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